WEBVTT - Does Punching Nazis Work? A Conversation From Unite The Right 2.0 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:09.200 Hm. I'm Robert Evans, and this is again Behind the Bastards, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:10.920 the show where we tell you everything you don't know 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.120 about the very worst people in all of history. Now. Normally, 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.119 at least, that's what the show is about, but this 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.079 week we're talking about, you know, the Nazis, the modern Nazis, 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.040 the Nazis who are marching in the streets of America 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:24.319 right now, and who, in fact, we're marching in the 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.240 streets of Washington, d C. Just a few minutes before 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.320 this podcast was recorded. Uh. In part one of this episode, 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.120 we dissected the new Nazi movement and how it's changed 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:35.680 since Charlottesville. Uh. And in this episode, we're gonna be 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.440 talking about what we saw at the Unite the Right 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.560 two point o rally and and more to the point, 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.280 we're going to be trying to answer the question is 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.839 it a good idea to punch Nazis now? First, I 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.000 should say nobody that we're gonna be talking with today 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.519 punch Nazi. Today's rally it went pretty much as well 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:54.200 as these sort of things can go, but it's it's 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.160 still a question. I think it is worth debating. If 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.400 you spend any amount of time online and anti fascist 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.240 activists are goals. You will come across this Hitler quote, 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.800 probably next to a picture of Richard Spencer getting punched 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.320 in the face. The quote, as it is usually displayed, reads, 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.360 only one thing could have stopped our movement if our 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.440 adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.840 smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.640 And it's an Adolf Hitler quote. And Hitler did say 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.120 those words, but he did not say exactly those quotes 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.920 in that order. Um, as is usually the case with 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.600 online quotes attributed to any sort of famous person, it's 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:34.959 a little bit wrong. So I'm gonna read the actual 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.520 Hitler quote, which was given during a speech in ninety three. 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.440 Only one danger could have jeopardized this development, if our 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.800 adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:48.600 our ideas and not offered any resistance. Or alternatively, if 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:50.880 they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.760 brutality the nucleus of our new movement. So you see 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.600 the difference there and the quote that's usually spread around online. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:58.880 It says Hitler was basically saying the only thing that 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.200 could have stopped us was if people had beat us 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.680 up in the streets during our rise to power. The 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.920 actual quote is Hitler was saying two things. We could 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:09.560 have been stopped if we'd have been beaten up in 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.679 the streets, or if people had very clearly and very 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.120 cogently elucidated what we were about, what we wanted, and 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.040 made it clear to everyone what our goals were and 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.480 what our plans were. That could have stopped us, too, 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.920 especially if the people doing it had been nonviolent. So 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.960 Hitler's opinion on the matter is a little bit more 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.800 multifaceted than is usually presented, And so the question of 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.320 whether or not it's a good idea to punch Nazis 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:39.120 is a little bit more complicated than anti Nazi activists 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.359 like to feel. And I say this as someone who 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:43.800 has just done some anti Nazi activism, So I'm not 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.400 uh inherently against the idea of hitting these people either, 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.560 It's it's a complicated issue. I think there's a couple 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.080 of things we need to keep in mind before we 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.200 get into our discussion. One of them is that in 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.680 the nineteen twenties and thirties and German during the rise 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.520 of the Nazi Party. There were constant riots and running 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.920 street bad all across Weimar, Germany. And in the mid 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.280 nineteen twenties when this was all going on, Berlin was 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.720 known as the reddest city in Europe. As we talked 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.040 about on our Non Nazi Bastards episode, Berlin was if 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.040 you were gay, if you were trans, if you were progressive, 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.360 maybe the best city in the world to live in 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.440 um and it was very much not a friendly place 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.080 for Nazis. The rally we were just at had fifty 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.679 or so Nazi activists or less in several thousand anti 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:30.360 Nazi activists, and it wouldn't have been very different in 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.560 Berlin when the Nazis first arrived. Uh Now, the guy 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.920 that Hitler put in charts of Berlin when the Nazis 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.360 first started trying to make inroads into the reddest city 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.080 in Europe was Joseph Gebbel's Uh. Gebbels put in charge 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.760 of the Berlin's Nazi branch, and his whole strategy when 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.760 he gained that position was to send his very few 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:54.640 Berlin Nazis directly into leftist control chunk chunks of the city. Now, 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:59.760 Gebbels Nazis would fight with anti fascist activists, with communist activists, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.280 withist activists, and there would be street battles, and the 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.920 Nazis lost a lot of these street battles. They lost 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.240 a lot of people, some of them were killed. But 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:13.480 the violence that this incurred helped inspire UH conservatives within 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.080 the German government to be afraid of the anti Nazi activists. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.320 So it's not it's not clear that fighting Nazis in 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.440 Berlin helped stop them. Um political moderates were alienated by 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.400 the violence, and since they were closer to the fire 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.599 right Nazis than the far left anti fascists, well, the 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.480 conservatives wound up making cause with Hitler. And that's more 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.440 or less what happened. That was the Nazis planned from 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.640 the beginning and it worked out. So the question of 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.080 what's to be done about these Nazis is complicated. Can 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.599 violence make racists a freight again or does it only 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.200 help them? In the lead up to the first Charlottesville rally, 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.479 the fascists went in looking for conflict. In today's rally, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.000 it was a different matter. And today I'm gonna be 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.160 talking with a round table of people that I attended 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.920 this protest with UH and we're going to try to 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.479 get to the bottom of whether or not it's a 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.240 good idea to hit Nazis, and we'll also be talking 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.800 about what we saw and how we feel about the day. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.440 So that's my thing. There's a little bit of time 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.200 dilation between what the users or listeners listening are going 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.080 to hear and what has happened in the conversation. So 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.800 from 'all's perspective, I just finished reading a speech about 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.720 the whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis. 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.760 And from our perspective, we've been drinking for ninety minutes 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.760 or more after getting done yelling at Nazis all day, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.920 So the listeners should be aware that nobody is sober 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.320 in this situation. And then now we're going to talk 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:33.880 about whether or not it's a good idea to hit 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.760 Nazis and also what happened at this Nazi protest in 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.880 d C. So let's let's go around the room and 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:46.520 introduce our talkers about their Nazi yelling at experiences. That 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.840 was good, That was a good line. I feel good 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.880 about that. Well. One of the things that we saw 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:56.960 early on. My name is Hannah at ginger Um. I 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.240 was on the last episode over and my pod has 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.640 his Kitchen Table cult. I host that with Kiaran dark Water. 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.640 Um So. One of the things that happened early on 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.040 this morning was at the Foggy Bottom metro station, right 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.080 after the Nazis got off the train. They were about 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.919 thirty or some of them, maybe less. There was this 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:23.919 really fantastically angry old white guy with a British accent. 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.080 He was like he was like an aging punk or something, 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.760 and he was calling them you wankers, over and over 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.640 and he left over the cops to try to, like 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.320 I don't know, express his rage. And he had a 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.040 bike and then he fell into them. He fell into 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:49.080 the bike and they were shoving him and the cops 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.240 hit him and he got kicked. He got kicked. I 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.239 tried to get on video and I missed it. But 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.400 whoever you are, you're our hero of the day, and 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.720 this podcast is dedicated to you. Ran the British guy 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.760 who who did one of the best leaps over a 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:05.880 line of cops I've ever seen to try to punch 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.000 a Nazi in the face. Regardless of what we land 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.040 on visa v hitting Nazis is a good idea. You're 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:13.600 a hero. And I want that to be clear to 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.040 everybody that I'm I think that man is a hero. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:17.920 Should I ever run into you again, I'm not sure 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.040 if I would recognize you because things were pretty nuts. 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:21.720 But if I should ever run into you again, I 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.200 will buy you a beer, perhaps several beers. Please give 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.080 us a shout out. We'd like to buy you a beer. 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.920 All right, Nick yourself, I am Nick Wood. I am 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.800 a former marine. I'm currently an apprentice farmer and also 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.600 science fiction writer. And I'm kind of on team punch 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.480 Nazis until they can't see. My name is Lauren Mario. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:49.960 That's my first protest ever, uh in life? So I'm 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.120 overwere with different feelings and emotions right now or what 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.400 I saw and how I failed, But punching Nazi Nazis 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.080 is definitely something I did not I felt at one point, 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.400 but then it gradually went away, as at the road 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.200 taste moment. What are you feeling right now? Oh man, 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:14.720 I don't know. Uh, I can't believe it. People are 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.800 still like doing things that my grandmother told me about. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.560 You know, I'm steal fighting the fight and my grandmother 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:26.040 and grandfather was fighting many years ago. I felt, I 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.880 feel like, we settled this twice twice? How many fucking 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.320 times do we have to keep kicking the ship out 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:38.400 of the fucking Nazis? Um? But well, kind of the 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.080 way I feel, you know, you're talking about how the 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:46.360 hitler was saying that either people being very like intellectual 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.360 about it and very cojing like understanding that these guys 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.280 are evil fuckers and then just like not fighting them, 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.199 or them getting the absolute ever loving ship kicked out 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.439 of them. Like I'm kind of on team kicks the 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.000 ship out of them Nazis, because you know, they want 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.680 to eradicate me and everyone that looks like me from existence. 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:05.839 But the thing is, I think that the only way 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.800 for that to be effective is for it would have 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.080 It's more effective when like the town kicks the ship 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.240 out of the Nazis and not a team of anti 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.520 fascist kicks the shadow of the Nazis. Because when it's 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:23.760 like Antifa fighting twenty five Nazis or whatever is going 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.160 on or what you know, there's obviously the odds change. 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.600 But like when it's a small group of Antifa fighting 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.600 the Nazis, then you can you can be like, well, 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.000 there's good or bad people on both sides, or people 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.520 can be like, well, I'm violence is never the answer. 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:43.280 But when the entire town of you know, Washington, d C. 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.000 Gets up and like kicks the ship out of all 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.360 of the Nazis, what that says is, don't come to Washington, 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.280 d C. If you're a fucking Nazi. And I think 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.400 that's true. One of the things that unsettles me a 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.439 little bit about demonstrations like this, and I think is 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:02.640 a legitimate risk to avoid it is that, um, the 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.959 police are there. And I'm sure I know that because 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.760 one of the police officers who was photographed d DO 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:13.160 today has nazi Ish tattoos and has been photographed cosplaying 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.200 as a Nazi. Um, So I'm sure some of these 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.240 guys are sympathetic a Nazis, but most of them aren't. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.000 There were a lot of black officers, There are a 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.079 lot of Latino officers. There were a lot of Filipino 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.160 and Asian officers. I'm sure they're not Nazis, because why 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.479 would they be. There's nothing in that ideology for them. 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.120 But the nature of a protest, in the nature of 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.800 the police protecting this tiny number of protesters from a 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.720 much larger number of counter protesters, means that the police 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:44.000 become the opposing force, and I don't know how to 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.559 fix that, but I don't think that's a healthy development 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.840 because it shouldn't be the police versus the anti fascist 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.000 trying to get at the fascists. It should be, as 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:56.480 you say, the community, the nation, everybody being like And 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.320 maybe that's a free speech thing. Maybe we need to 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.199 say that, you know, you have freedom of speech. We 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:03.960 don't have the freedom of speech dyl fire in a 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.880 crowded theater. Likewise, you have freedom of speech, you don't 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.040 have freedom of speech to advocate for genocide and racial cleansing. 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:12.400 And maybe we don't give these people a platform to 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:14.800 speak so the police aren't put in a situation where 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.520 they're protecting them, so that we don't have anti fascists 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.120 yelling at police because they want to get to the Nazis. Um. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.480 I don't know what the solution is, but it's clearly 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.000 it can be done better than it's being done that 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.320 I think that kind of on that topic, one of 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:35.960 the things that would help is basically, so to preface this, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.480 we have seen multiple situations where the cops go a 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:44.240 little off script and funk up the counter protesters. We 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.440 saw that ship in Portland where a cop fire tear 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.880 escranade at the back of somebody's head and we've got 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.439 pictures of the cops after that happened, critically the back 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.800 of his head, but they're granted, like they're like, this 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.760 is fucking cool. And the thing is that happens to 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:06.360 anti fascists and black lives matter and anyone fighting these 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.600 assholes net all the time, the cops will funk up. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.520 The people fighting the Nazis are the racists or whoever 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:17.640 whatever fucking assholes out there. But we don't ever ever 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.720 see the cops break rank when it comes to dealing 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.199 with the Nazis, when it comes to protecting the fucking Nazis. 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.160 And do I understand that they have their orders and 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.440 I understand that their jobs there to protect the Nazis, 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.080 But what the thing that really needs to happen If 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.840 the cops don't want to be the bad guys here, 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.600 if they don't like hearing those chants at the protests 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.120 of who do you protect? Who do you serve? Like 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.720 they got real mad and there that one, and I mean, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.040 I just I like that, but they if they don't 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.160 want to hear those protests, then they need to be 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.040 just as willing to occasionally break the rules and funk 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.200 up the Nazis, or let the Nazis get sucked up 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.520 as they are to funk up the counter protesters. It's 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.000 like it's again one of those axiomatic things. Either they 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.840 need to be perfectly disciplined at fully protect acting the 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:05.040 Nazis and the anti fascists like they need to be 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.920 either either that they need to be utterly impartial mediators 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:13.280 in this situation, which they are not, or they need 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.200 to let the Nazis get fucked up sometimes so the 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.480 Nazis don't get to think the police are on their side. 