1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:35,996 Speaker 2: This is Talk Easy. I'm Stan Fragoso. 3 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 3: Welcome to the show. 4 00:00:50,796 --> 00:00:55,036 Speaker 2: Today we are joined by writer and podcaster Michael Lewis. 5 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:58,436 Speaker 2: He's the host of Against the Rules and the author 6 00:00:58,516 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 2: of several best selling books, including Liars, Poker, Moneyball, and 7 00:01:03,276 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 2: The Big Short. His latest is called Going Infinite, The 8 00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 2: Rise and Fall of a New Time. The tycoon in 9 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 2: question is Sam Bankman Freed, the FTX crypto mogul, who 10 00:01:16,156 --> 00:01:19,236 Speaker 2: was once listed by Forbes as the richest person in 11 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:23,956 Speaker 2: the world under thirty. That was until the cryptocurrency exchange 12 00:01:23,996 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 2: collapse last fall, when several billions from customers and investors 13 00:01:28,236 --> 00:01:32,596 Speaker 2: were lent to Alameda Research, a cryptocurrency trading firm co 14 00:01:32,676 --> 00:01:36,396 Speaker 2: founded by Bankman Freed. Sam now stands trial in a 15 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:39,956 Speaker 2: Manhattan federal court where he's been accused of orchestrating a 16 00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 2: scheme to siphon money from FTX into various political contributions, 17 00:01:44,636 --> 00:01:50,196 Speaker 2: real estate purchases, charitable donations, and venture investments. He currently 18 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 2: faces seven criminal counts, including wire fraud, conspiracy, and money laundering. 19 00:01:56,316 --> 00:01:59,796 Speaker 2: But at each twist and turn in Sam's improbable story, 20 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:03,156 Speaker 2: there's only one person that really had a front row 21 00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 2: seat to the action Michael Lewis. Since the publication of 22 00:02:07,556 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 2: Going Infinite in early October, the book has received a 23 00:02:11,196 --> 00:02:15,036 Speaker 2: wide array of reviews. The Guardian, for one, marveled at 24 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:19,236 Speaker 2: Lewis's ability to quote, pace, structure, and humanize a story 25 00:02:19,276 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 2: about something as dense and unfriendly as crypto. However, as 26 00:02:23,956 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 2: Michael and I discussed at the top, others have been 27 00:02:26,956 --> 00:02:30,796 Speaker 2: less charitable, including The New York Times, The Washington Post 28 00:02:31,036 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 2: and The Atlantic, each of which have suggested in one 29 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 2: way or another that Lewis grew too close to his 30 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 2: subject that he failed to demonstrate quote a healthy helping 31 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 2: of skepticism, as one Calmness wrote. But in my view, 32 00:02:46,556 --> 00:02:49,676 Speaker 2: the book, much like the subject at its center, is 33 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:53,476 Speaker 2: a bit more complicated than those descriptions, and so this 34 00:02:53,636 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 2: week I wanted to sit with Lewis to discuss the 35 00:02:56,076 --> 00:03:00,476 Speaker 2: thornier elements of Going Infinite, along with the whirlwind press 36 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 2: tour he's been on as bankman Freed remains on trial. 37 00:03:04,716 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 2: We also discuss Sam's belief in effective altruism and all 38 00:03:08,596 --> 00:03:11,196 Speaker 2: the ways in which he planned to use his money 39 00:03:11,476 --> 00:03:15,276 Speaker 2: for the greater good. And then, finally, in the last act, 40 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:19,636 Speaker 2: Michael reflects on his own journalistic philosophies and how he 41 00:03:19,716 --> 00:03:22,956 Speaker 2: managed to write this book in the aftermath of great 42 00:03:23,276 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 2: personal tragedy. That's all coming up next with our guest 43 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 2: and fellow Pushkin podcaster Michael Lewis. 44 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:32,796 Speaker 3: I hope you're intruct. 45 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:11,796 Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, Welcome back to the show. 46 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 1: Sam's good to see you. 47 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 2: How are you feeling anything interesting happening in your life? 48 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:19,356 Speaker 1: Well? Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm having an 49 00:04:19,396 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 1: experience I've had versions of before where book comes out 50 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:26,356 Speaker 1: and it just kind of goes nuts. It upsets some people. 51 00:04:26,316 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 2: A lot of people. 52 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, very angry. Yeah, a lot of people very angry. 53 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:30,956 Speaker 2: Why are they so mad at you? 54 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 1: So let me just back up a little bit. I've 55 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:37,236 Speaker 1: had people angry with me before. The first I don't know, 56 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:40,796 Speaker 1: six weeks of Moneyball was miserable, and it was miserable 57 00:04:40,796 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 1: because the people are right out of the gate, were 58 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:46,196 Speaker 1: people who were wedded to the old way of doing things, 59 00:04:46,196 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: and it was an insult to the old way of 60 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:48,916 Speaker 1: doing things. 61 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:50,636 Speaker 2: And as a Cubs fan, I was insulted. 62 00:04:50,796 --> 00:04:53,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, people were insulted. I'm trying to get my mind 63 00:04:53,596 --> 00:04:55,636 Speaker 1: around the anger this time because it's a little it's 64 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:59,836 Speaker 1: a little less clear. It's not universal, highly concentrated in 65 00:04:59,876 --> 00:05:03,516 Speaker 1: the United States, which is a little odd because you know, 66 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:06,676 Speaker 1: the book is about Sam Bekman freedom FTX, and the 67 00:05:06,796 --> 00:05:10,876 Speaker 1: vast majority of the losses are outside of the United States. 68 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:13,476 Speaker 1: The people who you would think would be angry because 69 00:05:13,516 --> 00:05:17,876 Speaker 1: they lost money are in Turkey, in China and India, 70 00:05:17,916 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 1: and the outrage is here. I mean even so, I 71 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:25,476 Speaker 1: just came back from touring in Ireland. In England and 72 00:05:25,876 --> 00:05:30,876 Speaker 1: the feeling near there is curiosity and a desire to understand. 73 00:05:31,436 --> 00:05:35,076 Speaker 2: Well, those are the guiding principles of this podcast. Yes, 74 00:05:35,676 --> 00:05:38,796 Speaker 2: we're the last interview you're doing on your press tour, 75 00:05:39,516 --> 00:05:42,876 Speaker 2: which I know you have not been overjoyed to do, 76 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 2: in part because the subject of your book is currently 77 00:05:47,196 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 2: on trial and has just announced that he will be 78 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:56,356 Speaker 2: testifying later this week. Sam Bankman Fried is the founder 79 00:05:56,436 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 2: of FTX, the cryptocurrency exchange. He plans to defend himself 80 00:06:01,676 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 2: against claims that he orchestrated a sweeping scheme to steal 81 00:06:05,516 --> 00:06:10,036 Speaker 2: as much as ten billion dollars in deposits from fts customers. 82 00:06:10,516 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 2: He's pleaded not guilty to seven charges of fraud, conspiracy, 83 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:18,516 Speaker 2: and money laundering. If convicted, he would face what amounts 84 00:06:18,556 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 2: to a life sentence. Now, you spent the better part 85 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:26,516 Speaker 2: of the last two years with Sam and his colleagues 86 00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:28,916 Speaker 2: and his family, first as a fly on the wall, 87 00:06:28,956 --> 00:06:32,716 Speaker 2: then as a kind of sounding board before we dive in. 88 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:37,196 Speaker 2: Are you surprised that Sam has elected to testify? And 89 00:06:37,276 --> 00:06:39,596 Speaker 2: more importantly, do you think it's a good idea? 90 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 1: Not surprised, because he's been adamant all along, and then 91 00:06:42,916 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 1: he would do. 92 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:45,556 Speaker 2: It if he got the medication required, If. 93 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 1: He got the medication required for ADHD right, And he's 94 00:06:48,316 --> 00:06:52,596 Speaker 1: been adamant all along about his feeling of his own innocence, 95 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:57,356 Speaker 1: has maintained all along the gap between his perception of 96 00:06:57,356 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 1: this event and the prosecutor's perception. So there was never 97 00:07:00,756 --> 00:07:03,876 Speaker 1: like there was never in the air ideal. It was never, oh, 98 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: let's talk to them about maybe five years in jail. 99 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: It was I think I'm innocent, and they think I 100 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:11,556 Speaker 1: should go to jail for life. So I knew that 101 00:07:11,596 --> 00:07:14,196 Speaker 1: he wanted to tell his story from the witness stand. 102 00:07:14,396 --> 00:07:17,396 Speaker 1: Is it a good idea? Every lawyer in the world 103 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:18,116 Speaker 1: would tell you no. 104 00:07:18,996 --> 00:07:22,716 Speaker 2: And it's including maybe his own father possibly who's an attorney. 105 00:07:22,836 --> 00:07:25,436 Speaker 1: The parents long ago learned that anything they try to 106 00:07:25,476 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 1: tell him backfires, so that they wouldn't be so unwise 107 00:07:29,396 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 1: as to give their advice because he just does the opposite. 108 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:34,636 Speaker 1: And the reason why it's a bad idea is interesting. 109 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 1: It isn't that like he can make it worse, because 110 00:07:38,676 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 1: it's already as bad as it really as he can get. 111 00:07:41,036 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: I mean, every lawyer in the world will also tell 112 00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:45,996 Speaker 1: you that the jury is likely to convict, so you 113 00:07:46,076 --> 00:07:47,436 Speaker 1: kind of think, well, why not. It's kind of a 114 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 1: hail Mary. But if the judge takes offense at his testimony, 115 00:07:52,956 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 1: if the judge thinks he purchases himself in the court 116 00:07:55,356 --> 00:07:58,196 Speaker 1: in his courtroom, the judge has a great latitude as 117 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 1: the sentencing, and the judge might just layer on some 118 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:03,316 Speaker 1: more years because of whatever Sam says on the stand. 119 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: And I know he's been told that, so he's running 120 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 1: that risk. And I have no idea. I haven't had 121 00:08:08,676 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 1: any contact with him since he was put in jail, 122 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: so I don't know what he's going to say. 123 00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 2: Have you tried to have contact with him. 124 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:16,556 Speaker 1: I floated the idea of going in to visit. I 125 00:08:16,596 --> 00:08:18,956 Speaker 1: had a few more questions. I wanted to put to him, 126 00:08:19,476 --> 00:08:22,676 Speaker 1: and everybody agreed it was a bad idea for him 127 00:08:22,676 --> 00:08:25,476 Speaker 1: to let me in because the prosecutors were already agitated 128 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 1: about my presence in his life. 129 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:31,356 Speaker 2: Now you've said that the prosecution has one story, the 130 00:08:31,396 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 2: defense has another story, which we're about to hear, which 131 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:36,676 Speaker 2: we're about to hear for the first time. You've said 132 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:40,236 Speaker 2: that you have the best story. Why do you think 133 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:40,556 Speaker 2: that is? 134 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: Because I had context for it all, Because I interviewed 135 00:08:43,196 --> 00:08:45,796 Speaker 1: all these people when things were good up until November 136 00:08:45,836 --> 00:08:48,316 Speaker 1: of last year. Everyone in the world wanted to be 137 00:08:48,356 --> 00:08:51,916 Speaker 1: aligned with Sam Begman freed. After November, everybody wanted to 138 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 1: The last thing they wanted was to have anything to 139 00:08:54,316 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 1: do with him or be aligned in any way. And 140 00:08:56,716 --> 00:08:59,876 Speaker 1: so I saw that. I saw both. I saw the 141 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 1: states of mind of the participants, which have now been 142 00:09:03,836 --> 00:09:06,036 Speaker 1: I think a little distorted on the witness stand and 143 00:09:06,076 --> 00:09:08,876 Speaker 1: distorted by social pressure. So I had just had a 144 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:12,036 Speaker 1: text for it all. Also, there's all kinds of stuff 145 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:16,196 Speaker 1: that isn't admissible in a courtroom. It would be important 146 00:09:16,236 --> 00:09:19,436 Speaker 1: for someone who's just curious about what happened, but that 147 00:09:19,636 --> 00:09:23,676 Speaker 1: is irrelevant to the legal proceedings. A couple of examples 148 00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:28,116 Speaker 1: the whole effective altruism angle, like what these people lived 149 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: in eight and breathes for and they really did all 150 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:33,636 Speaker 1: of them. That's not come up in the courtroom. You 151 00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:35,156 Speaker 1: kind of need to know that, you know, the kind 152 00:09:35,196 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: of the spirit in the air and the weirdness of 153 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:42,036 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Another example the fact that it's looking 154 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:43,996 Speaker 1: increasingly like all the customers are going to get their 155 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 1: money back. The bankruptcy people have said that they're eight 156 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:50,476 Speaker 1: point six billion dollars in customer deposits that are missing, 157 00:09:50,476 --> 00:09:53,156 Speaker 1: that they found seven point three and they're sitting on 158 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 1: at least one one private investment that seems to be 159 00:09:56,916 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 1: worth several billion dollars. That's not admissible in the courtroom. 