1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:26,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Last Archive listeners, this is Jill Lapour. We're 2 00:00:26,836 --> 00:00:29,196 Speaker 1: hard at work on season three and can't wait to 3 00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: share it with you. It's all about reason, about finding 4 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:36,796 Speaker 1: our way towards hope and common knowledge and out of 5 00:00:36,836 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: the epistemological pickle we explored in seasons one and two. 6 00:00:41,516 --> 00:00:44,276 Speaker 1: But making a new season takes time, so meanwhile, I 7 00:00:44,316 --> 00:00:46,956 Speaker 1: want to introduce you to a new limited run series 8 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:51,036 Speaker 1: that I'm doing, called The Last Archivist. Over the years, 9 00:00:51,036 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: I've met hundreds and hundreds of archivists, collectors, curators, librarians, 10 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:59,636 Speaker 1: keepers of history, people with trinkets and facts and ideas 11 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 1: that I want to add to our collection of the 12 00:01:01,876 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 1: known things. In this series, you'll hear from a few 13 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: of them about their work, like how to sit up 14 00:01:07,756 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: a library in a prison, what four decades worth of 15 00:01:10,756 --> 00:01:13,276 Speaker 1: eyeglasses can tell us about the history of a person, 16 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:16,316 Speaker 1: And why a trash collector in Pittsburgh is a kind 17 00:01:16,316 --> 00:01:22,516 Speaker 1: of archivist too. It's gonna be fun. This series is 18 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 1: just for Pushkin Plus subscribers, but we're dropping the first 19 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:28,196 Speaker 1: episode for you here in the feed. If you want 20 00:01:28,196 --> 00:01:31,076 Speaker 1: to hear the rest, subscribe at the Last Archive show 21 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: page and Apple podcasts or go to pushkin dot fm, 22 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:42,876 Speaker 1: slash plus and thanks for listening. Welcome to The Last Archivist, 23 00:01:43,076 --> 00:01:45,836 Speaker 1: the show where I talked to archivists about the collections 24 00:01:45,836 --> 00:01:49,436 Speaker 1: and records they keep and why. In this episode, I 25 00:01:49,516 --> 00:01:52,796 Speaker 1: talked to Reginald Dwayne Betts. He's the author of three books, 26 00:01:52,796 --> 00:01:56,916 Speaker 1: including Felon, a collection of poems about the effects of incarceration. 27 00:01:57,636 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 1: He's also an actor, a lawyer, and a teacher, and 28 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 1: the recipient of a MacArthur Genius Grant. We talked about 29 00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:08,356 Speaker 1: Freedom Reads, an organization Bets started to bring literature to 30 00:02:08,436 --> 00:02:12,076 Speaker 1: jails in prison across the country. Bets was incarcerated as 31 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:15,556 Speaker 1: a teenager and given a nine year sentence. While in prison, 32 00:02:15,636 --> 00:02:18,476 Speaker 1: a fellow inmate gave him a book and it changed 33 00:02:18,556 --> 00:02:21,756 Speaker 1: his life. He wants to give other incarcerated people that 34 00:02:21,836 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 1: experience too, so he's building libraries in prison cells. But 35 00:02:26,436 --> 00:02:29,476 Speaker 1: I'll let him tell you about it. My name is 36 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:32,596 Speaker 1: regend Dwayne Betts, and I'm the founder and director of 37 00:02:32,716 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 1: Freedom Reads, a project that is meant to curate and 38 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 1: build freedom libraries and prisons across this country. Thanks so 39 00:02:39,556 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 1: much for doing this when you have so much going on. 40 00:02:41,596 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 1: This is really really exciting. So I wanted to talk 41 00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:47,156 Speaker 1: to you about the Freedom library as an archive in 42 00:02:47,196 --> 00:02:50,396 Speaker 1: a collection. I have this podcast that's about kind of 43 00:02:50,396 --> 00:02:54,316 Speaker 1: where knowledge lives, like where we store ideas and memories, 44 00:02:54,396 --> 00:02:56,836 Speaker 1: and so I'm kind of fascinated, like, of all the 45 00:02:56,876 --> 00:02:59,556 Speaker 1: things that you could have done, most of which you're 46 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 1: actually also doing different forms of prison education or prison 47 00:03:03,796 --> 00:03:07,356 Speaker 1: writing programs, or your own poetry and memoir writing, your 48 00:03:07,356 --> 00:03:12,396 Speaker 1: own performance. Why a library, you know, honestly, I feel 49 00:03:12,396 --> 00:03:17,916 Speaker 1: like maybe library is the most radical