Speaker 1: Hm. I'm Robert Evans, and this is again Behind the Bastards,
Speaker 1: the show where we tell you everything you don't know
Speaker 1: about the very worst people in all of history. Now. Normally,
Speaker 1: at least, that's what the show is about, but this
Speaker 1: week we're talking about, you know, the Nazis, the modern Nazis,
Speaker 1: the Nazis who are marching in the streets of America
Speaker 1: right now, and who, in fact, we're marching in the
Speaker 1: streets of Washington, d C. Just a few minutes before
Speaker 1: this podcast was recorded. Uh. In part one of this episode,
Speaker 1: we dissected the new Nazi movement and how it's changed
Speaker 1: since Charlottesville. Uh. And in this episode, we're gonna be
Speaker 1: talking about what we saw at the Unite the Right
Speaker 1: two point o rally and and more to the point,
Speaker 1: we're going to be trying to answer the question is
Speaker 1: it a good idea to punch Nazis now? First, I
Speaker 1: should say nobody that we're gonna be talking with today
Speaker 1: punch Nazi. Today's rally it went pretty much as well
Speaker 1: as these sort of things can go, but it's it's
Speaker 1: still a question. I think it is worth debating. If
Speaker 1: you spend any amount of time online and anti fascist
Speaker 1: activists are goals. You will come across this Hitler quote,
Speaker 1: probably next to a picture of Richard Spencer getting punched
Speaker 1: in the face. The quote, as it is usually displayed, reads,
Speaker 1: only one thing could have stopped our movement if our
Speaker 1: adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day
Speaker 1: smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.
Speaker 1: And it's an Adolf Hitler quote. And Hitler did say
Speaker 1: those words, but he did not say exactly those quotes
Speaker 1: in that order. Um, as is usually the case with
Speaker 1: online quotes attributed to any sort of famous person, it's
Speaker 1: a little bit wrong. So I'm gonna read the actual
Speaker 1: Hitler quote, which was given during a speech in ninety three.
Speaker 1: Only one danger could have jeopardized this development, if our
Speaker 1: adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of
Speaker 1: our ideas and not offered any resistance. Or alternatively, if
Speaker 1: they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost
Speaker 1: brutality the nucleus of our new movement. So you see
Speaker 1: the difference there and the quote that's usually spread around online.
Speaker 1: It says Hitler was basically saying the only thing that
Speaker 1: could have stopped us was if people had beat us
Speaker 1: up in the streets during our rise to power. The
Speaker 1: actual quote is Hitler was saying two things. We could
Speaker 1: have been stopped if we'd have been beaten up in
Speaker 1: the streets, or if people had very clearly and very
Speaker 1: cogently elucidated what we were about, what we wanted, and
Speaker 1: made it clear to everyone what our goals were and
Speaker 1: what our plans were. That could have stopped us, too,
Speaker 1: especially if the people doing it had been nonviolent. So
Speaker 1: Hitler's opinion on the matter is a little bit more
Speaker 1: multifaceted than is usually presented, And so the question of
Speaker 1: whether or not it's a good idea to punch Nazis
Speaker 1: is a little bit more complicated than anti Nazi activists
Speaker 1: like to feel. And I say this as someone who
Speaker 1: has just done some anti Nazi activism, So I'm not
Speaker 1: uh inherently against the idea of hitting these people either,
Speaker 1: It's it's a complicated issue. I think there's a couple
Speaker 1: of things we need to keep in mind before we
Speaker 1: get into our discussion. One of them is that in
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties and German during the rise
Speaker 1: of the Nazi Party. There were constant riots and running
Speaker 1: street bad all across Weimar, Germany. And in the mid
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties when this was all going on, Berlin was
Speaker 1: known as the reddest city in Europe. As we talked
Speaker 1: about on our Non Nazi Bastards episode, Berlin was if
Speaker 1: you were gay, if you were trans, if you were progressive,
Speaker 1: maybe the best city in the world to live in
Speaker 1: um and it was very much not a friendly place
Speaker 1: for Nazis. The rally we were just at had fifty
Speaker 1: or so Nazi activists or less in several thousand anti
Speaker 1: Nazi activists, and it wouldn't have been very different in
Speaker 1: Berlin when the Nazis first arrived. Uh Now, the guy
Speaker 1: that Hitler put in charts of Berlin when the Nazis
Speaker 1: first started trying to make inroads into the reddest city
Speaker 1: in Europe was Joseph Gebbel's Uh. Gebbels put in charge
Speaker 1: of the Berlin's Nazi branch, and his whole strategy when
Speaker 1: he gained that position was to send his very few
Speaker 1: Berlin Nazis directly into leftist control chunk chunks of the city. Now,
Speaker 1: Gebbels Nazis would fight with anti fascist activists, with communist activists,
Speaker 1: withist activists, and there would be street battles, and the
Speaker 1: Nazis lost a lot of these street battles. They lost
Speaker 1: a lot of people, some of them were killed. But
Speaker 1: the violence that this incurred helped inspire UH conservatives within
Speaker 1: the German government to be afraid of the anti Nazi activists.
Speaker 1: So it's not it's not clear that fighting Nazis in
Speaker 1: Berlin helped stop them. Um political moderates were alienated by
Speaker 1: the violence, and since they were closer to the fire
Speaker 1: right Nazis than the far left anti fascists, well, the
Speaker 1: conservatives wound up making cause with Hitler. And that's more
Speaker 1: or less what happened. That was the Nazis planned from
Speaker 1: the beginning and it worked out. So the question of
Speaker 1: what's to be done about these Nazis is complicated. Can
Speaker 1: violence make racists a freight again or does it only
Speaker 1: help them? In the lead up to the first Charlottesville rally,
Speaker 1: the fascists went in looking for conflict. In today's rally,
Speaker 1: it was a different matter. And today I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: talking with a round table of people that I attended
Speaker 1: this protest with UH and we're going to try to
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of whether or not it's a
Speaker 1: good idea to hit Nazis, and we'll also be talking
Speaker 1: about what we saw and how we feel about the day.
Speaker 1: So that's my thing. There's a little bit of time
Speaker 1: dilation between what the users or listeners listening are going
Speaker 1: to hear and what has happened in the conversation. So
Speaker 1: from 'all's perspective, I just finished reading a speech about
Speaker 1: the whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis.
Speaker 1: And from our perspective, we've been drinking for ninety minutes
Speaker 1: or more after getting done yelling at Nazis all day,
Speaker 1: So the listeners should be aware that nobody is sober
Speaker 1: in this situation. And then now we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about whether or not it's a good idea to hit
Speaker 1: Nazis and also what happened at this Nazi protest in
Speaker 1: d C. So let's let's go around the room and
Speaker 1: introduce our talkers about their Nazi yelling at experiences. That
Speaker 1: was good, That was a good line. I feel good
Speaker 1: about that. Well. One of the things that we saw
Speaker 1: early on. My name is Hannah at ginger Um. I
Speaker 1: was on the last episode over and my pod has
Speaker 1: his Kitchen Table cult. I host that with Kiaran dark Water.
Speaker 1: Um So. One of the things that happened early on
Speaker 1: this morning was at the Foggy Bottom metro station, right
Speaker 1: after the Nazis got off the train. They were about
Speaker 1: thirty or some of them, maybe less. There was this
Speaker 1: really fantastically angry old white guy with a British accent.
Speaker 1: He was like he was like an aging punk or something,
Speaker 1: and he was calling them you wankers, over and over
Speaker 1: and he left over the cops to try to, like
Speaker 1: I don't know, express his rage. And he had a
Speaker 1: bike and then he fell into them. He fell into
Speaker 1: the bike and they were shoving him and the cops
Speaker 1: hit him and he got kicked. He got kicked. I
Speaker 1: tried to get on video and I missed it. But
Speaker 1: whoever you are, you're our hero of the day, and
Speaker 1: this podcast is dedicated to you. Ran the British guy
Speaker 1: who who did one of the best leaps over a
Speaker 1: line of cops I've ever seen to try to punch
Speaker 1: a Nazi in the face. Regardless of what we land
Speaker 1: on visa v hitting Nazis is a good idea. You're
Speaker 1: a hero. And I want that to be clear to
Speaker 1: everybody that I'm I think that man is a hero.
Speaker 1: Should I ever run into you again, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if I would recognize you because things were pretty nuts.
Speaker 1: But if I should ever run into you again, I
Speaker 1: will buy you a beer, perhaps several beers. Please give
Speaker 1: us a shout out. We'd like to buy you a beer.
Speaker 1: All right, Nick yourself, I am Nick Wood. I am
Speaker 1: a former marine. I'm currently an apprentice farmer and also
Speaker 1: science fiction writer. And I'm kind of on team punch
Speaker 1: Nazis until they can't see. My name is Lauren Mario.
Speaker 1: That's my first protest ever, uh in life? So I'm
Speaker 1: overwere with different feelings and emotions right now or what
Speaker 1: I saw and how I failed, But punching Nazi Nazis
Speaker 1: is definitely something I did not I felt at one point,
Speaker 1: but then it gradually went away, as at the road
Speaker 1: taste moment. What are you feeling right now? Oh man,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, I can't believe it. People are
Speaker 1: still like doing things that my grandmother told me about.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm steal fighting the fight and my grandmother
Speaker 1: and grandfather was fighting many years ago. I felt, I
Speaker 1: feel like, we settled this twice twice? How many fucking
Speaker 1: times do we have to keep kicking the ship out
Speaker 1: of the fucking Nazis? Um? But well, kind of the
Speaker 1: way I feel, you know, you're talking about how the
Speaker 1: hitler was saying that either people being very like intellectual
Speaker 1: about it and very cojing like understanding that these guys
Speaker 1: are evil fuckers and then just like not fighting them,
Speaker 1: or them getting the absolute ever loving ship kicked out
Speaker 1: of them. Like I'm kind of on team kicks the
Speaker 1: ship out of them Nazis, because you know, they want
Speaker 1: to eradicate me and everyone that looks like me from existence.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, I think that the only way
Speaker 1: for that to be effective is for it would have
Speaker 1: It's more effective when like the town kicks the ship
Speaker 1: out of the Nazis and not a team of anti
Speaker 1: fascist kicks the shadow of the Nazis. Because when it's
Speaker 1: like Antifa fighting twenty five Nazis or whatever is going
Speaker 1: on or what you know, there's obviously the odds change.