160 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:03,116 Speaker 1: It's sort of like when you tell someone over dinner that, oh, 161 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 1: by the way, there's likely to be close to full recovery. 162 00:10:07,276 --> 00:10:08,556 Speaker 1: Their jaws are on the floor. What do you mean, 163 00:10:08,556 --> 00:10:10,596 Speaker 1: I thought he stole all the money? Well, he put 164 00:10:10,636 --> 00:10:12,476 Speaker 1: the money in the wrong place and used it for 165 00:10:12,516 --> 00:10:14,116 Speaker 1: his own purposes when he should have and he put 166 00:10:14,156 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: people at risk that he shouldn't have put at risk, 167 00:10:15,996 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 1: which is a crime, which is all of course. So 168 00:10:18,756 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 1: it's like the courtroom has a very narrow purpose, and 169 00:10:21,916 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: my purpose is just much broader. 170 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 2: If we had had dinner in October of twenty twenty two, 171 00:10:27,996 --> 00:10:32,156 Speaker 2: at that point, FDx had ten million account holders, to 172 00:10:32,196 --> 00:10:34,916 Speaker 2: whom it owed eight point seven billion dollars. It had 173 00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:37,676 Speaker 2: generated a billion dollars in twenty twenty one, it was 174 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 2: likely to do the same in twenty twenty two, even 175 00:10:39,756 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 2: despite crypto prices crashing. It was on the surface a 176 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:46,996 Speaker 2: booming business, with venture capitalists suggesting that Sam could be 177 00:10:47,436 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 2: the first trillionaire. So if we were to have that dinner, 178 00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:54,196 Speaker 2: how would you explain the book you were writing at 179 00:10:54,196 --> 00:10:54,596 Speaker 2: the time. 180 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: It's funny you asked this question because I had that 181 00:10:57,076 --> 00:11:00,436 Speaker 1: dinner at the very beginning of November with a friend 182 00:11:00,476 --> 00:11:03,196 Speaker 1: who was a film director. It wasn't a dinner, it 183 00:11:03,236 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 1: was a cup coffee. But I really like his storytelling, 184 00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:08,836 Speaker 1: Chops like, I really kind of He's a good sounding board. 185 00:11:09,276 --> 00:11:11,316 Speaker 1: And the point of the conversation was, I don't know 186 00:11:11,356 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 1: if I have a book, and so I've been sitting 187 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:15,236 Speaker 1: with this guy for a year. Let me just tell 188 00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:17,916 Speaker 1: you this material, and let me tell you why I 189 00:11:17,956 --> 00:11:19,636 Speaker 1: haven't decided whether I'm going to write it. Or not, 190 00:11:20,156 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 1: and I sort of laid out what I knew about 191 00:11:23,076 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 1: Sam Bankman Freed. I laid out it was effectively the 192 00:11:25,076 --> 00:11:26,316 Speaker 1: first six chapters of the book. 193 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:27,236 Speaker 2: So how did you do that? 194 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 1: In conversation, I said, here's this character, born without a 195 00:11:32,156 --> 00:11:35,796 Speaker 1: full complement of human feeling, born without empathy, born without 196 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:40,396 Speaker 1: ability to feel pleasure, who lives a completely isolated childhood, 197 00:11:40,876 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 1: isolated beyond belief, given that he's being raised by two 198 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 1: Stanford law professors on the Stanford campus who were quite 199 00:11:46,276 --> 00:11:49,276 Speaker 1: social people themselves and had a brother, and had a 200 00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 1: brother who regarded him as a tenant in the house 201 00:11:51,236 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 1: because he didn't have anything to do with each other. 202 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 1: This person sort of compensates for what he lacks by 203 00:11:57,996 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 1: taking what he can do and imposing it on the world. 204 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:05,796 Speaker 1: What he can do is math calculations. He can think quantitatively, analytically, 205 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:08,116 Speaker 1: and so he kind of turns life into this math 206 00:12:08,196 --> 00:12:11,556 Speaker 1: problem and would seem to not fit anywhere in the 207 00:12:11,596 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: world until he collides with Wall Street Wall Street and 208 00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:18,396 Speaker 1: its modern incarnation, high frequency trading, And when he collides 209 00:12:18,436 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 1: with that, he finds what he thinks is special about himself. 210 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:26,276 Speaker 1: It's a particular kind of problem solving. It isn't exactly math. 211 00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: It's making decisions, aren't calculations in semi chaotic environments, environments 212 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 1: where there isn't you can't get to a right answer. 213 00:12:35,196 --> 00:12:37,596 Speaker 1: You can just get to a better answer. It's not 214 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:40,396 Speaker 1: playing chess. It's playing chess on a clock where you 215 00:12:40,436 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 1: have to make a move every five seconds and the 216 00:12:42,156 --> 00:12:44,876 Speaker 1: rules change, like the rules change every five minutes, so 217 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 1: the pieces the queen's become pawns or whatever. So you're 218 00:12:48,436 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 1: dealing with this kind of chaotic environment. But where it 219 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:55,396 Speaker 1: does help to have a quantitative, analytical kind of aptitude, 220 00:12:55,956 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 1: and it happens to be Those are the kind of 221 00:12:57,956 --> 00:13:01,196 Speaker 1: tests they put him through. His Jane Street is his 222 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:03,636 Speaker 1: high frequency trading for him in order to before they 223 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:07,476 Speaker 1: hire him, and he's exceptional at it, and this defines him. 224 00:13:07,956 --> 00:13:10,236 Speaker 1: And what I'm telling the film Rector is I'm so 225 00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:14,156 Speaker 1: interested in this character because he goes from being having 226 00:13:14,236 --> 00:13:16,676 Speaker 1: no place in the world to sitting at the center 227 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:20,196 Speaker 1: of the world. He goes from being nobody to being, 228 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 1: you know, the richest person in the world under thirty 229 00:13:22,956 --> 00:13:25,636 Speaker 1: and he's an octopus with his tentacles everywhere. 230 00:13:25,716 --> 00:13:27,916 Speaker 2: At that point, what did the center look like. 231 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: The center is bizarre because of where he is is 232 00:13:32,236 --> 00:13:34,596 Speaker 1: the Bahamas. He's in the jungle hut you know that 233 00:13:35,036 --> 00:13:38,556 Speaker 1: with and in a fancy condominium that he sleeps in. 234 00:13:38,596 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: But the office is this nondescript hout in the middle 235 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:43,876 Speaker 1: of the jungle in the southern part of the main 236 00:13:43,916 --> 00:13:46,156 Speaker 1: island of the Bahamas. But what does it look like? 237 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:52,076 Speaker 1: It looks like the fanciest, most celebrity drenched dinner party 238 00:13:52,116 --> 00:13:55,156 Speaker 1: you've ever been to. You name the famous person in 239 00:13:55,196 --> 00:13:58,916 Speaker 1: there there and the person who you don't recognize, Sam 240 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:01,396 Speaker 1: Bankman Freed in shorts and a T shirt and droopy 241 00:14:01,396 --> 00:14:03,556 Speaker 1: white sox with his hair all over the place is 242 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:06,956 Speaker 1: the center of attention. Everybody's around, hanging on every word, 243 00:14:07,236 --> 00:14:10,116 Speaker 1: and he's just starting to have in luance every which way. 244 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:12,236 Speaker 1: And so the question is like, what is this telling 245 00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 1: us about the world? That was always what interested me 246 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 1: about him. So I'm telling the film director this story. 247 00:14:16,916 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 1: It takes me an hour to get through it, and 248 00:14:18,156 --> 00:14:21,236 Speaker 1: he says, this is interesting. He says, you have a 249 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:24,276 Speaker 1: problem that this story does not have a third act. 250 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 1: You don't know where it's going, so you don't have 251 00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:28,756 Speaker 1: an ending. So it's not a movie, he said. He said, 252 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:30,356 Speaker 1: but you're a good enough writer. You can fool the 253 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: reader into thinking you have an ending, and you probably 254 00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:35,796 Speaker 1: it's also interesting. You should probably just write it. Three 255 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 1: days later, FTX falls apart and he writes and says, 256 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 1: can I direct the movie? It's like, this is incredible. 257 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 2: You mentioned in court that they have not brought in 258 00:14:47,516 --> 00:14:52,556 Speaker 2: effective altruism, which is sort of his entire mode of 259 00:14:52,556 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 2: operation is based on. That. Is that what initially brought 260 00:14:57,116 --> 00:14:59,276 Speaker 2: you into the story, that made you interested in him. 261 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:01,356 Speaker 1: It was one of the things that made me interested 262 00:15:01,396 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 1: in him. I had this long standing curiosity about effective altruism. 263 00:15:05,916 --> 00:15:09,596 Speaker 1: I didn't know the name, but back in I would 264 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:10,836 Speaker 1: it had been. It had been about the time Sam 265 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:13,876 Speaker 1: was starting on Wall Street twenty twelve, thirteen fourteen. I 266 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:17,636 Speaker 1: started to hear from friends about this guy they'd hired. 267 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 1: It wasn't Sam, some other person who had come to 268 00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:23,836 Speaker 1: work at some Wall Street firm, not because he wanted 269 00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:25,876 Speaker 1: to get rich, or rather not because he wanted to 270 00:15:25,876 --> 00:15:27,916 Speaker 1: get rich for himself, because he wanted to make money 271 00:15:27,956 --> 00:15:29,636 Speaker 1: to give it all away. And I thought it was 272 00:15:29,676 --> 00:15:32,156 Speaker 1: such a seditious idea when I first heard it, and 273 00:15:32,276 --> 00:15:34,636 Speaker 1: kind of a fun idea. I thought this like might 274 00:15:34,676 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 1: be the one thing that could sink Wall Street is 275 00:15:36,356 --> 00:15:38,076 Speaker 1: that everybody there was actually there just to give the 276 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: money away. So I had taken a slight interest in 277 00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 1: it long ago without knowing what it was, and that 278 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 1: when I finally meet this dude who actually has done 279 00:15:47,676 --> 00:15:50,076 Speaker 1: this in such a big way, it's one of the 280 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 1: things that interests me. 281 00:15:51,316 --> 00:15:54,876 Speaker 2: So you two go on a hike that first meeting. 