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Speaker 1: From Mediators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana.

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Speaker 2: This is Cal's wee Can Review with Ryan cal Calahan.

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Speaker 2: Now Here's Cal.

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Speaker 1: Friends and neighbors. Welcome to this week's special drop. Cal's

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Speaker 1: Weekend Review, brought to you as always with my good,

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Speaker 1: good buddy and cohort Jordan Sillers, who has been busting

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Speaker 1: his tail on everything that we need to know. He's

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Speaker 1: a research machine and we want to cover the thing

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Speaker 1: that everybody's asking about BLM rules. In order to do that,

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Speaker 1: we have the Associate VP Vice President of Public Lands

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Speaker 1: at the National Wildlife Federation, David Wilms. David, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for being here. I know we hounded you

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Speaker 1: because we're trying to keep things up to date as possible,

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Speaker 1: and you made you made some time happen in a

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Speaker 1: pack schedule. I know you're a big guy, so thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for making this happen. And to start off,

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Speaker 1: could you tell us a little bit of why you're

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Speaker 1: at National Wildlife Federation and what NWF does?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you bet. First of all, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it and it's good to see you as always,

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Speaker 2: And you know I came to National Wildlife Federation about

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Speaker 2: five and a half years ago, after spending four years

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Speaker 2: with the as a policy advisor for the Governor of

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Speaker 2: Wyoming and before that as an attorney for the State

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Speaker 2: of Wyoming through the Attorney General's Office, working a lot

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Speaker 2: of these land issues from a state perspective, right, But

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Speaker 2: I have a deep seated love of conservation, big hunter, angler, outdoorsman,

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Speaker 2: and so when the opportunity came to join one of

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Speaker 2: the oldest and largest conservation in the organizations in the

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Speaker 2: in the country, with National Wildie Federation, it was an

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Speaker 2: opportunity I couldn't say no to. You know, big tent organization.

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Speaker 2: We have about I want to say, I might get

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Speaker 2: the numbers wrong, somewhere between six and eight million members

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Speaker 2: now across the across the country. We're in in communities,

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Speaker 2: we're in you know, in big cities, in rural communities.

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Speaker 2: We're we're working on education programs in communities. We're working

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Speaker 2: on getting people out into the outdoors for you know

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Speaker 2: that haven't done it before. We're about getting people engaged

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Speaker 2: in hunting and angling that haven't done it before. Big

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Speaker 2: Tent Conservation Organization started back in nineteen thirty six to

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Speaker 2: help actually to help pass the Pittman Robertson Act UH

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Speaker 2: and now we've grown into into this really large organization.

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Speaker 2: We have fifty two state and territorial affiliates as well.

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Speaker 2: So if you're in a state that has a you know,

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Speaker 2: state federation, like my state, Wyoming Wildlife Federation is an

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Speaker 2: affiliate of the National Wildlife Federation. So we're a we're

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Speaker 2: a big organization that that that does a lot of

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Speaker 2: of great things for conservation and and it's it's been

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Speaker 2: a great five and a half years, so that's a

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Speaker 2: that's a little bit about us, and and we've been

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Speaker 2: very engaged on a lot of these these public lands

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Speaker 2: rules that that you wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for that. It is I've been involved as

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Speaker 1: as a supporter of NWF and have got to go

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Speaker 1: out on everything from the fact finding missions to help

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Speaker 1: exchange or retire grazing leases in sensitive areas, straight up

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Speaker 1: fundraising with really interesting people at fancy dinners, and getting

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Speaker 1: to know the organization more and more over the years.

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Speaker 1: You know, I haven't been to the main Landing page

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Speaker 1: in a lot of years now, but there was a

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Speaker 1: point there where we you know, officially added NWF to

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Speaker 1: our roundup for conservation program at first light, and people

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Speaker 1: would give me flack and be like, oh, when I

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Speaker 1: go to the page, there's monarch butterflies there, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I can see how some hunting organizations would be like,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, it's just too much work to tell people

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Speaker 1: what to do. But therein lies the opportunity, right. It's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: monarch butterflies amazing species in its own, but also it's

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Speaker 1: a pollinator habitat. What's good for that butterfly is awesome

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Speaker 1: for big mule deer, bucks and sage grouse and the

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Speaker 1: list kind of goes on and on, right, So I

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Speaker 1: love that big tent, and we need more. This is

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Speaker 1: my my pulpit here, and it's just you call it

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Speaker 1: the oh opinion section that I'm just sliding in here.

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Speaker 1: But we hunters and anglers, we need to be in

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Speaker 1: the room with folks who don't hunt an angle and

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Speaker 1: appreciate the same things we do. And I think nwf

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Speaker 1: IS is a great org to work with and interact

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Speaker 1: with that provides those opportunities.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that. I always tell people wildlife

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Speaker 2: is our middle name, and it's it's not. It's not

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Speaker 2: game is our middle name. It's not huntable wildlife or fishable.

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Speaker 2: Wild wildlife is our middle name. And the work we

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Speaker 2: do benefits all wildlife. And so yeah, we have we

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Speaker 2: might have a monarch butterfly on our on our homepage,

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Speaker 2: but you're exactly right. The you know, monarchs migrate thousands

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Speaker 2: of miles over all kinds of habitat types and are

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Speaker 2: pollinators and uh as you noted, you know, from from

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Speaker 2: backyards to back country. Uh, you know, doing the doing

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Speaker 2: the work to have the habitat for for all wildlife

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Speaker 2: benefits all of us. And you know those of us

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Speaker 2: that like to get out and hunt that big mule deer,

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Speaker 2: go on a stage grouse hunter, or like me, you know,

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Speaker 2: live for an elk hunt. And uh, you know that

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Speaker 2: habitat is important. And whether it's whether your passion is

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Speaker 2: getting involved in in uh in in elk habitat restoration,

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Speaker 2: mule deer restoration or or monarchs or beaver uh like,

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Speaker 2: all that stuff matters, and it's all interconnected.

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Speaker 1: Darn right, darn right. And so we're gonna jump into

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Speaker 1: our big topic, right, which is this big rollout, scary,

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Speaker 1: confusing rollout of government rule regulation the b l M

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Speaker 1: has just released recently, and we'll get caught up to speed.

