1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 2: Welcome to it could Happen Here. I'm Garrison Davis. For 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: the past few weeks on Executive Disorder and some regular 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: episodes of this show, most notably the DSA Red Scare, 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: I've been covering the ongoing battle for the future of 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party, spurred on by a recent wave of 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: electoral victories by DSA in Pennsylvania, Colorado, and most notably 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: New York City, where last month the DSA doubled their 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 2: block of Socialists in office. This episode is another installment 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 2: in this informal series, and this time we are going 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: straight to the source by talking with the co chair 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 2: of the New York City Chapter of DSA, Grace Mauser, 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: in an interview where we talk about everything from the 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: chapter's electoral strategy to their theory of power and what 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: organizers can learn from New York City DSA's recent string 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 2: of success. So, without further ado, here is my interview 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: with Grace Mauser, co chair of NYC DSA. To start 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: on like the most like broad picture aspect, what is 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: the Democratic Socialist of America If people are not super 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: familiar with like what the organization actually is or what 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: the point of the organization is. 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: Sure, thanks so much for having me. SO. DSA Democratic 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: Socialists of America is a political organization. Legally, we're a nonprofit. 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: We're a five oh one C four, which enables us 25 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: to engage in a lot of different types of campaigns, 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: including electoral campaigns. But also we're very involved in labor work, 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: and we often partner with union the brink and file 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: workers for both internal union reform purposes and external demands. 29 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: We do issue based campaigns. For example, in New York City, 30 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: our Immigrant Justice Working Group ran a very successful effort 31 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: to conduct know your Rights trainings earlier this year that 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: trained over five thousand people in the city. So we 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: do a lot of different types of things, including social 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: things we have like book clubs and softball leagues and 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: things like that. 36 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: The Run Club is a very formidable political group in 37 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: the city. 38 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: The run Club is very popular. It's true, it's true. 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: They've really taken off. And how we are structured is 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: that there's a national DSA SO a national organization, and 41 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: then there are I believe over two hundred chapters all 42 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: across the country. New York City is by far the largest, 43 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: I think for more than twice as large as the 44 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: next biguest which is LA, and the chapters engage in 45 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: localized work. But then we also try to have retcicipation 46 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: from chapters on national campaigns and questions. I would say, 47 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 1: where you know, we're not a party, not usually Americans 48 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: that some people are call some party or think we're 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: a party. We don't have a valotline, but we do 50 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: run people in primary elections, usually in Democratic primaries, because 51 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: we want our members to select and endorse candidates that 52 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: they think will represent not only their interests with the 53 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: interests of a broader working class space. And then we 54 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: want people who are elected to actually collaborate with DSA 55 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: and other outside organizations in a real and serious way 56 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: that the Democratic Party simply does not encourage and sometimes 57 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: even tries to stop. 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: So obviously, within the name of DSA, there's democratic socialism 59 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: and socialism kind of broadly, what does DSA mean by socialism? 60 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen multiple articles specifically in the Atlantic, 61 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: really really concerned about what socialism means and the quote 62 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: unquote Trotskyist tactics that Dsay's is employing. There's been a 63 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: whole whole bunch of media coverage being scared of you 64 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 2: know communism and socialism, But what does like DSA mean 65 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: by socialism? 66 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: So DSA is what we call a big tent organization. 67 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: There are a lot of different ideologies that are members embrace. 68 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: Some people are more social democrats that you might find 69 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: to be the standard in some European countries. Some people 70 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: identify as communists, for example. So what we mean by 71 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 1: socialism we try to make really concrete and demand base. 72 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: We're looking at things like universal health care, passing bills 73 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: like Medicare for All. We are trying to make housing 74 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: more affordable by expanding the role of government in the 75 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: housing market through things like What's around Mamdani just to 76 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: help do freezing the rent. We are trying to make 77 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: universal childcare free right, Like public education as it currently 78 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: exists is functionally socialists right. It's the government providing free 79 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: education and childcare for millions of children, and for some reason, 80 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: it arbitrarily starts at five years old. We're saying, what 81 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: if we had that but a little bit sooner. So 82 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: we try to center our demands on these really material ideas. 