1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,519 Speaker 1: Rip Current is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 2: of the host, producers or parent company. Listener discretion is 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: it five This is a rip Current bonus episode. 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: You don't need to listen to follow the Rip Current storyline, 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: but it provides more information, context, and analysis to enhance 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: the main podcast. 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: Enjoy. 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: This is the second of two interviews I conducted with 10 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: experts in prison radical movements. I spoke with Brittany Friedman, 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: who is assistant professor of sociology at the University of 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: Southern California. She is the author of Carcerol Apartheid, How 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prisons. We talked about 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: the connection between freedom movements inside and outside prison, the 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: campaign by government and prison officials to eradicate the black 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,639 Speaker 1: freedom movement in California prisons, and the alliance between prison 17 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: guards and white supremacist prison gangs. 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 3: Well, I'm Brittany Friedman. I am an assistant professor of 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: sociology at the University of Southern California, and most of 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: my research looks at institutional predation, so essentially, not just 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 3: bad actors, but systematically how institutions themselves can be what 22 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: we would consider bad actors in terms of enacting policies 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 3: and informally or formally that cause systematic harm, often to 24 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: disenfranchised populations. And one of the ways I tend to 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: examine that is primarily through conditions of confinement, so incarceration, 26 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 3: but also in society and really thinking about how our 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: prisons are politically porous and so they mirror similar types 28 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 3: of control strategies that we see on the outside. 29 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: Can you just explain what you mean by politically porous? 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: Yes, So what I mean by that is a big 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 3: part of my work is looking at how the political 32 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 3: mobilization of the civil rights movement and the larger black 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: freedom struggle wasn't just present within prisons. Specifically, I'm looking 34 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 3: at California prisons, so there was this continuum between the 35 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: prison as an institution of control and the community in 36 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: struggle on the outside and on the outside. What we 37 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 3: saw during that era were coalitions across racial and ethnic boundaries, 38 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: very key. You know, famous coalitions come to mind in 39 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 3: terms of imagery when I say that, but also on 40 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: the inside there was a very strong effort to build coalitions, 41 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 3: and I became interested in studying the ways in which 42 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: the Department of Corrections back by other levels of law enforcement, 43 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: so thinking about cointail Pro at the time, also thinking 44 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: about larger state level agencies. 45 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: Co intel Pro was a controversial FBI program that officially 46 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: ran from nineteen fifty eight to nineteen seventy one. Its goal, 47 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: often employing illegal practices, was to disrupt, infiltrate, and discredit 48 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: organizations that the FBI considered subversive. Most of the targeted 49 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: groups were on the political left, including civil rights, black power, 50 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: and anti war organizations. We will examine co intel Pro 51 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: in greater depth in episode nine of Rip Current. 52 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: So how were they all organizing themselves to try to 53 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: squash these coalitions because we know from the research and 54 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: from popular media, we know about how they tried to 55 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: squash these coalitions on the outside, and so can think 56 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: of very key examples of trying to break up really 57 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: racial and ethnic unity around black freedom struggles or leftist 58 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: struggles of the time. And my research is thinking about, well, 59 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 3: what was happening in our prisons because they are poorous 60 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 3: people coming into the prison, are coming in with ideologies. 61 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 3: They don't just get incarcerated and lose their identity, right, 62 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: they bring it with them. They also gain new identities 63 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 3: from being in an environment with people who are bringing 64 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 3: their identities. And then also you have the Department of 65 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: Corrections trying to instill other identities, if you will, such 66 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 3: as being an inmate and being docile into people also. 67 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: So there's kind of this melting pot happening within prisons 68 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 3: within this larger struggles that we see historically. 69 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: There was a little break in our conversation to deal 70 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: with some background noise. We picked it up again with 71 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: Brittany continuing her explanation of the concept of political porousness. 72 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: So when I say that prisons are politically porous, what 73 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 3: I mean is that the political mobilization of the civil 74 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: rights movement and the larger Black freedom struggle wasn't just 75 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: present within prisons, right specifically California prisons. 