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Speaker 1: Here a series of rules for our you know, largest

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Speaker 1: collective landholding, the Bureau of Land Management. And we want

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Speaker 1: to know do these rules impact us as hunters? If so,

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Speaker 1: how are they scary? Are they good? Are they they beneficial?

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Speaker 1: And David to go into your past life as well,

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Speaker 1: like Wyoming is a state with a ton of BLM ground,

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Speaker 1: and when you were working for the governor, I know

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Speaker 1: BLM was a topic that was always on the table

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Speaker 1: because BLM is where recreation happens. It's where oil and

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Speaker 1: gas development happened, it's where grazing happens, and it's where

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Speaker 1: you know, off road use happens. If you like to

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Speaker 1: rip a dirt bike or a quad, a lot of

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Speaker 1: that happens on BLM, just like a lot of mountain

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Speaker 1: biking happens. It is the land of many uses. And

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Speaker 1: so you're you're our guy for better or worse. How

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Speaker 1: do you feel about that?

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Speaker 2: How do I feel about being your guy on this?

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Speaker 2: You know, I'll take it. I I sit here and

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Speaker 2: I recognize that the bl BLM is a land of

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Speaker 2: many uses and I benefit from it personally In so

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Speaker 2: many ways. Look, I'm I'm sitting right now at my

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Speaker 2: alma mater, the University of Wyoming, in a building called

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Speaker 2: the Energy Innovation Center, which was paid for largely by

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Speaker 2: revenues generated off of ceteral lands from oil and gas

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Speaker 2: and coal. My education was paid for by those, right

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Speaker 2: Like I I'm a direct beneficiary of that industry for sure,

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Speaker 2: and it's been incredibly important to keeping my tax rate,

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Speaker 2: my tax base low in the state.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: I raise my family here. But I always said something

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Speaker 2: when I work for the governor, when i'm when I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about landscapes, like, people visit my state like they

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Speaker 2: do other states too. There are tons of beautiful states,

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Speaker 2: but I'll talk about I'll mention Wyoming. People visit Wyoming.

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Speaker 2: This is always my opening opening line. Right, Wyoming is

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Speaker 2: a third by If if it were a country, it

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Speaker 2: would be the third largest energy exporter in the world,

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Speaker 2: behind Saudi Arabia and Russia. But people don't come to

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Speaker 2: Wyoming to see our oil fields or our coal mines.

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Speaker 2: They come to Wyoming to see our wide open places

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Speaker 2: in spaces, and our wildlife and our incredible natural resources. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, when I worked for the governor,

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Speaker 2: it was Okay, how do we how do we have

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Speaker 2: it all? Like the conversation was, we want to be

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Speaker 2: able to continue to meet our energy needs, in our

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Speaker 2: economic needs of the state, but we have to recognize

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Speaker 2: what also one of the big drivers in one of

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Speaker 2: the big economic driversus recreation and tourism, and we got

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Speaker 2: to protect you know, those places that people want to see.

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Speaker 2: So it was this in that role. It was really

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Speaker 2: that juggling act of how how can we do our

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Speaker 2: best to have it all right? And I think that's

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Speaker 2: what BLM is is, Like that's what they're looking at.

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Speaker 2: You know, they have a mandate with the Federal Land

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Speaker 2: Policy Management Act, you know of nineteen seventy six. That's

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Speaker 2: the that's their north star, that's their guiding document, that's

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Speaker 2: the that's the law that was passed that tells BLM,

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Speaker 2: here's how you have to manage lands like this is

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Speaker 2: these are your marching orders from Congress, and it draws

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Speaker 2: that multiple use mandate. You know, when you hear people

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Speaker 2: talk about multiple use mandate, and you hear Congress talk

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Speaker 2: about the multiple use mandate of BLM, you hear states

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Speaker 2: say that, you hear conservation groups say here everybody say

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Speaker 2: that that's drawn from that that language in that law,

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Speaker 2: the Federal Land Policy Management Act of nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 2: That's where they get it, and it's is constant struggle

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Speaker 2: between BLM and the various interests, interests that use those resources,

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Speaker 2: those lands of Okay, how do we balance those multiple

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Speaker 2: uses and what are they right?

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Speaker 1: And that?

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Speaker 2: So that's what that's what the BLM was grappling with

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Speaker 2: as they were as they were writing this what we

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Speaker 2: I think it's the Conservation and Landscape Health Rule, but

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Speaker 2: we'll just call it the public lands rule. Okay, how

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Speaker 2: do we balance all of these interests? Almost fifty years

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Speaker 2: after this law was passed?

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Speaker 1: And yeah, obviously that concern hasn't was there at the beginnings.

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Speaker 1: It was there in the middle, and it's there right now.

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Speaker 1: And we'll start with the rule that I think people

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Speaker 1: want to hear about the most, which when we covered

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Speaker 1: this way early with Tracy stone Manning, I believe about

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Speaker 1: this idea of conservation leases the episode.

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Speaker 2: To eighteen if anyone wants to go listen to that.

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Speaker 1: Hi, excellent, thank you, Jordan. Yeah, episode two eighteen and

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Speaker 1: this you know, so there's grazing leases there's leases to

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Speaker 1: harvest timber, there's leases to develop, explore, extract for those

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Speaker 1: resources that we develop and explore and extract for coal, oil, gas, uranium,

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Speaker 1: things like that. What the heck does a conservation lease do?

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Speaker 1: Now that that terms changed for this rule, But people

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Speaker 1: seem to be very concerned about this idea that you

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Speaker 1: could purchase or an organization could purchase a conservation lease.

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Speaker 1: Are you up to speed on this day of need help?

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Speaker 1: Uh define what this is and what it means for us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we can talk about it a little bit. I

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Speaker 2: don't think it will be completely defined until the first

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Speaker 2: one rolls out right, you know, every and I think

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Speaker 2: that's where some of the fear lies is. There's always

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Speaker 2: the fear in the of the unknown, like what is this?

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Speaker 2: Everybody sees something new, and you have there's a human nature,

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Speaker 2: this human tendency to have this visceral reaction of it's new,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm immediately going to put up my guard

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Speaker 2: and be worried about it. And I think that visceral

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Speaker 2: reaction heightens when it's the federal government doing it right,

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Speaker 2: you know, the the old Reagan saying of from the government,

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Speaker 2: we're here to help there's there's you know, there's that

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Speaker 2: skepticism in the back of the mind of you know,

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Speaker 2: what's really going on? What are the ulterior motives? Is

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Speaker 2: this going to lock me out? And you have so

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Speaker 2: many communities that are so dependent, as we talked about,

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Speaker 2: on these on these public lands for so many different things.

