Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. We have something special
Speaker 3: for you this evening, folks, a sprawling tale of true crime,
Speaker 3: corruption and conspiracy, originating with oddly enough, one of the
Speaker 3: key figures meant to help enact the law. This story
Speaker 3: is so wild that we had to go straight to
Speaker 3: the source to learn more, and so we are over
Speaker 3: the moon to be joined with tonight's special guest, the
Speaker 3: award winning journalist, host, writer, podcaster you've heard him orceived
Speaker 3: him in everything, the man at the helm of the
Speaker 3: new podcast, criminal attorney Brandon Jinks Jenkins Jinks, thanks so
Speaker 3: much for coming on the show today.
Speaker 4: What's up, y'all? What an intro? I love that, Thank
Speaker 4: you all for having me.
Speaker 2: Ben's great at this oh Man We're so excited to
Speaker 2: talk to you, Jinks. We've been listening to Criminal Attorney. Look,
Speaker 2: this is just spoiler on my part. I haven't heard
Speaker 2: the final episode yet, so I'm all the way up
Speaker 2: to five okay, and I am I got questions about
Speaker 2: the end. I don't know how much we're going to
Speaker 2: spoil about the show, because everybody can go listen to
Speaker 2: Criminal Attorney, right, I.
Speaker 5: Need to issue a spoiler alert if you do choose.
Speaker 3: To True Yeah, truell countdown from EDA again.
Speaker 2: Okay, but before we get into anything, if you don't mind,
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell
Speaker 2: us how you got into this story.
Speaker 4: Man. Okay, it's funny. I'm back here in Atlanta from
Speaker 4: my school's homecoming, so a lot of friends are like, now,
Speaker 4: talk to me about it. And admittedly I was not
Speaker 4: aware of how wide and like just how big of
Speaker 4: an audience true crime is. Like, you know, you might
Speaker 4: be into like rap music, you might be into pop music,
Speaker 4: you might be into basketball, soccer or whatever, but it
Speaker 4: seems like everyone is into true crime, which probably says
Speaker 4: a lot about us as people. But anyways, yeah, so
Speaker 4: it's been interesting because people like, how'd you get here.
Speaker 4: So I guess you can say, like my career of
Speaker 4: doing this started like I don't know, man, maybe like
Speaker 4: a decade ago, and I was just like a blogger
Speaker 4: add a magazine called mass Appeal, so they used to
Speaker 4: do like hip hop rap, grafeed and e skate all
Speaker 4: that stuff. Well, yeah, it's like one of my favorite
Speaker 4: favorite magazines back when it was in print. And then
Speaker 4: I was working there as like a young like intern,
Speaker 4: and then from there I transferred from there to like
Speaker 4: a Complex. A lot of people that were working at
Speaker 4: Complex were ex Massippealers, so they brought me in and
Speaker 4: they were like, hey, you know I so you can
Speaker 4: write here, but we're doing this new thing on camera.
Speaker 4: And I was like, all right, I feel like Complex
Speaker 4: has some pretty good writers. I don't know how good
Speaker 4: I am, but if I go on camera, like a
Speaker 4: B plus is an A plus because no one else
Speaker 4: is doing it. So I was like, you know, I jumped.
Speaker 5: On podcasting man, been there, been there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, lower the bar, yeah, And I was like all right,
Speaker 4: let me just kind of creep in here. And so
Speaker 4: from there, you know, one thing led to another and
Speaker 4: I started doing more on camera stuff, and then eventually
Speaker 4: I got into podcasting. Uh, there was a huge podcaster
Speaker 4: in the hip hop world, Combat Jack, and he had
Speaker 4: like his whole interview series with him and all his
Speaker 4: like his cast of characters. And then he transferred into
Speaker 4: doing something that was more narrative based and it was Mogul.
Speaker 4: So he covered the life and death of music executive
Speaker 4: Chris Lighty, and I mean it went off. I think
Speaker 4: that obviously narrative podcasts had been around, but I think
Speaker 4: hip hop didn't really have one, and if it did
Speaker 4: not from a figure I celebrated as Combat. But unfortunately
Speaker 4: Combat had passed away, and he and I were really
Speaker 4: good friends. And the people that were involved in that
Speaker 4: were like, hey, we need someone to we're thinking about
Speaker 4: continuing the series, Let's bring this guy in. And this
Speaker 4: guy was me and it was a huge honor. We
Speaker 4: did a season, well, we did like two episodes on
Speaker 4: Combat which were really great. I learned so much about
Speaker 4: his life. And then we did a season on Uncle
Speaker 4: Luke in the Two Live Crew, which was you know,
Speaker 4: parts who probably could have been on to be a
Speaker 4: true crime show, but you know, it was really cool.
Speaker 4: And then from there we did DJ Screw in Texas,
Speaker 4: so we told these narrative stories about their lives and
Speaker 4: then we kind of found this thing right at the
Speaker 4: end where we combined some of the idea of Mobile,
Speaker 4: which is music, and then brought it into the true
Speaker 4: crime space on the show. That was a title conviction,
Speaker 4: and so we told the story of Max by, this
Speaker 4: New York City, New Jersey based rapper who got caught
Speaker 4: in a sort of murder plot. You know, We're supposed
Speaker 4: to be a robbery, and then the robbery got botched.
Speaker 4: The person they were trying to rob got murdered, and
Speaker 4: Max was sort of the person who orchestrated this. But
Speaker 4: in that he was looking for a lawyer, right, It's like, Hey,
Speaker 4: I'm going to go down for murder. I need to
Speaker 4: find a lawyer. One of the lawyers that he crossed
Speaker 4: paths with was Paul Bergrin, and so he meets Paul
Speaker 4: and he's like, all right here, this guy wins all
Speaker 4: his cases, you know, like then he had tried in
Speaker 4: like a New Jersey courtroom. We should get this guy
Speaker 4: from what I gather. Again, I didn't think my old
Speaker 4: producer who brought me to this project told me about it.
Speaker 4: But basically Paul offered his services which was like, hey,
Speaker 4: maybe we should murder the witness and just spitball in here.
Speaker 3: You guys, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: It's a quick fix, you know, it's for sure.
Speaker 4: Look we can plead out, you know, we can take
Speaker 4: it to trial or hear me out and close.
Speaker 5: It's like that's that's a jump down the street right there,
Speaker 5: and it's like, I.
Speaker 3: Know what you're thinking, let me finish.
Speaker 4: I wonder how it is, Like I wonder if it's
Speaker 4: in sort of a you know, law and order like
Speaker 4: esque room, like all just like dark oak, you know,
Speaker 4: and it's like or if it's written on a piece
Speaker 4: of paper and he flips it over and just says
Speaker 4: murder you know who knows and then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or as we learn in the show, he'll take
Speaker 2: you to a rooftop to have that converse, or maybe
Speaker 2: into the stall of a bathroom.
Speaker 4: Right yeah, yeah, or a restaurant Deddie owns, you know,
Speaker 4: and Max declined. He ended up getting another lawyer named
Speaker 4: Jerry Saluti, who seemed clearly in that and Max is
Speaker 4: now he's doing time right now. I want to say,
Speaker 4: he's in Bergen County Jail in New Jersey. So that
Speaker 4: didn't work. Out, but he also didn't get caught in
Speaker 4: a murder for higher plot. So anyways, that's how we
Speaker 4: found the story. And so what I thought was interesting
Speaker 4: about it was that I kind of came from the
Speaker 4: music and hip hop. He had a moment where those
Speaker 4: things intersected, and we ended up with true crime and
Speaker 4: hip hop, and then it's sort of just true crime.
Speaker 4: So our producer, Matthew Nelson found this story and the
Speaker 4: nature just do the nature of producing our last one,
Speaker 4: and he was like, Hey, this guy Paul is insane.
Speaker 4: This would be a really great episode, a really great series.
Speaker 4: We're like, yeah, sure, let's let's take care of the
Speaker 4: one of hand. And then I get a call and
Speaker 4: he's like, hey, so remember Paul. I was like no,
Speaker 4: and then he told me. I was like, oh, yeah, him,
Speaker 4: do you think we should do this? You know, like,
Speaker 4: is he out? He's like no, he's in jails. All right,
Speaker 4: let's do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, then we're good.
Speaker 3: This gets us to the heart of the story the
Speaker 3: first season of Criminal Attorney Jinx. Is it fair to
Speaker 3: say that you didn't know all the plot twists that
Speaker 3: would happen, because as I'm listening along, as all of
Speaker 3: us are listening along, the story just gets crazier and crazier,
Speaker 3: like Shyamalan after Shyamalan plot twist.
Speaker 4: To say I didn't know where the story was going
Speaker 4: as like an understatement because you hear where you're going
Speaker 4: to end. And sometimes, you know, I think when I click,
Speaker 4: like a true crime show on any streaming app, you know,
Speaker 4: I just kind of click it, it's like very clear logline.
Speaker 4: You're like, all right, this seems interesting. But with this one,
Speaker 4: I was like, I know the end day, so I'm like,
Speaker 4: how what could happen in between? That will be more surprising.