thing I imagine 50 00:03:18,396 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 1: being able to be done. But also it's the thing 51 00:03:22,956 --> 00:03:27,836 Speaker 1: that's absolutely quintessential to some movement, to actual building of 52 00:03:28,996 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 1: a community, to actually build another civilization, to actually build 53 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 1: another democracy. It's like, where's your repository of language? And 54 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,156 Speaker 1: what does it mean to actually make that accessible? And 55 00:03:38,236 --> 00:03:40,676 Speaker 1: not make it accessible in a symbolic way. A lot 56 00:03:40,756 --> 00:03:42,836 Speaker 1: of us don't live in a world with a library 57 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:46,916 Speaker 1: actually functions as pure symbol. We think about some public 58 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: schools that aren't the greatest schools. They still have libraries 59 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:51,556 Speaker 1: in the school and they still push the students to 60 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:54,436 Speaker 1: attend to go to those libraries. And maybe everybody doesn't 61 00:03:54,476 --> 00:03:56,196 Speaker 1: go to the new York Public Library who lives in 62 00:03:56,196 --> 00:03:58,596 Speaker 1: New York. But that's why they have satellite branches, and 63 00:03:58,636 --> 00:04:02,116 Speaker 1: those libraries work really hard to make the services amenable 64 00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:06,396 Speaker 1: and attractive to everybody in the community. In prison, you're 65 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:08,516 Speaker 1: lucky if you could get to the library once some money, 66 00:04:08,516 --> 00:04:10,436 Speaker 1: and when you get that, you have twenty five minutes. 67 00:04:11,196 --> 00:04:13,276 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I remember coming home and people 68 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:16,796 Speaker 1: will criticize me because I hadn't read a lot of Shakespeare, 69 00:04:17,396 --> 00:04:19,036 Speaker 1: and I was like, well, why would I have read 70 00:04:19,076 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: a lot of Shakespeare. I was going to the library 71 00:04:21,116 --> 00:04:23,396 Speaker 1: for twenty five minutes. I just had time to go 72 00:04:23,436 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 1: to what I hungered for. I didn't have the time 73 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:27,716 Speaker 1: to explore what I might want. And so for me, 74 00:04:28,156 --> 00:04:30,956 Speaker 1: it was both a process of curation in a process 75 00:04:30,956 --> 00:04:33,476 Speaker 1: of creating the expectation for others. And I thought, well, 76 00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:35,636 Speaker 1: what does it mean when I create the expectation from 77 00:04:35,636 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 1: somebody who's doing time in prison to end up in 78 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 1: these spaces. In conversations with Sonya Sanchez, I mean, in 79 00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:44,956 Speaker 1: conversations with Jill Lapoor, you were publishing books, you were 80 00:04:45,036 --> 00:04:47,076 Speaker 1: a scholar when I was in prison, and I didn't 81 00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:49,676 Speaker 1: know that you existed. And that's that's like a tragedy, 82 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, how might my 83 00:04:51,596 --> 00:04:54,316 Speaker 1: world have been different had I been hipped to more 84 00:04:54,356 --> 00:04:58,956 Speaker 1: than just that one historical text that people quote. And 85 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 1: so I feel like, you know, I want to have 86 00:05:01,436 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: a role and saying that the books matter because the 87 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 1: books matter. You know, the books don't matter because you 88 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:12,596 Speaker 1: you're gonna read them and necessarily become something different. They 89 00:05:12,716 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 1: matter because it's the foundational principle of trying to build 90 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: something more and without it, you can't build more. So 91 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:22,596 Speaker 1: the question I have are you working on this project 92 00:05:22,636 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 1: or the Freedom Library, is whether it's changed how you 93 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: think about books. You know, we can think about books 94 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:32,516 Speaker 1: as a gift or a book says a refuge, books 95 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:34,756 Speaker 1: as an escape, Like, there are lots of different ways 96 00:05:34,756 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 1: we think about books. I'm wondering if you're thinking about 97 00:05:37,436 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 1: books has changed in a couple of ways. One, I've 98 