1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: I didn't set out to immerse myself in the murky 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: realm of art fraud. In two thousand and ten, I 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: found myself waging legal war with a dealer who sold 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: me a painting that wasn't quite right, as they say 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: in the art world. As fate would have it, my 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: story was unfolding just as the Knoedler gallery scandal was 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: taking center stage under intense scrutiny from the press. As 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: an actor, I'm always looking for what defines a character. 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: All con artists have their own definitive markings, and Friedman 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: and Glyphira Rosales presented themselves as courtly, almost academic, Yet 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: behind their poise and professional demeanor, I always sensed an 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: undertone of loneliness, even despair. To my surprise, these same 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: traits are evident in both our stories in this final 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: episode of the season. Art fraud is an ever present phenomenon. 15 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: Not long ago, Intego Philbrick, a dapper, young London dealer, 16 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: managed to steal some seventy million dollars from his friends 17 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: and colleagues by selling fractional shares of paintings than trading 18 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: those shares like monopoly cards, oftentimes pieces of one painting 19 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: would be sold entirely twice over in what amounted to 20 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: a sort of art world Ponzi scheme. Intego was brilliant, 21 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: says his friend Kenny Shackter, a droll and beloved columnist 22 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: of the contemporary art market, even more than like Goo 23 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: Goozien or some of the dealers. He could tell you 24 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: the difference between a two million dollar Christopher Wall painting 25 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: and a two point two million He would really have 26 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: a cabal of people, Intego, that he would sell work to, 27 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: and then he would resell it amongst those participants, unwittingly 28 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: that we're buying and selling art through him. Shackter lost 29 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: one point seven five million dollars when Philbrick vanished, only 30 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: to be arrested on an island off the eastern coast 31 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: of Australia. Kenny was left to wonder what had motivated 32 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: his friend to commit such egregious acts of fraud, just 33 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: as I had wondered about my dealer, Mary Boone. I 34 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 1: suspect the motivation is almost always universal greed. We'll get 35 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: into my sordid story in a bit, but first I 36 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: want to tell you the story of artist Robert Indiana, 37 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: creator of the iconic love sculpture. The whole world knows 38 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: those four letters to over two that spell love with 39 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: its oh at a Debonair slant. Long ago, Indiana had 40 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: lived with artist Ellsworth Kelly on Cowenty's Slip, the Artists 41 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: Wharf in Lower Manhattan. But in the early eighties he'd 42 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: come to the coast of Maine and never left. His 43 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: home was a rambling Victorian lodge hall on the scruffy 44 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: island of vinyl Haven, about halfway up the coast of May, 45 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: near Rockland. There his career had stalled for Indiana refused 46 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: a trademark or copyright any of his work, and let 47 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: tacky commercial spinoffs of love define him. By the end 48 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: of the seventies, he had moved out of New York City, 49 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: moved to Maine, and moved to vinyl Haven, Maine, which 50 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: is an island an hour off the coast that you 51 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: can only get to by ferry or small engine plane. 52 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: And so he was as isolated as they can get. 53 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: That's Luke nichoas the lawyer who represented Ann Friedman in 54 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: the dissol trial, and I found himself fighting a perhaps 55 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: more noble campaign on behalf of the iconic artist Robert Indiana, 56 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: he was gone as far as the art world was concerned. 57 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: Throughout the eighties, he made works here and there, but 58 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: he wasn't a superstar anymore. He wasn't recognized, and by 59 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: the end of the eighties he might as well not 60 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: even have existed in terms of his presence in the 61 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: fine art world. That was when an art advisor named 62 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: Simon salamac Carro started knocking. Salama Carro had seen his 63 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: work and was interested in meeting with Indiana to talk 64 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: with him about rejuvenating his career. He saw a path. 65 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: He saw a path of reintroducing Indiana's work to art historians, 66 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: to museums. He saw a path of getting the infringing 67 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: use of Indiana's images under control. No more shoes, no 68 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: more trinkets, no more use that was outside of what 69 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: Simon thought would really bring the brand back. Sala mccarrow 70 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: steered his work away from schlocky spinoffs to sculptures in 71 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: what Indiana came to call admiringly the noble Materials. He 72 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: also extricated the artist from an unpaid six hundred thousand 73 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: dollars in taxes and leans on his home. Such guidance 74 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: didn't come for free. Sala mccarro worked for the Morgan 75 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: Art Foundation for profit that held the rights to produce 76 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: Indiana's best known works, but Indiana could see it had 77 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: promise Morgan would take the copyrights in the trademarks, would 78 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: give Indiana of revenue from the use of those images, 79 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 1: so it would be a split between them, and Morgan 80 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: would monitor and clean up the market for Indiana's images. 81 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: It went all over the world and started bringing infringement 82 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: suits season desist letters, and ultimately what that did was 83 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: it created the very clear message that Indiana's imagery could 84 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: not be exploited. At the same time, Morgan put millions 85 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: and millions and millions of dollars of funding behind the 86 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: fabrication of indiana sculptures, which are extremely expensive to fabricate, 87 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: difficult to fabricate. You need real facilities that Indiana did 88 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: not have. Ten years later, or so fifteen years, the 89 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: Whitney Museum in New York City had a major retrospective 90 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: of Indiana's work, and he was back on the map again, 91 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: extraordinarily successful. And then what happened. Michael mackenzie came into 92 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: the picture. In two thousand eight. Advisor Michael Mackenzie had 93 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: a brilliant idea, why not change Indiana's love to hope 94 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: and make it the banner for the surging Obama presidential campaign. 