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.240 One of the things that is really telling about that 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.800 observation is you know who is vulnerable and who is 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:29.560 not in that situation. The ones that the police are 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:36.120 not going to break the rules around are the people 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.880 who have the actual power. When the police are willing 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.439 to break the rules, they know they're not going to 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:47.400 have consequences for it because the people that they are 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.520 breaking rank over are the people who are vulnerable in 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:57.679 this situation. So, like with the situation in Portland, the 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:02.120 anti fascist protesters are the vulnerable people here. And the 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:07.800 fact that the Nazi sky metrocar of their own today 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:14.800 shows that the system of power ultimately is reinforcing their message. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.719 And I think so this is one of the things 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.160 that scares me is um. I am very sympathetic to 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.640 the anti fascists. I'm very sympathetic to activists today. When 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.680 there are chants like uh, you know who who do 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.600 you protect? Or when there are a chance to fund 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:38.720 the police, I understand the motivation because the police in 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.920 this country. I think if you're a reasonably well informed person, 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.600 you understand there's problems with law enforcement in this country. 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.560 There's issues with how it goes down. The fascist activists 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.520 and less these activists than other activists have been very 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.120 good at getting the police on their side. Um, and 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.520 there are there's evidence of this fact. In March thirteenth, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.400 the Holy and Security Analysts, in an email to local 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.160 law enforcement in Tennessee, noted that the Traditional Workers Party, 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:07.640 which is one of the groups that was behind the 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.160 first United the Right protest quote, typically is not the issue, 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.480 but rather opposing groups. In April, police in Georgia, and 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.680 this is April police enjoyed the revealed they planned for 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.040 massive violence at a local rally based on rumors that 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.600 were spread by a far right wing three per center, 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.960 which is like a militia group Facebook account that was 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.160 claiming that there would be twelve thousand anti fascists at 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.480 the party or at the the protests, and that they 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.840 would be looting and rioting and whatnot. The police trust 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.880 these people more than they trust the anti fascist activists. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.000 And I'm sure some of that has to do with 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.440 the fact that a lot of police officers or a 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.800 number of police officers have biases of their own, but 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.160 something best to do with the fact that all of 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.360 the racists at these rallies are nice to the police, 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.640 and all the anti fascists are yelling at them. Um. 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.600 And I'm not trying to be like, feel sorry for 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.360 the police or whatever, because that is not my my concern. 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.120 But there are some concerns to keep in mind, including 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.520 the fact that California police in a variety of counties 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:15.360 have been recorded working with fascist activists against anti fascist activists. Um. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.760 There was one case of a fascist activist who had 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.960 been arrested on domestic violence charge and the police, rather 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.160 than investigating him on that, started questioning him on trying 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.080 to get the names and identities of anti fascist activists 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.320 based on their pictures and then assured him we're not 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.400 looking at you as a perpetrator, We're looking at you 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.560 as a victim. There was a fascist that they were questioning. Yeah, 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.200 a fascist they were questioning. So it is clear that 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.200 their charm campaign against the police has not been ineffective. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.320 And again not to defend the police, but if you're 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.400 just getting yelled at by these people all day long, 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.120 I can see why the tiny group of folks who 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.360 are being polite to you, why that might be more compelling. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.120 And this is not a right or wrong issues. Is 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.360 purely a tactical issue of what is more effective, and 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.320 I do you feel like the anti fascist side of 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.840 the equation could more effectively dialogue with the police to 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.840 let them know, we're not happy with how the situation 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:13.040 is going down, but we're not angry at you. We're 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.320 trying to get to that. I don't know what they're right. 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.200 You're really walking a fine line there with home policing. 