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:46,516 Speaker 1: realized how a lot of us have a common vocabulary, 99 00:05:46,716 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 1: and I've thought about how to push against that. And 100 00:05:49,116 --> 00:05:51,316 Speaker 1: so certain books come up and you see that because 101 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 1: you share experiences and you share education, folks are where 102 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 1: those books. But then I've watched how in conversation you 103 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:00,196 Speaker 1: see that the really beautiful moments come when when it's 104 00:06:00,236 --> 00:06:03,796 Speaker 1: an introduction of a book that somebody hadn't heard of. 105 00:06:04,316 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: So one of the things I've noticed is that in 106 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:11,036 Speaker 1: curating a collection, you work very hard to see people 107 00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:14,596 Speaker 1: I do. So I can't just have the run of 108 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:16,636 Speaker 1: books that you will read as a PhD student in 109 00:06:16,676 --> 00:06:19,996 Speaker 1: sociology or a PhD student in law or PhD student 110 00:06:19,996 --> 00:06:22,516 Speaker 1: in history. It has to be far more complex than that. 111 00:06:22,996 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: Going up and down. I recognize that, you know, the 112 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:29,716 Speaker 1: dog books have to have light in it, and you 113 00:06:29,756 --> 00:06:31,756 Speaker 1: have to understand what that light means, and it can't 114 00:06:31,756 --> 00:06:35,916 Speaker 1: just be because somebody said it so. But also I 115 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:40,116 Speaker 1: recognize that it is fifteen different ways to understand every book. 116 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:43,116 Speaker 1: And I've been having arguments with people who say, well, 117 00:06:43,196 --> 00:06:47,116 Speaker 1: Jane Austen means this, I don't know like and somebody 118 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:50,796 Speaker 1: will say, are you really I'm going to include hard 119 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:55,356 Speaker 1: of Darkness? I mean, don't you understand. Layla Lalami wrote 120 00:06:55,356 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: a beautiful introduction to that book where she talked about 121 00:06:57,956 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 1: it was the first book in the English language she read. 122 00:07:01,076 --> 00:07:03,356 Speaker 1: We bring meaning to books in the same way they 123 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:06,116 Speaker 1: bring meanings to us, and the question is what can 124 00:07:06,156 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: I make a community aware of as I do this work, 125 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:13,516 Speaker 1: and so in developing this library, I'm trying really hard 126 00:07:13,556 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 1: to engage with people in a way in which they've 127 00:07:15,676 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 1: remind me of their similar stories, so that some of 128 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:22,916 Speaker 1: those books creep into this library and it's not and 129 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:26,396 Speaker 1: it becomes an enterprise that allows people to meet themselves 130 00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:29,516 Speaker 1: where they are and grow somewhere. But it also becomes 131 00:07:29,516 --> 00:07:32,556 Speaker 1: i think, a symbol or that very process of becoming 132 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:35,836 Speaker 1: and not this idea of like, you know, if I 133 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 1: had the books, Like if I was like, who are 134 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:41,036 Speaker 1: you as a lawyer? And I put towards and contracts 135 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:43,316 Speaker 1: and then you looked at that bookshelf, it wouldn't really 136 00:07:43,316 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 1: communicate much except the finish line. But every beautiful library 137 00:07:47,356 --> 00:07:50,836 Speaker 1: I think reflects more to journey. So what do you 138 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 1: hear from readers? I should tell you, Like one guy, 139 00:07:55,036 --> 00:07:58,796 Speaker 1: he says, oh you you send it in um Man 140 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:01,996 Speaker 1: Search for mena man that book changed my life. I mean, 141 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:04,476 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I was in a bad way and 142 00:08:04,516 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this guy and I'm like yeah, and 143 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 1: it was so shoo bought it and it's like just 144 00:08:10,436 --> 00:08:13,356 Speaker 1: like forty He's like late thirties. Black dude, you know, 145 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:16,276 Speaker 1: and like deeply