Speaker 1: Hey, that folks, Amy a TJ. Here. We're actually joining
Speaker 1: you just mid conversation. We have been sitting here going
Speaker 1: back and forth for about twenty minutes about what we
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about in this episode. Meanwhile, we just
Speaker 1: recorded a pretty good episode that wasn't recorded that would
Speaker 1: have been great if we were rolling on it. But
Speaker 1: we don't know what to do, folks, We're torn. I
Speaker 1: think we're recording this now, day after day after the verdicts,
Speaker 1: and that we're digesting it robes now and you and
Speaker 1: I have been going back and forth about what we
Speaker 1: make of Diddy, what we make of victims, what we
Speaker 1: make now going forward, of how we're supposed to view victims,
Speaker 1: and the way you put it robes any role they
Speaker 1: do play in the position they end up in, and
Speaker 1: as it does that make it any less of a crime. Actually,
Speaker 1: this is a mess.
Speaker 2: It is because I think, look, did he might be
Speaker 2: the only winner from yesterday's verdict and he's still behind
Speaker 2: bars and he's going to serve some time. But I
Speaker 2: think everyone else lost something. And I know if you
Speaker 2: go online and you google reaction to the Diddy verdict,
Speaker 2: you'll see and hear from a lot of women's advocacy groups,
Speaker 2: me too movements, victims advocates, and they all are well,
Speaker 2: many of them are outraged. They feel like this is
Speaker 2: set back victims' rights, This set back an opportunity for
Speaker 2: women to feel free and comfortable to talk about what
Speaker 2: happened to them, to even seek charges, to go to police,
Speaker 2: to speak out about.
Speaker 1: We can't argue all right? Are they right?
Speaker 2: Do they feel silenced after this because he was not
Speaker 2: convicted of the crimes against the women who claim that
Speaker 2: they suffered under.
Speaker 1: His vis don't we all and shouldn't we all share
Speaker 1: in their outrage? Should we all share in at least
Speaker 1: being in some even if it's not outrage, but in
Speaker 1: agreement that it's some kind of setback on such a
Speaker 1: high profile case, when there's such a high profile abuser
Speaker 1: that we have witnessed literally on video, that seemingly has
Speaker 1: gotten away with something.
Speaker 2: So here's my take, and this is what we were discussing. Yes,
Speaker 2: you're right, it seems like he got away with it. Yes,
Speaker 2: it seems like he got away with it. That he
Speaker 2: only was convicted for transporting mail escorts across state lines
Speaker 2: to have paid sex with his then girlfriends and it
Speaker 2: seems like he avoided facing punishment for what we all
Speaker 2: saw witness and what he even admitted to. Yes, when
Speaker 2: it came to violence against Cassie, violence against Jane, but
Speaker 2: that was the prosecution who created the situation that we're
Speaker 2: now all in where we feel defeated or deflated expectations.
Speaker 1: They set the expectation.
Speaker 2: Because if here was my issue the whole time, and
Speaker 2: seeing how it all unfolded, I actually feel even more
Speaker 2: angered by it.
Speaker 3: Why in God's name.
Speaker 2: I understand there'll be a legal reason and a political reason,
Speaker 2: but come on, why couldn't Diddy have just been charged
Speaker 2: with the crimes he actually committed, which was assault, domestic violence,
Speaker 2: illegal drug use. Those were things that he admitted. Those
Speaker 2: were things that were absolutely provable, beyond the shadow of
Speaker 2: a doubt, not just reasonable doubt. And those were things
Speaker 2: that the defense said, yeah, guilty is charged. Why was
Speaker 2: he not charged with those crimes? Because if he was
Speaker 2: charged with those crimes, and that's what people were so
Speaker 2: upset about, obviously, when they saw that video of Cassie
Speaker 2: venture Fine being physically assaulted under a surveillance video, when
Speaker 2: several people testified to personally witnessing egregious acts of assault
Speaker 2: and violence? Why was he not charged for all of
Speaker 2: those numerous times that were well documented.