76 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: There was a. 77 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: Continuum between the prison as an institution of control and 78 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 3: the community in struggle on the outside. And so on 79 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 3: the outside, you have at that time longstanding black political 80 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 3: movements happening, especially within religious groups that you have the 81 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: Nation of Islam, you have Black Christian churches mobilizing all 82 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 3: of the different cornerstones of the larger black freedom struggle 83 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: and the different sites of organizing. And you also have 84 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: racial and ethnic coalitions right going across the racial boundaries 85 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: that were really codified in state law and protected by 86 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: law enforcement. You have these coalitions working for a larger 87 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 3: black freedom but also for a leftist freedom agenda. And 88 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: on the inside in prisons you have the same thing happening. 89 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 3: So prisons they're built with walls, but they allow for 90 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 3: the transference of ideas, and that's what's key when we're 91 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: thinking about politically porous and ideas are brought in through people, 92 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: They're brought in through knowledge. 93 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 2: It's why the. 94 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: Department of Corrections for decades has always had a band 95 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: reading list. It's to prevent ideas from infiltrating that are 96 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 3: coming in from the outside, but also to prevent ideas 97 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 3: that are generated on the inside from people's experiences with incarceration, 98 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: with a type of political genocide that happens that I 99 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 3: can speak more about in my research, from getting out, 100 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 3: from knowledge of that, from getting out, I think what's 101 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 3: really key is thinking about how state efforts at the 102 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: federal level, thinking of quintil pro thinking of at the 103 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: state level, and then at the Department of Corrections level, 104 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: how they worked in tandem to try to prevent this 105 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: porousness from really spreading even more and generating coalitions from 106 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: the inside of prisons and also on the outside for 107 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: larger movements. And I think what's important to note is 108 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: that racial and ethnic coalitions in particular are essentially threatening 109 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: the racial order of the United States, which is really 110 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: the foundation for much of the other types of dispossession, 111 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: other types of harm that we see in our country 112 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: that are coming from a very classed and racist system. 113 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: And I think that those movements what they were trying 114 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 3: to do is say, look, you know, we are of 115 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: different colors, we might be of different backgrounds, However we 116 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: have this shared knowledge that the system is organized to 117 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: divide us and also to dispossess us for the enrichment, 118 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: often financial, of a few. And so that's what I 119 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: mean when I say porous, when I say politically porous, 120 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: and also really zeroing in on coalitions and how the 121 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: state is trying to squash them. 122 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: Interesting. There are a few things I took notes on 123 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: that I want to get back to. But what year 124 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: or what era do you start looking at when you're 125 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: taking a look at this dynamic or phenomenon. 126 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 3: So I start as early as the nineteen fifties, because 127 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 3: in much of the current work we focus on the 128 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 3: hyper incarceration of black people and how it rises significantly 129 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 3: in the nineties, But as early as nineteen six, black 130 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 3: men were five times as likely as white men to 131 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: be incarcerated. So when we're thinking about a systemic backlash 132 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: or a white backlash against the black freedom struggle as 133 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: really a decisive factor for mass incarceration, then we have 134 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: to shift our timeline into different how and when different 135 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 3: branches of law enforcement began implementing policies. 136 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: To repress black political. 137 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: Activity, and showcase how this expanded the capacity of ourcarceral system, 138 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 3: so the capacity of law enforcement, the capacity of prisons 139 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 3: to systematically squash freedom movements before the late nineteen sixties, 140 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 3: which tends to be a starting point for scholars, and 141 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: in my work. The reason I do this is because 142 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: I love to dig in archives and find things that 143 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 3: people would like to hide or would rather not have 144 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: be found. So in doing that that type of investigative 145 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 3: historical work, I found evidence from institutional records for the 146 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: Department of Corrections in California that there was this systematic 147 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: effort to eliminate the Black freedom movement in particular as 148 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: like a gateway to other movements in terms of rolling 149 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: out protocols to identify, track and neutralize people that identified 150 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 3: as black militants in prison, also after their release, as 151 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: early as the late nineteen fifties in California, and it's 152 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: very likely sooner, right because I've found records for the 153 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: late nineteen fifties, but it could be sooner. And what 154 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 3: I mean by protocols, I found memos and formal policies 155 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: instructing correctional personnel on what to look for, what a 156 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 3: militant might look for, what they might read, what you 157 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: could find in their cell, how they might speak, how 158 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 3: they might present themselves on the yard, and to note 159 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: that in their file to identify them, and then also 160 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 3: policies for sharing that information across other agencies once they 161 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 3: were released. And this is as early as the fifties, 162 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: and even before that time period, as early as nineteen 163 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: fifty three, I found archival documents noting how the California 164 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 3: Department of Corrections was going to build and expand what 165 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 3: we now know as adjustment centers, and what these centers 166 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: were trying to do is really they became a key 167 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: site of political repression within California prisons because at first 168 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: they were designed as like a holding place for people 169 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: who were determined to be problematic in the early fifties, 170 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 3: and the people that the Department of Corrections defined as 171 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 3: problematic in the early fifties dramatically shifts later. So early 172 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 3: they used words like psychotic inmates, people that had psychiatric 173 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 3: problems would be on the list to be identified and tracked. 174 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: But what happens is in the late fifties they start 175 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: to change who is identified as problematic. It becomes people 176 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: who are being identified and tracked using this black militant 177 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 3: subversive protocol. They began falling into the ranks of who 178 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: the ideal adjustment center prisoner is. And so even though 179 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 3: these systems were developed separately, they really come together in 180 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 3: a very short amount of time in the fifties. And 181 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: it's almost like just perfect horrific timing that the adjustment 182 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: center is created in such a systematized way in the 183 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: early fifties that it can then be quickly used once 184 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: they start developing these threat protocols in the late fifties. 185 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: So they go from sort of identifying people who have 186 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, psychological pathologies to sort of pathologizing political views. 187 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: How long did the adjustment centers last or are they 188 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: still around? And I just am ignorant of it. 189 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: Well, the adjustment centers lasted for decades. They're technically still around. 190 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: But the California Department of Corrections really shifted in the 191 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 3: late eighties, so specifically in nineteen eighty nine with the 192 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: building of Pelican Bay. So when Pelican Bay is built, 193 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: people who were filling those adjustment centers were some of 194 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 3: the first people sent to Pelican Bay. People that so, 195 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: for example, Hugo Panell who becomes, you know, a very 196 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 3: prolific figure in the prison movement, Black prison movement in California, 197 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 3: one of the first people sent to Pelican Bay, who, 198 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 3: through his writings and through I interviewed people who were 199 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: close to him at the time while he was incarcerated. 200 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 3: The Adjustment Center was very influential in political development because 201 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 3: it became this site of torture in the form of 202 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 3: solitary confinement as a means to adjust, hence the name 203 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 3: the adjustment center. They were actually thinking that we can 204 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: adjust people's behavior by having them here and then also 205 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: it became a site of torture where officers would allow 206 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: for racialized torture to happen. So people that I interviewed 207 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 3: talked about experiencing some of the worst acts by either 208 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 3: white correctional officers or allowing white incarcerated people to assault 209 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: and abuse them because they were basically hidden away in 210 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 3: this segment of the prison called the adjustment center, and 211 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 3: this was a way to try to root out their 212 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: political allegiance to a larger black struggle. But it was 213 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: also from one of the arguments I make in my 214 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: work is that the officers were also trying to really 215 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: enforce the racial line to prevent any sort of coalitions 216 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: from happening, specifically with white incarcerated people. They played a 217 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: very active role in keeping the boundary. I could give 218 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: examples of some of the ways they did that. The 219 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: most infamous ways are we know historically in California prisons 220 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 3: of some of the key shootings that happened that there 221 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: has been evidence to suggest that officers were behind orchestrating it. 222 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: So I'm thinking about the Solidad incident that led to 223 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: the death of three self identified black militants. Officer Opie 224 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 3: Miller who is a white correctional officer. It's now a 225 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: very