talking about that's the book that made 146 00:08:16,276 --> 00:08:19,396 Speaker 1: me reimagine the world. But other things though, it's like 147 00:08:19,436 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 1: some guys that I met who really became educated in 148 00:08:21,716 --> 00:08:25,716 Speaker 1: prison he said, he said, uh, my man, Richard talks about, 149 00:08:25,836 --> 00:08:28,596 Speaker 1: you know, being stomped out by the guards. He had 150 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:30,356 Speaker 1: swung on one of the CEOs and then they beat 151 00:08:30,396 --> 00:08:33,116 Speaker 1: him up real bad, broke his teeth and being on 152 00:08:33,156 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 1: the floor, mouth bloody, and later reflecting on it and 153 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:40,276 Speaker 1: thinking about how that was just KMO moment where you 154 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 1: make a decision about whether you want to live or 155 00:08:43,396 --> 00:08:45,916 Speaker 1: you just want to give up, And you know, it's like, 156 00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:50,476 Speaker 1: it's something radical about talking to these guys who who 157 00:08:50,556 --> 00:08:53,356 Speaker 1: get that kind of work from books. And it's interesting 158 00:08:53,396 --> 00:08:55,676 Speaker 1: because the books get you just up to that ledge 159 00:08:55,676 --> 00:08:57,796 Speaker 1: where the next thing you under you start asking this, 160 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:00,156 Speaker 1: but how do we respond to the world given the 161 00:09:00,196 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 1: decisions that were made? And how do we want the 162 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:05,956 Speaker 1: world to respond to us given the decisions that we made. 163 00:09:06,156 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: So it's been it's been powerful. And some people haven't 164 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,556 Speaker 1: liked some book, you know, and it's saying and sometimes 165 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 1: the DFC administrators are like, what people don't like the books? 166 00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:18,036 Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's okay. So that's part of it too. 167 00:09:18,116 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 1: It's like, you don't have to like every book. I think, 168 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:22,636 Speaker 1: you know, I told, I told the warden, say, you know, 169 00:09:22,716 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 1: part of my challenge is to remind people why these 170 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:29,716 Speaker 1: books matter, but also put emphasis on these and books 171 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 1: and it's not singular, so maybe something else will jump 172 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:36,076 Speaker 1: out to him. Um. And I've been reminded of that, 173 00:09:36,116 --> 00:09:38,716 Speaker 1: and that's been a nice lesson for myself as like 174 00:09:39,196 --> 00:09:41,676 Speaker 1: a writer and a thinker who sometimes gets sad when 175 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:44,316 Speaker 1: people don't love. What I say is that, you know, 176 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:47,516 Speaker 1: the junk, these these young folks and just men and 177 00:09:47,516 --> 00:09:50,756 Speaker 1: women in prison have sometimes not like books that I love, 178 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:54,796 Speaker 1: and I have to accept that and so do the writers. Yeah, 179 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:57,476 Speaker 1: but also discriminating between the books that you love and 180 00:09:57,476 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 1: you hate. It's kind of the spark too, like that's 181 00:09:59,716 --> 00:10:02,116 Speaker 1: that's how you find out who you are, Like I'm 182 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:04,876 Speaker 1: a person who hates Melville. Let's now. I know that 183 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:07,116 Speaker 1: that's a lesson though honestly though, because I think that 184 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:09,876 Speaker 1: you have to have a certain kind of so confidence 185 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:12,916 Speaker 1: to really dislike a book. I know the first book 186 00:10:13,116 --> 00:10:16,596 Speaker 1: that I vehemently disliked, and I know my response was 187 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 1: the writer ten page essay about how I disliked the 188 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:21,716 Speaker 1: book and I was in solitary confinement. And I would 189 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:24,836 Speaker 1: never forget that book. I'll never forget the ideas in it. 190 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:27,836 Speaker 1: I'll never forget exactly what made me dislike it. And 191 00:10:27,996 --> 00:10:31,036 Speaker 1: and I've only read it once, and I know it. 192 00:10:31,436 --> 00:10:33,396 Speaker 1: I know it in ways that I don't know books 193 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:36,476 Speaker 