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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. We have something special

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Speaker 3: for you this evening, folks, a sprawling tale of true crime,

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Speaker 3: corruption and conspiracy, originating with oddly enough, one of the

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Speaker 3: key figures meant to help enact the law. This story

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Speaker 3: is so wild that we had to go straight to

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Speaker 3: the source to learn more, and so we are over

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Speaker 3: the moon to be joined with tonight's special guest, the

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Speaker 3: award winning journalist, host, writer, podcaster you've heard him orceived

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Speaker 3: him in everything, the man at the helm of the

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Speaker 3: new podcast, criminal attorney Brandon Jinks Jenkins Jinks, thanks so

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Speaker 3: much for coming on the show today.

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Speaker 4: What's up, y'all? What an intro? I love that, Thank

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Speaker 4: you all for having me.

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Speaker 2: Ben's great at this oh Man We're so excited to

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Speaker 2: talk to you, Jinks. We've been listening to Criminal Attorney. Look,

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Speaker 2: this is just spoiler on my part. I haven't heard

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Speaker 2: the final episode yet, so I'm all the way up

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Speaker 2: to five okay, and I am I got questions about

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Speaker 2: the end. I don't know how much we're going to

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Speaker 2: spoil about the show, because everybody can go listen to

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Speaker 2: Criminal Attorney, right, I.

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Speaker 5: Need to issue a spoiler alert if you do choose.

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Speaker 3: To True Yeah, truell countdown from EDA again.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but before we get into anything, if you don't mind,

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Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell

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Speaker 2: us how you got into this story.

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Speaker 4: Man. Okay, it's funny. I'm back here in Atlanta from

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Speaker 4: my school's homecoming, so a lot of friends are like, now,

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Speaker 4: talk to me about it. And admittedly I was not

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Speaker 4: aware of how wide and like just how big of

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Speaker 4: an audience true crime is. Like, you know, you might

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Speaker 4: be into like rap music, you might be into pop music,

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Speaker 4: you might be into basketball, soccer or whatever, but it

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Speaker 4: seems like everyone is into true crime, which probably says

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Speaker 4: a lot about us as people. But anyways, yeah, so

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Speaker 4: it's been interesting because people like, how'd you get here.

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Speaker 4: So I guess you can say, like my career of

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Speaker 4: doing this started like I don't know, man, maybe like

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Speaker 4: a decade ago, and I was just like a blogger

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Speaker 4: add a magazine called mass Appeal, so they used to

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Speaker 4: do like hip hop rap, grafeed and e skate all

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Speaker 4: that stuff. Well, yeah, it's like one of my favorite

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Speaker 4: favorite magazines back when it was in print. And then

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Speaker 4: I was working there as like a young like intern,

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Speaker 4: and then from there I transferred from there to like

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Speaker 4: a Complex. A lot of people that were working at

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Speaker 4: Complex were ex Massippealers, so they brought me in and

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Speaker 4: they were like, hey, you know I so you can

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Speaker 4: write here, but we're doing this new thing on camera.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, all right, I feel like Complex

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Speaker 4: has some pretty good writers. I don't know how good

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Speaker 4: I am, but if I go on camera, like a

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Speaker 4: B plus is an A plus because no one else

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Speaker 4: is doing it. So I was like, you know, I jumped.

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Speaker 5: On podcasting man, been there, been there?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, lower the bar, yeah, And I was like all right,

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Speaker 4: let me just kind of creep in here. And so

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Speaker 4: from there, you know, one thing led to another and

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Speaker 4: I started doing more on camera stuff, and then eventually

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Speaker 4: I got into podcasting. Uh, there was a huge podcaster

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Speaker 4: in the hip hop world, Combat Jack, and he had

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Speaker 4: like his whole interview series with him and all his

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Speaker 4: like his cast of characters. And then he transferred into

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Speaker 4: doing something that was more narrative based and it was Mogul.

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Speaker 4: So he covered the life and death of music executive

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Speaker 4: Chris Lighty, and I mean it went off. I think

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Speaker 4: that obviously narrative podcasts had been around, but I think

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Speaker 4: hip hop didn't really have one, and if it did

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Speaker 4: not from a figure I celebrated as Combat. But unfortunately

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Speaker 4: Combat had passed away, and he and I were really

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Speaker 4: good friends. And the people that were involved in that

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Speaker 4: were like, hey, we need someone to we're thinking about

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Speaker 4: continuing the series, Let's bring this guy in. And this

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Speaker 4: guy was me and it was a huge honor. We

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Speaker 4: did a season, well, we did like two episodes on

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Speaker 4: Combat which were really great. I learned so much about

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Speaker 4: his life. And then we did a season on Uncle

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Speaker 4: Luke in the Two Live Crew, which was you know,

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Speaker 4: parts who probably could have been on to be a

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Speaker 4: true crime show, but you know, it was really cool.

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Speaker 4: And then from there we did DJ Screw in Texas,

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Speaker 4: so we told these narrative stories about their lives and

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Speaker 4: then we kind of found this thing right at the

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Speaker 4: end where we combined some of the idea of Mobile,

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Speaker 4: which is music, and then brought it into the true

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Speaker 4: crime space on the show. That was a title conviction,

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Speaker 4: and so we told the story of Max by, this

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Speaker 4: New York City, New Jersey based rapper who got caught

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Speaker 4: in a sort of murder plot. You know, We're supposed

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Speaker 4: to be a robbery, and then the robbery got botched.

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Speaker 4: The person they were trying to rob got murdered, and

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Speaker 4: Max was sort of the person who orchestrated this. But

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Speaker 4: in that he was looking for a lawyer, right, It's like, Hey,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to go down for murder. I need to

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Speaker 4: find a lawyer. One of the lawyers that he crossed

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Speaker 4: paths with was Paul Bergrin, and so he meets Paul

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Speaker 4: and he's like, all right here, this guy wins all

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Speaker 4: his cases, you know, like then he had tried in

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Speaker 4: like a New Jersey courtroom. We should get this guy

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Speaker 4: from what I gather. Again, I didn't think my old

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Speaker 4: producer who brought me to this project told me about it.

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Speaker 4: But basically Paul offered his services which was like, hey,

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Speaker 4: maybe we should murder the witness and just spitball in here.

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Speaker 3: You guys, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: It's a quick fix, you know, it's for sure.

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Speaker 4: Look we can plead out, you know, we can take

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Speaker 4: it to trial or hear me out and close.

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Speaker 5: It's like that's that's a jump down the street right there,

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Speaker 5: and it's like, I.

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Speaker 3: Know what you're thinking, let me finish.

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Speaker 4: I wonder how it is, Like I wonder if it's

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Speaker 4: in sort of a you know, law and order like

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Speaker 4: esque room, like all just like dark oak, you know,

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Speaker 4: and it's like or if it's written on a piece

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Speaker 4: of paper and he flips it over and just says

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Speaker 4: murder you know who knows and then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or as we learn in the show, he'll take

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Speaker 2: you to a rooftop to have that converse, or maybe

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Speaker 2: into the stall of a bathroom.

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Speaker 4: Right yeah, yeah, or a restaurant Deddie owns, you know,

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Speaker 4: and Max declined. He ended up getting another lawyer named

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Speaker 4: Jerry Saluti, who seemed clearly in that and Max is

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Speaker 4: now he's doing time right now. I want to say,

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Speaker 4: he's in Bergen County Jail in New Jersey. So that

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Speaker 4: didn't work. Out, but he also didn't get caught in

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Speaker 4: a murder for higher plot. So anyways, that's how we

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Speaker 4: found the story. And so what I thought was interesting

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Speaker 4: about it was that I kind of came from the

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Speaker 4: music and hip hop. He had a moment where those

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Speaker 4: things intersected, and we ended up with true crime and

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Speaker 4: hip hop, and then it's sort of just true crime.

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Speaker 4: So our producer, Matthew Nelson found this story and the

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Speaker 4: nature just do the nature of producing our last one,

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Speaker 4: and he was like, Hey, this guy Paul is insane.

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Speaker 4: This would be a really great episode, a really great series.

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Speaker 4: We're like, yeah, sure, let's let's take care of the

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Speaker 4: one of hand. And then I get a call and

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Speaker 4: he's like, hey, so remember Paul. I was like no,

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Speaker 4: and then he told me. I was like, oh, yeah, him,

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Speaker 4: do you think we should do this? You know, like,

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Speaker 4: is he out? He's like no, he's in jails. All right,

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Speaker 4: let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, then we're good.

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Speaker 3: This gets us to the heart of the story the

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Speaker 3: first season of Criminal Attorney Jinx. Is it fair to

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Speaker 3: say that you didn't know all the plot twists that

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Speaker 3: would happen, because as I'm listening along, as all of

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Speaker 3: us are listening along, the story just gets crazier and crazier,

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Speaker 3: like Shyamalan after Shyamalan plot twist.