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Speaker 2: Some of these communities might not exist without the public

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Speaker 2: lands that help provide that economic support that anytime there's

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Speaker 2: some sort of a change proposed, people are going to

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Speaker 2: react to it in a potentially in a negative way

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Speaker 2: because they're worried about their own livelihoods, and understandably, so

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Speaker 2: I'd frame it like this, I guess a little bit.

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Speaker 2: What we're talking about here is a restoration lease. We're

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Speaker 2: not talking about going out and leasing land that then

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Speaker 2: you put a big fence around and nobody can come

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Speaker 2: in and use. I think the simplest way to describe

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Speaker 2: it is, we have about one hundred million acres of

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Speaker 2: cheat grass across this country. A lot of this cheat

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Speaker 2: grass is on our public lands, on BLM lands in particular,

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Speaker 2: and that cheat grass, for example, I'm giving you one example, right,

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Speaker 2: but that cheat grass leads to increased fire frequency, increased

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Speaker 2: fire intensity, it's having major landscape alterations. It impacts uh,

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Speaker 2: livestock and how many how many au ms the land

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Speaker 2: will support because once cheat grass seeds in the spring,

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Speaker 2: it's basically inedible, inedible and it chokes everything else out

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Speaker 2: and it's highly flammable. B l M has, from a

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Speaker 2: land management agency standpoint, has one of the leanest budgets.

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Speaker 2: You'll look at it and think that's a it's a

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Speaker 2: big number, but when you actually look at it, you'll say,

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Speaker 2: on a per acre basis, compared to other agencies, it's

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Speaker 2: not that much. And so when you're when the when

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Speaker 2: you have an agency responsible for two hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: five million acres and a lot of those acres have

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Speaker 2: been degraded over time, Uh, you know, for various reasons.

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Speaker 2: It's and they have an obligation under the law to

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Speaker 2: manage these lands and manage them for for health, you know,

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Speaker 2: for for wildlife, for watershed values, in addition to multiple uses.

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Speaker 2: They got to get creative and figure out how do

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Speaker 2: we do this? And Congress isn't throwing them more money,

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Speaker 2: you know. In fact, it's except for a couple of

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Speaker 2: infusions in like the Infrastructure Inflation Reduction Act, and the

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Speaker 2: Infrastructure Act Congress hasn't really it hasn't even really kept

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Speaker 2: up with inflation for BLM and not providing the resources

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Speaker 2: necessary to to do the land the basic land management,

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Speaker 2: let alone some of these restoration activities that could benefit

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Speaker 2: so many of the other users. So they got to

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Speaker 2: go a different route and get creative, right, And so

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Speaker 2: one of the ways to get creative is, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe we have to bring in some outside dollars, find

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Speaker 2: some partners to help us with some of this restoration.

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Speaker 2: This is the way I look at it. If you

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Speaker 2: don't like the positive prospect of leasing Congress fund of

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Speaker 2: the agency, right, but this is what we're dealing with

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Speaker 2: right now. And so the agency is getting creative. And

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Speaker 2: this creative solution is we're going to we're going to

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Speaker 2: have these restoration leases. But want to be clear, one

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Speaker 2: thing that they did, and they I think they responded

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Speaker 2: to public comment in this pretty well to really clarify

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Speaker 2: what these leases do. These leases have to be compatible

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Speaker 2: with other existing uses on the landscape. So before even

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Speaker 2: before a lease can be issued, So say say National

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Speaker 2: Wildlife Federation wants to go and get a lease, right

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Speaker 2: before a lease can even be issued, we put in

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Speaker 2: our application, we say here's what we want to do.

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Speaker 2: BLM's going to look at it, and they're going to

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Speaker 2: look at all of the other competing uses for those acres,

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Speaker 2: and they're going to say they're going to do it

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Speaker 2: a compatibility analysis, and if that lease is not compatible

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Speaker 2: with the existing uses, whether it's agriculture or mining, or

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Speaker 2: oil and gas or outdoor recreation, whatever it is, if

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Speaker 2: there's not compatibility, they cannot I believe the word is

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Speaker 2: shall not, you know, issue that lease. So the only

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Speaker 2: way they issue a conservation lease or restoration lease in

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Speaker 2: the first instance is if there isn't a conflict with

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Speaker 2: other pre existing users. I don't see there being any

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Speaker 2: intent to lock anybody out like they're they're they're actually

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Speaker 2: trying to say, we want to have flexible, a flexible

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Speaker 2: tool that brings additional resources on the ground to do

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Speaker 2: some of this restoration work and give it the time

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Speaker 2: necessary through a term based least to actually allow the

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Speaker 2: restoration work to happen, but make sure that it's still

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Speaker 2: compatible with other uses. That's a that's pretty innovative. And

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Speaker 2: and the other thing is that you know, if that

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Speaker 2: doesn't work, if we start issuing these leases and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't work. It's a rule, right, the administration can start

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Speaker 2: a new rule making and say that didn't work, or

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Speaker 2: you know, a future administration can say that didn't work,

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Speaker 2: or we need to tweak it. This isn't this isn't

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Speaker 2: chiseled and you know, in stone and hauled up a

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Speaker 2: mountain and shown to everybody to see of, like, this

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Speaker 2: is the way things are going to be forever, right, Uh,

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Speaker 2: you got to start somewhere, and uh, this is a

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Speaker 2: pretty innovative of creative way to try and get some

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Speaker 2: resources on the ground to help do the things that

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Speaker 2: the agency just frankly doesn't have the money it's to

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Speaker 2: do itself, but need to get done for the benefit

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Speaker 2: of our declining mule deier populations all over the West,

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Speaker 2: and sage grass populations all over the West and prong

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Speaker 2: horned population, like all of those things would benefit from

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Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. That's the kind of the long answer.

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Speaker 2: Sorry about that, No.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that to go way back the AUMs Animal

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Speaker 1: Unit month.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, yeah, sorry, I shouldn't have used an acronym.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard in your line of work.