1: that I love. It was all God's Children, Fox Butterfield, 194 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:39,396 Speaker 1: about Willie, about Willie Boskett. He was the kid that 195 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:43,076 Speaker 1: led to the New York Youth Offender law. But I 196 00:10:43,236 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: know what prison I was at, I know what sale 197 00:10:45,036 --> 00:10:47,436 Speaker 1: I was in. I know that I paid for the book. 198 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 1: God damn it. Yeah. Yeah, But then you own your ideas, 199 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 1: you know, like that's the freedom of that, Like you 200 00:10:55,796 --> 00:10:59,116 Speaker 1: own your opinion about that book. Well, you don't have much, 201 00:10:59,196 --> 00:11:01,556 Speaker 1: like you can own that, especially when you don't have much. 202 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: And I also think that's one of the powers of 203 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:06,676 Speaker 1: the libraries that you know, when you don't have much, 204 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 1: you do have your own ideas, and books help you 205 00:11:09,276 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: develop your ideas, to help I had ideas post reading 206 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: that book that I didn't have before. You know, reading 207 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 1: that book helped me understand the world around me. In 208 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: a way that I didn't before I read the book, 209 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 1: because I needed to be confronted with arguments I disagree 210 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: with to help me know what I cared about. In 211 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:25,796 Speaker 1: the same way, in novels, you know, you get confronted 212 00:11:25,836 --> 00:11:28,476 Speaker 1: with these characters that bother you. I mean, it makes 213 00:11:28,516 --> 00:11:30,676 Speaker 1: you know why, you know, and it makes you maybe 214 00:11:30,796 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: change some of the ways that you act in the 215 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:34,916 Speaker 1: world's like I don't maybe I was like him. I 216 00:11:34,916 --> 00:11:36,516 Speaker 1: don't I want to be like him or heard, you know, 217 00:11:36,556 --> 00:11:38,956 Speaker 1: I don't want to act like they do. So, Yeah, 218 00:11:39,076 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 1: to imagine yourself being in the role in the place 219 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 1: of another human being making a choice is to imagine choices, 220 00:11:46,516 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: and in a way that you know, is about fully 221 00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 1: figuring out who you are. So you started sending out 222 00:11:55,196 --> 00:11:59,876 Speaker 1: books already to prisons and to juvenile detention centers, and 223 00:11:59,996 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 1: you're also involved in the building of physical bookshelves for 224 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 1: the Is that right for the library to be housed in? 225 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:10,556 Speaker 1: How's that working? How's that work? It's actually fantastic. I 226 00:12:10,556 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: Mean one of the ideas was, okay, what if we 227 00:12:12,196 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 1: just build books, And then some people said, but why 228 00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 1: don't you just give books away? You know, why build 229 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:19,556 Speaker 1: a space. Would you say that about your local library, 230 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:21,476 Speaker 1: would you say, why build a space? You know, but 231 00:12:21,516 --> 00:12:24,156 Speaker 1: a library is not just a collection of books to 232 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:28,156 Speaker 1: strewn on the floor or placed on shelves. It's actually 233 00:12:28,196 --> 00:12:31,996 Speaker 1: like some organizational structure that invites people to come towards it. 234 00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:34,596 Speaker 1: And so that was a problem. How do you create 235 00:12:34,676 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: that kind of space? How do you create a micro 236 00:12:36,756 --> 00:12:40,316 Speaker 1: library within a building that only has straight lines and 237 00:12:40,436 --> 00:12:44,396 Speaker 1: right angles that typically your understanding of it is only 238 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: based on violence. And it has to be more than 239 00:12:47,156 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 1: like the bookshelf behind me. And so we created something beautiful. 