95 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: As Mackenzie deepened his relationship with Indiana over Hope, he 96 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: began expanding Hope Prince on canvas, more Hope sculptures, more 97 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: colors of Hope, Expand, Expand, Expand, and then he bought 98 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: a studio on Vinyl even near Indiana to have better 99 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: access to him. Soon other operators began swooping in. I 100 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: spoke with Bob Keys, a long time reporter for the 101 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: Portland Press Herald who just published a fascinating book titled 102 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: The Isolation Artist, Scandal, Deception, and the Last Days of 103 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: Robert Indiana. Keys described the circle of operators well. Jim 104 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: brann Is a long time attorney in Rockland, Maine. He 105 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: became much more closely involved in Indiana's affairs and in 106 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: six helped change Indiana's will that made him the executor 107 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: of the estate. And Jamie Thomas, who was then an 108 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: island caretaker, became much more involved in Indiana's personal affairs 109 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: and he became the power of attorney as well as 110 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: the healthcare power of attorney, And from that point on, 111 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: Indiana certainly lost control of much of the legal and 112 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: professional aspects of his life in terms of his legal representation, 113 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: and Jamie Thomas was authorized at that point to make 114 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: business decisions for him as power of attorney. That's when 115 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: we began to see much more work attributed to Mackenzie 116 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: start to come out of the UH Indiana studio at 117 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: a time when Indiana was definitely in failing health and 118 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: had not made new work in quite a while. Now, 119 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: is that to say that that it looked to you 120 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: and others as if what Mackenzie and um Thomas we're doing, 121 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: and perhaps Brandon as well, was forging. UH forging is 122 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: a legal term. I think what they were doing was 123 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: pushing the boundaries of what was authentic work. The work 124 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: was suspicious right away in the eyes of many people 125 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: who knew it. It didn't seem authentic. My reporting suggests 126 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: that Indiana probably was aware of its creation but not 127 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: involved with it, and and look the other way. And 128 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: that was fairly common during that point in his life. 129 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: And what did it mean that Thomas became beneficiary I 130 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: guess of the estate. I mean he had nothing to 131 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: do with making art. Why was he written into the will? 132 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Thomas was written into the will because Indiana at some 133 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: point surrounded himself with people from the vinyl Haven community 134 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: who were loyal to him, and Thomas was in that camp. 135 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: Thomas had a relationship with Robert Indiana that went back 136 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: many decades. There is a lot of debate among people 137 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: who worked with Indiana how close they were, but it 138 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: is a fact. At as eightieth birthday party in two 139 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Indiana invited Jamie Thomas to it, and 140 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: that was a pretty personal affair, so they definitely had 141 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: a friendship. Jamie Thomas ultimately convinced Indiana to make him 142 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: the power of Attorney. And then we see Thomas's text 143 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: messages with Mackenzie up until the point Indiana died, where 144 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: they were texting back and forth about works that they 145 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: would create together. You can envision the text W I 146 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: N E and and so forth and so on, you know, 147 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: stacked four letter words. They were texting back and forth 148 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: that they should create on their own while Indiana was 149 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: on his deathbed. And so Mackenzie, deep in that relationship, 150 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: built it with Thomas. Thomas was on the inside. Thomas 151 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: became involved in Indiana's life at a time when his 152 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: health was failing, and many people on the island saw 153 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: him as coming in to help get Indiana out of 154 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: some more trouble. But there's no question that in so 155 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: doing he also isolated Indiana from all of his art 156 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: world contexts who could no longer reach him an interview 157 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: him and talk about things. And at the same time, 158 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: there was a large body of work coming out of 159 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: his studio and it had the mark of Mackenzie all 160 00:10:53,200 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: over it. Fine art friends like legendary Dartmouth art professor 161 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: John Wilmerding started knocking on the door of Indiana's Vinyl 162 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: Haven home and getting no response. John Wilmerging made at 163 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: least an annual trip to see Robert Indiana at the 164 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: Star of Hope every summer. I believe the last time 165 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: he saw Indiana was in the fall or late summer 166 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: of m d made a comment to Indiana that it 167 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: sort of looks like the School of Indiana, and Indiana 168 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: sort of shrugged and said, I guess in some ways 169 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: that it is. Wilmerding never saw him again. He tried 170 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: to reach him, He sent emails that were not returned. 