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Speaker 2: I try not to. I try not to but sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's one slips in.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's great. It is a measurement of cattle on

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Speaker 1: the ground. And that's the system that we use to

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Speaker 1: say like how many cattle you can have on the ground,

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Speaker 1: your your least ground on BLM or how long that's

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Speaker 1: right and healthier landscapes, No big surprise here. You can

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Speaker 1: have more cattle on for longer, that's right too. And

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Speaker 1: these areas where we are fighting noxious weeds, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: there's been plenty of grazing operations that say, hey, what

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Speaker 1: what the heck am I paying for?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? No, you're you're spot on, Like it's how we're

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Speaker 2: paying this money for a lease and all we're seeing is,

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Speaker 2: you know, every year more cheat grass. How do we like,

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Speaker 2: how do we tackle that?

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Speaker 1: You know? One thing? And and like you said, and

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Speaker 1: I agree, we're going to have to see how things

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Speaker 1: roll out to see how they really we ground proof them, right,

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Speaker 1: we we see how they work on the ground. But

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Speaker 1: when the speculation of what a conservation lease could really

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Speaker 1: mean and could it be so restrictive that it would

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Speaker 1: be nobody can go out there like the preservation versus

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Speaker 1: conservation idea. You know, my knowledge is like, well, what else,

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Speaker 1: what other leases out there on BLM currently do that?

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Speaker 1: And it's like, unless it's a helicopter logging operation, a

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Speaker 1: open pit mine, you know, the things that could represent

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Speaker 1: real physical harm to other users, it's typically still wide

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Speaker 1: open ski hills. Oddly enough, you know, I know the

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Speaker 1: old Sun Valley ski area. There's a chunk of BLM

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Speaker 1: on there, and they can restrict uphill access due to

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Speaker 1: human the likelihood of human harm on certain ski days.

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Speaker 1: So I understand I think you should question things, but

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Speaker 1: kind of the level headedness is like, well, I don't

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Speaker 1: see how a big old chunk of sagebrush flat. They're

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Speaker 1: gonna come up with a way to say nobody can

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Speaker 1: ever go out there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could actually say, I mean you

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Speaker 2: you you raised a pretty good point of there are

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Speaker 2: multiple uses. There are uses on public lands right now,

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Speaker 2: actually a few that pretty much locked people out. I mean,

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Speaker 2: have you been to any new solar arrays on public

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Speaker 2: lands for example? You know, chain link fences all the

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Speaker 2: way around them, uh, you know, covering over big landscapes.

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Speaker 2: You noted those open pit mines. That's not what this is, like,

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Speaker 2: this is actually something that that is meant to to

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Speaker 2: create more habitat, to restore habitat, you know, help wildlife

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Speaker 2: pop populations, you know, make our our experiences when we

359
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Speaker 2: are out there recreating, make them better. Make grazer's experiences

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Speaker 2: when they turn their cows loose better because maybe they're

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Speaker 2: putting a few more pounds on per per cow that

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Speaker 2: year because they have there's more grass, better better habitat

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Speaker 2: out there, and so the bottom line might be better

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Speaker 2: for him in the end. But you know, to be candid,

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Speaker 2: when there's a vacuum, people are going to fill that

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Speaker 2: space with thoughts, uh. And sometimes you know their thoughts,

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Speaker 2: your thoughts turn into conspiracy theories, or you know, they're

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Speaker 2: they're casting judgments or or whatever. And there was a

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Speaker 2: vacuum here. You know. A criticism that I think is

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Speaker 2: fair to put upon the BLM here is that their

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Speaker 2: initial rollout of the proposed rule over a year ago,

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Speaker 2: not the final one a few weeks ago. But the

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Speaker 2: the original rollout of the proposed rule was very well

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Speaker 2: done and it left a lot to the imagination, and

375
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Speaker 2: people's imaginations went wild. And that's how that's how contention

376
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Speaker 2: some of these contentious issues are born, is just with

377
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 2: poor communication and you know, hoping there were some lessons

378
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Speaker 2: learned there, but that was That's an observation I had

379
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Speaker 2: was I think some of this could have been averted

380
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Speaker 2: on the front end actually with just a you know,

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Speaker 2: better communication and outreach.

382
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I tell myself that a

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Speaker 1: lot in my personal life too.

384
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

385
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Speaker 1: The and to move back just a little bit, like

386
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Speaker 1: I imagine, there's you can't just go get a conservation

387
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Speaker 1: lease for fun, right, There's going to be an expectation

388
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Speaker 1: of a result.

389
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I mean you're gonna

390
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Speaker 2: have to put in a proposal of here's what we

391
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Speaker 2: intend to do, here's what we're wanting to do with

392
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Speaker 2: this lease, and you're gonna have to show that you're

393
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: making progress towards that throughout the lease. You can't just

394
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 2: you couldn't go through get approved for a lease and

395
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Speaker 2: then sit on it and not do it it. Just

396
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: just as in with an oil and gas lease, for example,

397
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Speaker 2: if you if you speculate and you you purchase a

398
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 2: lease for oil and gas and then you don't actually

399
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: go out and try and produce, that lease can be canceled.

400
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: If you get a conservation lease, you don't actually or

401
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 2: a restoration lease, you don't actually go out and do

402
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 2: that work that can be canceled. So it's going to

403
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Speaker 2: operate similarly to these other leases in that regard.

404
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:45,719
Speaker 1: To Okay, so we've got a good understanding of what

405
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: we know about this restoration lease. But here's this wrench

406
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Speaker 1: that that just came about earlier this week where the

407
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: US House of Representatives recently passed the West Act HR,

408
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: which is House of rep. Three three nine seven, led

409
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: by Representative John Curtis from the state of Utah, that

410
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Speaker 1: would overturn this rule. We just spent twenty minutes talking

411
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Speaker 1: about what's what's their angle here, what's their stake?