240 00:12:49,796 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 1: We had them design something that has curves because no 241 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:54,956 Speaker 1: curves exist in prison. We had them designed something when 242 00:12:54,996 --> 00:12:57,636 Speaker 1: you can access to books on both sides, because we 243 00:12:57,676 --> 00:13:00,796 Speaker 1: want people to come together and meet at the stacks, 244 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:03,116 Speaker 1: you know, and be able to communicate with each other. 245 00:13:03,276 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: And what's really de fascinating is that it's forced me 246 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:08,356 Speaker 1: to gain knowledge from others, you know, It's forced me 247 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:10,836 Speaker 1: to accept what I'm not an expert in. So I'm 248 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:13,876 Speaker 1: learning what sheep goods are. I'm learning that some woods 249 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:16,156 Speaker 1: are soft and some words at heart. And I'm working 250 00:13:16,196 --> 00:13:20,316 Speaker 1: with the Department of Corrections and recognizing that prisons are 251 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 1: violent places, and so we have to build a structure 252 00:13:23,116 --> 00:13:25,876 Speaker 1: that doesn't hurt somebody, you know, we have to build 253 00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 1: a structure where the wood isn't so soft that it 254 00:13:28,876 --> 00:13:31,156 Speaker 1: could be piled and turned in the weapons. I mean, 255 00:13:31,316 --> 00:13:34,396 Speaker 1: these are like serious considerations that I think going to 256 00:13:34,476 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 1: creating something beautiful, but going to creating something beautiful within 257 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:40,876 Speaker 1: the context where it exists, recognizing at once it's created, 258 00:13:41,036 --> 00:13:42,516 Speaker 1: all of us will want this in our house. And 259 00:13:42,556 --> 00:13:45,156 Speaker 1: so I'm trying to bridge the gap between prison and 260 00:13:45,196 --> 00:13:47,996 Speaker 1: freedom in such a way that it makes another argument 261 00:13:48,076 --> 00:13:52,156 Speaker 1: for not needing prison. But it's acknowledging the conditions of 262 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:56,596 Speaker 1: incarceration right now and looked and fascinating. And you're the 263 00:13:56,636 --> 00:14:00,276 Speaker 1: first person publicly I've told this. You know already Norton 264 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: of Malcolm X fame, they gutted a prison cell, and 265 00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 1: we're turning a prison cell into a library. And I 266 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:09,236 Speaker 1: think that that is just like, you know, if I 267 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 1: was a person who gets emotional and hadn't been like, 268 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:17,156 Speaker 1: you know, radically transformed by prison in both good and 269 00:14:17,196 --> 00:14:19,436 Speaker 1: bad ways, I will be weeping at the very idea 270 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 1: that um, you know, I was once in a hold 271 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:24,716 Speaker 1: with books will contraband, and then we'll turn in a 272 00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 1: prison cell into a library. I mean it is literally 273 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:33,516 Speaker 1: both a metaphor but an actual material fulfillment of some 274 00:14:33,596 --> 00:14:38,836 Speaker 1: promise that that I always hope was possible. You know, 275 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 1: it makes me think about her here. I remember reading 276 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 1: that when Charles Dickens came to the United States in 277 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 1: eighteen forty two, he was really interested in prison reform, 278 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:50,756 Speaker 1: and um, he went to this prison in Philadelphia where 279 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:55,836 Speaker 1: solitary confinnement was a kind of a new practice, and 280 00:14:55,876 --> 00:14:58,036 Speaker 1: he was allowed to see someone who had been in 281 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 1: solitary confinement. Dickens was hugely opposed to solitary convironment and 282 00:15:01,676 --> 00:15:04,356 Speaker 1: opposed to the conditions in the prisons. And he met 283 00:15:04,396 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: this man who who just lost it, like he just 284 00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 1: lost it in solitary and he he had been given 285 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:14,196 Speaker 1: like a single newspaper sheet and he had made a 286 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:16,276 Speaker 1: hat out of it, and he wore this hat made 287 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:19,036 Speaker 1: out of a newspaper. And it's just like this wrenching 288 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:22,156 Speaker 1: moment in this account of Dickens's, like this was his 289 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 1: reckoning with America, that this weird American moment was like 290 00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:31,036 Speaker 