Speaker 4: But how bold he is and the sheer audacity of
Speaker 4: the decisions he's willing to make is like kind of
Speaker 4: amazing but also really haunting. This is like this is
Speaker 4: a human being, like you know, you could be in
Speaker 4: the grocery store. And also just how it's the bravado
Speaker 4: and how he's willing to say these things confidently. Again,
Speaker 4: like from what we gather, he offered these services to
Speaker 4: the rapper Max b like you have to. It's not
Speaker 4: enough to do it, you have to say it just.
Speaker 5: Like well you know what I mean.
Speaker 6: It's like this is a hashtag not all attorney's kind
Speaker 6: of situation. But it really does show you too, the
Speaker 6: lengths to which some people obsessed with the idea of
Speaker 6: winning will go. You know, this is like a glimpse
Speaker 6: into an entire world, like through one person who's maybe
Speaker 6: an extreme case, but it really does kind of make
Speaker 6: my mind sort of latch onto this idea that there's
Speaker 6: more cases like this, you know, And I'm sure you
Speaker 6: know it's like when you boil down like any career, right,
Speaker 6: like whatever your thing is or night in career, any aspiration,
Speaker 6: whatever your goal is, what you'll justify to get there
Speaker 6: is pretty wild.
Speaker 4: Right, And I think like that's kind of what I
Speaker 4: felt about paul An. I guess maybe a more serious notice, like, man,
Speaker 4: you're like, these are like real people you're playing, you know,
Speaker 4: these are like real human beings that he's just moving
Speaker 4: them on his own mental board.
Speaker 6: What's the level of sociopathy or dare I say psychopathy
Speaker 6: that is required to win perpetually like that?
Speaker 5: Because you have no scruples, because there's no point at
Speaker 5: which you will say, oh, this is too far.
Speaker 4: There's no such thing as too far.
Speaker 3: Let's stick with that. Let's stick with that real quick
Speaker 3: because we're talking about Paul. We're saying he's larger than life.
Speaker 3: There's some really interesting things when you look at his
Speaker 3: how he came up. You know, on paper, his early
Speaker 3: career looks pretty prestigious. We're talking a major. We're talking
Speaker 3: a guy who is working on the quote unquote right
Speaker 3: side of the law for a while. And I love
Speaker 3: the point about that slow slide into criminality. Right, No
Speaker 3: one wakes up one day and says, m yeah, today
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be the villain. Right, I'm going full on
Speaker 3: this one. It's a slippery sloop. It's a slow gradient
Speaker 3: of as you said, Jinx, justifying behavior, how would you
Speaker 3: describe Paul to someone who had never met him? Like,
Speaker 3: if they're about to walk into a room with this guy,
Speaker 3: what do you tell them before they meet him?
Speaker 4: And that's a good question. I'm just thinking, like, well,
Speaker 4: what I do? You know? Yeah, it's tough because it's
Speaker 4: like I always think it's like when you first meet
Speaker 4: someone and it's like you get like that like kind
Speaker 4: of minute like of like you know, just trying to
Speaker 4: read them up really quickly. And I feel like falls
Speaker 4: someone that very quickly. He seems dangerous at least to
Speaker 4: me right, But I also think you cannot you cannot
Speaker 4: remove the fact that when people meet Paul, they need
Speaker 4: right they need they need someone to get them out
Speaker 4: of trouble, and he's saying all the right things, and
Speaker 4: people like that are scary to me. Like you guys
Speaker 4: just like you're like, this is my life, you don't worry,
Speaker 4: And you're like, I'm here because I'm worried. What are
Speaker 4: you talking about? Anyone that just like you gotta right
Speaker 4: size things, you know, So like if you're not right size,
Speaker 4: obviously a lawyer shouldn't. He shouldn't be terrified. He shouldn't,
Speaker 4: you know, and still some sort of confidence, but like
Speaker 4: someone who's making it seem like he's just gonna make
Speaker 4: this go away, okay, like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh jinx, you got a headache, Yeah, no worries.
Speaker 4: You know. It's like the guys who are just like
Speaker 4: nothing phases them, or that everything's bounced out right. So like,
Speaker 4: if my problem is this tall and you're telling me
Speaker 4: it's nothing, that balance is gonna come somewhere else, what
Speaker 4: are you going to do to make it nothing? You know,
Speaker 4: a way to put it. Maybe it's my own skepticism,
Speaker 4: but people like that usually like if I were in
Speaker 4: the chair, you know, it's like, Okay, I'm giving him
Speaker 4: less details about my life and I'm ready.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Do do you see formative moments in his career?
Speaker 3: Like clearly again he didn't start off as this character.
Speaker 3: Were there crossroad moments people might call it with this
Speaker 3: slide into criminality for sure?
Speaker 4: I mean, you know one that you all just said
Speaker 4: that made me He's like, oh, I guess that makes
Speaker 4: a ton of sense what he's willing to do to win.
Speaker 4: But as you all said it, it put to my mind,
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, well, when he was with the US attorneys,
Speaker 4: he was winning. And it wasn't until it wasn't even
Speaker 4: that he lost the case. It wasn't until he felt
Speaker 4: like he lost his relationship with you know, the fellow
Speaker 4: like sort of yours attorneys or I'm call it the bureau.
Speaker 4: That's when he was like, okay, guys, and I'm going
Speaker 4: to go to this side and so in this in
Speaker 4: this way, he has to rewrite winning in his mind.
Speaker 4: But I also think like that then if winning is
Speaker 4: your key, if winning is your key north star, then
Speaker 4: that's just subjected, you know, like whoever you do it
Speaker 4: and who you're winning with. You know, it's like if
Speaker 4: I can't beat them, join them. Energy is that to me?
Speaker 4: Is like, that's less about I'm here to do the
Speaker 4: right thing. I'm here to uphold the law. So Noel's saying,
Speaker 4: it's like I'm I'm here to win and there is
Speaker 4: no right side to that. That's just that's just you.
Speaker 4: But the other thing I'll say is that, you know,
Speaker 4: apparently he grew up in like in a law family.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like it's one of those things like as you
Speaker 4: get older, like I grew up and I look back
Speaker 4: sometimes like even in my neighborhood. I'm from New Jersey originally,
Speaker 4: and even in my neighborhood, some of the guys that
Speaker 4: are cops are some of the kids that were tripping
Speaker 4: in high school. I was like, oh, so, like how
Speaker 4: is everyone that I went to high school with that's
Speaker 4: a cop? But like you are you? So we like
Speaker 4: what are you are you doing?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 4: So it's funny how those lines blur or how closely
Speaker 4: related they are for a thousand reasons. Maybe you want
Speaker 4: to be a cop because things around you are crazy,
Speaker 4: or maybe you want to be a cop because it's
Speaker 4: like because of what it allows you to do. I
Speaker 4: don't know those.
Speaker 6: Because you were bullied and now you want to bully
Speaker 6: literally everyone.
Speaker 4: I think about it, and I'm like, I think about it.
Speaker 4: To me, like when you have cops, extensibly, criminals are
Speaker 4: their colleagues, right Like, they're in constant conversation with them,
Speaker 4: almost more than their conversation with like any of us
Speaker 4: on this call. So like, if you are a political journalist,
Speaker 4: your colleagues are politicians, right Like, there is a dance
Speaker 4: between the two of you. And I think it's hard
Speaker 4: not to have some of the that ain't rub off
Speaker 4: when those two fars touch. And I think for Paul,
Speaker 4: someone who grew up in a cop family, he grew up,
Speaker 4: you know, around police and also understanding like the military
Speaker 4: as well, I think that he has an extreme sense
Speaker 4: of loyalty for where that compass points. That's what's up
Speaker 4: for grabs, you know.
Speaker 2: So I want to I want to switch from Paul
Speaker 2: a little bit to the other side, to the FBI,
Speaker 2: because you in criminal Attorney, you introduced us to somebody
Speaker 2: named Sean Brocos who is an FBI agent that you
Speaker 2: got to listen to the show to understand this. But
Speaker 2: it has basically basically been eyeing Paul for a long time,
Speaker 2: but not even necessarily Paul eyeing ways to kind of
Speaker 2: rise in the ranks of the FBI. You describe how
Speaker 2: she got in just on a whim, She like decided,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna go try and join the FBI
Speaker 2: and figured out how to move up quickly. Can you
Speaker 2: describe like the process of moving up through the FBI
Speaker 2: and at least her attempt to do it by flipping
Speaker 2: somebody low level and moving up, And then how did
Speaker 2: she encounter Paul?
Speaker 4: Well, it feels like one. I thought it was crazy
Speaker 4: that she went from being like the bank teller just
Speaker 4: right to the FBI. And I was like, oh, for
Speaker 4: some reason, imagine that being like a lifelong journey. But
Speaker 4: apparently you can do it in like seven years, which
Speaker 4: is uh, just crazy. I don't know, is that like
Speaker 4: is that okay?