282 00:15:55,276 --> 00:15:57,796 Speaker 1: A walk, A walk, a two hour walk, A two 283 00:15:57,796 --> 00:15:58,276 Speaker 1: hour walk. 284 00:15:58,356 --> 00:16:02,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want to overemphasize his athletic prowess, yes 285 00:16:02,396 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 2: or mine? You used to play baseball? Come on, come on, 286 00:16:06,436 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 2: so tell me when you replay that converse now, can 287 00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:14,836 Speaker 2: you still recall what exactly pushed you over the edge 288 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:17,076 Speaker 2: to say I need to spend the next couple of 289 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:17,996 Speaker 2: years of my life with him. 290 00:16:18,076 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 1: I didn't say I need to spend the next couple 291 00:16:19,476 --> 00:16:20,716 Speaker 1: of years of my life with him. I said to 292 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:25,076 Speaker 1: him at the end of two hours, this is so strange. 293 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:26,956 Speaker 1: Can I just come watch? I just want to be 294 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:28,836 Speaker 1: an observer in your life for a while and see 295 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:31,476 Speaker 1: what there is to do here, and the things that 296 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 1: struck me as strange or interesting won the sums of 297 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:38,156 Speaker 1: money Forbes was either had just we was about to 298 00:16:38,156 --> 00:16:40,276 Speaker 1: declare him worth twenty two and a half billion dollars. 299 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:44,876 Speaker 1: He was a child of two liberal law professors at Stanford. Clearly, 300 00:16:45,316 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 1: in most other moments in human history, he would have 301 00:16:47,796 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 1: been at best like a physics professor. He wasn't interested 302 00:16:50,556 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 1: in money the way Wall Street people normally are, so 303 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 1: that it was a different vibe about the money. It 304 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:57,516 Speaker 1: was like more ambitious in when I'm going to use 305 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: it to do the fact he was quite open about 306 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,796 Speaker 1: how he was meddling in politics. He was The newspapers 307 00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:05,796 Speaker 1: had him as Biden's second biggest donor. He said, no, 308 00:17:05,836 --> 00:17:07,676 Speaker 1: I'm actually only the seventh. But still it's going to 309 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: get very big. He was talking about a billion dollars 310 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,756 Speaker 1: into the next presidential election site. I thought that's just wild. 311 00:17:13,996 --> 00:17:16,676 Speaker 1: He said something that was really interesting to me. He said, 312 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: there's not enough money in politics, and I thought, I 313 00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: have always had the opposite view, and I thought, but 314 00:17:23,076 --> 00:17:25,916 Speaker 1: his point was, when you see what the stakes are, 315 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 1: and you see that the rules have changed to allow 316 00:17:28,796 --> 00:17:30,996 Speaker 1: rich people to do basically whatever they want to do, 317 00:17:31,436 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 1: it's amazing that rich people aren't doing even more that 318 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:35,876 Speaker 1: that was a very interesting kind of take on the 319 00:17:35,876 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 1: whole thing, and if he was going to follow through 320 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:39,756 Speaker 1: on this, he was going to be a big deal 321 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:43,956 Speaker 1: in the elections. But by that point, the crypto markets 322 00:17:43,956 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 1: had gone from being worth you know, cryptos as a 323 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 1: as an asset class, gone from being worth zero in 324 00:17:50,916 --> 00:17:54,156 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight to two trillion dollars, and I 325 00:17:54,196 --> 00:17:56,796 Speaker 1: had taken I was thinking, I wonder what the social 326 00:17:56,836 --> 00:17:59,876 Speaker 1: consequences of that kind of instant wealth creation is. Like, 327 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:01,796 Speaker 1: You've got people walking around two trillion dollars in their 328 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 1: pocket who didn't have anything before, and here was this 329 00:18:04,876 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 1: walking example of it that crypto had yielded it for 330 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 1: him in a matter of eighteen months, twenty two billion dollars. 331 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 1: I was kind of thinking, like, maybe he's a way 332 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: to get it that, like the social consequences, So I 333 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:16,836 Speaker 1: just went and loitered for a year. 334 00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:20,436 Speaker 2: So as you're loitering, he begins to explain that this 335 00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 2: effect of altruism, in part comes from Will mccaskell. This 336 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:31,036 Speaker 2: earn to give philosophy should you do good or make 337 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 2: money and pay other people to do good? That anyone 338 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:37,476 Speaker 2: basically with the ability to go to wall Street has 339 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:40,836 Speaker 2: something like a moral obligation to do so. But when 340 00:18:40,876 --> 00:18:44,316 Speaker 2: it comes to Sam, he described himself in one exchange 341 00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:47,756 Speaker 2: with a colleague as quote, not really having a soul. 342 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:51,196 Speaker 2: In the end, there's a pretty decent argument that my 343 00:18:51,276 --> 00:18:54,876 Speaker 2: empathy is fake, my feelings are fake, my facial reactions 344 00:18:54,916 --> 00:18:58,676 Speaker 2: are fake. You yourself said that he does not have the 345 00:18:58,796 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 2: full complement of human feelings. He does not have empathy. 346 00:19:02,676 --> 00:19:06,676 Speaker 2: So if everything in his life is fake, do you 347 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:10,236 Speaker 2: believe his interest and effective altruism. 348 00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:14,556 Speaker 1: Is fake his reasons not fake? Isn't explain that, Well, 349 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:16,876 Speaker 1: he's not attracted to effective altruism because he's got an 350 00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:20,676 Speaker 1: emotional attachment to other people. I mean, the mistake people 351 00:19:20,716 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: make is, oh, you're an effective altress because you really 352 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 1: cared deeply about other people, like individual other people. You're 353 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 1: saying he cares about mind, cares about math and humanity. 354 00:19:29,676 --> 00:19:32,476 Speaker 1: Is like that seemed abstractly to be something he should 355 00:19:32,516 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 1: be servicing, and the math is this is the best 356 00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:38,196 Speaker 1: way to do that. Peter Singer would be the oldest 357 00:19:38,196 --> 00:19:40,276 Speaker 1: living sort of exponent of this. That you have the 358 00:19:40,276 --> 00:19:43,156 Speaker 1: idea that you have. The Singer idea is that you 359 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 1: have you have a duty not just to the people 360 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 1: around you, but to people you don't even know. The 361 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:52,196 Speaker 1: argument is, you have an obligation to give if sort 362 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:54,356 Speaker 1: of the cost to you is less than the benefit 363 00:19:54,516 --> 00:19:55,996 Speaker 1: to others, it's a hard way to live. 364 00:19:56,076 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 2: Did you buy that way of living? 365 00:19:57,956 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 1: I admired the spirit of it. I admired the idea 366 00:20:01,556 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 1: of expanding your circle of empathy or caring about people. 367 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:09,956 Speaker 1: To get someone to buy in that into that argument, 368 00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:12,236 Speaker 1: don't go be a doctor in Africa, but instead go 369 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 1: be a banker and pay to have ten doctors go 370 00:20:14,116 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 1: to Africa. It really helps if they don't actually get 371 00:20:17,356 --> 00:20:21,356 Speaker 1: any emotional benefit to physically helping other people, you know, 372 00:20:21,796 --> 00:20:24,076 Speaker 1: there's no feeling there to start with, they just buy 373 00:20:24,076 --> 00:20:26,756 Speaker 1: the argument. But once you're in this argument and the 374 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 1: argument is about, and this is what these philosophers that 375 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:33,516 Speaker 1: are at Oxford eventually do. They morph the movement away 376 00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:38,516 Speaker 1: from helping living people on the planet now to maximizing 377 00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:41,556 Speaker 1: the lives you say, for all eternity. And so this 378 00:20:41,636 --> 00:20:44,156 Speaker 1: is the real weirdness to the movement that Sam buys into, 379 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:46,996 Speaker 1: and that actually the movement buys into is when it 380 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:50,076 Speaker 1: flips to existential risk. And Sam, if you when I 381 00:20:50,116 --> 00:20:53,236 Speaker 1: meet him, he's on the practical end of the spectrum 382 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 1: of the people in this conversation because he's thinking, yeah, 383 00:20:57,036 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 1: there's this list of risks less asteroid strikes or climate 384 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 1: change or AI for example, pandemic or pandemic prevention, and 385 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 1: or Donald Trump's democracy or actually the actually Donald Trump 386 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:11,516 Speaker 1: is on his list. There is a kind of like 387 00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:14,756 Speaker 1: ven diagram. It's the risks in one circle, but the 388 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:18,156 Speaker 1: tractability of them in another circle. Like some of these things, 389 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 1: you don't know what to do about them. I mean, 390 00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 1: what do you give money to just to prevent AI 391 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 1: from right now? It's very hard to know. But when 392 00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:26,596 Speaker 1: we were on that walk, one of the things that 393 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:28,476 Speaker 1: did interest me was, I just come out of writing 394 00:21:28,516 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 1: the Premonition. It was appalling to me the governments weren't 395 00:21:32,796 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 1: being more aggressive on the subject of especially building a 396 00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: better a kind of better prediction a model for disease. 397 00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:44,956 Speaker 1: There is every reason why we should be building essentially 398 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:48,876 Speaker 1: a national weather service for disease. And the lack of 399 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:51,836 Speaker 1: real energy behind that movement, not that it doesn't exist, 400 00:21:51,916 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 1: it's just sort of lack of energy was shocking to me. 401 00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:57,876 Speaker 1: And it was really interesting to me that a private 402 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 1: citizen was talking about generating the wealth he needed in 403 00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:04,236 Speaker 1: order to do such a thing. So that partly interested 404 00:22:04,276 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 1: me too. 405 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:09,276 Speaker 2: So if that describes like the principled approach to his work, 406 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:13,116 Speaker 2: I want people to understand how he views life probabilistically. 407 00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:15,356 Speaker 2: And to do that, I thought we'd read from a 408 00:22:15,436 --> 00:22:18,876 Speaker 2: chapter of your book entitled how to Think about Bob? 409 00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:20,836 Speaker 1: Who do you want me to do it? You want 410 00:22:20,876 --> 00:22:22,956 Speaker 1: to do it? You talk easier than I do, so 411 00:22:22,996 --> 00:22:26,836 Speaker 1: you know, look, all right, that's funny. You pick this 412 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 1: passage because I think it's like an important passage. 413 00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 2: It is against the rules for me to read your book. 414 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:33,676 Speaker 1: Okay, do you. 415 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:35,836 Speaker 2: Want to set up any context for this or does it? So? 416 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:37,556 Speaker 1: I'll do some content. I'll do a little context so 417 00:22:37,596 --> 00:22:40,356 Speaker 1: that this is the this is the foreshadowing of the 418 00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: collapse that's going to happen. Four years later, Sam has 419 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,196 Speaker 1: just started a crypto trading hedge fund with nothing but 420 00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: a bunch of effective altrusts. Within two months, they're at 421 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 1: each other's throats, and half the effect of altrus think 422 00:22:52,756 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: Sam is either so catastrophically disorganized and chaotic or possibly 423 00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: criminal that they up and quit, and the immediate subject 424 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:05,876 Speaker 1: of conversation is some money that's been missing, just like 425 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:09,916 Speaker 1: not like stolen, but like lost, like you lost your keys. 426 00:23:09,956 --> 00:23:11,836 Speaker 2: And this is not money lost at FTX. 427 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 1: No, this is alimeter research before FTX. 428 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 2: This is another project. 