famous event right in our history that's leading up 226 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: to the time period that you're looking at with Sarah 227 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 3: Jane Moore. But in nineteen seventy when Officer Opie Miller, 228 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 3: he shoots three black militants, shoots them on the yard 229 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: after an incident that is alleged it was orchestrated by 230 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 3: officers and members of the Arian Brotherhood and in order 231 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: to allow for these three people to be killed. And 232 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: they weren't just they were also leaders. They were very 233 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: well respected leaders in the black incarcerated population. Especially W. L. 234 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: Nolan in particular, is one of the people killed, who 235 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 3: is really an early mentor to those who end up 236 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: founding the Black Gorilla Family after his murder. So in 237 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: my work I show more of the everyday ways they 238 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 3: did this. So they would spread rumors to for example, 239 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 3: the white population that oh, you know, the black prisoners 240 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: are plotting, which would not be true. They would just 241 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: say this because they were trying to keep an environment 242 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 3: that would prevent them from ever having any sort of 243 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: realization that actually, we're all incarcerated and they're all like 244 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: officers are above all of US, but the officers kept 245 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: trying to foster a unity across these boundaries to use 246 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: for their own strategic ends, because we know what ends 247 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: up happening to some of the groups that they united with. 248 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: My forthcoming book shows how they were uniting with people 249 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: who ended up founding the Rian Brotherhood. But we know 250 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 3: that over time, once the Arian Brotherhood is no longer useful, 251 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 3: like they do end up being locked up in Pelican 252 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: Bay in other super federal facilities actually, but in the 253 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: early stages in the fifties, sixties, seventies, they are very 254 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: useful for the type of control strategies that I'm talking 255 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 3: about to keep this separation. I like to think of 256 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 3: it as old school divide and conquered. 257 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: The time period that I'm focused on in the podcast 258 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: is early seventies. Where do you see the origins of 259 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: h I guess this is it's like a continuation. But 260 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: where did the particular sort of political ideologies that seemed 261 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: to be really influential late sixties early seventies, when did 262 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: those develop? 263 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: Well, I would say that it's instead of develop, I 264 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 3: think of them as really crystallizing during the era that 265 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: you're concerned with. In terms of forming. I mean, I 266 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 3: can take for example, the reading list that people used. 267 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 3: They had political reading groups during the time period that 268 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: you're interested in, where they would meet in the yard 269 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: or in commissary or in yourselves and have these little 270 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: reading groups and share books. And this was a way 271 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 3: to generate solidarity, but also to teach and past ideas 272 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 3: and really for people to become indoctrinated in a particular framework, 273 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: a black radical leftist framework. And these ideas were coming 274 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 3: about as early as the late nineteenth century. And what 275 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: I mean by that is they were reading sociologists actually 276 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: like Marx, Engles Durkheim. They were reading people from the 277 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 3: early twentieth century, Marcus Garvey Dubois. So they're reading all 278 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 3: of these scholars and writers, some of whom were also activists, 279 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 3: and the time period that I'm looking at is reading. 280 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: Them in the fifties. 281 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 3: And also, I don't want to leave out how important 282 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 3: the Nation of Islam was as well in their own literature, 283 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: and there was really a unifying force amongst different black 284 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: militant groups, even if they didn't agree on religion. So 285 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 3: for me, the era that I look at is how 286 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 3: this started taking off in the fifties in sixties, and 287 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: then I am very much interested in when does it 288 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 3: actually crystallize into action, And that's for me, I would 289 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 3: make the art that it starts crystallizing into action in 290 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 3: the sixties because you have a series of events that 291 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 3: happen in California prisons where the Department of Corrections and 292 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 3: the white supremacist population amongst the incarcerated that would become 293 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 3: the areaan brotherhood essentially went too far. They amped up, 294 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 3: if you will, the violence. And it's because during that 295 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 3: time period in the sixties, you see a big influx 296 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: of black people into California prisons, many of whom do 297 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: self identify as either black militants or having allegiances, affiliations, 298 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: or affinities for the black freedom struggle, which makes sense, 299 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 3: right They're coming in from the outside, and that goes 300 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 3: back to my point about it being politically porous. 