WEBVTT - Why DSA Keeps Winning 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:06.200 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.719 Welcome to it could Happen Here. I'm Garrison Davis. For 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.720 the past few weeks on Executive Disorder and some regular 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.320 episodes of this show, most notably the DSA Red Scare, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.759 I've been covering the ongoing battle for the future of 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.159 the Democratic Party, spurred on by a recent wave of 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.800 electoral victories by DSA in Pennsylvania, Colorado, and most notably 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:33.040 New York City, where last month the DSA doubled their 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.159 block of Socialists in office. This episode is another installment 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.240 in this informal series, and this time we are going 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.600 straight to the source by talking with the co chair 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.199 of the New York City Chapter of DSA, Grace Mauser, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.800 in an interview where we talk about everything from the 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.720 chapter's electoral strategy to their theory of power and what 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.240 organizers can learn from New York City DSA's recent string 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.279 of success. So, without further ado, here is my interview 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:11.000 with Grace Mauser, co chair of NYC DSA. To start 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.360 on like the most like broad picture aspect, what is 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:19.440 the Democratic Socialist of America If people are not super 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.280 familiar with like what the organization actually is or what 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:23.920 the point of the organization is. 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:29.240 Sure, thanks so much for having me. SO. DSA Democratic 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:35.640 Socialists of America is a political organization. Legally, we're a nonprofit. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.800 We're a five oh one C four, which enables us 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.560 to engage in a lot of different types of campaigns, 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:48.280 including electoral campaigns. But also we're very involved in labor work, 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:52.080 and we often partner with union the brink and file 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:58.000 workers for both internal union reform purposes and external demands. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.760 We do issue based campaigns. For example, in New York City, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.240 our Immigrant Justice Working Group ran a very successful effort 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.200 to conduct know your Rights trainings earlier this year that 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:14.760 trained over five thousand people in the city. So we 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.640 do a lot of different types of things, including social 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.960 things we have like book clubs and softball leagues and 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:21.679 things like that. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.080 The Run Club is a very formidable political group in 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:25.600 the city. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.320 The run Club is very popular. It's true, it's true. 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:35.080 They've really taken off. And how we are structured is 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:39.600 that there's a national DSA SO a national organization, and 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.079 then there are I believe over two hundred chapters all 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:49.119 across the country. New York City is by far the largest, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.760 I think for more than twice as large as the 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.919 next biguest which is LA, and the chapters engage in 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:02.520 localized work. But then we also try to have retcicipation 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.919 from chapters on national campaigns and questions. I would say, 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.399 where you know, we're not a party, not usually Americans 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.960 that some people are call some party or think we're 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.440 a party. We don't have a valotline, but we do 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:22.280 run people in primary elections, usually in Democratic primaries, because 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:27.200 we want our members to select and endorse candidates that 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.240 they think will represent not only their interests with the 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.760 interests of a broader working class space. And then we 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:38.960 want people who are elected to actually collaborate with DSA 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:44.080 and other outside organizations in a real and serious way 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:49.000 that the Democratic Party simply does not encourage and sometimes 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.000 even tries to stop. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:56.240 So obviously, within the name of DSA, there's democratic socialism 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:01.240 and socialism kind of broadly, what does DSA mean by socialism? 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.160 I mean, I've seen multiple articles specifically in the Atlantic, 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.800 really really concerned about what socialism means and the quote 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.000 unquote Trotskyist tactics that Dsay's is employing. There's been a 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.520 whole whole bunch of media coverage being scared of you 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.479 know communism and socialism, But what does like DSA mean 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:23.600 by socialism? 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.839 So DSA is what we call a big tent organization. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.880 There are a lot of different ideologies that are members embrace. 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:37.120 Some people are more social democrats that you might find 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.120 to be the standard in some European countries. Some people 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:46.440 identify as communists, for example. So what we mean by 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.559 socialism we try to make really concrete and demand base. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.760 We're looking at things like universal health care, passing bills 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.680 like Medicare for All. We are trying to make housing 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:04.000 more affordable by expanding the role of government in the 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.480 housing market through things like What's around Mamdani just to 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:12.000 help do freezing the rent. We are trying to make 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.159 universal childcare free right, Like public education as it currently 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:21.520 exists is functionally socialists right. It's the government providing free 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:27.200 education and childcare for millions of children, and for some reason, 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.719 it arbitrarily starts at five years old. We're saying, what 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.560 if we had that but a little bit sooner. So 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:38.960 we try to center our demands on these really material ideas. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:45.560 One because it enables not only leftists of all different stripes, 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.960 but all sorts of people to come in and identify 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.919 with these ideas because they know it would help their lives, 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.280 but also because warning these things will take a very 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.839 long time. So my day to day is not so 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.960 much concern with or the economy should look like in 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.240 one hundred years, but what we can achieve in the 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:10.920 next five, ten, twenty years. And you know, even if 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.400 I'm not a communist, but if I were, we're not 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.640 going to be a communists been ten years, right, So 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:21.440 what matters is actually making people's lives better now and 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.960 using the government to do that, which you know American politicians, 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.280 socialists and not have done for many decades before. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:32.800 You were talking about, like DSA is organizing to like 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:34.760 see what the country could be like in like five 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:36.680 to ten years. And I think something that people might 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:41.240 not be aware of is the past work that New 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.520 York City DSA has done the past five to ten years. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:44.760 Right. 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.120 I think people certainly saw or were drawn to DSA 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.479 around the election of Zoran And you know, maybe this 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.240 most recent like slate when, but this is this has 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.760 been kind of a long term project of like building 0:06:55.760 --> 0:07:00.520 power and experimenting with electoral strategy and can sing and 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.400 like the specific path to victory so could you speak 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.400 a little bit how n y CDSA has achieved like 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:10.920 this winning streak, especially like in the past year, and 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.160 like the build up to that wedding streak. 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:20.080 Definitely, New York City DSA really got serious in twenty sixteen, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.960 both because many people were inspired by Bernie Sanders and 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:29.320 then many people were horrified by the ultimate victory of 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:35.480 Donald Trump and that presidential election. In twenty seventeen, we 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.680 took on our first electoral races in the modern era. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.280 There was two city council races. We lost both of those, 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.680 but we did learn a lot and we gained a 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.040 new members or on them Donnie via one of those races. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.320 But something we learned is that we could certainly run 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.600 field campaigns, and by field I mean canvassing and door knocking. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.520 But we also all that hey actually a lot of 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.880 the skills that are required in other parts of the campaign, communications, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:11.880 political maneuvering, fundraising and budgeting. These are also things we 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.640 think that our members can do, and we really tested 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.679 that out in twenty eighteen. We endorsed AOC that year. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:24.320 But in some ways the bigger chapter project was wholly 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.840 as sled to our state Senate race where we had 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.080 members not only on staff but also basically helping in 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.760 the volunteer capacity almost every aspect of that race, and 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.040 we won. So from there we learned that we could 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.839 teach ourselves and begin to replicate the skills of not 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.520 only canvassing, but all these other skills that the political 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.200 class and the consulting class in particular want to believe 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.600 that they have a monopoly on that they're so hard 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.920 to understand that you simply must pay them tens of 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.280 thousands of dollars. So we have built out from there. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.920 We have now sixteen Socialist in office at the state 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.680 legislature level, not only in New York City but also 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.680 in Midhudson Valley and in Buffalo, and we have four 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:21.720 city council members and now three Congress members. Some of 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.079 those came posts Aaron, but most of them came pre 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.359 zoron And it was just really nose to the grindstone 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.199 kind of work, knocking on a lot of doors, replicating skills, 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.840 fundraising from small dollar donors. And we lost some of 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:41.080 our races. I think we've probably lost a little less 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.320 than half of the races we'd won, but we took 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.720 some big swings, but strategic swings. So these kind of 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:53.120 skills developed over time and really formed the foundation and 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:58.000 the backbone of the Saron's campaign. So for many Durans 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.800 seem to come out of nowhere. But his first campaign event, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.080 his field launch in December of twenty twenty four, when 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.520 no one had really heard of him as a series candidate, 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.760 had five hundred people at it, which I would guess 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:18.000 is bigger than any other candidate had at any point 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.959 in the race. And that's because DSA members knew him, 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.560 were really excited about what this meant, and also knew 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.120 exactly what kind of work would be required to make 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.480 this race successful. And it was work of basically building 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.080 out huge infrastructure and knocking on millions of doors so 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:39.600 that we could talk to voters. 