412
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think you have to look at

413
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Speaker 2: this in the bigger picture of a few other actions

414
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Speaker 2: that are going on around the country that the Beure

415
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: of Land Management has done as well, and they all

416
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Speaker 2: kind of come back to the same thing. I mean,

417
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Speaker 2: there's the big pe politics involved here, right, There's there's

418
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Speaker 2: obviously you have an administration, a Democrat administration, trying to

419
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Speaker 2: do something and Republicans are saying, well, if they're for it,

420
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Speaker 2: I'm against it. And the reverse would be true if

421
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Speaker 2: it were Republican proposing it. You know, Democrat administra Democrats

422
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Speaker 2: would come in and say the same thing if therefore

423
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Speaker 2: it were against it. There's the big PA politics involved

424
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Speaker 2: in this, for sure, but it's it's like big P

425
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: politics on steroids with some of these land issues. You know,

426
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Speaker 2: you have the the the Alaska's Right to Produce Act,

427
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: for example, is I think another another good example of

428
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: one that's responding to some BLM actions, and it's based

429
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: on there's a I think there's a fundamental disagreement or

430
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: there's some butting heads over what our energy policy in

431
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: the country should be like, and things that are viewed

432
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: as restrictive on that on on one side's vision of

433
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 2: the country's energy policy. If there are actions that are

434
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: viewed as restrictive on that, they're going to get pushed

435
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: back on. And and I think that's one of the

436
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: things you see here with this public lands rule is

437
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 2: you have people, particularly from Western states where a lot

438
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: of this BLM land is and where we talked about before,

439
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 2: where local economies and state economies are so dependent upon

440
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: the resources provided by those public lands that if they

441
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: see anything that in their eyes are viewed as a

442
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: threat to their to those local economies, or that state

443
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: tax base, and then fit into this bigger picture of

444
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: a national what their vision for a national energy policy is.

445
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: They're they're not going They're they're going to be UH

446
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: opposing it. I don't. I don't look at at these

447
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: bills as coming from people that are anti conservation. For example,

448
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: I've heard I've heard people say that, I think it's

449
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 2: coming from a different place. I think it's coming from UH.

450
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: You know, there's just philosophical policy differences in UH in

451
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: how to address UH climate change, how to address UH

452
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: multiple uses on on lands, and how to address energy

453
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: policy over the long term. So a lot of these

454
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: bills that we saw this week, I think, you think

455
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: about it, we're in an election year. These are these

456
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: are laying down markers for what that at parties vision

457
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: of land policy is and energy policy is if there's

458
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: an administration change, Right. That's That's kind of the way

459
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: I look at it is. It's it's setting the table

460
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: for what the policy agenda would be UH in the

461
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: event of an administration change. So that's that's what That's

462
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: the way I look at it.

463
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I would love to talk

464
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: to you about that solar situation. That's a that's a

465
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: great BLM topic, and not at the expense of my

466
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: sage grouse. Is what I would say from a personal,

467
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: very personal opinion standpoint wildlife connectivity, that chain link fence

468
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: situation that you talked about, I'm not hard for me

469
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: to get on board with that one.

470
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: David, you know I struggle with it too. I also

471
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: struggle with you know I have. I'm a little reluctant

472
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: to share this, but I'll share it anyway, with the

473
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: caveat that it's not peer reviewed science, so it hasn't

474
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: been published anywhere. But I've seen data about wind farms,

475
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: for example, when you mentioned sage grouse, that leck attendance

476
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: within two miles of a wind farm can drop from

477
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: anywhere to between seventy and one hundred percent within two

478
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: miles of a wind farm. Now I think that data.

479
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: The reason I'm reluctant to say that is because it

480
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: hasn't been formally published, and I might be saying something

481
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: that they then that somebody comes back that's working on

482
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: this and says, actually, we totally missed a variable and

483
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: this isn't true, but it's compelling because there's that number.

484
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: And then if it's farther in this study area. If

485
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: you were more than two miles away, Satreo's populations actually

486
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: were increasing at the same time that attendance was plummeting

487
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: in these areas close to wind farms. So those, yeah,

488
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: there are there are other conflicts on public lands coming

489
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: for sure.

490
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: Cards to your non pure reviewed situation that you just

491
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: brought up there, it still lays out the fact that

492
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that we don't know about

493
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: the implications, whether they be positive or negative. But it'd

494
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: be nice to know before we invest in something that

495
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: is going to leave a heck of a mark on

496
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: the landscape.

497
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of this is a marker I take.

498
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: And I don't know what your thoughts are on this,

499
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: but I kind of think of these these multiple use

500
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: discussions and these land management decisions and these industrial projects

501
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: in this way. This is my conservation hat on right.

502
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: This is how I think about it as somebody that

503
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: as a conservationist that loves the updoors. Is it when

504
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: you have a when you have land restored, or you

505
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: have land conserved in some way, or or you know,

506
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: you have a monument created for example, or you you

507
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: know some kind of of or connectivity created, or migration corridors.

508
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: Pert you have that occur ten, fifteen, twenty five, fifty

509
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: years down the road. You never run across somebody that says, man,

510
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: that was a bad idea. Wish we hadn't done that. Right,

511
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: But if you have a big industrial project, you have

512
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: legacy mines in uranium mines on the Navajo Nation and

513
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: parts of the Southwest that are you know, making water

514
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: undrinkable and you know, increasing cancer rates, you say, man,

515
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: wish we hadn't done that. You have you know, mines

516
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: that are developed that that that leech into rivers. You

517
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: have you know in the past, rivers on fire, you

518
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: have oil spills, valdiese horizon. You say, man, wish I

519
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: hadn't done that. You see wildlife populations crash because of

520
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: industrial development in certain places because we didn't we didn't

521
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: know what we didn't know, and you say, man, wish

522
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: we hadn't done that. And so so I think just

523
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: being smart about how we do multiple uses like being

524
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with being cautious. As I said at

525
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: the beginning, I'm a huge beneficiary of the oil and

526
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 2: gas and coal industries, and it's paid for education. In

527
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, It's where I am today is

528
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: because of the opportunities those afforded me. But I also

529
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: am in this camp of while we need these resources,

530
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: I'm sitting on a computer talking to you right now.

531
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 2: That was made by materials that came out of the ground.

532
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: So you know, we got to get the materials from somewhere.

533
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: It's just we don't have to get them from everywhere, right,

534
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: And and that's what a lot what BLM is is

535
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: grappling with on a lot of this stuff is they're

536
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: trying to recognize and meet that multiple use mandate and say,

537
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: we know we have to be able to provide for

538
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: these economies. We know we have to be able to

539
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: provide these materials. We know we need you know, these resources,

540
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: but we also know we have a duty to our

541
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: future generations. We also know that we have a duty

542
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: to protect watersheds and wildlife and landscapes, and so like

543
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: we have to figure out that balanced approach. Uh. And

544
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: that's the tension is like you know, where, where where

545
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: does that pendulum stop swinging Where we get to a

546
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 2: sweet spot where people say, yeah, I think we're doing

547
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: it right and we can look back fifty years from

548
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: now and say, yeah, I don't. I don't regret that,

549
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: you know, I think I think we did it right.