429 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:18,836 Speaker 1: This is back in twenty eighteen. And the money is 430 00:23:19,076 --> 00:23:22,676 Speaker 1: in the form of a crypto tooken called ripple, and 431 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,236 Speaker 1: so I'll start with that. Sam is arguing, we don't 432 00:23:25,236 --> 00:23:27,956 Speaker 1: need to worry about the ripple, it'll turn up. His 433 00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 1: colleagues are arguing, that's four million dollars of other people's 434 00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 1: money we should worry about it. 435 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:35,516 Speaker 2: Sounds awfully familiar to Yes, the reframe we've been hearing lately. 436 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 1: This is exactly right. The missing Ripple reminded him of 437 00:23:39,396 --> 00:23:42,676 Speaker 1: a favorite thought experiment. You have a close friend, Bob, 438 00:23:42,956 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: he explained, he being Sam. He's great, you love him. 439 00:23:46,396 --> 00:23:48,756 Speaker 1: Bob is at a house party where someone gets murdered. 440 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:51,676 Speaker 1: No one knows who the murderer is. There are twenty 441 00:23:51,716 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 1: people there. None are criminals. But Bob is less likely 442 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:57,556 Speaker 1: in your mind than anyone else to have killed someone. 443 00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:01,396 Speaker 1: But you can't say that there's zero chance Bob killed someone. 444 00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:04,756 Speaker 1: Someone got killed, no one knows who did it. You 445 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:07,036 Speaker 1: now think there's like a one percent chance Bob did it. 446 00:24:07,596 --> 00:24:10,356 Speaker 1: How do you see Bob now? What is Bob to you? 447 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 1: And there's no updating, there's no new information about Bob. 448 00:24:14,236 --> 00:24:16,476 Speaker 1: One answer was that you should never go near Bob again. 449 00:24:17,036 --> 00:24:19,196 Speaker 1: There might be a ninety nine percent chance that Bob 450 00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:21,116 Speaker 1: is the saint you always thought him to be, but 451 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:24,596 Speaker 1: if you're wrong, you're dead. Treating Bob's character as a 452 00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:28,556 Speaker 1: matter of probability felt problematic. Bob was either a cold 453 00:24:28,556 --> 00:24:32,436 Speaker 1: blooded killer or he wasn't. Whatever probability you assigned before 454 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:35,076 Speaker 1: you found out the truth about Bob would appear after 455 00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:39,516 Speaker 1: the fact unfair and even absurd. There doesn't exist a 456 00:24:39,556 --> 00:24:42,196 Speaker 1: guess you can make that is overwhelmingly likely to be 457 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:46,556 Speaker 1: roughly correct, said Sam. Bob is either completely blameless or 458 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 1: far more guilty, and yet assigning a probability to Bob's 459 00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: character was, in Sam's view, the only way to think 460 00:24:53,156 --> 00:24:56,916 Speaker 1: about him, or indeed any uncertain situation. It's not good 461 00:24:57,036 --> 00:24:58,716 Speaker 1: enough to say Bob's not the kind of guy I 462 00:24:58,756 --> 00:25:01,276 Speaker 1: want to be around. So what is the probability at 463 00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:03,756 Speaker 1: which you say, Okay, I'm going to just stay away 464 00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:06,916 Speaker 1: from Bob until this was resolved, said Sam. It's sort 465 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 1: of mind bending. There's no way to deal with Bob 466 00:25:09,716 --> 00:25:11,116 Speaker 1: right now. That's just. 467 00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 2: The next line is my favorite, which I'll do okay. 468 00:25:16,316 --> 00:25:21,276 Speaker 2: Life's uncertainties often made a mockery of a probabilistic approach, 469 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 2: but in Sam's view, there was really no other approach 470 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:27,716 Speaker 2: to take. A lot of things are like Bob, said Sam. 471 00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 2: I thought that the ripple was like Bob would either 472 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,276 Speaker 2: get it back or not. I like how you were 473 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:36,836 Speaker 2: mouthing your own words as I was reading that. 474 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,396 Speaker 1: Sorry about that. Yeah, I laugh at my own jokes too, 475 00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:44,516 Speaker 1: so I'm sorry about that. The punchline in this is 476 00:25:44,556 --> 00:25:48,556 Speaker 1: that over the ripple, the ten effective altrus is quit 477 00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 1: and then they find the ripple, confirming in the minds 478 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 1: of the other people who stayed behind, a group that 479 00:25:55,516 --> 00:25:58,756 Speaker 1: includes the current witnesses in the trial and the shots 480 00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 1: seeing Caroline Ellison and Gary Wang, that Sam was kind 481 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:02,236 Speaker 1: of right all along. 482 00:26:02,676 --> 00:26:05,956 Speaker 2: So he is redeemed in some way. But what do 483 00:26:05,996 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 2: you think that story in terms of foreshadowing, What do 484 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:13,276 Speaker 2: you think that story tells us about his way of 485 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:15,716 Speaker 2: moving through the world, about his psychology that. 486 00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:20,196 Speaker 1: He doesn't have firm principles. Everything is shifting odds. 487 00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:24,436 Speaker 2: Which could be a problem when running a company. Yes, 488 00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 2: what you're saying is reminded me of a passage of 489 00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:33,956 Speaker 2: a piece of writing that actually comes from Sam's mother, Barbara. 490 00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:36,476 Speaker 2: She wrote an essay. We haven't really talked about Sam's 491 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:40,636 Speaker 2: parents much, but they both were Stanford law professors. By 492 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 2: all accounts, upstanding, downful people, accomplished in their respective fields. 493 00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 2: But she wrote an essay in twenty twelve in The 494 00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:51,836 Speaker 2: Boston Review titled Beyond Blame. Have you read this? 495 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 1: I've heard it. 496 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 2: I want to read a little bit from it. The 497 00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:59,236 Speaker 2: piece is about the philosophy of personal responsibility and how 498 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:03,356 Speaker 2: it is ruined criminal justice and economic policy, and how 499 00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:06,436 Speaker 2: it's time to move past blame, which is exactly, by 500 00:27:06,436 --> 00:27:08,756 Speaker 2: the way, when I did something wrong as a child, 501 00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:11,756 Speaker 2: that exactly how my mom would render how we should 502 00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 2: move forward, which I don't think we should really blame. 503 00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:19,236 Speaker 2: My mom was also an attorney, so she writes in 504 00:27:19,276 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 2: the piece, the reality is that we are all at 505 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:30,036 Speaker 2: best compromised agents, whether by biology, social circumstance, or brute luck. Tellingly, 506 00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:33,836 Speaker 2: the more information people have about the context of the crime, 507 00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:37,236 Speaker 2: the person who committed it and the circumstances he or 508 00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 2: she came from. The more nuanced are their views of 509 00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 2: moral responsibility. 510 00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:43,516 Speaker 1: What do you think of that? 511 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:44,716 Speaker 2: What do you think of that? 512 00:27:44,796 --> 00:27:45,716 Speaker 1: Now? What do you think of that? 513 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:47,156 Speaker 2: No, what do you think of that? 514 00:27:47,196 --> 00:27:49,276 Speaker 1: Well? I think it's interesting that the second part of 515 00:27:49,316 --> 00:27:52,196 Speaker 1: it is just a statement of fact. I think I 516 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:54,396 Speaker 1: think it is true that the more you know about 517 00:27:54,436 --> 00:27:56,436 Speaker 1: the circumstances of any crime, the more you know about 518 00:27:56,436 --> 00:27:59,596 Speaker 1: the person, the more complicated your response is to it. 519 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:02,956 Speaker 1: And that we also live in a society that isn't 520 00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:06,076 Speaker 1: terribly interested in that, that we jail people at a 521 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:09,916 Speaker 1: rate that's unseen anywhere out in the world, right to punish. 522 00:28:10,316 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 1: I think that's an interesting point of view, and I 523 00:28:11,996 --> 00:28:15,716 Speaker 1: think I think she's that observation is not wrong. Is 524 00:28:15,716 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 1: it a useful way to parent your child that, I 525 00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:21,156 Speaker 1: don't know, like teaching them that you we're not gonna 526 00:28:21,156 --> 00:28:23,956 Speaker 1: blame you for anything. I don't parent my child that way. 527 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:27,636 Speaker 2: I guess what I'm getting at. Early in this conversation, 528 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:31,636 Speaker 2: you said Sam's parents had long given up trying to 529 00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 2: teach him anything. It seems to me that maybe they 530 00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 2: didn't get a lot of things through but they seem 531 00:28:38,436 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 2: to have crafted part of his guiding principles. 532 00:28:42,076 --> 00:28:45,676 Speaker 1: So this is true. It's also interesting how he and 533 00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: his brother view this because he and his brother emerged 534 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 1: from this household self conscious utilitarians consequentialists. You move through 535 00:28:54,076 --> 00:28:58,916 Speaker 1: life evaluating your decisions, evaluating your actions, evaluating other people 536 00:28:59,396 --> 00:29:02,356 Speaker 1: based on their consequences rather than their intent. And the 537 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 1: principle you are gunning for is the greatest good for 538 00:29:05,276 --> 00:29:08,236 Speaker 1: the greatest number. So when you see something like the 539 00:29:08,276 --> 00:29:11,756 Speaker 1: famous trolley problem where you're on a trolley and the 540 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:14,076 Speaker 1: trolley's rolling down the track and it's about to roll 541 00:29:14,116 --> 00:29:16,396 Speaker 1: over four people, but you can pull a switch and 542 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:18,676 Speaker 1: send it on a side rail that kills only one person, 543 00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:20,676 Speaker 1: doesn't even occur to you not to pull the switch. 544 00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:23,356 Speaker 1: They don't have a problem with that kind of thing. 545 00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:27,116 Speaker 1: It's like you're evaluating actions based on their consequences. You 546 00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:31,116 Speaker 1: were trying to maximize good and minimize bad. The brut 547 00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 1: but I was going to say, is that this isn't 548 00:29:32,836 --> 00:29:35,196 Speaker 1: from Sam, this is from his brother. Because I pushed on, 549 00:29:35,276 --> 00:29:36,756 Speaker 1: I pushed on both of them. I said, it is 550 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:39,756 Speaker 1: kind of amazing that you two both think you've come 551 00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:42,756 Speaker 1: to your own principles all by yourself, but they happened 552 00:29:42,796 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 1: to be kind of close to your parents' principles. They 553 00:29:45,396 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 1: extended their parents' principles like their parents were not fond 554 00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:51,436 Speaker 1: of effective altruism, very hostile to it in fact. But Gabe, 555 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:54,916 Speaker 1: Sam's brother, said, this looks like, oh, our parents influenced us, 556 00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 1: and surely they must have in some way, but in 557 00:29:58,236 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 1: real time, it felt like we came to these ideas ourselves. 