Speaker 1: But like when it's a small group of Antifa fighting
Speaker 1: the Nazis, then you can you can be like, well,
Speaker 1: there's good or bad people on both sides, or people
Speaker 1: can be like, well, I'm violence is never the answer.
Speaker 1: But when the entire town of you know, Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: Gets up and like kicks the ship out of all
Speaker 1: of the Nazis, what that says is, don't come to Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. If you're a fucking Nazi. And I think
Speaker 1: that's true. One of the things that unsettles me a
Speaker 1: little bit about demonstrations like this, and I think is
Speaker 1: a legitimate risk to avoid it is that, um, the
Speaker 1: police are there. And I'm sure I know that because
Speaker 1: one of the police officers who was photographed d DO
Speaker 1: today has nazi Ish tattoos and has been photographed cosplaying
Speaker 1: as a Nazi. Um, So I'm sure some of these
Speaker 1: guys are sympathetic a Nazis, but most of them aren't.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of black officers, There are a
Speaker 1: lot of Latino officers. There were a lot of Filipino
Speaker 1: and Asian officers. I'm sure they're not Nazis, because why
Speaker 1: would they be. There's nothing in that ideology for them.
Speaker 1: But the nature of a protest, in the nature of
Speaker 1: the police protecting this tiny number of protesters from a
Speaker 1: much larger number of counter protesters, means that the police
Speaker 1: become the opposing force, and I don't know how to
Speaker 1: fix that, but I don't think that's a healthy development
Speaker 1: because it shouldn't be the police versus the anti fascist
Speaker 1: trying to get at the fascists. It should be, as
Speaker 1: you say, the community, the nation, everybody being like And
Speaker 1: maybe that's a free speech thing. Maybe we need to
Speaker 1: say that, you know, you have freedom of speech. We
Speaker 1: don't have the freedom of speech dyl fire in a
Speaker 1: crowded theater. Likewise, you have freedom of speech, you don't
Speaker 1: have freedom of speech to advocate for genocide and racial cleansing.
Speaker 1: And maybe we don't give these people a platform to
Speaker 1: speak so the police aren't put in a situation where
Speaker 1: they're protecting them, so that we don't have anti fascists
Speaker 1: yelling at police because they want to get to the Nazis. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the solution is, but it's clearly
Speaker 1: it can be done better than it's being done that
Speaker 1: I think that kind of on that topic, one of
Speaker 1: the things that would help is basically, so to preface this,
Speaker 1: we have seen multiple situations where the cops go a
Speaker 1: little off script and funk up the counter protesters. We
Speaker 1: saw that ship in Portland where a cop fire tear
Speaker 1: escranade at the back of somebody's head and we've got
Speaker 1: pictures of the cops after that happened, critically the back
Speaker 1: of his head, but they're granted, like they're like, this
Speaker 1: is fucking cool. And the thing is that happens to
Speaker 1: anti fascists and black lives matter and anyone fighting these
Speaker 1: assholes net all the time, the cops will funk up.
Speaker 1: The people fighting the Nazis are the racists or whoever
Speaker 1: whatever fucking assholes out there. But we don't ever ever
Speaker 1: see the cops break rank when it comes to dealing
Speaker 1: with the Nazis, when it comes to protecting the fucking Nazis.
Speaker 1: And do I understand that they have their orders and
Speaker 1: I understand that their jobs there to protect the Nazis,
Speaker 1: But what the thing that really needs to happen If
Speaker 1: the cops don't want to be the bad guys here,
Speaker 1: if they don't like hearing those chants at the protests
Speaker 1: of who do you protect? Who do you serve? Like
Speaker 1: they got real mad and there that one, and I mean,
Speaker 1: I just I like that, but they if they don't
Speaker 1: want to hear those protests, then they need to be
Speaker 1: just as willing to occasionally break the rules and funk
Speaker 1: up the Nazis, or let the Nazis get sucked up
Speaker 1: as they are to funk up the counter protesters. It's
Speaker 1: like it's again one of those axiomatic things. Either they
Speaker 1: need to be perfectly disciplined at fully protect acting the
Speaker 1: Nazis and the anti fascists like they need to be
Speaker 1: either either that they need to be utterly impartial mediators
Speaker 1: in this situation, which they are not, or they need
Speaker 1: to let the Nazis get fucked up sometimes so the
Speaker 1: Nazis don't get to think the police are on their side.
Speaker 1: One of the things that is really telling about that
Speaker 1: observation is you know who is vulnerable and who is
Speaker 1: not in that situation. The ones that the police are
Speaker 1: not going to break the rules around are the people
Speaker 1: who have the actual power. When the police are willing
Speaker 1: to break the rules, they know they're not going to
Speaker 1: have consequences for it because the people that they are
Speaker 1: breaking rank over are the people who are vulnerable in
Speaker 1: this situation. So, like with the situation in Portland, the
Speaker 1: anti fascist protesters are the vulnerable people here. And the
Speaker 1: fact that the Nazi sky metrocar of their own today
Speaker 1: shows that the system of power ultimately is reinforcing their message.
Speaker 1: And I think so this is one of the things
Speaker 1: that scares me is um. I am very sympathetic to
Speaker 1: the anti fascists. I'm very sympathetic to activists today. When
Speaker 1: there are chants like uh, you know who who do
Speaker 1: you protect? Or when there are a chance to fund
Speaker 1: the police, I understand the motivation because the police in
Speaker 1: this country. I think if you're a reasonably well informed person,
Speaker 1: you understand there's problems with law enforcement in this country.
Speaker 1: There's issues with how it goes down. The fascist activists
Speaker 1: and less these activists than other activists have been very
Speaker 1: good at getting the police on their side. Um, and
Speaker 1: there are there's evidence of this fact. In March thirteenth,
Speaker 1: the Holy and Security Analysts, in an email to local
Speaker 1: law enforcement in Tennessee, noted that the Traditional Workers Party,
Speaker 1: which is one of the groups that was behind the
Speaker 1: first United the Right protest quote, typically is not the issue,
Speaker 1: but rather opposing groups. In April, police in Georgia, and
Speaker 1: this is April police enjoyed the revealed they planned for
Speaker 1: massive violence at a local rally based on rumors that
Speaker 1: were spread by a far right wing three per center,
Speaker 1: which is like a militia group Facebook account that was
Speaker 1: claiming that there would be twelve thousand anti fascists at
Speaker 1: the party or at the the protests, and that they
Speaker 1: would be looting and rioting and whatnot. The police trust
Speaker 1: these people more than they trust the anti fascist activists.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure some of that has to do with
Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of police officers or a
Speaker 1: number of police officers have biases of their own, but
Speaker 1: something best to do with the fact that all of
Speaker 1: the racists at these rallies are nice to the police,
Speaker 1: and all the anti fascists are yelling at them. Um.
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to be like, feel sorry for
Speaker 1: the police or whatever, because that is not my my concern.
Speaker 1: But there are some concerns to keep in mind, including
Speaker 1: the fact that California police in a variety of counties
Speaker 1: have been recorded working with fascist activists against anti fascist activists. Um.
Speaker 1: There was one case of a fascist activist who had
Speaker 1: been arrested on domestic violence charge and the police, rather
Speaker 1: than investigating him on that, started questioning him on trying
Speaker 1: to get the names and identities of anti fascist activists
Speaker 1: based on their pictures and then assured him we're not
Speaker 1: looking at you as a perpetrator, We're looking at you
Speaker 1: as a victim. There was a fascist that they were questioning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a fascist they were questioning. So it is clear that
Speaker 1: their charm campaign against the police has not been ineffective.
Speaker 1: And again not to defend the police, but if you're
Speaker 1: just getting yelled at by these people all day long,
Speaker 1: I can see why the tiny group of folks who
Speaker 1: are being polite to you, why that might be more compelling.
Speaker 1: And this is not a right or wrong issues. Is
Speaker 1: purely a tactical issue of what is more effective, and
Speaker 1: I do you feel like the anti fascist side of
Speaker 1: the equation could more effectively dialogue with the police to
Speaker 1: let them know, we're not happy with how the situation
Speaker 1: is going down, but we're not angry at you. We're
Speaker 1: trying to get to that. I don't know what they're right.
Speaker 1: You're really walking a fine line there with home policing.
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a it's a it's a very
Speaker 1: valid concern, and it's a very real recommendation because it
Speaker 1: is effective, But it also is the sort of thing
Speaker 1: that like, yes, this anger is justified like like like
Speaker 1: attracts like. I have a couple of thoughts here that
Speaker 1: relate to how this stuff interplays with activists and race.
Speaker 1: So I think that you're not wrong, and that in
Speaker 1: a completely sterile environment, you know, these ideal physics experiments environments,
Speaker 1: I would I would be like, I would say, you're
Speaker 1: probably right that that they need to court the police
Speaker 1: and get them like to see about the anti fascists
Speaker 1: is like the ones fighting for democracy and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: because presumably if the police actually believe any of their oaths,
Speaker 1: then they would they would go along with that. But
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of it ends up being another
Speaker 1: one of the things that's very different when you were
Speaker 1: talking with mostly white people and when you're talking with
Speaker 1: mostly black people. I feel the same way about the
Speaker 1: argument as to whether or not to employ violence, because
Speaker 1: for black people, the police are a threat to our
Speaker 1: fucking existence most of the time. I grew up with cops.
Speaker 1: My dad was a cop. I grew up around cops.
Speaker 1: I used to feel safe around cops, and that was
Speaker 1: entirely incorrect. Then, like, they are not here for us,
Speaker 1: They are dangerous to us all the time. So the
Speaker 1: thing is that like, the fact that they're dangerous to
Speaker 1: us in this context as anti fascist protesters isn't different
Speaker 1: to me than like every day, So like, I don't
Speaker 1: care that they're against me, because they're always against me.
Speaker 1: I could get shot because they thought my phone looked
Speaker 1: as fishes. However, when anti fascist groups are primarily white,
Speaker 1: or when they're in places like Portland's, or when they're
Speaker 1: in like there, there are places where most the anti
Speaker 1: fascists are white and the cops are probably white and
Speaker 1: all of this other ship, Like, I kind of have
Speaker 1: a little more of that idea that you know, maybe
Speaker 1: the white and anti fascists should like get in good
Speaker 1: with the police, because the thing is, their relationship with
Speaker 1: the police is different, and it kind of relates to
Speaker 1: the way I feel about the argument about whether or
Speaker 1: not people should employ violence. It is all well and
Speaker 1: good for white activists to talk to each other about
Speaker 1: whether or not they should employ violence, because the violent
Speaker 1: rhetoric of the Nazis is by and large not aimed
Speaker 1: at them. So if there's a way that that mostly
Speaker 1: white people in this country, that is mostly white people
Speaker 1: um or at least a majority white people, could get
Speaker 1: together and find a way to fight back against this
Speaker 1: and push back and change the world without violence. Then
Speaker 1: do it, but understand that for the rest of us,
Speaker 1: this is never not been a fight to the death.
