WEBVTT - Turning Solar Energy Into Fuel (The Solar Era, Part 3) 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.836 Pushkin. 0:00:20.716 --> 0:00:27.716 Our civilization is built on hydrocarbons. Oil and natural gas 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:31.076 and coal light up our houses and keep us warm 0:00:31.076 --> 0:00:34.356 in the winter, and propel our cars and our ships 0:00:34.356 --> 0:00:37.876 and our planes. They provide the heat companies need to 0:00:37.956 --> 0:00:41.956 make stuff. Hydrocarbons even provide the hydrogen to make the 0:00:41.996 --> 0:00:46.836 fertilizer to grow our food. The problem with hydrocarbons, of course, 0:00:47.356 --> 0:00:50.196 is the carbon it binds with oxygen, goes into the 0:00:50.236 --> 0:00:54.196 atmosphere and warms the earth. So humanity is in the 0:00:54.236 --> 0:00:58.116 process of trying to very quickly come up with cheap 0:00:58.156 --> 0:01:02.996 ways to power our civilization without hydrocarbons, and as we've 0:01:02.996 --> 0:01:05.156 been discussing on the show for the past few weeks, 0:01:05.436 --> 0:01:10.356 we're actually making progress. Solar energy in particular, has become 0:01:10.516 --> 0:01:13.596 wildly cheap in some parts of the world. In fact, 0:01:13.916 --> 0:01:16.796 it's now free in the middle of sunny days, and 0:01:16.836 --> 0:01:19.236 it's likely that solar energy will be free in the 0:01:19.236 --> 0:01:21.356 middle of the day in much more of the world 0:01:21.436 --> 0:01:24.356 in the next few years. The triumph of solar is 0:01:24.396 --> 0:01:27.356 going to go a long way toward powering our houses 0:01:27.476 --> 0:01:31.196 and factories and cars. But there's a lot that solar 0:01:31.316 --> 0:01:35.276 energy cannot do for reasons of basic physics. It's really 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:38.316 hard to use solar energy or solar energy combined with 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:42.756 batteries to power container ships or commercial planes. It's also 0:01:42.916 --> 0:01:46.516 hard to store large amounts of solar energy for long 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:49.036 periods of time, and it's hard to move it around 0:01:49.076 --> 0:01:52.316 the planet, hard to move it across oceans. So a 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:56.236 lot of people step back and they look at hydrocarbons, 0:01:56.436 --> 0:01:59.196 at fossil fuels, and they say, you know, most of 0:01:59.236 --> 0:02:03.836 the energy in hydrocarbons comes from the hydropart, the hydrogen. 0:02:04.796 --> 0:02:08.916 What if we could make clean fuel that was like hydrocarbons, 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:11.916 but without the carbon. What if we could take that 0:02:12.156 --> 0:02:17.396 cheap abundant solar energy and use it to make pure hydrogen. 0:02:18.116 --> 0:02:20.396 That would be a huge step forward in figuring out 0:02:20.436 --> 0:02:30.316 how to live without hydrocarbons. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this 0:02:30.396 --> 0:02:33.436 is what's your problem. This is the third of three 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:37.036 shows we're doing about the triumph of solar energy, about 0:02:37.076 --> 0:02:40.556 how solar became so cheap and what cheap abundant solar 0:02:40.636 --> 0:02:43.636 energy is going to mean for the world. My guest 0:02:43.676 --> 0:02:48.556 today is Rafi Garabedian. Rafi was previously the chief technology 0:02:48.556 --> 0:02:51.756 officer at First Solar, a company that makes solar panels. 0:02:52.316 --> 0:02:56.596 Now he is the co founder and CEO of Electric Hydrogen, 0:02:57.036 --> 0:02:59.876 a company that has raised hundreds of millions of dollars 0:03:00.196 --> 0:03:03.596 in its quest to solve a big problem. How do 0:03:03.636 --> 0:03:07.076 you use intermittent solar and wind power to make hydrogen? 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:10.676 And crucially, how do you do it cheaply enough to 0:03:10.756 --> 0:03:13.196 make that hydrogen economically viable? 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:17.556 So you can take this free solar and wind that's 0:03:17.636 --> 0:03:20.476 available when no one needs it, you can convert it 0:03:20.516 --> 0:03:24.636 to hydrogen and use that hydrogen to make things like 0:03:25.116 --> 0:03:31.516 steel and fertilizer and fuels. 