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Speaker 4: To say I didn't know where the story was going

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Speaker 4: as like an understatement because you hear where you're going

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Speaker 4: to end. And sometimes, you know, I think when I click,

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Speaker 4: like a true crime show on any streaming app, you know,

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Speaker 4: I just kind of click it, it's like very clear logline.

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Speaker 4: You're like, all right, this seems interesting. But with this one,

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Speaker 4: I was like, I know the end day, so I'm like,

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Speaker 4: how what could happen in between? That will be more surprising.

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Speaker 4: But how bold he is and the sheer audacity of

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Speaker 4: the decisions he's willing to make is like kind of

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Speaker 4: amazing but also really haunting. This is like this is

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Speaker 4: a human being, like you know, you could be in

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Speaker 4: the grocery store. And also just how it's the bravado

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Speaker 4: and how he's willing to say these things confidently. Again,

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Speaker 4: like from what we gather, he offered these services to

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Speaker 4: the rapper Max b like you have to. It's not

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Speaker 4: enough to do it, you have to say it just.

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Speaker 5: Like well you know what I mean.

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Speaker 6: It's like this is a hashtag not all attorney's kind

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Speaker 6: of situation. But it really does show you too, the

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Speaker 6: lengths to which some people obsessed with the idea of

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Speaker 6: winning will go. You know, this is like a glimpse

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Speaker 6: into an entire world, like through one person who's maybe

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Speaker 6: an extreme case, but it really does kind of make

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Speaker 6: my mind sort of latch onto this idea that there's

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Speaker 6: more cases like this, you know, And I'm sure you

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Speaker 6: know it's like when you boil down like any career, right,

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Speaker 6: like whatever your thing is or night in career, any aspiration,

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Speaker 6: whatever your goal is, what you'll justify to get there

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Speaker 6: is pretty wild.

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Speaker 4: Right, And I think like that's kind of what I

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Speaker 4: felt about paul An. I guess maybe a more serious notice, like, man,

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Speaker 4: you're like, these are like real people you're playing, you know,

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Speaker 4: these are like real human beings that he's just moving

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Speaker 4: them on his own mental board.

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Speaker 6: What's the level of sociopathy or dare I say psychopathy

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Speaker 6: that is required to win perpetually like that?

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Speaker 5: Because you have no scruples, because there's no point at

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Speaker 5: which you will say, oh, this is too far.

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Speaker 4: There's no such thing as too far.

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Speaker 3: Let's stick with that. Let's stick with that real quick

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Speaker 3: because we're talking about Paul. We're saying he's larger than life.

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Speaker 3: There's some really interesting things when you look at his

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Speaker 3: how he came up. You know, on paper, his early

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Speaker 3: career looks pretty prestigious. We're talking a major. We're talking

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Speaker 3: a guy who is working on the quote unquote right

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Speaker 3: side of the law for a while. And I love

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Speaker 3: the point about that slow slide into criminality. Right, No

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Speaker 3: one wakes up one day and says, m yeah, today

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna be the villain. Right, I'm going full on

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Speaker 3: this one. It's a slippery sloop. It's a slow gradient

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Speaker 3: of as you said, Jinx, justifying behavior, how would you

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Speaker 3: describe Paul to someone who had never met him? Like,

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Speaker 3: if they're about to walk into a room with this guy,

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Speaker 3: what do you tell them before they meet him?

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Speaker 4: And that's a good question. I'm just thinking, like, well,

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Speaker 4: what I do? You know? Yeah, it's tough because it's

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Speaker 4: like I always think it's like when you first meet

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Speaker 4: someone and it's like you get like that like kind

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Speaker 4: of minute like of like you know, just trying to

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Speaker 4: read them up really quickly. And I feel like falls

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Speaker 4: someone that very quickly. He seems dangerous at least to

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Speaker 4: me right, But I also think you cannot you cannot

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Speaker 4: remove the fact that when people meet Paul, they need

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Speaker 4: right they need they need someone to get them out

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Speaker 4: of trouble, and he's saying all the right things, and

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Speaker 4: people like that are scary to me. Like you guys

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Speaker 4: just like you're like, this is my life, you don't worry,

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Speaker 4: And you're like, I'm here because I'm worried. What are

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Speaker 4: you talking about? Anyone that just like you gotta right

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Speaker 4: size things, you know, So like if you're not right size,

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Speaker 4: obviously a lawyer shouldn't. He shouldn't be terrified. He shouldn't,

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Speaker 4: you know, and still some sort of confidence, but like

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Speaker 4: someone who's making it seem like he's just gonna make

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Speaker 4: this go away, okay, like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh jinx, you got a headache, Yeah, no worries.

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Speaker 4: You know. It's like the guys who are just like

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Speaker 4: nothing phases them, or that everything's bounced out right. So like,

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Speaker 4: if my problem is this tall and you're telling me

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Speaker 4: it's nothing, that balance is gonna come somewhere else, what

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Speaker 4: are you going to do to make it nothing? You know,

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Speaker 4: a way to put it. Maybe it's my own skepticism,

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Speaker 4: but people like that usually like if I were in

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Speaker 4: the chair, you know, it's like, Okay, I'm giving him

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Speaker 4: less details about my life and I'm ready.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Do do you see formative moments in his career?

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Speaker 3: Like clearly again he didn't start off as this character.

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Speaker 3: Were there crossroad moments people might call it with this

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Speaker 3: slide into criminality for sure?

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know one that you all just said

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Speaker 4: that made me He's like, oh, I guess that makes

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Speaker 4: a ton of sense what he's willing to do to win.

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Speaker 4: But as you all said it, it put to my mind,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, well, when he was with the US attorneys,

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Speaker 4: he was winning. And it wasn't until it wasn't even

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Speaker 4: that he lost the case. It wasn't until he felt

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Speaker 4: like he lost his relationship with you know, the fellow

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Speaker 4: like sort of yours attorneys or I'm call it the bureau.

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Speaker 4: That's when he was like, okay, guys, and I'm going

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Speaker 4: to go to this side and so in this in

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Speaker 4: this way, he has to rewrite winning in his mind.

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Speaker 4: But I also think like that then if winning is

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Speaker 4: your key, if winning is your key north star, then

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Speaker 4: that's just subjected, you know, like whoever you do it

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Speaker 4: and who you're winning with. You know, it's like if

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Speaker 4: I can't beat them, join them. Energy is that to me?

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Speaker 4: Is like, that's less about I'm here to do the

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Speaker 4: right thing. I'm here to uphold the law. So Noel's saying,

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Speaker 4: it's like I'm I'm here to win and there is

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Speaker 4: no right side to that. That's just that's just you.

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Speaker 4: But the other thing I'll say is that, you know,

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Speaker 4: apparently he grew up in like in a law family.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's like it's one of those things like as you

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Speaker 4: get older, like I grew up and I look back

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Speaker 4: sometimes like even in my neighborhood. I'm from New Jersey originally,

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Speaker 4: and even in my neighborhood, some of the guys that

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Speaker 4: are cops are some of the kids that were tripping

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Speaker 4: in high school. I was like, oh, so, like how

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Speaker 4: is everyone that I went to high school with that's

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Speaker 4: a cop? But like you are you? So we like

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Speaker 4: what are you are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 4: So it's funny how those lines blur or how closely

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Speaker 4: related they are for a thousand reasons. Maybe you want

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Speaker 4: to be a cop because things around you are crazy,

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Speaker 4: or maybe you want to be a cop because it's

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Speaker 4: like because of what it allows you to do. I

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Speaker 4: don't know those.

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Speaker 6: Because you were bullied and now you want to bully

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Speaker 6: literally everyone.

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Speaker 4: I think about it, and I'm like, I think about it.

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Speaker 4: To me, like when you have cops, extensibly, criminals are

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Speaker 4: their colleagues, right Like, they're in constant conversation with them,

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Speaker 4: almost more than their conversation with like any of us

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Speaker 4: on this call. So like, if you are a political journalist,

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Speaker 4: your colleagues are politicians, right Like, there is a dance

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Speaker 4: between the two of you. And I think it's hard

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Speaker 4: not to have some of the that ain't rub off

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Speaker 4: when those two fars touch. And I think for Paul,

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Speaker 4: someone who grew up in a cop family, he grew up,

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Speaker 4: you know, around police and also understanding like the military

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Speaker 4: as well, I think that he has an extreme sense

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Speaker 4: of loyalty for where that compass points. That's what's up

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Speaker 4: for grabs, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I want to I want to switch from Paul

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Speaker 2: a little bit to the other side, to the FBI,

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Speaker 2: because you in criminal Attorney, you introduced us to somebody

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Speaker 2: named Sean Brocos who is an FBI agent that you

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Speaker 2: got to listen to the show to understand this. But

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Speaker 2: it has basically basically been eyeing Paul for a long time,

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Speaker 2: but not even necessarily Paul eyeing ways to kind of

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Speaker 2: rise in the ranks of the FBI. You describe how

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Speaker 2: she got in just on a whim, She like decided,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna go try and join the FBI

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Speaker 2: and figured out how to move up quickly. Can you

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Speaker 2: describe like the process of moving up through the FBI

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Speaker 2: and at least her attempt to do it by flipping

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Speaker 2: somebody low level and moving up, And then how did

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Speaker 2: she encounter Paul?