83 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: One because it enables not only leftists of all different stripes, 84 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: but all sorts of people to come in and identify 85 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: with these ideas because they know it would help their lives, 86 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: but also because warning these things will take a very 87 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: long time. So my day to day is not so 88 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: much concern with or the economy should look like in 89 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: one hundred years, but what we can achieve in the 90 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: next five, ten, twenty years. And you know, even if 91 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: I'm not a communist, but if I were, we're not 92 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: going to be a communists been ten years, right, So 93 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: what matters is actually making people's lives better now and 94 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: using the government to do that, which you know American politicians, 95 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: socialists and not have done for many decades before. 96 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: You were talking about, like DSA is organizing to like 97 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: see what the country could be like in like five 98 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: to ten years. And I think something that people might 99 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: not be aware of is the past work that New 100 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: York City DSA has done the past five to ten years. 101 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: Right. 102 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: I think people certainly saw or were drawn to DSA 103 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 2: around the election of Zoran And you know, maybe this 104 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: most recent like slate when, but this is this has 105 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: been kind of a long term project of like building 106 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: power and experimenting with electoral strategy and can sing and 107 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: like the specific path to victory so could you speak 108 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: a little bit how n y CDSA has achieved like 109 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: this winning streak, especially like in the past year, and 110 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: like the build up to that wedding streak. 111 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: Definitely, New York City DSA really got serious in twenty sixteen, 112 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: both because many people were inspired by Bernie Sanders and 113 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: then many people were horrified by the ultimate victory of 114 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and that presidential election. In twenty seventeen, we 115 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: took on our first electoral races in the modern era. 116 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: There was two city council races. We lost both of those, 117 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: but we did learn a lot and we gained a 118 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: new members or on them Donnie via one of those races. 119 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: But something we learned is that we could certainly run 120 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: field campaigns, and by field I mean canvassing and door knocking. 121 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: But we also all that hey actually a lot of 122 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: the skills that are required in other parts of the campaign, communications, 123 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: political maneuvering, fundraising and budgeting. These are also things we 124 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: think that our members can do, and we really tested 125 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: that out in twenty eighteen. We endorsed AOC that year. 126 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: But in some ways the bigger chapter project was wholly 127 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: as sled to our state Senate race where we had 128 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: members not only on staff but also basically helping in 129 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: the volunteer capacity almost every aspect of that race, and 130 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: we won. So from there we learned that we could 131 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: teach ourselves and begin to replicate the skills of not 132 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: only canvassing, but all these other skills that the political 133 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: class and the consulting class in particular want to believe 134 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: that they have a monopoly on that they're so hard 135 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: to understand that you simply must pay them tens of 136 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. So we have built out from there. 137 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: We have now sixteen Socialist in office at the state 138 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: legislature level, not only in New York City but also 139 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: in Midhudson Valley and in Buffalo, and we have four 140 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: city council members and now three Congress members. Some of 141 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: those came posts Aaron, but most of them came pre 142 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,359 Speaker 1: zoron And it was just really nose to the grindstone 143 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: kind of work, knocking on a lot of doors, replicating skills, 144 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: fundraising from small dollar donors. And we lost some of 145 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: our races. I think we've probably lost a little less 146 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: than half of the races we'd won, but we took 147 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: some big swings, but strategic swings. So these kind of 148 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: skills developed over time and really formed the foundation and 149 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: the backbone of the Saron's campaign. So for many Durans 150 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: seem to come out of nowhere. But his first campaign event, 151 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: his field launch in December of twenty twenty four, when 152 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: no one had really heard of him as a series candidate, 153 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: had five hundred people at it, which I would guess 154 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: is bigger than any other candidate had at any point 155 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: in the race. And that's because DSA members knew him, 156 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: were really excited about what this meant, and also knew 157 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: exactly what kind of work would be required to make 158 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: this race successful. And it was work of basically building 159 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: out huge infrastructure and knocking on millions of doors so 160 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: that we could talk to voters. 161 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the most impressive things is this sort 162 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: of like like parallel campaign structure that DSA has has 163 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: developed that you don't need to go through the regular 164 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: channels of like consultants, sort of like inside baseball of politics. 