171 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: He had ters responses from others in the Indiana camp 172 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: and basically was told you're no longer going to be 173 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: able to see him, and other people were peeled away 174 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: as well. By early two thousand eighteen, attorney Luke Nikas, 175 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: representing the Morgan Art Foundation, alleged that the trio of 176 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: art publisher Michael Mackenzie, caretaker Jamie Thomas, and local business 177 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: partner James W. Brannan had taken control of the eighty 178 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: eight year old artist Indiana lived in an old Mason's home. 179 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: Was a very old home, big beautiful home, tons of space, 180 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: but also in need of significant repair that wasn't kept 181 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: up over time, and so Indiana's bedroom was on the 182 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: top floor, and near the end of his life, they 183 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: took the staircase that went from his bedroom out of 184 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: the house down to his yard out of the house. 185 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: That completely removed it. We were told by studio assistants 186 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: that the locks were changed so they couldn't get in 187 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: to help Indiana, that windows were boarded up so that 188 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: he couldn't yell out or reach out for help, and 189 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: so this was total isolation in the extreme to prevent 190 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: Indiana from reaching out to the people he knew could 191 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: help him out of this situation. There was more. Luke 192 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: learned the Trio had taken over Indiana's email account, his 193 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: voice mail, and had completely controlled every aspect of his 194 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: life for the last several years. Not only did Morgan 195 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: allege Jamie Thomas stole money from Indiana and diverted opportunities 196 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: from Indiana, but Morgan alleged that Jamie Thomas and Michael 197 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: Mackenzie had conspired to forge works in Indiana's name. The 198 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: trio had even stolen images that the Morrigan Art Foundation 199 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: owned and sold those images as Indiana's even though they weren't. 200 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: We found a Instagram post a video of someone signing 201 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: in mackenzie studio Robert Indiana works with an auto pen 202 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: or a ghostwriter, and in the middle of the video, 203 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: the studio assistant said for jury and posted that Mackenzie, 204 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: her boss, was forcing her to forge paintings and if 205 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: the police came, she would quote unquote sing like a bird. 206 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: And so we we filed this lawsuit a edging that 207 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: Mackenzie had forged these paintings. The very next day, in 208 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: May of two thousand eighteen, Indiana died. Despite Indiana's death, 209 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: the case forged ahead. We jumped into discovery in the case, 210 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: got more information related to the works that were being made. 211 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: We have witnesses, We took testimony, and then throughout the 212 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: case Michael Mackenzie testified that he had absolutely no more 213 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: works by Indiana in his possession. He wasn't making any works. 214 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: The entire business was shut down in that respect. Two 215 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: weeks ago, I inspected Michael Mackenzie's property to look at 216 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: the works that were on the property, and it turns 217 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: out there were over a thousand works on the property 218 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: that we're supposedly by Robert Indiana. Stencils that he was 219 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: using with certain years two thousand fifteen, two thousand seventeen. 220 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: Stamped on the back of the paintings that were used 221 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: is Indiana signature. So I went to the judge and 222 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: I asked for more discovery given that we had been 223 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: denied information, and then was allowed to go out again 224 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: and inspect the entire studio. And when I was there, 225 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: I cataloged the entire blueprint of how Michael mackenzie operated. 226 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: The catalog resume of Robert Indiana's works was tabbed with 227 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: post it notes. He had a full composition notebook of 228 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: drawings of Indiana works he was creating, and so we 229 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: went back to the court and said he's forging works. 230 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: This is the blueprint, this is the forger's den. I 231 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: received a phone call from one of Michael Mackenzie's now 232 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: former friends and what he said was two things. Number One, 233 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: Michael Mackenzie still forging works. He just forged a hundred 234 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: and fifty in his studio. Here's a picture. He's stamping 235 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: the back of those works with two thousand fifteen stencils, 236 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: with two thousand seventeen stencils. He's selling them for a 237 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: lot of money all over the world. And production was 238 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: still ramping up when you came to the studio under 239 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: court order, allowed to inspect his property to see what 240 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: he had created. In the middle of the day and 241 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: night before you arrived, he shipped seven truckloads of art 242 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: off the property into a storage facility to prevent you 243 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: from seeing what he had done. Luke got a declaration 244 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: from Mackenzie under oath, detailing all of this, detailing the 245 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: forgeries he was making, detailing how he was using the stencil's, 246 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: detailing Mackenzie's proclivities towards guns and threats, and the way 247 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: he deals with people in his workplace, and so we 248 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: got that declaration under oath, went back to the judge, 249 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: and the judge is now opening up the whole other 250 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: phase in the case for violation of all of these 251 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: discovery orders that she's issued. In the summer of Luke 252 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 1: Nichols demonstrated the automatic signature machine that signed Indiana Prince 253 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: and showed the tropes of forgeries. With that, three of 254 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: the parties settled, the Morgan Art Foundation, the artist's Star 255 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: of Hope Foundation, and the estate itself. Perhaps now top 256 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: quality Indiana works could be sold again. Also participating in 257 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: the settlement where Jamie Thomas, the island caretaker, and Jim 258 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: Brannon the lawyer, left out was Michael Mackenzie, who said 259 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: he would work with both parties but implied the wrangling 260 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: wasn't done yet. Quote I can take this apart, he 261 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: warned his partners in The New York Times. The terms 262 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: were secret, which struck many as odd since the Star 263 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: of Hope is a nonprofit foundation. There are many people 264 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: who believe that settlement needs