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Speaker 4: Well, it feels like one. I thought it was crazy

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Speaker 4: that she went from being like the bank teller just

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Speaker 4: right to the FBI. And I was like, oh, for

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Speaker 4: some reason, imagine that being like a lifelong journey. But

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Speaker 4: apparently you can do it in like seven years, which

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Speaker 4: is uh, just crazy. I don't know, is that like

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Speaker 4: is that okay?

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Speaker 3: But you know, right i'd look at someone getting their

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Speaker 3: their medical degree a little too soon, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 2: Just walk into a hospital, you know what, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to join.

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Speaker 4: Which is funny because Paul tries to pull that off later.

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Speaker 4: But you know, to me, it's like you need less,

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Speaker 4: you need like you can fly playing play less. You know,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but yeah, it's like you know, with

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Speaker 4: any sort of law enforcement, it seems to me it's

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Speaker 4: the cases that you make, right, like your ability to

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Speaker 4: turn over cases and then also like quickly and how

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Speaker 4: much those cases net. Imagine, like whatever the sort of

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Speaker 4: jurisdiction you're in, what their agenda is. Maybe it's a

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Speaker 4: violent pride, maybe it's drugs. You know, the FBI in

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Speaker 4: her era is probably just like what two thousands, this

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Speaker 4: is like I imagine, I mean probably post nine to eleven.

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Speaker 4: It's a lot of drugs, a huge oversight from like

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Speaker 4: Homeland Security is involved. So and also she's in the

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Speaker 4: metro area, so imagine there's a lot of competition, a

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Speaker 4: lot of dolledge circulating for her. She's playing in the

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Speaker 4: background of Newark, New Jersey, which is sort of in

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Speaker 4: you know, the background of the new city, so which

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Speaker 4: you know at the time. I mean, especially with Newark,

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Speaker 4: it's like, well, drugs are everywhere, but in Newark it

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Speaker 4: has sort of a connotation and baggage of that. So

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Speaker 4: for Sean, these are going to be the cases that

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Speaker 4: she makes, and if she can take down this drug

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Speaker 4: kingpin I believe I have named wilb Baskerville. If she

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Speaker 4: can take him down, you know, that's big and that

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Speaker 4: allows her to rise through the ranks or you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's maybe be a director, but it would

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Speaker 4: be huge news to take down a drug food in Newark,

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Speaker 4: New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and she goes out after a guy named Chemo, right,

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Speaker 2: who is kind of lower level, I guess, yeah, And man,

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Speaker 2: the story of his life is tragic, and you know,

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Speaker 2: you go over that a lot in the show. Just sorry,

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Speaker 2: I'm just talking like a fan right now. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to learn more about Chemo because Kimo's with his stepfather

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Speaker 2: when well, he's jumping for it and I'm just spoiling stuff.

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Speaker 2: So let's just say Chemo's an integral part of the show,

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Speaker 2: but he only gets to play a part for a

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Speaker 2: short time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, And I think what's interesting about this

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Speaker 4: is that the role Chemo plays, right, he's not a

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Speaker 4: decision maker, you know, he's sort of like kind of

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Speaker 4: pushed and pulled between all these people with more bout

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Speaker 4: you know, whether it's Will Baskerville, you know, Sean brocos

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Speaker 4: in many ways, you know, Paulbergrant and what he's not

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Speaker 4: going on over there, And then you know, you have

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Speaker 4: to also acknowledge that Chemo's made whatever decision, then the

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Speaker 4: circumstances he has up until this point when Sean Frost's past. So,

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Speaker 4: I think what you end up feeling with Chemo probably

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Speaker 4: more than anyone, and is like I said that, Grady,

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Speaker 4: and like the shades and bray of someone's life, and

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Speaker 4: like how you can be in this really uncomfortable position

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Speaker 4: almost from the start, and so like, yes, you have choices,

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Speaker 4: but what are your choices? Is it between a rock

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Speaker 4: and a hard place?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 4: And when someone that doesn't have that sort of that

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Speaker 4: environment or that that set of circumstances, when they come

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Speaker 4: into your world, there's no acknowledgement of what you've gone through,

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Speaker 4: what you don't have. It's just it's just opportunity to them, right.

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Speaker 4: It's opportunity for Shaw, it's opportunity for Paul, it's opportunity

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Speaker 4: for Will, you know. So it's a sad part of

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Speaker 4: the story for sure.

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Speaker 3: And with FBI agent Brucos, there's there's something that stands

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Speaker 3: out in a weird way. Ben. It kind of parallels

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Speaker 3: how you were telling us the providence of the story

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Speaker 3: how you all discovered the story of criminal attorney because

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Speaker 3: Agent Brocos is starting to look at this criminal defense

399
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Speaker 3: attorney that she at first does not know right from

400
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Speaker 3: a can of pet and she's going, hang on, every

401
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Speaker 3: time this guy takes a case, he wins, going back

402
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Speaker 3: to the idea of winning, and just for anybody not

403
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Speaker 3: in the legal field, you're not supposed to win all

404
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Speaker 3: the time usually, I mean they want to, and that's

405
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Speaker 3: not how it works. And so there's this excellent storytelling

406
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Speaker 3: in our narrative where we start to ask ourselves, how

407
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Speaker 3: can somebody and criminal defense attorney always seem to be winning?

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Speaker 3: Do you see that parallel? Because I feel like she

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Speaker 3: started looking at Paul Bergrinn similar to the way like

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Speaker 3: you guys discovered him, not necessarily looking at him from

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Speaker 3: the jump.

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Speaker 4: Well also too, it's like she's you gotta figure she's

413
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Speaker 4: also trained in a way to like spot not the weakness,

414
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Speaker 4: but spot like irregularities, and like she's constantly dealing with

415
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Speaker 4: people who either a aren't winning or B she's going

416
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Speaker 4: to hand them their loss. Right, So like if you're

417
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Speaker 4: if you're looking, my dad said something to me once,

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Speaker 4: uh as a kid, he was talking about like like

419
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Speaker 4: this this thribbing school and like kids that act tough,

420
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Speaker 4: and he's like, man, the kid who's like trying to

421
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Speaker 4: fight everybody, the kid who just goes around and it's

422
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Speaker 4: like his day is going to come because he's winning

423
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Speaker 4: too much. And there's a guy who wins over there

424
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Speaker 4: is going to look for him, right, And it's just

425
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Speaker 4: what it is. It's like levels of competition. It's like

426
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Speaker 4: for Sean, she's she spots that she can smell that, right,

427
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Speaker 4: It's like, hey, what taking down a chemo is nothing.

428
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Speaker 4: I mean to the point where Chimo's not doesn't even

429
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Speaker 4: register on her bill, Like he becomes a pawn. That's

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Speaker 4: not something that you take home. That's side a trophy.

431
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 3: You know.

432
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 4: He needs to be used to get a real winner,

433
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 4: you know. And so it says what competition looks like

434
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 4: and what people that play at a high level what

435
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 4: they spot and if you play in certain fields, people

436
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 4: will like smell that out. If Lebron drops sixty tomorrow

437
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 4: he's getting that random drug test, like they're like, hey,

438
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,680
Speaker 4: like you know, like tomorrow, just pee in a cup, man,

439
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 4: Like you know, if you go if you go up

440
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 4: to bat like we got the World Series coming, Like

441
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 4: if every at bat you're connecting, you're getting you're getting

442
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 4: the letter the next day, you know, like we're checking

443
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 4: and this is a game where we want someone to win,

444
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 4: but you can't win that much. And I think, dude,

445
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 4: that says a lot about us, That says a lot

446
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 4: about Sean. It's just like, yeah, well we how we

447
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 4: regard with you know.

448
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 2: Well, see, Paul seemed to have some kind of formula

449
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 2: figured out before he even got to the US Attorney's office.

450
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: So when he was back in Essex County and he's

451
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 2: a prosecutor, at least from what I can tell, and

452
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong here, jinks Paul had a

453
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: tendency to do favors for people that could do him favors.

454
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: So the the reason why he gets, you know, in

455
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 2: trouble and ends up leaving the US Attorney's office is

456
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 2: because he becomes a character witness in the trial for

457
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 2: two Hama side detectives that appear to have really helped

458
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: him win cases, right, which is like, first.

459
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 4: Off, dude, like that's the other It's like, Yo, you

460
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 4: could resist this, you could say no, but he can't,

461
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 4: you know, But yeah, that's exactly what he was doing.

462
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 4: He's playing both sides of the law, and I think

463
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 4: for him, we're just talking about like, let's say, if

464
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 4: not to start like Lebron drug test fumers. I don't

465
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 4: know why I said that, but you don't do that.

466
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 3: I don't know that that, babe, laugh out loud.