550
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: It's a great lead in to the next kind of

551
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: pair of BLM rules that came out, or I guess

552
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: one was not a rule, it was a kind of

553
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 1: a no decision, which would be the Ambler Road across

554
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: the Brooks Range. I think both of these are going

555
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: to be in Alaska, but it'd be Ambler Road across

556
00:34:51,600 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: the Brooks Range. And then uh, choosing to concern I

557
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: believe in perpetuity about thirteen million acres in the petroleum

558
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: reserve National Petroleum Reserve. Is that correct?

559
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct, yep, yeah.

560
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: And you know this is Alaska and this is in

561
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: the case of Ambler Road speculatively, but I have no

562
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: reason to not believe it. They're we're talking about billion dollars,

563
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: billions of dollars of natural resources that could have been

564
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: extracted in the future. The only way to make it

565
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: viable is through the establishment of this big Hall road,

566
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: access service road, Ambler Road, right, and the BLM just

567
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: made a they're not going to decide right now type

568
00:35:59,680 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: of dis.

569
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: That's that's right, although it appears that they're kind of

570
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 2: leaning towards, uh, not authorizing that road, is what it appears.

571
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean you there's actually three things that

572
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: have happened, because you know, we're talking about the North

573
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 2: slope the Brooks Range of Alaska, this northern Alaska right

574
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: up into the Arctic, and you have kind of you

575
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: have Ambler Road, you have Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. You

576
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: have National Petroleum Reserve of Alaska. You know, all together

577
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: creating this like this is a gigantic complex right of land.

578
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: But you have three, you know, three very different issues.

579
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: You have the Ambler Road, this industrial road for mining purposes.

580
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: You have you know, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, where

581
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, after thirty forty years of battling over it,

582
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen that the Tax Act was passed that

583
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: that required oil and gas leasing to occur on the

584
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 2: new or slope of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Uh

585
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: And that was actually to generate revenue to offset the

586
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 2: tax cuts proposed in that law. And those those those

587
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: leases were issued. You know, there was a lease sale

588
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: leases were issued. You know, the planning for development that

589
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: had started moving along and the administration changed, and the

590
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: administration came in and said, well, well we're gonna pump

591
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: the brakes on this and we're going to do a

592
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: We don't think the environmental analysis was was done properly.

593
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: I don't know that there was a proper range of

594
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 2: alternatives considered under the National Environmental Policy Act or NEPAS.

595
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: People hear it and started to do a more thorough review.

596
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: And then you know, with and then you had a

597
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 2: couple of the companies that bought leases, you know, give

598
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: those leases back, and the one company that still held leases,

599
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: which was actually a company formed by the State of Alaska,

600
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 2: had those leases canceled you know, several months ago. Uh,

601
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: and so you have that situation that's then led to

602
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: you know, created some a lot of controversy in Alaska.

603
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: And then you have this National Petroleum Reserve, you know,

604
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 2: where you had you know, an area it's twenty three

605
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 2: million acres just west I think about one hundred miles

606
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: west of the Arctic National Wilife Refuge. And it was

607
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 2: actually created by President Harding. And then in nineteen seventy

608
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: six you had the Naval Petroleum Reserve Act established that

609
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: transferred the NPRA National Petroleum Reserve of Alaska transferred that

610
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: to Bureau Land Management, and they had under that nineteen

611
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: seventy six law. It's eerily similar to the BLMS, the

612
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: Federal Land Policy and Management Act, of like, how do

613
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: you balance the uses? You know, you have to manage

614
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: this for production of oil and gas, but at the

615
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: same time you have to protect the various cultural and

616
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 2: wildlife and watershed and other resources of the area. And

617
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: so BLM revised their regulations on how they would do

618
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: that management of the MPRE shortly after they approved this

619
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: Willow project actually on the MPR, this Conicco Oil and

620
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: Gas development project, and you know, as part of that,

621
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: as you noted, I think they said, you know, there's

622
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: thirteen million acres of this that we're going to give

623
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: special area status, which is as a it's a status

624
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: that's authorized by the NPR, the National Petroleum Reserve excuse me,

625
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: the National Petroleum Reserve Production Act. It's authorized by that

626
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: to create these special status areas for these protections, which

627
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: they still honor valid existing leases. So if they're oil

628
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: and gas leases on those lands anyway, already they're honored

629
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: by this. But yeah, there it was another example of

630
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 2: the BLM trying to balance the Okay, we're going to

631
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: approve of a project here, but there are other places

632
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: where we've got to protect for caribou migration and you know,

633
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: all sorts of other things and subsistence hunting, and so

634
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: you have all those those three issues converging on each

635
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: other all about the same time. And it's all viewed

636
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: as in Alaska as an assault on energy independence for

637
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: the state of Alaska and for the country. And so

638
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: you know, the delegation in Alaska is really upset about it.

639
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: They get everybody else around the country kind of fired

640
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: up about it as well. And you know, enter the

641
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: Alaska Right to Produce Act. You know, that was part

642
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: of this package of bills that passed the House this week,

643
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: which was meant to undo all of that stuff. Right,

644
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: is meant to say, we're gonna you have to reinstate

645
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: the leases and the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and you

646
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: have to have moved forward with another lease sale by

647
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: the end of the year. It would undo the the

648
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: special status areas in the npr A. It was, so

649
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: it's a big effort to undo it, and it's really

650
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: under the guise of energy policy. Like I mentioned before,

651
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: like a lot of these are just tied to I

652
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: think fundamental disagreements amongst political parties on energy policy.

653
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 1: And it's a wild thing to balance. Right we look

654
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: at the world around us right now, there's a lot

655
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:41,720
Speaker 1: of concerning socio economic things happening all across the globe.