to be made public because 265 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: the Star of Hope Foundation is a public entity in Maine, 266 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: and it's uh the taxpayers and their citizens and residents 267 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: of Maine have vested interest in the outcome of it, 268 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: and it's worth maybe a million hundred million dollars the estate, 269 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: and UH as taxpayers, we have a right to know 270 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: at least what it says and and who's going to 271 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: benefit from the estate and where the artwork is going 272 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: to go. Indiana wanted his artwork on view and for 273 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: public consumption. That's what he cared most about. What I'm 274 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: struck by in this story is the efforts Indiana made 275 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: to get his name back and to get the valuation 276 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: of his work back. And he's successful, but then he 277 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: runs into these people and it just blows up in 278 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: his face. Ultimately, this is the story of a brilliant 279 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: but lonely man whose art may never have filled the 280 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: whole in his heart. Certainly he never had another long 281 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: term partner after Ellsworth Kelly asked for the Vinyl Haven community. 282 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: Despite welcoming the great artist in early the local fishermen 283 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: and their families had cut Indiana off amid shocking charges. 284 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: Indiana had been arrested for solicitation of prostitution in and 285 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: stood accused of paying minors for sex. One local boy 286 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: testified that he was twelve when the abuse began and 287 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: that it had continued for six years. Another accuser also 288 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: came forward. A legal proceeding acquitted Indiana of the charges. 289 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: In Indiana said he felt lucky to be acquitted, a 290 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: sentiment that left the Islanders outraged. I feel that Indiana 291 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 1: brought on a lot of the problems himself because of 292 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: his inability to resolve the conflicts. He suffered from a 293 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: lot of she was in terms of his youth and 294 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: his lack of trust and his inability to let people 295 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: close to him, and that really did affect him at 296 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: the end. I feel sorry for him because of his 297 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: lack of personal tools that one needs to navigate the world. 298 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: He didn't have a healthy youth grown up, and he 299 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: never figured out how to live in the world in 300 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: a partnered sort of way. All he was left within 301 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: the end was hope. After the break, Michael Shnayerson and 302 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: I will talk about Mary Boone Ross Bleckner and a 303 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: painting I loved and finally was able to purchase sort of. 304 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: In the movie gaslight Ingrid Bergmann found yourself wondering why 305 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: her possessions are moving and vanishing. Is she losing her mind. 306 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: I thought about that movie, Alec when I first heard 307 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: about your own personal brush with art fraud. So how 308 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: did that happen? Well, you know, for a long time 309 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: I had walked around with this mailing card that I 310 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: got from Mary Boone and Gallerie selling a painting by 311 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: Ross Bleckner, and I had it with me and you know, 312 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of stared at it every now and then thought, Wow, 313 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: I wonder where that painting is. And I mean I 314 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't someone who was keen on researching that and 315 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: chasing that down. First of all, let's talk about Bleckner 316 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: a minute and and sort of put him in context. 317 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: He had come up in the early eighties in a 318 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: group of young, very dramatic artists represented by the Mary 319 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: Boone Gallery. They were doing something new, you know, breaking 320 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: out of abstract and minimalist art that frankly most people 321 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: were tired of. And Mary saw that the market was 322 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: ready for big, bold paintings with a lot of color paintings, 323 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: you can understand. So by the early nineteen eighties she 324 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: had the hottest gallery in New York. Perhaps not by coincidence, 325 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: her artists were mostly ale, handsome, very dramatic They are 326 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: artists who actually looked and acted like artists. Painters like 327 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: Julian Schnabel with his broken plate paintings, Eric Fishel with 328 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: his paintings that showed a dark side of suburban life, 329 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: and David Sally, who painted sensuous women among various symbols, 330 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: and finally Ross Buckner. So what was it about Ross 331 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: Buckner that you liked, you know, more than those other artists. 332 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: I think just the colors. I mean, you know, my 333 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: own personal taste, you know, I think that picture just 334 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: kind of cast a little tiny spell on me, you 335 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: know what I mean? And I like, I said, I 336 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: wound up carrying that in a sheaf of papers that 337 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: I had, that a little binder. One day, as luck 338 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: would have it, I met Ross and a bunch of 339 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: other people for Ross's birthday, which coincided with another opening 340 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: he had at Mary Boone and I went, I saw 341 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: a painting I liked. I had to hustle out the 342 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: door because would relate to another appointment. I came back 343 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: the next day that painting was sold. You went into 344 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: that event one night, I think you said. In two right. 345 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: We went to the gallery because it was Ross's birthday 346 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: and we went to the opening and then we were 347 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: hustled out of the opening very quickly. I was like, well, 348 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: I'd like to spend some time or look at some 349 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: of the paintings, and they were like, what you know. 350 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: They weren't there to buy any of Ross's paintings as friends. 