467
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 4: I think they keep it, you know. But it's like

468
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 4: winning within the confines of the of the game, right,

469
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 4: like are you actually winning in the courtroom or in

470
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 4: the Lebron case, are you winning on the court? Did

471
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 4: you do something before the game to win?

472
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 6: You know?

473
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 4: That isn't preparation, did you know? And I think Paul

474
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 4: understood that. I think Paul was like, hey, I need

475
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: to do something outside of this in order to win

476
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 4: the weather's trade favors, where it's to leverage people with

477
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 4: its intimidation, you know, Like I think he understood how

478
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 4: to grease those wheels and move those things. Yes, he's

479
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 4: very theatrical in court, and he's very boastful and has

480
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 4: a lot of confidence, but that's fueled by the fact

481
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 4: that he knows he's got you know, he's counting cards

482
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 4: over here, you know. So I think, yeah, I think

483
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 4: what he did outside of court shows what he was

484
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 4: willing to do. And it's now that you say it,

485
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 4: like I feel like I should look into this. It's

486
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,719
Speaker 4: like did they vacate those cases? You know, like how

487
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 4: many of those cases did they have to go back.

488
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 3: And look at Ooh, And we'll pause here for a

489
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 3: word from our sponsors.

490
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 4: And we're back.

491
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 5: Talking about folks like this.

492
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 6: It always kind of brings me back to an inherent

493
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 6: distrust I have of people that maybe make the idea

494
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 6: of being a defense attorney.

495
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 5: Their whole life's goal.

496
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 6: It just, you know, I know it's required for the

497
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 6: judicial system to function, you have to have people on

498
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 6: both sides and people willing to represent people.

499
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 5: That seem guilty as sin or whatever. But it just

500
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 5: seems like a snake pit.

501
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 6: Like I just wonder what your thoughts are on the profession,

502
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 6: you know, of being that kind of attorney, and like

503
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 6: if you have a balance from your research as to

504
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 6: like what are the good ones look like versus folks

505
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 6: like this.

506
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 4: Well, one of my my perspectives completely skewed because for

507
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 4: whatever reason, I just I watched Law and Order the

508
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 4: entire time, making this for like.

509
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 5: Not even for the helmuch it's like a comfort show

510
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 5: is what it is.

511
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 4: It really is, you know what I mean, sprinkle a

512
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 4: little homicide on top of you.

513
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. But by the way, just to plug here, everybody,

514
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 2: go listen to Law and Order Criminal Justice System. The

515
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: first season's out right now on.

516
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 3: The podcast net work or wherever you find your favorite

517
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: find your podcast skewed.

518
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 5: Okay, I guess I could see why, but maybe please

519
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 5: like elaborate.

520
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 4: Well, it's just like because it's always like that thing behind.

521
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it's a totally fabricated show, but it's

522
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 4: the conversations bepond that we're not privy to where the

523
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 4: person knows the person that representing is guilty. So again,

524
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 4: it's so what you're saying, it's just a it's about winning,

525
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 4: and the fact that we have a system like that

526
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: is pretty wild. Where the prosecution's like, hey, we got

527
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 4: to prove this person's guilty. They just did something terrible,

528
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 4: and the criminal defense attorney's like, hey, I know you

529
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 4: did something terrible. We have to fight a way to

530
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 4: beat you out of it. And I think something about that.

531
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: I can't call it American, but I guess I can

532
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 4: call it America. I don't know how these things working

533
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 4: in near the country. That's kind of America, Like that's yeah.

534
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 4: There was a question that arose when we were talking

535
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 4: about anti heroes at some point and why we wouldn't

536
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 4: feel like the bad guy sometimes, and I'm like, that's American, Like,

537
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 4: that's that's like cowboy culture. That's you know, really the

538
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 4: kid that's that's like American gangster. We woot for that.

539
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: Most that's also the revolving door of private and public industry.

540
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, like who better to watch the hen

541
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 3: House than the former Wolf? You know what I mean?

542
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 3: It shows the score.

543
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 4: The New York Times article I remember I found the

544
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 4: headline it circulates every once in a while where it's

545
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 4: like the CIA find it self not of like planting crack.

546
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 4: You're like, oh yeah, like you know, you're investigating yourself.

547
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, why not.

548
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: We've talked about on the show so many times drinks

549
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: just about how that American thing you're talking about where well, Ben,

550
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: we always talk about how the United States was formed

551
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: via conspiracy to rise up against the powers that be right.

552
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 2: I mean, that's literally how the country formed, and it

553
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: just everything then that we create inside it is this

554
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: way of rejecting and stuff and what.

555
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: We define underneath that. Right, So we'll say that something's

556
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 4: like fair, and if that's your starting point, it's not

557
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 4: until like it takes a long time to question what

558
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 4: fair is, Like you like that is not something you

559
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 4: think about and you're like ten eighteen. If you think

560
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: on eighteen, you end up on the FBI watched this.

561
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 4: But like if you start, by the time you think

562
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 4: about that using an adult of like, wait, what's fair?

563
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: He came up with it? We have these systems that yeah,

564
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 4: like a criminal defense attorney like what makes you good?

565
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 4: And are you good? Because you're like like what is that?

566
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 3: You know?

567
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 4: Like or it's just really a think it goes back

568
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 4: to what you're saying, you're good because you win, you know.

569
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, this gets us to another parallel. I would

570
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 3: suggest I'm walking down the street for this one. Is

571
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 3: there's something Colonel Kurtz about it, like in Heart of

572
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 3: Darkness or Apocalypse Now, because we see Paul Bergrenn he's

573
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: a prosecutor. Like I was asking earlier Jinks for a

574
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 3: formative moment, it sounds like the moment where he's a

575
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: character witness is where things start to turn on him

576
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 3: with his legal colleagues, the prosecutors. And I love that

577
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: point you made earlier about you know, technically your colleagues

578
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 3: in the pursuit of law are also going to be criminals.

579
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: So this this then, would this be his formative moment

580
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 3: because I believe he resigns from the attorney's office, like

581
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 3: just like Colonel Kurtz, his career looks great on paper.

582
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: I think it was working for Aldo at some point

583
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: for Samuel Alito, which is crazy, right right? And is

584
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 3: it simply that motivation to win that made him switch

585
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: sides and play defense.

586
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like I am just engaging with

587
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 4: these thoughts for the first time because I kind of

588
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 4: took it as it was as you guys started to

589
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 4: bring up the concept of winning. This feels really like

590
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 4: the theme. And I know it's like in the trail

591
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: if he'll do anything to win, but you guys are

592
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 4: saying it, I'm like, oh, like, yeah, he will. And

593
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 4: I think what he saw is other people that play

594
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 4: similar position on the court that weren't expressing him same

595
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: like they got in the way of his win, and

596
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: you know, he resigned, but they were pretty much pushing

597
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: him out. And I think it's one of those things

598
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 4: where you some of you are doing the same thing

599
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 4: as someone else, but you revealed you are doing it

600
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 4: for two different ways and for different reasons. And I

601
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 4: could see him easily going back and being like what

602
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 4: loyalty or when someone is like what we won, you know,

603
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 4: and someone's like, no, that's not how he's do it,

604
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 4: you know, And or look at all my other wins,

605
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: why don't they negate this thing? And it's like, hey,

606
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: you're where lawyers do, like we're a US Attorney's office,

607
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 4: Like you're a trip and like you you can't go

608
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 4: do that, and these guys, these are the ones that

609
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: you're going to do this for, you know. And I

610
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 4: think he ran it to the other part of like

611
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 4: the American culture, especially when you get into anything and

612
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 4: do the like the judicial system or politicians is like, hey,

613
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: we also have an image to upheat and you're not

614
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 4: really one of us. And this was like the moment

615
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 4: that we decided you're not one of us. This is

616
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 4: where we kick you out the country club. And I

617
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 4: think that that is something that we don't really lean

618
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: heavily on in Paul's story. But Paul is like the

619
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 4: shim humble beginnings. You know, he's he's probably from that

620
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 4: world where police and criminals occupy the same bar, you know,

621
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 4: like they all drink together, but they go out and

622
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 4: go do your own thing, especially you know, somewhere like

623
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 4: the Jerdans. So I think that I think he probably

624
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 4: had a root awakening there anyone else to be like, hey,

625
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 4: it's a lesson to learn, or it's not where I

626
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 4: need to be. He's like, fuck you guys, I'm gonna

627
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 4: going to.

628
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: Get revenge, you know, which you kind of like, as

629
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: I hate to say it, we're so programmed, but like

630
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 3: as Americans, a lot of us listening along tonight, there

631
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: are several people in the audience who went, I get it.

632
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: I get it. Yeah, I might not agree, but I've

633
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 3: been there.

634
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: I didn't know how bad a person I was until

635
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 4: I rewatched Breaking Bed, Like it wasn't until we got

636
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 4: like I saw where Walter started. I was like, oh man,

637
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 4: he really transformed. And then I was like, wait, I

638
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 4: didn't stop. I don't think I ever stopped rooting for him,

639
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 4: like you know, and I'm not.