Speaker 1: It's just a slow fight to the death. And I
Speaker 1: think that's a basic entry level requirement for understanding to like,
Speaker 1: quote unquote be a good ally is to get that
Speaker 1: piece of it. And you were talking earlier about what
Speaker 1: they ANDIFI discuss about, like who's arrestable? Yeah, well that
Speaker 1: was that was a Standing Rock thing. I don't know
Speaker 1: because I'm not privy to antiplause. In turn, to catch
Speaker 1: the listener up. When I was at Standing Rock, there
Speaker 1: were a number of posters around this saying are you
Speaker 1: are you arrestable? Sign up for a variety of events
Speaker 1: because a lot of the Native American activists or Indigenous
Speaker 1: American activists who were active at that event had been
Speaker 1: arrested a number of times already, and if they were
Speaker 1: arrested anymore, they already had pending court cases. They could
Speaker 1: not continue to be in the front lines dealing with
Speaker 1: the police, and so they were asking for There were
Speaker 1: a lot of that standing young white, mostly early twenties
Speaker 1: early teens activists who had showed up. These are people
Speaker 1: who could stand have a couple of arrests on their record.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't suck their lives up. And so they were saying, essentially,
Speaker 1: use your privilege as a middle class white kid, because
Speaker 1: it's not going to be bad for you if you
Speaker 1: get arrested. So so stand in the front of the line,
Speaker 1: be in the front of these actions that we're doing
Speaker 1: to try to delay the construction of this pipeline. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's part of anti fad strategy because nothing. Actually, um,
Speaker 1: I was very right after the inauguration, I was very
Speaker 1: interested in things like Black Block tactics and the groups
Speaker 1: like that. One of the things when I was looking
Speaker 1: into Black Block, one of the things they were saying
Speaker 1: was people doing black black tactics need to be white,
Speaker 1: and probably meant because white dudes can get away with
Speaker 1: fucking anything. And like, if someone's got to run in
Speaker 1: and punch the Nazis and get in there and push
Speaker 1: the police around and break windows and set shot on fire,
Speaker 1: because you know, kinetic disturbance is part of what runs revolution,
Speaker 1: like make it the white people do it, and so
Speaker 1: like I didn't get involved in Black Block because I
Speaker 1: knew that if I, well, it might have been bad
Speaker 1: for my wife and her career. But like, but be like,
Speaker 1: if I got involved with black Block, it might be
Speaker 1: fun for me, but like, and it might be satisfying
Speaker 1: for me, But the very first time I ran into
Speaker 1: the police, I run the risk of being killed or
Speaker 1: imprisoned or just like a bunch of real bad ship
Speaker 1: happening to me. And I don't. I have My life
Speaker 1: affects other people's lives. And if it were just about
Speaker 1: if I were single and unattached, I'd be doing that
Speaker 1: ship all day. But I don't get to do that
Speaker 1: because I have to care about other people. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: So they say consequences for you as a human are
Speaker 1: low punch Nazis. But if you're in a place where
Speaker 1: you do not have the privilege of being able to
Speaker 1: afford that risk, there are other ways you can be
Speaker 1: smart to resist. There is an additional dimension to it,
Speaker 1: which is that, um, you have to consider it's not
Speaker 1: just okay, it's punching Nazis safe for you, Because if
Speaker 1: if punching Nazis were always good, and punching Nazis was
Speaker 1: safe for you, then if it's safe for you to
Speaker 1: punch the Nazi, punch a Nazi. But there's an optics
Speaker 1: battle that is being fought. There's a battle larger than
Speaker 1: the sympathy of the police, the sympathy of the nation
Speaker 1: where people stand and that is it is specifically the
Speaker 1: sympathy of white people. Well, yeah, I mean, for damn sure,
Speaker 1: what I was talking about this morning when we were
Speaker 1: recording about how campaigning with for North m indoor knocking
Speaker 1: and like hearing like moderates talking about, Yeah, this Charlottesville
Speaker 1: was ugly and these people are inciting violence, So we're
Speaker 1: going to vote against them, We're going to vote for
Speaker 1: the Dems. And so that's another thing, is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we have to be aware of the optics of this,
Speaker 1: and like, are we inciting violence? Are we like going
Speaker 1: low when they go low? Are we going high? Like
Speaker 1: are we meeting them at their level and giving them
Speaker 1: the terms of the debate? And are we giving the
Speaker 1: Nazis what they want? Because I think that's a valid
Speaker 1: question to ask, and I there are a number of
Speaker 1: quotes from and again in the first part of this,
Speaker 1: I read through a lot of their conversations, so we
Speaker 1: do know a lot of things that they've said. We
Speaker 1: know for one that they're embarrassed at the idea of
Speaker 1: being outnumbered and being needed to be protected by the police.
Speaker 1: I found this conversation in a yeah and again, there
Speaker 1: were at least a couple of thousand anti fascist activists,
Speaker 1: and don't you find it interesting that the cops were
Speaker 1: not protecting any anti fascist protesters that when you saw
Speaker 1: much larger dubs of anti fascist protesters marching in the streets,
Speaker 1: they the cops were nowhere to be found. But when
Speaker 1: it's twelve Nazis, cops all around them securing them, Nazis
Speaker 1: got like a double row of cops protecting them from protesters,
Speaker 1: and the yeah, and then when and then when a
Speaker 1: crowd of anti fascist protesters as gathered around to yell
Speaker 1: at then we got surrounded by three more rows of
Speaker 1: cops on the backside of our group. They started like
Speaker 1: sneaking up and it wasn't they weren't protecting us. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I do think the question now that when people I
Speaker 1: think the larger question of how we treat police folks
Speaker 1: on the lattreet. Police is fine, but the question of
Speaker 1: who do you protect, like, why is that? Why is
Speaker 1: it that a handful of Nathis get so like so
Speaker 1: much taxpayer money in terms of protection by police, and
Speaker 1: that you know, ten twenty times the amount of anti
Speaker 1: fascist protesters get nothing because the system is designed to
Speaker 1: support them. I mean, I don't want to say it,
Speaker 1: but doesn't it seem that way? It does, And again
Speaker 1: I want to make it clear, No, none of what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is a moral argument in favor of the police,
Speaker 1: because I'm not. And none of it is a moral
Speaker 1: argument favored of the tactics. What I'm asking is our
Speaker 1: favor of the fascist What I'm asking is is it
Speaker 1: an effective tactic to punch knots these? Does it bring
Speaker 1: us closer to our goal if they're not being Nazis? Well,
Speaker 1: here's um, you know, because we want to make compared
Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of ways, it's good to
Speaker 1: make historical comparisons between it's happening now and what happened
Speaker 1: in Viromar, Germany, because holy sh it, it's very fun.
Speaker 1: We're following them, following the playbook. There are even instances
Speaker 1: where people made quotes that like if you said, did
Speaker 1: this someone say this in Vimar, Germany? Or you know,
Speaker 1: like America, you're like artic guys please. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: there's a lot of value of that. But here's one
Speaker 1: of the ways in which it's different. The Nazis in Vimar,
Speaker 1: Germany were actually tough fuckers. Yeah, they all survived the
Speaker 1: trenches in World War One, which is probably the worst
Speaker 1: combat human beings have lived through. Yeah, so when so
Speaker 1: when fighting them in the streets, you know, if you're
Speaker 1: not in a situation where everyone's fighting in the streets,
Speaker 1: when it's just like anti fascist and fascist fighting and
Speaker 1: both sides are equally dangerous, in the sides are equally competent,
Speaker 1: and they're both they're they're all I mean to some extent,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like when the punks fight the skinheads,
Speaker 1: Like both of those groups of people are well used
Speaker 1: to beating the ship out of each other. That might
Speaker 1: not be very effective because if you punch a Nazi
Speaker 1: who's used to getting punched, he's just like, okay, I
Speaker 1: got punched today, sweet, then like write that down if
Speaker 1: he's a proud boy, but he probably isn't. And that's cereals, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because like you obviously can't get your nose broken if
Speaker 1: you're naming cereals, And that's kind of the place where
Speaker 1: I kind of find a little bit of a wrinkle
Speaker 1: in that and when talking about that, because we were
Speaker 1: like optics is a definite discussion. But also the morale
Speaker 1: of Okay, I think of things as like, in tactical sense,
Speaker 1: the nasties are my they are my enemies, so I
Speaker 1: think of them like, so the enemy's morale is important
Speaker 1: because breaking the enemies morales that you win. Um, it's
Speaker 1: not actually about destroying them necessarily, it's about making them
Speaker 1: never want to fight you again. And with a lot
Speaker 1: of these fun years, they don't know how to fight.
Speaker 1: They don't they're not they're not Nazis in the sense
Speaker 1: that the Nazis and Rye or Germany, where they aren't
Speaker 1: tough bastards their Larber scariot that exactly, they're Larber's and
Speaker 1: so like when they're afraid of being outnumbered and terrified,
Speaker 1: we need to lean into that because one of the
Speaker 1: problems is that, like, it would it be great if
Speaker 1: there was like a Women's March style protests where it's
Speaker 1: like pretty peaceful, everybody's getting along, it's mostly just a
Speaker 1: giant rolling party, and we're like, yeah, there's you know,
Speaker 1: just like everybody's there. Everbody's been a great time. There's
Speaker 1: thousands of people. That's great when it happens. There was
Speaker 1: the Queer Resistance Dance party. It was it wasn't thousands,
Speaker 1: but it was big. Yeah, And those are good and
Speaker 1: they're they're great for the optics and it's really good.