Speaker 3: If he was charged with that, he would have.
Speaker 2: Either pled guilty to those or he would have been convicted.
Speaker 2: And then wouldn't we all feel good as women and
Speaker 2: as women advocates that he was charged and convicted or
Speaker 2: at least paying his dues for those crimes.
Speaker 1: I agree, we just can't make sense of we know
Speaker 1: and we have seen now what by all intents and purposes,
Speaker 1: has been described as a as a monster some of
Speaker 1: the behavior. And I don't think any of us don't
Speaker 1: believe the stories that have about these women.
Speaker 3: Too many people saw too many things, and you.
Speaker 1: Could talk about intentions and if they were there because
Speaker 1: they wanted to and all, but what happened happened awful,
Speaker 1: awful stuff. Nobody is saying did he is a good dude?
Speaker 1: But how are we now? And that's what we say,
Speaker 1: we are torn? How are we supposed to reconcile? I
Speaker 1: think did he should be in jail for the crimes
Speaker 1: I've heard described, But at the same time I can
Speaker 1: be comfortable with the verdict that is going to keep
Speaker 1: him out of jail for a long long time. That's
Speaker 1: the torn part of you want the guy to be
Speaker 1: in jail, but not for what you all charged him for,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't make sense that a guy who was
Speaker 1: a Look, I know, the shirts were cute and everything outside,
Speaker 1: what was it? A Freako is not a Rico some
Speaker 1: of the T shirts they were selling outside at the jailhouse.
Speaker 3: But that's what that kind of sums it up well.
Speaker 1: In one T shirt, Freeco is not a Rico.
Speaker 2: Wow, And honestly it's catchy and it's true. And I
Speaker 2: think that's what's feeling off for so many folks. And
Speaker 2: we can all point fingers here, there and everywhere at
Speaker 2: who was the bad guy, who was wrong, who did this?
Speaker 2: And whether or not Cassie and Jane were actual I mean, yes,
Speaker 2: they were victims of violence, they were victory of assault.
Speaker 2: But in terms of all of the things the prosecution
Speaker 2: was trying to prove and say about Didy and his
Speaker 2: enterprise and his co conspirators and his racketeering and conspiracy charges,
Speaker 2: that all just felt like a false narrative that they
Speaker 2: were trying. They were overreaching, They were trying to put
Speaker 2: this guy away for life.
Speaker 3: Why not just charge him with what he actually did.
Speaker 1: And folks will argue that the victims didn't come forward,
Speaker 1: they didn't come forward in time, and all of those things.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, the federal government isn't going
Speaker 1: to go after Sean Diddy Combs for domestic.
Speaker 2: Violence, then why not the state of Florida, Then why
Speaker 2: not the state of New York? Then why not the
Speaker 2: state of California? Where is their responsibility?
Speaker 1: Again, we covered this a whole bunch. Did we hear
Speaker 1: one report of one person calling the police on Sean
Speaker 1: Diddy Combs? I think the night of the Kid Cutty incident?
Speaker 1: Who call he called? It was a break in in
Speaker 1: my house. I think that was it. But nobody ever,
Speaker 1: in all the times, all the beatings, and all the
Speaker 1: people witnessed, nobody ever called the police to say, hey,
Speaker 1: Sean Combs is over here beating the hell out of
Speaker 1: his girlfriend. So we talk about now an outrage and
Speaker 1: people upset and the system has failed. Those jurors failed
Speaker 1: these women. We started counting when this trial started, how
Speaker 1: many people failed these women because so many people knew
Speaker 1: what was happening. From a security guard at a hotel,
Speaker 1: a security guard's wife even knew what was happening.
Speaker 3: There was a long list, Cassie Ventur's own mother, her mom, nurse, stylist,
Speaker 3: her makeup artist, and we.