165 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: And I got people go off and get very confused 166 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: about like what the word like party means, right, because 167 00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 2: party in Europe is something very different than what it 168 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,359 Speaker 2: means in the US, But in terms of running in primaries, 169 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: the DSA often has to go up against the party 170 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: infrastructure of the Democratic Party establishment itself. And the fact 171 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: that DSA has been able to, especially in the past 172 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 2: two years, like outorganize the local political establishment has been 173 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: like one of the most impressive feats. And like I've 174 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: been able to see this in person. I'm in Brooklyn 175 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: in the you know, the past two months, I had 176 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: multiple DSA canvassers come to my door. I received a 177 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: truly absurd amount of Maler's. There was, you know, people 178 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: canvassing on the sidewalk, you know, all the time, you know, 179 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: same thing, same thing in Ridgewood and Queens a lot 180 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 2: of canvassers there, especially going into the mayoral race. Something 181 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: that stuck in my mind a lot is I used 182 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: to live in Atlanta. Some like friends of friends, people 183 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: I didn't know, but people I kind of loosely knew 184 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: of were paid to do canvassing for the twenty twenty 185 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: four presidential election for the Democratic Party. They were basically 186 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: just operating kind of like a scam, Like they did 187 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: not actually do any of the work. They basically sat 188 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 2: in like a parking lot and scrolled on their phone. 189 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: And something that makes the DSA's form of canvasing so 190 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: different is that the people who are actually involved in 191 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: actually care about the political project, right, They're actually like 192 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 2: invested in these candidates, invested in you know, putting forward 193 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: this like working class politics and are not just getting 194 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 2: a paycheck from the DNC, And that changes the way 195 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: that they do canvassing on the ground. I know this, 196 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: this is something that you refer to as like the 197 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: DSA difference. Could you briefly touch on like what the 198 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 2: DSA difference like represents? 199 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really for me, starts from the endorsement process, 200 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: which is very long and quite rigorous, but also extremely democratic, 201 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: and because of that, people really feel bought in to 202 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: the races that we endorse. I mean, if you come 203 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: to an endorsement forum, it's said over and over again, 204 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: if you would not personally be interested in canvassing for 205 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: this candidate, do not vote to And that's a kind 206 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: of an easy standard we try to share with members 207 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: on top of a lot of strategy and data consideration, 208 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of things that go into it. 209 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: But for is that, like will you go to this? 210 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,119 Speaker 1: If not, how can we expect others to that initial 211 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: buy in, That initial ownership that members have over what 212 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: races we've run and why really extends then into the 213 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: entirety of the campaign. So our campaigns do have staff, 214 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: and of course larger campaigns have more staff, but we 215 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: also have a practice of really elevating volunteers who show 216 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: capacity and interest to be more engaged in strategy. So 217 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: canvassers are also strategic actors. That's sort of the first 218 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: rung of engagement. I mean, chemisty could just be like, oh, 219 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: go out and do this, but we we really actively 220 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: seek to create a feedback loop between canvassing and other 221 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: parts of a campaign. So not only is canvassing data 222 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: of course very critical and tracking ID progress and things 223 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: like that, but we also teach our field leads to 224 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: lead canvases, to solicit feedback and to systematize that feedback. 225 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: What are you hearing on the doors? Did you meet 226 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: anyone interesting? Should we follow up with that person? And 227 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: I've seen in real time our messaging overall change because 228 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: of feedback that canvassers are getting on the doors From 229 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: the next rung. If a canvuser is really great and excited, 230 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: we often encourage them to become a field lead. These 231 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: are pretty intensive and high responsibility jobs. So these people 232 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: manage logistics, they run trainings, they move materials around if 233 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: there are problems or questions that come up during a 234 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: canvas or after. They're the first point of contact for 235 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: these volunteers. They're really quite skilled leaders, and we try 236 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: to create as many of these people as possible, and 237 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of the next rung of engagement from there. 238 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: It sort of varies from campaign to a campaign, but 239 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: on most of the campaigns that I've seen, you have 240 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: robust volunteer teams around all of these functional areas. There's 241 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: a fundraising team who are trying to execute not only 242 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: comms and digital strategy, but also peer to fear fundraising 243 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: and house parties. There is a communications team who, yes, 244 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: we're closely with staff often, but is drafting and helping 245 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: produce a level of content that you know, if you're 246 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: a state assembly race and you have two staffers, it's 247 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: pretty hard to produce as much content as you might want. 248 00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 249 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: There's research who are helping do opoh and helping figure 250 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: out what stories we might be able to place in 251 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: the press. So these areas that can be pretty opaque 252 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: in some ways and are not often a visible part 253 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: of the political process. We really try to open up 254 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: and invite people into and then we talk openly about 255 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: that in our debriefs and also in our endorsement forums themselves. 