351 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: So I came back the next day and I said 352 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: to Mary, that's the painting I want. She said, well, 353 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: that's sold. And then you realize, well, of course it did, 354 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: and she said, when you come in and we can talk. 355 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: I go to a computer with her and I take 356 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: her to see in mirror the painting that I'd refer 357 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: to in the in the mailer that I carried around 358 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: the Holy Grail here if you will, of Ross's paintings 359 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: to me, I said that picture, I said, where is that? 360 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: She was, I think I can get that. I think 361 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: that guy will sell that painting. So that was the 362 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: picture that was literally the image that you had had 363 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: on your card that you were walking around with was 364 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: the painting Sea and Mirror from n She said, I 365 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: know who bought that, and she said, I think I 366 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: can get it fair. I presume you thought, well that 367 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: could be expensive if she's going to persuade someone to 368 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: sell the painting back to you. But you said, go 369 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: ahead and try your luck, you know, Mary, if you 370 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: can do it, great, and only the next day, if 371 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: not even that day. She called you back to say 372 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: what she said. I got the painting. Now, the paintings 373 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: that were contemporary, the paintings that were from that gallery 374 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: exhibit in and around that time, we're in the high 375 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: five figures. She then came to me and said, I 376 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: can get you this painting for a hundred and ninety 377 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And it was more than double the dollars 378 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 1: that Ross was getting for the other paintings, where they 379 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,719 Speaker 1: were a five thousand dollar range. So what was her 380 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: rationale for why you should pay you know, more than 381 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: ice I was buying the nineties six painting. She was saying, how, 382 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: I'm buying it from this collector and that's what he wants. 383 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: He wants a hundred dollars for the painting. I said, great, 384 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: I'll take it. I was just completely completely overjoyed that 385 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: I could get the painting. Thrilled with the opportunity he 386 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: had been presented to finally own his own holy Grail 387 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: of paintings. Alec purchased ross Buck, Nurse c and Mirror 388 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: from Mary Boone for the agreed price of a hundred 389 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: and ninety thousand dollars. A short time later, the painting 390 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: arrived at Alex's office on the Upper West Side, so 391 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: we had them hang the painting. And when they hung 392 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: the painting, it reeked very strongly of some chemical like 393 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: paint thinner, turpentine, some astringent kind of chemical smell like that. 394 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: And then I called her and I said, that gauzy 395 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: feathered effect that is on display in this painting in 396 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: the N and six Sea and Mirror like no other. 397 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's probably one of his gaussiest series of paintings, 398 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: and very watery. It doesn't look like that at all. 399 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: It doesn't look like that at all. And I said, 400 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: what's going on? And it smells at this chemical? She said, well, 401 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: we took it off the stretcher and we cleaned it 402 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: because the previous owner was a heavy smoker and we 403 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: wanted to clean the painting. And I thought, uh huh, okay. 404 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: But and and even though clean, I thought cleaning wouldn't 405 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: affect the technique of the painting. It was almost like 406 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: she was suggesting that the cleaning of the painting had 407 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: altered the very nature of the painting. It was very 408 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: bright and very vivid. It wasn't at all like the 409 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: other paintings. I said, look like a bag of M 410 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: and M spilled on the floor. Was very bright and 411 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: very shiny. The colors weren't the same in the original 412 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: Sea and Mirror. There are really strong, the yellows are 413 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: very buttery. The reds are very maroon and very burgundy 414 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: and very strong. And these are my favorite colors. There's 415 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: violets that are just all the haunting colors. And then 416 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: the ones that he did for this picture. I mean, 417 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: I I sometimes wonder if he even painted this. It 418 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: was like some assistant or something, because it was really 419 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: nowhere at all remotely like the original painting. And she 420 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: said to me, well, we took it off the stretcher 421 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: in case we had to repair some cracks and stuff. 422 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: And later on I've consulted with someone else who tell 423 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: me that's nonsense. I just find it so fascinating that, 424 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, you called Mary and she just had this 425 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: song and dance about how it was the real painting. 426 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: It was the painting that you had wanted, that you 427 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: had carried around a picture of all these years. You know, 428 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: she could have gone a whole other way here. She 429 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: could have said, you know, I couldn't get that painting, 430 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: but here's some others from the series. Well, I mean, 431 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, I always live inside a world of alternatives. 432 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: You know what might have happened, what choices might people 433 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: have made. And one of the things that was just 434 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: clear to me was if you'd come to me and said, 435 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: I can't get the painting. The guy in California that 436 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: owns the se and mirror, I either can't find him 437 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: or he doesn't want to sell. My point is is 438 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: that if she come to me and said, I'll have 439 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: him paint you a copy, I'll have him paint you 440 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: another in a series of these types of paintings, I 441 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: would have said great. And it wasn't like I'm saying, oh, 442 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: when you're gonna charge me eight dollars to like like 443 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: I was obsessed about the price. The important thing is 444 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: I would have accepted a copy. Had they told me 445 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: it was a copy, we could have negotiated the price. 