Speaker 3: But you know, right i'd look at someone getting their
Speaker 3: their medical degree a little too soon, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 2: Just walk into a hospital, you know what, I'm going
Speaker 2: to join.
Speaker 4: Which is funny because Paul tries to pull that off later.
Speaker 4: But you know, to me, it's like you need less,
Speaker 4: you need like you can fly playing play less. You know,
Speaker 4: I don't know, but yeah, it's like you know, with
Speaker 4: any sort of law enforcement, it seems to me it's
Speaker 4: the cases that you make, right, like your ability to
Speaker 4: turn over cases and then also like quickly and how
Speaker 4: much those cases net. Imagine, like whatever the sort of
Speaker 4: jurisdiction you're in, what their agenda is. Maybe it's a
Speaker 4: violent pride, maybe it's drugs. You know, the FBI in
Speaker 4: her era is probably just like what two thousands, this
Speaker 4: is like I imagine, I mean probably post nine to eleven.
Speaker 4: It's a lot of drugs, a huge oversight from like
Speaker 4: Homeland Security is involved. So and also she's in the
Speaker 4: metro area, so imagine there's a lot of competition, a
Speaker 4: lot of dolledge circulating for her. She's playing in the
Speaker 4: background of Newark, New Jersey, which is sort of in
Speaker 4: you know, the background of the new city, so which
Speaker 4: you know at the time. I mean, especially with Newark,
Speaker 4: it's like, well, drugs are everywhere, but in Newark it
Speaker 4: has sort of a connotation and baggage of that. So
Speaker 4: for Sean, these are going to be the cases that
Speaker 4: she makes, and if she can take down this drug
Speaker 4: kingpin I believe I have named wilb Baskerville. If she
Speaker 4: can take him down, you know, that's big and that
Speaker 4: allows her to rise through the ranks or you know,
Speaker 4: you know, it's maybe be a director, but it would
Speaker 4: be huge news to take down a drug food in Newark,
Speaker 4: New Jersey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she goes out after a guy named Chemo, right,
Speaker 2: who is kind of lower level, I guess, yeah, And man,
Speaker 2: the story of his life is tragic, and you know,
Speaker 2: you go over that a lot in the show. Just sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm just talking like a fan right now. I wanted
Speaker 2: to learn more about Chemo because Kimo's with his stepfather
Speaker 2: when well, he's jumping for it and I'm just spoiling stuff.
Speaker 2: So let's just say Chemo's an integral part of the show,
Speaker 2: but he only gets to play a part for a
Speaker 2: short time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, And I think what's interesting about this
Speaker 4: is that the role Chemo plays, right, he's not a
Speaker 4: decision maker, you know, he's sort of like kind of
Speaker 4: pushed and pulled between all these people with more bout
Speaker 4: you know, whether it's Will Baskerville, you know, Sean brocos
Speaker 4: in many ways, you know, Paulbergrant and what he's not
Speaker 4: going on over there, And then you know, you have
Speaker 4: to also acknowledge that Chemo's made whatever decision, then the
Speaker 4: circumstances he has up until this point when Sean Frost's past. So,
Speaker 4: I think what you end up feeling with Chemo probably
Speaker 4: more than anyone, and is like I said that, Grady,
Speaker 4: and like the shades and bray of someone's life, and
Speaker 4: like how you can be in this really uncomfortable position
Speaker 4: almost from the start, and so like, yes, you have choices,
Speaker 4: but what are your choices? Is it between a rock
Speaker 4: and a hard place?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 4: And when someone that doesn't have that sort of that
Speaker 4: environment or that that set of circumstances, when they come
Speaker 4: into your world, there's no acknowledgement of what you've gone through,
Speaker 4: what you don't have. It's just it's just opportunity to them, right.
Speaker 4: It's opportunity for Shaw, it's opportunity for Paul, it's opportunity
Speaker 4: for Will, you know. So it's a sad part of
Speaker 4: the story for sure.
Speaker 3: And with FBI agent Brucos, there's there's something that stands
Speaker 3: out in a weird way. Ben. It kind of parallels
Speaker 3: how you were telling us the providence of the story
Speaker 3: how you all discovered the story of criminal attorney because
Speaker 3: Agent Brocos is starting to look at this criminal defense
Speaker 3: attorney that she at first does not know right from
Speaker 3: a can of pet and she's going, hang on, every
Speaker 3: time this guy takes a case, he wins, going back
Speaker 3: to the idea of winning, and just for anybody not
Speaker 3: in the legal field, you're not supposed to win all
Speaker 3: the time usually, I mean they want to, and that's
Speaker 3: not how it works. And so there's this excellent storytelling
Speaker 3: in our narrative where we start to ask ourselves, how
Speaker 3: can somebody and criminal defense attorney always seem to be winning?
Speaker 3: Do you see that parallel? Because I feel like she
Speaker 3: started looking at Paul Bergrinn similar to the way like
Speaker 3: you guys discovered him, not necessarily looking at him from
Speaker 3: the jump.
Speaker 4: Well also too, it's like she's you gotta figure she's
Speaker 4: also trained in a way to like spot not the weakness,
Speaker 4: but spot like irregularities, and like she's constantly dealing with
Speaker 4: people who either a aren't winning or B she's going
Speaker 4: to hand them their loss. Right, So like if you're
Speaker 4: if you're looking, my dad said something to me once,
Speaker 4: uh as a kid, he was talking about like like
Speaker 4: this this thribbing school and like kids that act tough,
Speaker 4: and he's like, man, the kid who's like trying to
Speaker 4: fight everybody, the kid who just goes around and it's
Speaker 4: like his day is going to come because he's winning
Speaker 4: too much. And there's a guy who wins over there
Speaker 4: is going to look for him, right, And it's just
Speaker 4: what it is. It's like levels of competition. It's like
Speaker 4: for Sean, she's she spots that she can smell that, right,
Speaker 4: It's like, hey, what taking down a chemo is nothing.
Speaker 4: I mean to the point where Chimo's not doesn't even
Speaker 4: register on her bill, Like he becomes a pawn. That's
Speaker 4: not something that you take home. That's side a trophy.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: He needs to be used to get a real winner,
Speaker 4: you know. And so it says what competition looks like
Speaker 4: and what people that play at a high level what
Speaker 4: they spot and if you play in certain fields, people
Speaker 4: will like smell that out. If Lebron drops sixty tomorrow
Speaker 4: he's getting that random drug test, like they're like, hey,
Speaker 4: like you know, like tomorrow, just pee in a cup, man,
Speaker 4: Like you know, if you go if you go up
Speaker 4: to bat like we got the World Series coming, Like
Speaker 4: if every at bat you're connecting, you're getting you're getting
Speaker 4: the letter the next day, you know, like we're checking
Speaker 4: and this is a game where we want someone to win,
Speaker 4: but you can't win that much. And I think, dude,
Speaker 4: that says a lot about us, That says a lot
Speaker 4: about Sean. It's just like, yeah, well we how we
Speaker 4: regard with you know.
Speaker 2: Well, see, Paul seemed to have some kind of formula
Speaker 2: figured out before he even got to the US Attorney's office.
Speaker 2: So when he was back in Essex County and he's
Speaker 2: a prosecutor, at least from what I can tell, and
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong here, jinks Paul had a
Speaker 2: tendency to do favors for people that could do him favors.
Speaker 2: So the the reason why he gets, you know, in
Speaker 2: trouble and ends up leaving the US Attorney's office is
Speaker 2: because he becomes a character witness in the trial for
Speaker 2: two Hama side detectives that appear to have really helped
Speaker 2: him win cases, right, which is like, first.
Speaker 4: Off, dude, like that's the other It's like, Yo, you
Speaker 4: could resist this, you could say no, but he can't,
Speaker 4: you know, But yeah, that's exactly what he was doing.
Speaker 4: He's playing both sides of the law, and I think
Speaker 4: for him, we're just talking about like, let's say, if
Speaker 4: not to start like Lebron drug test fumers. I don't
Speaker 4: know why I said that, but you don't do that.
Speaker 3: I don't know that that, babe, laugh out loud.
Speaker 4: I think they keep it, you know. But it's like
Speaker 4: winning within the confines of the of the game, right,
Speaker 4: like are you actually winning in the courtroom or in
Speaker 4: the Lebron case, are you winning on the court? Did
Speaker 4: you do something before the game to win?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 4: That isn't preparation, did you know? And I think Paul
Speaker 4: understood that. I think Paul was like, hey, I need
Speaker 4: to do something outside of this in order to win
Speaker 4: the weather's trade favors, where it's to leverage people with
Speaker 4: its intimidation, you know, Like I think he understood how
Speaker 4: to grease those wheels and move those things. Yes, he's
Speaker 4: very theatrical in court, and he's very boastful and has
Speaker 4: a lot of confidence, but that's fueled by the fact
Speaker 4: that he knows he's got you know, he's counting cards
Speaker 4: over here, you know. So I think, yeah, I think
Speaker 4: what he did outside of court shows what he was
Speaker 4: willing to do. And it's now that you say it,
Speaker 4: like I feel like I should look into this. It's
Speaker 4: like did they vacate those cases? You know, like how
Speaker 4: many of those cases did they have to go back.