301 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: But also in the. 302 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: Sixties, you have a very strong contingent of white incarcerated 303 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 3: people who are also bringing with them their own societal allegiances, 304 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 3: their own ideas from the fifties and sixties about what 305 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 3: black freedom would be and their prejudices against it. They're 306 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 3: also bringing in their experiences in different organized groups. So 307 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: for example, bikers were very influential in the founding of 308 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: the Area and brotherhood. They're bringing in all of these 309 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: ideologies and cultural frames that are very anti black at 310 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: the time. And so in the sixties, this is really 311 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 3: creating a recipe for potential disaster because the populations are rising. 312 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: That are very conflictual. 313 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 3: But what the Department of Corrections does, and in particular 314 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 3: officers white officers at the time, begin to see the 315 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: white incarcerated population, especially the self identified white supremacist population, 316 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: as allies, as allies in a similar fight. And we 317 00:21:54,280 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 3: see this with the increase in different actions such as 318 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 3: setups of black militant prisoners where in a setup meaning 319 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 3: officers turning a blind eye and in particular areas of 320 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: the prison where black militants could be beaten up or 321 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: fatally injured of there being correctional officers actually arming right 322 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 3: supremacist prisoners. So that's something that I have also found 323 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 3: in my data. And when I say arming, like giving 324 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: actual street knives versus black militants would have like little 325 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 3: shanks that they made. So this starts increasing in the sixties. 326 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 3: The Arean Brotherhood formally organizes themselves actually in sixty four, 327 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 3: which I argue they wouldn't have been able to organize 328 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 3: themselves in that fashion if they did not have backing. 329 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: But they are able to organize in nineteen sixty four, 330 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: And in nineteen sixty five we have the Watts riots 331 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles that also impacts the climate in California prisons. 332 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 3: You see in the archival data hampering down more and 333 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: more ideas unification tracking, shifting off, shipping off to the 334 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 3: Adjustment Center for black incarcerated people suspected. So they start 335 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: casting a wider net after the Watts riots because they 336 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 3: are sharing information with local police departments, and there's this 337 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 3: whole information share of how doc should handle their population 338 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: given what's going on on the outside. So all of 339 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: this is coalescing until oh and then in nineteen sixty seven, right, 340 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 3: we have one hundred and fifty nine race riots in 341 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 3: the US, and FBI initiates actually Cointail Pro. 342 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: Black Hate, which is a specific. 343 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 3: Subprogram of Cointail Pro to hamper down on the Black 344 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: freedom movement. And from my archival sources and interviews I 345 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 3: have in nineteen sixty eight, the Area and Brotherhood kind 346 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: of shifting into a more formal alliance with the Mexican 347 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 3: mafia as a way to be bigger and have more 348 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 3: political control against the black population. In nineteen sixty eight, 349 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 3: also new Estra Familia begins to establish itself and it 350 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 3: aligns with black militant so it really divides the Chicano 351 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: or Mexican descended population. And then you have a series 352 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 3: of assassinations that happen in the late sixties. So Bunchie 353 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: Carter and John Higgins are assassinated at UCLA in nineteen 354 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 3: sixty nine, in January. In December in nineteen sixty nine, 355 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 3: you have Fred Hampton is assassinated in Chicago. You also 356 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 3: have a few days later the shootout, the famous shootout 357 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 3: of forty first in Central between the LAPD and the 358 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: Black Panther Party. And during all of those happenings, right, 359 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 3: what's key is how they're informing each other. Because when 360 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 3: you have the different incidents on the outside, it creates 361 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 3: a hampering down of doc the incarcerated population, and then 362 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: resistance to it. So there's constantly this repression and resistance 363 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 3: that's happening on the inside and the outside at the 364 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 3: same time. And then in the late sixties, you have 365 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: many people who would come to found the Black Gorilla Family, 366 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: which becomes sort of a coalition of different black militant 367 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 3: clicks into one united front to really take on Doc 368 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 3: and to take on the Arian brotherhood. That happens from 369 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: my data in nineteen seventy, but just before that, you 370 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 3: have a series of final incidents that are key. So 371 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 3: several people who would end up founding the Black Gorilla 372 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 3: Family in San Quentin. They are transferred into San Quentin 373 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: at the same time, right before