640
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, yeah, well I love that Paul did

641
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: an East Coast Saul goodman. That makes me really happy

642
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: because that is kind of what he did and I

643
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: want to get so I want to stay on this

644
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: track of him doing favors for eventual favors in creating

645
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: basically a crew of human beings that he knows and

646
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: he can call upon and he can help out. I

647
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: want to jump to Jason Itzler.

648
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 4: I think is how you say his name? Yeah, this

649
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 4: is a guy that somehow.

650
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: Paul meets and gets to know. Because Jason Nitzler is

651
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: dealing with some legal issues. Paul meets him and figures out, Oh,

652
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: I think we could have a cozy little relationship here

653
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: and get into a business venture to talk to us

654
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: about what Jason Nitzler was doing and how these guys

655
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: formed a partnership.

656
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: Well, Jason's running essentially like this brothel, you know, New

657
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: York Confidential. And it's funny because I don't know why.

658
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 4: I'm like realizing all these things as you guys are talking,

659
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, wait, that that's the show we need.

660
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: Uh.

661
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 5: You knows he to lose perspective when you're in it

662
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 5: like that.

663
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like Jason is you know, he's he runs

664
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 4: a brothel, which naturally it's going to have you run

665
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 4: right up against the law for better or worse, because

666
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 4: I can'not even imagine his clients. Hell, how many people

667
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 4: were in there that we're supposed to be on this

668
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 4: other side of the law, right.

669
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: And also the name is a little on the nose,

670
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: but you know what I mean, like call it it's

671
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: something different on that.

672
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like you know, it's like having you know,

673
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: like you got like a drug den and like on

674
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 4: the athlete just says secrets like the.

675
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 3: You know you go to secrets. Sorry, folks, we're all

676
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: from Atlanta. Yeah, secret secrets are no fun.

677
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 6: It's like there was a story recently about like a

678
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 6: giant bag of drugs that was found that was labeled

679
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 6: definitely not a giant bag of drugs along those lines.

680
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 4: Of this, which like if I were a law corse

681
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 4: then I found it again, I'd be like you got that.

682
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this this is a pretty crazy story though,

683
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: Like this is you know, obviously we've got a little

684
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 3: bit of levity here, but a brothel being run out

685
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: of this location.

686
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: In escort service guys in Manhattan.

687
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: Sure, something confidential. I can't say it. I'm not the

688
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: judge but the the what what we see here immediately

689
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 3: kind of like how you're talking about our FBI agent

690
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: brocos how you get that spidey sense? Yeah, smell an

691
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: ill wind. This is a huge red flag to all

692
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 3: sorts of other related crimes. Right, And this is why

693
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: these guys Jason and Paul kind of begin, you know,

694
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: messing with each other, because, like you were saying earlier,

695
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: jinks people don't come to him unless they need something.

696
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: A few things here, Uh, smell an ill wind, I'm

697
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 4: stealing neck. That's amazing. Just imagine like describing someone else

698
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: that it'll win like that's oh my god. But I'd

699
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 4: also say, yeah, you know. And and also I want

700
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 4: to go back to that first question, what I would

701
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 4: say to someone if they met Paul, because as you're saying,

702
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: it's like, if you're Jason, oh, Paul's like me, No,

703
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 4: it's not. Paul is always going to have the upper hand, right,

704
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 4: because Paul plays in the heat. Jason doesn't get afforded

705
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 4: the benefit of the doubt. He was and you're a

706
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 4: confidential right, Will Basker doesn't get afore the benefit of

707
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 4: the doubt. None of his other clients get afford the

708
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 4: benefit of the doubt. That's why they get a lawyer,

709
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 4: because the lawyer supposed to have the benefit of the doubt.

710
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 4: But because Paul is playing you know, quick and fast

711
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 4: with their careers or not their lives, he's able to

712
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: kind of like permeate these lines to kind of transfer

713
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 4: back and forth. And what would you do if you

714
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 4: told your lawyer, You tell your lawyer's secrets. He's supposed

715
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 4: to protect you and say he sees his opportunity. So

716
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: it's almost even different than Sean because he doesn't have

717
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 4: to look for it. He's created a shop where you

718
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 4: come here to be repaired, and he's like, hey, I'm

719
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 4: going to repair you to the public cyber. We're going

720
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 4: to use the thing that's broken about you and I'm

721
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 4: going to manipulate that from my own game. So you're

722
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 4: never going to get away from this thing, you know.

723
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 4: It's I mean, it's like the mob. It's you know, like, hey,

724
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 4: Tony Soprano, can you help me get out of this jam?

725
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 4: He's like, I'm going to pay this thing, but you're

726
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 4: not going to get out of the jam. I'm the jam,

727
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like you work for me.

728
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 3: Now he has a very different interpretation of atturning clients

729
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: privilege because now it's his privilege to treat people as

730
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 3: a tool for a use, right.

731
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 4: One thousand percent. And he's, uh, it's Sean has a

732
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 4: whole other level of privilege because she's the law. But

733
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 4: Paul is much more nefarious because he's he's playing both

734
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 4: sides in a way that Sean isn't, you know.

735
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: Well, and he's now got a brothel which he can

736
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: use as that tool to coerce somebody into doing something

737
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: by getting them into a position right where. Oh well,

738
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 2: if I you know, if anyone finds out that you're

739
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: over here insert NBA player or you know, like high

740
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: level human beings that are rolling through New York Confidential

741
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: when it moves, what is it it moves to a

742
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 2: different location like in Manhattan.

743
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 4: Oh that is that he steals by the way he

744
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 4: steals it from Jason and reopens it himself, you know,

745
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: and then like changes the name slightly. I think it's

746
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: like New York Confidential, like incorporated. We're like, oh, oh,

747
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 4: classy cool.

748
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: You know.

749
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 4: It's like when you copy someone's paper and you write

750
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 4: the name on the top two and teacher's like, hey,

751
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 4: that's try try harder. But yeah, you know, he's he's

752
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 4: able to sort of manipulate all these characters. And what's

753
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 4: not lost on me is that there's part in the

754
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 4: story where we talk about, you know, the cops are

755
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 4: coming and they're watching this, They're watching the cops rate

756
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: them on a webcamera, and I'm like, guys, he's not

757
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 4: a webcam, Like, he's got stored footage of everyone that's

758
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 4: walking in this place. And you're coming here for secrecy.

759
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 4: You're coming here, you know, to be able to like

760
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 4: do of the things you want to do away from

761
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 4: it confidentially. Is nothing confidential about security cameras that record

762
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 4: what you do. And Paul has access to this, Paul

763
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: and his crew, so he's never what he says he is.

764
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 4: So to go back to that initial question of what

765
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 4: I would say to people that do with Paul's like

766
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: it's sort of all like them that meme of Jesse

767
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 4: and Walter Race, Like he can't keep getting away with this.

768
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 4: Paul up until this point will always get away if

769
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 4: he will always have the upper hand. Dude, you cannot

770
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 4: let your guard down around him.

771
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: You know he's big into insurance for sure, right.

772
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, before you jump away from New York Confidential, do

773
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: you mind bent Just I wanted to tell you guys

774
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: the thing I was mentioning off Mike like earlier before,

775
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: when you look at the address of where New York

776
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: Confidential moved when it got it was in Hoboken, and

777
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: then it moved to Manhattan. And when it moved to Manhattan,

778
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: the address was seventy nine Worth Street in Manhattan. And

779
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: if you look at that location on Google Maps, just

780
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: if you've listened to this show before, and then you

781
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: go to StreetView and you just turn the street view

782
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty degrees, you will see the AT

783
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: and T. Long Lines Building, also known at the giant

784
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 2: windowless building that's down there in Manhattan. That's the place

785
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: where operations Stellar Wind was taking place. When the United

786
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: States and the NSA decided they needed to do the

787
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 2: whole warrantless wiretapping thing during the Bush administration the early

788
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: two thousands, it was it was happening in that building

789
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 2: in that year two thousand and three, at the same time,

790
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 2: exactly at the same time that New York Confidential was occurring.

791
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 3: I think it's also really diplomatic that you're putting Stellar

792
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: Wind in past tense.

793
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: Oh no, when it was being enacted for the first

794
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: time during the Bush administration. It's crazy to me.

795
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 4: Then you imagine, you know, it's funny because even when

796
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: I found out where Paul is locked up, right, I

797
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 4: don't know spoiler, I guess went. I'll think, look, yeah,

798
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 4: he's in prison. You know, he's in super max. And

799
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 4: I was like super max. I mean, like does that

800
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 4: go for any murderer? And then I realized, like, oh, one,

801
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 4: you really can't let this guy near a phone, right,

802
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,240
Speaker 4: He's like he's compulsive, Like if he gets a phone,

803
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 4: you know, what will he do, which is like crazy

804
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 4: to think we can't let you get a phone, you know,

805
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 4: because you'll try again and you really can't help yourself.

806
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 4: And what when you say that, I mean, that's really crazy.