256 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: And I guess something else that people might not be 257 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: fully aware of that there's because there's kind of like 258 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: two ways, like fielding candidates. Candidates can be DSA endorsed, 259 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: and then you can have DSA members who then run 260 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: for office. And for the people who are more kind 261 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: of like outside of the organization but seek seek a 262 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: DSA endorsement. If they secure it, they then get access 263 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: right to this to this this whole like on the 264 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: ground like organizing network, and that could be very appealing, 265 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: But there's certain things that endorsement is like contingent on 266 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: in terms of like platform. As you said, it's a 267 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: pretty it's a pretty intensive process actually to get a 268 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 2: DSA endorsement. After the series of victories New York DSA 269 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: has had the past few months, has that affected the 270 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: size of the membership in like any like notable ways, 271 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: Like is that grown the man up on the ground 272 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: volunteers like that? Whatever the next campaigns are oh absolutely. 273 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: I mean, of course we are subject to like macro 274 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: political trends. Right, we see large jumps when there's a 275 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: presidential election, like we saw it in twenty sixteen. I 276 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: saw it again in twenty twenty and in twenty four. 277 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: But you know, not every campaign results in a huge 278 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: membership boost. I think they do all result in a 279 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: large capacity boost because even if we're not gaining new 280 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: people numerically, we're expanding the skill set of people who 281 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: are there. But last year, certainly we gained a lot 282 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: of a lot of members between the time that Zaron 283 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: announced his campaign in the fall of twenty twenty four 284 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: and now we've almost tripled in size in New York City, 285 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: and between the primary elections this year so June twenty 286 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: third and today, so about a month, we have gained 287 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: over a thousand members. So we are obviously helped along 288 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: by like high profile wins too that the media is 289 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: really interested in covering, and then we get kind of 290 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: more eyeballs on our ideas and more interest in the 291 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: project overall. So there are some wins that results in 292 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: a lot of members, but every win I think expands capacity, 293 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: and even losses expand capacity because we're teaching people these 294 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: skills and we're able to better replicate ourselves for a 295 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: future size les. 296 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: I'm sure, as most people are aware, we're right in 297 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 2: the middle of like a huge debate right now over 298 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: the future of the Democratic Party. And you know, this 299 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: debate is being waged onlines, being waged in the newspaper, 300 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: it's on TV news, TV, and most importantly right in 301 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 2: the in the primaries right and then eventually the general elections. 302 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 2: You know, it seems like every week The Atlantic has 303 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: a new article out about how scary the Democratic Socialists are, 304 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, I think today they put out a 305 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 2: brand new article about like the secret like Trotskyism of DSA. 306 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: I saw that, which I mean, all these articles suggest 307 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: to me that they neither understand DSA nor do they 308 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: understand the history or ideology they're commaring us too. 309 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's been really interesting, especially after the winds 310 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: in New York and Colorado and Pennsylvania, hopefully in Wisconsin. 311 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: But this past month we've seen more and more like 312 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: establishment Democrats join people like President Trump and Fox News 313 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: in effectively declaring war on the DSA and like the 314 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: left wing of the party. And you know, there's this 315 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: idea that you see in the Atlantic Washington Post that, 316 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 2: you know, communists and socialists are taking over the Democratic Party. 317 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: But I think for a chunk of the people listening 318 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: to this show, their concerns are probably more of the opposite, 319 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: that by running as a Democrat, these Democratic socialist candidates 320 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: risk being captured and like brought into the very party 321 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: establishment that they're trying to oppose. I guess i'd like 322 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: you to speak on what is the nature of the 323 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: DSA's relationship to the Democratic Party. 324 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the thing about the Democratic Party that 325 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: I think a lot of media and political pundits miss 326 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: is that there's no one to have a relationship with, 327 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: right Like, the Democratic Party is three boys in a suit, 328 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: Like there's no one to talk to. That's why they 329 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: can't act like a party in Europe. I mean, of 330 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: course there are electoral and balid reasons for that as well, 331 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: But the Democratic Party does not really organize either voters 332 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: who are Democrats, right Like, no one has ever attempted 333 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: to organize me as a Democrat because I am a 334 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: registered Democrat. Nor is there really a serious effort to 335 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: organize Democratic elected officials as a block and move in 336 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: the same direction like that infrastructure simply doesn't exist. So 337 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: I feel like the risk of being captured is only 338 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: a risk in so far as DSA does not try 339 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: to keep our own people organized and acting as a block, 340 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: which is very much central to our project. And in 341 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: New York City, for example, we have weekly meetings with 342 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: both our state legislators and our city council members, and 343 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: now we regular meetings with administration officials as well in 344 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: the mayoral administration that try to keep us all on 345 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the same page. When we have a big project that 346 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: we're moving on together, like tax the rich was this 347 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: last legislative session. We do really active organizing in those meetings, 348 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: like okay, have you talked to your colleague about this bill? 349 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: Will they move? Do we need to pressure them someway 350 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: from the outside, or do you think you'll get somewhere 351 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: in internal conversations. So to me, I don't feel worried 352 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: about being captured by the Democrats because the Democrats don't 353 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: have the infrastructure to capture people. The people who can 354 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: capture you are like moneyed interests, right, big corporations ensure 355 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: sometimes they act through the Democratic Party, But for us, 356 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: that's such a clear red line that I don't feel 357 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: super concerned about it. The more complicated questions are not 358 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: so much of capture, but of when do we compromise right. Sure, 359 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: we could be a block of people who vote know 360 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: on every budget, right, every state budget, every city budget 361 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: is politically compromised. It's not enough. They never tax the 362 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: rich enough, they never fund public services enough. It's it's 363 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: never good. But if we always say no, then can 364 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: we get any any wins? What kind of wins are 365 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: the the non reformist reforms we might be looking for? 366 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: And deciding that collectively doesn't mean our choice is always correct, 367 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: but I think it's much more likely to be correct 368 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: than if we let even someone who's that committed Democratic 369 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: Socialist kind of go out on their own and try 370 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: to make those decisions by themselves. The collectiveness and the 371 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: connection to DSA, I think is the biggest barrier to 372 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: the capture that people are worried about. Whereas if we 373 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: just say no to everything, if we ran as third party, 374 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: I think, well, if we've ran a third party, I 375 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: don't think we'd ever win. But if we just say 376 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: no to everything, and our orientation is as like a 377 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: morally upstanding group that doesn't achieve anything. I think we 378 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: lose our credibility not only in the eyes of like 379 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: the political class and of other politicians, but in the 380 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: eyes of voters. Right now, we can look at a 381 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: voter have a conversation on a door about how we 382 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: are a different type of politician because look at what 383 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: Saran has already done. Sarn froze your rent. Yeah, we 384 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: are the group behind Zoran. Don't you want more people 385 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: like him? And if Saran hadn't frozen the rent, that 386 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: would be a much harder conversation to have. 387 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: No, it is really easy to point to the delivering 388 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 2: of goods and be like, yeah, this is what we 389 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 2: are about and this is actually you know, improving the 390 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: lives of workers, and like that is what matters. What 391 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: else is this whole project for? I can understand that, 392 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: you know, people are concerned with like the idea of 393 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: like holding politicians accountable, right, holding politicans accountable to this 394 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: working class platform that they're running on that they were 395 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: elected to represent, that the organizing put them into office 396 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: to fulfill. But I think one of the biggest ways 397 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: to do that is through a mass membership organization like DSA, 398 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: because not only does it provide you know, campaign infrastructure 399 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: which could help them get re elected if they stick 400 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: to this vision, but it also provides this sort of 401 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: like like like social bond, this internal process to stay 402 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: being tethered together while they are serving or occupying a 403 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: seat of power. And once they're occupying a seat of power, 404 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: there is obviously constraints on that power, and there's going 405 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: to be contradictions that arise, and I think a lot 406 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 2: of people, especially online, view those contradictions as like a 407 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 2: bad thing, as like a reason to not engage in 408 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: this project alternative. I think those contradictions are actually very 409 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: often a good thing like this that is a sign 410 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 2: that history is in progress, that we are actually moving 411 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: forward and we're going to seek to resolve those like 412 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: over time, and dealing with those contradictions is good in 413 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: this sense that we have to deal with them. We 414 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: actually we are at a point in our strategy where 415 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: this is something to be dealt with as opposed to 416 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 2: not engaging in this sort of strategy like at all. Right, 417 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: And the power that a politician has that is running 418 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 2: on a working class platform, their power comes from the 419 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: working class, and the DSA is the manifestation of that, 420 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: and DSA can be an anchor. But I think there 421 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 2: also is these like questions of like this like long 422 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 2: term vision, right, or if DSA candidates are just going 423 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 2: to have to like administer capitalism in a more equitable way, 424 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: or if there really is like this kind of bigger 425 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 2: vision to increase the power of the working class towards 426 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 2: some sort of you know, ultimate class struggle for socialism. 