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.240 So it's a it's a it's a it's a very 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:26.280 valid concern, and it's a very real recommendation because it 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.640 is effective, But it also is the sort of thing 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.919 that like, yes, this anger is justified like like like 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.720 attracts like. I have a couple of thoughts here that 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.840 relate to how this stuff interplays with activists and race. 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:49.560 So I think that you're not wrong, and that in 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.359 a completely sterile environment, you know, these ideal physics experiments environments, 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:55.800 I would I would be like, I would say, you're 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.520 probably right that that they need to court the police 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.440 and get them like to see about the anti fascists 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.919 is like the ones fighting for democracy and all that stuff, 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.960 because presumably if the police actually believe any of their oaths, 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.480 then they would they would go along with that. But 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.280 I think it's kind of it ends up being another 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:14.919 one of the things that's very different when you were 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.080 talking with mostly white people and when you're talking with 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:18.840 mostly black people. I feel the same way about the 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.520 argument as to whether or not to employ violence, because 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.840 for black people, the police are a threat to our 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.719 fucking existence most of the time. I grew up with cops. 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.720 My dad was a cop. I grew up around cops. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.000 I used to feel safe around cops, and that was 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.280 entirely incorrect. Then, like, they are not here for us, 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.080 They are dangerous to us all the time. So the 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.879 thing is that like, the fact that they're dangerous to 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:51.320 us in this context as anti fascist protesters isn't different 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.880 to me than like every day, So like, I don't 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.800 care that they're against me, because they're always against me. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.720 I could get shot because they thought my phone looked 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.960 as fishes. However, when anti fascist groups are primarily white, 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.840 or when they're in places like Portland's, or when they're 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:09.640 in like there, there are places where most the anti 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.240 fascists are white and the cops are probably white and 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.840 all of this other ship, Like, I kind of have 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.720 a little more of that idea that you know, maybe 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.120 the white and anti fascists should like get in good 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.080 with the police, because the thing is, their relationship with 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:22.800 the police is different, and it kind of relates to 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.399 the way I feel about the argument about whether or 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.720 not people should employ violence. It is all well and 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.960 good for white activists to talk to each other about 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.720 whether or not they should employ violence, because the violent 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.840 rhetoric of the Nazis is by and large not aimed 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.479 at them. So if there's a way that that mostly 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.879 white people in this country, that is mostly white people 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.720 um or at least a majority white people, could get 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.480 together and find a way to fight back against this 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.720 and push back and change the world without violence. Then 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.000 do it, but understand that for the rest of us, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.280 this is never not been a fight to the death. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.840 It's just a slow fight to the death. And I 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:13.679 think that's a basic entry level requirement for understanding to like, 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.840 quote unquote be a good ally is to get that 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.360 piece of it. And you were talking earlier about what 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.480 they ANDIFI discuss about, like who's arrestable? Yeah, well that 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:26.040 was that was a Standing Rock thing. I don't know 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.200 because I'm not privy to antiplause. In turn, to catch 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.320 the listener up. When I was at Standing Rock, there 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.760 were a number of posters around this saying are you 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.720 are you arrestable? Sign up for a variety of events 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.000 because a lot of the Native American activists or Indigenous 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.959 American activists who were active at that event had been 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.120 arrested a number of times already, and if they were 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.800 arrested anymore, they already had pending court cases. They could 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.320 not continue to be in the front lines dealing with 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.080 the police, and so they were asking for There were 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:59.640 a lot of that standing young white, mostly early twenties 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.600 early teens activists who had showed up. These are people 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.680 who could stand have a couple of arrests on their record. 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:08.560 It wouldn't suck their lives up. And so they were saying, essentially, 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.920 use your privilege as a middle class white kid, because 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:14.480 it's not going to be bad for you if you 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.760 get arrested. So so stand in the front of the line, 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.880 be in the front of these actions that we're doing 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.200 to try to delay the construction of this pipeline. I 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.760 don't know if that's part of anti fad strategy because nothing. Actually, um, 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.760 I was very right after the inauguration, I was very 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.560 interested in things like Black Block tactics and the groups 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.000 like that. One of the things when I was looking 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:35.480 into Black Block, one of the things they were saying 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.080 was people doing black black tactics need to be white, 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.280