656
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: We are in a position of absolute affluence compared to

657
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: a lot of places, and we want to be able

658
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: to ensure that continues and that security of this awesome

659
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: nation continues. At the same time, we are looking at

660
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: the possible destruction at maxim or severe degradation at minimum,

661
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: certainly within our lifetimes of some other incredibly American national resources,

662
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: which would be this pristine, seldom trammeled area where caribou

663
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: and migratory birds come to calve and nest. A caribou

664
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: herd that is on a rapid decline that some speculate

665
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: just are not going to be able to deal with

666
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: the hurdle that is a road that seems very simple

667
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: for us, but would be a crazy barrier for this

668
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: animal that just is not mentally put together in a

669
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: way to deal with new things popping up in a

670
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: landscape that just doesn't have new things. The water impacts

671
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 1: for a bunch of fish species that spawn there. The

672
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 1: list kind of goes on and on. But those are

673
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: our resources and heritage if you will as well. So

674
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: it's a serious set of scales to balance.

675
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 2: Right it is. I mean you know that I'll say, like,

676
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: they're not making more land, and you know, we're not

677
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: making more of this intact, large intact, largely undisturbed habitat

678
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 2: land that provide innumerable benefits, innumerable benefits beyond the benefits

679
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: to wildlife. You know, the carbon sinks for example, there's

680
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: suck in all that, all the carbonyl the atmosphere. Uh,

681
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 2: they're they're the source of our drinking water. I always

682
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: remind people if you live in a city and turn

683
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: on the tap water, remember that came from your public lands.

684
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: Probably right it's in and so you want to have

685
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: the right conditions so you can still drink that tap water.

686
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: Like they're not making more of these places. And I've

687
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: always taken the position that I'm not opposed. I've said

688
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: it a few times already today. I'm not opposed personally,

689
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: and we're not opposed organizationally to UH, to development, to infrastructure,

690
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: we recognize that we need it, right, but it can't

691
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 2: be at all costs. Right. It's like you really, if

692
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: you're going to go and potentially do something in a place,

693
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: once you do that, it's done. Like once you put

694
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: in that infrastructure in a sensitive place like the Arctic,

695
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: it's done. And I don't I don't mean just for

696
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: our lifetime, I mean for future lifetimes. I mean, you

697
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: have a tundra of plants up there, they're seventy five

698
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: years old, right, Like, yeah, I tell people about in

699
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 2: our area, like sage brush. It takes fifty sixty years

700
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: for sagebrush to mature. It's like an old growth forest

701
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: out there on the range. Right. When you alter these

702
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 2: when you say we're we're moving forward with this project,

703
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: you're making that decision not just for this generation in

704
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: the next generation, but for several generations down the road.

705
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: Because yeah, nature heals itself, but it's not going to

706
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 2: heal itself for a real long time. And so we

707
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 2: have to make sure it's absolutely the thing we need

708
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: at the time, we need it in the place, and

709
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: this is the only place we can do it. And

710
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: then we have to say, if we're going to do

711
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 2: it here's how we do it in the most responsible

712
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 2: way possible. And I think again, that's what BLM's trying

713
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: to juggle here. They approved, for example, the Willow project,

714
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: they approved this oil and gas project in the npr A,

715
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: and and then at the same time they said, you

716
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: know what, to your point, there's a caribou herd that's

717
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 2: hurting real bad. We got millions of migratory birds. This

718
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: isn't a really important watershed, Like there's a some of

719
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 2: this has to be set aside, like we have to

720
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 2: structure this as a special area. Like there's just we

721
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: can't do it here. Right, Those are the juggling acts

722
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: we have to make. But every time somebody make I mean,

723
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: I'm glad, I'm I'm not the one that has to

724
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: make the decision, right, It's one of those somebody told

725
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: me once actually was a former president of this university

726
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: where I'm sitting right now. Yeah, he told me once,

727
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 2: anytime you make a decision you're gonna make, you're gonna

728
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: upset ten percent of the people. So after you make

729
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: ten decisions, everybody everybody hates you. So you just have

730
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: to work at doing what's right. And I think that's

731
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: the position that our leaders in these roles that are

732
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: trying to that are being stewards of our land. That's

733
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: what they're faced with. They know that no matter what

734
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: the decision they make, it's probably more than ten percent

735
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: of the people that are going to be upset with them.

736
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: They probably don't have to make two or three decisions

737
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 2: before everybody hates them. But there's there's stewards for not

738
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 2: just us, but for those that come after us as well.

739
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: And that's a pretty awesome responsibility. And that's a really

740
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: really hard job, and it's controversial. Uh and and but

741
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: I think what they're trying to do right now is

742
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: that they've made they've said, this is our balancing act,

743
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: this is this is our interpretation, this is how we

744
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 2: think we need to do it.

745
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: And what do you care to speculate on on what's

746
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: going to happen with the rule making process now that

747
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: we have the rollout of the rules and then this

748
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: immediate response at the house level.

749
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the I mean, the rules are going

750
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: to go into effect. They've been rolled out, they'll formally

751
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: go into effect in June. And I'm talking particularly really

752
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: speaking to the public Lands rule, the one that we've

753
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: talked about first that one will go into a formally

754
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 2: into effect in June. And I think BLM's out there

755
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: actively looking for who might be a good partner to

756
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: do one of these restoration leases, for example, like let's

757
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: let's and I hope that's what they're doing. I hope

758
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: they're trying to find the right partner to come in

759
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: and show how you can do this lease, a restoration lease,

760
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: the right way to be effective partners and actually create

761
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: an enhancement to the landscape that's going to move forward.

762
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: But there's also the uncertainty of Okay, what happens eight

763
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: months from now. You know the bill in Congress, you

764
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 2: know past the House, it's not it's not going to

765
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 2: go anywhere in the Senate. I would be floored if

766
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: if these bills went anywhere in the Senate that just

767
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 2: passed the House. In this congress, we have an election

768
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: in November, right, and so there are things that could

769
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: happen depending on the outcome of that election. You could see,

770
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: for example, you could see what's called the Congressional Review

771
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 2: Act come into play if if the House, the Senate,

772
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: and the Presidency all align, some of these rules may

773
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: or may not be subject to the Congressional Review Act,

774
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 2: which would invalidate the rule and prevent a rule from

775
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: being issued again in the future. That's a path I

776
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: don't know how likely that is, you know, see what

777
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: the outcome is. And also I don't know where it's

778
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: calendar dependent when these rules get rolled out versus Sorry,

779
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 2: there's some complexities behind it, and it's possible that the

780
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 2: next Congress couldn't do anything with it. But the next

781
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: Congress could come in and if they have the majority,

782
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: they could come in and pass pass through both chambers.