the Solidad incident that 374 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 3: happens in January nineteen seventy or just after it. So 375 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: after Officer Opie Miller is acquitted for the Solidad incident, 376 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 3: he's acquitted January sixteenth, nineteen seventy, there is a killing 377 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 3: that happens in Solidad of an officer and the killing 378 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: is essentially pinned on those who were early members and 379 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 3: founders of who would be early members and founders of 380 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 3: the Black Gorilla Family, and they are named the Soladad Brothers, right, 381 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 3: and they're charged for killing Officer Mills, which is a 382 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: different officer, and they're charge February fourteenth, nineteen seventy. At 383 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: this time, also some of the most famous people who 384 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 3: are involved during this era. Hugo Panels transferred to San Quentin. 385 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 3: George Jackson, one of the Solodad brothers, transferred to San Quentin, 386 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 3: and so you have this sort of transfer of people 387 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 3: who end up leading the early Black Gorilla Family established 388 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 3: in San Quentin. As I noted earlier, the Arian Brotherhoods 389 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 3: established in San Quentin only a few years prior. And 390 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 3: then we have some famous incidents that happened in August 391 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy so the Marion Courthouse incident, we have 392 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 3: the manhunt for Angela Davis. Right, there's a series of 393 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 3: incidents that happened in the early seventies on the outside 394 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 3: that kind of culminate with what happens in August twenty first, 395 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, when the Black Gorilla Family attempts to 396 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 3: free George Jackson. And from the research that I've done, 397 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 3: so the interviews that I've done, and just to give 398 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 3: some contacts, I did interviews with early members and founders 399 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 3: of the Black Gorilla Family. I did interviews with associates 400 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 3: of Aryan groups, associates of Soriano, which is considered southern 401 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 3: Mexican and California prisons and Nirtagno groups, which is considered northern. 402 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 3: It's like the divide. And then I did interviews with 403 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 3: a political activists from the sixties and seventies who were 404 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 3: connected to those groups, intimately connected and also new key 405 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 3: people who are now deceased during that time period, and 406 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 3: also people who actually worked on the solid Ad defense. 407 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 3: So from my research, I would stand by the claim 408 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 3: that on the twenty first of August in nineteen seventy one, 409 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 3: after these series of events, I had described the black 410 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 3: role of family attempts to free George Jackson because there 411 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: was a credible, planned attack on his life and it 412 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: was a coordinated attack between members of the Area and 413 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 3: Brotherhood and correctional officers, which I elaborate way more on 414 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 3: in the book because I have way more space to 415 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 3: be able to elaborate on why I say that and 416 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: why how I can make that claim. But when that happens, 417 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: we know from the story right that George Jackson is 418 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 3: is shot, he's murdered by correction officers, and there's a 419 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 3: series of uprising so Attica being the most famous, that 420 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 3: happens in shortly after he is killed, and we know 421 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 3: what happens at Attica with the repression from Governor Rockefeller 422 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 3: and doc there. 423 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: The Attica Prison Rebellion took place in September of nineteen 424 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: seventy one. Prisoners protesting for better living conditions and political 425 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: rights took control of Attica State Prison in upstate New York. 426 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: After four days of negotiations, Governor Nelson Rockefeller sent in 427 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: armed corrections officers and state and local police. Forty three 428 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: men were killed, thirty three inmates and ten guards. All 429 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: but one guard and three inmates were killed by law 430 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: enforcement gunfire. 431 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 3: So that's what I mean when I say there's that 432 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: time period. There's this culmination of of contentious events that 433 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 3: are really incidents of state violence against movements, and this 434 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 3: cycle of repression and resistance that is creating a backdrop 435 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 3: for the events that begin to take place in the 436 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 3: mid seventies. 437 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm just kind of interested in this whole dynamic between 438 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: what's going on in prison and then what's going on 439 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: outside of prison, and then the authenticity of having been 440 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: a prisoner just seems super super important to a lot 441 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: of people, you know, sort of radical people. That gives 442 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: you some kind of gravitas or some kind of charisma. 443 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: I mean, the first thing I can speak to is 444 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 3: that so when political activists talk about prison, right, prison 445 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 3: is seen as being in the belly of the beast. 