Speaker 1: But it's also good and it's great for every and
Speaker 1: it's great time. And that's another part of it too,
Speaker 1: is it's great to see people having a great time
Speaker 1: just you know, peacefully resist in the Nazis. But it's
Speaker 1: also effective, you know, like for those of us that
Speaker 1: are going to be screaming at the Nazis and it's
Speaker 1: not going to be a peaceful live at all, Like
Speaker 1: even if no one's getting punched, it's like not going
Speaker 1: to be a peaceful live standing in front of a
Speaker 1: crowd of anti fascists for those people, Like the optics
Speaker 1: are not gonna be on our side anyway, because we've
Speaker 1: got these civility suckers like being like, well, you're not
Speaker 1: being nice. You shouldn't be swearing at it, Like okay,
Speaker 1: we've already lost the optics battle in that regard. In
Speaker 1: terms of like the moderate times on my side. So
Speaker 1: what's the next most effective part of my tactic. Well,
Speaker 1: the next most effective thing that I'm worried about is
Speaker 1: the morale of my enemy. And when these guys are
Speaker 1: literally weak little ships, like they're just lar birds, they're
Speaker 1: Nazi larber's. Yeah, And I think I think at this point,
Speaker 1: what with what you're talking about, one of the key
Speaker 1: things is like endurance, Like they are really enchanted by
Speaker 1: the idea of having it be a one and done takeover,
Speaker 1: like being able to just like overpower something. And that's
Speaker 1: that's been part of the the whole mission since it
Speaker 1: was first invented. And UM, being able to get large
Speaker 1: numbers of people to show up consistently over time and
Speaker 1: yell them down is going to show them that we
Speaker 1: can outlast them. And I do think I think over
Speaker 1: time is critical. So I'm gonna I'm gonna read for
Speaker 1: just a minute here, UM to go over some stuff
Speaker 1: I found in their own chats. One is from a
Speaker 1: January eighteen thread about a rally where Richard Spencer and
Speaker 1: thirty fascists had to be escorted past the crowd of
Speaker 1: two thousand protesters. This is what the Nazis said about
Speaker 1: that rally. Quote first guy in the threat, these are
Speaker 1: brute those are brutal odds. With enough discipline and hopefully
Speaker 1: a halfway decent decent police force, we can survive. The
Speaker 1: first response was due to it takes rule of law
Speaker 1: to protect thirty versus two thousand. Discipline means nothing at
Speaker 1: that point. The only thing keeping us alive is their
Speaker 1: fear of the police. Now, there was an other post
Speaker 1: that I found in a Facebook threat by Cat Snyder,
Speaker 1: who was marching today I think in the anti fat
Speaker 1: or in the fascist march. UH. Cat is an activist
Speaker 1: within Jason Kessler circle. She is a fascist activist UM.
Speaker 1: She posted in May when they were planning the rally
Speaker 1: that we just all got from that she had attended
Speaker 1: a Trump impeachment town hall near her home and called
Speaker 1: it quote absolutely frightening and said that quote the money
Speaker 1: in that room, the power, the numbers. So she was
Speaker 1: very scared by the number of people that she saw
Speaker 1: in opposition to her, and she was also very scared
Speaker 1: by the number of people that she saw a demonstrations
Speaker 1: against folks like Richard Spencer. And my question is, since
Speaker 1: optics are such an important part of the battle, is
Speaker 1: it more valuable that we be seen in Moss resisting
Speaker 1: than it is that we physically confront these people, because
Speaker 1: physical confrontation breeds, if not empathy, then at least more
Speaker 1: empathy than we want the Nazis to have. And the
Speaker 1: person I want to pose that question too first is
Speaker 1: Laurent over here. He's been quite quiet and just finished
Speaker 1: attending his first protest. So, Luran, sorry to put you
Speaker 1: on the spots. Wow you did? I did? I put
Speaker 1: you really on the spot? You really did? Uh? Boy,
Speaker 1: I tell you that, yeah. We basically I'm just open
Speaker 1: William still like I, um, I can't believe it, Like
Speaker 1: I really can't believe what I just experienced, the whole
Speaker 1: from the beginning to the end to the going back
Speaker 1: and seeing the costs presence, uh, and knowing how I
Speaker 1: already feel about the costs as it is, especially when
Speaker 1: it comes of my safety. You know, I know I
Speaker 1: never feel like it here for my safety, Like I
Speaker 1: don't want to depend on costs for anything as far
Speaker 1: as my safety goes. I think if you were repeat
Speaker 1: the yeah, you set up your mind instead and basically
Speaker 1: asking so the Nazis are clearly demoralized by the fact
Speaker 1: that they're outnumbered, right, Is it better to just outnumber
Speaker 1: them or do we need to physically confront them? Do
Speaker 1: we need to be violent with them? Or is it
Speaker 1: best to just show up and be consistently a show
Speaker 1: of our numbers against theirs? Oh okay, well, yeah, definitely
Speaker 1: I felt from my observation today was watching them, A
Speaker 1: lot of them flee as as the crowd got bigger.
Speaker 1: You know, I guess they don't like intimidation. They can't
Speaker 1: stand to be intimidated, which is uh yeah, Which was
Speaker 1: what I really noticed the most today was that I
Speaker 1: say a lot of them wrapping the flags up, moving
Speaker 1: of the way, like the larger the crowds got the
Speaker 1: latter it guy, A lot of them weren't, like, don't
Speaker 1: if they uh they completed buy in, or if they
Speaker 1: bought in and didn't realize I couldn't stand the heat
Speaker 1: or does that say, uh, he got a little hot
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, the hay to get out my kitchen
Speaker 1: wasn't even it was hotting what they would have spec against.
Speaker 1: It was only maybe that fifty of them at all,
Speaker 1: and they don't didn't even show up at the same time.
Speaker 1: From the watching the beginning of the march to the
Speaker 1: end of the march. You only have a small station
Speaker 1: jump out from the beginning, and he had others followed
Speaker 1: their own, and there were a lot of this from
Speaker 1: just observation, I don't know about actual numbers, there seemed
Speaker 1: to be a fair number that we're undercover, that we're
Speaker 1: wandering around, and that is kind of telling that they
Speaker 1: were unwilling to show themselves with the main group. They
Speaker 1: were unwilling to actually participate, but they were there with
Speaker 1: sticks and umbrellas in hand to use his weapons in
Speaker 1: case they got the chance. And explain when you pointed
Speaker 1: this out to me, and I man slain to you
Speaker 1: that I didn't think it was a problem because I'm
Speaker 1: an asshole, and I was completely wrong because they wound
Speaker 1: up being the secret Nazis that later led to almost
Speaker 1: a fight with the police. Right. So, Um, what I
Speaker 1: saw was there was a guy with a red rain
Speaker 1: jacket with the hood pulled up really high and it
Speaker 1: was zipped up over his face, and he was carrying
Speaker 1: an umbrella, and he was wearing a backpack, and he
Speaker 1: was with another guy who was all in black. Could
Speaker 1: have looked like an antiphop but clearly UM was not
Speaker 1: operating with them. And that was what I thought, as
Speaker 1: I just said he was all in black. He was
Speaker 1: like all in like you know, under armor or whatever.
Speaker 1: And he had a like a cane and was walking around.
Speaker 1: And these are all three white guys. And there was
Speaker 1: a third who was also wearing a hood and um
Speaker 1: a bandanna, and he had a like a wooden huge
Speaker 1: wooden stick stuck into his backpack, underneath his backpack holding
Speaker 1: it up. And it was like looking at them, I
Speaker 1: was like, three white dudes, completely independent, no ANTIFA like
Speaker 1: paraphernalia on them, Like you know, the Antipha was really
Speaker 1: persistent about like don't take pictures, don't take pictures if
Speaker 1: you want to support only groups and their own groups.
Speaker 1: And these guys were not saying anything like that, and
Speaker 1: they were really kind of skittish, and I was like,
Speaker 1: we have undercover Nazis here, look at this um And
Speaker 1: after I saw that, I started seeing them everywhere and
Speaker 1: uh later when we got out from dinner, that's what
Speaker 1: we That guy in the red jacket and his friend
Speaker 1: were the ones that were being surrounded by a crowd
Speaker 1: of Black Lives Matter protesters. So can you describe the
Speaker 1: experience that we had going to dinner and then after dinner, yes,
Speaker 1: so we walked out of older bit Girl. We figured
Speaker 1: this ship was over by then, so we we we
Speaker 1: did our marching, we did our yelling. The Nazis left
Speaker 1: and we started raining. We ate some enchiladas when we
Speaker 1: got drunk. So we come out and uh and we
Speaker 1: see that up the street there's this crowd and it's
Speaker 1: mostly people of color and they're angry and um. In
Speaker 1: our morning recording, Matt talked about the flag of Kikistan, Kikistan,
Speaker 1: So for people who are for thank you for doing
Speaker 1: the reggaet morning, for people who are, for whatever reason
Speaker 1: turning into the second part of our episode and have
Speaker 1: not listened to the first. The Kikistan flag is the
Speaker 1: flag of a bunch of Nazi nerd gamers based on
Speaker 1: like keck, which is essentially how Korean say l O
Speaker 1: L and like. They made this flag for their fake
Speaker 1: country of people who were putting out memes for the lulls.
Speaker 1: And the flag is based off of the Kriegsmrine flag
Speaker 1: from World War two, so it's based off of a
Speaker 1: Nazi flag, the German navy flag from World War two.
Speaker 1: It's a Nazi they love the flag that's inverted in
Speaker 1: inverted colors, right, essentially that and the Nazis love this
Speaker 1: is why they do fourteen eighty eight, which is where
Speaker 1: like the fourteen words and eight eight is like Hitler
Speaker 1: h is the eighth letter of the words or a
Speaker 1: letter of the alphabet, So Kyle Hitler is eight because
Speaker 1: it's like if you took a swastika and like filled
Speaker 1: in the spaces, it's like a digital eight eight. And
Speaker 1: they're literally that lame. I'd heard a totally different thing
Speaker 1: because it was Hyo Hitler And honestly, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: we saw the Kikistan flag and we walk up and
Speaker 1: we see that there's a bunch of people who are
Speaker 1: really agitated and there's a double line of cops between
Speaker 1: them and these two guys, and we asked what's going on,
Speaker 1: and these guys are like, oh, whether there's these like
Speaker 1: two low Nazis here and we've got this flag and
Speaker 1: they're just hanging out and all these cops are protecting them,
Speaker 1: and we're angry that the cops are protecting them. Um,
Speaker 1: and some aggressive chance they yeah, so there was some
Speaker 1: aggressive chance. I got started. Um, we're not going to
Speaker 1: name names. Definitely wasn't me. And and by aggressive it
Speaker 1: was we are many, their few, and who do you serve?