783
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: These bills that passed through the House this week. They

784
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: could be reintroduced and passed, or maybe they don't have

785
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: to do that because if the presidency presidency changes, and

786
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: what's very clear is is these bills are a reflection of,

787
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: you know, what the policies of a different administration might be.

788
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: It could you could very quickly have an administration come

789
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: in and reverse course on these rules and push things

790
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: back the other way. And that's kind of what's been

791
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: happening for the past fifteen years. We've seen it with

792
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: Sage Grouse, like you know, that pendulum has swung so

793
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: much that I'm dizzy on sage grouse where we're just

794
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: in this perpetual state of planning of how are we

795
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: going to manage for sage grouse on BLM. You know,

796
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: we had twenty fifteen plans, we have twenty nineteen plans.

797
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 2: We now have twenty twenty four plans that are going

798
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 2: to come out, right, It's it's just this constant state

799
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: of planning and replanning and pushing the pendulum one way

800
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: or the other. I would argue that that that's the

801
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: one thing about politics that you know, wildlife don't care

802
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: about politics in the landscape don't care about politics, uh,

803
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 2: but they're certainly affected by it. Right. You know, the

804
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: constant pendulum swings means you actually don't get the work

805
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 2: done because you're just constantly changing what the last person did.

806
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: But that's something that could happen, is you could if

807
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 2: there's a if there's a change, some of these rules

808
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: could could be reversed and and a pendulum could swing

809
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 2: back the other way. Yeah, that's just the that's just

810
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 2: the nature of the beast right now. Right, But but

811
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: for now, through the rest of this year, yeah, I

812
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: think that that rule will be implemented and they'll look

813
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 2: for partners for those leases. Uh and and hopefully what

814
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: you see is people getting out on the ground and

815
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 2: rolling up their sleeves and getting dirt on their fingernails

816
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 2: and and doing some restoration work out there on you know,

817
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: to to help support an agency that has perpetually not

818
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: had the resources to be able to do it, to

819
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 2: do all the things needed, like we mentioned before, to

820
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: restore these landscapes.

821
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that restoration is just going to support an agency.

822
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: It's gonna support all those awesome opportunities that we have

823
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 1: out there on that big chunk of BLM public ground,

824
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: likely next to you if you're in the West especially.

825
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: And boy, well you said earlier in the show that

826
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, there's it should be a lot of comfort

827
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: for people in rules versus legislation. So hopefully we can

828
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: keep that pendulum you know in the radical center that

829
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: is going to be beneficial for most in this rule

830
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: making process, and we don't get sucked into something that

831
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: that create that is going to need an Act of

832
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: Congress to switch at some time in the future.

833
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, fingers crossed, right, I mean, that's that's the hope

834
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 2: you want, Like you said, that radical center with all

835
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: of these actions I think, you know, at some point

836
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: the most important thing is durability and predictability. At some

837
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 2: point it would be great to see our leaders come together. Yeah,

838
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 2: and this is where I think a lot of the

839
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: work gets done on the ground. You know, local communities

840
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 2: are so good at this is you can come in

841
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,439
Speaker 2: and you can say your piece, and you can meet

842
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: in the middle, and you can you can move forward

843
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: and you have something that you can work together on.

844
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 2: It's harder the farther you get away from that local,

845
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: that local setting and you get to that federal level

846
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: where the big p politics gets involved and it gets

847
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 2: really really hard. But frankly, for one of the most

848
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,399
Speaker 2: important things that we can have, and I think about

849
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: it with sage grouse and the comment period that's open

850
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 2: right now on the sage grouse plans is at the

851
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: end of the day, we need something that is benefits

852
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 2: the stage, grass, benefits the landscape, recognizes the other uses,

853
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: you know, other multiple uses and find space for those.

854
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 2: And and where we can say none of us got

855
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: everything we wanted right in a perfect world. All of

856
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 2: us might think it might look a little bit differently

857
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: no matter where we come from. But you know what

858
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 2: we all got something and we're pretty happy. You know,

859
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: maybe we agree on eighty percent of it, and we

860
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,439
Speaker 2: just say that twenty percent we're not agreeing on. We're

861
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: just not going to agree on. And let's charge forward,

862
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: and let's start implementing and doing good stuff, and let's

863
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 2: have some durability because you know, these these these fights

864
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 2: and pendulum swings, while they might you might get clicks

865
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 2: on on social media size they might get you know,

866
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 2: some donors sending money for re elections, they don't do

867
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 2: anything to help the sage grouse or the mule deer

868
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 2: or the prong horn. Like that's the thing at the

869
00:54:58,640 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: end of the day, that that's the thing I care

870
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: about out is yeah, I love the wildlife.

871
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: Heck yeah, heck yeah. David, thank you so much for

872
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: coming on. Obviously it's it's a big topic, and thanks

873
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: everybody for listening to this one. If if folks want

874
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: to get involved or engaged with NWF, what what's a

875
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 1: good way to do that?

876
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: You know, the easiest thing to do is just to

877
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: go I'll give you two ways. One at the national level,

878
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 2: you just go to NWF dot RG and we got

879
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 2: all kinds of resources and information you can find out

880
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: how to get involved there. The other thing is at

881
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 2: the state level, we've got, like I said, fifty two

882
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 2: great affiliates all over the country doing awesome stuff in

883
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 2: their states and in territories. And if you want to

884
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: get involved, you're really at the local level. And at

885
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 2: the state level. Yeah, look up, look up your state

886
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: affiliate and get involved there. Look up your State Wildlife

887
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: Federation chapter. Get involved there. A couple of you know,

888
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 2: great ways to do it. And like I said, big

889
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: tent doesn't matter what your political affiliation is. It doesn't

890
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 2: matter if you're a hunter, if you're not a hunter,

891
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: if you live in the city, if you live on

892
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 2: a ranch. Yeah, everybody's welcome as long as you recognize

893
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 2: the wildlife's the middle name.

894
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, buddy, Well, thank you so much, really

895
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: appreciate it. You got some great insight on what's happening

896
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: at the federal level. So David Wilms, National Wildlife Federation,

897
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: thanks again.