427 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: And I guess, like, is that like balance in their 428 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 2: heads between this sort of like equitable administration and like 429 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: this ultimate class struggle. 430 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly is. I mean, thinking about how we 431 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: actually permanently change power structures and not just kind of 432 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: mitigate harm. I think is one of the things that 433 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: separates a socialist from progressive. Sure, some ideas that I'm 434 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: really excited about that I would point to that do 435 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: some of this. This didn't pass, but I think something 436 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: like the pro Act absolutely would that expand and makes 437 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: it easier for workers to organize themselves and empowers unions 438 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: is part of that structure and central to what democratic 439 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: socialists want to do. In fact right now, actually in 440 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: New York City, there is a bill held by City 441 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: Council member Tiffany Caban, who's a DSA member and a 442 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: city Socialist in office, called the Delivery Protection Act that 443 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: would functionally make it extremely difficult for Amazon to consider 444 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: last mile delivery workers as individual contractors and force them 445 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: to be employees of Amazon, which one makes sense, like 446 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: it's crazy that all these people in Amazon trucks that 447 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: you see all the time a contractors, when functionally they're not. 448 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: Everything that they have to do is controlled by Amazon. 449 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: And doing that we're partnering with the Teamsters on it 450 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: because doing it would make those workers unionizable, and that's 451 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: a huge workforce in your city. So that's kind of 452 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: the labor example. Another piece that I'm really excited about, 453 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: so yes, Ron throws the rents. That's an extension of 454 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,719 Speaker 1: government power in the market. But one thing that is 455 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: really promising is that the administration is exploring how to 456 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: legally recognize and empower tenant unions in a way that 457 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: you know, the workers unions are recognized, so that tenant 458 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: unions actually have bargaining rights with a landlord. And we 459 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: don't have all the answers for how that would look, 460 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: but that's I think another example of a type of reform. 461 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: A type of policy that is explicitly socialist and is 462 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: actually trying to permanently change the power relationship between tenants 463 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: and landlords, just as joining a workers' union changes the 464 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: power relationship between a worker and a supervisor. So I'm 465 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: not saying we have the perfect answers across all policy areas, 466 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: and certainly there are policy areas that socialists will will 467 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: advocate for and get behind that I would consider more progressive, 468 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: because our country and society is a very harsh environment 469 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: for many people, and mitigating harm is in fact something 470 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: good to Yeah, but it cannot be the sole thing 471 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: we do, and backing these types of non reformance reforms 472 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: ideas that change power structures is central to our work. Yeah. 473 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: I think this sort of tension between this sort of 474 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: more like social democratic administration of capitalism and like just 475 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 2: pushing for you know, like the revolution or something is 476 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: of false ecotomy, and oftentimes it can resemble the This 477 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: is bad some referencing Twitter, but there's there's this old 478 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 2: tweet that's like, don't siege Leningrad, take it immediately, like 479 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: don't build work in class power, just do the revolution. 480 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: But if you look at like where the labor movement 481 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: in the US is right now, we are so behind 482 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: where the movement was in the twenties and thirties that 483 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: allowed workers to extract the new deal. We have a 484 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: long way to go to be able to really threaten 485 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: capital in a serious way. And these minor social democratic policies, 486 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: rather than being a release valve, could in fact provide 487 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 2: workers more autonomy and the extra time needed to organize 488 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 2: and keep building power. Like another thing from Zoron's rent 489 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: reforms is that the administration is advancing a new rule 490 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: that landlords could only request proof of income or a 491 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: credit check, but not both in apartment applications, and like 492 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: that would be huge for people, right, and there is 493 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: there's there's ways to do small stuff like that. Well also, 494 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: you know, in a bigger sense, trying to just increase 495 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: the amount that our society is socialist. Right, that's through 496 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: public ownership of utilities and key industries, commodifying necessities of 497 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: life like housing or food, and democratizing the workplace. I've 498 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: been yelling about the Protect the Right to Organize Act 499 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: in my personal life a lot lately. I've been kind 500 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 2: of just like evangelizing about the pro act because that 501 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: that is something that like that. If that gets past, 502 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: that would be one of the biggest boosts to working 503 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: class power that we've seen in probably decades. 