558 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:05,276 Speaker 1: So it's funny how they interpreted this. The point isn't 559 00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 1: that Sam wasn't influenced by his parents. The point was 560 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:10,356 Speaker 1: Sam resisted the eye idea that he was influenced by 561 00:30:10,356 --> 00:30:12,556 Speaker 1: his parents at the same time he was influenced by 562 00:30:12,596 --> 00:30:13,036 Speaker 1: his parents. 563 00:30:13,116 --> 00:30:14,796 Speaker 2: Is that because he thinks anyone over the age of 564 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:17,036 Speaker 2: forty five is meaningless and useless. 565 00:30:17,556 --> 00:30:21,076 Speaker 1: Yes. I think it's because he had vanity about his 566 00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:24,956 Speaker 1: own mind, and part of the vanity was everything that 567 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:28,276 Speaker 1: happened into it in it was his doing. It was 568 00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:31,596 Speaker 1: very hard to get him to point to influences. He 569 00:30:31,716 --> 00:30:33,956 Speaker 1: sort of liked the idea that he was thinking everything 570 00:30:34,036 --> 00:30:43,116 Speaker 1: up by himself. From first Principles. 571 00:30:40,636 --> 00:31:07,516 Speaker 2: Were bright back with writer Michael Lewis coming back why 572 00:31:07,516 --> 00:31:10,436 Speaker 2: don't we talk about some of who is doing Because 573 00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:14,396 Speaker 2: from November two to November twelfth of twenty twenty two, 574 00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:20,316 Speaker 2: FTX goes from having seemingly limitless potential to being on. 575 00:31:20,716 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 1: Its last legs, being bankrupt. 576 00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:27,796 Speaker 2: I was being generous. Now that we're a year removed 577 00:31:27,796 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 2: from that ten day catastrophe, how do you understand what happened? 578 00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 1: So this is my best guest. I mean this is 579 00:31:35,596 --> 00:31:38,236 Speaker 1: also taking some stuff that came up in the trial. 580 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:43,476 Speaker 1: You start with a person who is vain about his 581 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 1: risk management abilities, thinks he's maybe like God's gift to 582 00:31:47,116 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 1: managing financial risk. You couple it with a character who 583 00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:56,676 Speaker 1: has almost psychological need for a chaotic environment. So I 584 00:31:56,716 --> 00:32:01,036 Speaker 1: think in the very beginning they create FTX, they don't 585 00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:03,596 Speaker 1: do the first thing you would do is segregate the 586 00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:06,596 Speaker 1: customer's funds from your funds. They didn't do this in 587 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:09,676 Speaker 1: the original hedge fund all. But I'll jumble together with 588 00:32:09,716 --> 00:32:12,876 Speaker 1: Sam's money with the investors' money. So you haven't you 589 00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:16,076 Speaker 1: already have a problem right from the beginning. That's real 590 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:19,676 Speaker 1: clear that like the customer's money is available to out 591 00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:23,476 Speaker 1: Talameda if it wants to use it. Flash forward to 592 00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:27,156 Speaker 1: June of twenty twenty two. I think in May of 593 00:32:27,156 --> 00:32:31,356 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, certainly like April twenty twenty two, if 594 00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:34,876 Speaker 1: all the customers of FTX had showed up and said 595 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:38,156 Speaker 1: we want our dollars and bitcoin and whatever back, I 596 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:40,196 Speaker 1: think they would have gotten them back. There was the 597 00:32:40,236 --> 00:32:43,076 Speaker 1: money was there. The prosecutor seemed to not be pushing 598 00:32:43,076 --> 00:32:48,676 Speaker 1: this point, but a combination of crypto collapsing and crypto 599 00:32:48,836 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 1: lenders who lent money to Alameda asking for their loans 600 00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:57,076 Speaker 1: back caused Sam with Caroline to make a decision to 601 00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:01,556 Speaker 1: pay lenders back their money and use the depositors' money 602 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:04,236 Speaker 1: in their place. That seems to be what happened. That's 603 00:33:04,276 --> 00:33:07,796 Speaker 1: what Caroline says happened. Do you believe that, Yes, we 604 00:33:07,876 --> 00:33:10,316 Speaker 1: know they did that. The question is how involved he was, 605 00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:13,396 Speaker 1: how where he was of what that implied for the deposits, 606 00:33:13,676 --> 00:33:15,556 Speaker 1: and how much risk he was putting the customers at 607 00:33:15,596 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 1: all that, how much money he thought was inside of Alameda. 608 00:33:18,636 --> 00:33:21,036 Speaker 1: There are questions about that, But the fact is they 609 00:33:21,036 --> 00:33:25,396 Speaker 1: did that, which was a weird decision because the wealth, 610 00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:28,996 Speaker 1: all their wealth was tied up in FTX. If they 611 00:33:29,036 --> 00:33:32,116 Speaker 1: had just said to the lenders sorry, Ris Stiff and 612 00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:34,156 Speaker 1: you and all if you want to, if you want to, 613 00:33:34,396 --> 00:33:36,636 Speaker 1: you want to force the issue, Alameda will go bankrupt. 614 00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:39,036 Speaker 1: They'd just still had their crypto exchange. It would have 615 00:33:39,036 --> 00:33:41,596 Speaker 1: taken a blow, but it would have survived. You know, 616 00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:44,036 Speaker 1: all of Sam's all, the twenty two billion is his stake, 617 00:33:44,076 --> 00:33:47,236 Speaker 1: All of Caroline's wealth is a stake in FTX. So 618 00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:50,196 Speaker 1: it was a really strange decision. So we're going to 619 00:33:50,356 --> 00:33:52,796 Speaker 1: depend at why they might have made that decision. Even 620 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 1: though it's so strange. He's tied up with Sam's vanity 621 00:33:56,116 --> 00:33:58,876 Speaker 1: about how he's perceived as a risk manager. That if 622 00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: he's seen as, oh, he's not the idiot who blew 623 00:34:01,596 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 1: up a hedge fund, he couldn't stand that narrative. So 624 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:09,316 Speaker 1: then what happens from June to November. This is where 625 00:34:09,316 --> 00:34:10,596 Speaker 1: it gets messy. I like that. 626 00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:12,356 Speaker 2: You think this is where it gets messed, Well, this is. 627 00:34:12,316 --> 00:34:14,276 Speaker 1: Where it gets really messy into sort of trying to 628 00:34:14,316 --> 00:34:18,796 Speaker 1: recreate what happened. Caroline would say did say that from 629 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:21,796 Speaker 1: that moment on she lived in this state of existential 630 00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:25,236 Speaker 1: dread until finally the deposits ask for their money back 631 00:34:25,276 --> 00:34:29,196 Speaker 1: and they're exposed and the whole thing collapses. Naishad, who 632 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:31,716 Speaker 1: is also a party to this. Dashad Singh, who was 633 00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:35,476 Speaker 1: sort of number two or number three at FTX, says 634 00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:37,516 Speaker 1: he doesn't even didn't even realize there was a hole 635 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:39,876 Speaker 1: in Alameda until September. 636 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:42,596 Speaker 2: An eight point seven billion dollar hole. 637 00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:44,836 Speaker 1: Maybe bigger than that, but in the end, right now 638 00:34:44,836 --> 00:34:48,196 Speaker 1: it's an eight point six billion dollar hole. But they 639 00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:50,356 Speaker 1: were supposed to be the gross numbers were They were 640 00:34:50,356 --> 00:34:54,156 Speaker 1: supposed to be sixteen billion dollars of customer deposits on FTX, 641 00:34:54,196 --> 00:34:56,396 Speaker 1: and they weren't there. They were all over the place, 642 00:34:56,476 --> 00:34:58,636 Speaker 1: somewhere there, but most were like all over the place 643 00:34:59,516 --> 00:35:01,956 Speaker 1: where it gets weird to be. And like, what hasn't 644 00:35:01,996 --> 00:35:05,396 Speaker 1: been explained in the trial is if Caroline is in 645 00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:09,076 Speaker 1: this state of existential dread for five months, why when 646 00:35:09,196 --> 00:35:12,236 Speaker 1: it blows up, does she not know where the money 647 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:15,516 Speaker 1: is that they have. This is a bizarre thing. So 648 00:35:15,956 --> 00:35:18,356 Speaker 1: the couple of days it's all blowing up. Other people, 649 00:35:18,476 --> 00:35:20,836 Speaker 1: not Sam. Other people who are in the room are 650 00:35:20,916 --> 00:35:24,436 Speaker 1: struck by banks calling them up and saying, hey, do 651 00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:26,316 Speaker 1: you know that we have three hundred million dollars of 652 00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:28,036 Speaker 1: your dollars? Do you want it back? And they don't 653 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:31,156 Speaker 1: know that they a bank has the dollars. And John Ray, 654 00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:33,076 Speaker 1: the bankruptcy guy who's been running it, has said the 655 00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 1: same thing to me. He said, this has been like 656 00:35:34,236 --> 00:35:35,956 Speaker 1: an easter eg hunt. There's money all over the place. 657 00:35:35,996 --> 00:35:38,276 Speaker 1: There's money and crypto exchanges in age. Are their money 658 00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:40,996 Speaker 1: in banks that they didn't have records of. If you 659 00:35:41,116 --> 00:35:45,836 Speaker 1: are terrified in June of not having the money to 660 00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:49,716 Speaker 1: pay customers back, wouldn't you actually gather up all this 661 00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 1: money or at least have a list of where it was. 662 00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:56,796 Speaker 1: It's hard to explain why they made no effort until 663 00:35:57,436 --> 00:35:59,796 Speaker 1: it all blows up to a sort of account for 664 00:35:59,836 --> 00:36:02,316 Speaker 1: what they had and what they didn't have. It's messy 665 00:36:02,396 --> 00:36:05,276 Speaker 1: what's going on from June to November, because they don't 666 00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:06,676 Speaker 1: do the things you would think you would do if 667 00:36:06,716 --> 00:36:08,796 Speaker 1: you were panicked or worried. They also the other thing's 668 00:36:08,836 --> 00:36:11,876 Speaker 1: odd is in that period you would think if they're 669 00:36:11,876 --> 00:36:15,436 Speaker 1: all that worried about this, they would stop spending money, 670 00:36:15,996 --> 00:36:18,956 Speaker 1: and they don't stop spending money, and they don't raise money, 671 00:36:19,676 --> 00:36:22,396 Speaker 1: and makes me wonder just how worried. 672 00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:26,076 Speaker 2: She was you spent The good part of Sam's house 673 00:36:26,156 --> 00:36:28,156 Speaker 2: arrest with him is that right. 674 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:30,196 Speaker 1: I didn't go live at his house, but I was 675 00:36:30,236 --> 00:36:31,556 Speaker 1: able to id ahol passed. 676 00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:33,436 Speaker 2: They didn't like pull out a cop for you or 677 00:36:33,436 --> 00:36:33,876 Speaker 2: something like that. 678 00:36:33,956 --> 00:36:35,676 Speaker 1: I didn't pullot a cop, but they did. And when 679 00:36:35,716 --> 00:36:39,276 Speaker 1: you went, you had to notify the authorities and they 680 00:36:39,316 --> 00:36:41,156 Speaker 1: met you outside the door and they took away your 681 00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:43,756 Speaker 1: cell phone. But I went. Every other week, I go 682 00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:46,116 Speaker 1: down and spend six or seven hours with him. 683 00:36:46,156 --> 00:36:50,676 Speaker 2: So obviously you're asking him questions like how did this happen? 684 00:36:51,556 --> 00:36:55,516 Speaker 2: Where do you think the money is. You've said recently 685 00:36:55,596 --> 00:36:59,076 Speaker 2: in a Time magazine interview that Sam is not a 686 00:36:59,116 --> 00:37:02,916 Speaker 2: serial liar, but that he is a serial withholder. Yes, 687 00:37:03,796 --> 00:37:04,716 Speaker 2: explain the difference. 688 00:37:04,996 --> 00:37:07,276 Speaker 1: If I'm talking to you, I say, Sam, where were 689 00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:10,156 Speaker 1: you born? And you say, hah, I was born in Nashville, Tennessee, 690 00:37:10,396 --> 00:37:12,956 Speaker 1: but actually you were born in Portland, Oregon. That's one 691 00:37:13,036 --> 00:37:14,956 Speaker 1: kind of thing if I say Sam, where you were 692 00:37:14,956 --> 00:37:16,876 Speaker 1: born and you kind of change the subject, that I 693 00:37:16,916 --> 00:37:18,356 Speaker 1: never get to the answer of why you where you 694 00:37:18,356 --> 00:37:21,356 Speaker 1: were born? He's very good. He was very good at that. 695 00:37:21,556 --> 00:37:23,596 Speaker 1: There's a footnote in the book, and you know it's 696 00:37:23,636 --> 00:37:26,316 Speaker 1: in the text of the book, but it's that tries 697 00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:29,276 Speaker 1: to deliver the reader an example of just this thing 698 00:37:29,316 --> 00:37:32,956 Speaker 1: he does. I asked him, all right, one of the 699 00:37:33,036 --> 00:37:37,756 Speaker 1: mechanisms for the money getting from FTX into Alameda, from 700 00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:41,796 Speaker 1: this exchange into your private edge fund, was that Alameda 701 00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:45,876 Speaker 1: alone didn't have its risks managed by FTX, the risk 702 00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:48,796 Speaker 1: engine that stopped other people from losing money on FTX, 703 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:51,836 Speaker 1: which switched off for Alameda. If I had asked you 704 00:37:52,076 --> 00:37:55,356 Speaker 1: directly back in the day before things went bad, is 705 00:37:55,436 --> 00:37:58,636 Speaker 1: Alameda subjected to the risk engine? What would you have said? 706 00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:01,556 Speaker 1: And he says, I would have either made a word 707 00:38:01,636 --> 00:38:04,756 Speaker 1: salad or I would have answered a different question. That's 708 00:38:04,916 --> 00:38:08,036 Speaker 1: him being weirdly honest about being weirdly dishonest. If you 709 00:38:08,156 --> 00:38:10,396 Speaker 1: asked him the right one question, and this happened to 710 00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:12,436 Speaker 1: him before, when things were good, people would ask him 711 00:38:12,476 --> 00:38:14,636 Speaker 1: questions and he'd get himself in trouble because if the 712 00:38:14,716 --> 00:38:17,596 Speaker 1: question was exactly right, he tended to answer it. It 713 00:38:17,676 --> 00:38:20,276 Speaker 1: was almost a mechanical kind of thing. But if you 714 00:38:20,596 --> 00:38:23,676 Speaker 1: asked him, oh, I don't know, do you have conflicts 715 00:38:23,676 --> 00:38:26,556 Speaker 1: of interest between Alameda and FTX, he would answer a 716 00:38:26,636 --> 00:38:30,196 Speaker 1: question about how the kind of conflicts of interest that 717 00:38:30,316 --> 00:38:34,476 Speaker 1: exist on us stock exchanges between the stock exchanges and 718 00:38:35,036 --> 00:38:37,596 Speaker 1: high frequency traders kind of thing. He would answer a 719 00:38:37,636 --> 00:38:38,716 Speaker 1: slightly different question. 