Speaker 1: Who do you protect? And in the cars one when
Speaker 1: you first explained that chant, by the way, Nick, you
Speaker 1: you meant that it is sort of like aimed at
Speaker 1: the Nazis. But then I realized as it took off,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, the police think we're talking about
Speaker 1: them and had kind of work for the police. There
Speaker 1: were less police than angry people there, and they got
Speaker 1: they got concerned when that one took off, which is
Speaker 1: be careful what you chant, which is if you're chanting,
Speaker 1: if you're a chanter, if you're chanting, be careful what
Speaker 1: you chant and when you chant it. Although I support
Speaker 1: your chant, by the way. So when this group of
Speaker 1: people started shouting at the cops saying who do you serve?
Speaker 1: Who do you protect, we suddenly realized that on the
Speaker 1: other side of the street there was a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of there were a whole bunch of cop cars pulling
Speaker 1: up in their whole bunch of cops on bikes showing up,
Speaker 1: and they blocked us into a crosswalk area. So on
Speaker 1: one side you had double row cops and then you
Speaker 1: had a bunch of protesters, and then on the other
Speaker 1: side of the crosswalk you had a triple and cops
Speaker 1: backed up by like multiple police vehicles. And if you
Speaker 1: haven't been to a protest before, one of the things
Speaker 1: that police will do that is very intelligent strategy. We
Speaker 1: have bicycle cops will use their bicycles to form a
Speaker 1: physical barrier and then stand behind or in front of
Speaker 1: their bicycles, but there will essentially be bicycle wheel to
Speaker 1: bicycle wheel and make a wall of bicycles and then
Speaker 1: stand to hold them up. And it's a very effective
Speaker 1: way of creating a mobile barricade. So they had a
Speaker 1: double row of that plus another row of police behind them,
Speaker 1: plus backup in cars. So it was a very intimidating
Speaker 1: situation and it seemed like kind of over the top
Speaker 1: for two Nazis, given that we were yelling at them
Speaker 1: because of a kick a stand flag, and it was
Speaker 1: just a very tense situation. And these were the guy
Speaker 1: is that i'd recognized room before. Yeah, you nailed it,
Speaker 1: and I figured they were just anti FO people who
Speaker 1: weren't with the main group or whatever, because I'm the bestard.
Speaker 1: One other thing we saw, um it was when we
Speaker 1: were winding down after part one of yelling at Nazis
Speaker 1: when we were thinking about, you know, hey, there are
Speaker 1: five thousand people here. We can we've been doing this
Speaker 1: all day probably a piece. Yeah, and so, and we
Speaker 1: were gathering we were grouping up and what did you drink?
Speaker 1: When we're gathering up, we were trying to find wrong
Speaker 1: because we want to go get our damn drinks. And
Speaker 1: a guy came up to us and said, hey, there's
Speaker 1: two Nazis over there that are like completely unprotected. Um,
Speaker 1: they've got no one, like they're like they're They're just
Speaker 1: there and they're like talking and ship. And the thing
Speaker 1: is at first, okay, I was a marine. I am
Speaker 1: was made to be a hammer. All of my problems
Speaker 1: look like nails. So I'm sitting here like, oh cool,
Speaker 1: where the Nazis. I'd like to go hit some Nazis.
Speaker 1: These guys are unprotected Nazis punched the Nazis And that
Speaker 1: was my initial reaction. And then it was like, um,
Speaker 1: and then I don't remember what some one of my
Speaker 1: compatriots here said something. And then I suddenly realized that
Speaker 1: guy that told us that was probably an agitator and
Speaker 1: he probably wanted us to start it was a provocateur.
Speaker 1: He was this like middle aged white dude who was alone,
Speaker 1: not working with anybody, and he gave us the information
Speaker 1: and disappeared and then he ran and like he was
Speaker 1: probably also a Nazi. And it's hard man. When you
Speaker 1: go to enough events like this, you get very paranoid.
Speaker 1: Because number one, there were a lot of people in
Speaker 1: the crowd with the journal So when when this all
Speaker 1: first started, just to explain to the listener, there was
Speaker 1: we were standing instead of essentially a metro station in DC,
Speaker 1: and the Nazis came out of the metro station and
Speaker 1: there was a line of police protecting their route of march,
Speaker 1: and there were anti fascist activists all around the outside
Speaker 1: of that yelling at these people, and journalists and journalists
Speaker 1: and the among the crowd of journalists there were undercover
Speaker 1: police and we knew they were because they had badges
Speaker 1: clipped their belts. So if some of what we have
Speaker 1: said in the last little bit here sounds paranoid, it
Speaker 1: is because if you attend a lot of protests, paranoia
Speaker 1: occurs because things that induce paranoia happen in protests, and
Speaker 1: sometimes you're wrong with your paranoia, but oftentimes you are not.
Speaker 1: Hana was not wrong in her paranoia, and I was
Speaker 1: wrong in my counter and her paranoia. You thank you.
Speaker 1: My paranoia is always right. And you know what else
Speaker 1: is right is the wonderful, wonderful companies that support this
Speaker 1: podcast with their products and or services which we do well.
Speaker 1: Not yet not, although I will say, if there is
Speaker 1: one anti fascist food product made out of corn based
Speaker 1: food like substances, it is the Derrito's company and their
Speaker 1: delightful products that is actually food food based. It's synthetic
Speaker 1: food food based. But cheese was consulted for some other
Speaker 1: products endorses and listen to these here ads. So we're back. Um,
Speaker 1: So I want to bring us around two. We have
Speaker 1: a big question and try to answer at the end
Speaker 1: of this if it's answerable. But one thing I want
Speaker 1: to get to now is do we think the Nazis
Speaker 1: won or lost in this rally? And obviously they were outnumbered.
Speaker 1: I do want to read a couple of of tweets
Speaker 1: Jason Kessler put up in the immediate aftermath of this,
Speaker 1: because those are pertinent where they treated from inside of
Speaker 1: bush he was hiding in no the metrocar that he
Speaker 1: was protected in. He was hiding in a bush at
Speaker 1: sometimes about something. Really. Yeah, I was flying around Twitter.
Speaker 1: Someone was like that was that was the last year
Speaker 1: rally was like spy, he was like spicy. He came
Speaker 1: out of the bush. Yeah, just Homer faded in. I
Speaker 1: think the overall, I mean, I'm sure that tweets will
Speaker 1: shed some light on how they think they did, but
Speaker 1: I think they lost. And the reason I think they
Speaker 1: lost is that they were very clearly intimidated there. They
Speaker 1: looked stupid, they looked pathetic. They didn't get to get
Speaker 1: in any of these altercations, they didn't get to feel
Speaker 1: like victims, but they very clearly piste off d C,
Speaker 1: and d C showed up in fucking force. Fuck the
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter flag came onto the field that something
Speaker 1: at one point and people start chanting black Lives Matter,
Speaker 1: and then lightning increased the sky. The fucking gods were
Speaker 1: angry at the Nazis. It was such a moment, it
Speaker 1: was so perfect. I was like, Okay, I don't know
Speaker 1: if everyone here and that happened, I'd be like, or
Speaker 1: I'm going home now and I'm gonna hide. Oh. The
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter flag was heralded by lightning in thunder.
Speaker 1: I'm going home. What kinda forever? So here's what Jason
Speaker 1: Kessler tweeted, thank you to all of the law enforcement
Speaker 1: officers that protected free speech and public safety today at
Speaker 1: hashtag ut R too. The whole thing has been a
Speaker 1: logistical challenge from how but we proved we could do
Speaker 1: it peacefully despite all the naysayers. Another a couple of
Speaker 1: other posts. One of them is a thing he retweeted
Speaker 1: from an activist named Hannah and Nattinson, who was I
Speaker 1: think one of the white nationalist protesters here to women,
Speaker 1: Yeah a lady. Yeah, people should be talking about how
Speaker 1: white women are really doing their part to uphold this
Speaker 1: non They sure are. They're not. They're not falling down
Speaker 1: in the racism fascism supporting department. Can I just take
Speaker 1: a second here, as a white woman to other white
Speaker 1: women who are listening to this. We're all racist and
Speaker 1: we have to do the fucking work to overcome that
Speaker 1: because it has been bred into us and into our socialization,
Speaker 1: and we are complicent. It's the exact same thing that
Speaker 1: likes at all. Two men, just that you don't get
Speaker 1: to do this, not wo man, bullshit don't give me that,
Speaker 1: so I should say here I was wrong. Hanna Natanson
Speaker 1: is apparently a reporter, apparently with the Washington Post. Well,
Speaker 1: here's what she tweeted. So here I'm going to read
Speaker 1: out what she tweeted. I'm the one responsible. By the way,
Speaker 1: none of you did anything wrong because I gave you
Speaker 1: all bad information because we're drinking. We're we're drinking, and
Speaker 1: we're kind of but here's what it's still relevant. Well,
Speaker 1: and here's your tweet, so we can we can comment
Speaker 1: after we read. I read this tweet encircled by reporters.
Speaker 1: Kessler says he is not a white supremacist, but a
Speaker 1: quote civil rights advocate for white people. He said white
Speaker 1: Americans are unfairly discriminated against, pointing in part to the
Speaker 1: removal of Alex Jones from social media sites. So so
Speaker 1: then why doesn't the a c O. You hire him?
Speaker 1: I want questions, No, no, ask him. It's very straus
Speaker 1: to me that at that as a white, straight, sis
Speaker 1: gender able bodied male, he feels so oppressed, and that
Speaker 1: the thing that he points to towards like the root
Speaker 1: of his oppression is oh Alex Jones personal He was
Speaker 1: not kicked off Twitter, right, Like he was still on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Am I crazy social media? So he was from some
Speaker 1: but not Twitter. It was everybody but Twitter, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he took some of the ship down after everybody yelled,
Speaker 1: and he was sort of kind of without any sort
Speaker 1: of deniability, urging that people harassed the family members of
Speaker 1: children who were murdered during that. So that's all he
Speaker 1: was just he was just harassing the family murdered children.
Speaker 1: Sandy Hook, Oh, well, that's exactly all all that Alex
Speaker 1: Jones was guilty of was urging. Was was was saying
Speaker 1: that the family members of small children who were murdered
Speaker 1: by a mass shooter were part of a false flag
Speaker 1: operation and urging his follower is to harass them. But
Speaker 1: so I think I don't think anyone listening to this
Speaker 1: podcast about terrible people in history is going to be
Speaker 1: on the side of Alex Jones, so we shouldn't belabor
Speaker 1: the point. I do want to talk about this person's
Speaker 1: report if I just find it curious that like that
Speaker 1: is the evidence. It's like what people are repressed with evidence.