446 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: But instead she didn't say it was a copy. She 447 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: put the bin number of the painting on the back 448 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: of the painting she sold me. She put the date 449 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: six on the back of the painting she sold me. 450 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: All of it was just reeked of foul play, of speaking, 451 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: the fact that you're handing me the painting in two 452 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: thousand ten and you're putting the date nine and it 453 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: wasn't the painting from nine six. You put a fake 454 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: date on there. When all this went down and she 455 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: was confronted, legally, the statute of limitations had passed, but 456 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: she decided to go a completely different way. She insisted 457 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: that I knew it was a copy. I knew what 458 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: I was buying. She had never represented to me that 459 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: this was the original painting. She swore up and down 460 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: that I knew I was buying a copy of C 461 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: and Mirror From, not the original painting, which was not true. 462 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: And then we mo went back to the d A 463 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: and said she charged me the price. I just bought 464 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: two paintings from her that were freshly made, so to speak, 465 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: that were freshly baked, and they were in the high 466 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: five figures. Why would I pay a hundred and ninety 467 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: thousand dollars for a freshly baked ross? Now that was 468 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: exhibit A, if you will, And the other was the 469 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: date and the bin number. And when this thing was 470 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: on my war, I said to myself, and again, I 471 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: think it's an important point that it wasn't around me 472 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: all the time I travel uptown. I go to that 473 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: office and I go, oh, there it is, and I say, 474 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: so that means Ross is a fake. And Ross I 475 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: was kind of friendly with. And I thought, well, this 476 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: means Ross ripped me off. And I thought or not. 477 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe Ross was told he's okay with a copy, 478 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: make him a copy, and I'm going to sell him 479 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: this copy. I believe she played both of us. I 480 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: believe she said Ross, he wants a copy of Sea 481 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: and Mirrors, and she said to me, I'm going to 482 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: get you the original Sea and Mirrors. He thought one thing, 483 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: I thought another thing. As it turned out, that's exactly 484 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: what happened. We reached out to Ross Bleckner for comment, 485 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: and he was gracious enough to respond, well, we don't 486 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: feel comfortable reading his response verbatim. We can say that 487 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: Ross's own recollection of the events is precisely what Alex expected. 488 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: That is to say, Mary Boone contacted Buckner and asked 489 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: him to paint a copy of C and mirror for 490 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: a client. He didn't hear from Mary Boone after that, 491 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: once she took possession of the painting. The moment we 492 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: subpoenaed her emails and she produced, and Ross produced a 493 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: bunch of emails, and she produced almost none. And the 494 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: judge said, if you don't give me these emails, if 495 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: you're saying you don't have emails of your exchange with 496 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: him that discussed this early on, you know, at the onset, 497 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: I was amazed at how firm the judge was and 498 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: how clear the judge was. The judge says, if you 499 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: don't do this, I'm going to assume you're hiding something. 500 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to automatically assume there's something you're hiding. And 501 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,479 Speaker 1: they were just shrieking up and down that they couldn't 502 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: wait to have that in the courtroom and over so 503 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: the stuff, and I thought, okay, okay. And then once 504 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: we subpoenaed all of her emails to any sales of 505 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: Ross Bleckner, because we knew deep down inside that she 506 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: didn't wake up one day and start doing this with 507 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: me that day. We wanted to check and see were 508 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: we in the territory of a class action suit with 509 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: a grouping of people who had been treated this way 510 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: in some way, and the moment we subpoenaed all of 511 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: her emails to discuss that, they settled and they wrote 512 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: me a check for a million dollars. I want you 513 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 1: to tell me about going to marry Ann Bowski. You 514 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: were going to see some paintings. She was going to 515 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: show you a Thornton dial and what happened. That became 516 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: a real turning point when I said to her that 517 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: Mary said, we took the painting off the stretcher in 518 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: order to repair it and clean it. I think she 519 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: said it needed to be repaired. Mary Ann said, well, 520 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. I said, what do you mean. She said, 521 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: she would never have taken the painting off the canvas 522 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: and repaired it and cleaned it without your permission. She 523 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: just took it upon herself. She's claiming to do that. 524 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: We just did that for you. And she said, it 525 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: never happens that way. She said, this is an all 526 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: likelihood of fake. It looks like a fake, and it 527 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: smells like a fake because it is a fake. Mary 528 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: Anne Bowski has been an art dealer for twenty five years. 529 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: She started her first gallery and her current gallery on 530 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: Two Street in New York has been opened since two 531 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: thousand six. Alec visited with Marianne recently at her gallery. 532 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: She recalled their original conversation about that ill fated painting. 533 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: You just said, is it strange that I would have gotten, 534 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, a painting after I bought it and it 535 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: would look different than the image that it looked like, 536 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: And then was told that it was cleaned, and I 537 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 1: was like, that's definitely strange. And then we kind of 538 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: continued talking about it, and I, you know, I had 539 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: real empathy for you, but there was a terrible situation. 540 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: But if the painting comes off the stretcher to be 541 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: cleaned or repaired, that's something that you would affect the 542 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: value of the painting, not necessarily. So let's say I 543 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: had a leasi scavenge. Someone came back with a lazy 544 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: scavenge that I sold them in two thousand one and 545 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: it had some schmutz on it, right, What I would 546 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: do is I would have a conservator look at it 547 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: and recommend what needs to be done. Can it be 548 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: cleaned if you need to in pain? Is there damage? 549 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: Then I would call Lisa or her. If I didn't 550 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 1: know her personally, I would call s Warner and I 551 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: would say, I have this, and here's the situation. Does 552 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: Lisa want to look at it? And she would either 553 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: say yes or no, or they would say, um, you know, 554 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: she'd like to fix it herself. And if she fixes 555 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: it herself, it's not really going to be um any 556 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: kind of diminution in value because it's her, you know, 557 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: just making sure that her work is in good shape. 558 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: So or if she wanted to clean it, that's not 559 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: going to change anything except clean it. But if she's 560 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: then said, you know there's a terror in it and 561 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: it needs to be fixed, I recommend you go to 562 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: so and so to fix it because they're the best 563 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: of my work. So now I have this painting that 564 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: is on consignment and it's been torn and sown, and 565 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: Lisa has opined on who needs to fix it, and 566 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: we've gotten it fixed and we spent six thousand dollars 567 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: fixing it whatever it is. Then when I go to 568 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: offer that painting to someone, I have to tell them 569 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: you can't see it, but right here, if you look 570 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: on the back, you feel you I do, yes, there's 571 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: a little mark here. The artist has looked at it 572 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: the artist has approved the work that was done at 573 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: it and chose the person to do it. But transparency 574 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: more art fraud in a minute, Alec, what did you 575 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: think of that moment when Marianne first told you your 576 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: treasured Sea and Mere painting was at all likelihood of fake? 577 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: Because that was really the moment. So I gather that 578 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: this hits home. How did that hit you emotionally? Well? 579 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: I think two things. One is I had to kind 580 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: of sort out in my head what Ross's involvement was. 581 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: That was very concerned about that and in any civil litigation. 582 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: Now Ross wound up giving me uh that he found 583 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: up making me a fact simile of seeing mirror that 584 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: I have in my home. Now I have the honest copy. 585 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: I said, give me the copy of the painting that is, 586 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 1: and then he gave me another painting to settle our dispute, 587 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: if you will. You know, it's a funny situation because 588 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, it was a fraud, but it was 589 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: a fraud enacted by the painter who painted the original. 590 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: See what's funny is when in the litigation he made 591 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: me the copy of C and mirror that I have 592 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: in my home, that is the genuine copy. Well, there 593 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: it is. It's true. When he wanted to put his 594 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: mind to it and get it right, he did. Yeah, 595 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: that's really bizarre. When the original painting arrives, it's not 596 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: even close. But when he's told to do it exactly 597 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: the copy, it's very close. It's it's pretty pretty spot on, 598 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: because you wonder how many more copies of it are 599 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: they're out there? If he could so handily render facsimiles 600 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: of Seeing Mirror than how many more were out there? 601 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: How many more people were told they were buying the 602 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: original painting? How many more canvases have written on the 603 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: back and the bin number that I had. But as 604 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: I said, once we wanted to open up a can 605 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: of worms, which would have discussed that, once we wanted 606 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: to speak in court about where else she might have 607 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: done this. They settled the case, you know, when all 608 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: this went down, and I had gone to the d 609 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: A to investigate our options and see what was going on. 610 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: You know, one aspect of it was that this was 611 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: also unnecessary. If I had been someone who had had 612 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,720 Speaker 1: some difficult relationship with Mary, if there's been some friction 613 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: between us, especially in the art world, if wanting to 614 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: settle a score with me, get even with me. I 615 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: didn't really know Mary on a personal level, so there 616 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: was really nothing between us that engendered that kind of treatment. 617 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: I couldn't understand why she would do that to me. 618 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: That's that's what really really upset me. And then I 619 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: thought to myself, that's the whole point. You can walk 620 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: in as a very innocent person who just as a 621 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: lover of arts. I mean, I realized I'm not spending 622 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars on a on a Polock. 623 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: It's not like the Lagrange case and and Friedman and 624 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,439 Speaker 1: Noodler and all that kind of stuff. I'm a guy 625 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: walking in buying something in the high five figures the 626 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: low six figures. But I'm wondering, I'm assuming that some 627 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: of us are like some of the bread and butter 628 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: of that business. And and even if we aren't, what's 629 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: the amount of money I need to spend on the 630 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: painting for you to treat me fairly. If I walked 631 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: in the door and you said, let me just tell 632 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: you this privately, Mary would say, now I'm going to 633 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: sell you a knockoff of bogus painting for the amount 634 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: of money you're willing to spend. But if you spend 635 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: more money, if you're willing to give me more money, 636 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: I'll actually go get you the painting. You won't, I 637 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: won't rip you off, which which was what did I 638 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: need to do to deserve the fair treatment. I didn't 639 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: understand any of why this happened. I guess I'll never know. Alec. 640 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: We started working on this podcast a little over a 641 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: year ago, and I remember at the time you said 642 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: that you believed and Freedman. Your opinion was that she 643 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: didn't know the paintings were fake and she hadn't sold 644 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: them as fakes, and I said, I felt just the opposite. 645 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: And so I wonder, after a whole year of immersing 646 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: ourselves in this podcast and talking to over two dozen experts, artists, lawyers, 647 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: and journalists, have your beliefs held firm? Do you still 648 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: think an Freeman had no idea she was complicit in 649 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 1: the forgery scheme? Well, I think that what has changed 650 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: is this idea that something hinges on everybody doing something 651 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: they've never done before. Whenever people walk into a room 652 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: and there's a time honored process they have, there's a 653 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: protocol they have, and all of a sudden they throw 654 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: that out the window, to the tune of tens of 655 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: millions of dollars. I made seventy million dollars and fake 656 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: aren't that was sold here this gallery. There was no excuse. 657 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: These people have no excuse. And Friedman Hammer everybody involved 658 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: in this case, these were the top people in the field. 659 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 1: And what they didn't know. They summoned experts to come 660 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: in and aid them and to counsel them on what 661 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: to do. What I believe now is Anne knew she 662 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't have done what she did, but she pressed forward. Well, then, 663 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: my friend, we are in agreement. I really believe that 664 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: people arrive at a place and they believe wrongly as 665 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: it turns out that there's no turning back. Turning back 666 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: in their mind was almost worse. They thought, let's see 667 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: what happens if we get away with it. And if 668 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: they got away with it, then everybody would be walking 669 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: around staring at a fake Rothco and everybody would be happy. 670 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: Who know, right? Really, the person I think who is 671 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: the hammer that just shatters the whole stone work of 672 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: this thing is Lagrange. When La Grange flies over here 673 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: and has an apoplectic fit against this woman, I mean 674 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: this is a guy who's just not going to be denied. 675 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: I agree with you. And then also just the sheer 676 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: number of fakes that began to come forward. You know, 677 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: you could believe a couple of them lacked provenance when 678 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: you're up to forty had all lacked provenace. This is 679 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: something that occurred to me when he came to speak 680 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 1: with us, and that is I thought, if this woman 681 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,879 Speaker 1: had gone into Anne and she'd had the least bit 682 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: of a whiff of insincerity since of theater, or something 683 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: being fabricated or false about her when I met her, 684 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: it all fell into place. I thought, who could go 685 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: in and do this to Anne? Who could fool Anne? 686 00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: Who wouldn't have to be enough to be somebody who 687 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: she's like a school teacher, She's like a kindergarten teacher. Yes, 688 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: I think that very day you said to me, you know, 689 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: I believe her. You didn't believe Anne, but you did 690 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:20,879 Speaker 1: believe Cofira. One thing I know for sure there were 691 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: sixty or so fake painting sold by the Wiseman and 692 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: no Oldler galleries. And it leaves me with a haunting thought, 693 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: where are those paintings today? We know the dess fake 694 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: Rothko ended up in Attorney Luke Nichols office a story 695 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: to tell curious clients. Francis Babies. Fake Clifford still found 696 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: its way to the basement, only to get misplaced, and 697 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: Friedman's own fake Pollock with the misspelled signature was still 698 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: hanging in her home last we heard. We also know 699 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: a few of the paintings made their way into legal 700 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: proceedings from various law suits. But what about the fifty 701 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: or so others. How many of those fakes have been 702 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: sold very quietly by buyers eager to expunge the stain 703 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 1: of fraud from their walls, Buyers who may have recouped 704 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: their losses illegally. Of course, perhaps they even profited, as 705 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: Ann Friedman assured them they would with paintings from the 706 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: David Herbert collection. And that's it for art fraud. Most 707 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: of the listeners of this show will never purchase a 708 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 1: piece of fine art in their lives. We hope you've 709 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: enjoyed this show, nonetheless, And for those who are real collectors, remember, 710 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: if you can fool and Friedman, you can fool anyone 711 00:43:54,480 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: used today the sweetness and the sorrow wish me luck 712 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: the same to you, But I can't regret what I 713 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:33,320 Speaker 1: did for love, What I did for love, Look my eyes. 714 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: Art Fraud is brought to you by I Heart Radio 715 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are Matt del Piano, 716 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:50,720 Speaker 1: Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself, and Michael Shnayerson. We're produced 717 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. Zack also edited and 718 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. How 719 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: A here is Michael Shnayerson. All Love