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.920 Yeah, one of the most impressive things is this sort 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.520 of like like parallel campaign structure that DSA has has 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.520 developed that you don't need to go through the regular 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.000 channels of like consultants, sort of like inside baseball of politics. 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:55.800 And I got people go off and get very confused 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.960 about like what the word like party means, right, because 0:10:57.960 --> 0:10:59.719 party in Europe is something very different than what it 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.359 means in the US, But in terms of running in primaries, 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.920 the DSA often has to go up against the party 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:13.280 infrastructure of the Democratic Party establishment itself. And the fact 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.520 that DSA has been able to, especially in the past 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.439 two years, like outorganize the local political establishment has been 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:21.920 like one of the most impressive feats. And like I've 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.360 been able to see this in person. I'm in Brooklyn 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.600 in the you know, the past two months, I had 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.800 multiple DSA canvassers come to my door. I received a 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.840 truly absurd amount of Maler's. There was, you know, people 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.760 canvassing on the sidewalk, you know, all the time, you know, 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.280 same thing, same thing in Ridgewood and Queens a lot 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.080 of canvassers there, especially going into the mayoral race. Something 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:44.480 that stuck in my mind a lot is I used 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.240 to live in Atlanta. Some like friends of friends, people 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.600 I didn't know, but people I kind of loosely knew 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.480 of were paid to do canvassing for the twenty twenty 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.959 four presidential election for the Democratic Party. They were basically 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:57.800 just operating kind of like a scam, Like they did 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.920 not actually do any of the work. They basically sat 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.199 in like a parking lot and scrolled on their phone. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.640 And something that makes the DSA's form of canvasing so 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.640 different is that the people who are actually involved in 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.960 actually care about the political project, right, They're actually like 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:15.320 invested in these candidates, invested in you know, putting forward 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.760 this like working class politics and are not just getting 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.959 a paycheck from the DNC, And that changes the way 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.400 that they do canvassing on the ground. I know this, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:24.920 this is something that you refer to as like the 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.280 DSA difference. Could you briefly touch on like what the 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:29.839 DSA difference like represents? 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:35.319 Yeah, it really for me, starts from the endorsement process, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:40.600 which is very long and quite rigorous, but also extremely democratic, 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:46.240 and because of that, people really feel bought in to 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.480 the races that we endorse. I mean, if you come 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:54.520 to an endorsement forum, it's said over and over again, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.880 if you would not personally be interested in canvassing for 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.360 this candidate, do not vote to And that's a kind 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.760 of an easy standard we try to share with members 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.520 on top of a lot of strategy and data consideration, 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:11.840 and there's a lot of things that go into it. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.640 But for is that, like will you go to this? 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.119 If not, how can we expect others to that initial 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:24.760 buy in, That initial ownership that members have over what 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:30.480 races we've run and why really extends then into the 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.760 entirety of the campaign. So our campaigns do have staff, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.680 and of course larger campaigns have more staff, but we 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:43.720 also have a practice of really elevating volunteers who show 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.920 capacity and interest to be more engaged in strategy. So 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.960 canvassers are also strategic actors. That's sort of the first 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.880 rung of engagement. I mean, chemisty could just be like, oh, 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.240 go out and do this, but we we really actively 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.640 seek to create a feedback loop between canvassing and other 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.520 parts of a campaign. So not only is canvassing data 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:14.120 of course very critical and tracking ID progress and things 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.839 like that, but we also teach our field leads to 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:23.960 lead canvases, to solicit feedback and to systematize that feedback. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.240 What are you hearing on the doors? Did you meet 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.960 anyone interesting? Should we follow up with that person? And 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:34.440 I've seen in real time our messaging overall change because 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.240 of feedback that canvassers are getting on the doors From 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.560 the next rung. If a canvuser is really great and excited, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.800 we often encourage them to become a field lead. These 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:51.560 are pretty intensive and high responsibility jobs. So these people 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:58.520 manage logistics, they run trainings, they move materials around if 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.080 there are problems or questions that come up during a 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.440 canvas or after. They're the first point of contact for 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:10.600 these volunteers. They're really quite skilled leaders, and we try 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.920 to create as many of these people as possible, and 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.840 that's kind of the next rung of engagement from there. 