446 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 3: That's like a direct quote. So when you think about 447 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: how people who were incarcerated, who were political prisoners when 448 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: they come out, and I say political prisoners meaning the 449 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: different type of tactics that I described earlier that I 450 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 3: have dated back to the early fifties, right, those specific 451 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 3: targeting tactics that were not used against the neo Nazis 452 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 3: in prison. So to make that point very clear, that 453 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 3: is another reason why we can use this designation of 454 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,479 Speaker 3: political prisoners, because it's a very clear targeting of certain 455 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 3: types of political groups and a very clear pass given 456 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 3: to other groups that are seen as useful and as 457 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 3: useful allies in the same fight. And so to survive 458 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 3: that is considered a badge when someone gets out, because 459 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 3: you have survived what it would be considered to be 460 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 3: the worst of the worst, because you've survived what people 461 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 3: know happens in society. Right, So we know that in 462 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 3: society for over a century, we've had connections between law 463 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 3: enforcement and the ku Klux Klan, often one and the 464 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 3: same right across the country and people being that being 465 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 3: a joint alliance to eradicate freedom movements and people you 466 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 3: know have survived that. I think with political prisoners, when 467 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 3: they come out, people are thinking that someone was able 468 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: to survive that and generate knowledge from that while being 469 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: behind the cage. It's like imagine having the ku Klux 470 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 3: plan and officers working together. When you're in a cage. 471 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: It's like a it's a complete nightmare. So I think 472 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 3: that is why in part, prison is really seen as 473 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 3: a legitimacy to how much someone has survived and in 474 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: turn being committed to a larger movement. I think because 475 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 3: there are there's tangible things that they have had to overcome. 476 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: It's not like imagined, right, It's like a material They 477 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 3: had to overcome material conditions. So I think that's why 478 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 3: to those especially to those who haven't experienced it, right, 479 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of, you know, people who might be coming 480 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 3: from a white middle class or white upper middle class background, 481 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: who might you know, have an affinity for certain political ideals, 482 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: but they've never put them in practice, they've never survived 483 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: them in practice. 484 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: They've just read them in a book. 485 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 3: They're not embodied, And I think having a close connection 486 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 3: with someone where it is embodied in their third way 487 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 3: they live, the way they've survived, the way they talk. 488 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 3: It is there is a charisma to that that draws 489 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 3: people in. 490 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: What would you see as being sort of the sort 491 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: of touchstones during that particular period, both if you're within prison, 492 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: but also if you're outside and are sort of politically 493 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: aware enough to be paying attention to what's going on inside. 494 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I would even take it back to in 495 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, right after George Jackson is killed, we 496 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 3: have Attica, shortly after which everyone from being inside and 497 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: outside saw and witnessed it happened. September ninth, nineteen seventy one, 498 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: we have the Attica uprising, and then we have the 499 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 3: brutal squashing, and then and then we have the cover 500 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 3: up that ensues over the years over the truth about 501 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 3: the fact that it was the state that committed the 502 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 3: murders of people. We have the next year in nineteen 503 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 3: seventy two, June fourth, actually Angela Davis becomes acquitted after 504 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 3: the manhunt that began after the Marion County Courthouse incident. 505 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 3: So all the way back in nineteen seventy right we 506 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 3: have the FBI initiates this man hunt. She's acquitted in 507 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, which becomes a huge win, right for 508 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 3: these movements in nineteen seventy to create it's a real 509 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 3: synergy about what's possible. Because she's acquitted, no one thinks 510 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 3: she's going to be equitted, but then we have not 511 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 3: too later, Just about a month later, Geronimo Pratt, a 512 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 3: leader and the Panthers, is wrongfully convicted in nineteen seventy two, 513 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 3: and after that within the prisons, we start to see 514 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 3: a big ramping up of violence because we know we 515 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 3: have the win with Angela Davis acquitted, but then Geronimo 516 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 3: Pratt is wrongfully convicted the same year, and then a 517 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 3: couple of years later we have a really strong cracking 518 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 3: down against the black freedom movement. And so what I 519 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 3: mean by that is, in nineteen seventy four, we have 520 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 3: the Aryan Brotherhood actually declares formal war on the Black 521 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 3: Rolla Family in tandem with the Mexican Mafia, which is 522 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 3: it's incredibly consequential because in nineteen seventy four, the black 523 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 3: girl of the family is still recovering from the fact 524 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 3: that George Jackson is killed in seventy one who's a founder, 525 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 3: and many of the leaders and early members are locked 526 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 3: up in adjustment centers, which really decimates a lot of 527 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 3: their leadership. And so when that war ensues, it's incredibly 528 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 3: devastating for the unity of the Black Freedom movement within 529 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 3: Californfornia prisons, what they were trying to build. It's significant 530 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 3: because it's sort of this is within the prisons when 531 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 3: you have this war going on between these different groups 532 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 3: beginning in nineteen seventy four that lasts for years. 