720 00:38:38,996 --> 00:38:42,596 Speaker 2: Do you think you asked him in retrospect the wrong 721 00:38:42,756 --> 00:38:43,756 Speaker 2: set of questions? 722 00:38:44,276 --> 00:38:45,996 Speaker 1: No, I mean he gave me answers like the one 723 00:38:46,036 --> 00:38:47,836 Speaker 1: he gave me about how I wouldn't have given you 724 00:38:47,836 --> 00:38:52,036 Speaker 1: the answer, So you know I got And in the book, 725 00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:55,436 Speaker 1: you know, I was really careful to keep myself out 726 00:38:55,516 --> 00:38:59,156 Speaker 1: of the inquisition of Sam Bankman Freed. I let other 727 00:38:59,236 --> 00:39:02,236 Speaker 1: people do it, and in particular did it his chief 728 00:39:02,276 --> 00:39:05,796 Speaker 1: operating officer. And I think she asked all the right 729 00:39:05,876 --> 00:39:09,756 Speaker 1: questions too, she just didn't get the answers she got. 730 00:39:09,916 --> 00:39:13,076 Speaker 1: I thought we had more money. Uh huh. That's a 731 00:39:13,076 --> 00:39:15,996 Speaker 1: state of mind thing. It's kind of hard to the point, 732 00:39:16,036 --> 00:39:18,836 Speaker 1: isn't that it's true. The point is it's hard to falsify. 733 00:39:19,556 --> 00:39:21,796 Speaker 2: In the book you described Zain Packet. He was a 734 00:39:21,796 --> 00:39:22,996 Speaker 2: colleague of Sam's right there. 735 00:39:23,196 --> 00:39:26,036 Speaker 1: He was kind of the original crypto great there who'd 736 00:39:26,076 --> 00:39:28,596 Speaker 1: been in the crypto markets for a long time and 737 00:39:28,636 --> 00:39:31,516 Speaker 1: who was kind of the face of FTX to old 738 00:39:31,556 --> 00:39:32,276 Speaker 1: crypto people. 739 00:39:32,596 --> 00:39:34,676 Speaker 2: Well, in the book you said that he doesn't care 740 00:39:34,756 --> 00:39:38,676 Speaker 2: much about why Sam dibbity did, but how he asked? 741 00:39:38,796 --> 00:39:41,676 Speaker 2: Why had neither he nor anyone else he knew seen 742 00:39:41,716 --> 00:39:44,956 Speaker 2: this coming? And I think this is a question that 743 00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:48,836 Speaker 2: through this book tour of yours, you have been asked 744 00:39:49,316 --> 00:39:53,076 Speaker 2: repeatedly you spent all this time with them? You are, 745 00:39:53,236 --> 00:39:58,916 Speaker 2: of course, Michael lewis known for shrewd observations. Humanistic portraits 746 00:39:59,276 --> 00:40:02,236 Speaker 2: generally have a good sense of people and why they 747 00:40:02,276 --> 00:40:06,156 Speaker 2: do things. Did you really not see any of it coming? 748 00:40:07,276 --> 00:40:13,196 Speaker 2: Or was it more advantageous for a potential book to 749 00:40:13,316 --> 00:40:14,196 Speaker 2: not see it coming? 750 00:40:15,316 --> 00:40:17,596 Speaker 1: It's certainly the latter is certainly true, but I'm not 751 00:40:17,636 --> 00:40:21,316 Speaker 1: sure it's an either or a question. It's completely true 752 00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:26,836 Speaker 1: that just watching and not kind of judge them too 753 00:40:26,836 --> 00:40:31,716 Speaker 1: strongly was very helpful to generating the literary material for 754 00:40:31,796 --> 00:40:35,436 Speaker 1: a book. That's true. But let me just point out 755 00:40:35,476 --> 00:40:38,316 Speaker 1: that one hundred and twenty of the world's leading venture 756 00:40:38,356 --> 00:40:40,716 Speaker 1: capitalists gave him money. I didn't give him money. 757 00:40:40,756 --> 00:40:43,276 Speaker 2: Didn't you put two thousand dollars in ftx US. 758 00:40:43,236 --> 00:40:45,316 Speaker 1: Only to see if it were and actually put most 759 00:40:45,316 --> 00:40:47,876 Speaker 1: of it in Swiss francs. 760 00:40:47,876 --> 00:40:50,156 Speaker 2: But those venture capitalists did not write Moneyball or The 761 00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:53,876 Speaker 2: Big Short or liar's poet. There, I interview Obama. 762 00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:59,636 Speaker 1: So on the whole place was so chaotic, so comically chaotic, 763 00:40:59,716 --> 00:41:02,636 Speaker 1: that the absence of lists of employees, the absence of 764 00:41:02,676 --> 00:41:05,796 Speaker 1: an organization chart, no titles matched what the person was doing, 765 00:41:05,996 --> 00:41:09,116 Speaker 1: just and all the people unhappy because Sam wouldn't manage anybody, 766 00:41:09,356 --> 00:41:11,396 Speaker 1: because he didn't believe in managing anybody, because he thought 767 00:41:11,396 --> 00:41:14,756 Speaker 1: everybody should just manage themselves. All that stuff. So it 768 00:41:14,796 --> 00:41:16,916 Speaker 1: was bound to lead to something. It was a very 769 00:41:17,036 --> 00:41:18,396 Speaker 1: volatile situation. 770 00:41:18,156 --> 00:41:20,196 Speaker 2: Something bad, probably bad. 771 00:41:20,276 --> 00:41:23,836 Speaker 1: But the actual thing that happened did not make a 772 00:41:23,876 --> 00:41:25,996 Speaker 1: lot of sense. It did not, like make a lot 773 00:41:25,996 --> 00:41:28,076 Speaker 1: of sense for them to put this goal mine. They 774 00:41:28,116 --> 00:41:32,076 Speaker 1: had FTX in peril for the sake of Sam's vanity 775 00:41:32,116 --> 00:41:36,196 Speaker 1: trading fund, and leave Sam out of it for a minute. 776 00:41:36,596 --> 00:41:41,396 Speaker 1: The other principles. If you said, oh, is the FTX depositors' 777 00:41:41,436 --> 00:41:44,236 Speaker 1: money inside of Alamede instead a thing? Nobody said. By 778 00:41:44,236 --> 00:41:46,676 Speaker 1: the way, zero people said that, I would have said, 779 00:41:46,676 --> 00:41:49,116 Speaker 1: nobody would allow that. Mishad and Gary and Carolyn, they 780 00:41:49,116 --> 00:41:50,876 Speaker 1: just wouldn't let that happen because all their wealth is 781 00:41:50,876 --> 00:41:53,636 Speaker 1: tied up with FTX. They just wouldn't let it happen. 782 00:41:54,156 --> 00:41:57,476 Speaker 1: It was such an idiot crime to do that, to 783 00:41:57,556 --> 00:42:00,156 Speaker 1: set up the place in the first place, so that 784 00:42:00,356 --> 00:42:02,796 Speaker 1: the money that's supposed to be an FTX is actually 785 00:42:02,796 --> 00:42:06,996 Speaker 1: in Alameda. I did not see that coming. I did 786 00:42:07,036 --> 00:42:08,476 Speaker 1: think something was going to happen that was going to 787 00:42:08,516 --> 00:42:09,716 Speaker 1: give me the ending to the book. 788 00:42:10,156 --> 00:42:13,356 Speaker 2: It all came tumbling down between November two and November twelfth. 789 00:42:13,356 --> 00:42:16,276 Speaker 2: As I said, you did not get back down to 790 00:42:16,316 --> 00:42:20,756 Speaker 2: the Bahamas until November ninth. Right at what point in 791 00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:24,436 Speaker 2: that week did you realize you had a third act? 792 00:42:24,756 --> 00:42:29,476 Speaker 1: Immediately? I had childcare reasons. While I could, I couldn't 793 00:42:29,476 --> 00:42:31,636 Speaker 1: get down to the Bahamas on November the third or fourth, 794 00:42:31,676 --> 00:42:33,756 Speaker 1: but I should have. But I got down there the 795 00:42:33,796 --> 00:42:35,356 Speaker 1: day he signed the bankruptcy papers. 796 00:42:35,476 --> 00:42:36,716 Speaker 2: Can you set that scene for us? 797 00:42:36,996 --> 00:42:38,836 Speaker 1: It was wild. The whole book is wild, like the 798 00:42:38,836 --> 00:42:43,396 Speaker 1: whole stories wild. But this was the Friday of the 799 00:42:43,876 --> 00:42:49,116 Speaker 1: disastrous week. Virtually all the employees have already fled, fled 800 00:42:49,196 --> 00:42:52,596 Speaker 1: so fast that they've left all their possessions in their condominiums. 801 00:42:52,796 --> 00:42:55,676 Speaker 1: All the food is on the shelf, all their possessions 802 00:42:55,676 --> 00:42:58,116 Speaker 1: at worker are still at work. They've just run to 803 00:42:58,156 --> 00:43:00,916 Speaker 1: the airport and basically run home to their parents' basements. 804 00:43:01,556 --> 00:43:05,756 Speaker 1: And I get there still there is Natalie Tin and 805 00:43:05,876 --> 00:43:08,276 Speaker 1: Natalie was the important character of the book. She was 806 00:43:08,316 --> 00:43:11,956 Speaker 1: Sam started out of Sam's scheduler and PR person. She 807 00:43:12,076 --> 00:43:13,916 Speaker 1: ran PR for them. She knew she was the one 808 00:43:13,916 --> 00:43:16,956 Speaker 1: person knew where Sam was at any given moment. So 809 00:43:16,996 --> 00:43:19,436 Speaker 1: she picks me up at the airport in the Bahamas, 810 00:43:19,956 --> 00:43:22,556 Speaker 1: and she has, at that point, for the first time 811 00:43:22,596 --> 00:43:25,516 Speaker 1: since I've known her, no idea where Sam is. That 812 00:43:25,556 --> 00:43:27,596 Speaker 1: she doesn't care anymore. She's like the whole place is 813 00:43:27,596 --> 00:43:30,036 Speaker 1: blown up. She's furious with Sam. On the way there, 814 00:43:30,076 --> 00:43:33,396 Speaker 1: I said, could we stop at the FTX offices because 815 00:43:33,396 --> 00:43:35,996 Speaker 1: she passed them anyway. And she was really nervous about 816 00:43:35,996 --> 00:43:38,236 Speaker 1: doing this because she had one of the last remaining 817 00:43:38,316 --> 00:43:40,916 Speaker 1: FTX cars that had all been repossessed or dumped at 818 00:43:40,956 --> 00:43:43,076 Speaker 1: the airport, and she was afraid someone's going to see 819 00:43:43,076 --> 00:43:44,196 Speaker 1: her with it and they would take away her car 820 00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:46,276 Speaker 1: and she wouldn't have anybody to get out. But I 821 00:43:46,316 --> 00:43:49,316 Speaker 1: talked her into going to the FTX offices and it 822 00:43:49,396 --> 00:43:51,876 Speaker 1: is these collection of huts in the jungle. There's no 823 00:43:51,876 --> 00:43:54,556 Speaker 1: one at the guard booth. We drive around the guard booth, 824 00:43:55,036 --> 00:43:59,876 Speaker 1: and in the distance is Sam walking circles around the 825 00:43:59,916 --> 00:44:04,756 Speaker 1: office buildings all by himself, and he's obviously not bathed 826 00:44:04,836 --> 00:44:08,996 Speaker 1: or shaved in days. He's in an agitated state of 827 00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:12,356 Speaker 1: He sees us, walks over, gets in the car like 828 00:44:12,356 --> 00:44:15,516 Speaker 1: we're an uber, and almost the first thing he says is, 829 00:44:16,076 --> 00:44:20,076 Speaker 1: you know, it's weird to think about Saturday. Saturday everything 830 00:44:20,156 --> 00:44:23,596 Speaker 1: was normal, he said, about six days earlier, everything was normal, 831 00:44:23,636 --> 00:44:27,396 Speaker 1: and now his empire lay in ruins. And from then 832 00:44:27,716 --> 00:44:29,996 Speaker 1: I really disquatted as best I could in the Bahamas 833 00:44:30,036 --> 00:44:31,076 Speaker 1: until he was extradited. 834 00:44:31,716 --> 00:44:34,596 Speaker 2: When you saw Sam there in the parking lot, you 835 00:44:34,636 --> 00:44:37,476 Speaker 2: said on sixty minutes that if I were a better person, 836 00:44:38,156 --> 00:44:40,316 Speaker 2: I would have been deeply distressed by all of this. 837 00:44:41,836 --> 00:44:44,076 Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? A better person? 838 00:44:44,916 --> 00:44:48,796 Speaker 1: If I were chiefly worried about his suffering or the 839 00:44:48,836 --> 00:44:51,356 Speaker 1: suffering of those around them, I would have gone there 840 00:44:51,356 --> 00:44:52,756 Speaker 1: in my head it would have been like, oh, this 841 00:44:52,876 --> 00:44:55,796 Speaker 1: is all so sad, and this does happen to me. 842 00:44:55,956 --> 00:44:59,236 Speaker 1: It's just how I'm wired. I was just interested, like 843 00:44:59,356 --> 00:45:03,756 Speaker 1: so interested, And I was also aware that this answers 844 00:45:03,796 --> 00:45:06,276 Speaker 1: the question of where this story went, and it made 845 00:45:06,396 --> 00:45:08,956 Speaker 1: sense of an awful lot of what had come before, 846 00:45:09,396 --> 00:45:11,716 Speaker 1: an awful lot like things that were kind of like 847 00:45:11,796 --> 00:45:14,276 Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle, and I couldn't figure out how 848 00:45:14,316 --> 00:45:17,036 Speaker 1: they all fit together. They started to fit together, like 849 00:45:17,116 --> 00:45:19,396 Speaker 1: the many collapse that had happened back in twenty eighteen. 850 00:45:19,836 --> 00:45:22,716 Speaker 1: It all sort of like resonated in a different way. 851 00:45:23,236 --> 00:45:26,156 Speaker 1: So my mind is racing with the story. I didn't 852 00:45:26,196 --> 00:45:31,596 Speaker 1: feel chiefly worried about the people around me. I felt 853 00:45:31,716 --> 00:45:34,876 Speaker 1: chiefly worried about my reader. And even as a father, 854 00:45:35,276 --> 00:45:36,876 Speaker 1: what do you mean, even as a father, Well, you're 855 00:45:36,876 --> 00:45:40,076 Speaker 1: a father, and I imagine you see a young kid 856 00:45:40,116 --> 00:45:44,556 Speaker 1: whose life is falling apart, whose lives he's ruined, many 857 00:45:44,556 --> 00:45:46,716 Speaker 1: many people's lives he's ruined. There was a little heart 858 00:45:46,796 --> 00:45:48,676 Speaker 1: and still a little hard to know what's going to 859 00:45:48,716 --> 00:45:51,596 Speaker 1: happen there. The people whose lives he ruined, or rather 860 00:45:51,676 --> 00:45:53,396 Speaker 1: he caused a lot of damage. 861 00:45:52,996 --> 00:45:54,516 Speaker 2: To, were colleagues. 862 00:45:54,556 --> 00:45:57,516 Speaker 1: His colleagues. They all had their money on the exchange. 863 00:45:57,516 --> 00:46:01,756 Speaker 1: Their reputations are in tatters. His parents, his parents, that's painful. 