Speaker 1: Alex Stones, does she give a follow up tweet? I'm
Speaker 1: looking for that right now. I would like to read
Speaker 1: her Washington Post, Violine past tomorrow about this, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's keep it on. Those mentions be real interesting. I
Speaker 1: heard you say munchies, and then I realized you meant mentioned. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She had some other stuff that was fair ish, like
Speaker 1: where she said, like the United the Right marches of
Speaker 1: all left town. This is earlier in the day. They're
Speaker 1: always supposed to begin at five thirty. Well in DC,
Speaker 1: tony marchers listened to a brief Kessler speech and talk
Speaker 1: to reporters. One man told me the Washington Post is
Speaker 1: Jewish owned and it doesn't speak to Jews before he
Speaker 1: walked away. So she did. She did note that I
Speaker 1: don't know part of this maybe the fact that Twitter
Speaker 1: is a good way to spread links to new stories,
Speaker 1: but not a good way to do journalism, And so
Speaker 1: her quote out of context isn't great. It's really really
Speaker 1: hard to do reporting on the ground and keep track
Speaker 1: of everything and tweet about it at the same time.
Speaker 1: And so I'm sure there's a lot missing. I guess
Speaker 1: I can give or you can kind of give her
Speaker 1: a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be mean to Hannah because I don't
Speaker 1: know this lady and maybe maybe she's a fair mind,
Speaker 1: and maybe what kind of situation was enough? This is
Speaker 1: I did. I did? That was unfair. I want to
Speaker 1: see her piece tomorrow and see what she actually says
Speaker 1: in her report insinuation with drawn. Yeah. But Kessler retweeted that,
Speaker 1: and then later he retweeted another post from UTR hurricoine
Speaker 1: hurricane hashtag white civilization something or other, white civil rights.
Speaker 1: They resemble a hurricane. Uh, it looks like a picture
Speaker 1: of a young lady. Hurricanes are darksome. So this is
Speaker 1: your This is your young lady who seems to be
Speaker 1: supporting Jason Kessler, who was marching with him today. One
Speaker 1: of the women who was marching with him days who said,
Speaker 1: we just destroyed three large pizzas in the motor But
Speaker 1: before I pass out, I want to say this. I
Speaker 1: feel vindicated. I was called every nasty name in the
Speaker 1: book for believing in the hashtag white Civil Rights Rally
Speaker 1: and the DC Police Department in Jason Kessler and peaceful
Speaker 1: free speech. Good night, Okay. I want to say something
Speaker 1: on that point. Um. The idea that if you are
Speaker 1: opposed by people, then you're doing the right thing is
Speaker 1: really pervasive in in particular in conservative evangelical circles. And
Speaker 1: I don't can speak for the al right, um, but
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot of overlap where this
Speaker 1: there's this idea of well, like Jesus was killed in
Speaker 1: the world, and so in the world you have trouble.
Speaker 1: So if you are following Jesus correctly, you will be
Speaker 1: opposed and you will meet a lot of conflict. And
Speaker 1: so that kind of mentality um reinforces the sense of
Speaker 1: moral rightness for these people. It's sort of like, how
Speaker 1: I firmly believe that we should reply these cows with
Speaker 1: horses and vice versa, and that that's that that's something
Speaker 1: I believe religiously. And the fact that everyone disagrees with me,
Speaker 1: I take is proof that my ideas are righteous and right,
Speaker 1: but may just be proof that I'm a crazy person.
Speaker 1: Secret it's not a non secretor it's a horse and
Speaker 1: it should be what we make hamburgers out of. Can
Speaker 1: I ask a question, absolutely, what do you guys feel?
Speaker 1: It's like, so in case people are listening and they're like,
Speaker 1: what's the makeup of the room. You have two black men,
Speaker 1: one black woman, a white woman, and a white man.
Speaker 1: What do you guys feel that these are these are
Speaker 1: your fellow white people, Like, how does that feel for
Speaker 1: you guys? Like knowing that, like and they are doing
Speaker 1: this because they are trying to assert like their race
Speaker 1: there their superiority, kind of a kind of like on
Speaker 1: your behalf. What does that experience like for you as
Speaker 1: white people? I mean, Hannah, if you want to answer first,
Speaker 1: you're welcome to. I have a think. Okay, So that's
Speaker 1: an interesting question, and I appreciate you asking, very curious. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So on one hand, it's like, you don't represent me,
Speaker 1: shut up, And there were science that we saw that
Speaker 1: said that too, right, um. And on the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's I do not believe that guilt is a useful emotion.
Speaker 1: I have been on the receiving end of a lot
Speaker 1: of apologies from people who treated me shittily when I
Speaker 1: got divorced or when I was like in the process
Speaker 1: of leaving the cult I grew up in, who have
Speaker 1: now come around and they're like, I'm so sorry I
Speaker 1: was horrible to you. And my perspective on that is
Speaker 1: like that doesn't mean no good. Do better. And so
Speaker 1: for me as a white person, if I feel guilty,
Speaker 1: I need to relate that experience to how guilt has
Speaker 1: felt when I have received it from people who are
Speaker 1: apologetic and feel guilty. And my job is not to
Speaker 1: sit and feel guilty, it's to do better. So I
Speaker 1: am going to work on educating myself. It is an ongoing,
Speaker 1: life long task. Every society and every community I've ever
Speaker 1: been a part of was created in some form or
Speaker 1: another on racist beliefs. Homeschooling, Christian evangelicalism, white churches, the college.
Speaker 1: I went to all these places where I had very
Speaker 1: very few people of color on purpose, and so I
Speaker 1: feel like the burden is on me to correct that.
Speaker 1: And I've got a long journey ahead of me. But
Speaker 1: showing up for these kinds of things is part of
Speaker 1: that journey. And I don't want brownie points because I'm
Speaker 1: just now doing the bare minimum that I should have
Speaker 1: been doing all along. But it's a long process. So
Speaker 1: but the whole thing is like, these guys don't represent me,
Speaker 1: and I'm here to tell them that and uh to
Speaker 1: do my moral duty. And I mean, I'm just like so,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a I'm a big white I very tall,
Speaker 1: very broad, and I'm very white, and I have for
Speaker 1: a long time. One of my hobbies was just lying
Speaker 1: to my friends about things, because when I talk about
Speaker 1: stuff in a in an authoritative manner, people believe me
Speaker 1: because I'm a big white guy. And that's just the
Speaker 1: way our society is set up that if as a
Speaker 1: big white guy, you sit and you start telling facts
Speaker 1: or whatever, people will listen to you even if it lies,
Speaker 1: which is why most of our I don't know, we
Speaker 1: can get into the political into this at some other point,
Speaker 1: but I have the idea that white people would need
Speaker 1: a civil rights rally as a white dude is inconceivable
Speaker 1: to me because I have had a lot of difficulties
Speaker 1: in my life, and I know a lot of other
Speaker 1: white men who have had a lot of difficulties in life,
Speaker 1: very tough lifes, very painful life. None of it has
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that we're white guys, um.
Speaker 1: And the fact that these people are saying that that's
Speaker 1: a problem that we have is very frustrating to me.
Speaker 1: And it's more frustrating than you talk to men men's
Speaker 1: rights activists, and I don't know with those people either,
Speaker 1: but there are injustices for men based on women, like
Speaker 1: the fact that men who have children if they go
Speaker 1: to court with their female child bearing partner or whatever
Speaker 1: term you choose to use, have more difficulty when in
Speaker 1: custoy or whatever. There are legitimate legal issues there that
Speaker 1: can be addressed or whatever. But some of the points
Speaker 1: there's a reason that that system privileges the child bearing partners.
Speaker 1: But yes, but there's a debate to be had there.
Speaker 1: There there's no rational debate by which you can believe
Speaker 1: white people, in particularly white men, are disadvantaged in the
Speaker 1: United States of America because look at this country, like
Speaker 1: walk outside to go on, go on a walk, Like
Speaker 1: it's very clear in my experience as a human when
Speaker 1: the white people are like, yeah, but this isn't a problem.
Speaker 1: There are more important things to focus on. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to ignore you because you're You've always been
Speaker 1: wrong in my experience, because unless you have suffered loss
Speaker 1: of privilege, you don't have any idea what the other
Speaker 1: side is experiencing at all. Well, and I'm a I'm
Speaker 1: a child of Hollywood, like most of the planet are
Speaker 1: you startlet no, I'm like, I'm a no. I was
Speaker 1: a kid who was raised by movies, movies and television.
Speaker 1: Like I'm a child who was raised by films, and
Speaker 1: one thing American cinema has done is a great job
Speaker 1: of convincing me that the underdogs are usually the people
Speaker 1: that you should root for, and the underdogs in this
Speaker 1: society where and are not white guys, like that's for sure,
Speaker 1: not who is being fucked over in this society. That
Speaker 1: goes back to my point with like, who are the
Speaker 1: cops behaving for? You protect? Who do you protect? Who
Speaker 1: do you serve? They're protecting the white supremacists and they're
Speaker 1: not protecting the people who are against white supremacy, So
Speaker 1: the system is is stacked, It's clear well, and that
Speaker 1: that brings us back to my initial question, which is
Speaker 1: not is it right or wrong to punch Nazis, but
Speaker 1: is it does it bring us closer to our goal
Speaker 1: of a society where Nazis have no political power, which
Speaker 1: is I think most people listening can agree Nazis shouldn't
Speaker 1: have any political power, White supremacists should not have any
Speaker 1: kind of political power. The k occasion on a political power.
Speaker 1: Does violence to them bring us closer to that goal
Speaker 1: than peaceful resistance at this point in the debate, And
Speaker 1: that is the question I want to go around as
Speaker 1: a roundtable and get people's thoughts on. So why don't
Speaker 1: we start with you, Bridget the person holding the mic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm holding the mic. I'm yeah. I my name is Bridget.
Speaker 1: I I don't know. I mean it's hard for me.