Speaker 1: Want it's this person's fault and this person did it
Speaker 1: wrong and they got it wrong, and they shouldn't have
Speaker 1: charged this and that. But there is so much and
Speaker 1: I hope we do keep talking about it. It's so
Speaker 1: much responsibility we all bear in all of this, and
Speaker 1: how we talk about it in joke about baby oil
Speaker 1: all damn day on social media. It contributes to this
Speaker 1: atmosphere where become almost to sensitized to what this was.
Speaker 1: This was a case about monstras' violence against women that
Speaker 1: became something we couldn't understand from a legal standpoint.
Speaker 2: And further complicating this to your point that no woman,
Speaker 2: and not even the victims themselves, but all of the
Speaker 2: people around them who knew who claimed to be in
Speaker 2: fear of Diddy. And I'm not saying that wasn't true,
Speaker 2: but that was what they said. That was part of
Speaker 2: the reason why they didn't come forward. They were afraid
Speaker 2: of him. And there were people who just wanted to
Speaker 2: be around him and with him and liked the financial
Speaker 2: perks that they got from being with him, working for him,
Speaker 2: or at least being in his circle. So there were
Speaker 2: a lot of different motivations, but a lot of this
Speaker 2: is and was, and the only reason why we're talking
Speaker 2: about it is because of money. Money is the reason
Speaker 2: why did he end it up in court Because Cassi,
Speaker 2: even to Refine, filed that lawsuit, and if he had
Speaker 2: just settled with her before.
Speaker 3: That day went by, the lawsuit.
Speaker 2: Was filed, federal officials got wind of it, saw what
Speaker 2: she alleged, and then pursued it with an investigation.
Speaker 3: But this was ultimately about money.
Speaker 2: This wasn't about justice, This wasn't about the greater good,
Speaker 2: This wasn't about making sure that Diddy could never or
Speaker 2: would never do this to another woman. This was about money.
Speaker 2: And so that also further complicates this conversation. I know,
Speaker 2: and I understand how difficult, well I don't understand. I
Speaker 2: can imagine how difficult it was for Cassi even to refine,
Speaker 2: to get on that stand and to testify to these
Speaker 2: horrific things that happened to her and that she participated in.
Speaker 2: But she would never have been on that stand if
Speaker 2: she hadn't been seeking money in the first place. And
Speaker 2: a lot of folks. Then that just draws into question
Speaker 2: the motivation and.
Speaker 3: Where her complicity lies.
Speaker 2: It just it complicates this whole issue of the me
Speaker 2: too movement and why women do what they do and
Speaker 2: when and how and why they come forward. It just
Speaker 2: it creates I feel like, if anything, things got greater,
Speaker 2: well things got more confusing.
Speaker 1: Then take that on. If somebody would response to you,
Speaker 1: who gives a damn? She's a victim because she went
Speaker 1: through what she went through, even if she didn't come
Speaker 1: forward as a victim herself. It doesn't take away from
Speaker 1: and it shouldn't change anything about the conversation.
Speaker 2: I agree that she is a victim regardless, Yes, without
Speaker 2: a doubt. What it does is it makes it much
Speaker 2: more difficult in a court to prove anything. And that
Speaker 2: is the problem. It's about being able to prove something. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: it's yes anything, any sort of Look, the assault was
Speaker 2: not he said, she said.
Speaker 3: It was proven.
Speaker 2: But in terms of coercion, in terms of whether or
Speaker 2: not she was able to say no, In terms of
Speaker 2: whether or not she was kidnapped or coerced or forced
Speaker 2: into doing acts she didn't want to commit, that's all
Speaker 2: very difficult to prove when it began with a civil
Speaker 2: lawsuit that involved tens of millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is this is when I thought, man, we
Speaker 1: should just hit record and start talking, because you pointed
Speaker 1: this out, and it is for me the point you
Speaker 1: were just making the biggest what if? Ever? What if
Speaker 1: when Cassie, even terrified, went to Diddy and said, I
Speaker 1: have this book. You can buy the rights to it
Speaker 1: for twenty million dollars, sign an NDA, You'll never hear
Speaker 1: from me again. If he would have just done that
Speaker 1: on the spot, she would have been obligated to not
Speaker 1: speak about it ever publicly. And would we have ever
Speaker 1: found out about any of this about Sean Diddy Combs.
