WEBVTT - U.S. Anti-Climate Agenda: So What? Who Cares?! 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:11.840 Hi, Mark, So are you ready to talk about US politics? 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:14.600 Absolutely not, Danta as a DC native, all I want 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.000 to talk about the Nationals. They won the World Series 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.599 this past week, and I vote let's just skip energy, 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.040 climate in politics and just talk about baseball. So this 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:24.479 is the first World Series championship in d C in 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.159 eighty six years, by the oldest team by age of 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.320 the of any squad ever who started the season with 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.560 nineteen wins and thirty one losses. The worst team start 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:34.839 for a team that ever won the World Series animated 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.040 the playoffs is a wild card and based elimination. Five 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.320 times throughout talk about that. That was about as much 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:43.640 as I've ever wanted to know about the Nationals. Thanks 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.559 a lot for that, Mark. Well, how about something a 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.720 little closer to my heart. Let's talk about the US 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.680 pulling out of the Paris Agreement. A couple of weeks 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.000 back on this show, we talked about how the US 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.120 was technically still in but now it looks like we 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.240 are starting to push the paper work around and the 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:06.040 US is officially pulling out. This is uh tough, because 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.000 there's just so much going on in d C these days. 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.040 Let's say perhaps it was the best of times, it 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.399 was the worst of times, or maybe just the most 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.360 distracted of times, because it is really hard to get 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.560 a sense for what is actually going on in the 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.360 areas that b e F covers, because it seems pretty 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.040 much everybody is distracted by the campaign and these topics 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.119 aren't exactly front of mind for some of the candidates 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.400 and their speeches. Hopefully we can change that. Yeah, we're 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.240 in luck. So today we've got Ethan Zindler with us, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.560 who leads benef in the America's but actually, very importantly 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.400 back in the day, um, we were both based in 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:42.240 d C and we'd go to the Nationals games together 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.319 when they were a brand new team. Really market you 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.320 had to bring U back to the national absolutely did. Anyway, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.360 let's talk about the fact that Ethan's and there wrote 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.800 a VI I P comment earlier this year for BEENF 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.680 titled time is running Short for Trump's anticlimate agenda, as 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.680 well as an endlest reaction that was titled Democrats go 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.520 to hown on climate. You can find both of these 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.240 on the Bloomberg terminal at b NF go or on 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.120 BNF dot com. Also, please remember that BNF does not 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.080 provide investment or strategy advice, and you can hear the 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:13.960 full disclaimer at the end of the show. This is 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.440 Dana Perkins and this is Mark Taylor and you're listening 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.079 to Switch on the BNF podcast. So let's hear from 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.160 Ethan on US politics and the current say to play 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:25.720 for transport, energy, climate. Ethan, thank you for joining us today. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:27.160 Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here in 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.359 the studio. Ethan is joining us from Washington, d C. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.040 Where I would say most people who live there no 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.360 a thing or two about politics, but fortunately it's actually 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.760 part of your job. UM. And today we're going to 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:42.000 delve into three things that are the b NF side 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.400 of the political spectrum. So let's dive into transportation, energy, 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.160 and carbon emissions. Which one should we start with? What 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.440 do you think, Mark? Transport sounds great? So what's going 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.799 on in moving around in the US? Gosh, what's not where? 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.080 We We like to drive big cars in the US, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:58.840 as you as you know, we like to drive very 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.400 large vehicles and UM, as a result of that and 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.919 the fact that our CEO two emissions have been declining 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.840 from the power sector, the transportation sector is now the 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.320 single's biggest contributor to CEO two emissions in the US. 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.079 And while we have been making generally actually progress on 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.560 improving mileage efficiency of the cars that people drive, that's 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.440 actually started to level off a bit. Uh. And the 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.480 main thing in terms of policy and politics is a 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.280 giant fight between the Trump administration and the state of 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:35.320 California about vehicle standards. UH. Tough one to say, right, 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:40.200 I mean, basically, the what's at stake here is the 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.920 you know, setting standards that would arrive eventually from thirty 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.160 six to forty six miles per gallon requirement UM into 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.720 about halfway into the next decade. California and a bunch 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.480 of other states essentially have set the targets themselves. The 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.600 federal government under Obama was syncd up with California. UH. 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:00.800 And then Trump came along and said, to wait a second. 