Speaker 1: You guys saw me out there. I get emotional, and
Speaker 1: I think that for me, it's I may intellectually know
Speaker 1: that punching Nazis and like screaming in their face is
Speaker 1: not getting us closer to being free, but there's something
Speaker 1: cathartic about it, and my like primate brain, that's a
Speaker 1: part of my brain that's just like, yes, hit them,
Speaker 1: punch them, Like, I'm not concerned about whether or not
Speaker 1: it gets us closer to our goal. You know. I'm
Speaker 1: an organizer, so I think about things in terms of
Speaker 1: what is our you know, our shared goal. But there
Speaker 1: is something, there's something, a visceral that happens that almost
Speaker 1: makes me turn that part of my logical brain off
Speaker 1: and I'm just like I want him get hit, and
Speaker 1: it's like I become a I become like man. It's
Speaker 1: like when we were out there, I mean, like you
Speaker 1: and I got in that argument with a guy, and
Speaker 1: because we show these people the people, y'all listening right now,
Speaker 1: and we actually have the audio of like destroying him
Speaker 1: and want to video. We were we were at this
Speaker 1: protest and we were watching these people with the Kaka
Speaker 1: Stan flag it surrounded And while that was happening, there
Speaker 1: was an elderly guy who was clearly not from the
Speaker 1: United States and did not speak English as a first language,
Speaker 1: and was like, it's like, to be clear, I'm familiar
Speaker 1: with him. He's unwell. He's fine, he's a regular regulator
Speaker 1: and he's mentally unwell. And his his signs were all
Speaker 1: about circumcision. And there was a young white guy in
Speaker 1: a three piece suit and a dude filming him interviewing
Speaker 1: this guy about his sign he got on the urban
Speaker 1: fucking copy of a suit I've seen Richard Spencer in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he got it on the discount racket men's warehouse and
Speaker 1: probably Manifort wishes he had it. Well, if there's no
Speaker 1: ostrich in that fucking So this this this young dude
Speaker 1: was like talking to this guy who was a little
Speaker 1: bit off about his circumcision based sign and around me
Speaker 1: there was a focused around racial justice and it seemed
Speaker 1: like it was very clearly this guy and his friend
Speaker 1: came out to the protest and tried to film the
Speaker 1: few crazy signs they could find so that they could
Speaker 1: make fun of the whole protest by pointing out like
Speaker 1: and they supplicedly said that suplicitly said we're going to
Speaker 1: have a little fun. Yeah, they said we're here to
Speaker 1: have a little fun. Who Yeah, he had a very
Speaker 1: smoot sign. Video evidence on Twitter. I recorded it. It's there.
Speaker 1: It's frustrating, We'll link it. So he both Bridget and
Speaker 1: I wound up confronting this guy at varying points because
Speaker 1: he just was clearly up to no good, and she
Speaker 1: got very heated, which was understandable in the moment. So
Speaker 1: that's I think, what was the lead into what you Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I got I got heated, And I think for me,
Speaker 1: you know, I was born in d C. This is
Speaker 1: I've lived in DC for most of my adult life.
Speaker 1: People come here for protests and I think it's, you know,
Speaker 1: a theme park for their cosplay around whatever. This is
Speaker 1: my home. I live here, I'm gonna have a kid
Speaker 1: here like this is where I live. Yeah, for me,
Speaker 1: the fact that that guy was targeting somebody that is
Speaker 1: obviously marginalized, obviously unwell, there are a million people to
Speaker 1: talk to who were out and about it is not
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a coincidence that he shows an
Speaker 1: older guy who didn't really speak English, a guy who
Speaker 1: was clearly like he chose a vulnerable DC resident hand.
Speaker 1: This guy said he was from Maryland, so he came
Speaker 1: into town quote to have a little fun, but not.
Speaker 1: It wasn't with a shirtless black Lives Matter big guy.
Speaker 1: It wasn't with someone who would have gotten in his face.
Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting that when you when Matt,
Speaker 1: when you like talk to him, that's what people call me, Robert.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna explain that anymore. Continue, do you guys
Speaker 1: do the beeps? We don't. Okay, that's a weird East Coast. Okay,
Speaker 1: we can really include all this, but I will make
Speaker 1: fun of y'all. Okay, fine, bee is a thing. I'm sorry. No,
Speaker 1: But but Robert, when you when you got in his
Speaker 1: face and you challenged him, I found it really interesting
Speaker 1: that when he was talking to like, let's be real,
Speaker 1: that guy. I know that guy. I feel comfortable saying
Speaker 1: this because I've seen that guy at every DC protesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the older guy. I feel comfortable saying this. I've seen
Speaker 1: him four years. He is Can I just say something like,
Speaker 1: I haven't lived in d C in about three years,
Speaker 1: and I've seen that guy like he's a fixture, he's around,
Speaker 1: he's fine, but he is clearly meant he's like a vulnerable,
Speaker 1: vulnerable person like he is under housed, and he is
Speaker 1: of all the people to like talk to, Like, no
Speaker 1: good journalist would interview that guy. Journalists three times during
Speaker 1: this protest. Good they should be not pletely sure why me,
Speaker 1: but okay, but they talked to you and you're wearing
Speaker 1: the shirt you're to look you have a look that
Speaker 1: like you look like a veteran and you're wearing a
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter shirt. So they can't even talk to
Speaker 1: me three separate times. And none of that looked at
Speaker 1: all like what was happening with this fu? No, that
Speaker 1: was that was bullying, Like what what we were with
Speaker 1: the saying was who is someone who is vulnerable? Who
Speaker 1: is someone that will not have the ability to best
Speaker 1: me that I can make look coolish? And I walked
Speaker 1: to journalists all the time and they're always so respectful,
Speaker 1: so thoughtful, so informed, so like open to where I'm
Speaker 1: coming from and this guy was playing the I'm going
Speaker 1: to get your game, and exactly, as a journalist who
Speaker 1: has covered a lot of civil unrest in his career,
Speaker 1: you don't talk to the cooks because they don't they're
Speaker 1: not representative, they don't teach you anything. So I mean
Speaker 1: this feeds into the point there's real ship going on here,
Speaker 1: and some motherfucker from his fucking Maryland college showing up
Speaker 1: in a goddamn suit to make a nutty old guy
Speaker 1: who is harmless look like a spokesperson for this rally
Speaker 1: against people who are out and proud members of the
Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan is infuriating. It was when we were
Speaker 1: so I completely agree. I think that why I got
Speaker 1: so upset was that it was someone that was marginalized
Speaker 1: and vulnerable, and that like he was clearly, of all
Speaker 1: the people to talk to, he didn't talk to any
Speaker 1: of the like black dudes, Latino dudes without shirts screaming.
Speaker 1: He could way too scared to anyone who was not
Speaker 1: as white as him. Exactly as soon as I got
Speaker 1: in his face with camera, like you could watch his
Speaker 1: body language, he like, he like would start stuttering, and
Speaker 1: his friend with the camera put his camera down as
Speaker 1: soon as we started talking, which is exactly how you
Speaker 1: know that he's a sucking charlatan. And so I guess
Speaker 1: for me, you know, it's hard because this is my community,
Speaker 1: this is my home, Like this is not a gay
Speaker 1: aims is not a thing for fun, Like this is
Speaker 1: where I live. The guy that he was, you know, targeting,
Speaker 1: that's sort of like, like I hate to say, he's
Speaker 1: like Mike Kok like He's like like, yes, he he's
Speaker 1: in my community. And I agree with you that in
Speaker 1: terms of is it okay with punch Nazis, it's probably
Speaker 1: more effective in terms of a more effective theory of
Speaker 1: change around how we deal with Nazis to reason with them,
Speaker 1: not punch them. But in that moment, I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, where is the person that's just like
Speaker 1: I'm ending this with a fucking fist, Like I didn't
Speaker 1: want to hit him. Yeah I didn't. I didn't. Here's
Speaker 1: the other thing that was really interesting about this conversation.
Speaker 1: He did. He was just like, you know how some
Speaker 1: people are just begging for a punch to the face.
Speaker 1: There's a German word for that, what is it? But
Speaker 1: he was he was hella backs something like we've all
Speaker 1: been homie was homie was hella b The exact translation
Speaker 1: of the German word is a face in need of
Speaker 1: a fist. Here's the other thing that's really interesting for
Speaker 1: this whole experience is when we when Matt started shaming
Speaker 1: him for his tactics as like this is not professional,
Speaker 1: no journalists would do this those kinds of things. He
Speaker 1: would duck his shoulders and cross his hands over his
Speaker 1: crotch and looked down, and he he assumed the physical
Speaker 1: posture of shame. And so I started in the Peace
Speaker 1: Corps in Kyrgyzstan, and Um, the Peace Corp volunteers I
Speaker 1: know would colloquially call this an AJ shame circle, where
Speaker 1: like the older women who would be referred to as
Speaker 1: a JS would um. If a student had been acting
Speaker 1: out for a long long time at school and was
Speaker 1: like just zilient against correction, they would bring him into
Speaker 1: the school, They bring his parents in with him, and
Speaker 1: then all the teachers would just like shame him in
Speaker 1: front of his family to make him realize this constant
Speaker 1: like the severity of his behavior and how it was
Speaker 1: affecting the community, and how it was This is this
Speaker 1: is reflecting on your parents. This is reflecting on your school,
Speaker 1: this is reflecting on your classmates. This behavior does not
Speaker 1: belong here. And because of that, like ingrained tactic as
Speaker 1: a woman there, if I had a man harassing me,
Speaker 1: I could go to him and say, Hey, where's your shame?
Speaker 1: Why are you talking to me like that? Do you
Speaker 1: want me to tell your mother? I'm a teacher, I'm
Speaker 1: respected in this community, and I'm working for free and
Speaker 1: you're talking to me like that, and he would immediately
Speaker 1: stand down. I don't have that kind of power in America.
Speaker 1: Coming back to these states, I feel less safe because
Speaker 1: I have no social power to pull shame on someone
Speaker 1: who is acting out like that. And so I think
Speaker 1: with the nutzis in this situation, we need to find
Speaker 1: that shame trigger. I think that shame is more powerful
Speaker 1: then punching them. I think we need to find the
Speaker 1: moment where they like their line is, whatever that far
Speaker 1: out moral line is, and we need to call them
Speaker 1: on the spot and make them feel ashamed of themselves.
Speaker 1: I think you did that when you told him no
Speaker 1: journalist would do this. I think that he felt shame.