Speaker 3: And look at Ooh, And we'll pause here for a
Speaker 3: word from our sponsors.
Speaker 4: And we're back.
Speaker 5: Talking about folks like this.
Speaker 6: It always kind of brings me back to an inherent
Speaker 6: distrust I have of people that maybe make the idea
Speaker 6: of being a defense attorney.
Speaker 5: Their whole life's goal.
Speaker 6: It just, you know, I know it's required for the
Speaker 6: judicial system to function, you have to have people on
Speaker 6: both sides and people willing to represent people.
Speaker 5: That seem guilty as sin or whatever. But it just
Speaker 5: seems like a snake pit.
Speaker 6: Like I just wonder what your thoughts are on the profession,
Speaker 6: you know, of being that kind of attorney, and like
Speaker 6: if you have a balance from your research as to
Speaker 6: like what are the good ones look like versus folks
Speaker 6: like this.
Speaker 4: Well, one of my my perspectives completely skewed because for
Speaker 4: whatever reason, I just I watched Law and Order the
Speaker 4: entire time, making this for like.
Speaker 5: Not even for the helmuch it's like a comfort show
Speaker 5: is what it is.
Speaker 4: It really is, you know what I mean, sprinkle a
Speaker 4: little homicide on top of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But by the way, just to plug here, everybody,
Speaker 2: go listen to Law and Order Criminal Justice System. The
Speaker 2: first season's out right now on.
Speaker 3: The podcast net work or wherever you find your favorite
Speaker 3: find your podcast skewed.
Speaker 5: Okay, I guess I could see why, but maybe please
Speaker 5: like elaborate.
Speaker 4: Well, it's just like because it's always like that thing behind.
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it's a totally fabricated show, but it's
Speaker 4: the conversations bepond that we're not privy to where the
Speaker 4: person knows the person that representing is guilty. So again,
Speaker 4: it's so what you're saying, it's just a it's about winning,
Speaker 4: and the fact that we have a system like that
Speaker 4: is pretty wild. Where the prosecution's like, hey, we got
Speaker 4: to prove this person's guilty. They just did something terrible,
Speaker 4: and the criminal defense attorney's like, hey, I know you
Speaker 4: did something terrible. We have to fight a way to
Speaker 4: beat you out of it. And I think something about that.
Speaker 4: I can't call it American, but I guess I can
Speaker 4: call it America. I don't know how these things working
Speaker 4: in near the country. That's kind of America, Like that's yeah.
Speaker 4: There was a question that arose when we were talking
Speaker 4: about anti heroes at some point and why we wouldn't
Speaker 4: feel like the bad guy sometimes, and I'm like, that's American, Like,
Speaker 4: that's that's like cowboy culture. That's you know, really the
Speaker 4: kid that's that's like American gangster. We woot for that.
Speaker 3: Most that's also the revolving door of private and public industry.
Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, like who better to watch the hen
Speaker 3: House than the former Wolf? You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: It shows the score.
Speaker 4: The New York Times article I remember I found the
Speaker 4: headline it circulates every once in a while where it's
Speaker 4: like the CIA find it self not of like planting crack.
Speaker 4: You're like, oh yeah, like you know, you're investigating yourself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, why not.
Speaker 2: We've talked about on the show so many times drinks
Speaker 2: just about how that American thing you're talking about where well, Ben,
Speaker 2: we always talk about how the United States was formed
Speaker 2: via conspiracy to rise up against the powers that be right.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's literally how the country formed, and it
Speaker 2: just everything then that we create inside it is this
Speaker 2: way of rejecting and stuff and what.
Speaker 4: We define underneath that. Right, So we'll say that something's
Speaker 4: like fair, and if that's your starting point, it's not
Speaker 4: until like it takes a long time to question what
Speaker 4: fair is, Like you like that is not something you
Speaker 4: think about and you're like ten eighteen. If you think
Speaker 4: on eighteen, you end up on the FBI watched this.
Speaker 4: But like if you start, by the time you think
Speaker 4: about that using an adult of like, wait, what's fair?
Speaker 4: He came up with it? We have these systems that yeah,
Speaker 4: like a criminal defense attorney like what makes you good?
Speaker 4: And are you good? Because you're like like what is that?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Like or it's just really a think it goes back
Speaker 4: to what you're saying, you're good because you win, you know.
Speaker 3: And yeah, this gets us to another parallel. I would
Speaker 3: suggest I'm walking down the street for this one. Is
Speaker 3: there's something Colonel Kurtz about it, like in Heart of
Speaker 3: Darkness or Apocalypse Now, because we see Paul Bergrenn he's
Speaker 3: a prosecutor. Like I was asking earlier Jinks for a
Speaker 3: formative moment, it sounds like the moment where he's a
Speaker 3: character witness is where things start to turn on him
Speaker 3: with his legal colleagues, the prosecutors. And I love that
Speaker 3: point you made earlier about you know, technically your colleagues
Speaker 3: in the pursuit of law are also going to be criminals.
Speaker 3: So this this then, would this be his formative moment
Speaker 3: because I believe he resigns from the attorney's office, like
Speaker 3: just like Colonel Kurtz, his career looks great on paper.
Speaker 3: I think it was working for Aldo at some point
Speaker 3: for Samuel Alito, which is crazy, right right? And is
Speaker 3: it simply that motivation to win that made him switch
Speaker 3: sides and play defense.
Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like I am just engaging with
Speaker 4: these thoughts for the first time because I kind of
Speaker 4: took it as it was as you guys started to
Speaker 4: bring up the concept of winning. This feels really like
Speaker 4: the theme. And I know it's like in the trail
Speaker 4: if he'll do anything to win, but you guys are
Speaker 4: saying it, I'm like, oh, like, yeah, he will. And
Speaker 4: I think what he saw is other people that play
Speaker 4: similar position on the court that weren't expressing him same
Speaker 4: like they got in the way of his win, and
Speaker 4: you know, he resigned, but they were pretty much pushing
Speaker 4: him out. And I think it's one of those things
Speaker 4: where you some of you are doing the same thing
Speaker 4: as someone else, but you revealed you are doing it
Speaker 4: for two different ways and for different reasons. And I
Speaker 4: could see him easily going back and being like what
Speaker 4: loyalty or when someone is like what we won, you know,
Speaker 4: and someone's like, no, that's not how he's do it,
Speaker 4: you know, And or look at all my other wins,
Speaker 4: why don't they negate this thing? And it's like, hey,
Speaker 4: you're where lawyers do, like we're a US Attorney's office,
Speaker 4: Like you're a trip and like you you can't go
Speaker 4: do that, and these guys, these are the ones that
Speaker 4: you're going to do this for, you know. And I
Speaker 4: think he ran it to the other part of like
Speaker 4: the American culture, especially when you get into anything and
Speaker 4: do the like the judicial system or politicians is like, hey,
Speaker 4: we also have an image to upheat and you're not
Speaker 4: really one of us. And this was like the moment
Speaker 4: that we decided you're not one of us. This is
Speaker 4: where we kick you out the country club. And I
Speaker 4: think that that is something that we don't really lean
Speaker 4: heavily on in Paul's story. But Paul is like the
Speaker 4: shim humble beginnings. You know, he's he's probably from that
Speaker 4: world where police and criminals occupy the same bar, you know,
Speaker 4: like they all drink together, but they go out and
Speaker 4: go do your own thing, especially you know, somewhere like
Speaker 4: the Jerdans. So I think that I think he probably
Speaker 4: had a root awakening there anyone else to be like, hey,
Speaker 4: it's a lesson to learn, or it's not where I
Speaker 4: need to be. He's like, fuck you guys, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: going to.
Speaker 3: Get revenge, you know, which you kind of like, as
Speaker 3: I hate to say it, we're so programmed, but like
Speaker 3: as Americans, a lot of us listening along tonight, there
Speaker 3: are several people in the audience who went, I get it.
Speaker 3: I get it. Yeah, I might not agree, but I've
Speaker 3: been there.
Speaker 4: I didn't know how bad a person I was until
Speaker 4: I rewatched Breaking Bed, Like it wasn't until we got
Speaker 4: like I saw where Walter started. I was like, oh man,
Speaker 4: he really transformed. And then I was like, wait, I
Speaker 4: didn't stop. I don't think I ever stopped rooting for him,
Speaker 4: like you know, and I'm not.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, yeah, well I love that Paul did
Speaker 2: an East Coast Saul goodman. That makes me really happy
Speaker 2: because that is kind of what he did and I
Speaker 2: want to get so I want to stay on this
Speaker 2: track of him doing favors for eventual favors in creating
Speaker 2: basically a crew of human beings that he knows and
Speaker 2: he can call upon and he can help out. I
Speaker 2: want to jump to Jason Itzler.