0:03:32.596 --> 0:03:35.516 And the fuels if I understand correctly, I mean when 0:03:35.596 --> 0:03:39.956 you burn hydrogen, it just makes water, right, Like that's 0:03:39.996 --> 0:03:41.036 part of the genus. 0:03:41.876 --> 0:03:44.236 Yeah, when you burn hydrogen, it just makes water. It's 0:03:44.236 --> 0:03:47.236 super simple, right. It generates heat like any other fuel, 0:03:47.316 --> 0:03:49.636 and you can use that in an engine or a 0:03:49.676 --> 0:03:53.716 turbine or whatever. But it emits water instead of CO 0:03:53.956 --> 0:03:56.436 two and water. So that's the beauty of it. But 0:03:56.916 --> 0:04:01.356 the rub is hydrogen by itself is hard to utilize, 0:04:01.556 --> 0:04:05.436 and that's because it's not a liquid, it's a gas, 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:08.636 and it's a gas it's hard to handle because the 0:04:08.676 --> 0:04:14.556 molecule so small and so utilizing hydrogen directly as a 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:20.596 fuel requires a retooling of infrastructure. When I say infrastructure, 0:04:20.676 --> 0:04:25.876 I mean pipelines, shipping, vessels to move the stuff around. 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:29.916 Even the engines and turbines that would burn it are different. 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:35.636 And so hydrogen itself is a fuel is the endgame, 0:04:36.556 --> 0:04:39.236 And I would say it's gonna happen, but it's going 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:42.236 to take a long time to happen because we've spent 0:04:43.196 --> 0:04:51.076 arguably over one hundred years building infrastructure, engines, turbines, pipelines, vessels, 0:04:51.156 --> 0:04:56.676 all that stuff to move and consume hydrocarbons, and we're 0:04:56.676 --> 0:04:58.996 going to have to retool all that stuff to move 0:04:59.036 --> 0:05:02.556 and consume hydrogen as the replacement. 0:05:02.916 --> 0:05:06.276 So if that's the long that's the long game. What's 0:05:06.316 --> 0:05:07.236 the medium game? 0:05:07.636 --> 0:05:10.396 Yeah, that's great quest, So that's the long game. The 0:05:10.436 --> 0:05:14.636 medium game is convert the hydrogen into the molecules we 0:05:14.756 --> 0:05:18.276 already know and love, well kind of love except for 0:05:18.516 --> 0:05:23.036 one use, use, no one use, and in mind bogglingly 0:05:23.116 --> 0:05:27.956 big quantities. And if you if you think about hydrocarbons 0:05:27.996 --> 0:05:33.236 fuels and how much we use globally, I can't even 0:05:33.316 --> 0:05:36.436 express how big an industry that is, and. 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:42.036 How much oil how many hydrocarbons we are burning right this. 0:05:42.156 --> 0:05:45.676 Minute, right this minute, and and society, as we not 0:05:45.876 --> 0:05:49.956 is entirely dependent on them. Energy is prosperity, energy is 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:52.436 everything that we do. 0:05:52.356 --> 0:05:55.116 Is material well being. Yeah. 0:05:55.396 --> 0:05:58.356 So so the so the short game, the medium game 0:05:58.596 --> 0:06:00.756 is convert the hydrogen, which we know how to do 0:06:00.996 --> 0:06:04.156 therm mechanically. We know how to convert hydrogen and CO two, 0:06:04.236 --> 0:06:08.316 which we can capture from the atmosphere from other processes. 0:06:09.276 --> 0:06:11.876 We know how to combine those two to make everything 0:06:11.996 --> 0:06:15.276 from methane which is natural gas all the way to 0:06:15.756 --> 0:06:20.196 jet fuel. And so once we do that, we don't 0:06:20.236 --> 0:06:24.156 have to convert or retool all of that industrial infrastructure. 