Speaker 3: I don't believe right now, Absolutely not.
Speaker 2: Could he have continued in his monstrous ways and finally
Speaker 2: messed with the lack of a better term, the wrong woman.
Speaker 2: Absolutely that's possible. But he had spent decades grooming women,
Speaker 2: grooming women, picking women who perhaps he found of a
Speaker 2: certain temperament. I believe he spoke about Cassie. He got
Speaker 2: them young, he said, she's mouldible. I got her exactly
Speaker 2: where I want her. So he was grooming women he
Speaker 2: knew to find them where to find them and at
Speaker 2: what age perhaps even to find them, so he knew
Speaker 2: what he was doing. But I think it could possibly
Speaker 2: have happened years down the line that the wrong you know,
Speaker 2: he picked the wrong woman who decided to speak up
Speaker 2: and speak out and wasn't going to take that. But
Speaker 2: short of that, no, I think he would have been
Speaker 2: able to keep doing what he was doing. So, yes,
Speaker 2: I understand you can look at it and say, regardless
Speaker 2: of how it came to light, regardless if it was
Speaker 2: about money initially, thank god it did come to light
Speaker 2: because this man needed to be behind bars, and I.
Speaker 3: Truly believe that. I believe Diddy belongs behind bars.
Speaker 1: But the person at the center of this, and again,
Speaker 1: this was the point I didn't just stop and think
Speaker 1: about until you hit me with it a few minutes ago,
Speaker 1: was Cassievento. Refine did not want this to come out.
Speaker 1: She did not want the world to find out about Diddy, initially,
Speaker 1: at least as long as she.
Speaker 2: Got paid, because she didn't want the world to find
Speaker 2: out what she did and what she participated in. And
Speaker 2: I understand that, and so how much of it is regret? Yes, again,
Speaker 2: want to make it crystal clear, it's not okay that
Speaker 2: she was abused and that she was assaulted, and that's
Speaker 2: all like, that's not.
Speaker 3: Even up for debate.
Speaker 2: But in terms of the freak offs, in terms of
Speaker 2: all of that.
Speaker 3: That's.
Speaker 2: That's something that she did participate in, sometimes maybe not
Speaker 2: willingly but other times yes, And that is in and
Speaker 2: of itself embarrassing.
Speaker 1: So what has happened now? And I guess it has been
Speaker 1: the trial that we have now turned to examining the victim.
Speaker 1: Isn't this what we always complain about that we examine
Speaker 1: the victim as if their complicated background makes the crimes
Speaker 1: against them any less egregious. That cannot be the case,
Speaker 1: and that maybe is a problem in this conversation because
Speaker 1: so much has been exposed, if you will, about what
Speaker 1: the girlfriends essentially were getting out of the relationship. Now,
Speaker 1: one argument can be made they were held hostage. Essentially,
Speaker 1: they were under his power, and they were coursed as
Speaker 1: the word continues to be used, but in just generally
Speaker 1: as a just watching it as a human being, you
Speaker 1: can't help but think that obviously it played a role
Speaker 1: in that.
Speaker 2: Of course, And yes, because no matter what the law is,
Speaker 2: no matter what your jury instructions were from the judge,
Speaker 2: You're still a human being who's lived a certain amount
Speaker 2: of experience in life, and you know some of these
Speaker 2: basic truths that are just within us all, and so
Speaker 2: that had to have played a role in the jury's
Speaker 2: decision to not convict Diddy on these more serious charges.
Speaker 3: That's a reasonable doubt, it is, and I agree with it.