Speaker 1: I am a white male journalist, another clearly intelligent white
Speaker 1: male journalist is telling me, Homie, I'm ashamed of you
Speaker 1: right now. I think that what you said to him
Speaker 1: cut him deeper than anything that I, as a black woman,
Speaker 1: could ever that something about you, the way that you
Speaker 1: appealed to him, I feel like, cut him so deep
Speaker 1: because he abuse you as a person whose opinions matter,
Speaker 1: and so so Mike. So I guess I'm gonna roll
Speaker 1: off of what both of you said because I agree
Speaker 1: with both of you, and I guess my thesis on
Speaker 1: should we punched Nazis is I, in my position, as
Speaker 1: someone who sees Nazis as an existential fucking threat and
Speaker 1: everyone who supports him as an existential threat to me
Speaker 1: and mine, I will always punch Nazis. I think they
Speaker 1: must be destroyed. I think that perhaps getting rid of
Speaker 1: them in a way that doesn't involve me punching, and
Speaker 1: then later, if things go real bad, doing further than
Speaker 1: punching Nazis would be better for the world. I think
Speaker 1: that a war with Nazis is going to results in
Speaker 1: a lot of people getting hurt, and I don't want
Speaker 1: people to get hurt. But I have no power to
Speaker 1: make that happen because they don't see me as a person,
Speaker 1: I can talk at them all day and nothing I
Speaker 1: do will change anything they believe. It won't make them
Speaker 1: be any less dangerous to me. So if I'm in
Speaker 1: a situation and Ryan face to face with a Nazi,
Speaker 1: I cannot guarantee that he will walk away with an
Speaker 1: intact face. But of what we don't But if we
Speaker 1: don't want to punch Nazis, if as a society we
Speaker 1: want the Nazis to not get punched, we want them
Speaker 1: to disappear, it's not on black people. White people need
Speaker 1: to shame Nazis. And the thing is, it's starting, it's
Speaker 1: kind of starting. I think they're starting. Part of the
Speaker 1: reason there weren't a thousand Nazis here is that for
Speaker 1: the last year, anytime one of these dumb fuckers you know,
Speaker 1: stands up and it starts yelling racial slurs at someone,
Speaker 1: We've all got real good cameras in our pockets, and
Speaker 1: people are like, hey, I'm gonna videotape this guy screaming
Speaker 1: at someone because they're wearing a Porto Rico shirt and
Speaker 1: their life gets dismantled. So keep doing that, ruined Like
Speaker 1: it's like when one of your siblings act out and
Speaker 1: everybody kind of looks at you at the party and
Speaker 1: they're like, like, go get your kids, get your get
Speaker 1: your own white people, deal with your own. And that's
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. Those are all
Speaker 1: really good points. And I think that that's as the
Speaker 1: whitest man who's ever lived as a very white man,
Speaker 1: we it is. It is incumbent upawn. One of the
Speaker 1: reasons might hear of this protest is that British guy
Speaker 1: who just tried to leap over the cops to punch
Speaker 1: a Nazi because he because there's nothing whiter than the British.
Speaker 1: Like they're they're clear, they are a window. Um. It is.
Speaker 1: It is incumbent upon us to stand up and like
Speaker 1: confront these people because it shouldn't get to punching. They
Speaker 1: should be And that's part of the problem. These people
Speaker 1: existed everyone. None of these people were not Nazis before
Speaker 1: Donald Trump won the election, but the election made them
Speaker 1: think that they could get away with being open about
Speaker 1: what they were, and nobody, nobody in their communities called
Speaker 1: them on it. No one in their families has pulled
Speaker 1: them aside and said, honey, we're gonna take you to
Speaker 1: the hospital because this is a fucking problem. We're cutting
Speaker 1: off your trust fund because you're bringing a shame upon
Speaker 1: which is how Richard Spencer does this ship. But like
Speaker 1: it's make racist to freight again is a great slogan,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean beating up racists. I mean that
Speaker 1: might be what it gets to if ship descends enough,
Speaker 1: but it starts with just making them scared to be racist.
Speaker 1: You can't cure them, it is not. It's no one's job.
Speaker 1: No matter how much white you are, it is no
Speaker 1: one's job to cure racists. You can't. You can't cure
Speaker 1: anyone of anything. But is your job to make them
Speaker 1: feel bad about it, drive them underground. And I do
Speaker 1: think we have not gotten to Lauren yet. So I
Speaker 1: do want to ask Luran sile question, is it better
Speaker 1: to hit Nazis or to shame? Is it more effective
Speaker 1: as a tactic to hit Nazis er to shame them? Okay, well, Ben,
Speaker 1: this is my first oh watching from the test. Uh,
Speaker 1: I went through As I said, I went through a
Speaker 1: variety of emotions. So when I first started at the
Speaker 1: train station, by the time we got to the site,
Speaker 1: I wanted to probably harm every last one of them.
Speaker 1: But as I sat there and I watched and and
Speaker 1: and and actually started to observe what was going on
Speaker 1: from the complete full circle, I came to a realization
Speaker 1: by the end of it, that is the payback or
Speaker 1: whatever I was saying, it's really not my fight. It's
Speaker 1: my fight when I'm confronted with with them, you know.
Speaker 1: Then it's my fight. When it's me and nazieing, you know,
Speaker 1: in an allele, you know, in a in a store,
Speaker 1: you know, anywhere else, anywhere on the streets, in a uniform,
Speaker 1: you know, it's my fight. Name then I will punch
Speaker 1: a knots, you know. But as far as a worldwide
Speaker 1: uh maybe not cure, but um remedy for now is
Speaker 1: that you have to white people have made other white
Speaker 1: people feel guilty about it, and that's the only way
Speaker 1: we can't there's nothing we can do. We can support
Speaker 1: and give you examples of how he feels, so you
Speaker 1: can go fullard with how we feel about it. But
Speaker 1: it's really I think that was the biggest take away
Speaker 1: I'm taken from this to day. I was seeing everybody
Speaker 1: else kind of take the staying and say, well we
Speaker 1: got this, you don't say, And I was able to
Speaker 1: say a bay right now is to survive. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: just just as it's gonna take men starving the roots
Speaker 1: of the patriarchy to destroy it, because it grows from us,
Speaker 1: you know. It's the thing that like, thank you, queer
Speaker 1: I for all the work that you've done for that
Speaker 1: this year. There's a phrase that I may have heard it.
Speaker 1: I don't know if maybe it's something that I popped
Speaker 1: into my head, or maybe it's something something said. It's
Speaker 1: probably something someone said was, um, it's when I'm talking
Speaker 1: to other men about this about male bullshit, and when
Speaker 1: I'm talking to white people about white people bullshit. The
Speaker 1: thing that I try to say because you know, like
Speaker 1: people always want to respond with the And I heard
Speaker 1: it at the protests, like because I we said something
Speaker 1: about cops never being on our side, and this one
Speaker 1: was like, well, I'm a cop. I'm here. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't give a ship the cops on on my side.
Speaker 1: And at some point she even said not all white people.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not here to deal with you.
Speaker 1: But but the thing that I want to say to
Speaker 1: those people is listen, I'm aware that, like the patriarchy
Speaker 1: isn't my fault or your fault or your fault. I
Speaker 1: didn't make the patriarchy, was born into it. And I
Speaker 1: am aware that white supremacy isn't your fault or your fault.
Speaker 1: You didn't make white supremacy. You were born into it.
Speaker 1: But it's your fucking responsibility, and it's my fucking responsibility.
Speaker 1: The patriarchy won't disappear without men being like, hey, we're
Speaker 1: in a We're in our fucking, you know, locker room,
Speaker 1: and some guy talks about starts talking about the ship
Speaker 1: that people call locker room talking. We're like, shut the
Speaker 1: funk up, Like they won't go away until men are like,
Speaker 1: you don't get to be among us unless you stop
Speaker 1: this ship. And it's the same thing with white people.
Speaker 1: That's a really good analysis. Racism gets killed by white supremacy,
Speaker 1: will die when white people stop feeding it. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the point we want to end on, because
Speaker 1: I can't think of a better line to end it on,
Speaker 1: and I think everyone for joining, and I will now
Speaker 1: selfishly note that our website is behind the Bastards dot
Speaker 1: com and our Instagram and Twitter is at Bastards Pod.
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything else to in this on
Speaker 1: so I will just say, buy a bag of Dorito's
Speaker 1: and watch Downfall, the movie where Hitler dies in a bunker.
Speaker 1: Just do that, and also read some books. Whatever, Go
Speaker 1: and educate yourself by material by black authors. Go read
Speaker 1: so you want to talk about race, go read read
Speaker 1: The Invention of the White Race. It's a long, dense read,
Speaker 1: but give it, give it away, and like read some
Speaker 1: bell hooks and like yeah, like like also like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna put this is bridget I'm just gonna put a
Speaker 1: little plug in, like, don't put that ship on black women, Like,
Speaker 1: go on the internet, read books, you know, don't expect
Speaker 1: like white people have to dismantle this ship and figure
Speaker 1: this out, talk to your cousins whatever, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1: It isn't our job. And like, don't put ship on
Speaker 1: people of color who already are just like trying to
Speaker 1: fucking survived, as you said, or at the very minimum,
Speaker 1: pay them, yes, pay them. What's your snapping because Hannah
Speaker 1: just said something very real. Well, I'm actually fine somebody
Speaker 1: who like PayPal, somebody who needs the fucking money, because
Speaker 1: I guarantee you there is a woman, probably a woman
Speaker 1: of color out there who is teaching learning like shepherding
Speaker 1: people into the you know, the righteous, the righteous path,
Speaker 1: and she probably use a little bit of a papal blessing.
Speaker 1: And I'll just say, if you, if you're a white woman,
Speaker 1: you're curious about this coming from a evangelical conservative perspective
Speaker 1: of unlearning your internalized racism, I'd like to recommend the
Speaker 1: work of Carris Adele, who is a student at the
Speaker 1: UVA right now, and she's on Twitter under that name,
Speaker 1: and she tweets a lot about the stuff that she's
Speaker 1: read and the experiences that she's gone through and educating
Speaker 1: herself on this, and it's been really quality stuff. So
Speaker 1: read up, do some reading, get out in the streets
Speaker 1: when you can do some activism, uh, support the things
Speaker 1: that you can support, and and stay at a reasonable
Speaker 1: lay level of anger to be productive. And when you're
Speaker 1: too tired for all of that, and when it's just
Speaker 1: time to take a break, buy a beeg, cool ranch
Speaker 1: to Rito's and just just have a nice, a nice
Speaker 1: little chill session. And this has been behind the bastards
Speaker 1: and I've been Robert Evans and I love a out
Speaker 1: of you. H m hm