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:29.356 And why is that version cleaner? Where are you get 0:06:29.356 --> 0:06:30.676 in the CO two from? 0:06:31.276 --> 0:06:35.596 Yeah, that's also a great question. So the source of 0:06:35.636 --> 0:06:40.516 the CO two is super important for the cleanliness the 0:06:40.676 --> 0:06:45.476 carbon profile of these pathways, these intermediate pathways, because CO 0:06:45.756 --> 0:06:49.316 two that is clean and clean would be biogenic. It 0:06:49.316 --> 0:06:53.756 comes from biological sources. Well, that's a shorthanded way of 0:06:53.796 --> 0:06:58.356 saying it's captured from the atmosphere, right, Because biological CO 0:06:58.556 --> 0:07:01.116 two it comes from plants. And where does that come from? 0:07:01.196 --> 0:07:03.676 It comes from the air. So that's a form of 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:07.396 carbon capture. But there's just not enough of it available 0:07:07.716 --> 0:07:12.156 to make the amounts of fuels that we need, and 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:16.116 so it is a limited pathway. But geez, I mean, 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:18.756 we can go down that pathway for ten years and 0:07:18.796 --> 0:07:22.556 not run out FC two sources. And in the meantime, 0:07:23.036 --> 0:07:25.916 we can and are in fact already starting as a 0:07:25.956 --> 0:07:29.356 society to build our hydrogen infrastructure. If you go to Europe, 0:07:29.836 --> 0:07:34.716 there are in Germany, in the Netherlands there are hydrogen pipelines, 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:37.436 dedicated hydrogen pipelines being built today. 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:42.556 So good, So we're going in reverse chronological order. We 0:07:42.596 --> 0:07:44.156 started with the long game, and then we did the 0:07:44.156 --> 0:07:47.236 medium game, and now you're getting to the present. Right, 0:07:47.236 --> 0:07:51.436 they're building hydrogen pipelines in Europe. Now people make hydrogen 0:07:51.476 --> 0:07:56.996 today for industrial reasons, but that itself is a dirty process, right, 0:07:57.236 --> 0:07:59.716 the sort of before we can get to the happy 0:07:59.756 --> 0:08:02.556 world of just hydrogen, or even the semi happy world 0:08:02.596 --> 0:08:06.676 of hydrogen plus captured carbon, you have to figure out 0:08:06.676 --> 0:08:10.676 how to make hydrogen without emitting carbon in the first place. 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:12.996 Right that is, you got is your immediate project. 0:08:13.436 --> 0:08:15.716 You got it, and and you know I came, I 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:18.276 and my co founders came at this problem actually from 0:08:18.316 --> 0:08:23.356 the opposite direction. We're solar. We're solar people. Yeah, you know, 0:08:23.396 --> 0:08:27.356 it's solar and wind like renewable power people, and and 0:08:27.356 --> 0:08:30.276 and so like we we came at it from Gee, 0:08:30.316 --> 0:08:33.876 this this energy resource is really cheap, it's really scalable, 0:08:34.036 --> 0:08:37.276 but it's limited in how much we can deploy it. 0:08:38.476 --> 0:08:40.596 We got to think of a better way to use it. Hey, 0:08:40.716 --> 0:08:45.156 this hydrogen pathway opens up like a whole nother market 0:08:45.596 --> 0:08:48.916 that's even bigger than the electric power market. 0:08:49.516 --> 0:08:50.756 Let's let's try to do that. 0:08:51.676 --> 0:08:53.476 I mean, there's a way where, like, if you can 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:58.316 turn intermittent clean energy into hydrogen, it's like fuel, right, 0:08:58.476 --> 0:09:01.116 like hydrogen caption, Like it's kind of a pain in 0:09:01.116 --> 0:09:03.836 the ass to move around, and yeah, yeah yeah, we're 0:09:03.836 --> 0:09:05.796 not set up to use that kind of fuel. But 0:09:05.836 --> 0:09:09.316 it has the qualities of fuel, not the qualities of electricity. Right, 0:09:09.436 --> 0:09:13.956 ther'st portable, storable. So you have this big idea. It's 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:17.356 a it's an obvious question, right, an interesting, huge question 0:09:17.476 --> 0:09:19.916 right now, Oh my god, solar power is free. How 0:09:19.956 --> 0:09:22.676 do we leverage that? You know, people are trying to 0:09:22.716 --> 0:09:27.196 make weirdo long duration batteries that's another version of it. 0:09:27.556 --> 0:09:29.276 How do you land at hydrogen. 0:09:30.236 --> 0:09:32.956 Yeah, I'm a big fan of long duration batteries because 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:35.676 the grid, the grid should take should be able to 0:09:35.716 --> 0:09:39.356 take more solar and wind. It still doesn't solve the 0:09:39.476 --> 0:09:44.676 other half of global emissions, which are all these chemical industries. 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:50.036 You think about. Think about Japan. Japan doesn't have fossil resources. 0:09:50.036 --> 0:09:52.476 It doesn't have the land or the solar and wind 0:09:52.556 --> 0:09:55.876 resource to power its own economy. So you know, the 0:09:55.996 --> 0:10:00.676 choices for Japan are nuclear which is problematic for Japan. 0:10:01.076 --> 0:10:05.236 Or because cushim because they had, like to non man 0:10:05.276 --> 0:10:06.876 a nuclear accident. 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:10.236 Yeah, it wasn't a good thing. Or which is what 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:13.676 Japan does importing fuel from other places in the world. 0:10:13.796 --> 0:10:17.996 You can't import batteries that are charged. That's not a thing, right, 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:20.556 And when you think about Japan, it's an isolated case. 0:10:20.596 --> 0:10:25.196 It's really clear and obvious. But Europe imports most of 0:10:25.236 --> 0:10:29.596 its energy as an example, right, and that's a huge economy. 0:10:29.676 --> 0:10:31.556 So moving energy. 0:10:31.276 --> 0:10:33.636 From Russia awkwardly. 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:36.956 Awkwardly from Russia, and now more and more LNG from 0:10:37.036 --> 0:10:38.596 the US, which by the. 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:41.076 Way, natural gas liquid naturally. 0:10:41.516 --> 0:10:46.556 Yeah, So wires work really well in continence places where 0:10:46.636 --> 0:10:50.396 you have strong renewable resource and a lot of people. 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:54.476 But that is not characteristic of a lot of the world. 0:10:54.556 --> 0:10:57.316 And so when we think globally and energy is a 0:10:57.356 --> 0:11:01.196 global industry, right, it's a global problem. We think globally, 0:11:01.276 --> 0:11:03.676 you've got to be able to move energy in some 0:11:03.756 --> 0:11:08.316 form other than electrons. And that takes us to hydrogen 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:12.116 or it's it's you know, it's derivative. It's like futiless 0:11:12.276 --> 0:11:15.956 other hydrocarbons as the way we do this, right, that's 0:11:15.996 --> 0:11:19.516 the only way humanity has come up with to move 0:11:19.596 --> 0:11:22.396 vast amounts of energy to where people need it. 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:25.236 I mean, it's the genius of It's the genius of 0:11:25.276 --> 0:11:29.916 fossil fuel, right Like, fossil fuel is an extraordinary energy 0:11:29.956 --> 0:11:34.516 storage mechanism, right, Like it's incredible. You can move it around, 0:11:34.556 --> 0:11:36.396 you can leave it in a tank, you can put 0:11:36.396 --> 0:11:39.116 it on a ship. It's full of energy, you can 0:11:39.156 --> 0:11:41.556 burn it whenever you want. Like it's tough to beat. 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:43.916 It is super tough to beat. 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:47.996 And we have one hundred and fifty years of optimizing 0:11:48.036 --> 0:11:51.116 for it and building a world around it. 0:11:51.676 --> 0:11:56.236 And if it weren't for climate change, I wouldn't be 0:11:56.236 --> 0:12:00.636 doing what I'm doing because because fossil Yeah, because fossil 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:04.236 fuels are awesome in every other way like you describe, right, 0:12:04.276 --> 0:12:06.356 They're easy to store, they're easy to move, they're super 0:12:06.476 --> 0:12:12.076 cheap to get. Wow, like wow, it's such a gift 0:12:12.276 --> 0:12:14.876 Nature's given us and we've been using it for a 0:12:14.916 --> 0:12:15.436 long time. 0:12:15.516 --> 0:12:18.956 But gift asterisk, Yeah, gift fasters. 0:12:18.996 --> 0:12:21.836 Well, we've got me smarter, right, Yeah, we've gotten smarter 0:12:21.916 --> 0:12:25.836 and we've we've started to realize the unintended consequences of 0:12:25.876 --> 0:12:29.516 this this this resource we have, and now we got 0:12:29.556 --> 0:12:32.076 to we you know, luckily, hopefully maybe we have time 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:35.316 enough to get out of our own way and start 0:12:35.356 --> 0:12:38.916 to convert. So okay, So so hydrogen lets you do 0:12:38.996 --> 0:12:42.196 all these things. It's harder, but the big problem is 0:12:42.236 --> 0:12:45.276 it's more expensive. It's a lot more expensive today. 0:12:46.036 --> 0:12:49.676 Well, and let's just be clear, there's hydrogen means different things, 0:12:50.076 --> 0:12:53.356 and like there is people do make hydrogen an industrial 0:12:53.436 --> 0:12:56.036 at industrial scale now, but they do it in a 0:12:56.076 --> 0:12:58.556 way that emits carbon dioxide. That is like not at 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:00.636 all about solving the kinds of problems we're talking, right, 0:13:00.716 --> 0:13:04.196 So the fundamental hard thing is using electricity to make hydrogen, 0:13:04.236 --> 0:13:08.596 which is like technically not hard, but uh, but nobodys 0:13:08.596 --> 0:13:10.636 figured out how to do it in an economical way. Right, 0:13:10.676 --> 0:13:11.396 that's the base. 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:14.756 Exactly, That's exactly it. People have been doing it since 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:17.996 I don't know, sixty years ago, sixty five years. 0:13:17.876 --> 0:13:20.636 Ago, right, Like, I mean my high school chemistry teacher 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:24.036 did it. Right, He like made this jank electoralizer where 0:13:24.036 --> 0:13:26.316 he had a battery and then he ran wires from 0:13:26.316 --> 0:13:28.516 the battery into a thing of water and he put 0:13:28.596 --> 0:13:31.756 like upside down test tubes, you know, in the water, 0:13:31.956 --> 0:13:33.996 and one of the test tubes filled up with oxygen 0:13:34.036 --> 0:13:35.556 and the other one filled up with hydrogen. 0:13:35.836 --> 0:13:38.836 That basic demonstration in high school chem lab or physics 0:13:38.916 --> 0:13:45.756 lab is the core physical phenomena that is being scaled 0:13:45.876 --> 0:13:50.796 up into modern electrolisers. That's the machine that does this 0:13:50.916 --> 0:13:56.356 on an industrial scale today. That equipment is inefficient and 0:13:56.476 --> 0:14:01.036 super expensive, and because it's so expensive, you have to 0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:04.716 run it all the time, and so where Yeah, so 0:14:05.196 --> 0:14:07.716 you know, think about like you own this really expensive thing, 0:14:07.836 --> 0:14:09.036 you want to use it all the time? 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:12.156 Yeah, right, because the value you get out of it 0:14:12.236 --> 0:14:15.676 is like the amount you pay for it divided by 0:14:15.716 --> 0:14:16.476 how much you use it. 0:14:16.676 --> 0:14:19.796 Right, Exactly, You've tied up all this money in a thing. Yeah, 0:14:19.836 --> 0:14:22.156 and you've got it. That money has to be put 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:23.036 to work, right, And. 0:14:22.956 --> 0:14:24.916 So if you're if your whole case is like, oh, 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:28.676 we're gonna have intermittent free energy, that's not going to work. 0:14:28.796 --> 0:14:29.596 Yeah, that's right. 0:14:29.636 --> 0:14:33.356 Where people do electrolysis today is where. 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:35.076 They have cheap hydropower. 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:38.036 And you know, you think of like Sweden and Norway 0:14:38.156 --> 0:14:40.996 nor the Norwegians were pioneers in this because they had 0:14:40.996 --> 0:14:43.316 a lot of hydropower in remote places without a lot 0:14:43.356 --> 0:14:45.876 of people. Hey, if we could convert them to hydrogen 0:14:45.916 --> 0:14:47.716 and make fertilizer, wouldn't that be great? 0:14:48.116 --> 0:14:48.276 Right? 0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:51.516 So that's been going on for half a decade and 0:14:51.836 --> 0:14:55.396 interesting that part of the world. Okay, but hydropower isn't 0:14:55.396 --> 0:14:58.276 all that scalable. There's gigawots of it out there, but 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:01.036 you can't build much more because it has its own 0:15:01.116 --> 0:15:03.436 environmental impacts. 0:15:03.516 --> 0:15:04.196 Right. 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:08.436 So okay, so that's the core issues. This equipment super expensive, 0:15:08.796 --> 0:15:12.676 it's not efficient, and so that limits our ability to 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:17.476 use it from with this powered by this cheap, abundant 0:15:17.516 --> 0:15:21.436 but intermittent renewable resource, all this excess solar and wet. 0:15:21.276 --> 0:15:24.996 It's always techno economics, right, like the whole energy transition. 0:15:25.796 --> 0:15:28.756 It's not really a technical problem, clearly at this point. 0:15:28.796 --> 0:15:32.916 It's a it's an economic problem. It's the technoeconomic problem, yep. 0:15:33.036 --> 0:15:38.156 And the solution to the technoeconomic problem is largely technical innovation, 0:15:39.676 --> 0:15:44.276 but with business model and economic innovation wrapped around. 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:47.316 It, and scale right and scale it seems like. 0:15:47.516 --> 0:15:51.756 Yeah, yeah, scale absolutely, scale as well. So let's talk 0:15:51.796 --> 0:15:58.476 about scale. So most electrializers, big ones are one, maybe 0:15:58.796 --> 0:16:03.116 two or three megalots. Those are the biggest ones out there. 0:16:04.556 --> 0:16:07.396 A megawot is like how to put that in real terms? 0:16:07.676 --> 0:16:09.636 It sounds like a lot of power. It kind of 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:12.676 is a lot of power, but it's nothing compared to 0:16:13.476 --> 0:16:16.036 the industries we're talking about and the uses. 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:16.516 We're talking about. 0:16:16.596 --> 0:16:21.516 So if you think about like an ammonia plant, you 0:16:21.556 --> 0:16:27.756 would need a thousand of those to make enough hydrogen 0:16:28.116 --> 0:16:29.756 to run an ammonia chemical. 0:16:29.996 --> 0:16:31.236 One that's one ammonia. 0:16:31.756 --> 0:16:33.796 That's one one of thousands of the world. 0:16:35.076 --> 0:16:37.876 So do you need to go up buy a thousand X? 0:16:37.956 --> 0:16:39.356 Is that about the about them? 0:16:39.396 --> 0:16:41.596 You need to go up by about one hundred X. 0:16:41.956 --> 0:16:44.556 Okay, and then you put you then you send ten 0:16:44.596 --> 0:16:45.996 of them to the plant and it makes. 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:47.956 That makes sense. That's it. That's it. 0:16:48.076 --> 0:16:50.236 So it is all about technice economics, which, by the way, 0:16:50.836 --> 0:16:53.076 you know, so the company I run as a startup, 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:55.236 we've been around for a little over four years venture 0:16:55.316 --> 0:16:59.596 financed tech startup. This is an insane thing for a 0:16:59.636 --> 0:17:00.556 startup to try to do. 0:17:01.036 --> 0:17:03.396 Yes, well, you've raised a ton of money, right, Like, 0:17:03.436 --> 0:17:06.716 it's wildly capital intensity. You've raised hundreds of millions of dollars. 0:17:06.996 --> 0:17:10.076 We have an impressive display of venture capital that people 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:13.556 have invested in you given you that much money on 0:17:13.596 --> 0:17:17.076 a kind of long shot thing, right on a certainly 0:17:17.156 --> 0:17:18.356 hard thing that might not. 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:24.036 Work, super super intense and I'm super grateful that the 0:17:24.156 --> 0:17:27.996 venture community. You know, if you look at the venture 0:17:28.036 --> 0:17:32.156 capital communities experience with what they call clean tech, right, 0:17:32.196 --> 0:17:34.516 this is like technology companies that are trying to do 0:17:35.436 --> 0:17:39.876 like big hard transformations of industry to make them cleaner. 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:43.036 You know, there was clean tech one point. 0:17:42.876 --> 0:17:46.556 Oh maybe a decade or more ago, and a lot 0:17:46.596 --> 0:17:49.436 of people lost a lot of money. Yeah, right in 0:17:49.476 --> 0:17:52.316 that in that first foray into clean tech. 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:54.036 I mean, you happen to work at one of the 0:17:54.076 --> 0:17:58.036 only US companies that really came through that, right, maybe 0:17:58.036 --> 0:18:00.116 that helps raising money this time. 0:18:00.476 --> 0:18:04.316 It certainly doesn't hurt. It certainly doesn't hurt. Yeah, it's 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:07.996 spent thirteen years at First Solar, and it is literally 0:18:08.036 --> 0:18:09.436 one of the as you said, the old on the 0:18:09.556 --> 0:18:15.276 US companies that's still thriving in these industries. But you know, 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:18.076 when we started this company, we I think we started 0:18:18.076 --> 0:18:20.196 it at a great time clean dech two point zero, 0:18:20.236 --> 0:18:22.556 if you will. There was a lot of venture capital 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:30.036 interest for good reason because in political resolve to do 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:35.116 the things necessary to start to address climate change was strong, 0:18:35.236 --> 0:18:39.356 and that provides like the economic footing the support necessary 0:18:41.516 --> 0:18:45.076 for kind of new technologies to enter the market. When 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:47.396 something new enters is the market, it's never competitive. 0:18:48.036 --> 0:18:52.396 Yeah, well, it's interesting in the solar story, how at 0:18:52.476 --> 0:18:54.796 least in Jenny Chase's version of the story, which seems 0:18:54.796 --> 0:18:57.836 like the most credible version I've come across. The German 0:18:58.116 --> 0:19:00.436 feed in tariff of two thousand and four is this 0:19:00.476 --> 0:19:03.676 sort of inciting event. It's just this one policy change 0:19:03.716 --> 0:19:09.316 in a medium sized, rich country kicks off this amazing 0:19:09.996 --> 0:19:13.676 run down the experience curve, you know, of solar panels 0:19:13.716 --> 0:19:17.596 getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper until now without incentives 0:19:17.636 --> 0:19:19.916 like solar is gonna win. It's gonna keep winning. It's 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:21.916 not subject to these political wins. 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:22.676 You got it. 0:19:22.756 --> 0:19:26.076 I won't repeat the story though I personally lived through it, 0:19:26.676 --> 0:19:28.636 but it sounds like you and your listeners have already 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:31.516 heard it and your recounting is accurate. Where not for 0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:34.796 the German feed and tariff for solar probably would not exist, 0:19:34.916 --> 0:19:37.596 nor would the solar industry as we know it. China 0:19:37.636 --> 0:19:41.236 certainly would not have scaled up their industry dramatically, and 0:19:41.276 --> 0:19:44.516 you know they're the dominant supplier of solar panels in 0:19:44.516 --> 0:19:50.836 the world by a large margin. But as a result 0:19:50.916 --> 0:19:53.356 of all that, the industry got to scale, got the 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:56.396 better and better economics. And it's not just the solar panels, 0:19:56.436 --> 0:20:00.076 the equipment, but it's also, as you said, the experience 0:20:00.316 --> 0:20:05.316 of building solar farms, the learning and the cost reduction, 0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:08.876 the country repetition. Right, you build one house, it's kind 0:20:08.876 --> 0:20:10.996 of spenser. If you build one hundred houses, they get 0:20:11.036 --> 0:20:13.756 cheaper and cheaper. It's the same with solar and wind. 0:20:14.196 --> 0:20:17.756 Houses are a weird example, though. Houses are like that 0:20:18.396 --> 0:20:21.676 terrible productivity gits. Everything else gets cheaper when you build 0:20:21.676 --> 0:20:24.796 more of them houses weirdly refractory the productivity gits. 0:20:24.996 --> 0:20:29.916 That was a really bad example. I agree. 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:34.476 Still to come on the show, how Rafi and his 0:20:34.516 --> 0:20:37.636 colleagues at Electric Hydrogen plan to cut the cost of 0:20:37.716 --> 0:20:51.356 clean hydrogen in half? So is the Inflation Reduction Act 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:54.956 this bill, this US law passed a few years ago. 0:20:55.556 --> 0:20:57.876 Is this like the German feed in tariff of two 0:20:57.876 --> 0:20:59.756 thousand and four a moment for hydrogen? Is that what 0:20:59.756 --> 0:21:03.676 you're hoping? Yeah, so the answer is no, Okay, interesting, 0:21:03.716 --> 0:21:04.316 tell me more. 0:21:04.716 --> 0:21:04.956 Yeah. 0:21:05.116 --> 0:21:09.716 Interestingly, the equivalent of the German feeding taraff today is 0:21:09.756 --> 0:21:14.476 not the Inflation Reduction Act and its provisions for hydrogen, 0:21:14.956 --> 0:21:17.196 but it's what's going on in European policy. 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:27.796 Okay, well, that's heartening for semi obvious reasons. Go on, yeah, yeah, 0:21:27.876 --> 0:21:29.436 So what's happening in Europe? 0:21:30.276 --> 0:21:34.436 So in the European Union there is there are a 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:38.876 number of policy frameworks, but what's called Red two or 0:21:38.916 --> 0:21:44.836 Red three, which are laws in Europe. These laws in 0:21:44.876 --> 0:21:50.996 Europe provide a framework for carrots and sticks to decarbonize 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:55.156 certain high emitting industries. It all has to do with 0:21:55.236 --> 0:22:02.756 the utilization of the renewable energy to decarbonize things like steel, concrete, fertilizer, 0:22:03.076 --> 0:22:06.196 chemical industries, energy. 0:22:06.196 --> 0:22:08.716 Those I mean, those heavy industry ones that you mentioned 0:22:08.756 --> 0:22:12.916 are the classic like ones we haven't figured out yet, 0:22:12.956 --> 0:22:16.956 classic like hard to do with electricity, even if you 0:22:17.076 --> 0:22:21.716 got the electricity, like cement famously very hard to decarbonize steel, 0:22:21.916 --> 0:22:24.476 very hard, fertilizer very hard, like we don't know how 0:22:24.476 --> 0:22:25.276 to do it yet. 0:22:25.836 --> 0:22:28.076 Well, interestingly, we do know how to do it. 0:22:28.036 --> 0:22:29.916 I don't have to do it economically yet. 0:22:30.036 --> 0:22:32.036 That's it, you got it, you got it. 0:22:32.076 --> 0:22:35.836 Which ends up being the same thing with commodity businesses like. 0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:39.276 That, one hundred percent. The only value in a commodity 0:22:39.316 --> 0:22:43.556 business is the price, right, There's no other like, you know, 0:22:43.596 --> 0:22:45.876 you can't make it prettier, you can't make it faster, 0:22:46.156 --> 0:22:47.276 you can't make it cooler. 0:22:47.716 --> 0:22:51.556 It's just the only thing you can do. Bro Yeah yeah, 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:53.276 yeah yeah. Okay. 0:22:53.356 --> 0:22:56.836 So, so the European kind of legal framework, policy framework 0:22:57.076 --> 0:23:02.036 actually is what's driving this industry to produce hydrogen and 0:23:02.156 --> 0:23:08.076 chemicals from hydrogen because it's it's driving consumption demand for 0:23:08.156 --> 0:23:10.996 those moments for those products. 0:23:10.516 --> 0:23:15.196 Because basically they get a subsidy if they consume hydrogen 0:23:15.236 --> 0:23:18.396 and they pay a fee if they don't, and more. 0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:21.356 Last, and it's that last piece, the penalty if you 0:23:21.436 --> 0:23:25.476 don't the stick. The stick is what actually works to 0:23:25.556 --> 0:23:30.316 create demand. That's right, because and in contrast what we 0:23:30.356 --> 0:23:34.476 have in the US with the IRA and we can 0:23:34.516 --> 0:23:36.836 talk later about like what's actually going on with it 0:23:36.876 --> 0:23:39.516 if you care to. But but in the US, we 0:23:39.636 --> 0:23:44.676 just have a production side subsidy visa via tax credit 0:23:45.036 --> 0:23:48.276 that doesn't do anything to cause the demand side to 0:23:48.276 --> 0:23:49.036 buy the stuff. 0:23:50.436 --> 0:23:53.756 Yes, I mean, I guess. If I guess, the hope 0:23:53.756 --> 0:23:58.356 would be that the the production subsidy would lower the 0:23:58.436 --> 0:24:02.756