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting because, having had now twenty four
Speaker 2: hours to reflect on the verdicts, I'm actually I'm actually
Speaker 2: very much like they aren't the charges I would have
Speaker 2: wished he was facing. But I do think the amount
Speaker 2: of time he's going to be spending in prison, which
Speaker 2: will be at least another year beyond the nine months
Speaker 2: he's already served, I think it would be safe to say,
Speaker 2: and maybe even a little bit more, you know, say
Speaker 2: he gets another even two years. There needed to be
Speaker 2: some sort of consequence and punishment for what he did.
Speaker 2: I don't know what his time would have been behind bars,
Speaker 2: to be honest, I don't know what state charges of
Speaker 2: assault and domestic violence, and I don't think it ever
Speaker 2: rose to the level of attempted murder, but certainly these
Speaker 2: were serious violent crimes. I don't know what kind of
Speaker 2: time he would have been looking at from that kind
Speaker 2: of a charge, but he he needs to be behind bars.
Speaker 2: He is a dangerous, violent person who needs to pay
Speaker 2: for his crimes. Without a doubt, I just don't love
Speaker 2: what he was charged with, and I don't love what
Speaker 2: he was convicted with, but I'm okay with the ultimate
Speaker 2: end of it, with the result of it. I guess
Speaker 2: that he's behind bars for a couple of years.
Speaker 1: And you just explained the whole in one sentence. There
Speaker 1: what being torn and this thing means to be happy
Speaker 1: he's going to jail, to be happy with the verdict,
Speaker 1: but be unhappy they was charged with this in the
Speaker 1: first place, to be unhappy that he's not going to
Speaker 1: jail for longer for doing what we all saw him do.
Speaker 2: It's so who's responsible? I mean, the prosecution has to
Speaker 2: bear a lot of that responsibility.
Speaker 3: And the question is, now that we've seen what happened in.
Speaker 2: Court, will prosecutors, will federal prosecutors, even state and local
Speaker 2: dace will they take notes from this case?
Speaker 3: Will they say, hey, let's actually.
Speaker 2: Just understand the jurors are smart, real people who get it,
Speaker 2: and they understand when we're trumping up charges or we're
Speaker 2: creating charges to try and get around something.
Speaker 3: To not actually.
Speaker 2: Charge people with what they with the crimes they committed.
Speaker 2: That would just go a long way. I think people
Speaker 2: are afraid to do politicians and obviously a lot of
Speaker 2: these folks are elected officials. But isn't that our biggest complaint.
Speaker 2: They aren't transparent. They don't say I'm sorry, they don't
Speaker 2: say what actually is.
Speaker 3: They try to create the.
Speaker 2: Smoke and mirror show, and it kind of treats all
Speaker 2: of us like we're stupid. And I feel like that's
Speaker 2: kind of a little bit what happened.
Speaker 1: Here, And apparently twelve people said, hey, we can't be
Speaker 1: fooled by it. That's I don't know. I just I
Speaker 1: hate that the conversation is going towards this idea, which
Speaker 1: is a legitimate one, that this was a loss for women,
Speaker 1: that this is once again a man getting away with
Speaker 1: crimes he committed. On the other hand, as an argument,
Speaker 1: he wasn't charged for the actual trial and we saw
Speaker 1: him commit. And somewhere in the middle there is this
Speaker 1: racketeering and this sex trafficking that is just hard, certainly
Speaker 1: for twelve jurors to reconcile. When I see a domestic abuser,
Speaker 1: I don't know how he translates to the CEO of
Speaker 1: a criminal enterprise.
Speaker 3: You just nailed it and that's why we're torn.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it does feel
Speaker 2: like some justice was served and just curious, Hey, if
Speaker 2: you guys want to jump on Amy and TJ podcast
Speaker 2: our Instagram page, we would love to hear where you
Speaker 2: all land on this and how you feel about the
Speaker 2: verdict and wondering if you're just as torn as we are.
Speaker 3: But we appreciate you listening.
Speaker 2: As always, I'm Amy roboch On behalf of my partner
Speaker 2: t J.
Speaker 3: Holmes. We hope you have a wonderful day and a
Speaker 3: wonderful holiday on the fourth of July tomorrow