504 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean having Claire Valdes is a labor 505 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: organizer like that was her first organizing experience, and yeah, 506 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: there's no one like that in Congress right now, you know. 507 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: So I don't know that her first move will be 508 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: the Proact, but it's certainly top of mind for her. 509 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: That kind of relates to one of the last questions 510 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: I want to get to. But first, let's do one 511 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: last ad break. Okay, we are back. How does the 512 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 2: DSA actually communicate with and relate to a broader working 513 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: class base, like like a broader working classic coalition? Right, 514 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: Because this is the politics that DSA is about, and 515 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: this is the class that DSA is trying to like uplift. 516 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 2: What exactly is like the nature of the relationship between 517 00:32:58,520 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: DSA and the working class. 518 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: DSA is striving to be a multi racial working class organization. 519 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: I would say that right now, the majority, if not entirety, 520 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: of our membership, not only in New York City but 521 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: also nationally, are our working class. We embrace a pretty 522 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: broad definition of that because the only way you get 523 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: class solidarity is by you know, refraining from nitpicking who 524 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: is middle class, who's working class, who's working poor, and 525 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: like separating the interests of those groups and recognizing that 526 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: basically anyone who relies on their own labor in order 527 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: to live is working class, and they have a lot 528 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: more in common than the people who live off of 529 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: their own wealth, and that we should be united in 530 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: basically finding the interests of the uber wealthy who run 531 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: our lives and run our So I would say, we're 532 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: already a working class organization, but we want to become 533 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: one much bigger and also more diverse, more people in 534 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: different types of industry, more people from across different demographics. 535 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: It's trending that way over the last couple of years. 536 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: But we need to get more of the people who 537 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: vote for our candidates to also take the plunge into 538 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,479 Speaker 1: becoming a member and into actively organizing to better their 539 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: own conditions. So I'm excited about how things are heading 540 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: in that direction. It's also true that becoming all to 541 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: racial working class organization in the US is notoriously difficult. 542 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: You know, a country that's divided violently, not only by 543 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: class divisions, but also by racial ones. So we have 544 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: an uphill battle, but I think we're moving in the 545 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: right direction. And voting trends showed that too. Like Claire 546 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: Valdez one a majority of Hispanic election districts in her area, 547 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: do I lead to one of majority of Black election 548 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: districts in her district. So I think we're seeing that 549 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 1: these ideas have more and more mass appeal. Yeah, as 550 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: voters are looking, especially as establishment Democrats who are really 551 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: just continuously failing to stand up the Trump, and more 552 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: people are saying, maybe we need to try something different. 553 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: What's the socialism all about? 554 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: There was an article in Your Times by the time 555 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 2: you're listening to this, like a few weeks ago, looking 556 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: at like the voting data from the last June primary, 557 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: and it showed, like the divisions in voter behavior between 558 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 2: like DSA candidates and either progressive or establishment candidates was 559 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 2: not largely divided by race, but rather by age. Yes, 560 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 2: And I think that is another significant factor in this. 561 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: And we're also I notably holding on to millennial voters. 562 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: I mean, trends show that, unlike previous generations, millennials tend 563 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: to stay fairly left as they age in part, perhaps 564 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: because millennials aren't really gaining wealth as we age. 565 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: The capital system has nothing to offer them. Yeah, so yeah, 566 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: why why would you make like the fiscal conservative turn 567 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 2: to close out? A few weeks before the June primary, 568 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: Canary Mission started getting very scared of the dssay. They 569 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: put out this big, this big post on you know, 570 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: the the slate candidates. But once something that I found 571 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: to be more interesting rather than just like, you know, 572 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: talking about who these candidates are, they focused a lot 573 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: on like the organizational structure of New York d essay 574 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: and how quote new York is the testing ground. The 575 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: machine is already being built. The machine doesn't stop unquote, 576 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 2: which sounds kind of cool. 577 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: Oh right, they made they made it sound. 578 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 2: Like cool if you you cagnore all of the like 579 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: horrible evil parts of the Canary Mission, right of they 580 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 2: kind of make New York d essay sound pretty cool. 581 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: How you know it has all these members almost like 582 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand volunteers, all these field leads that coordinates 583 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 2: with candidates once they get into office and maintains that connection, 584 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: helps them, helps them stay accountable. 585 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: It's funny too. They treat it like a big secret 586 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,919 Speaker 1: like they're revealing something when like I literally just told 587 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: you the same thing, right, Like it's not a secret. 