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.200 It sort of varies from campaign to a campaign, but 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.320 on most of the campaigns that I've seen, you have 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:31.480 robust volunteer teams around all of these functional areas. There's 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:35.840 a fundraising team who are trying to execute not only 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.680 comms and digital strategy, but also peer to fear fundraising 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:44.280 and house parties. There is a communications team who, yes, 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.680 we're closely with staff often, but is drafting and helping 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.120 produce a level of content that you know, if you're 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.920 a state assembly race and you have two staffers, it's 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.240 pretty hard to produce as much content as you might want. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:15:59.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.440 There's research who are helping do opoh and helping figure 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.960 out what stories we might be able to place in 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:11.600 the press. So these areas that can be pretty opaque 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.080 in some ways and are not often a visible part 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.800 of the political process. We really try to open up 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.320 and invite people into and then we talk openly about 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.960 that in our debriefs and also in our endorsement forums themselves. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.360 And I guess something else that people might not be 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:30.320 fully aware of that there's because there's kind of like 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.600 two ways, like fielding candidates. Candidates can be DSA endorsed, 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.200 and then you can have DSA members who then run 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.080 for office. And for the people who are more kind 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.240 of like outside of the organization but seek seek a 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.800 DSA endorsement. If they secure it, they then get access 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.720 right to this to this this whole like on the 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.560 ground like organizing network, and that could be very appealing, 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.680 But there's certain things that endorsement is like contingent on 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.280 in terms of like platform. As you said, it's a 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.160 pretty it's a pretty intensive process actually to get a 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:15.680 DSA endorsement. After the series of victories New York DSA 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.080 has had the past few months, has that affected the 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.399 size of the membership in like any like notable ways, 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.520 Like is that grown the man up on the ground 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.320 volunteers like that? Whatever the next campaigns are oh absolutely. 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:32.280 I mean, of course we are subject to like macro 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:37.560 political trends. Right, we see large jumps when there's a 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.359 presidential election, like we saw it in twenty sixteen. I 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.160 saw it again in twenty twenty and in twenty four. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.080 But you know, not every campaign results in a huge 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.320 membership boost. I think they do all result in a 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.720 large capacity boost because even if we're not gaining new 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.439 people numerically, we're expanding the skill set of people who 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:05.000 are there. But last year, certainly we gained a lot 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.679 of a lot of members between the time that Zaron 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.680 announced his campaign in the fall of twenty twenty four 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.240 and now we've almost tripled in size in New York City, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.919 and between the primary elections this year so June twenty 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:27.680 third and today, so about a month, we have gained 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:32.399 over a thousand members. So we are obviously helped along 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.399 by like high profile wins too that the media is 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.280 really interested in covering, and then we get kind of 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.479 more eyeballs on our ideas and more interest in the 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.560 project overall. So there are some wins that results in 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:51.159 a lot of members, but every win I think expands capacity, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.480 and even losses expand capacity because we're teaching people these 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.439 skills and we're able to better replicate ourselves for a 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:00.440 future size les. 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.720 I'm sure, as most people are aware, we're right in 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.680 the middle of like a huge debate right now over 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.439 the future of the Democratic Party. And you know, this 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.399 debate is being waged onlines, being waged in the newspaper, 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.879 it's on TV news, TV, and most importantly right in 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.919 the in the primaries right and then eventually the general elections. 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.199 You know, it seems like every week The Atlantic has 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.280 a new article out about how scary the Democratic Socialists are, 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.560 as I mentioned, I think today they put out a 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:35.360 brand new article about like the secret like Trotskyism of DSA. 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.720 I saw that, which I mean, all these articles suggest 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.760 to me that they neither understand DSA nor do they 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:47.440 understand the history or ideology they're commaring us too. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.240 Yeah, but it's been really interesting, especially after the winds 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:57.480 in New York and Colorado and Pennsylvania, hopefully in Wisconsin. 0:19:57.720 --> 0:19:59.440 But this past month we've seen more and more like 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:04.879 establishment Democrats join people like President Trump and Fox News 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.960 in effectively declaring war on the DSA and like the 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.800 left wing of the party. And you know, there's this 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.000 idea that you see in the Atlantic Washington Post that, 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.399 you know, communists and socialists are taking over the Democratic Party. 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.040 But I think for a chunk of the people listening 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.960 to this show, their concerns are probably more of the opposite, 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.480 that by running as a Democrat, these Democratic socialist candidates 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.960 risk being captured and like brought into the very party 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.760 establishment that they're trying to oppose. I guess i'd like 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.399 you to speak on what is the nature of the 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.600 DSA's relationship to the Democratic Party. 