1: watching that mind, you know, be kind of put into 291 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:34,196 Speaker 1: this cell and the way that this man was trying 292 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:38,036 Speaker 1: to escape. I don't know, just thinking about the cell 293 00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 1: being turned into a library as this just incredible, almost 294 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:46,036 Speaker 1: like Dickenzie and feel of the kind of the magnitude 295 00:15:46,036 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 1: of that, you know, Symbolically, for me, it was walking 296 00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:53,796 Speaker 1: down those corridors and filling the way that the stones 297 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 1: carry memory, and the way that the memory of those stones, 298 00:15:57,836 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 1: I mean they carried the memories that guy from Dickens, 299 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:05,516 Speaker 1: you know, his mind unraveling because somebody felt like the 300 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:07,436 Speaker 1: way to transform you was to put you in a 301 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:10,316 Speaker 1: dark hole and leave you there, and today decided you 302 00:16:10,316 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 1: should be free. And you know, a part of the 303 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:16,036 Speaker 1: project is to make people recognize that. So when people say, 304 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:18,356 Speaker 1: but really, you want to build a library in a sale, 305 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 1: I say, it's one library in one sale in America, 306 00:16:23,036 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 1: but it's two point three million people in all of 307 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:29,316 Speaker 1: the other sales. And the question becomes, do you want 308 00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:32,116 Speaker 1: to talk to me about the library that I built 309 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:34,236 Speaker 1: in that sale or do you want to talk to 310 00:16:34,236 --> 00:16:36,516 Speaker 1: me about the two point three million people that we 311 00:16:36,636 --> 00:16:39,036 Speaker 1: filled all of the other sales with. Because I bet 312 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:41,476 Speaker 1: if we filled all of those other sales up with libraries, 313 00:16:41,756 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be room for people, and nobody would have 314 00:16:44,676 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 1: a problem with those books being there, no matter how 315 00:16:47,796 --> 00:16:50,196 Speaker 1: decrepit the building was. We will find out a way 316 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 1: to get to those books because we have value in it. 317 00:16:52,636 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 1: How can we all find a way to get to 318 00:16:53,996 --> 00:16:58,516 Speaker 1: those people. Yeah, that's beautiful. I am just sell impressed 319 00:16:58,756 --> 00:17:01,556 Speaker 1: by everything that you're doing and by the just the 320 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:06,476 Speaker 1: scale of this project. And it's just deep humanity and 321 00:17:06,556 --> 00:17:09,956 Speaker 1: it's really gonna stick with me thinking about what it 322 00:17:09,996 --> 00:17:12,836 Speaker 1: means to care about each of those two point three 323 00:17:12,836 --> 00:17:15,356 Speaker 1: million people the way we care about the books in 324 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:18,996 Speaker 1: our libraries. And I just want to thank you so 325 00:17:19,076 --> 00:17:22,116 Speaker 1: much for everything you're doing and for taking a time 326 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 1: to talk with us. Well, I'm super humble, and I 327 00:17:24,916 --> 00:17:27,316 Speaker 1: thank you for participating and for caring about it. You know, 328 00:17:27,316 --> 00:17:29,956 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's probably the coolest thing I've ever 329 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 1: done in this life, you know, if I would have 330 00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: picked one. And I'm glad that other people share some 331 00:17:34,996 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 1: of my finess for it. Thanks for listening. That was 332 00:17:40,316 --> 00:17:43,236 Speaker 1: Reginald Dwayne Betts. You can find out more about Freedom 333 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 1: Reads at freedom reads dot org. If you want to 334 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 1: hear the rest of the series, subscribe to pushkin Plus 335 00:17:49,996 --> 00:17:52,796 Speaker 1: look for the last archive, show page and Apple podcasts, 336 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:56,596 Speaker 1: or go to pushkin, dot fm, slash plus, and if 337 00:17:56,596 --> 00:18:01,156 Speaker 1: you're already a subscriber, thank you. This episode was produced 338 00:18:01,196 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 1: by Lucy Sullivan. Music by Stillwagon Symphony