864 00:46:02,276 --> 00:46:03,716 Speaker 1: His parents were painful for me. 865 00:46:03,836 --> 00:46:04,396 Speaker 2: Why was that? 866 00:46:05,476 --> 00:46:08,356 Speaker 1: Because I was watching parents lose a child, and I 867 00:46:08,396 --> 00:46:10,316 Speaker 1: had lost a child. You know, I know what that 868 00:46:10,436 --> 00:46:12,156 Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, it's a different way to lose 869 00:46:12,196 --> 00:46:15,556 Speaker 1: a child, but I know that that was something that 870 00:46:15,556 --> 00:46:19,436 Speaker 1: that's still something that's hard for me is watching them 871 00:46:19,516 --> 00:46:23,476 Speaker 1: process this event. Here's a moment. It's not in the book. 872 00:46:24,116 --> 00:46:27,196 Speaker 1: And maybe this is partly why maybe our partly left 873 00:46:27,196 --> 00:46:29,796 Speaker 1: it out because it was just it just it seemed 874 00:46:29,836 --> 00:46:32,836 Speaker 1: like too raw for them. The day he was put 875 00:46:33,236 --> 00:46:35,436 Speaker 1: in jail and the Bahamas and he was put in 876 00:46:35,516 --> 00:46:38,436 Speaker 1: a prison that's like, it's like it makes our prisons 877 00:46:38,476 --> 00:46:42,076 Speaker 1: look pretty cush. It's it's like ranked the top ten 878 00:46:42,116 --> 00:46:45,396 Speaker 1: worst prisons in the world. Or the day after they 879 00:46:45,436 --> 00:46:47,716 Speaker 1: went to visit and I went with them. As we're 880 00:46:47,716 --> 00:46:51,556 Speaker 1: getting in the car, his mother said to me, tell 881 00:46:51,676 --> 00:46:55,396 Speaker 1: me something that will make me feel better. And I said. 882 00:46:55,436 --> 00:46:57,316 Speaker 1: The first thing I said was, well, in a month, 883 00:46:57,356 --> 00:46:59,596 Speaker 1: he's probably going to be home under house arrest in 884 00:46:59,676 --> 00:47:02,236 Speaker 1: Stanford at your house. And she said that doesn't make 885 00:47:02,236 --> 00:47:06,236 Speaker 1: me feel better. She actually said try again, and I said, 886 00:47:06,996 --> 00:47:10,516 Speaker 1: you will be amazed how adaptable you are. You'll be 887 00:47:10,556 --> 00:47:15,396 Speaker 1: amazed how your mind can adjust to a situation that 888 00:47:15,476 --> 00:47:19,756 Speaker 1: you find right now unimaginably painful. And she said that 889 00:47:19,796 --> 00:47:22,596 Speaker 1: makes me feel better now. So why do I mention 890 00:47:22,676 --> 00:47:26,476 Speaker 1: this moment. I didn't think of that as material. I 891 00:47:26,556 --> 00:47:29,196 Speaker 1: was actually connecting to them just as a person, as 892 00:47:29,236 --> 00:47:29,916 Speaker 1: a human. 893 00:47:29,676 --> 00:47:32,796 Speaker 2: Being, as a father who just lost their daughter. 894 00:47:33,156 --> 00:47:38,476 Speaker 1: Right, And I was in a different emotional space than 895 00:47:38,516 --> 00:47:40,996 Speaker 1: I am in almost all the time when I'm thinking 896 00:47:40,996 --> 00:47:43,996 Speaker 1: about some piece of writing. There was like a famous 897 00:47:44,076 --> 00:47:48,076 Speaker 1: Joan Didion moment line It's probably apocryphal where and I 898 00:47:48,076 --> 00:47:50,636 Speaker 1: can't remember even what book it was from. Someone asked 899 00:47:50,636 --> 00:47:52,316 Speaker 1: her how she felt when she walked into a room 900 00:47:52,316 --> 00:47:53,796 Speaker 1: and she saw a five year old girl with a 901 00:47:53,836 --> 00:47:56,916 Speaker 1: cocaine in her hands, and it was acid. I was 902 00:47:56,956 --> 00:47:59,236 Speaker 1: an acid heye, Ashbury, you know this? Then? 903 00:47:59,316 --> 00:48:00,036 Speaker 2: Do you know what she said? 904 00:48:00,276 --> 00:48:03,396 Speaker 1: You tell me it was gold? It was gold. And 905 00:48:03,596 --> 00:48:05,716 Speaker 1: when I'm wandering around the world thinking about how to 906 00:48:05,716 --> 00:48:09,556 Speaker 1: write about something, I am filtering it that way, thinking 907 00:48:09,636 --> 00:48:13,156 Speaker 1: like what's the meaning of this, Like what's the story 908 00:48:13,236 --> 00:48:16,716 Speaker 1: of this? I'm not thinking. I'm not thinking I am 909 00:48:17,156 --> 00:48:21,356 Speaker 1: responsible for it. I'm an observer. So I didn't feel 910 00:48:21,356 --> 00:48:25,156 Speaker 1: responsible for Sam. Right, I was aware of how much 911 00:48:25,956 --> 00:48:28,596 Speaker 1: damage he'd caused in other people's lives. So if anything, 912 00:48:29,116 --> 00:48:31,916 Speaker 1: I was, you know, like massively irritated with Sam for 913 00:48:31,996 --> 00:48:33,916 Speaker 1: that if I thought about it, but mainly I was 914 00:48:33,996 --> 00:48:35,476 Speaker 1: just watching it for like, how is this going to 915 00:48:35,516 --> 00:48:35,996 Speaker 1: play out? 916 00:48:36,076 --> 00:48:39,196 Speaker 2: But in that moment with his mother, you said that 917 00:48:39,236 --> 00:48:42,596 Speaker 2: you were not in your traditional journalistic state. You were 918 00:48:42,636 --> 00:48:44,556 Speaker 2: in a different emotional state. 919 00:48:44,756 --> 00:48:48,476 Speaker 1: I wasn't writing that down right, and I knew almost instinctively, 920 00:48:48,476 --> 00:48:51,396 Speaker 1: I would not write about that. I'm talking about it, 921 00:48:51,436 --> 00:48:53,756 Speaker 1: but I knew and that it wasn't like, oh, this 922 00:48:53,916 --> 00:48:58,396 Speaker 1: isn't exactly material, because I had watched the relationship and 923 00:48:58,436 --> 00:49:01,796 Speaker 1: I'd seen how far he kept them from what he 924 00:49:01,836 --> 00:49:05,596 Speaker 1: was doing. Not everything like the mother received. He gave 925 00:49:05,676 --> 00:49:07,876 Speaker 1: money to the mother's political causes, and his dad was 926 00:49:07,916 --> 00:49:11,596 Speaker 1: involved in a lot of philanthropic efforts, but at the 927 00:49:11,636 --> 00:49:15,356 Speaker 1: core of the operation, they were kept far from it, 928 00:49:15,476 --> 00:49:18,556 Speaker 1: like they couldn't get on his schedule. Natalie, who kept 929 00:49:18,596 --> 00:49:20,876 Speaker 1: his schedule, said, one of the biggest embarrassments for me 930 00:49:20,956 --> 00:49:22,316 Speaker 1: is that the mom and dad would call up and 931 00:49:22,316 --> 00:49:24,716 Speaker 1: say they went fifteen minutes with Sam, and Sam will say, 932 00:49:24,836 --> 00:49:27,956 Speaker 1: you know, you know, dodge that for two weeks, and 933 00:49:28,036 --> 00:49:30,636 Speaker 1: so they'd been kept at this kind of distance from 934 00:49:31,116 --> 00:49:34,596 Speaker 1: the thing that had happened, and they'd been led to 935 00:49:34,716 --> 00:49:38,396 Speaker 1: believe this thing about their child, that he was the 936 00:49:38,476 --> 00:49:40,196 Speaker 1: richest person in the world in under thirty, that he 937 00:49:40,316 --> 00:49:42,196 Speaker 1: was a miraculous human being who was going to save 938 00:49:42,236 --> 00:49:44,916 Speaker 1: us all from pandemics, all that stuff, and then it 939 00:49:44,956 --> 00:49:47,876 Speaker 1: was all ripped away so fast, and that they were 940 00:49:47,876 --> 00:49:52,076 Speaker 1: staring right away pretty realistically at the situation that this 941 00:49:52,116 --> 00:49:55,276 Speaker 1: is going to end very, very badly for him. So 942 00:49:55,316 --> 00:49:58,036 Speaker 1: it was hard not to feel something for them, you. 943 00:49:57,996 --> 00:50:00,236 Speaker 2: Know, when you got in the car with Sam and 944 00:50:00,276 --> 00:50:05,036 Speaker 2: he said, it's so strange. Everything last Saturday was so normal, 945 00:50:06,236 --> 00:50:09,636 Speaker 2: you know. In prep for this, I went back and 946 00:50:09,676 --> 00:50:13,556 Speaker 2: I thought, when did you and I first talk? I 947 00:50:13,596 --> 00:50:17,556 Speaker 2: found the date it was. It was May thirteenth of 948 00:50:17,596 --> 00:50:18,436 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. 949 00:50:18,476 --> 00:50:20,036 Speaker 1: It was eight days before Dixie died. 950 00:50:20,676 --> 00:50:24,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course this book is dedicated to her, 951 00:50:24,916 --> 00:50:26,436 Speaker 2: and she was just on my mind. She's been on 952 00:50:26,476 --> 00:50:29,596 Speaker 2: my mind in reading this that you've had to hold 953 00:50:29,636 --> 00:50:33,956 Speaker 2: that while writing this book, that you have held it 954 00:50:34,356 --> 00:50:37,396 Speaker 2: while writing this book. How the hell have you done 955 00:50:37,396 --> 00:50:37,716 Speaker 2: all that? 956 00:50:38,516 --> 00:50:42,036 Speaker 1: She helped me? So this is she enters this book 957 00:50:42,036 --> 00:50:45,036 Speaker 1: in a very curious way. There's an opening to another 958 00:50:45,036 --> 00:50:47,036 Speaker 1: book I wrote called Home Game, which is a collection 959 00:50:47,076 --> 00:50:50,516 Speaker 1: of basically notes on fatherhood, and it's she's the opening, 960 00:50:51,076 --> 00:50:53,716 Speaker 1: and she's a little kid and she's standing up to 961 00:50:53,756 --> 00:50:55,876 Speaker 1: some bullies that are trying to bully her older sister. 962 00:50:56,476 --> 00:50:59,236 Speaker 1: Unbelievable act of bravery. And she was that way all 963 00:50:59,276 --> 00:51:02,876 Speaker 1: the time. I mean to a fault, had this nerve 964 00:51:03,036 --> 00:51:07,556 Speaker 1: in the face of what she perceived as injustice or 965 00:51:07,636 --> 00:51:11,476 Speaker 1: attacks from bad people, or she was a fighter. The 966 00:51:11,556 --> 00:51:14,276 Speaker 1: one thing I had to worry about writing this book 967 00:51:14,996 --> 00:51:17,596 Speaker 1: was there was a mob waiting for it. I knew 968 00:51:17,596 --> 00:51:19,596 Speaker 1: that if I wrote it, wrote what I thought and 969 00:51:19,596 --> 00:51:21,796 Speaker 1: what I thought to be true, that lots of people 970 00:51:21,796 --> 00:51:24,996 Speaker 1: are going to be angry about it. And I thought, 971 00:51:25,276 --> 00:51:26,996 Speaker 1: I'm going to do this the way Dixie would do it. 972 00:51:27,156 --> 00:51:30,036 Speaker 1: I'm just going to say fuck it. And so it 973 00:51:30,116 --> 00:51:33,836 Speaker 1: helped knowing that her spirit was there. There's another answer 974 00:51:33,876 --> 00:51:35,876 Speaker 1: to this question too, And the other answer to the 975 00:51:35,956 --> 00:51:39,556 Speaker 1: question is how could I not throw myself into work 976 00:51:40,436 --> 00:51:43,636 Speaker 1: When Dixie died very shortly after, like days after, it 977 00:51:43,676 --> 00:51:47,196 Speaker 1: was so traumatic. I realized that, like I got a 978 00:51:47,236 --> 00:51:49,276 Speaker 1: sheet of paper out and I said, draw a line 979 00:51:49,276 --> 00:51:51,196 Speaker 1: on a sheet of paper on one side, put the 980 00:51:51,236 --> 00:51:53,716 Speaker 1: things that make you feel worse on the other side. 981 00:51:53,756 --> 00:51:55,236 Speaker 1: Make the things that put the things that make you 982 00:51:55,236 --> 00:51:58,076 Speaker 1: feel better and just do the things on the left 983 00:51:58,076 --> 00:52:00,196 Speaker 1: side and don't do the things on the right side. 984 00:52:00,316 --> 00:52:02,916 Speaker 1: Like it's so bad that you have to sort of 985 00:52:03,236 --> 00:52:08,156 Speaker 1: service yourself in order to survive. And one of the 986 00:52:08,196 --> 00:52:11,316 Speaker 1: things that made me feel that her was working, loving 987 00:52:11,676 --> 00:52:16,836 Speaker 1: and working, like forcing the relationships with people I love, 988 00:52:16,956 --> 00:52:20,276 Speaker 1: like making sure I'm expanding the circle of love all 989 00:52:20,316 --> 00:52:23,476 Speaker 1: that that, Like Dixie's loss was a loss of love, 990 00:52:23,676 --> 00:52:27,756 Speaker 1: and finding love and insisting on love was really important. 991 00:52:27,796 --> 00:52:30,156 Speaker 1: But work, for whatever reason, it's probably because I love 992 00:52:30,276 --> 00:52:34,076 Speaker 1: my work, it was it was became even more necessary. 993 00:52:35,756 --> 00:52:38,676 Speaker 1: So you know, I was grateful that a story walked 994 00:52:38,676 --> 00:52:40,516 Speaker 1: into my life, even if it took me a while 995 00:52:40,516 --> 00:52:46,396 Speaker 1: to figure out what it was. You are right, Yeah, 996 00:52:46,436 --> 00:52:50,996 Speaker 1: all right, she was brave. I try to. I've sort 997 00:52:50,996 --> 00:52:53,916 Speaker 1: of one of the things that I intend to do 998 00:52:54,036 --> 00:52:56,316 Speaker 1: going forward is live as bravely as possible. 999 00:52:56,916 --> 00:52:57,036 Speaker 3: Uh. 1000 00:52:57,436 --> 00:52:58,836 Speaker 1: And it's sort of to honor her. 1001 00:52:59,956 --> 00:53:03,036 Speaker 2: I want to play a clip for us from that 1002 00:53:03,076 --> 00:53:08,236 Speaker 2: conversation we had, Okay, and it's about the future ambition, 1003 00:53:08,476 --> 00:53:10,716 Speaker 2: what you passed down to your kids, how you hope 1004 00:53:11,236 --> 00:53:13,116 Speaker 2: they moved through the world, how you moved through the 1005 00:53:13,116 --> 00:53:15,716 Speaker 2: world basically a lot of what we've been talking about 1006 00:53:16,076 --> 00:53:18,676 Speaker 2: in this back and forth. And I wonder just where 1007 00:53:18,676 --> 00:53:20,036 Speaker 2: it lands with you now. 1008 00:53:21,116 --> 00:53:24,196 Speaker 1: I mean, to this day, when I go to New Orleans, 1009 00:53:24,276 --> 00:53:27,036 Speaker 1: I'm you know, yeah, I'm a writer, but I'm Tom 1010 00:53:27,036 --> 00:53:31,236 Speaker 1: and Diana Lewis's son and uh and thus interpreted by 1011 00:53:31,596 --> 00:53:35,356 Speaker 1: bye and and I could spend weeks in New Orleans 1012 00:53:35,596 --> 00:53:38,956 Speaker 1: trying to get someone to take me seriously without without succeeding. 1013 00:53:39,596 --> 00:53:42,756 Speaker 1: So that's just a different attitude towards life. And I 1014 00:53:42,796 --> 00:53:44,676 Speaker 1: loved it. I growing up. I just I didn't have 1015 00:53:45,276 --> 00:53:48,876 Speaker 1: I mean, I eventually sort of developed ambition, but it 1016 00:53:48,996 --> 00:53:52,036 Speaker 1: I didn't. It wasn't there all the time. Like one 1017 00:53:52,036 --> 00:53:53,956 Speaker 1: of the things that I mean is different from my 1018 00:53:54,036 --> 00:53:58,076 Speaker 1: children My life and my children's lives is they have 1019 00:53:58,236 --> 00:54:02,876 Speaker 1: forced upon them enormous anxiety to like you're supposed to achieve. 1020 00:54:03,596 --> 00:54:06,036 Speaker 1: And no one even no one ever suggested that to 1021 00:54:06,076 --> 00:54:08,116 Speaker 1: me that I was supposed to achieve something. 1022 00:54:08,436 --> 00:54:09,876 Speaker 2: Do you think you sit on them? 1023 00:54:10,116 --> 00:54:13,636 Speaker 1: I've tried not to, you know, It's it is an 1024 00:54:13,716 --> 00:54:18,036 Speaker 1: unfortunate byproduct of being a successful author, Like my books 1025 00:54:18,076 --> 00:54:20,236 Speaker 1: are out there and I'm on TV and all that crap. 1026 00:54:21,156 --> 00:54:25,876 Speaker 1: That they see me as a success, and it probably 1027 00:54:25,916 --> 00:54:27,916 Speaker 1: they internalize it as well. I have to be a 1028 00:54:27,956 --> 00:54:31,916 Speaker 1: success too, so in that sense, maybe I do. But 1029 00:54:31,956 --> 00:54:34,956 Speaker 1: I try to explain to them that the success should 1030 00:54:34,996 --> 00:54:36,916 Speaker 1: just be thought of as like whatever, it's a byproduct 1031 00:54:36,916 --> 00:54:39,556 Speaker 1: of doing something I really love doing, and that the 1032 00:54:39,636 --> 00:54:43,756 Speaker 1: goal is to move through life in a way that 1033 00:54:44,036 --> 00:54:46,876 Speaker 1: you don't you don't miss the thing that you really 1034 00:54:46,876 --> 00:54:48,636 Speaker 1: love to do, that you don't walk away from it 1035 00:54:48,636 --> 00:54:51,236 Speaker 1: by mistake, that you that you're alive to it when 1036 00:54:51,236 --> 00:54:54,916 Speaker 1: it walks in the front door. And we shall see 1037 00:54:55,076 --> 00:54:59,996 Speaker 1: if I've succeeded in getting that message across. That doesn't 1038 00:54:59,996 --> 00:55:04,436 Speaker 1: sound like bad advice. I don't disapprove of that person. 1039 00:55:04,956 --> 00:55:11,156 Speaker 1: My youngest walker is sixteen years old, and I try 1040 00:55:11,356 --> 00:55:13,516 Speaker 1: to live that with him. I mean I try. I 1041 00:55:13,516 --> 00:55:16,956 Speaker 1: try to explain, like the trick to happiness is finding 1042 00:55:16,956 --> 00:55:18,876 Speaker 1: the things you like to do in doing them and 1043 00:55:18,916 --> 00:55:21,916 Speaker 1: not trying to be famous or be rich or any 1044 00:55:21,956 --> 00:55:24,636 Speaker 1: of that. And it's funny, I sometimes find myself talking 1045 00:55:24,676 --> 00:55:27,596 Speaker 1: to like a deaf eared boy, like he just doesn't believe. 