807
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 4: Like if I had a guy who you know, it's like,

808
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 4: murdering a drug dealer is not quitting in supermax, you know,

809
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 4: by almost on any standards, well like Taverath witnesses. When

810
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 4: you add them all up, I could see it, but

811
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 4: I think one has catched it to the US Attorney's

812
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 4: office just in that that timeline of him. It's like, no,

813
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 4: you're not getting back out. We're not, that's not happening.

814
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 4: And if you bring up the sella anything, it's like

815
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 4: there's a club across the street from work, Like.

816
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, Pads, because like you said, you have to

817
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: you have to do the most to get in supermacs.

818
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 3: And I love the comparison you've made earlier, Jinks, the

819
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: idea of Walter White, right, uh, a person who is

820
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: not ostensibly, uh necessarily physically dangerous, right, but who is

821
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 3: mentally a super villain. You can't let these people around

822
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: phones because every especially because they know they already know

823
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 3: the inner work prosecution, which is a tremendous power.

824
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 4: And Paul isn't like murdered anyone himself that we know of,

825
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 4: but like his crime, same as Walters isn't social engineering,

826
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 4: Like he's incredibly good at moving the pieces on the board,

827
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 4: and where someone else would see a risk, he just

828
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 4: sees a tight window to operate if he were. You know,

829
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 4: it's like how like athletes see the field differently, Like

830
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 4: they just see the style of play differently. They don't

831
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: know what they're gonna you know, like looking at Kyrie

832
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: Irving dribble, like he doesn't know what he's gonna do

833
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 4: fifteen feet away, but he sees an opening and then

834
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 4: somehow his learnings, his mechanics, his everything he's built around

835
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 4: himself allows him to shoot a gap or move this way.

836
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 4: It's all unfolding in real time. I think Paul is

837
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 4: a savant. I think he is. I think he is

838
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 4: that kind of person where like he puts something in motion,

839
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 4: he can't totally predict it. But how present he is

840
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 4: in these moments requires like either an addiction or fascination

841
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 4: with this, because everyone's got sleep, and this guy wakes

842
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 4: up in crime like at least up here.

843
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: You know that's the way, and seeing the field differently

844
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: is a beautiful comparison. There. It's somewhat terrifying comparison, but

845
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: I believe it's absolutely astute because the risk calculations are different.

846
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 6: Hey, let's take a quick pause in our conversation with

847
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 6: Jinks to hear a word from our sponsors, and then

848
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 6: we shall return momentarily.

849
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 5: And as promised, we have returned.

850
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 3: This is where we get to the next act maybe

851
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: of the slide, because when we're saying he's a savant,

852
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 3: which after listening to criminal attorney, I fully agree with

853
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 3: we're saying he's a savant. Folks, please do not misconstrue

854
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 3: that as us saying he got away. Because as talented

855
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 3: and as lucid and brilliant as this guy was, h

856
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,439
Speaker 3: it seems that things began to go wrong partially due

857
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 3: to uh New York Confidential. Oh excuse me, New York Confidential.

858
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 4: Ink. Yeah, you know, yeah, his second attempt. But I

859
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 4: think that's the other thing about winning, is like, while

860
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 4: you can be talented, that helps him manifest wings, it's

861
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 4: it's also the same thing that would's like, you know,

862
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 4: it's being an addict. You know, he's addicted to it, clearly,

863
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 4: because there's moments where he could stop, Like Jason Hitzler

864
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 4: gets locked right for New York Confidential. Paul says, Okay,

865
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 4: let's just run it back, Like what like this guy,

866
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 4: the guy you're supposed to be defending, he's in trouble

867
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 4: for it, and you said, you know what, this is

868
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 4: really good. I'm going to take this, you know, And

869
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 4: then he starts kind of losing his powers and his abilities.

870
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 4: There's a reporter and catches on and Mike wants to

871
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 4: interview him, and he tells a whole lie about being

872
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 4: he's given up law and now he's pursuing being a doctor,

873
00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 4: Like what like that? That's that's so far out there.

874
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 4: That's just such a verifiable lie. That's so dumb. It's

875
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 4: you're sitting in class and your teachers like, who has

876
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 4: you know, she's going around collecting homework and you you

877
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: haven't gotten that far. So you're like, it's in my

878
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 4: book bag, go get it.

879
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't think the next step.

880
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're just trying to survive the conbo.

881
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 2: You know, speaking of next steps, You've got all of

882
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: this money that you're generating, and people are coming to

883
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: you and they're asking you to do stuff with money.

884
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: What do you do if you if you're Paul and

885
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: you've got some ideas. Well, let's say you're married and

886
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: you've got a girlfriend too, and your girlfriend, you and

887
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: your girlfriend have a condo, and you also own a

888
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: restaurant called Isabella's and it's you know, somewhere there in Jersey. Now, look,

889
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: I haven't spent much time in Jersey except for Elizabeth.

890
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: I've spent some time over there just through an X

891
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: and one thing I know, there are so many amazing restaurants.

892
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: Oh in that part like that one. Yeah, there's this

893
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 2: one area like right in in New Jersey there where

894
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: it's like the best restaurants you've ever been to, at

895
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: least in my opinion.

896
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 3: Sometimes they're surprised if you walk in.

897
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. Some of them are doing other stuff,

898
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: not just making great food.

899
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: They're like, hey, when you have a food Oh yeah,

900
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 3: we got a couple spots like that in Atlanta. But folks,

901
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: if you have traveled in the right places or the

902
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 3: wrong places, you know what we're talking about, jinks. What

903
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 3: Bat's referencing to something that came up a little while

904
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 3: ago on our show, Because oddly enough, you know, the

905
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 3: common troop for this is if you catch yourself in

906
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: one of those restaurants on a good day, service is

907
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: going to be kind of slow and confused, but it's

908
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 3: often really good food too, which is the devil's bargain

909
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 3: of the whole thing. You know.

910
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're like, hey, if they raid, you know, we

911
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 4: used to have that with just living in Atlanta, you

912
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 4: know where you're like you go in the corner store,

913
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 4: You're like corner store or drug front, like which one?

914
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 4: You know, Like nothing's on the shelves like nothing on

915
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 4: the candy bars. Yeah, you're just like all right, guys,

916
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 4: like you gotta do what you got at least get

917
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 4: in the act of it. By yeah, you have like

918
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 4: some zebra cakes over here, skittle something like something. But yeah, man,

919
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 4: wait now I'm talking about food.

920
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: Isabella's barberg. How do you wash your money?

921
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 4: I mean one, it's like, definitely get rid of you

922
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 4: your confidential ink like that just feels so obvious. But

923
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,479
Speaker 4: I think it's that other thing too that makes paul

924
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 4: a true criminals, Like I don't know if he ever

925
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 4: expressed one and get out the game, but you do

926
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 4: need an exit plan. Granted he's under Rico charge, so

927
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 4: like anything he touches is like not it's it's a wrap.

928
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 4: But you know to yeah, like everything you touched there,

929
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 4: it's just a big fishing net over everything you've got

930
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 4: going and whoever else you've given money to, especially if

931
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 4: they're in your if they're within your employee. But a restaurant, sure,

932
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 4: but then you can't go there and like then continue

933
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 4: to do drug deals and make fits like you can't

934
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 4: like a laundromat, it needs to be a laundromat. You know,

935
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 4: you can't then be like, hey, it's a laundromat. Also

936
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 4: like it's a drug front. Like you're you're you're missing

937
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: the point laundering your money. You're just you're just buying

938
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 4: more robbery.

939
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: But yeah, Sean Sean said when they eventually went in there,

940
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 2: they were like kilos of cocaine just in the back

941
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: of the restaurant.

942
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 4: It's like, hey, man, like this is to distract them,

943
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 4: not to Now you've got an address, You've got an LLC.

944
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 4: What the is wrong with you? Like, why are you

945
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 4: doing this?

946
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 2: You know it was called Isabella's International Restaurant Incorporated.

947
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: But also what a what a great name? Like, you know,

948
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 4: it's like a bot of being Isabella's. Like it justems

949
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 4: like I haven't seen it, but it just needs to.

950
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 4: I can just see it written in script, you know, so.

951
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: A little Italy script. Yeah. And because he keeps, because

952
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 3: he is doing this thing that continually pushing the envelope, right,

953
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: He's also we could say, he's also playing some heavy

954
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 3: mental parkour, a lot of rationalization for how he will

955
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: make this feel reasonable. Right, we don't really have an

956
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 3: exit plan. We're just swimming further further into the ocean

957
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 3: open ocean of crime. It is inevitable that this guy

958
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: will get caught. It is an unsustainable, untenable plan. So

959
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 3: we talked about you know, coming in to check out

960
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: Isabella's encountering kilos of cocaine. Would you say this is

961
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: when the stuff starts to go wrong for him? Is

962
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 3: this where the teacher asked for his backpack?

963
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 4: Yeah? And I think this is where he's Uh, it's

964
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 4: that moment where you're digging through your backpack yet forgetting

965
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 4: doing your homework anymore. You're just like, I gotta do.