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.080 You know, I'm the federal government. I don't like this policy, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.560 and they put the brakes on uh. And that has 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.320 led to a huge fight between California and the federal 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.040 government because for years California has had what's called a 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.479 waiver to essentially set its own policies, and now the 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.640 Trump administration is challenging that and it all appears likely 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:24.880 to go to court. One further complication out of all 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.680 this is that four major automakers have basically said that 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:32.159 they're perfectly happy to comply with California standards. Uh. And 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.880 meanwhile they and all the other automakers are saying, wait 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.120 a second, we just give us one set of rules 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.800 that we can abide by here. We do not like 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.960 multiple sets of rules that are difficult to understand, and 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.359 we don't want to make two sets of vehicles to 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.599 serve the US market overall. So there's a fair amount 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.320 of sort of confusion. Um, but to some degree, Um, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:55.320 you know, I think the smart thinking a lot of 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.080 among a lot of automakers is they better continue to 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.480 try to improve efficiency because a they don't know who's 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.240 going to be president next and whether this is all 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.680 going to change again, and be they don't know how 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.400 this court case is going to shake out, and so 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:08.960 at the end of the day, they may still end 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:10.960 up being left with something that looks a lot like 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.440 what California and the Obama administration had wanted to do. All. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.800 In reality, do automakers even make two sets of vehicles? 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.599 I mean, presumably they would cater to the more stringent market, 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:24.400 and then that would have an impact on the rest 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.600 of the country, which may in fact be the argument 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.640 from a policy standpoint, is that correct, that's the conservative 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.640 thing to do if you're operating in a market, and 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.880 presumably that's what most automakers are doing right now. I mean, 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:36.599 I would say, you know, look, I'm not I'm not 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.440 the regulatory affairs person that you know, GM or whatever, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.640 but the smartest thing to do would be to assume 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.400 you're going to get the toughest set of standards and 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.440 continue to plan accordingly. And of course we're seeing lots 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.920 of announcements around electric vehicles and all kinds of efforts 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.960 that it suggests the automakers are trying to do some 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:55.640 of the right things. On the other hand, it's worth 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.320 noting that GM and Forward in particular make huge amounts 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.159 of their money off of selling pickup trucks and SUVs, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.679 which Florida F one series I believe is the most 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.360 popular car in the United States. Is it not very 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.200 popular car and very profitable for the manufacturer? And GM 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:17.080 and Dodge have similar models, So yeah, they're they're being 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:21.720 pulled in multiple directions. So this dovetails really well. With emissions, 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:23.760 because this is a big part of the emissions pie. 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.520 But then you have the part of the emissions pie 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:30.400 that comes from the energy industry. What is happening there 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.479 from a federal I guess, and maybe then to state level, 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.479 well a lot. I mean, let's start with the big picture, 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.400 which is the US and the power sector is rapidly decarbonizing. 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.280 So we used to get about half our power from 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.560 from coal really as recently as like ten twelve years ago, 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.200 and now that's down this year, maybe as low as 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.919 tent by the time of the year is over. So 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.560 it's a huge decline in reliance on coal, and basically 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.680 all of that has been made up by a combination 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.560 of natural gas, wind, and solar with it most really 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.240 in that order more or less in terms of the 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.520 contributions that are being made. So our CEO two emissions 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.839 have been going down pretty dramatically as a result of 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.400 all those changes in the power sector. And that's I 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.680 think generally, Um, you know, certainly from a climate perspective, 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.040 very good news. Um, you know, there's then plenty of 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.880 other things going on beneath the surface around all of that. 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.600 As you add more renewables, it creates new complications for markets. Uh. 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.440 And meanwhile, Trump, you know from the from the Washington perspective, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:33.400 Trump ran promising to revitalize the coal industry and that 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.040 is not been an easy thing to accomplish despite his 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:42.120 best efforts. So what is causing the volume of coal retirements? 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:43.920 I know that we definitely have a house of view, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.120 but from the US standpoint, we'll just start with the 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.240 fact that these coal plants are ancient. I mean, we 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.360 have plants that are some plantses are like over forty 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:54.760 fifty sixty years old. The average age, I think is 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.720 well over thirty years old. So you know, we have 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.040 these are not efficiently operateding you know, projects in many ways, 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.840 and so the economics aren't great. And then you combine 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:06.960 that with the fact that we have super cheap gas 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.840 in the US, I mean really in West Texas it's 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.080 almost free um at this point. And then you have 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.760 the fact that when renewables participate in the grid, they've 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.600 been been into essentially zero cost uh. And so those 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.600 factors basically are effectively driving coal out of the market. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.720 There are certainly some regulations on coal. We have the 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:31.160 Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative in the Northeastern states that puts frankly, 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.000 a relatively small price on c O two emissions, and 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.240 we have a carbon program out in the West coast 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.160 similar relatively small price on carbon. But the main thing 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.520 has just been the economics are not working for coal, 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.520 and now on top of that, no one's going to 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.840 finance coal. That's the last thing is that, you know, 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.520 banks and everybody have generally pledged not to finance coal 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.160 at all. There's been a pull back on restrictions. Could 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.280 you outline what some of those have been. I know 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:55.960 some have been coming from the e p A on 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:00.360 various aspects of kind of generally environmental things, but which 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.720 of those specifically address things like carbon emissions and greenhouse 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.560 gases more widely? So it's worth just before I even 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.240 go all the way down this road, I just say, 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.520 wasn't noting that I don't think this really even matters 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.040 that much. But the reality of it is is that 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.680 the Trump administration came in and immediately sought to undo 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.559 what the Obama administration had done, which was a regulation 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.520 that was sort of informally known as the Clean Power Plan, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.080 and the Clean Power Plan essentially set a goal of 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.480 reducing CEO two emissions from the power sector. At at 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.760 it requested or essentially demanded that states formulate plans to 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.720 do this individually. If they didn't comply, the federal government 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.000 was going to do it for them. Frankly, we at 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:45.800 ben F and the U S were never that impressed 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.880 by the ambition of that regulation to begin with, because 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:50.599 we thought that the US power sector was going to 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.199 decrbonize anyway. So then Trump came in and made a 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.120 huge deal, Oh, you were getting rid of this policy. 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.800 We're putting the brakes on it, and they've done that. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:09:59.959 But the reality of it is, at least an RV 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.880 is it's not that big a deal because the policy 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.960 itself was not what was going to be driving the 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.120 market anyway. So they did put the brakes on that regulation. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.720 They are they we rewriting it um. But you know, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.560 reality marches on and basically, coal plants have continued to 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.600 retire in the US, the economics continue to not make sense. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.400 Gas continues to be super cheap, renewables are getting more 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.600 and more mandated, and so generally speaking, the trend is 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.880 not you know been you know that you know hasn't 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.079 changed very much at all. So there's the real power 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.800 in the US lie with the states. It's a big 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.920 part of the story. And in fact, you know, one 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.000 of the things that people don't talk that much about 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.080 in terms of Trump and energy is is certainly a 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.960 focus on his sort of efforts to to deregulate and 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.240 is very outspoken, let's just say, unconventional views about climate 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.080 change um. But the reality of it is that in 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.240 two thousand and eighteen there was such a backlash against 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.240 Trump at the state level with Democrats a you know, 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.600 first they won back you know, the House of Representatives 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.240 at the federal level, but back the state level, they 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.120 want to think, well over three hundred state legislative seats. 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.000 They took control of an additional six state legislative chambers. 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.640 And what that's meant is that a very productive twenty 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.360 nineteen in terms of policies supporting clean energy. I think 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.640 we have about half a dozen new states that now 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:20.720 are aiming for renewable energy and mandating it UM. States 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.280 like Colorado, Nevada, and New Mexico others that are all 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.920 aiming that. Maine has passed something very recently as well. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.000 So the backlash that's taken place at the state level 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.320 has been pretty strong. Um. Now, granted, not all states. 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.880 You know, Oklahoma, you know, Kansas, you know, they're not 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:37.920 you know, and by the way, those are those states 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.680 are very strong for for huge states for renewables, but 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.880 not because they're like necessary because they're mandating in any 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.560 kind of huge way. Um. But the reality is that 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.040 the gap between what the federal government's trying to do 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:50.920 and what some states are trying to do is getting 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.040 wider and wider. But in the US, states do wield 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.120 a lot of power over it. They can mandate certain 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.720 amounts of renewables come online, they can sign onto carbon 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.679 duction goals, all kinds of things. Is it still needed 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.480 to mandate these things to come online? Or is it 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.240 just kind of happened? Well, I think there's certainly some 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.000 particularly maybe some not quite with an environmental community, but 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.679 some who Yeah, I would say some environmental community look 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:14.480 at the power sector and are kind of starting to 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.280 They won't say this out loud, but they're sort of saying, okay, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.120 power sector, check the box. Like okay, decarbonizing coals kind 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:22.400 of on its way out. We want to make sure 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.520 we get rid of that last Eventually, what will be 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.720 ten of coal that will be pretty hard to take offline. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.520 So there's definitely still a focus on that, and I 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.440 think some of the environmental community are also starting to 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.160 point the finger up gas and not wanting to build 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.839 more gas. At that point. It's a bridge fuel, right, Well, 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.320 that's me. That's interesting. So well, I mean, under the 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.440 Obama administration, I think, in my opinion, these gas became 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:48.920 sort of viewed as, yeah, a big part of the solution, 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:50.880 and I think a lot of people now are at 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.880 least again on the environmental side, are starting to rethink 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.280 whether they want to be supportive of that and the 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.120 new sort of pivot. It's not clearly been stated, but 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:00.840 it's just like, Okay, we've built a lot of gas. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.840 It's helped bring a lot of coal offline. And again 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.720 this is the environmental community perspective, but let's not build 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.840 any more gas because now we want to actually, you know, 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.800 the bridge is enough bridging. Let's let's you know, renewables 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:15.360 are cheap enough, we can do more of this. And 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.560 by the way, renewables plus batteries are cheap enough that 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:20.600 they can actually compete with gas, and so I think 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.840 that's actually a fair argument for them to be making. 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.560 But back to the original questions sort of, you know, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.679 on the power sector, that then isn't raised some questions. 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.080 If we say, and I'm not saying entirely agree, but 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.040 if we say problem solved, power sector decarbonizing, let's move 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.040 on to other stuff, that does bring more of the 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.640 focus back onto transportation. Because transportation is now the largest 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.800 contributor to CEO two emissions in the United States, and 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.680 we do like to drive big cars, and can we 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:48.920 do more? I think that's a fair question. I mean, 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.000 what do you think can be done in the transportation Well, 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.400 I mean we're certainly seeing a lot of a rollout 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.240 of these new electric vehicle models, and I think that 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.240 are making a dent. Not really understand trucks, right, I 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.200 mean not in a big way. Well on the trucking side, Um, 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.559 you know, Tesla does have its own you know, the 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:11.320 team wheeler that they they're gonna say they're gonna roll out. Yeah. 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.400 Well there's Rivian Is saying that they're going to make 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.360 an electric you know, pickup truck. I I'm I'm dubious 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.920 that we'll see that mass adoption of that sort of 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.520 any time, you know, really soon. Um, you know, if 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.840 you're asking me what my prescription is for decarbonizing the 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.720 transportation sector, I would say the you know, there are 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.760 new efforts, certainly to support electric vehicles. U. Senator Chuck Schumer, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.560 the minority leader in the Senate, just this morning, has 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.000 a piece in the New York Times about his effort 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.880 to support e V rollout and um, tying it to 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.680 manufacturing into jobs, into batteries and all that kind of stuff, 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.040 which I think is I think can can garner support 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.880 from across multiple parties, both you know, the automakers, the unions, 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.320 and you know and others environmentalists as well. UM. But 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.360 at the basic question of like Americans liking to to 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.880 drive cars they like to drive, I would say this 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:04.960 I have some more of a kind of qualitative answer, 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.920 which is, like I having driven an electric vehicle for 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.520 six years now, I would make the contention that we 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.120 do all the analysis of NF all the time about 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.240 the point where the economic crossover point comes and you 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.280 get the total cost of ownership, blah blah blah, all 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.480 that kind of stuff that makes sense. Evs are better products. 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.800 They're actually better in terms of they don't break down 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.560 as much much less, they're quieter, the acceleration is awesome, 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.680 so they're super fun to drive, and so I think 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.840 there's sort of an intangible element to this where the 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.880 more people get conditioned to actually trying an evy, the 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.720 more they'll like them. I think the range anxiety issue 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:46.440 is one that people just completely over magnify in the head. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.400 What's that you have it? I don't, but I have 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.600 people in my family who do have, so I think 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.240 you can get over that. I think the other thing is, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:55.720 I guess my point that is trying to make earlier 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.840 is that I think if people would look practically at 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.920 how they actually use their cars. We have a lot 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.360 of families with two cars in the United States, many many, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.960 which I know is a foreign concept largely here in 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:07.600 the UK and a lot of places in Europe, but 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:09.800 I don't know, it may not even be maybe something 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.480 under a majority, but a very large percentage of American 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.480 drivers have two cars. If they would stop and just think, Okay, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.160 how do I use these two cars? I think they 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.880 would recognize that they could easily have one car that 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.320 literally could have a range of less than a hundred 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.200 miles if they were, you know, if they would just 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.520 think about it, a little bit, but a hundred fifty 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.840 two miles definitely to fifty plus absolutely is fine. And 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.200 so I guess the point is there's a car in 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.280 many people's garage that's ready to be a TV already, 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.840 and they just don't they don't think about it. But 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.080 if they go for a test drive and they think 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.880 a little bit about it, they'll be like, wow, ay, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.760 I'll save money if I get this car ultimately because 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:49.640 I won't be paying for gasoline. B I won't have 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.840 to go to a gas station. I'll charge it at 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.840 home for the most part, um, you know, and and 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.400 see it'll be fun to drive. So I think people 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.840 will do that. I think that is what Transport Team 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.720 is actually seen that in these two car household where 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:05.639 you are seeing e V adoption, you're seeing it as 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.960 a second vehicle because that range anxiety does continue to exist, 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.200 and that switching over to two cars isn't necessarily happening, um, 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.439 and it's not Just be clear, it's not crazy, right, Like, 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.280 you know, I gotta go see you know my folks 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.720 up in Boston. It's an eight hour drive from DC 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.119 to Boston or whatever it is. Yeah, I need to 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:23.600 I don't want to. I don't want to be like 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.080 stuck on a turnpike somewhere waiting for some guy, you know, 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.480 finished chargings test slot. So what's in your garage, what's 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.879 what's your what's your demographic on that one you got? 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.800 But one of each? We we sort of we did 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.520 for six years. We had a Leaf UM and we 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.800 had a Honda CRV UM and the Honda CRV was 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.760 the long haul vehicle and the Leaf of the short up. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.840 We have further complications because we have a kid who's 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:49.359 going off to college now and will soon be a 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.000 one car family. So our compromises. We have a plug 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.760 in hybrid electric vehicle, which is a Volvo. So basically 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.600 my wife commutescent electric, but then on the weekends, if 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.679 we want to go much longer distance, that car can 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.920 go much further than that. Let your hair down. It's 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:14.280 a sweet Vehicle's let's talk happy place. So let's let's 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:16.760 talk a little bit about how you're charging that vehicle 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.240 and what's actually feeding into the grid. Now, I have 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.479 a specific question, which I know you're a little bit 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.679 passionate about. It has to do with wind. So you 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.479 mentioned earlier on in this episode that natural gas wind, solar, 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.520 you know, maybe having a bit momentum in the US, 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.879 and I'm thinking specifically wind. When you say wind in 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.399 the US, you mean on shore wind, but there is 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:43.480 offshore wind potential. Thus far, nothing installed correct across all 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.720 of the United State. Yes, we have I think five. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.040 It's okay that run around that to nothing. I think 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.639 that's fair. Okay. So there have been projects that have 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.399 gotten close and not worked out. My my in laws 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.199 live out Cape Cod, so I'm I'm somewhat familiar with 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.720 the Cape Wind projects that did not happen. But now 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.399 there is this Vineyard Wind series of projects, and there 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:14.000 is some regulatory elements that are actually quite pertinent right 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:15.800 now at this point kind of at the end of 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.480 twenty nineteen, which will impact the success or maybe lack thereof, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.919 of this project. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, So, 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.840 I mean that's well, first, just thanks for bringing up 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:27.800 Cape Wind, because way back when I used to be 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.160 a reporter writing about that project seventeen years ago now 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.840 out on Cape Cod and and at the time that 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.280 project was they eventually did to build the project for 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.840 about two hundred dollars a mega one hour Vineyard Wind, 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.439 which is sort of the it's not even fair to 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.480 call it successor about the newer, you know, much newer project. 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.600 They're looking to build that project about twenty miles south 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.040 of Martha's Vineyard in a tucket, so out of basically 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.880 out of eyesight for most people. UM, and they are 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.199 looking to their pp A that they offered was I 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:02.119 think sixty five actually, I mean about a third of 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:07.080