1046 00:55:27,636 --> 00:55:30,396 Speaker 1: He doesn't believe me. He's easy for you to say, 1047 00:55:30,436 --> 00:55:35,156 Speaker 1: it's basically his attitude towards it all. Soon we're gonna 1048 00:55:35,156 --> 00:55:36,436 Speaker 1: do kids. I'm gonna tell you fun can't tell you 1049 00:55:36,436 --> 00:55:38,636 Speaker 1: a funny story to end on. I don't know if 1050 00:55:38,636 --> 00:55:41,476 Speaker 1: we're about to end. But before I walked on the 1051 00:55:41,516 --> 00:55:43,796 Speaker 1: out of the door on the book tour, word had 1052 00:55:43,796 --> 00:55:46,276 Speaker 1: gotten out in his school or whatever that I had 1053 00:55:46,316 --> 00:55:49,316 Speaker 1: actually been living in Sam bankmin Free's life for the 1054 00:55:49,396 --> 00:55:51,636 Speaker 1: last eighteen months, and I had this book that was 1055 00:55:51,676 --> 00:55:53,396 Speaker 1: going to come out, and that was incredible. How did 1056 00:55:53,396 --> 00:55:55,836 Speaker 1: I know? You know all that stuff? And we were 1057 00:55:55,876 --> 00:55:58,276 Speaker 1: sitting on a sofa. We were talking about his homework, 1058 00:55:58,316 --> 00:56:01,316 Speaker 1: his history homework. We're talking about this kind of weirdly appropriately, 1059 00:56:01,356 --> 00:56:04,236 Speaker 1: the Safe, the Salem witch trials, and talking about mobs. 1060 00:56:04,556 --> 00:56:07,556 Speaker 1: And when we were finished, he was it was late 1061 00:56:07,556 --> 00:56:09,356 Speaker 1: at night, and he was kind of tired and gets 1062 00:56:09,356 --> 00:56:10,996 Speaker 1: tired all of a sudden, He's eight years old all 1063 00:56:11,036 --> 00:56:13,716 Speaker 1: over again. And he looks up. He says, Dad, are 1064 00:56:13,756 --> 00:56:16,636 Speaker 1: you a genius? And I said, no, no, no, not 1065 00:56:16,676 --> 00:56:19,956 Speaker 1: a genius. He said, would anybody say you're a genius? 1066 00:56:20,636 --> 00:56:23,436 Speaker 1: And I said, only some stupid people, like nobody would 1067 00:56:23,436 --> 00:56:25,636 Speaker 1: say I'm really say I'm a genius. And he said, 1068 00:56:26,156 --> 00:56:28,796 Speaker 1: there's like this relief that came over his face, and 1069 00:56:28,836 --> 00:56:31,036 Speaker 1: he said, that's what I thought, because you never say 1070 00:56:31,036 --> 00:56:37,756 Speaker 1: anything that's that intelligent. I thought some of the good 1071 00:56:37,756 --> 00:56:38,436 Speaker 1: has happened here. 1072 00:56:38,556 --> 00:56:41,356 Speaker 2: And you're saying this because the book tour you've been 1073 00:56:41,396 --> 00:56:43,836 Speaker 2: on has been a lot of people saying the same thing. 1074 00:56:44,116 --> 00:56:47,916 Speaker 1: The reactions of the book have been have been so volatile. 1075 00:56:47,956 --> 00:56:50,036 Speaker 1: I mean, Twitter is one thing, but the reactions I 1076 00:56:50,116 --> 00:56:53,476 Speaker 1: have gotten to the book have been as all over 1077 00:56:53,516 --> 00:56:55,716 Speaker 1: the place I've had all over the place reactions before, 1078 00:56:55,756 --> 00:56:58,996 Speaker 1: but more all over the place than usual, extremes in 1079 00:56:59,036 --> 00:56:59,676 Speaker 1: every direction. 1080 00:56:59,836 --> 00:57:02,276 Speaker 2: So your son prepared you, Yeah. 1081 00:57:01,796 --> 00:57:05,796 Speaker 1: He did. Family life prepared you. Right. You may think 1082 00:57:05,836 --> 00:57:07,236 Speaker 1: you're interesting, but they don't. 1083 00:57:08,396 --> 00:57:12,996 Speaker 2: That advice you gave in that clip for your kids, 1084 00:57:13,956 --> 00:57:16,876 Speaker 2: if it walks in through the door, like be alive 1085 00:57:17,036 --> 00:57:20,836 Speaker 2: enough to hold it to take it on. It seems 1086 00:57:20,836 --> 00:57:24,076 Speaker 2: to me that you have done that again and again 1087 00:57:24,156 --> 00:57:26,796 Speaker 2: and again, and you've done it with this new book. 1088 00:57:27,556 --> 00:57:31,156 Speaker 2: I guess I want to know when you started this book, 1089 00:57:31,196 --> 00:57:34,636 Speaker 2: you had that question, what is this story tell us 1090 00:57:34,636 --> 00:57:37,876 Speaker 2: about the world? What does Sam tell us about the world. 1091 00:57:38,796 --> 00:57:39,916 Speaker 2: Do you have an answer to that? 1092 00:57:40,596 --> 00:57:43,556 Speaker 1: Well, there's something Sam says that's I think recurs throughout 1093 00:57:43,556 --> 00:57:47,036 Speaker 1: the story and recurs throughout the response to the collapse 1094 00:57:47,036 --> 00:57:50,236 Speaker 1: of FDx. People see what they're looking for, they don't 1095 00:57:50,236 --> 00:57:53,116 Speaker 1: see what they're not looking for, and when someone really 1096 00:57:53,196 --> 00:57:56,276 Speaker 1: unusual walks into the room, they have a hard time 1097 00:57:56,716 --> 00:58:00,716 Speaker 1: placing him. The other thing I'd say is that runs 1098 00:58:00,796 --> 00:58:08,356 Speaker 1: right through the book is how unsettling and revealing it 1099 00:58:08,436 --> 00:58:11,156 Speaker 1: is when you have a character who's devoid of feeling 1100 00:58:11,676 --> 00:58:14,156 Speaker 1: when there's no when you try to strip life of 1101 00:58:14,196 --> 00:58:16,756 Speaker 1: emotional content and you kind of try to denature it 1102 00:58:17,356 --> 00:58:20,236 Speaker 1: and reduce it to a math problem the way like 1103 00:58:20,316 --> 00:58:24,076 Speaker 1: an AI would how much you lose, what you gain, 1104 00:58:24,116 --> 00:58:28,436 Speaker 1: and what you lose. It's an incredible character study of 1105 00:58:28,716 --> 00:58:30,636 Speaker 1: that particular character trait. 1106 00:58:31,276 --> 00:58:35,196 Speaker 2: When we're done here, you're going to have a meeting 1107 00:58:35,516 --> 00:58:37,836 Speaker 2: that you're going to do a book event, and then 1108 00:58:37,996 --> 00:58:41,356 Speaker 2: you're going to go to New York City to see 1109 00:58:41,396 --> 00:58:45,396 Speaker 2: Sam testify. Is that right correct? How do you think 1110 00:58:45,396 --> 00:58:46,396 Speaker 2: this is going to play out? 1111 00:58:46,636 --> 00:58:49,716 Speaker 1: You know it's it's The sentencing is curious. It's not clear. 1112 00:58:50,276 --> 00:58:52,716 Speaker 1: The judge is a hanging judge. He's a tough sentencer, 1113 00:58:53,556 --> 00:58:56,116 Speaker 1: and the judge doesn't like him. But the judge has 1114 00:58:56,356 --> 00:59:00,116 Speaker 1: enormous latitude as to the sentence, so it's not clear 1115 00:59:00,196 --> 00:59:02,876 Speaker 1: exactly what the sentence will be. It isn't even if 1116 00:59:02,916 --> 00:59:05,236 Speaker 1: he's convicted of all the charges. The most the judge 1117 00:59:05,236 --> 00:59:06,956 Speaker 1: can sentence him to is one hundred and twenty years. 1118 00:59:06,956 --> 00:59:09,316 Speaker 1: But he could say you're also free to go. He 1119 00:59:09,356 --> 00:59:11,636 Speaker 1: could say anything. I don't know what the judge is 1120 00:59:11,676 --> 00:59:15,356 Speaker 1: going to do, how I think it plays out. I 1121 00:59:15,356 --> 00:59:17,276 Speaker 1: don't know how much more there is to play out. 1122 00:59:17,836 --> 00:59:19,516 Speaker 1: It's pretty clear he's going to be convicted. 1123 00:59:20,076 --> 00:59:21,236 Speaker 2: Do you want him to be punished? 1124 00:59:22,716 --> 00:59:25,276 Speaker 1: He needs to be punished in some way. I don't 1125 00:59:25,276 --> 00:59:28,236 Speaker 1: think he's just going to escape punishment. It seems a 1126 00:59:28,276 --> 00:59:30,556 Speaker 1: waste to stick them away in jail for a life. 1127 00:59:31,356 --> 00:59:34,436 Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel a mixture of like, yeah, 1128 00:59:34,476 --> 00:59:36,876 Speaker 1: he did things, he did things he shouldn't have done. 1129 00:59:37,036 --> 00:59:41,116 Speaker 1: He broke the law almost certainly, and when people do that, 1130 00:59:41,156 --> 00:59:44,756 Speaker 1: they are punished. There's a part of me that, even 1131 00:59:44,756 --> 00:59:48,236 Speaker 1: as I think that, I also feel kind of sympathy 1132 00:59:48,276 --> 00:59:50,956 Speaker 1: for the situation. When I first met him and I 1133 00:59:50,956 --> 00:59:53,916 Speaker 1: started to watch him move through the world, I thought, 1134 00:59:54,276 --> 00:59:56,836 Speaker 1: there's a place for this person that there would never 1135 00:59:56,956 --> 01:00:00,396 Speaker 1: have been in earlier in other times on Wall Street 1136 01:00:00,716 --> 01:00:06,116 Speaker 1: in society, this instant child billionaire is this new character 1137 01:00:06,716 --> 01:00:11,196 Speaker 1: and willingness to accept as an authority a person who 1138 01:00:11,276 --> 01:00:14,836 Speaker 1: generates vast amounts of wealth for himself very quickly, without 1139 01:00:14,916 --> 01:00:18,556 Speaker 1: knowing very much about who this person is, and allow 1140 01:00:18,716 --> 01:00:22,596 Speaker 1: them to start exercising influence over the culture in all 1141 01:00:22,676 --> 01:00:25,076 Speaker 1: kinds of ways that you might not if you knew 1142 01:00:25,076 --> 01:00:29,716 Speaker 1: who this person was. And it's partly a byproduct of 1143 01:00:29,756 --> 01:00:34,596 Speaker 1: a collapse in trust in institutions, governments. All the rest 1144 01:00:34,596 --> 01:00:37,916 Speaker 1: is sort of looking to this person to do what 1145 01:00:37,956 --> 01:00:41,156 Speaker 1: our institutions should do, so putting in a position of 1146 01:00:41,196 --> 01:00:44,156 Speaker 1: authority that really probably no individuals should be. 1147 01:00:44,396 --> 01:00:48,116 Speaker 2: In my last question, because we had to go. The 1148 01:00:48,156 --> 01:00:51,756 Speaker 2: thing that you have, I think cemented over the years 1149 01:00:52,316 --> 01:00:56,596 Speaker 2: is a trust between you and the readers. I think 1150 01:00:56,596 --> 01:00:59,676 Speaker 2: that's why people keep coming back to as readers. It's 1151 01:00:59,916 --> 01:01:03,636 Speaker 2: probably why people keep agreeing to be subjects in your books. 1152 01:01:04,716 --> 01:01:10,756 Speaker 2: And I'm curious because when Dixie passed said I didn't 1153 01:01:10,756 --> 01:01:13,356 Speaker 2: know if I wanted to write again. I suppose as 1154 01:01:13,396 --> 01:01:17,436 Speaker 2: we leave, I wondered, now, two and a half years 1155 01:01:17,476 --> 01:01:21,556 Speaker 2: since she left us, how do you feel about writing 1156 01:01:21,676 --> 01:01:22,356 Speaker 2: in this moment? 1157 01:01:22,676 --> 01:01:25,396 Speaker 1: Just loved it. I mean, I took such joy and pleasure. 1158 01:01:25,436 --> 01:01:27,236 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have more joy than I should have taken 1159 01:01:27,276 --> 01:01:29,956 Speaker 1: in writing the story. I've had this feeling several times 1160 01:01:29,956 --> 01:01:32,116 Speaker 1: and would that I have it several times again. I 1161 01:01:32,156 --> 01:01:34,556 Speaker 1: felt I was limited only by my abilities. I thought 1162 01:01:34,556 --> 01:01:38,356 Speaker 1: that the world had generated, once again this material that 1163 01:01:38,516 --> 01:01:40,876 Speaker 1: was so good. I could only screw it up. And 1164 01:01:40,956 --> 01:01:45,596 Speaker 1: having that gives me enormous pleasure, the same pleasure like 1165 01:01:45,596 --> 01:01:48,476 Speaker 1: whatever that happy place is I'm in when I'm writing, 1166 01:01:48,516 --> 01:01:52,316 Speaker 1: it's there, and so I feel great about it. My 1167 01:01:52,436 --> 01:01:55,316 Speaker 1: worry when I think about writing now is that I 1168 01:01:55,396 --> 01:01:58,556 Speaker 1: force it, like that I go force the need to 1169 01:01:58,596 --> 01:02:01,996 Speaker 1: go write a book rather than sit back and let 1170 01:02:02,036 --> 01:02:04,476 Speaker 1: it walk in the door. This walked in the door, 1171 01:02:04,596 --> 01:02:07,836 Speaker 1: and I think other ones will. But I think I 1172 01:02:07,876 --> 01:02:09,636 Speaker 1: want to be careful to make sure sure that I 1173 01:02:09,676 --> 01:02:11,516 Speaker 1: only write the books that feel like they really need 1174 01:02:11,556 --> 01:02:13,756 Speaker 1: to be written, because that's the joy. That's the joy, 1175 01:02:13,876 --> 01:02:14,876 Speaker 1: it's the pleasure of that. 1176 01:02:15,836 --> 01:02:20,076 Speaker 2: Michael Lewis, thank you for sitting and congratulations on the book. 1177 01:02:20,276 --> 01:02:49,676 Speaker 3: Thank you, Sam, And that's our show. 1178 01:02:50,676 --> 01:02:53,196 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to leave us 1179 01:02:53,236 --> 01:02:57,516 Speaker 2: five stars on Spotify, Apple wherever you do your listening. 1180 01:02:57,716 --> 01:02:59,276 Speaker 2: I want to give a special thanks this week to 1181 01:02:59,316 --> 01:03:03,556 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Riley, the publishing team at w W Norton, Lydia, 1182 01:03:03,756 --> 01:03:07,596 Speaker 2: Jean Kott, and of course, our guest and fellow Pushkin 1183 01:03:07,716 --> 01:03:12,916 Speaker 2: podcaster Mike to order his new book, Going Infinite, The 1184 01:03:13,036 --> 01:03:15,636 Speaker 2: Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. Be sure to 1185 01:03:15,716 --> 01:03:20,076 Speaker 2: visit our website at talk easypod dot com. There you'll 1186 01:03:20,076 --> 01:03:24,156 Speaker 2: also find other episodes with great writers including Zadi Smith, 1187 01:03:24,316 --> 01:03:28,236 Speaker 2: fran Lebowitz, David Sedaris, min Jin Lee, and Hilton Nows. 1188 01:03:28,836 --> 01:03:33,236 Speaker 2: To hear those and more Pushkin Podcasts listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 1189 01:03:33,396 --> 01:03:36,276 Speaker 2: or wherever you like to listen. You can also follow 1190 01:03:36,356 --> 01:03:40,556 Speaker 2: us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at talk easypod. If you 1191 01:03:40,596 --> 01:03:42,996 Speaker 2: want to join our mailing list, drop me a line 1192 01:03:43,076 --> 01:03:48,476 Speaker 2: at SF at talk easypod dot com. That's SF at 1193 01:03:48,556 --> 01:03:51,836 Speaker 2: talk easypod dot com. You can also purchase one of 1194 01:03:51,836 --> 01:03:54,316 Speaker 2: our mugs at Come and Cream or Navy, or our 1195 01:03:54,396 --> 01:03:58,836 Speaker 2: vinyl record with fran Leibowitz at talk easypod dot com 1196 01:03:58,996 --> 01:04:03,196 Speaker 2: slash shop Talk easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our 1197 01:04:03,236 --> 01:04:07,356 Speaker 2: executive producer is Jennixi Bravo. Our associate producer is Caitlin Dryden. 1198 01:04:07,516 --> 01:04:10,636 Speaker 2: Today's talk was edited by Kaitlin Dryden and mixed by 1199 01:04:10,716 --> 01:04:14,716 Speaker 2: Andrew Vastola. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations 1200 01:04:14,756 --> 01:04:17,916 Speaker 2: are by Chris Chenoy. Video and graphics by Ian Chang, 1201 01:04:17,996 --> 01:04:21,876 Speaker 2: Derek gaberzak Ian Jones and Ethan Seneca. Photographs today are 1202 01:04:21,916 --> 01:04:24,276 Speaker 2: by Julius chu House. I want to thank our team 1203 01:04:24,396 --> 01:04:28,596 Speaker 2: at Pushkin Industries, Justin Richmond, Julia Barton, John Snars, Kerrie Brody, 1204 01:04:28,676 --> 01:04:32,356 Speaker 2: Heather Fane, Eric Sandler, Jordan McMillan, Cura Posey, Tara Machado, 1205 01:04:32,476 --> 01:04:37,876 Speaker 2: Jason Gambrell, Justine Lang, Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. I'm 1206 01:04:37,916 --> 01:04:41,476 Speaker 2: Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll 1207 01:04:41,476 --> 01:04:45,396 Speaker 2: see you back here next week with another episode until 1208 01:04:45,436 --> 01:04:47,876 Speaker 2: the Stay Safe and So Long.