966
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 4: I need a better line, Like I need something better

967
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 4: than this, you know. But yeah, man, he's you know,

968
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 4: things start to unravel, and this is where like they're

969
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 4: catching it, not just like I mean he's on tape.

970
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 4: I think this is where his role again of winning.

971
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 4: I was talking to a musical artists recently. Other they

972
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 4: were talking about longevity and how they have to like

973
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 4: switch their careers up and how like they start out

974
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 4: doing one thing and how they look for, you know,

975
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 4: other things in their careers sustain themselves. And I was

976
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 4: asking them, like, hey, does winning hurt that process?

977
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 6: Right?

978
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 4: Like if you were selling out you know arenas, or

979
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 4: if you had a certain type of song grop making

980
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 4: and people loved it. Is it hard to move on?

981
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 3: You know?

982
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 4: Is it like, you know, Green Bay when they've got

983
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 4: like Brett Fahr and he's still selling jerseys but they're

984
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 4: not winning games. And you got this quarterback on the bench,

985
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 4: Aaron Rodgers, like do you let him in? You know,

986
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 4: Tom Brady? You know, it's like you had a great game,

987
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 4: but I'm sure there was heavy conversation between like do

988
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 4: we let Bledsoe back in? This guy won one game?

989
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 4: How do you make the justification against the thing that

990
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 4: was serving you versus where you need to go? So

991
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 4: I give those like metaphors and parallels to Paul because

992
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 4: Paul has won, right, especially in his world and in

993
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 4: his mind, he's won, and he's won by, you know,

994
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 4: representing people within court. He's won by sort of these

995
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 4: favors and manipulating all these different institutions. And in cruise,

996
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 4: I think that's what sort of in Bolden said and

997
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 4: makes him think that he's going to be fine no

998
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 4: matter what I mean, a student like represent himself in

999
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 4: court like, oh boy, that's.

1000
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 3: What's that old Mark Twain quote?

1001
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 4: Right?

1002
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 3: For an attorney? Yeah? Oh man, I still think you know,

1003
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 3: that's I don't want to sound too crass about it,

1004
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 3: but that is so damn balzy, you know, like that

1005
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 3: is something other criminals in this achelon themselves will not do.

1006
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 4: But he has been rewarded for that in his world, right,

1007
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 4: So it's like this reward systeing. He's been winning playing

1008
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 4: this quarterback and now the games asked for him to

1009
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 4: do some something different and he's like, nah, I'm not

1010
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 4: going to bench this play. I'm not going to bench

1011
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 4: this approach. This is going to work for me. You know,

1012
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 4: I went triple platinum doing this. I'm not going to

1013
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 4: try a different style like he's in everyone's saying don't

1014
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 4: do this. He has help, you know, like people feel

1015
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 4: like indebted to him, and you can't imagine the people

1016
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 4: that are within his yoke right that feel like I'm

1017
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 4: going to help Paul, right, People that like they could

1018
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 4: be career suicide and they don't even have to really

1019
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 4: worry about it because Paul, Paul's versus enemy is himself.

1020
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 4: And you don't know what you were saying. Again, it's

1021
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 4: like his desire to win and also like not just

1022
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 4: win because now I'm like evolving the thoughts not even

1023
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 4: just him the win. He needs to win. It needs

1024
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 4: to be Paul, you know, it can't be someone else

1025
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 4: that wins and he goes because I don't know if

1026
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 4: he would have gotten away. I don't see a way

1027
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 4: he would have, but I don't know. He ended up

1028
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 4: in super max for racy ten.

1029
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't want to set the record for assist.

1030
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: No. No, I don't want to spoil too much, but

1031
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 2: just I want to bring this up too, because we're

1032
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 2: talking about the trials that he ends up being and

1033
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: Paul ends up being in where he's the guy that

1034
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: everybody's looking at. He's the defendant, and he does have help,

1035
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: like I think you talk about John who's a fellow

1036
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 2: attorney who helps him, and then Larry who's a criminal

1037
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: defense attorney who helps him as well. But before all

1038
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 2: that stuff, there's the main trial, the first trial that

1039
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 2: our FBI agent finally and you know everybody that she's

1040
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 2: working with, is finally going to prosecute Paul for this.

1041
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: I think it's a murder charge or an attempted or

1042
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 2: a conspiracy number. I don't know exactly what the charge was,

1043
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 2: but the crazy thing I just want to talk to

1044
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 2: you about is how on earth did the judge decide

1045
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: the people on the law side decide to just go

1046
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: to trial about the homicide rather than all of the

1047
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: criminal activity together because they I think they said, yeah,

1048
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 2: they told the FBI agent, you can't talk about anything except.

1049
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: For this murder. They limited the scope.

1050
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 4: Yeah. So and again that's like this that really makes

1051
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 4: you start to bow bowls in this legal system, which

1052
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 4: in so many ways creates a poll, right, Like he

1053
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 4: gets his power from this institution. If he were you know,

1054
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 4: laying bricks somewhere or I don't know, like a football coach, like,

1055
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 4: would he be able to manifest his power. Maybe this

1056
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 4: thing is in most people, but we can't access it. Right.

1057
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 4: That's another thing about like crime is opportunity, right, Like

1058
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 4: the ability to go do it and people that like

1059
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 4: fuelly doing that. So when we talk about these like

1060
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 4: huge you know criminal you know fortune five hundred CEOs

1061
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 4: and you know the one percent that are like moving

1062
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 4: things around, you need opportunity to do that. You need

1063
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 4: systems at play that you can't fight too hard to

1064
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 4: do it. You know, obviously there's legal loopholes, et cetera.

1065
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 4: But like you ultimately need the run way to take off,

1066
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 4: and that, to me is a perfect example of how,

1067
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 4: like I think, like how confusing and flawed this system is,

1068
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 4: with like archaic ideas of like what makes sense to

1069
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 4: the point where like they're all actually working against each

1070
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 4: other but also working in concert with each.

1071
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 3: Other in a really weird way and pushing each other too,

1072
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 3: like enabling. I think that's a brilliant point. The system

1073
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: is creating. The system demands a Paul.

1074
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 4: And when you get to it, it's like, okay, if

1075
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 4: system demand, yeah, system demands, what does that ask with Sean? Right?

1076
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 4: What does that ask of the FBI? You know, there

1077
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 4: was like heavy conversations we were making this of like

1078
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 4: you know, it was Sean a good character, right, Like

1079
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 4: is she a good person? It's like that's her job, okay,

1080
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 4: but like why does that job exist?

1081
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: You know?

1082
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 4: Or I remember once I was waiting on the on

1083
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 4: the subwebs with my boy, and uh, you know, they're

1084
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 4: like the undercover cops in New York City always gonna

1085
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 4: be funny because they're always wearing this very cliched outfit.

1086
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:56,240
Speaker 4: It's always like sports jersey nighties, you know, like baseball

1087
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 4: cap turned backwards, and I'm like.

1088
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: All right, but is that real Jakes? Like you can

1089
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 2: kind of you can kind of point them out literally.

1090
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 3: Know they're the guy from the nineties.

1091
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

1092
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 2: But what if that's just how I dress Jinks and

1093
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 2: I just like walking around New York like.

1094
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 4: That eventually you'll become a cop and you'll be untouchable.

1095
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 4: You know, like actually the secret way to get by

1096
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 4: undercover cops if you dress like an undercover cop, like

1097
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 4: you have to kind of meet them where they're at.

1098
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 4: But you know, it's like it's like my boy was like, yo,

1099
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 4: I feel like undercover cops. I feel like that's cheating.

1100
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 4: And I was like, man, you know, like I never

1101
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 4: never even engage with that idea before. He's like, I

1102
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 4: feel like that's not fair, Like they should be cops

1103
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 4: and everyone and the people should be criminals. I was like,

1104
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 4: all right, but what this system asks you to do?

1105
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 4: And for Sean, you know, it's like she gets a chemo,

1106
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 4: so either having a gun on you or being kicked

1107
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 4: at the drug sales is illegal or is it? What

1108
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 4: in this case, chemo now becomes a tool in the system. Sure,

1109
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 4: that's her job, but like, why do why is there

1110
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 4: a job where Chemo doesn't just serve time and present

1111
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 4: him as options where like okay with them, like what

1112
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 4: five years, three years, two years, whatever it was, If

1113
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 4: that's the crime and that's the time, Okay, you know

1114
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 4: that's a whole ob argument. But now he's a player

1115
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 4: in your system and there's no world that this ends up. Yeah, well, then.

1116
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: Isn't it the same on either side, Like whether or

1117
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 2: not you end up in Paul's fear of influence or

1118
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: the FBI's fhear of influence, you are continually getting played

1119
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 2: by a system, and now you are just an integral

1120
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 2: part of that system. No excuse me, you are a

1121
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 2: tiny part of that system and non integral at all

1122
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: to its functioning, because anybody else could be you in

1123
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: that scenario.