Speaker 4: I think is how you say his name? Yeah, this
Speaker 4: is a guy that somehow.
Speaker 2: Paul meets and gets to know. Because Jason Nitzler is
Speaker 2: dealing with some legal issues. Paul meets him and figures out, Oh,
Speaker 2: I think we could have a cozy little relationship here
Speaker 2: and get into a business venture to talk to us
Speaker 2: about what Jason Nitzler was doing and how these guys
Speaker 2: formed a partnership.
Speaker 4: Well, Jason's running essentially like this brothel, you know, New
Speaker 4: York Confidential. And it's funny because I don't know why.
Speaker 4: I'm like realizing all these things as you guys are talking,
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, wait, that that's the show we need.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: You knows he to lose perspective when you're in it
Speaker 5: like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like Jason is you know, he's he runs
Speaker 4: a brothel, which naturally it's going to have you run
Speaker 4: right up against the law for better or worse, because
Speaker 4: I can'not even imagine his clients. Hell, how many people
Speaker 4: were in there that we're supposed to be on this
Speaker 4: other side of the law, right.
Speaker 3: And also the name is a little on the nose,
Speaker 3: but you know what I mean, like call it it's
Speaker 3: something different on that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like you know, it's like having you know,
Speaker 4: like you got like a drug den and like on
Speaker 4: the athlete just says secrets like the.
Speaker 3: You know you go to secrets. Sorry, folks, we're all
Speaker 3: from Atlanta. Yeah, secret secrets are no fun.
Speaker 6: It's like there was a story recently about like a
Speaker 6: giant bag of drugs that was found that was labeled
Speaker 6: definitely not a giant bag of drugs along those lines.
Speaker 4: Of this, which like if I were a law corse
Speaker 4: then I found it again, I'd be like you got that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this this is a pretty crazy story though,
Speaker 3: Like this is you know, obviously we've got a little
Speaker 3: bit of levity here, but a brothel being run out
Speaker 3: of this location.
Speaker 2: In escort service guys in Manhattan.
Speaker 3: Sure, something confidential. I can't say it. I'm not the
Speaker 3: judge but the the what what we see here immediately
Speaker 3: kind of like how you're talking about our FBI agent
Speaker 3: brocos how you get that spidey sense? Yeah, smell an
Speaker 3: ill wind. This is a huge red flag to all
Speaker 3: sorts of other related crimes. Right, And this is why
Speaker 3: these guys Jason and Paul kind of begin, you know,
Speaker 3: messing with each other, because, like you were saying earlier,
Speaker 3: jinks people don't come to him unless they need something.
Speaker 4: A few things here, Uh, smell an ill wind, I'm
Speaker 4: stealing neck. That's amazing. Just imagine like describing someone else
Speaker 4: that it'll win like that's oh my god. But I'd
Speaker 4: also say, yeah, you know. And and also I want
Speaker 4: to go back to that first question, what I would
Speaker 4: say to someone if they met Paul, because as you're saying,
Speaker 4: it's like, if you're Jason, oh, Paul's like me, No,
Speaker 4: it's not. Paul is always going to have the upper hand, right,
Speaker 4: because Paul plays in the heat. Jason doesn't get afforded
Speaker 4: the benefit of the doubt. He was and you're a
Speaker 4: confidential right, Will Basker doesn't get afore the benefit of
Speaker 4: the doubt. None of his other clients get afford the
Speaker 4: benefit of the doubt. That's why they get a lawyer,
Speaker 4: because the lawyer supposed to have the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 4: But because Paul is playing you know, quick and fast
Speaker 4: with their careers or not their lives, he's able to
Speaker 4: kind of like permeate these lines to kind of transfer
Speaker 4: back and forth. And what would you do if you
Speaker 4: told your lawyer, You tell your lawyer's secrets. He's supposed
Speaker 4: to protect you and say he sees his opportunity. So
Speaker 4: it's almost even different than Sean because he doesn't have
Speaker 4: to look for it. He's created a shop where you
Speaker 4: come here to be repaired, and he's like, hey, I'm
Speaker 4: going to repair you to the public cyber. We're going
Speaker 4: to use the thing that's broken about you and I'm
Speaker 4: going to manipulate that from my own game. So you're
Speaker 4: never going to get away from this thing, you know.
Speaker 4: It's I mean, it's like the mob. It's you know, like, hey,
Speaker 4: Tony Soprano, can you help me get out of this jam?
Speaker 4: He's like, I'm going to pay this thing, but you're
Speaker 4: not going to get out of the jam. I'm the jam,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like you work for me.
Speaker 3: Now he has a very different interpretation of atturning clients
Speaker 3: privilege because now it's his privilege to treat people as
Speaker 3: a tool for a use, right.
Speaker 4: One thousand percent. And he's, uh, it's Sean has a
Speaker 4: whole other level of privilege because she's the law. But
Speaker 4: Paul is much more nefarious because he's he's playing both
Speaker 4: sides in a way that Sean isn't, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, and he's now got a brothel which he can
Speaker 2: use as that tool to coerce somebody into doing something
Speaker 2: by getting them into a position right where. Oh well,
Speaker 2: if I you know, if anyone finds out that you're
Speaker 2: over here insert NBA player or you know, like high
Speaker 2: level human beings that are rolling through New York Confidential
Speaker 2: when it moves, what is it it moves to a
Speaker 2: different location like in Manhattan.
Speaker 4: Oh that is that he steals by the way he
Speaker 4: steals it from Jason and reopens it himself, you know,
Speaker 4: and then like changes the name slightly. I think it's
Speaker 4: like New York Confidential, like incorporated. We're like, oh, oh,
Speaker 4: classy cool.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like when you copy someone's paper and you write
Speaker 4: the name on the top two and teacher's like, hey,
Speaker 4: that's try try harder. But yeah, you know, he's he's
Speaker 4: able to sort of manipulate all these characters. And what's
Speaker 4: not lost on me is that there's part in the
Speaker 4: story where we talk about, you know, the cops are
Speaker 4: coming and they're watching this, They're watching the cops rate
Speaker 4: them on a webcamera, and I'm like, guys, he's not
Speaker 4: a webcam, Like, he's got stored footage of everyone that's
Speaker 4: walking in this place. And you're coming here for secrecy.
Speaker 4: You're coming here, you know, to be able to like
Speaker 4: do of the things you want to do away from
Speaker 4: it confidentially. Is nothing confidential about security cameras that record
Speaker 4: what you do. And Paul has access to this, Paul
Speaker 4: and his crew, so he's never what he says he is.
Speaker 4: So to go back to that initial question of what
Speaker 4: I would say to people that do with Paul's like
Speaker 4: it's sort of all like them that meme of Jesse
Speaker 4: and Walter Race, Like he can't keep getting away with this.
Speaker 4: Paul up until this point will always get away if
Speaker 4: he will always have the upper hand. Dude, you cannot
Speaker 4: let your guard down around him.
Speaker 3: You know he's big into insurance for sure, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, before you jump away from New York Confidential, do
Speaker 2: you mind bent Just I wanted to tell you guys
Speaker 2: the thing I was mentioning off Mike like earlier before,
Speaker 2: when you look at the address of where New York
Speaker 2: Confidential moved when it got it was in Hoboken, and
Speaker 2: then it moved to Manhattan. And when it moved to Manhattan,
Speaker 2: the address was seventy nine Worth Street in Manhattan. And
Speaker 2: if you look at that location on Google Maps, just
Speaker 2: if you've listened to this show before, and then you
Speaker 2: go to StreetView and you just turn the street view
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty degrees, you will see the AT
Speaker 2: and T. Long Lines Building, also known at the giant
Speaker 2: windowless building that's down there in Manhattan. That's the place
Speaker 2: where operations Stellar Wind was taking place. When the United
Speaker 2: States and the NSA decided they needed to do the
Speaker 2: whole warrantless wiretapping thing during the Bush administration the early
Speaker 2: two thousands, it was it was happening in that building
Speaker 2: in that year two thousand and three, at the same time,
Speaker 2: exactly at the same time that New York Confidential was occurring.
Speaker 3: I think it's also really diplomatic that you're putting Stellar
Speaker 3: Wind in past tense.
Speaker 2: Oh no, when it was being enacted for the first
Speaker 2: time during the Bush administration. It's crazy to me.
Speaker 4: Then you imagine, you know, it's funny because even when
Speaker 4: I found out where Paul is locked up, right, I
Speaker 4: don't know spoiler, I guess went. I'll think, look, yeah,
Speaker 4: he's in prison. You know, he's in super max. And
Speaker 4: I was like super max. I mean, like does that
Speaker 4: go for any murderer? And then I realized, like, oh, one,
Speaker 4: you really can't let this guy near a phone, right,
Speaker 4: He's like he's compulsive, Like if he gets a phone,
Speaker 4: you know, what will he do, which is like crazy
Speaker 4: to think we can't let you get a phone, you know,
Speaker 4: because you'll try again and you really can't help yourself.
Speaker 4: And what when you say that, I mean, that's really crazy.
Speaker 4: Like if I had a guy who you know, it's like,
Speaker 4: murdering a drug dealer is not quitting in supermax, you know,
Speaker 4: by almost on any standards, well like Taverath witnesses. When
Speaker 4: you add them all up, I could see it, but
Speaker 4: I think one has catched it to the US Attorney's
Speaker 4: office just in that that timeline of him. It's like, no,
Speaker 4: you're not getting back out. We're not, that's not happening.
Speaker 4: And if you bring up the sella anything, it's like
Speaker 4: there's a club across the street from work, Like.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, Pads, because like you said, you have to
Speaker 3: you have to do the most to get in supermacs.
Speaker 3: And I love the comparison you've made earlier, Jinks, the
Speaker 3: idea of Walter White, right, uh, a person who is
Speaker 3: not ostensibly, uh necessarily physically dangerous, right, but who is
Speaker 3: mentally a super villain. You can't let these people around
Speaker 3: phones because every especially because they know they already know
Speaker 3: the inner work prosecution, which is a tremendous power.
Speaker 4: And Paul isn't like murdered anyone himself that we know of,
Speaker 4: but like his crime, same as Walters isn't social engineering,
Speaker 4: Like he's incredibly good at moving the pieces on the board,
Speaker 4: and where someone else would see a risk, he just
Speaker 4: sees a tight window to operate if he were. You know,
Speaker 4: it's like how like athletes see the field differently, Like
Speaker 4: they just see the style of play differently. They don't
Speaker 4: know what they're gonna you know, like looking at Kyrie
Speaker 4: Irving dribble, like he doesn't know what he's gonna do
Speaker 4: fifteen feet away, but he sees an opening and then
Speaker 4: somehow his learnings, his mechanics, his everything he's built around
Speaker 4: himself allows him to shoot a gap or move this way.
Speaker 4: It's all unfolding in real time. I think Paul is
Speaker 4: a savant. I think he is. I think he is
Speaker 4: that kind of person where like he puts something in motion,
Speaker 4: he can't totally predict it. But how present he is
Speaker 4: in these moments requires like either an addiction or fascination
Speaker 4: with this, because everyone's got sleep, and this guy wakes
Speaker 4: up in crime like at least up here.
Speaker 3: You know that's the way, and seeing the field differently
Speaker 3: is a beautiful comparison. There. It's somewhat terrifying comparison, but
Speaker 3: I believe it's absolutely astute because the risk calculations are different.
Speaker 6: Hey, let's take a quick pause in our conversation with
Speaker 6: Jinks to hear a word from our sponsors, and then
Speaker 6: we shall return momentarily.
Speaker 5: And as promised, we have returned.
Speaker 3: This is where we get to the next act maybe
Speaker 3: of the slide, because when we're saying he's a savant,
Speaker 3: which after listening to criminal attorney, I fully agree with
Speaker 3: we're saying he's a savant. Folks, please do not misconstrue
Speaker 3: that as us saying he got away. Because as talented
Speaker 3: and as lucid and brilliant as this guy was, h
Speaker 3: it seems that things began to go wrong partially due
Speaker 3: to uh New York Confidential. Oh excuse me, New York Confidential.
Speaker 4: Ink. Yeah, you know, yeah, his second attempt. But I
Speaker 4: think that's the other thing about winning, is like, while
Speaker 4: you can be talented, that helps him manifest wings, it's
Speaker 4: it's also the same thing that would's like, you know,
Speaker 4: it's being an addict. You know, he's addicted to it, clearly,
Speaker 4: because there's moments where he could stop, Like Jason Hitzler
Speaker 4: gets locked right for New York Confidential. Paul says, Okay,
Speaker 4: let's just run it back, Like what like this guy,
Speaker 4: the guy you're supposed to be defending, he's in trouble
Speaker 4: for it, and you said, you know what, this is
Speaker 4: really good. I'm going to take this, you know, And
Speaker 4: then he starts kind of losing his powers and his abilities.
Speaker 4: There's a reporter and catches on and Mike wants to
Speaker 4: interview him, and he tells a whole lie about being
Speaker 4: he's given up law and now he's pursuing being a doctor,
Speaker 4: Like what like that? That's that's so far out there.
Speaker 4: That's just such a verifiable lie. That's so dumb. It's
Speaker 4: you're sitting in class and your teachers like, who has
Speaker 4: you know, she's going around collecting homework and you you
Speaker 4: haven't gotten that far. So you're like, it's in my
Speaker 4: book bag, go get it.
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't think the next step.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're just trying to survive the conbo.
Speaker 2: You know, speaking of next steps, You've got all of
Speaker 2: this money that you're generating, and people are coming to
Speaker 2: you and they're asking you to do stuff with money.
Speaker 2: What do you do if you if you're Paul and
Speaker 2: you've got some ideas. Well, let's say you're married and
Speaker 2: you've got a girlfriend too, and your girlfriend, you and
Speaker 2: your girlfriend have a condo, and you also own a
Speaker 2: restaurant called Isabella's and it's you know, somewhere there in Jersey. Now, look,
Speaker 2: I haven't spent much time in Jersey except for Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: I've spent some time over there just through an X
Speaker 2: and one thing I know, there are so many amazing restaurants.
Speaker 2: Oh in that part like that one. Yeah, there's this
Speaker 2: one area like right in in New Jersey there where
Speaker 2: it's like the best restaurants you've ever been to, at
Speaker 2: least in my opinion.
Speaker 3: Sometimes they're surprised if you walk in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. Some of them are doing other stuff,
Speaker 2: not just making great food.
Speaker 3: They're like, hey, when you have a food Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: we got a couple spots like that in Atlanta. But folks,
Speaker 3: if you have traveled in the right places or the
Speaker 3: wrong places, you know what we're talking about, jinks. What
Speaker 3: Bat's referencing to something that came up a little while
Speaker 3: ago on our show, Because oddly enough, you know, the
Speaker 3: common troop for this is if you catch yourself in
Speaker 3: one of those restaurants on a good day, service is
Speaker 3: going to be kind of slow and confused, but it's
Speaker 3: often really good food too, which is the devil's bargain
Speaker 3: of the whole thing. You know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're like, hey, if they raid, you know, we
Speaker 4: used to have that with just living in Atlanta, you
Speaker 4: know where you're like you go in the corner store,
Speaker 4: You're like corner store or drug front, like which one?
Speaker 4: You know, Like nothing's on the shelves like nothing on
Speaker 4: the candy bars. Yeah, you're just like all right, guys,
Speaker 4: like you gotta do what you got at least get
Speaker 4: in the act of it. By yeah, you have like
Speaker 4: some zebra cakes over here, skittle something like something. But yeah, man,
Speaker 4: wait now I'm talking about food.
Speaker 3: Isabella's barberg. How do you wash your money?
Speaker 4: I mean one, it's like, definitely get rid of you
Speaker 4: your confidential ink like that just feels so obvious. But
Speaker 4: I think it's that other thing too that makes paul
Speaker 4: a true criminals, Like I don't know if he ever
Speaker 4: expressed one and get out the game, but you do
Speaker 4: need an exit plan. Granted he's under Rico charge, so
Speaker 4: like anything he touches is like not it's it's a wrap.
Speaker 4: But you know to yeah, like everything you touched there,
Speaker 4: it's just a big fishing net over everything you've got
Speaker 4: going and whoever else you've given money to, especially if
Speaker 4: they're in your if they're within your employee. But a restaurant, sure,
Speaker 4: but then you can't go there and like then continue
Speaker 4: to do drug deals and make fits like you can't
Speaker 4: like a laundromat, it needs to be a laundromat. You know,
Speaker 4: you can't then be like, hey, it's a laundromat. Also
Speaker 4: like it's a drug front. Like you're you're you're missing
Speaker 4: the point laundering your money. You're just you're just buying
Speaker 4: more robbery.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Sean Sean said when they eventually went in there,
Speaker 2: they were like kilos of cocaine just in the back
Speaker 2: of the restaurant.
Speaker 4: It's like, hey, man, like this is to distract them,
Speaker 4: not to Now you've got an address, You've got an LLC.
Speaker 4: What the is wrong with you? Like, why are you
Speaker 4: doing this?
Speaker 2: You know it was called Isabella's International Restaurant Incorporated.
Speaker 4: But also what a what a great name? Like, you know,
Speaker 4: it's like a bot of being Isabella's. Like it justems
Speaker 4: like I haven't seen it, but it just needs to.
Speaker 4: I can just see it written in script, you know, so.
Speaker 3: A little Italy script. Yeah. And because he keeps, because
Speaker 3: he is doing this thing that continually pushing the envelope, right,
Speaker 3: He's also we could say, he's also playing some heavy
Speaker 3: mental parkour, a lot of rationalization for how he will
Speaker 3: make this feel reasonable. Right, we don't really have an
Speaker 3: exit plan. We're just swimming further further into the ocean
Speaker 3: open ocean of crime. It is inevitable that this guy
Speaker 3: will get caught. It is an unsustainable, untenable plan. So
Speaker 3: we talked about you know, coming in to check out
Speaker 3: Isabella's encountering kilos of cocaine. Would you say this is
Speaker 3: when the stuff starts to go wrong for him? Is
Speaker 3: this where the teacher asked for his backpack?
Speaker 4: Yeah? And I think this is where he's Uh, it's
Speaker 4: that moment where you're digging through your backpack yet forgetting
Speaker 4: doing your homework anymore. You're just like, I gotta do.
Speaker 4: I need a better line, Like I need something better
Speaker 4: than this, you know. But yeah, man, he's you know,
Speaker 4: things start to unravel, and this is where like they're
Speaker 4: catching it, not just like I mean he's on tape.
Speaker 4: I think this is where his role again of winning.
Speaker 4: I was talking to a musical artists recently. Other they
Speaker 4: were talking about longevity and how they have to like
Speaker 4: switch their careers up and how like they start out
Speaker 4: doing one thing and how they look for, you know,
Speaker 4: other things in their careers sustain themselves. And I was
Speaker 4: asking them, like, hey, does winning hurt that process?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 4: Like if you were selling out you know arenas, or
Speaker 4: if you had a certain type of song grop making
Speaker 4: and people loved it. Is it hard to move on?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Is it like, you know, Green Bay when they've got
Speaker 4: like Brett Fahr and he's still selling jerseys but they're
Speaker 4: not winning games. And you got this quarterback on the bench,
Speaker 4: Aaron Rodgers, like do you let him in? You know,
Speaker 4: Tom Brady? You know, it's like you had a great game,
Speaker 4: but I'm sure there was heavy conversation between like do
Speaker 4: we let Bledsoe back in? This guy won one game?
Speaker 4: How do you make the justification against the thing that
Speaker 4: was serving you versus where you need to go? So
Speaker 4: I give those like metaphors and parallels to Paul because
Speaker 4: Paul has won, right, especially in his world and in
Speaker 4: his mind, he's won, and he's won by, you know,
Speaker 4: representing people within court. He's won by sort of these
Speaker 4: favors and manipulating all these different institutions. And in cruise,
Speaker 4: I think that's what sort of in Bolden said and
Speaker 4: makes him think that he's going to be fine no
Speaker 4: matter what I mean, a student like represent himself in
Speaker 4: court like, oh boy, that's.
Speaker 3: What's that old Mark Twain quote?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: For an attorney? Yeah? Oh man, I still think you know,
Speaker 3: that's I don't want to sound too crass about it,
Speaker 3: but that is so damn balzy, you know, like that
Speaker 3: is something other criminals in this achelon themselves will not do.
Speaker 4: But he has been rewarded for that in his world, right,
Speaker 4: So it's like this reward systeing. He's been winning playing
Speaker 4: this quarterback and now the games asked for him to
Speaker 4: do some something different and he's like, nah, I'm not
Speaker 4: going to bench this play. I'm not going to bench
Speaker 4: this approach. This is going to work for me. You know,
Speaker 4: I went triple platinum doing this. I'm not going to
Speaker 4: try a different style like he's in everyone's saying don't
Speaker 4: do this. He has help, you know, like people feel
Speaker 4: like indebted to him, and you can't imagine the people
Speaker 4: that are within his yoke right that feel like I'm
Speaker 4: going to help Paul, right, People that like they could
Speaker 4: be career suicide and they don't even have to really
Speaker 4: worry about it because Paul, Paul's versus enemy is himself.
Speaker 4: And you don't know what you were saying. Again, it's
Speaker 4: like his desire to win and also like not just
Speaker 4: win because now I'm like evolving the thoughts not even
Speaker 4: just him the win. He needs to win. It needs
Speaker 4: to be Paul, you know, it can't be someone else
Speaker 4: that wins and he goes because I don't know if
Speaker 4: he would have gotten away. I don't see a way
Speaker 4: he would have, but I don't know. He ended up
Speaker 4: in super max for racy ten.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't want to set the record for assist.
Speaker 2: No. No, I don't want to spoil too much, but
Speaker 2: just I want to bring this up too, because we're
Speaker 2: talking about the trials that he ends up being and
Speaker 2: Paul ends up being in where he's the guy that
Speaker 2: everybody's looking at. He's the defendant, and he does have help,
Speaker 2: like I think you talk about John who's a fellow
Speaker 2: attorney who helps him, and then Larry who's a criminal
Speaker 2: defense attorney who helps him as well. But before all
Speaker 2: that stuff, there's the main trial, the first trial that
Speaker 2: our FBI agent finally and you know everybody that she's
Speaker 2: working with, is finally going to prosecute Paul for this.
Speaker 2: I think it's a murder charge or an attempted or
Speaker 2: a conspiracy number. I don't know exactly what the charge was,
Speaker 2: but the crazy thing I just want to talk to
Speaker 2: you about is how on earth did the judge decide
Speaker 2: the people on the law side decide to just go
Speaker 2: to trial about the homicide rather than all of the
Speaker 2: criminal activity together because they I think they said, yeah,
Speaker 2: they told the FBI agent, you can't talk about anything except.
Speaker 3: For this murder. They limited the scope.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So and again that's like this that really makes
Speaker 4: you start to bow bowls in this legal system, which
Speaker 4: in so many ways creates a poll, right, Like he
Speaker 4: gets his power from this institution. If he were you know,
Speaker 4: laying bricks somewhere or I don't know, like a football coach, like,
Speaker 4: would he be able to manifest his power. Maybe this
Speaker 4: thing is in most people, but we can't access it. Right.
Speaker 4: That's another thing about like crime is opportunity, right, Like
Speaker 4: the ability to go do it and people that like
Speaker 4: fuelly doing that. So when we talk about these like
Speaker 4: huge you know criminal you know fortune five hundred CEOs
Speaker 4: and you know the one percent that are like moving
Speaker 4: things around, you need opportunity to do that. You need
Speaker 4: systems at play that you can't fight too hard to
Speaker 4: do it. You know, obviously there's legal loopholes, et cetera.
Speaker 4: But like you ultimately need the run way to take off,
Speaker 4: and that, to me is a perfect example of how,
Speaker 4: like I think, like how confusing and flawed this system is,
Speaker 4: with like archaic ideas of like what makes sense to
Speaker 4: the point where like they're all actually working against each
Speaker 4: other but also working in concert with each.
Speaker 3: Other in a really weird way and pushing each other too,
Speaker 3: like enabling. I think that's a brilliant point. The system
Speaker 3: is creating. The system demands a Paul.
Speaker 4: And when you get to it, it's like, okay, if
Speaker 4: system demand, yeah, system demands, what does that ask with Sean? Right?
Speaker 4: What does that ask of the FBI? You know, there
Speaker 4: was like heavy conversations we were making this of like
Speaker 4: you know, it was Sean a good character, right, Like
Speaker 4: is she a good person? It's like that's her job, okay,
Speaker 4: but like why does that job exist?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Or I remember once I was waiting on the on
Speaker 4: the subwebs with my boy, and uh, you know, they're
Speaker 4: like the undercover cops in New York City always gonna
Speaker 4: be funny because they're always wearing this very cliched outfit.
Speaker 4: It's always like sports jersey nighties, you know, like baseball
Speaker 4: cap turned backwards, and I'm like.
Speaker 2: All right, but is that real Jakes? Like you can
Speaker 2: kind of you can kind of point them out literally.
Speaker 3: Know they're the guy from the nineties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: But what if that's just how I dress Jinks and
Speaker 2: I just like walking around New York like.
Speaker 4: That eventually you'll become a cop and you'll be untouchable.
Speaker 4: You know, like actually the secret way to get by
Speaker 4: undercover cops if you dress like an undercover cop, like
Speaker 4: you have to kind of meet them where they're at.
Speaker 4: But you know, it's like it's like my boy was like, yo,
Speaker 4: I feel like undercover cops. I feel like that's cheating.
Speaker 4: And I was like, man, you know, like I never
Speaker 4: never even engage with that idea before. He's like, I
Speaker 4: feel like that's not fair, Like they should be cops
Speaker 4: and everyone and the people should be criminals. I was like,
Speaker 4: all right, but what this system asks you to do?
Speaker 4: And for Sean, you know, it's like she gets a chemo,
Speaker 4: so either having a gun on you or being kicked
Speaker 4: at the drug sales is illegal or is it? What
Speaker 4: in this case, chemo now becomes a tool in the system. Sure,
Speaker 4: that's her job, but like, why do why is there
Speaker 4: a job where Chemo doesn't just serve time and present
Speaker 4: him as options where like okay with them, like what
Speaker 4: five years, three years, two years, whatever it was, If
Speaker 4: that's the crime and that's the time, Okay, you know
Speaker 4: that's a whole ob argument. But now he's a player
Speaker 4: in your system and there's no world that this ends up. Yeah, well, then.