588 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: But you know, considering stuff like this and the DSA 589 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: momentum we're seeing across the country and the reaction is 590 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 2: getting from the GOP, the president and the Democratic Party establishment, 591 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 2: what can organizers and you know, chapters around the country 592 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 2: learn from New York City Dsay's electoral strategy or like, 593 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 2: what's what's something that I think New York d Essay 594 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 2: is doing that that you would like more people to 595 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: kind of understand or you'd like you'd like people to like, 596 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: you know, learn from or like take take something away 597 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 2: from what we've seen in these past few campaigns. 598 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing is, especially after zoron one, that I 599 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: noticed is a lot of people were really focused on 600 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: his charisma and his communication strategy, which Zoran is certainly charismatic, 601 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: and his communicational strategy was really strong and very intentional. 602 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: But to me, his communication strategy would have not gone 603 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: anywhere if one he hadn't been saying something real that 604 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: people resonated with. I mean, people are not totally fooled 605 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: by an empty charismatic vessel. I mean, otherwise Schlosberg would 606 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: have won in the New Year twelve, I think. But 607 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: also there was an extremely robust field strategy that meant 608 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: when someone saw a video was inspired or interested, they 609 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: could immediately find something to do to act on that feeling. 610 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: And often they could find something to do basically within 611 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: a mile and within a week of where they lived, 612 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: in what day. It was. The core of this round 613 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: campaign was not communication that was filled and building up 614 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: that structure and that muscle can take a lot of time. 615 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to jump from zero to a 616 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: mayoral race, but it is possible if you build out 617 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: the kind of deep ownership from like an endorsement process, 618 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: and also a culture of not only valuing volunteers but 619 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: really like depending on on volunteers. Like, the campaign doesn't 620 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: work if volunteers are expendable, if volunteers are treated as 621 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: like an honcilliary nice to have. It only works if 622 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: volunteers are both treated and truly are essential. And that 623 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: kind of creates a culture where people are valued, where 624 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: they become friends, where they keep coming back, where they 625 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: talk to their friends and family about the campaign, or 626 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: things spread out from there. So what I would say 627 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: both to DSA organizers in other parts of the country, 628 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: but also just general organizers who are interested in replicating 629 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: some of the success. I think culture is really key, 630 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: centering people who are not staff, who are not the politicians, 631 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: making sure that the experience of the campaign is actually 632 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: built around the experience of a canvasser and moving up 633 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: from there. And that's how you get a campaign that 634 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: is not only accountable to the people who are building it, 635 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: but that's really fun and positive and grounded and people 636 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: in place and not just in like kind of ideas 637 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: and videos and things like that. 638 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, no, there's a real material aspect. It's 639 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 2: not this just like idealistic kind of abstract thing that 640 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,919 Speaker 2: you're participating in or you believe in. It's a real, 641 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 2: like material process. It's a real engagement. One of the 642 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: funniest things I've seen recently is that there was a 643 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal article where they sent one of their 644 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: like hit piece writers to attend all these DSA events, 645 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 2: and the write up is essentially, uh, yeah, I had 646 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,240 Speaker 2: a great time at all these events. Everyone was really nice. 647 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: I saw that. Yeah. There was like one of our 648 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: one of our incoming assembly members, Yappazar Dobac, was like 649 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: given a shout out because he like remembered someone's name, 650 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Organizers remember people's face. 651 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: That's that's a central part of our work. 652 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 2: Where can people learn more about DSA or New York 653 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 2: DSA online or by any other means. 654 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: So yes, if you're in New York City or el 655 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: near New York City, you can go to Socialists dot NYC. 656 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: There you can see how I joined DSA. You can 657 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: look at our events calendar, which is robust. We're at 658 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: a point where we have basically at least three events 659 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: every single day that cover a wide range of geographies 660 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: across the city, but also interests. There's a run club 661 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: event on Friday, if that's of interest to people. If 662 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: you're not in New York City, there is almost certainly 663 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 1: a chapter where you live. You can go to DSAUSA 664 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: dot org to join, but also to find your chapter, 665 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,439 Speaker 1: find out about national work that's going on, especially as 666 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,399 Speaker 1: it relates to like the ongoing imperialist wars we have 667 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: that's often held by National DSA. So definitely encourage everyone 668 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: to check those things out. 669 00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 2: Thank you Grace for coming on. 670 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me. It could Happen Here is 671 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. 672 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 673 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 2: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 674 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 675 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 2: now find sources for it could happen here listed directly 676 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 2: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.