1124
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 3: Cars still need gas regardless of which direction they're driving

1125
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 3: it is.

1126
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 4: They're fuel for the system and both and when you

1127
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 4: really think about it, neither system that what it portrays

1128
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 4: to do is doing what it does. Like so we're

1129
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 4: supposed to end these like drug dealers that are like

1130
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 4: taking over the city, but Chemo is worth and cost.

1131
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 4: Is he not a citizen of the city like you know,

1132
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 4: like or Paul is supposed to be representing you know,

1133
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 4: his client. But in the world of that, the client

1134
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,879
Speaker 4: who stabbed his wife, you know, I forget the name,

1135
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 4: but you know he stabs his wife, so she's already

1136
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 4: been a victim. The daughter gets caught up because he

1137
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 4: manipulates the daughter at a young age to testify against

1138
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 4: the mom. It's like there's no no one's doing what

1139
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 4: they say they're doing, right. I'm like watching the news

1140
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 4: and it's all these like FDA rollbacks and like they're

1141
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 4: like all these sort of issues with food, and I

1142
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 4: was just like, man like this, like let's say XYZ

1143
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 4: Restaurants has been selling as burgers what they're killing people

1144
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 4: or they're unhealthy. It's like, you're now, the moment that happens,

1145
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 4: this is wrong. We're like he sell as tires and

1146
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 4: the tires are like stripping on the road. Like the

1147
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,919
Speaker 4: moment this happens, you are not competing the mission at hand,

1148
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 4: but goes back to the original point from earlier. The

1149
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 4: mission at hand is waning, not making the safest tires

1150
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 4: or the burgers that are edible, or getting people, arresting

1151
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 4: people for their crimes, or getting people off of outside

1152
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 4: of the legal like you know, yop it's uh just winning, you.

1153
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 2: Know, bores head Ham.

1154
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 3: Sorry for the for the record, that's uh, that's the

1155
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 3: Vales family, right, Yeah, we're talking about this taping. Yeah,

1156
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 3: and and Jinks here, we obviously want to go further

1157
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,919
Speaker 3: in depth, but we don't want to spoil too much

1158
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 3: of the show. Uh, as you can tell, folks, Matt

1159
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: Knowle and yours truly going by Ben for these purposes, h.

1160
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 3: We have, we have listened to the show. We are

1161
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 3: deep into this and I think one of the most

1162
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 3: fascinating things that we've we've encountered in this conversation is

1163
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 3: a deeper uh exploration, like we're philosophical at this point

1164
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 3: about how the system is created. Uh. The show is

1165
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 3: available now wherever you find your favorite podcast. As we say, Jinks,

1166
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 3: we have to ask you, what do you hope people

1167
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 3: take away from Criminal Attorney Man.

1168
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 4: I think that like true crime in itself is involving right,

1169
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 4: Like I think it's like before it was sort of

1170
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 4: like that find the bad guy or when you watch

1171
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 4: a even like if you watch like Dahmer, right, it's

1172
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 4: like he's one bad guy, right, and everyone's like trying

1173
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 4: to find this person and catch him. No, he's the

1174
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 4: bad guy, but like you have to find them. I

1175
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 4: think it's sort a true primelem is evolving. You're finding

1176
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 4: that there's much more I think you guys need the

1177
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 4: word gradient earlier. There's much more shade of grey, right,

1178
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 4: there's so many more people that are involved that criminals

1179
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 4: running league with each other, even if they're on opposite

1180
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 4: sides of the table. And you know this show, you know,

1181
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 4: thinking about the shard did prior to this with is

1182
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 4: conviction and then this one criminal attorney, I realized, like

1183
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 4: how you know, it's like HBO, I'll do like a

1184
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 4: spin off series like a I gonna do Game of Thrones.

1185
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be the House of Dragons. If you have

1186
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 4: a show like you find one subject in true crimes,

1187
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 4: probably a spin off of characters that are related to

1188
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 4: that crime, just because like, okay, we caught the bad guy,

1189
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 4: all right, next season, what did you do it to catch?

1190
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 3: You know?

1191
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 4: So I think I hope people see that that, like

1192
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 4: chron is not a binary, it's it's it's a spectrum,

1193
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 4: you know, and like how we justify wem to sit

1194
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 4: on that spectrum, especially when we want opposite sides of it?

1195
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 3: You know.

1196
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 2: Wow, well, it's been a tremendous pleasure talking to you, Jinks.

1197
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 2: I really appreciate all the work you've done. Great times.

1198
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: It does make me just worried.

1199
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 4: I don't know why.

1200
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: The show just makes me worried.

1201
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

1202
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: I just like, this is what we're all doing.

1203
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 3: All right, Cool, that's good New Jersey.

1204
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 4: That's the other thing is like this show should make

1205
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 4: you book a trip to go to Newark, New Jersey.

1206
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 4: But no, it does, like, uh, the show's entertaining. But

1207
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 4: if you're if you're like me, I know, my recording

1208
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 4: producer is a man named Chris, and he's excellent to

1209
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 4: work with. But Chris, I was like, Chris, we're attacking

1210
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,919
Speaker 4: twenty minutes on every session, so I can like share

1211
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 4: my fears, you know, like we're living in a wild world,

1212
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 4: you know.

1213
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 3: And we have only touched on very briefly some of

1214
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 3: your many other projects, Jinks. We've got to say, for

1215
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 3: anybody who has somehow been under a rock, you do

1216
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff. We didn't even mention rap Cavir.

1217
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 3: We haven't even talked about the what is terminators the

1218
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 3: terminator high Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was

1219
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 3: looking at those as well. Where can people go to

1220
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 3: learn more about your work? In addition to Criminal Attorney.

1221
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 4: Man, if you are sounds weird because like I kind

1222
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 4: of jumped all these different things. I'd like, let's telling

1223
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 4: someone of the day. I was like, I'm not like

1224
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 4: a cowboy like ride in town. You know, I do

1225
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 4: my thing and then I just ride off to the

1226
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 4: next town. But yeah, it feels honest sad to say Instagram,

1227
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 4: you know, like find me on Instagram, But yeah, you

1228
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 4: can find me Instagram at Brandon Jinks b R and

1229
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 4: Don Jay and X. If you are old than twenty four,

1230
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 4: you can actually use a website and it's Brandon Dashchinks

1231
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 4: dot com. But yeah, I try to just bounce around

1232
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 4: and pick up the following people call and get to

1233
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 4: boodsciting stuff like.

1234
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 3: This, what a ride, folks. Criminal Attorney by Wondery available

1235
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 3: now wherever you find your favorite shows. We're not blowing smoke.

1236
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:25,919
Speaker 3: Jinks does many, many things, and I have to say

1237
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 3: I was tremendously impressed with the philosophical caliber of our conversation.

1238
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 5: Well, and the generosity of him and his thoughts and

1239
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 5: his time.

1240
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 6: Given how much stuff he does have going on right,

1241
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 6: kudos for that, and we really appreciate you joining us Jinks.

1242
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Hey, if you want to do your own

1243
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 2: research after listening to Criminal Attorney, which is from Wondery

1244
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 2: by the way, search for Paul pa u l W

1245
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 2: berg Grin, which is kind of a weird thing to

1246
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 2: start saying as you like, first say it out loud.

1247
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 2: It's spelled b E R g r i N.

1248
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 3: And if you want to see some more recent projects

1249
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 3: from our friend Jinks, check out Black Twitter, a people's History.

1250
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 3: There's so much more to this story of Paul Bergrind

1251
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 3: and there's so much more to the conversation. We'd love

1252
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 3: to have Jinks back on in the future. In the meantime,

1253
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 3: we'd love to have you join the show, folks. We

1254
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 3: try to be easy through email, through telephone. You can

1255
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 3: even find us online not the flex.

1256
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 6: Yes, join us online where you can find the handle

1257
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 6: conspiracy stuff, where we exist on YouTube with video content

1258
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 6: glor for your perusing enjoyment, as well as XFKA Twitter.

1259
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 6: Not to mention Facebook or we have our Facebook group.

1260
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 6: Here's where it gets crazy. Join up today on Instagram

1261
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 6: and TikTok. However, we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1262
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 2: Hey want to call us? Our number is one eight

1263
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. When you call in, keep it

1264
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: confident now, I'm just joking. When you call in and

1265
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

1266
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

1267
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: If you've got more to say than can fit in

1268
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 2: a three minute voicemail, why not instead send us a

1269
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

1270
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every single piece of

1271
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 3: correspondence we receive. We love it when you write to us.

1272
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 3: Give us the links, give us the pictures, Take us

1273
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 3: to the edge of the rabbit hole. Will do the rest?

1274
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 3: Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back.

1275
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 3: We'll say, On a side note, I d owe some

1276
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 3: people a lot of emails. We're on it. Also apologies

1277
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 3: to paint huffing maniacs. That makes sense for one person,

1278
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 3: but there are many, many more adventures to explore. We

1279
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 3: need your help. Join us out here in the dark

1280
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 3: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff They Don't Want You to Know is a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows