1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Hm. I'm Robert Evans, and this is again Behind the Bastards, 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: the show where we tell you everything you don't know 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: about the very worst people in all of history. Now. Normally, 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: at least, that's what the show is about, but this 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: week we're talking about, you know, the Nazis, the modern Nazis, 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: the Nazis who are marching in the streets of America 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: right now, and who, in fact, we're marching in the 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: streets of Washington, d C. Just a few minutes before 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: this podcast was recorded. Uh. In part one of this episode, 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: we dissected the new Nazi movement and how it's changed 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: since Charlottesville. Uh. And in this episode, we're gonna be 12 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: talking about what we saw at the Unite the Right 13 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: two point o rally and and more to the point, 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: we're going to be trying to answer the question is 15 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: it a good idea to punch Nazis now? First, I 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: should say nobody that we're gonna be talking with today 17 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: punch Nazi. Today's rally it went pretty much as well 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: as these sort of things can go, but it's it's 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: still a question. I think it is worth debating. If 20 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: you spend any amount of time online and anti fascist 21 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: activists are goals. You will come across this Hitler quote, 22 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: probably next to a picture of Richard Spencer getting punched 23 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: in the face. The quote, as it is usually displayed, reads, 24 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: only one thing could have stopped our movement if our 25 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day 26 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement. 27 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: And it's an Adolf Hitler quote. And Hitler did say 28 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: those words, but he did not say exactly those quotes 29 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: in that order. Um, as is usually the case with 30 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: online quotes attributed to any sort of famous person, it's 31 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: a little bit wrong. So I'm gonna read the actual 32 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Hitler quote, which was given during a speech in ninety three. 33 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: Only one danger could have jeopardized this development, if our 34 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of 35 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: our ideas and not offered any resistance. Or alternatively, if 36 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost 37 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: brutality the nucleus of our new movement. So you see 38 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: the difference there and the quote that's usually spread around online. 39 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: It says Hitler was basically saying the only thing that 40 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: could have stopped us was if people had beat us 41 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: up in the streets during our rise to power. The 42 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: actual quote is Hitler was saying two things. We could 43 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: have been stopped if we'd have been beaten up in 44 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: the streets, or if people had very clearly and very 45 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: cogently elucidated what we were about, what we wanted, and 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: made it clear to everyone what our goals were and 47 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: what our plans were. That could have stopped us, too, 48 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: especially if the people doing it had been nonviolent. So 49 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: Hitler's opinion on the matter is a little bit more 50 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: multifaceted than is usually presented, And so the question of 51 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: whether or not it's a good idea to punch Nazis 52 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: is a little bit more complicated than anti Nazi activists 53 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: like to feel. And I say this as someone who 54 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: has just done some anti Nazi activism, So I'm not 55 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: uh inherently against the idea of hitting these people either, 56 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: It's it's a complicated issue. I think there's a couple 57 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: of things we need to keep in mind before we 58 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: get into our discussion. One of them is that in 59 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties and German during the rise 60 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: of the Nazi Party. There were constant riots and running 61 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: street bad all across Weimar, Germany. And in the mid 62 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties when this was all going on, Berlin was 63 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: known as the reddest city in Europe. As we talked 64 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: about on our Non Nazi Bastards episode, Berlin was if 65 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: you were gay, if you were trans, if you were progressive, 66 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: maybe the best city in the world to live in 67 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: um and it was very much not a friendly place 68 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: for Nazis. The rally we were just at had fifty 69 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: or so Nazi activists or less in several thousand anti 70 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: Nazi activists, and it wouldn't have been very different in 71 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: Berlin when the Nazis first arrived. Uh Now, the guy 72 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: that Hitler put in charts of Berlin when the Nazis 73 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: first started trying to make inroads into the reddest city 74 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: in Europe was Joseph Gebbel's Uh. Gebbels put in charge 75 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: of the Berlin's Nazi branch, and his whole strategy when 76 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: he gained that position was to send his very few 77 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: Berlin Nazis directly into leftist control chunk chunks of the city. Now, 78 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: Gebbels Nazis would fight with anti fascist activists, with communist activists, 79 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: withist activists, and there would be street battles, and the 80 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: Nazis lost a lot of these street battles. They lost 81 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people, some of them were killed. But 82 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: the violence that this incurred helped inspire UH conservatives within 83 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: the German government to be afraid of the anti Nazi activists. 84 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: So it's not it's not clear that fighting Nazis in 85 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: Berlin helped stop them. Um political moderates were alienated by 86 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: the violence, and since they were closer to the fire 87 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: right Nazis than the far left anti fascists, well, the 88 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: conservatives wound up making cause with Hitler. And that's more 89 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: or less what happened. That was the Nazis planned from 90 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: the beginning and it worked out. So the question of 91 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: what's to be done about these Nazis is complicated. Can 92 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: violence make racists a freight again or does it only 93 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: help them? In the lead up to the first Charlottesville rally, 94 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: the fascists went in looking for conflict. In today's rally, 95 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: it was a different matter. And today I'm gonna be 96 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: talking with a round table of people that I attended 97 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: this protest with UH and we're going to try to 98 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of whether or not it's a 99 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: good idea to hit Nazis, and we'll also be talking 100 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: about what we saw and how we feel about the day. 101 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: So that's my thing. There's a little bit of time 102 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: dilation between what the users or listeners listening are going 103 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: to hear and what has happened in the conversation. So 104 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: from 'all's perspective, I just finished reading a speech about 105 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: the whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis. 106 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: And from our perspective, we've been drinking for ninety minutes 107 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: or more after getting done yelling at Nazis all day, 108 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: So the listeners should be aware that nobody is sober 109 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: in this situation. And then now we're going to talk 110 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: about whether or not it's a good idea to hit 111 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: Nazis and also what happened at this Nazi protest in 112 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: d C. So let's let's go around the room and 113 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: introduce our talkers about their Nazi yelling at experiences. That 114 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: was good, That was a good line. I feel good 115 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: about that. Well. One of the things that we saw 116 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: early on. My name is Hannah at ginger Um. I 117 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: was on the last episode over and my pod has 118 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: his Kitchen Table cult. I host that with Kiaran dark Water. 119 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: Um So. One of the things that happened early on 120 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: this morning was at the Foggy Bottom metro station, right 121 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: after the Nazis got off the train. They were about 122 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: thirty or some of them, maybe less. There was this 123 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: really fantastically angry old white guy with a British accent. 124 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: He was like he was like an aging punk or something, 125 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: and he was calling them you wankers, over and over 126 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: and he left over the cops to try to, like 127 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, express his rage. And he had a 128 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: bike and then he fell into them. He fell into 129 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: the bike and they were shoving him and the cops 130 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: hit him and he got kicked. He got kicked. I 131 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 1: tried to get on video and I missed it. But 132 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: whoever you are, you're our hero of the day, and 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: this podcast is dedicated to you. Ran the British guy 134 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: who who did one of the best leaps over a 135 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: line of cops I've ever seen to try to punch 136 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: a Nazi in the face. Regardless of what we land 137 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: on visa v hitting Nazis is a good idea. You're 138 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: a hero. And I want that to be clear to 139 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: everybody that I'm I think that man is a hero. 140 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: Should I ever run into you again, I'm not sure 141 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: if I would recognize you because things were pretty nuts. 142 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: But if I should ever run into you again, I 143 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: will buy you a beer, perhaps several beers. Please give 144 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: us a shout out. We'd like to buy you a beer. 145 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: All right, Nick yourself, I am Nick Wood. I am 146 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: a former marine. I'm currently an apprentice farmer and also 147 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: science fiction writer. And I'm kind of on team punch 148 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: Nazis until they can't see. My name is Lauren Mario. 149 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: That's my first protest ever, uh in life? So I'm 150 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: overwere with different feelings and emotions right now or what 151 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: I saw and how I failed, But punching Nazi Nazis 152 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: is definitely something I did not I felt at one point, 153 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: but then it gradually went away, as at the road 154 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: taste moment. What are you feeling right now? Oh man, 155 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, I can't believe it. People are 156 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: still like doing things that my grandmother told me about. 157 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm steal fighting the fight and my grandmother 158 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: and grandfather was fighting many years ago. I felt, I 159 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: feel like, we settled this twice twice? How many fucking 160 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: times do we have to keep kicking the ship out 161 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: of the fucking Nazis? Um? But well, kind of the 162 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: way I feel, you know, you're talking about how the 163 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: hitler was saying that either people being very like intellectual 164 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: about it and very cojing like understanding that these guys 165 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: are evil fuckers and then just like not fighting them, 166 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: or them getting the absolute ever loving ship kicked out 167 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: of them. Like I'm kind of on team kicks the 168 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: ship out of them Nazis, because you know, they want 169 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: to eradicate me and everyone that looks like me from existence. 170 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: But the thing is, I think that the only way 171 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: for that to be effective is for it would have 172 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: It's more effective when like the town kicks the ship 173 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: out of the Nazis and not a team of anti 174 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: fascist kicks the shadow of the Nazis. Because when it's 175 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: like Antifa fighting twenty five Nazis or whatever is going 176 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: on or what you know, there's obviously the odds change. 177 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: But like when it's a small group of Antifa fighting 178 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: the Nazis, then you can you can be like, well, 179 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: there's good or bad people on both sides, or people 180 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: can be like, well, I'm violence is never the answer. 181 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: But when the entire town of you know, Washington, d C. 182 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: Gets up and like kicks the ship out of all 183 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: of the Nazis, what that says is, don't come to Washington, 184 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: d C. If you're a fucking Nazi. And I think 185 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: that's true. One of the things that unsettles me a 186 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: little bit about demonstrations like this, and I think is 187 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: a legitimate risk to avoid it is that, um, the 188 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: police are there. And I'm sure I know that because 189 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: one of the police officers who was photographed d DO 190 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: today has nazi Ish tattoos and has been photographed cosplaying 191 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: as a Nazi. Um, So I'm sure some of these 192 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: guys are sympathetic a Nazis, but most of them aren't. 193 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: There were a lot of black officers, There are a 194 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: lot of Latino officers. There were a lot of Filipino 195 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: and Asian officers. I'm sure they're not Nazis, because why 196 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,479 Speaker 1: would they be. There's nothing in that ideology for them. 197 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: But the nature of a protest, in the nature of 198 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: the police protecting this tiny number of protesters from a 199 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: much larger number of counter protesters, means that the police 200 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: become the opposing force, and I don't know how to 201 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: fix that, but I don't think that's a healthy development 202 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: because it shouldn't be the police versus the anti fascist 203 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: trying to get at the fascists. It should be, as 204 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: you say, the community, the nation, everybody being like And 205 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: maybe that's a free speech thing. Maybe we need to 206 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: say that, you know, you have freedom of speech. We 207 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: don't have the freedom of speech dyl fire in a 208 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: crowded theater. Likewise, you have freedom of speech, you don't 209 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: have freedom of speech to advocate for genocide and racial cleansing. 210 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: And maybe we don't give these people a platform to 211 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: speak so the police aren't put in a situation where 212 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: they're protecting them, so that we don't have anti fascists 213 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: yelling at police because they want to get to the Nazis. Um. 214 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what the solution is, but it's clearly 215 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: it can be done better than it's being done that 216 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: I think that kind of on that topic, one of 217 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: the things that would help is basically, so to preface this, 218 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: we have seen multiple situations where the cops go a 219 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: little off script and funk up the counter protesters. We 220 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: saw that ship in Portland where a cop fire tear 221 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: escranade at the back of somebody's head and we've got 222 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: pictures of the cops after that happened, critically the back 223 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: of his head, but they're granted, like they're like, this 224 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: is fucking cool. And the thing is that happens to 225 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: anti fascists and black lives matter and anyone fighting these 226 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: assholes net all the time, the cops will funk up. 227 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: The people fighting the Nazis are the racists or whoever 228 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: whatever fucking assholes out there. But we don't ever ever 229 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: see the cops break rank when it comes to dealing 230 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: with the Nazis, when it comes to protecting the fucking Nazis. 231 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: And do I understand that they have their orders and 232 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: I understand that their jobs there to protect the Nazis, 233 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: But what the thing that really needs to happen If 234 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: the cops don't want to be the bad guys here, 235 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: if they don't like hearing those chants at the protests 236 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: of who do you protect? Who do you serve? Like 237 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: they got real mad and there that one, and I mean, 238 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: I just I like that, but they if they don't 239 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: want to hear those protests, then they need to be 240 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: just as willing to occasionally break the rules and funk 241 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: up the Nazis, or let the Nazis get sucked up 242 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: as they are to funk up the counter protesters. It's 243 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: like it's again one of those axiomatic things. Either they 244 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: need to be perfectly disciplined at fully protect acting the 245 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: Nazis and the anti fascists like they need to be 246 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: either either that they need to be utterly impartial mediators 247 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: in this situation, which they are not, or they need 248 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: to let the Nazis get fucked up sometimes so the 249 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: Nazis don't get to think the police are on their side. 250 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: One of the things that is really telling about that 251 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: observation is you know who is vulnerable and who is 252 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: not in that situation. The ones that the police are 253 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: not going to break the rules around are the people 254 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: who have the actual power. When the police are willing 255 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: to break the rules, they know they're not going to 256 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: have consequences for it because the people that they are 257 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: breaking rank over are the people who are vulnerable in 258 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: this situation. So, like with the situation in Portland, the 259 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: anti fascist protesters are the vulnerable people here. And the 260 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: fact that the Nazi sky metrocar of their own today 261 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: shows that the system of power ultimately is reinforcing their message. 262 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: And I think so this is one of the things 263 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: that scares me is um. I am very sympathetic to 264 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: the anti fascists. I'm very sympathetic to activists today. When 265 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: there are chants like uh, you know who who do 266 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: you protect? Or when there are a chance to fund 267 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: the police, I understand the motivation because the police in 268 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: this country. I think if you're a reasonably well informed person, 269 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: you understand there's problems with law enforcement in this country. 270 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: There's issues with how it goes down. The fascist activists 271 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: and less these activists than other activists have been very 272 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: good at getting the police on their side. Um, and 273 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: there are there's evidence of this fact. In March thirteenth, 274 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: the Holy and Security Analysts, in an email to local 275 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: law enforcement in Tennessee, noted that the Traditional Workers Party, 276 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: which is one of the groups that was behind the 277 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: first United the Right protest quote, typically is not the issue, 278 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: but rather opposing groups. In April, police in Georgia, and 279 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: this is April police enjoyed the revealed they planned for 280 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: massive violence at a local rally based on rumors that 281 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: were spread by a far right wing three per center, 282 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: which is like a militia group Facebook account that was 283 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: claiming that there would be twelve thousand anti fascists at 284 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: the party or at the the protests, and that they 285 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: would be looting and rioting and whatnot. The police trust 286 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: these people more than they trust the anti fascist activists. 287 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: And I'm sure some of that has to do with 288 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of police officers or a 289 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: number of police officers have biases of their own, but 290 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: something best to do with the fact that all of 291 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: the racists at these rallies are nice to the police, 292 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: and all the anti fascists are yelling at them. Um. 293 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to be like, feel sorry for 294 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: the police or whatever, because that is not my my concern. 295 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: But there are some concerns to keep in mind, including 296 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: the fact that California police in a variety of counties 297 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: have been recorded working with fascist activists against anti fascist activists. Um. 298 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: There was one case of a fascist activist who had 299 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: been arrested on domestic violence charge and the police, rather 300 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: than investigating him on that, started questioning him on trying 301 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: to get the names and identities of anti fascist activists 302 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: based on their pictures and then assured him we're not 303 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: looking at you as a perpetrator, We're looking at you 304 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: as a victim. There was a fascist that they were questioning. Yeah, 305 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: a fascist they were questioning. So it is clear that 306 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: their charm campaign against the police has not been ineffective. 307 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: And again not to defend the police, but if you're 308 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: just getting yelled at by these people all day long, 309 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: I can see why the tiny group of folks who 310 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: are being polite to you, why that might be more compelling. 311 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: And this is not a right or wrong issues. Is 312 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: purely a tactical issue of what is more effective, and 313 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: I do you feel like the anti fascist side of 314 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: the equation could more effectively dialogue with the police to 315 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: let them know, we're not happy with how the situation 316 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: is going down, but we're not angry at you. We're 317 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: trying to get to that. I don't know what they're right. 318 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: You're really walking a fine line there with home policing. 319 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a it's a it's a very 320 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: valid concern, and it's a very real recommendation because it 321 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: is effective, But it also is the sort of thing 322 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: that like, yes, this anger is justified like like like 323 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: attracts like. I have a couple of thoughts here that 324 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: relate to how this stuff interplays with activists and race. 325 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: So I think that you're not wrong, and that in 326 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: a completely sterile environment, you know, these ideal physics experiments environments, 327 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: I would I would be like, I would say, you're 328 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: probably right that that they need to court the police 329 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: and get them like to see about the anti fascists 330 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: is like the ones fighting for democracy and all that stuff, 331 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: because presumably if the police actually believe any of their oaths, 332 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: then they would they would go along with that. But 333 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of it ends up being another 334 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: one of the things that's very different when you were 335 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: talking with mostly white people and when you're talking with 336 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: mostly black people. I feel the same way about the 337 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: argument as to whether or not to employ violence, because 338 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: for black people, the police are a threat to our 339 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 1: fucking existence most of the time. I grew up with cops. 340 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: My dad was a cop. I grew up around cops. 341 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: I used to feel safe around cops, and that was 342 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: entirely incorrect. Then, like, they are not here for us, 343 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: They are dangerous to us all the time. So the 344 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: thing is that like, the fact that they're dangerous to 345 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: us in this context as anti fascist protesters isn't different 346 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: to me than like every day, So like, I don't 347 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: care that they're against me, because they're always against me. 348 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: I could get shot because they thought my phone looked 349 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: as fishes. However, when anti fascist groups are primarily white, 350 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: or when they're in places like Portland's, or when they're 351 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: in like there, there are places where most the anti 352 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: fascists are white and the cops are probably white and 353 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: all of this other ship, Like, I kind of have 354 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: a little more of that idea that you know, maybe 355 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: the white and anti fascists should like get in good 356 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: with the police, because the thing is, their relationship with 357 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: the police is different, and it kind of relates to 358 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: the way I feel about the argument about whether or 359 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: not people should employ violence. It is all well and 360 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: good for white activists to talk to each other about 361 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: whether or not they should employ violence, because the violent 362 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: rhetoric of the Nazis is by and large not aimed 363 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 1: at them. So if there's a way that that mostly 364 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: white people in this country, that is mostly white people 365 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: um or at least a majority white people, could get 366 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: together and find a way to fight back against this 367 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: and push back and change the world without violence. Then 368 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: do it, but understand that for the rest of us, 369 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: this is never not been a fight to the death. 370 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: It's just a slow fight to the death. And I 371 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: think that's a basic entry level requirement for understanding to like, 372 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: quote unquote be a good ally is to get that 373 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: piece of it. And you were talking earlier about what 374 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: they ANDIFI discuss about, like who's arrestable? Yeah, well that 375 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: was that was a Standing Rock thing. I don't know 376 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: because I'm not privy to antiplause. In turn, to catch 377 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: the listener up. When I was at Standing Rock, there 378 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: were a number of posters around this saying are you 379 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: are you arrestable? Sign up for a variety of events 380 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: because a lot of the Native American activists or Indigenous 381 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: American activists who were active at that event had been 382 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: arrested a number of times already, and if they were 383 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: arrested anymore, they already had pending court cases. They could 384 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: not continue to be in the front lines dealing with 385 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: the police, and so they were asking for There were 386 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: a lot of that standing young white, mostly early twenties 387 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: early teens activists who had showed up. These are people 388 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: who could stand have a couple of arrests on their record. 389 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: It wouldn't suck their lives up. And so they were saying, essentially, 390 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: use your privilege as a middle class white kid, because 391 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: it's not going to be bad for you if you 392 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: get arrested. So so stand in the front of the line, 393 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: be in the front of these actions that we're doing 394 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: to try to delay the construction of this pipeline. I 395 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: don't know if that's part of anti fad strategy because nothing. Actually, um, 396 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: I was very right after the inauguration, I was very 397 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: interested in things like Black Block tactics and the groups 398 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: like that. One of the things when I was looking 399 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: into Black Block, one of the things they were saying 400 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: was people doing black black tactics need to be white, 401 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: and probably meant because white dudes can get away with 402 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 1: fucking anything. And like, if someone's got to run in 403 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: and punch the Nazis and get in there and push 404 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: the police around and break windows and set shot on fire, 405 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: because you know, kinetic disturbance is part of what runs revolution, 406 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: like make it the white people do it, and so 407 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: like I didn't get involved in Black Block because I 408 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: knew that if I, well, it might have been bad 409 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: for my wife and her career. But like, but be like, 410 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: if I got involved with black Block, it might be 411 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: fun for me, but like, and it might be satisfying 412 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: for me, But the very first time I ran into 413 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: the police, I run the risk of being killed or 414 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: imprisoned or just like a bunch of real bad ship 415 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: happening to me. And I don't. I have My life 416 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: affects other people's lives. And if it were just about 417 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: if I were single and unattached, I'd be doing that 418 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: ship all day. But I don't get to do that 419 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: because I have to care about other people. Yeah. Right, 420 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: So they say consequences for you as a human are 421 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: low punch Nazis. But if you're in a place where 422 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: you do not have the privilege of being able to 423 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 1: afford that risk, there are other ways you can be 424 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: smart to resist. There is an additional dimension to it, 425 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: which is that, um, you have to consider it's not 426 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: just okay, it's punching Nazis safe for you, Because if 427 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: if punching Nazis were always good, and punching Nazis was 428 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: safe for you, then if it's safe for you to 429 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: punch the Nazi, punch a Nazi. But there's an optics 430 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: battle that is being fought. There's a battle larger than 431 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: the sympathy of the police, the sympathy of the nation 432 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: where people stand and that is it is specifically the 433 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: sympathy of white people. Well, yeah, I mean, for damn sure, 434 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: what I was talking about this morning when we were 435 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: recording about how campaigning with for North m indoor knocking 436 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: and like hearing like moderates talking about, Yeah, this Charlottesville 437 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: was ugly and these people are inciting violence, So we're 438 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: going to vote against them, We're going to vote for 439 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: the Dems. And so that's another thing, is like, yeah, 440 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: we have to be aware of the optics of this, 441 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: and like, are we inciting violence? Are we like going 442 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: low when they go low? Are we going high? Like 443 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: are we meeting them at their level and giving them 444 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: the terms of the debate? And are we giving the 445 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: Nazis what they want? Because I think that's a valid 446 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: question to ask, and I there are a number of 447 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: quotes from and again in the first part of this, 448 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: I read through a lot of their conversations, so we 449 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: do know a lot of things that they've said. We 450 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: know for one that they're embarrassed at the idea of 451 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: being outnumbered and being needed to be protected by the police. 452 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: I found this conversation in a yeah and again, there 453 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: were at least a couple of thousand anti fascist activists, 454 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: and don't you find it interesting that the cops were 455 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: not protecting any anti fascist protesters that when you saw 456 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: much larger dubs of anti fascist protesters marching in the streets, 457 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: they the cops were nowhere to be found. But when 458 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: it's twelve Nazis, cops all around them securing them, Nazis 459 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: got like a double row of cops protecting them from protesters, 460 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: and the yeah, and then when and then when a 461 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: crowd of anti fascist protesters as gathered around to yell 462 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: at then we got surrounded by three more rows of 463 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: cops on the backside of our group. They started like 464 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: sneaking up and it wasn't they weren't protecting us. So yeah, 465 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: I do think the question now that when people I 466 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: think the larger question of how we treat police folks 467 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: on the lattreet. Police is fine, but the question of 468 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: who do you protect, like, why is that? Why is 469 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: it that a handful of Nathis get so like so 470 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: much taxpayer money in terms of protection by police, and 471 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: that you know, ten twenty times the amount of anti 472 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: fascist protesters get nothing because the system is designed to 473 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: support them. I mean, I don't want to say it, 474 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: but doesn't it seem that way? It does, And again 475 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: I want to make it clear, No, none of what 476 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying is a moral argument in favor of the police, 477 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: because I'm not. And none of it is a moral 478 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 1: argument favored of the tactics. What I'm asking is our 479 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: favor of the fascist What I'm asking is is it 480 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: an effective tactic to punch knots these? Does it bring 481 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: us closer to our goal if they're not being Nazis? Well, 482 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: here's um, you know, because we want to make compared 483 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of ways, it's good to 484 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: make historical comparisons between it's happening now and what happened 485 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: in Viromar, Germany, because holy sh it, it's very fun. 486 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: We're following them, following the playbook. There are even instances 487 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: where people made quotes that like if you said, did 488 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: this someone say this in Vimar, Germany? Or you know, 489 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: like America, you're like artic guys please. Yeah. Yeah, so 490 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of value of that. But here's one 491 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: of the ways in which it's different. The Nazis in Vimar, 492 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: Germany were actually tough fuckers. Yeah, they all survived the 493 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: trenches in World War One, which is probably the worst 494 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: combat human beings have lived through. Yeah, so when so 495 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: when fighting them in the streets, you know, if you're 496 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: not in a situation where everyone's fighting in the streets, 497 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: when it's just like anti fascist and fascist fighting and 498 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: both sides are equally dangerous, in the sides are equally competent, 499 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: and they're both they're they're all I mean to some extent, 500 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of like when the punks fight the skinheads, 501 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: Like both of those groups of people are well used 502 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: to beating the ship out of each other. That might 503 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: not be very effective because if you punch a Nazi 504 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: who's used to getting punched, he's just like, okay, I 505 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: got punched today, sweet, then like write that down if 506 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: he's a proud boy, but he probably isn't. And that's cereals, right, yeah, yeah, 507 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: because like you obviously can't get your nose broken if 508 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: you're naming cereals, And that's kind of the place where 509 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: I kind of find a little bit of a wrinkle 510 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: in that and when talking about that, because we were 511 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: like optics is a definite discussion. But also the morale 512 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: of Okay, I think of things as like, in tactical sense, 513 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: the nasties are my they are my enemies, so I 514 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: think of them like, so the enemy's morale is important 515 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: because breaking the enemies morales that you win. Um, it's 516 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: not actually about destroying them necessarily, it's about making them 517 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: never want to fight you again. And with a lot 518 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: of these fun years, they don't know how to fight. 519 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: They don't they're not they're not Nazis in the sense 520 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: that the Nazis and Rye or Germany, where they aren't 521 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: tough bastards their Larber scariot that exactly, they're Larber's and 522 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: so like when they're afraid of being outnumbered and terrified, 523 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: we need to lean into that because one of the 524 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: problems is that, like, it would it be great if 525 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: there was like a Women's March style protests where it's 526 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: like pretty peaceful, everybody's getting along, it's mostly just a 527 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: giant rolling party, and we're like, yeah, there's you know, 528 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: just like everybody's there. Everbody's been a great time. There's 529 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: thousands of people. That's great when it happens. There was 530 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: the Queer Resistance Dance party. It was it wasn't thousands, 531 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: but it was big. Yeah, And those are good and 532 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: they're they're great for the optics and it's really good. 533 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: But it's also good and it's great for every and 534 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: it's great time. And that's another part of it too, 535 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: is it's great to see people having a great time 536 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: just you know, peacefully resist in the Nazis. But it's 537 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: also effective, you know, like for those of us that 538 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: are going to be screaming at the Nazis and it's 539 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: not going to be a peaceful live at all, Like 540 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: even if no one's getting punched, it's like not going 541 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: to be a peaceful live standing in front of a 542 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: crowd of anti fascists for those people, Like the optics 543 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: are not gonna be on our side anyway, because we've 544 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: got these civility suckers like being like, well, you're not 545 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: being nice. You shouldn't be swearing at it, Like okay, 546 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: we've already lost the optics battle in that regard. In 547 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: terms of like the moderate times on my side. So 548 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: what's the next most effective part of my tactic. Well, 549 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: the next most effective thing that I'm worried about is 550 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: the morale of my enemy. And when these guys are 551 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: literally weak little ships, like they're just lar birds, they're 552 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: Nazi larber's. Yeah, And I think I think at this point, 553 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: what with what you're talking about, one of the key 554 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: things is like endurance, Like they are really enchanted by 555 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: the idea of having it be a one and done takeover, 556 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: like being able to just like overpower something. And that's 557 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: that's been part of the the whole mission since it 558 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: was first invented. And UM, being able to get large 559 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: numbers of people to show up consistently over time and 560 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: yell them down is going to show them that we 561 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: can outlast them. And I do think I think over 562 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: time is critical. So I'm gonna I'm gonna read for 563 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: just a minute here, UM to go over some stuff 564 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: I found in their own chats. One is from a 565 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: January eighteen thread about a rally where Richard Spencer and 566 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: thirty fascists had to be escorted past the crowd of 567 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: two thousand protesters. This is what the Nazis said about 568 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: that rally. Quote first guy in the threat, these are 569 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: brute those are brutal odds. With enough discipline and hopefully 570 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: a halfway decent decent police force, we can survive. The 571 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: first response was due to it takes rule of law 572 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: to protect thirty versus two thousand. Discipline means nothing at 573 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: that point. The only thing keeping us alive is their 574 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: fear of the police. Now, there was an other post 575 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: that I found in a Facebook threat by Cat Snyder, 576 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: who was marching today I think in the anti fat 577 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: or in the fascist march. UH. Cat is an activist 578 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: within Jason Kessler circle. She is a fascist activist UM. 579 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: She posted in May when they were planning the rally 580 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: that we just all got from that she had attended 581 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: a Trump impeachment town hall near her home and called 582 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: it quote absolutely frightening and said that quote the money 583 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: in that room, the power, the numbers. So she was 584 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: very scared by the number of people that she saw 585 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: in opposition to her, and she was also very scared 586 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: by the number of people that she saw a demonstrations 587 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: against folks like Richard Spencer. And my question is, since 588 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: optics are such an important part of the battle, is 589 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: it more valuable that we be seen in Moss resisting 590 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: than it is that we physically confront these people, because 591 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: physical confrontation breeds, if not empathy, then at least more 592 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: empathy than we want the Nazis to have. And the 593 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: person I want to pose that question too first is 594 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: Laurent over here. He's been quite quiet and just finished 595 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: attending his first protest. So, Luran, sorry to put you 596 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: on the spots. Wow you did? I did? I put 597 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: you really on the spot? You really did? Uh? Boy, 598 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: I tell you that, yeah. We basically I'm just open 599 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: William still like I, um, I can't believe it, Like 600 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: I really can't believe what I just experienced, the whole 601 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: from the beginning to the end to the going back 602 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: and seeing the costs presence, uh, and knowing how I 603 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,719 Speaker 1: already feel about the costs as it is, especially when 604 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: it comes of my safety. You know, I know I 605 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: never feel like it here for my safety, Like I 606 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: don't want to depend on costs for anything as far 607 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: as my safety goes. I think if you were repeat 608 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: the yeah, you set up your mind instead and basically 609 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: asking so the Nazis are clearly demoralized by the fact 610 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: that they're outnumbered, right, Is it better to just outnumber 611 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: them or do we need to physically confront them? Do 612 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: we need to be violent with them? Or is it 613 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: best to just show up and be consistently a show 614 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: of our numbers against theirs? Oh okay, well, yeah, definitely 615 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: I felt from my observation today was watching them, A 616 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: lot of them flee as as the crowd got bigger. 617 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: You know, I guess they don't like intimidation. They can't 618 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: stand to be intimidated, which is uh yeah, Which was 619 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: what I really noticed the most today was that I 620 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: say a lot of them wrapping the flags up, moving 621 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: of the way, like the larger the crowds got the 622 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: latter it guy, A lot of them weren't, like, don't 623 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: if they uh they completed buy in, or if they 624 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: bought in and didn't realize I couldn't stand the heat 625 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 1: or does that say, uh, he got a little hot 626 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: in the kitchen, the hay to get out my kitchen 627 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: wasn't even it was hotting what they would have spec against. 628 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: It was only maybe that fifty of them at all, 629 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: and they don't didn't even show up at the same time. 630 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: From the watching the beginning of the march to the 631 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: end of the march. You only have a small station 632 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: jump out from the beginning, and he had others followed 633 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: their own, and there were a lot of this from 634 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: just observation, I don't know about actual numbers, there seemed 635 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: to be a fair number that we're undercover, that we're 636 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: wandering around, and that is kind of telling that they 637 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: were unwilling to show themselves with the main group. They 638 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: were unwilling to actually participate, but they were there with 639 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: sticks and umbrellas in hand to use his weapons in 640 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: case they got the chance. And explain when you pointed 641 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: this out to me, and I man slain to you 642 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: that I didn't think it was a problem because I'm 643 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: an asshole, and I was completely wrong because they wound 644 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: up being the secret Nazis that later led to almost 645 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: a fight with the police. Right. So, Um, what I 646 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: saw was there was a guy with a red rain 647 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: jacket with the hood pulled up really high and it 648 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: was zipped up over his face, and he was carrying 649 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: an umbrella, and he was wearing a backpack, and he 650 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: was with another guy who was all in black. Could 651 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: have looked like an antiphop but clearly UM was not 652 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: operating with them. And that was what I thought, as 653 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: I just said he was all in black. He was 654 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: like all in like you know, under armor or whatever. 655 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: And he had a like a cane and was walking around. 656 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: And these are all three white guys. And there was 657 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: a third who was also wearing a hood and um 658 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: a bandanna, and he had a like a wooden huge 659 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: wooden stick stuck into his backpack, underneath his backpack holding 660 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: it up. And it was like looking at them, I 661 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: was like, three white dudes, completely independent, no ANTIFA like 662 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: paraphernalia on them, Like you know, the Antipha was really 663 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: persistent about like don't take pictures, don't take pictures if 664 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: you want to support only groups and their own groups. 665 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: And these guys were not saying anything like that, and 666 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: they were really kind of skittish, and I was like, 667 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: we have undercover Nazis here, look at this um And 668 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: after I saw that, I started seeing them everywhere and 669 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: uh later when we got out from dinner, that's what 670 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: we That guy in the red jacket and his friend 671 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: were the ones that were being surrounded by a crowd 672 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: of Black Lives Matter protesters. So can you describe the 673 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: experience that we had going to dinner and then after dinner, yes, 674 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: so we walked out of older bit Girl. We figured 675 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: this ship was over by then, so we we we 676 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: did our marching, we did our yelling. The Nazis left 677 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: and we started raining. We ate some enchiladas when we 678 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: got drunk. So we come out and uh and we 679 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: see that up the street there's this crowd and it's 680 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: mostly people of color and they're angry and um. In 681 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: our morning recording, Matt talked about the flag of Kikistan, Kikistan, 682 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: So for people who are for thank you for doing 683 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: the reggaet morning, for people who are, for whatever reason 684 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: turning into the second part of our episode and have 685 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: not listened to the first. The Kikistan flag is the 686 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: flag of a bunch of Nazi nerd gamers based on 687 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: like keck, which is essentially how Korean say l O 688 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: L and like. They made this flag for their fake 689 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: country of people who were putting out memes for the lulls. 690 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: And the flag is based off of the Kriegsmrine flag 691 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: from World War two, so it's based off of a 692 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: Nazi flag, the German navy flag from World War two. 693 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: It's a Nazi they love the flag that's inverted in 694 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: inverted colors, right, essentially that and the Nazis love this 695 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: is why they do fourteen eighty eight, which is where 696 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: like the fourteen words and eight eight is like Hitler 697 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: h is the eighth letter of the words or a 698 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 1: letter of the alphabet, So Kyle Hitler is eight because 699 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: it's like if you took a swastika and like filled 700 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: in the spaces, it's like a digital eight eight. And 701 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: they're literally that lame. I'd heard a totally different thing 702 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: because it was Hyo Hitler And honestly, yeah, yeah, So 703 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: we saw the Kikistan flag and we walk up and 704 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: we see that there's a bunch of people who are 705 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: really agitated and there's a double line of cops between 706 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: them and these two guys, and we asked what's going on, 707 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: and these guys are like, oh, whether there's these like 708 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: two low Nazis here and we've got this flag and 709 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: they're just hanging out and all these cops are protecting them, 710 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: and we're angry that the cops are protecting them. Um, 711 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: and some aggressive chance they yeah, so there was some 712 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: aggressive chance. I got started. Um, we're not going to 713 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: name names. Definitely wasn't me. And and by aggressive it 714 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: was we are many, their few, and who do you serve? 715 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: Who do you protect? And in the cars one when 716 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: you first explained that chant, by the way, Nick, you 717 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: you meant that it is sort of like aimed at 718 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: the Nazis. But then I realized as it took off, 719 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, the police think we're talking about 720 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: them and had kind of work for the police. There 721 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: were less police than angry people there, and they got 722 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: they got concerned when that one took off, which is 723 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: be careful what you chant, which is if you're chanting, 724 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: if you're a chanter, if you're chanting, be careful what 725 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: you chant and when you chant it. Although I support 726 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: your chant, by the way. So when this group of 727 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: people started shouting at the cops saying who do you serve? 728 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: Who do you protect, we suddenly realized that on the 729 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: other side of the street there was a whole bunch 730 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: of there were a whole bunch of cop cars pulling 731 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: up in their whole bunch of cops on bikes showing up, 732 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: and they blocked us into a crosswalk area. So on 733 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: one side you had double row cops and then you 734 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: had a bunch of protesters, and then on the other 735 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 1: side of the crosswalk you had a triple and cops 736 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: backed up by like multiple police vehicles. And if you 737 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: haven't been to a protest before, one of the things 738 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: that police will do that is very intelligent strategy. We 739 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: have bicycle cops will use their bicycles to form a 740 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: physical barrier and then stand behind or in front of 741 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: their bicycles, but there will essentially be bicycle wheel to 742 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: bicycle wheel and make a wall of bicycles and then 743 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: stand to hold them up. And it's a very effective 744 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: way of creating a mobile barricade. So they had a 745 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: double row of that plus another row of police behind them, 746 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: plus backup in cars. So it was a very intimidating 747 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: situation and it seemed like kind of over the top 748 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: for two Nazis, given that we were yelling at them 749 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: because of a kick a stand flag, and it was 750 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: just a very tense situation. And these were the guy 751 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: is that i'd recognized room before. Yeah, you nailed it, 752 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: and I figured they were just anti FO people who 753 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: weren't with the main group or whatever, because I'm the bestard. 754 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: One other thing we saw, um it was when we 755 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: were winding down after part one of yelling at Nazis 756 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: when we were thinking about, you know, hey, there are 757 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: five thousand people here. We can we've been doing this 758 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: all day probably a piece. Yeah, and so, and we 759 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,479 Speaker 1: were gathering we were grouping up and what did you drink? 760 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: When we're gathering up, we were trying to find wrong 761 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: because we want to go get our damn drinks. And 762 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: a guy came up to us and said, hey, there's 763 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: two Nazis over there that are like completely unprotected. Um, 764 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: they've got no one, like they're like they're They're just 765 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: there and they're like talking and ship. And the thing 766 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: is at first, okay, I was a marine. I am 767 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: was made to be a hammer. All of my problems 768 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: look like nails. So I'm sitting here like, oh cool, 769 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: where the Nazis. I'd like to go hit some Nazis. 770 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: These guys are unprotected Nazis punched the Nazis And that 771 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: was my initial reaction. And then it was like, um, 772 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: and then I don't remember what some one of my 773 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: compatriots here said something. And then I suddenly realized that 774 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: guy that told us that was probably an agitator and 775 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: he probably wanted us to start it was a provocateur. 776 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: He was this like middle aged white dude who was alone, 777 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: not working with anybody, and he gave us the information 778 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: and disappeared and then he ran and like he was 779 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: probably also a Nazi. And it's hard man. When you 780 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: go to enough events like this, you get very paranoid. 781 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: Because number one, there were a lot of people in 782 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: the crowd with the journal So when when this all 783 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: first started, just to explain to the listener, there was 784 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: we were standing instead of essentially a metro station in DC, 785 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,959 Speaker 1: and the Nazis came out of the metro station and 786 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: there was a line of police protecting their route of march, 787 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: and there were anti fascist activists all around the outside 788 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: of that yelling at these people, and journalists and journalists 789 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: and the among the crowd of journalists there were undercover 790 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 1: police and we knew they were because they had badges 791 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: clipped their belts. So if some of what we have 792 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: said in the last little bit here sounds paranoid, it 793 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: is because if you attend a lot of protests, paranoia 794 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: occurs because things that induce paranoia happen in protests, and 795 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: sometimes you're wrong with your paranoia, but oftentimes you are not. 796 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: Hana was not wrong in her paranoia, and I was 797 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: wrong in my counter and her paranoia. You thank you. 798 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: My paranoia is always right. And you know what else 799 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: is right is the wonderful, wonderful companies that support this 800 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: podcast with their products and or services which we do well. 801 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: Not yet not, although I will say, if there is 802 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: one anti fascist food product made out of corn based 803 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 1: food like substances, it is the Derrito's company and their 804 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: delightful products that is actually food food based. It's synthetic 805 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: food food based. But cheese was consulted for some other 806 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: products endorses and listen to these here ads. So we're back. Um, 807 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: So I want to bring us around two. We have 808 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 1: a big question and try to answer at the end 809 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: of this if it's answerable. But one thing I want 810 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: to get to now is do we think the Nazis 811 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: won or lost in this rally? And obviously they were outnumbered. 812 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 1: I do want to read a couple of of tweets 813 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: Jason Kessler put up in the immediate aftermath of this, 814 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: because those are pertinent where they treated from inside of 815 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: bush he was hiding in no the metrocar that he 816 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: was protected in. He was hiding in a bush at 817 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: sometimes about something. Really. Yeah, I was flying around Twitter. 818 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 1: Someone was like that was that was the last year 819 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: rally was like spy, he was like spicy. He came 820 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: out of the bush. Yeah, just Homer faded in. I 821 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: think the overall, I mean, I'm sure that tweets will 822 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:07,800 Speaker 1: shed some light on how they think they did, but 823 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,839 Speaker 1: I think they lost. And the reason I think they 824 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: lost is that they were very clearly intimidated there. They 825 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 1: looked stupid, they looked pathetic. They didn't get to get 826 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: in any of these altercations, they didn't get to feel 827 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: like victims, but they very clearly piste off d C, 828 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: and d C showed up in fucking force. Fuck the 829 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter flag came onto the field that something 830 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: at one point and people start chanting black Lives Matter, 831 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,399 Speaker 1: and then lightning increased the sky. The fucking gods were 832 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: angry at the Nazis. It was such a moment, it 833 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: was so perfect. I was like, Okay, I don't know 834 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: if everyone here and that happened, I'd be like, or 835 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: I'm going home now and I'm gonna hide. Oh. The 836 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter flag was heralded by lightning in thunder. 837 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm going home. What kinda forever? So here's what Jason 838 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,280 Speaker 1: Kessler tweeted, thank you to all of the law enforcement 839 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: officers that protected free speech and public safety today at 840 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: hashtag ut R too. The whole thing has been a 841 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 1: logistical challenge from how but we proved we could do 842 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: it peacefully despite all the naysayers. Another a couple of 843 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: other posts. One of them is a thing he retweeted 844 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: from an activist named Hannah and Nattinson, who was I 845 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: think one of the white nationalist protesters here to women, 846 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: Yeah a lady. Yeah, people should be talking about how 847 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: white women are really doing their part to uphold this 848 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,959 Speaker 1: non They sure are. They're not. They're not falling down 849 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: in the racism fascism supporting department. Can I just take 850 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,239 Speaker 1: a second here, as a white woman to other white 851 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: women who are listening to this. We're all racist and 852 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: we have to do the fucking work to overcome that 853 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: because it has been bred into us and into our socialization, 854 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 1: and we are complicent. It's the exact same thing that 855 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: likes at all. Two men, just that you don't get 856 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: to do this, not wo man, bullshit don't give me that, 857 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,280 Speaker 1: so I should say here I was wrong. Hanna Natanson 858 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: is apparently a reporter, apparently with the Washington Post. Well, 859 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: here's what she tweeted. So here I'm going to read 860 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:23,719 Speaker 1: out what she tweeted. I'm the one responsible. By the way, 861 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: none of you did anything wrong because I gave you 862 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: all bad information because we're drinking. We're we're drinking, and 863 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: we're kind of but here's what it's still relevant. Well, 864 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 1: and here's your tweet, so we can we can comment 865 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: after we read. I read this tweet encircled by reporters. 866 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: Kessler says he is not a white supremacist, but a 867 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 1: quote civil rights advocate for white people. He said white 868 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: Americans are unfairly discriminated against, pointing in part to the 869 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 1: removal of Alex Jones from social media sites. So so 870 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,719 Speaker 1: then why doesn't the a c O. You hire him? 871 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: I want questions, No, no, ask him. It's very straus 872 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,919 Speaker 1: to me that at that as a white, straight, sis 873 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: gender able bodied male, he feels so oppressed, and that 874 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 1: the thing that he points to towards like the root 875 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: of his oppression is oh Alex Jones personal He was 876 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: not kicked off Twitter, right, Like he was still on Twitter. 877 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: Am I crazy social media? So he was from some 878 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: but not Twitter. It was everybody but Twitter, right. Yeah, 879 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: he took some of the ship down after everybody yelled, 880 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: and he was sort of kind of without any sort 881 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 1: of deniability, urging that people harassed the family members of 882 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: children who were murdered during that. So that's all he 883 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,800 Speaker 1: was just he was just harassing the family murdered children. 884 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,280 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook, Oh, well, that's exactly all all that Alex 885 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 1: Jones was guilty of was urging. Was was was saying 886 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 1: that the family members of small children who were murdered 887 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: by a mass shooter were part of a false flag 888 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: operation and urging his follower is to harass them. But 889 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: so I think I don't think anyone listening to this 890 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: podcast about terrible people in history is going to be 891 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,440 Speaker 1: on the side of Alex Jones, so we shouldn't belabor 892 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: the point. I do want to talk about this person's 893 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,320 Speaker 1: report if I just find it curious that like that 894 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,840 Speaker 1: is the evidence. It's like what people are repressed with evidence. 895 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: Alex Stones, does she give a follow up tweet? I'm 896 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: looking for that right now. I would like to read 897 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: her Washington Post, Violine past tomorrow about this, Okay, Yeah, 898 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: let's keep it on. Those mentions be real interesting. I 899 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: heard you say munchies, and then I realized you meant mentioned. Yeah. 900 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: She had some other stuff that was fair ish, like 901 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: where she said, like the United the Right marches of 902 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,640 Speaker 1: all left town. This is earlier in the day. They're 903 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 1: always supposed to begin at five thirty. Well in DC, 904 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 1: tony marchers listened to a brief Kessler speech and talk 905 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 1: to reporters. One man told me the Washington Post is 906 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: Jewish owned and it doesn't speak to Jews before he 907 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: walked away. So she did. She did note that I 908 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 1: don't know part of this maybe the fact that Twitter 909 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,360 Speaker 1: is a good way to spread links to new stories, 910 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: but not a good way to do journalism, And so 911 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: her quote out of context isn't great. It's really really 912 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,399 Speaker 1: hard to do reporting on the ground and keep track 913 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,879 Speaker 1: of everything and tweet about it at the same time. 914 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: And so I'm sure there's a lot missing. I guess 915 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 1: I can give or you can kind of give her 916 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I 917 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: don't want to be mean to Hannah because I don't 918 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 1: know this lady and maybe maybe she's a fair mind, 919 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: and maybe what kind of situation was enough? This is 920 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: I did. I did? That was unfair. I want to 921 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: see her piece tomorrow and see what she actually says 922 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 1: in her report insinuation with drawn. Yeah. But Kessler retweeted that, 923 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 1: and then later he retweeted another post from UTR hurricoine 924 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 1: hurricane hashtag white civilization something or other, white civil rights. 925 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: They resemble a hurricane. Uh, it looks like a picture 926 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,800 Speaker 1: of a young lady. Hurricanes are darksome. So this is 927 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,680 Speaker 1: your This is your young lady who seems to be 928 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: supporting Jason Kessler, who was marching with him today. One 929 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,359 Speaker 1: of the women who was marching with him days who said, 930 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: we just destroyed three large pizzas in the motor But 931 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: before I pass out, I want to say this. I 932 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 1: feel vindicated. I was called every nasty name in the 933 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 1: book for believing in the hashtag white Civil Rights Rally 934 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: and the DC Police Department in Jason Kessler and peaceful 935 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,879 Speaker 1: free speech. Good night, Okay. I want to say something 936 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,200 Speaker 1: on that point. Um. The idea that if you are 937 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: opposed by people, then you're doing the right thing is 938 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: really pervasive in in particular in conservative evangelical circles. And 939 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: I don't can speak for the al right, um, but 940 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot of overlap where this 941 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: there's this idea of well, like Jesus was killed in 942 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,800 Speaker 1: the world, and so in the world you have trouble. 943 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: So if you are following Jesus correctly, you will be 944 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: opposed and you will meet a lot of conflict. And 945 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: so that kind of mentality um reinforces the sense of 946 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: moral rightness for these people. It's sort of like, how 947 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: I firmly believe that we should reply these cows with 948 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 1: horses and vice versa, and that that's that that's something 949 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 1: I believe religiously. And the fact that everyone disagrees with me, 950 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,839 Speaker 1: I take is proof that my ideas are righteous and right, 951 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: but may just be proof that I'm a crazy person. 952 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,440 Speaker 1: Secret it's not a non secretor it's a horse and 953 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: it should be what we make hamburgers out of. Can 954 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,399 Speaker 1: I ask a question, absolutely, what do you guys feel? 955 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,320 Speaker 1: It's like, so in case people are listening and they're like, 956 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: what's the makeup of the room. You have two black men, 957 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 1: one black woman, a white woman, and a white man. 958 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,360 Speaker 1: What do you guys feel that these are these are 959 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: your fellow white people, Like, how does that feel for 960 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,600 Speaker 1: you guys? Like knowing that, like and they are doing 961 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,080 Speaker 1: this because they are trying to assert like their race 962 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 1: there their superiority, kind of a kind of like on 963 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: your behalf. What does that experience like for you as 964 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,359 Speaker 1: white people? I mean, Hannah, if you want to answer first, 965 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: you're welcome to. I have a think. Okay, So that's 966 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,120 Speaker 1: an interesting question, and I appreciate you asking, very curious. Yeah. 967 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: So on one hand, it's like, you don't represent me, 968 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 1: shut up, And there were science that we saw that 969 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: said that too, right, um. And on the other hand, 970 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,280 Speaker 1: it's I do not believe that guilt is a useful emotion. 971 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: I have been on the receiving end of a lot 972 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 1: of apologies from people who treated me shittily when I 973 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,120 Speaker 1: got divorced or when I was like in the process 974 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: of leaving the cult I grew up in, who have 975 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,719 Speaker 1: now come around and they're like, I'm so sorry I 976 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,719 Speaker 1: was horrible to you. And my perspective on that is 977 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,719 Speaker 1: like that doesn't mean no good. Do better. And so 978 00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: for me as a white person, if I feel guilty, 979 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,759 Speaker 1: I need to relate that experience to how guilt has 980 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,880 Speaker 1: felt when I have received it from people who are 981 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:53,200 Speaker 1: apologetic and feel guilty. And my job is not to 982 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: sit and feel guilty, it's to do better. So I 983 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 1: am going to work on educating myself. It is an ongoing, 984 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: life long task. Every society and every community I've ever 985 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: been a part of was created in some form or 986 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: another on racist beliefs. Homeschooling, Christian evangelicalism, white churches, the college. 987 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: I went to all these places where I had very 988 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: very few people of color on purpose, and so I 989 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,239 Speaker 1: feel like the burden is on me to correct that. 990 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,160 Speaker 1: And I've got a long journey ahead of me. But 991 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,800 Speaker 1: showing up for these kinds of things is part of 992 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,040 Speaker 1: that journey. And I don't want brownie points because I'm 993 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: just now doing the bare minimum that I should have 994 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 1: been doing all along. But it's a long process. So 995 00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,320 Speaker 1: but the whole thing is like, these guys don't represent me, 996 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: and I'm here to tell them that and uh to 997 00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,840 Speaker 1: do my moral duty. And I mean, I'm just like so, 998 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a I'm a big white I very tall, 999 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,920 Speaker 1: very broad, and I'm very white, and I have for 1000 00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,760 Speaker 1: a long time. One of my hobbies was just lying 1001 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,320 Speaker 1: to my friends about things, because when I talk about 1002 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: stuff in a in an authoritative manner, people believe me 1003 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,360 Speaker 1: because I'm a big white guy. And that's just the 1004 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,440 Speaker 1: way our society is set up that if as a 1005 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,800 Speaker 1: big white guy, you sit and you start telling facts 1006 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,560 Speaker 1: or whatever, people will listen to you even if it lies, 1007 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,800 Speaker 1: which is why most of our I don't know, we 1008 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 1: can get into the political into this at some other point, 1009 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: but I have the idea that white people would need 1010 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: a civil rights rally as a white dude is inconceivable 1011 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 1: to me because I have had a lot of difficulties 1012 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,640 Speaker 1: in my life, and I know a lot of other 1013 00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 1: white men who have had a lot of difficulties in life, 1014 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: very tough lifes, very painful life. None of it has 1015 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,839 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that we're white guys, um. 1016 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,319 Speaker 1: And the fact that these people are saying that that's 1017 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,239 Speaker 1: a problem that we have is very frustrating to me. 1018 00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,839 Speaker 1: And it's more frustrating than you talk to men men's 1019 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: rights activists, and I don't know with those people either, 1020 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 1: but there are injustices for men based on women, like 1021 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: the fact that men who have children if they go 1022 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 1: to court with their female child bearing partner or whatever 1023 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,600 Speaker 1: term you choose to use, have more difficulty when in 1024 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,480 Speaker 1: custoy or whatever. There are legitimate legal issues there that 1025 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:23,920 Speaker 1: can be addressed or whatever. But some of the points 1026 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:29,160 Speaker 1: there's a reason that that system privileges the child bearing partners. 1027 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,040 Speaker 1: But yes, but there's a debate to be had there. 1028 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,400 Speaker 1: There there's no rational debate by which you can believe 1029 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: white people, in particularly white men, are disadvantaged in the 1030 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: United States of America because look at this country, like 1031 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 1: walk outside to go on, go on a walk, Like 1032 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: it's very clear in my experience as a human when 1033 00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,120 Speaker 1: the white people are like, yeah, but this isn't a problem. 1034 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,239 Speaker 1: There are more important things to focus on. I'm like, yeah, 1035 00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to ignore you because you're You've always been 1036 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:06,040 Speaker 1: wrong in my experience, because unless you have suffered loss 1037 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: of privilege, you don't have any idea what the other 1038 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,640 Speaker 1: side is experiencing at all. Well, and I'm a I'm 1039 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: a child of Hollywood, like most of the planet are 1040 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,760 Speaker 1: you startlet no, I'm like, I'm a no. I was 1041 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,840 Speaker 1: a kid who was raised by movies, movies and television. 1042 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,440 Speaker 1: Like I'm a child who was raised by films, and 1043 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,840 Speaker 1: one thing American cinema has done is a great job 1044 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,720 Speaker 1: of convincing me that the underdogs are usually the people 1045 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 1: that you should root for, and the underdogs in this 1046 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,160 Speaker 1: society where and are not white guys, like that's for sure, 1047 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 1: not who is being fucked over in this society. That 1048 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:48,920 Speaker 1: goes back to my point with like, who are the 1049 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: cops behaving for? You protect? Who do you protect? Who 1050 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:58,919 Speaker 1: do you serve? They're protecting the white supremacists and they're 1051 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:04,040 Speaker 1: not protecting the people who are against white supremacy, So 1052 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 1: the system is is stacked, It's clear well, and that 1053 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,600 Speaker 1: that brings us back to my initial question, which is 1054 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,440 Speaker 1: not is it right or wrong to punch Nazis, but 1055 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: is it does it bring us closer to our goal 1056 00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,439 Speaker 1: of a society where Nazis have no political power, which 1057 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: is I think most people listening can agree Nazis shouldn't 1058 00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,320 Speaker 1: have any political power, White supremacists should not have any 1059 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: kind of political power. The k occasion on a political power. 1060 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,120 Speaker 1: Does violence to them bring us closer to that goal 1061 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,440 Speaker 1: than peaceful resistance at this point in the debate, And 1062 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,160 Speaker 1: that is the question I want to go around as 1063 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,600 Speaker 1: a roundtable and get people's thoughts on. So why don't 1064 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,919 Speaker 1: we start with you, Bridget the person holding the mic. Yeah, 1065 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm holding the mic. I'm yeah. I my name is Bridget. 1066 00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,120 Speaker 1: I I don't know. I mean it's hard for me. 1067 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: You guys saw me out there. I get emotional, and 1068 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: I think that for me, it's I may intellectually know 1069 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: that punching Nazis and like screaming in their face is 1070 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: not getting us closer to being free, but there's something 1071 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: cathartic about it, and my like primate brain, that's a 1072 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,240 Speaker 1: part of my brain that's just like, yes, hit them, 1073 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,520 Speaker 1: punch them, Like, I'm not concerned about whether or not 1074 00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,520 Speaker 1: it gets us closer to our goal. You know. I'm 1075 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: an organizer, so I think about things in terms of 1076 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,680 Speaker 1: what is our you know, our shared goal. But there 1077 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,840 Speaker 1: is something, there's something, a visceral that happens that almost 1078 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,919 Speaker 1: makes me turn that part of my logical brain off 1079 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,360 Speaker 1: and I'm just like I want him get hit, and 1080 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:46,920 Speaker 1: it's like I become a I become like man. It's 1081 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: like when we were out there, I mean, like you 1082 00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,000 Speaker 1: and I got in that argument with a guy, and 1083 00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,440 Speaker 1: because we show these people the people, y'all listening right now, 1084 00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,400 Speaker 1: and we actually have the audio of like destroying him 1085 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,040 Speaker 1: and want to video. We were we were at this 1086 01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,520 Speaker 1: protest and we were watching these people with the Kaka 1087 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,320 Speaker 1: Stan flag it surrounded And while that was happening, there 1088 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,200 Speaker 1: was an elderly guy who was clearly not from the 1089 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,720 Speaker 1: United States and did not speak English as a first language, 1090 01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,400 Speaker 1: and was like, it's like, to be clear, I'm familiar 1091 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,240 Speaker 1: with him. He's unwell. He's fine, he's a regular regulator 1092 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: and he's mentally unwell. And his his signs were all 1093 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,880 Speaker 1: about circumcision. And there was a young white guy in 1094 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,400 Speaker 1: a three piece suit and a dude filming him interviewing 1095 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,240 Speaker 1: this guy about his sign he got on the urban 1096 01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,200 Speaker 1: fucking copy of a suit I've seen Richard Spencer in. Yeah, 1097 01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,680 Speaker 1: he got it on the discount racket men's warehouse and 1098 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,120 Speaker 1: probably Manifort wishes he had it. Well, if there's no 1099 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,400 Speaker 1: ostrich in that fucking So this this this young dude 1100 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: was like talking to this guy who was a little 1101 01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,480 Speaker 1: bit off about his circumcision based sign and around me 1102 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,960 Speaker 1: there was a focused around racial justice and it seemed 1103 01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,880 Speaker 1: like it was very clearly this guy and his friend 1104 01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,320 Speaker 1: came out to the protest and tried to film the 1105 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,120 Speaker 1: few crazy signs they could find so that they could 1106 01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 1: make fun of the whole protest by pointing out like 1107 01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,280 Speaker 1: and they supplicedly said that suplicitly said we're going to 1108 01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,160 Speaker 1: have a little fun. Yeah, they said we're here to 1109 01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:21,360 Speaker 1: have a little fun. Who Yeah, he had a very 1110 01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,240 Speaker 1: smoot sign. Video evidence on Twitter. I recorded it. It's there. 1111 01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: It's frustrating, We'll link it. So he both Bridget and 1112 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,400 Speaker 1: I wound up confronting this guy at varying points because 1113 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,560 Speaker 1: he just was clearly up to no good, and she 1114 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,120 Speaker 1: got very heated, which was understandable in the moment. So 1115 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,720 Speaker 1: that's I think, what was the lead into what you Yeah, 1116 01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,280 Speaker 1: so I got I got heated, And I think for me, 1117 01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, I was born in d C. This is 1118 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,040 Speaker 1: I've lived in DC for most of my adult life. 1119 01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 1: People come here for protests and I think it's, you know, 1120 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:59,720 Speaker 1: a theme park for their cosplay around whatever. This is 1121 01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,440 Speaker 1: my home. I live here, I'm gonna have a kid 1122 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:07,600 Speaker 1: here like this is where I live. Yeah, for me, 1123 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:12,440 Speaker 1: the fact that that guy was targeting somebody that is 1124 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:17,880 Speaker 1: obviously marginalized, obviously unwell, there are a million people to 1125 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: talk to who were out and about it is not 1126 01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,000 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a coincidence that he shows an 1127 01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,360 Speaker 1: older guy who didn't really speak English, a guy who 1128 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,080 Speaker 1: was clearly like he chose a vulnerable DC resident hand. 1129 01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,200 Speaker 1: This guy said he was from Maryland, so he came 1130 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:39,080 Speaker 1: into town quote to have a little fun, but not. 1131 01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:45,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't with a shirtless black Lives Matter big guy. 1132 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,479 Speaker 1: It wasn't with someone who would have gotten in his face. 1133 01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,439 Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting that when you when Matt, 1134 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: when you like talk to him, that's what people call me, Robert. 1135 01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,960 Speaker 1: We're not gonna explain that anymore. Continue, do you guys 1136 01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,560 Speaker 1: do the beeps? We don't. Okay, that's a weird East Coast. Okay, 1137 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: we can really include all this, but I will make 1138 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,520 Speaker 1: fun of y'all. Okay, fine, bee is a thing. I'm sorry. No, 1139 01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,040 Speaker 1: But but Robert, when you when you got in his 1140 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 1: face and you challenged him, I found it really interesting 1141 01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,840 Speaker 1: that when he was talking to like, let's be real, 1142 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,080 Speaker 1: that guy. I know that guy. I feel comfortable saying 1143 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,800 Speaker 1: this because I've seen that guy at every DC protesting. Yeah, 1144 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,120 Speaker 1: the older guy. I feel comfortable saying this. I've seen 1145 01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,800 Speaker 1: him four years. He is Can I just say something like, 1146 01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,120 Speaker 1: I haven't lived in d C in about three years, 1147 01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,040 Speaker 1: and I've seen that guy like he's a fixture, he's around, 1148 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:44,040 Speaker 1: he's fine, but he is clearly meant he's like a vulnerable, 1149 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,880 Speaker 1: vulnerable person like he is under housed, and he is 1150 01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,040 Speaker 1: of all the people to like talk to, Like, no 1151 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:57,160 Speaker 1: good journalist would interview that guy. Journalists three times during 1152 01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,800 Speaker 1: this protest. Good they should be not pletely sure why me, 1153 01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,760 Speaker 1: but okay, but they talked to you and you're wearing 1154 01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,640 Speaker 1: the shirt you're to look you have a look that 1155 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,200 Speaker 1: like you look like a veteran and you're wearing a 1156 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:12,200 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter shirt. So they can't even talk to 1157 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,000 Speaker 1: me three separate times. And none of that looked at 1158 01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,440 Speaker 1: all like what was happening with this fu? No, that 1159 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,160 Speaker 1: was that was bullying, Like what what we were with 1160 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,040 Speaker 1: the saying was who is someone who is vulnerable? Who 1161 01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,440 Speaker 1: is someone that will not have the ability to best 1162 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,400 Speaker 1: me that I can make look coolish? And I walked 1163 01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:34,400 Speaker 1: to journalists all the time and they're always so respectful, 1164 01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:39,480 Speaker 1: so thoughtful, so informed, so like open to where I'm 1165 01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,200 Speaker 1: coming from and this guy was playing the I'm going 1166 01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,560 Speaker 1: to get your game, and exactly, as a journalist who 1167 01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,720 Speaker 1: has covered a lot of civil unrest in his career, 1168 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,760 Speaker 1: you don't talk to the cooks because they don't they're 1169 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,400 Speaker 1: not representative, they don't teach you anything. So I mean 1170 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,040 Speaker 1: this feeds into the point there's real ship going on here, 1171 01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,240 Speaker 1: and some motherfucker from his fucking Maryland college showing up 1172 01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:02,200 Speaker 1: in a goddamn suit to make a nutty old guy 1173 01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,840 Speaker 1: who is harmless look like a spokesperson for this rally 1174 01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,680 Speaker 1: against people who are out and proud members of the 1175 01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:13,560 Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan is infuriating. It was when we were 1176 01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,600 Speaker 1: so I completely agree. I think that why I got 1177 01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,320 Speaker 1: so upset was that it was someone that was marginalized 1178 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,400 Speaker 1: and vulnerable, and that like he was clearly, of all 1179 01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,880 Speaker 1: the people to talk to, he didn't talk to any 1180 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,880 Speaker 1: of the like black dudes, Latino dudes without shirts screaming. 1181 01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: He could way too scared to anyone who was not 1182 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,800 Speaker 1: as white as him. Exactly as soon as I got 1183 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:38,960 Speaker 1: in his face with camera, like you could watch his 1184 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:44,160 Speaker 1: body language, he like, he like would start stuttering, and 1185 01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,480 Speaker 1: his friend with the camera put his camera down as 1186 01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:48,600 Speaker 1: soon as we started talking, which is exactly how you 1187 01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,479 Speaker 1: know that he's a sucking charlatan. And so I guess 1188 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:57,800 Speaker 1: for me, you know, it's hard because this is my community, 1189 01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,919 Speaker 1: this is my home, Like this is not a gay 1190 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,960 Speaker 1: aims is not a thing for fun, Like this is 1191 01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,200 Speaker 1: where I live. The guy that he was, you know, targeting, 1192 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,600 Speaker 1: that's sort of like, like I hate to say, he's 1193 01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,800 Speaker 1: like Mike Kok like He's like like, yes, he he's 1194 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:18,160 Speaker 1: in my community. And I agree with you that in 1195 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,200 Speaker 1: terms of is it okay with punch Nazis, it's probably 1196 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,880 Speaker 1: more effective in terms of a more effective theory of 1197 01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,000 Speaker 1: change around how we deal with Nazis to reason with them, 1198 01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,520 Speaker 1: not punch them. But in that moment, I was like, 1199 01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:33,440 Speaker 1: I was like, where is the person that's just like 1200 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm ending this with a fucking fist, Like I didn't 1201 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,640 Speaker 1: want to hit him. Yeah I didn't. I didn't. Here's 1202 01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:42,760 Speaker 1: the other thing that was really interesting about this conversation. 1203 01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,880 Speaker 1: He did. He was just like, you know how some 1204 01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,360 Speaker 1: people are just begging for a punch to the face. 1205 01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:54,720 Speaker 1: There's a German word for that, what is it? But 1206 01:06:55,680 --> 01:07:00,560 Speaker 1: he was he was hella backs something like we've all 1207 01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:05,680 Speaker 1: been homie was homie was hella b The exact translation 1208 01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:07,920 Speaker 1: of the German word is a face in need of 1209 01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:13,720 Speaker 1: a fist. Here's the other thing that's really interesting for 1210 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:19,800 Speaker 1: this whole experience is when we when Matt started shaming 1211 01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,320 Speaker 1: him for his tactics as like this is not professional, 1212 01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,360 Speaker 1: no journalists would do this those kinds of things. He 1213 01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,560 Speaker 1: would duck his shoulders and cross his hands over his 1214 01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:35,440 Speaker 1: crotch and looked down, and he he assumed the physical 1215 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,680 Speaker 1: posture of shame. And so I started in the Peace 1216 01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:44,320 Speaker 1: Corps in Kyrgyzstan, and Um, the Peace Corp volunteers I 1217 01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:48,400 Speaker 1: know would colloquially call this an AJ shame circle, where 1218 01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,840 Speaker 1: like the older women who would be referred to as 1219 01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:54,280 Speaker 1: a JS would um. If a student had been acting 1220 01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 1: out for a long long time at school and was 1221 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:03,360 Speaker 1: like just zilient against correction, they would bring him into 1222 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,720 Speaker 1: the school, They bring his parents in with him, and 1223 01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,360 Speaker 1: then all the teachers would just like shame him in 1224 01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:13,640 Speaker 1: front of his family to make him realize this constant 1225 01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:17,160 Speaker 1: like the severity of his behavior and how it was 1226 01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,200 Speaker 1: affecting the community, and how it was This is this 1227 01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,559 Speaker 1: is reflecting on your parents. This is reflecting on your school, 1228 01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,320 Speaker 1: this is reflecting on your classmates. This behavior does not 1229 01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:32,920 Speaker 1: belong here. And because of that, like ingrained tactic as 1230 01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,760 Speaker 1: a woman there, if I had a man harassing me, 1231 01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:42,200 Speaker 1: I could go to him and say, Hey, where's your shame? 1232 01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:45,680 Speaker 1: Why are you talking to me like that? Do you 1233 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,160 Speaker 1: want me to tell your mother? I'm a teacher, I'm 1234 01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:52,479 Speaker 1: respected in this community, and I'm working for free and 1235 01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:56,040 Speaker 1: you're talking to me like that, and he would immediately 1236 01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,679 Speaker 1: stand down. I don't have that kind of power in America. 1237 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,599 Speaker 1: Coming back to these states, I feel less safe because 1238 01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,759 Speaker 1: I have no social power to pull shame on someone 1239 01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,040 Speaker 1: who is acting out like that. And so I think 1240 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,760 Speaker 1: with the nutzis in this situation, we need to find 1241 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:18,360 Speaker 1: that shame trigger. I think that shame is more powerful 1242 01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:22,360 Speaker 1: then punching them. I think we need to find the 1243 01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:26,400 Speaker 1: moment where they like their line is, whatever that far 1244 01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,080 Speaker 1: out moral line is, and we need to call them 1245 01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:35,919 Speaker 1: on the spot and make them feel ashamed of themselves. 1246 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,320 Speaker 1: I think you did that when you told him no 1247 01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,960 Speaker 1: journalist would do this. I think that he felt shame. 1248 01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:49,280 Speaker 1: I am a white male journalist, another clearly intelligent white 1249 01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:52,800 Speaker 1: male journalist is telling me, Homie, I'm ashamed of you 1250 01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:55,559 Speaker 1: right now. I think that what you said to him 1251 01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,240 Speaker 1: cut him deeper than anything that I, as a black woman, 1252 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,920 Speaker 1: could ever that something about you, the way that you 1253 01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,160 Speaker 1: appealed to him, I feel like, cut him so deep 1254 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:08,160 Speaker 1: because he abuse you as a person whose opinions matter, 1255 01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:10,479 Speaker 1: and so so Mike. So I guess I'm gonna roll 1256 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,559 Speaker 1: off of what both of you said because I agree 1257 01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,880 Speaker 1: with both of you, and I guess my thesis on 1258 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:19,439 Speaker 1: should we punched Nazis is I, in my position, as 1259 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,760 Speaker 1: someone who sees Nazis as an existential fucking threat and 1260 01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,360 Speaker 1: everyone who supports him as an existential threat to me 1261 01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:29,720 Speaker 1: and mine, I will always punch Nazis. I think they 1262 01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:35,040 Speaker 1: must be destroyed. I think that perhaps getting rid of 1263 01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,080 Speaker 1: them in a way that doesn't involve me punching, and 1264 01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,840 Speaker 1: then later, if things go real bad, doing further than 1265 01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,120 Speaker 1: punching Nazis would be better for the world. I think 1266 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:45,720 Speaker 1: that a war with Nazis is going to results in 1267 01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:47,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people getting hurt, and I don't want 1268 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:48,840 Speaker 1: people to get hurt. But I have no power to 1269 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,120 Speaker 1: make that happen because they don't see me as a person, 1270 01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:53,920 Speaker 1: I can talk at them all day and nothing I 1271 01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,240 Speaker 1: do will change anything they believe. It won't make them 1272 01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:59,360 Speaker 1: be any less dangerous to me. So if I'm in 1273 01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,679 Speaker 1: a situation and Ryan face to face with a Nazi, 1274 01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,880 Speaker 1: I cannot guarantee that he will walk away with an 1275 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,280 Speaker 1: intact face. But of what we don't But if we 1276 01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:12,640 Speaker 1: don't want to punch Nazis, if as a society we 1277 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:14,760 Speaker 1: want the Nazis to not get punched, we want them 1278 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:19,640 Speaker 1: to disappear, it's not on black people. White people need 1279 01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,840 Speaker 1: to shame Nazis. And the thing is, it's starting, it's 1280 01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:24,880 Speaker 1: kind of starting. I think they're starting. Part of the 1281 01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,600 Speaker 1: reason there weren't a thousand Nazis here is that for 1282 01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,439 Speaker 1: the last year, anytime one of these dumb fuckers you know, 1283 01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,880 Speaker 1: stands up and it starts yelling racial slurs at someone, 1284 01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,600 Speaker 1: We've all got real good cameras in our pockets, and 1285 01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,679 Speaker 1: people are like, hey, I'm gonna videotape this guy screaming 1286 01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:40,479 Speaker 1: at someone because they're wearing a Porto Rico shirt and 1287 01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:45,600 Speaker 1: their life gets dismantled. So keep doing that, ruined Like 1288 01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:48,680 Speaker 1: it's like when one of your siblings act out and 1289 01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:50,479 Speaker 1: everybody kind of looks at you at the party and 1290 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,040 Speaker 1: they're like, like, go get your kids, get your get 1291 01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:58,840 Speaker 1: your own white people, deal with your own. And that's 1292 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,400 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. Those are all 1293 01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,519 Speaker 1: really good points. And I think that that's as the 1294 01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:15,800 Speaker 1: whitest man who's ever lived as a very white man, 1295 01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,400 Speaker 1: we it is. It is incumbent upawn. One of the 1296 01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,760 Speaker 1: reasons might hear of this protest is that British guy 1297 01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,000 Speaker 1: who just tried to leap over the cops to punch 1298 01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:29,519 Speaker 1: a Nazi because he because there's nothing whiter than the British. 1299 01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:36,400 Speaker 1: Like they're they're clear, they are a window. Um. It is. 1300 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,840 Speaker 1: It is incumbent upon us to stand up and like 1301 01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:46,599 Speaker 1: confront these people because it shouldn't get to punching. They 1302 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:48,679 Speaker 1: should be And that's part of the problem. These people 1303 01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,320 Speaker 1: existed everyone. None of these people were not Nazis before 1304 01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,160 Speaker 1: Donald Trump won the election, but the election made them 1305 01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,760 Speaker 1: think that they could get away with being open about 1306 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,960 Speaker 1: what they were, and nobody, nobody in their communities called 1307 01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,240 Speaker 1: them on it. No one in their families has pulled 1308 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,400 Speaker 1: them aside and said, honey, we're gonna take you to 1309 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:11,880 Speaker 1: the hospital because this is a fucking problem. We're cutting 1310 01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,400 Speaker 1: off your trust fund because you're bringing a shame upon 1311 01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:16,439 Speaker 1: which is how Richard Spencer does this ship. But like 1312 01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 1: it's make racist to freight again is a great slogan, 1313 01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,760 Speaker 1: but it doesn't mean beating up racists. I mean that 1314 01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,960 Speaker 1: might be what it gets to if ship descends enough, 1315 01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,839 Speaker 1: but it starts with just making them scared to be racist. 1316 01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:31,080 Speaker 1: You can't cure them, it is not. It's no one's job. 1317 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,280 Speaker 1: No matter how much white you are, it is no 1318 01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,760 Speaker 1: one's job to cure racists. You can't. You can't cure 1319 01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,320 Speaker 1: anyone of anything. But is your job to make them 1320 01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,680 Speaker 1: feel bad about it, drive them underground. And I do 1321 01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:44,840 Speaker 1: think we have not gotten to Lauren yet. So I 1322 01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:48,400 Speaker 1: do want to ask Luran sile question, is it better 1323 01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,680 Speaker 1: to hit Nazis or to shame? Is it more effective 1324 01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:56,559 Speaker 1: as a tactic to hit Nazis er to shame them? Okay, well, Ben, 1325 01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:02,360 Speaker 1: this is my first oh watching from the test. Uh, 1326 01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:04,560 Speaker 1: I went through As I said, I went through a 1327 01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:08,040 Speaker 1: variety of emotions. So when I first started at the 1328 01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:10,719 Speaker 1: train station, by the time we got to the site, 1329 01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:14,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to probably harm every last one of them. 1330 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,640 Speaker 1: But as I sat there and I watched and and 1331 01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,400 Speaker 1: and and actually started to observe what was going on 1332 01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:26,400 Speaker 1: from the complete full circle, I came to a realization 1333 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:29,400 Speaker 1: by the end of it, that is the payback or 1334 01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,559 Speaker 1: whatever I was saying, it's really not my fight. It's 1335 01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,360 Speaker 1: my fight when I'm confronted with with them, you know. 1336 01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:38,360 Speaker 1: Then it's my fight. When it's me and nazieing, you know, 1337 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,439 Speaker 1: in an allele, you know, in a in a store, 1338 01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, anywhere else, anywhere on the streets, in a uniform, 1339 01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's my fight. Name then I will punch 1340 01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:52,320 Speaker 1: a knots, you know. But as far as a worldwide 1341 01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 1: uh maybe not cure, but um remedy for now is 1342 01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,320 Speaker 1: that you have to white people have made other white 1343 01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,400 Speaker 1: people feel guilty about it, and that's the only way 1344 01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:07,160 Speaker 1: we can't there's nothing we can do. We can support 1345 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:09,320 Speaker 1: and give you examples of how he feels, so you 1346 01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:11,479 Speaker 1: can go fullard with how we feel about it. But 1347 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,280 Speaker 1: it's really I think that was the biggest take away 1348 01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm taken from this to day. I was seeing everybody 1349 01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:20,280 Speaker 1: else kind of take the staying and say, well we 1350 01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,080 Speaker 1: got this, you don't say, And I was able to 1351 01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:26,479 Speaker 1: say a bay right now is to survive. Yeah, and 1352 01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:30,080 Speaker 1: just just as it's gonna take men starving the roots 1353 01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:34,160 Speaker 1: of the patriarchy to destroy it, because it grows from us, 1354 01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,559 Speaker 1: you know. It's the thing that like, thank you, queer 1355 01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:39,160 Speaker 1: I for all the work that you've done for that 1356 01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:44,120 Speaker 1: this year. There's a phrase that I may have heard it. 1357 01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if maybe it's something that I popped 1358 01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:47,680 Speaker 1: into my head, or maybe it's something something said. It's 1359 01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:52,519 Speaker 1: probably something someone said was, um, it's when I'm talking 1360 01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:57,479 Speaker 1: to other men about this about male bullshit, and when 1361 01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:00,400 Speaker 1: I'm talking to white people about white people bullshit. The 1362 01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:01,720 Speaker 1: thing that I try to say because you know, like 1363 01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,479 Speaker 1: people always want to respond with the And I heard 1364 01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:06,320 Speaker 1: it at the protests, like because I we said something 1365 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:08,280 Speaker 1: about cops never being on our side, and this one 1366 01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,360 Speaker 1: was like, well, I'm a cop. I'm here. I'm like, 1367 01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:12,439 Speaker 1: I don't give a ship the cops on on my side. 1368 01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:15,240 Speaker 1: And at some point she even said not all white people. 1369 01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:17,800 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not here to deal with you. 1370 01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:20,680 Speaker 1: But but the thing that I want to say to 1371 01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:26,880 Speaker 1: those people is listen, I'm aware that, like the patriarchy 1372 01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,560 Speaker 1: isn't my fault or your fault or your fault. I 1373 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,160 Speaker 1: didn't make the patriarchy, was born into it. And I 1374 01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:36,719 Speaker 1: am aware that white supremacy isn't your fault or your fault. 1375 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,600 Speaker 1: You didn't make white supremacy. You were born into it. 1376 01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:43,960 Speaker 1: But it's your fucking responsibility, and it's my fucking responsibility. 1377 01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:48,120 Speaker 1: The patriarchy won't disappear without men being like, hey, we're 1378 01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:50,160 Speaker 1: in a We're in our fucking, you know, locker room, 1379 01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,400 Speaker 1: and some guy talks about starts talking about the ship 1380 01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,120 Speaker 1: that people call locker room talking. We're like, shut the 1381 01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,000 Speaker 1: funk up, Like they won't go away until men are like, 1382 01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:01,519 Speaker 1: you don't get to be among us unless you stop 1383 01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,080 Speaker 1: this ship. And it's the same thing with white people. 1384 01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:09,400 Speaker 1: That's a really good analysis. Racism gets killed by white supremacy, 1385 01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,720 Speaker 1: will die when white people stop feeding it. And I 1386 01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,320 Speaker 1: think that's the point we want to end on, because 1387 01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:16,840 Speaker 1: I can't think of a better line to end it on, 1388 01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,479 Speaker 1: and I think everyone for joining, and I will now 1389 01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:22,280 Speaker 1: selfishly note that our website is behind the Bastards dot 1390 01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:25,559 Speaker 1: com and our Instagram and Twitter is at Bastards Pod. 1391 01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,240 Speaker 1: I can't think of anything else to in this on 1392 01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,720 Speaker 1: so I will just say, buy a bag of Dorito's 1393 01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:35,759 Speaker 1: and watch Downfall, the movie where Hitler dies in a bunker. 1394 01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:41,479 Speaker 1: Just do that, and also read some books. Whatever, Go 1395 01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:46,920 Speaker 1: and educate yourself by material by black authors. Go read 1396 01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,519 Speaker 1: so you want to talk about race, go read read 1397 01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:55,040 Speaker 1: The Invention of the White Race. It's a long, dense read, 1398 01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:57,120 Speaker 1: but give it, give it away, and like read some 1399 01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:01,599 Speaker 1: bell hooks and like yeah, like like also like I'm 1400 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,160 Speaker 1: gonna put this is bridget I'm just gonna put a 1401 01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,800 Speaker 1: little plug in, like, don't put that ship on black women, Like, 1402 01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:13,040 Speaker 1: go on the internet, read books, you know, don't expect 1403 01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,280 Speaker 1: like white people have to dismantle this ship and figure 1404 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:19,240 Speaker 1: this out, talk to your cousins whatever, whatever it takes. 1405 01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:23,600 Speaker 1: It isn't our job. And like, don't put ship on 1406 01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:26,560 Speaker 1: people of color who already are just like trying to 1407 01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:30,840 Speaker 1: fucking survived, as you said, or at the very minimum, 1408 01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:37,639 Speaker 1: pay them, yes, pay them. What's your snapping because Hannah 1409 01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:43,639 Speaker 1: just said something very real. Well, I'm actually fine somebody 1410 01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:47,400 Speaker 1: who like PayPal, somebody who needs the fucking money, because 1411 01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,559 Speaker 1: I guarantee you there is a woman, probably a woman 1412 01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:55,360 Speaker 1: of color out there who is teaching learning like shepherding 1413 01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:58,880 Speaker 1: people into the you know, the righteous, the righteous path, 1414 01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:01,880 Speaker 1: and she probably use a little bit of a papal blessing. 1415 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,840 Speaker 1: And I'll just say, if you, if you're a white woman, 1416 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:10,040 Speaker 1: you're curious about this coming from a evangelical conservative perspective 1417 01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:14,240 Speaker 1: of unlearning your internalized racism, I'd like to recommend the 1418 01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:16,920 Speaker 1: work of Carris Adele, who is a student at the 1419 01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:19,920 Speaker 1: UVA right now, and she's on Twitter under that name, 1420 01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,040 Speaker 1: and she tweets a lot about the stuff that she's 1421 01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:26,240 Speaker 1: read and the experiences that she's gone through and educating 1422 01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:29,439 Speaker 1: herself on this, and it's been really quality stuff. So 1423 01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,840 Speaker 1: read up, do some reading, get out in the streets 1424 01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,840 Speaker 1: when you can do some activism, uh, support the things 1425 01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:40,160 Speaker 1: that you can support, and and stay at a reasonable 1426 01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:43,519 Speaker 1: lay level of anger to be productive. And when you're 1427 01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:45,880 Speaker 1: too tired for all of that, and when it's just 1428 01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:48,720 Speaker 1: time to take a break, buy a beeg, cool ranch 1429 01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:54,519 Speaker 1: to Rito's and just just have a nice, a nice 1430 01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:57,120 Speaker 1: little chill session. And this has been behind the bastards 1431 01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:00,160 Speaker 1: and I've been Robert Evans and I love a out 1432 01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:10,640 Speaker 1: of you. H m hm