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.239 Yeah, I mean the thing about the Democratic Party that 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:47.800 I think a lot of media and political pundits miss 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.760 is that there's no one to have a relationship with, 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.680 right Like, the Democratic Party is three boys in a suit, 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.400 Like there's no one to talk to. That's why they 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.439 can't act like a party in Europe. I mean, of 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.359 course there are electoral and balid reasons for that as well, 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:10.800 But the Democratic Party does not really organize either voters 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.600 who are Democrats, right Like, no one has ever attempted 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.679 to organize me as a Democrat because I am a 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:22.880 registered Democrat. Nor is there really a serious effort to 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:29.040 organize Democratic elected officials as a block and move in 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.879 the same direction like that infrastructure simply doesn't exist. So 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.120 I feel like the risk of being captured is only 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.920 a risk in so far as DSA does not try 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:47.119 to keep our own people organized and acting as a block, 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.840 which is very much central to our project. And in 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.399 New York City, for example, we have weekly meetings with 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.600 both our state legislators and our city council members, and 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:04.360 now we regular meetings with administration officials as well in 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.919 the mayoral administration that try to keep us all on 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.000 the same page. When we have a big project that 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:14.760 we're moving on together, like tax the rich was this 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:20.359 last legislative session. We do really active organizing in those meetings, 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:24.080 like okay, have you talked to your colleague about this bill? 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.400 Will they move? Do we need to pressure them someway 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.000 from the outside, or do you think you'll get somewhere 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:35.240 in internal conversations. So to me, I don't feel worried 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:41.400 about being captured by the Democrats because the Democrats don't 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.080 have the infrastructure to capture people. The people who can 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:50.520 capture you are like moneyed interests, right, big corporations ensure 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:54.360 sometimes they act through the Democratic Party, But for us, 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.399 that's such a clear red line that I don't feel 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:02.080 super concerned about it. The more complicated questions are not 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:07.159 so much of capture, but of when do we compromise right. Sure, 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:09.439 we could be a block of people who vote know 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:14.280 on every budget, right, every state budget, every city budget 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.720 is politically compromised. It's not enough. They never tax the 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:23.320 rich enough, they never fund public services enough. It's it's 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.920 never good. But if we always say no, then can 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:30.800 we get any any wins? What kind of wins are 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:35.240 the the non reformist reforms we might be looking for? 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:41.400 And deciding that collectively doesn't mean our choice is always correct, 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:44.840 but I think it's much more likely to be correct 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.200 than if we let even someone who's that committed Democratic 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.200 Socialist kind of go out on their own and try 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.720 to make those decisions by themselves. The collectiveness and the 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:58.840 connection to DSA, I think is the biggest barrier to 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.960 the capture that people are worried about. Whereas if we 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:07.240 just say no to everything, if we ran as third party, 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:09.520 I think, well, if we've ran a third party, I 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:12.320 don't think we'd ever win. But if we just say 0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:16.840 no to everything, and our orientation is as like a 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:22.080 morally upstanding group that doesn't achieve anything. I think we 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:25.959 lose our credibility not only in the eyes of like 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:30.000 the political class and of other politicians, but in the 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:32.639 eyes of voters. Right now, we can look at a 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:36.040 voter have a conversation on a door about how we 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:39.639 are a different type of politician because look at what 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:43.080 Saran has already done. Sarn froze your rent. Yeah, we 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:46.159 are the group behind Zoran. Don't you want more people 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:48.600 like him? And if Saran hadn't frozen the rent, that 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:50.640 would be a much harder conversation to have. 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:55.000 No, it is really easy to point to the delivering 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:57.239 of goods and be like, yeah, this is what we 0:24:57.280 --> 0:25:00.040 are about and this is actually you know, improving the 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:02.280 lives of workers, and like that is what matters. What 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:06.000 else is this whole project for? I can understand that, 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:08.679 you know, people are concerned with like the idea of 0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:12.840 like holding politicians accountable, right, holding politicans accountable to this 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.840 working class platform that they're running on that they were 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:19.320 elected to represent, that the organizing put them into office 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:22.240 to fulfill. But I think one of the biggest ways 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:26.160 to do that is through a mass membership organization like DSA, 0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:30.280 because not only does it provide you know, campaign infrastructure 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:33.000 which could help them get re elected if they stick 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.720 to this vision, but it also provides this sort of 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:39.640