533 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 2: It's a long term. 534 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 3: I don't want to say long term beef because that 535 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 3: doesn't even capture the nature of it. But there's a 536 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 3: long term cyclical war with the Aryan Brotherhood really dominating. 537 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 3: There's a lot of reasons that I've outlined as to 538 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 3: why they would be dominating. But it creates a feeling 539 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 3: of not just lost, but like kind of can we 540 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 3: can we win? Like can we overcome this? Because at 541 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 3: that time you also have as I noted, many of 542 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 3: the leaders of and early members of the Black Gorilla 543 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 3: Family are in adjustment centers. They're also uh fighting on trial. 544 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 3: You have you have a series of things that kind 545 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 3: of are feeling insurmountable, and I think that that being 546 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 3: the setting that's happening in prison, there's also a sentiment 547 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 3: on the outside of feeling like we're not getting enough wins. 548 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: You mentioned the term political genocide earlier. I was wondering 549 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: if you could's expand on that a little bit. 550 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 3: So the reason I that that term came to mind 551 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: as I was speaking. I have never used it before, 552 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 3: but as yeah, as I was talking, it came to 553 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 3: mind because I mean, I speak about it in that way, 554 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 3: but I don't use the word genocide until just now. 555 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 3: Genocide is fitting because it is a systematic, coordinated effort 556 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 3: at multiple levels of law enforcement on the outside of 557 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 3: prisons and within prisons, in tandem with white supremacist civilian 558 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 3: allies to eradicate political ideologies, particularly black political ideologies for freedom, 559 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 3: that are deemed as threatening to an overarching US racial 560 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 3: capitalist agenda. And that is why political genocide would be fitting. 561 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 3: It is a targeting. In the data that we have 562 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 3: on this from other scholars and their brilliant historiography from 563 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 3: my current work and previous work, the data shows that 564 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 3: it is not an imagined genocide is not it is 565 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 3: it is systematic, it is coordinated, and especially I think 566 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 3: for me, one of the biggest pieces of evidence is 567 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 3: when you compare the treatment of other groups like white 568 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 3: supremacist sex, it's radically different. It's very much like what 569 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 3: we're talking about in our current conversations in society, such 570 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 3: as the police response to Black Lives Matter protests versus 571 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 3: the police response to January sixth. It's as soon as 572 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 3: I saw that, I was like, Oh, that's my research, 573 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 3: that's my research in prisons. It's exactly what That's exactly 574 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 3: what I would predict because it is a pattern. It's 575 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 3: a historical pattern rooted in how our society is organized. 576 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 3: It's not a coincidence. 577 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: So what haven't I asked you? Or what do you 578 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: think it's important for the audience to know? 579 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 3: I think it was that last point, that last point 580 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 3: about connecting history to the present. I think what I 581 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 3: would want the audience to know is that just because 582 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 3: something is historical doesn't mean that it's irrelevant, and it 583 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that it's not currently ongoing. It simply means 584 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 3: that we've dated it to a past. But it's simply 585 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 3: that we are creating the past context so that you 586 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 3: can better understand how it has evolved, how it has morphed, 587 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 3: how it has spread in the present time, so that 588 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 3: it is recognizable. So I would want the audience to 589 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 3: be able to understand and look around in our current 590 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 3: society and notice, where have we seen this before? Where 591 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 3: did it never end? 592 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: Thank you to Brittany Friedman, Assistant Professor of sociology at 593 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: the University of Southern California. She is the author of 594 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: Carcoro Apartheid, how Lies and Why Supremacists Run Our Prisons. 595 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm Toby Ball. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 596 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 597 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: favorite show. For more information on Rip Current, visit the 598 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: show website at ripcurrentpod dot com.