Speaker 2: Isn't it the same on either side, Like whether or
Speaker 2: not you end up in Paul's fear of influence or
Speaker 2: the FBI's fhear of influence, you are continually getting played
Speaker 2: by a system, and now you are just an integral
Speaker 2: part of that system. No excuse me, you are a
Speaker 2: tiny part of that system and non integral at all
Speaker 2: to its functioning, because anybody else could be you in
Speaker 2: that scenario.
Speaker 3: Cars still need gas regardless of which direction they're driving
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 4: They're fuel for the system and both and when you
Speaker 4: really think about it, neither system that what it portrays
Speaker 4: to do is doing what it does. Like so we're
Speaker 4: supposed to end these like drug dealers that are like
Speaker 4: taking over the city, but Chemo is worth and cost.
Speaker 4: Is he not a citizen of the city like you know,
Speaker 4: like or Paul is supposed to be representing you know,
Speaker 4: his client. But in the world of that, the client
Speaker 4: who stabbed his wife, you know, I forget the name,
Speaker 4: but you know he stabs his wife, so she's already
Speaker 4: been a victim. The daughter gets caught up because he
Speaker 4: manipulates the daughter at a young age to testify against
Speaker 4: the mom. It's like there's no no one's doing what
Speaker 4: they say they're doing, right. I'm like watching the news
Speaker 4: and it's all these like FDA rollbacks and like they're
Speaker 4: like all these sort of issues with food, and I
Speaker 4: was just like, man like this, like let's say XYZ
Speaker 4: Restaurants has been selling as burgers what they're killing people
Speaker 4: or they're unhealthy. It's like, you're now, the moment that happens,
Speaker 4: this is wrong. We're like he sell as tires and
Speaker 4: the tires are like stripping on the road. Like the
Speaker 4: moment this happens, you are not competing the mission at hand,
Speaker 4: but goes back to the original point from earlier. The
Speaker 4: mission at hand is waning, not making the safest tires
Speaker 4: or the burgers that are edible, or getting people, arresting
Speaker 4: people for their crimes, or getting people off of outside
Speaker 4: of the legal like you know, yop it's uh just winning, you.
Speaker 2: Know, bores head Ham.
Speaker 3: Sorry for the for the record, that's uh, that's the
Speaker 3: Vales family, right, Yeah, we're talking about this taping. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and and Jinks here, we obviously want to go further
Speaker 3: in depth, but we don't want to spoil too much
Speaker 3: of the show. Uh, as you can tell, folks, Matt
Speaker 3: Knowle and yours truly going by Ben for these purposes, h.
Speaker 3: We have, we have listened to the show. We are
Speaker 3: deep into this and I think one of the most
Speaker 3: fascinating things that we've we've encountered in this conversation is
Speaker 3: a deeper uh exploration, like we're philosophical at this point
Speaker 3: about how the system is created. Uh. The show is
Speaker 3: available now wherever you find your favorite podcast. As we say, Jinks,
Speaker 3: we have to ask you, what do you hope people
Speaker 3: take away from Criminal Attorney Man.
Speaker 4: I think that like true crime in itself is involving right,
Speaker 4: Like I think it's like before it was sort of
Speaker 4: like that find the bad guy or when you watch
Speaker 4: a even like if you watch like Dahmer, right, it's
Speaker 4: like he's one bad guy, right, and everyone's like trying
Speaker 4: to find this person and catch him. No, he's the
Speaker 4: bad guy, but like you have to find them. I
Speaker 4: think it's sort a true primelem is evolving. You're finding
Speaker 4: that there's much more I think you guys need the
Speaker 4: word gradient earlier. There's much more shade of grey, right,
Speaker 4: there's so many more people that are involved that criminals
Speaker 4: running league with each other, even if they're on opposite
Speaker 4: sides of the table. And you know this show, you know,
Speaker 4: thinking about the shard did prior to this with is
Speaker 4: conviction and then this one criminal attorney, I realized, like
Speaker 4: how you know, it's like HBO, I'll do like a
Speaker 4: spin off series like a I gonna do Game of Thrones.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be the House of Dragons. If you have
Speaker 4: a show like you find one subject in true crimes,
Speaker 4: probably a spin off of characters that are related to
Speaker 4: that crime, just because like, okay, we caught the bad guy,
Speaker 4: all right, next season, what did you do it to catch?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: So I think I hope people see that that, like
Speaker 4: chron is not a binary, it's it's it's a spectrum,
Speaker 4: you know, and like how we justify wem to sit
Speaker 4: on that spectrum, especially when we want opposite sides of it?
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Wow, well, it's been a tremendous pleasure talking to you, Jinks.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate all the work you've done. Great times.
Speaker 2: It does make me just worried.
Speaker 4: I don't know why.
Speaker 2: The show just makes me worried.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just like, this is what we're all doing.
Speaker 3: All right, Cool, that's good New Jersey.
Speaker 4: That's the other thing is like this show should make
Speaker 4: you book a trip to go to Newark, New Jersey.
Speaker 4: But no, it does, like, uh, the show's entertaining. But
Speaker 4: if you're if you're like me, I know, my recording
Speaker 4: producer is a man named Chris, and he's excellent to
Speaker 4: work with. But Chris, I was like, Chris, we're attacking
Speaker 4: twenty minutes on every session, so I can like share
Speaker 4: my fears, you know, like we're living in a wild world,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: And we have only touched on very briefly some of
Speaker 3: your many other projects, Jinks. We've got to say, for
Speaker 3: anybody who has somehow been under a rock, you do
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff. We didn't even mention rap Cavir.
Speaker 3: We haven't even talked about the what is terminators the
Speaker 3: terminator high Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was
Speaker 3: looking at those as well. Where can people go to
Speaker 3: learn more about your work? In addition to Criminal Attorney.
Speaker 4: Man, if you are sounds weird because like I kind
Speaker 4: of jumped all these different things. I'd like, let's telling
Speaker 4: someone of the day. I was like, I'm not like
Speaker 4: a cowboy like ride in town. You know, I do
Speaker 4: my thing and then I just ride off to the
Speaker 4: next town. But yeah, it feels honest sad to say Instagram,
Speaker 4: you know, like find me on Instagram, But yeah, you
Speaker 4: can find me Instagram at Brandon Jinks b R and
Speaker 4: Don Jay and X. If you are old than twenty four,
Speaker 4: you can actually use a website and it's Brandon Dashchinks
Speaker 4: dot com. But yeah, I try to just bounce around
Speaker 4: and pick up the following people call and get to
Speaker 4: boodsciting stuff like.
Speaker 3: This, what a ride, folks. Criminal Attorney by Wondery available
Speaker 3: now wherever you find your favorite shows. We're not blowing smoke.
Speaker 3: Jinks does many, many things, and I have to say
Speaker 3: I was tremendously impressed with the philosophical caliber of our conversation.
Speaker 5: Well, and the generosity of him and his thoughts and
Speaker 5: his time.
Speaker 6: Given how much stuff he does have going on right,
Speaker 6: kudos for that, and we really appreciate you joining us Jinks.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Hey, if you want to do your own
Speaker 2: research after listening to Criminal Attorney, which is from Wondery
Speaker 2: by the way, search for Paul pa u l W
Speaker 2: berg Grin, which is kind of a weird thing to
Speaker 2: start saying as you like, first say it out loud.
Speaker 2: It's spelled b E R g r i N.
Speaker 3: And if you want to see some more recent projects
Speaker 3: from our friend Jinks, check out Black Twitter, a people's History.
Speaker 3: There's so much more to this story of Paul Bergrind
Speaker 3: and there's so much more to the conversation. We'd love
Speaker 3: to have Jinks back on in the future. In the meantime,
Speaker 3: we'd love to have you join the show, folks. We
Speaker 3: try to be easy through email, through telephone. You can
Speaker 3: even find us online not the flex.
Speaker 6: Yes, join us online where you can find the handle
Speaker 6: conspiracy stuff, where we exist on YouTube with video content
Speaker 6: glor for your perusing enjoyment, as well as XFKA Twitter.
Speaker 6: Not to mention Facebook or we have our Facebook group.
Speaker 6: Here's where it gets crazy. Join up today on Instagram
Speaker 6: and TikTok. However, we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2: Hey want to call us? Our number is one eight
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. When you call in, keep it
Speaker 2: confident now, I'm just joking. When you call in and
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.
Speaker 2: If you've got more to say than can fit in
Speaker 2: a three minute voicemail, why not instead send us a
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every single piece of
Speaker 3: correspondence we receive. We love it when you write to us.
Speaker 3: Give us the links, give us the pictures, Take us
Speaker 3: to the edge of the rabbit hole. Will do the rest?
Speaker 3: Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back.
Speaker 3: We'll say, On a side note, I d owe some
Speaker 3: people a lot of emails. We're on it. Also apologies
Speaker 3: to paint huffing maniacs. That makes sense for one person,
Speaker 3: but there are many, many more adventures to explore. We
Speaker 3: need your help. Join us out here in the dark
Speaker 3: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2: Stuff They Don't Want You to Know is a production
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows