WEBVTT - Strong Like Iron: Sophie Lyons 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:02.720 Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.680 Hi, Zarens, Elizabeth, How you been? 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:06.640 I'm all right, How are you? 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:08.000 I'm pretty good? 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:12.120 Good. I listen here, pal. Yeah, you know it's ridiculous. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.680 Oh do I So you know it's about to be 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.040 the fourth of July. Yes, and you know what that 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.279 reminds me of? Of course, one of America's greatest inventions. 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:20.840 Tom Cruise. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:21.440 Hot dogs. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:22.599 Oh, hot dogs. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.200 You know my love of encased meats. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:24.720 Yeah. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:26.279 So I looked up a couple things, and I was 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:28.200 just curious about my love and I wanted to know 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:29.760 more about it. So I was like, how much do 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:31.320 we eat a year in hot dogs? 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:31.639 Yeah? 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.080 If you had to guess how many hot dogs Americans 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.519 eat in any given year, or just say last year, 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:38.599 how many do you think that would be? 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:43.239 I have no idea because I feel like it's probably declining. No, oh, 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.680 it's increasing. People are eating more and more hot dogs. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.440 There's more and more people. That's one thing. But also 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.440 it is it's a lot, all right to take a 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:52.199 stab in the dark. 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.480 Nine hundred billion, Okay, well that's too many. 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.920 Twenty billion, twenty billion with a bee, yes. 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.520 And they are about three and forty nine million Americans, 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.480 So that works out. I did the math. Yeah, fifty 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.920 seven hot dogs a year for every single American man, woman, 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:09.280 and shop. 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:10.760 Well, how many hot dogs do you think you had 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:16.119 last year? Seventy seventy probably, I think it probably had 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:17.119 like three four. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:18.800 I had a lot of hot dogs I try. 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:21.240 I used to eat it. 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.560 I used to eat like like a lot, and now 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:25.920 started worrying about like the night rates. And then I 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.840 switched over to Hebrew National, which is just meat and water, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.200 which is why it's the best. Like even the Costco 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.680 hot dogs, say the Kirkland brand that everyone. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:34.760 Loves, that's one of the ones. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:36.520 It's one of considered one of the best hot dogs. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.600 But they have a lot of the sodiums, and I 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.280 don't want all the sodiums. So that's why Hebrew nationals 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.199 just meat and water. It's amazing, right. 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.360 I had one at the Farmer's market a couple months ago. 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:48.960 Yeah, but on average, and so since you have three 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.480 and I have only seventy, that means we're not covering 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.680 the average. Now other people eating far more hot dogs 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.400 and make up these numbers. Oh yeah, it's crazy. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:01:59.880 Because like a couple of hot dogs a week. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.120 Yes, yeah, about one a week. If you have fifty 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.720 seven to fifty two weeks a year, at least one 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.920 hot dog a week every week of the year. Now, 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.399 if you were to guess the top hot dog consuming 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.840 cities of twenty twenty five, what do you think the 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:14.640 number one is? 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.200 Well, I feel like it's going to throw us off 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.960 because remember I talked about the Sonoran hot dogs. Is 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:20.960 it like Los Angeles? 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.600 Yes, look at you, yeah, La. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.400 And then number two is New York, the number three 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:31.000 in Chicago. Then you get Dallas, Houston, Tampa, Fort Myers, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia. Now, 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.760 if you were like, you know, going, hey, what hey, 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:42.120 what international airport in America consumes the most hot dogs, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.040 it would be Chicago's. 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:47.480 O Hair Yeah yeah, these people six. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.359 Times more hot dogs. And say in lax So it's 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.280 the people of LA. The tourists in LA. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:54.960 Do they have hot dogs in LX? 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.960 I don't know. I mean, I just I'm just giving 0:02:57.960 --> 0:02:58.400 you numbers. 0:02:58.360 --> 0:02:58.919 Always a bit. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:00.320 I got you. I got you on. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.200 Fourth of July, which is coming up, So get your 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.799 hot dogs. People. Americans will consume about one hundred and 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.320 fifty million hot dogs and that is enough. Hot dogs. 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:10.840 If you put them end to end, you could get 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.760 from LA to DC. So really connects the nation. 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:15.919 That's beautiful for America's. 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.960 Oh I'm sorry, I read that wrong. Not just once 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.000 five times. We could go back and forth five times 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.560 in hot dogs. So there you go. 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:27.560 Now I want a hot dog. 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:29.440 I know in case meets who doesn't want one? 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:31.640 They're amazing top dog in Berkeley. 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.200 That's a good as. 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.920 The best I think aside from Costco. Do you want 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.240 to know what else is ridiculous? Because that is ridiculous? 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.280 Thank you, and it was. It was the theme to 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:42.080 celebrate America. 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.480 It's a grand old flag, high flying, flat high hot dog. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:49.440 What else is ridiculous? 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.080 Wilding out in court? 0:03:52.960 --> 0:04:18.080 Oh, this is ridiculous Crime A podcast about absurd and 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:23.560 outrageous capers, heists and cons It's always ninety nine percent 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.320 murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous. 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:27.680 Damn right, yep. 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:33.440 It is interesting how crime changes over time, like mainly 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.560 with evolving technology. So like when the telegraph came on 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.000 the scene, that opened into a whole new world of 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:40.799 cons and scam. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:41.960 Of course, yeah, it's good call. 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.680 Same with the telephone, and then computers and then like 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:49.200 crypto and whatnot. But there are some core elements that 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:54.480 never change. So like the sneakiness, the cunning wigs with wigs, 0:04:54.839 --> 0:05:00.919 thermal lances, powerful jazz, protection, misinformation, and then like complete 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.279 confidence that wins marks over even in the face of 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:09.760 ridiculous claims and circumstances. That never changes. So while sometimes 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.279 I think that confidence crimes and petty crimes were easier 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.880 back before the digital age, I think they were just different. 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.920 Oh yeah, have you seen some how boomers are online? 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.160 I mean, that's not a difficult group to god like. 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.960 I prefer analog to digital, and I think a lot 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.480 of times I hear about these modern day tech crimes 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.719 and I just don't understand what people are talking about. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.520 So I just disregard it. But let's go back in 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:38.680 time and let's learn about an audacious analog lady crimer. 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:40.960 Oh I love analog lady crimers. Good. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.159 So the gal I want to tell you about today 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.680 has popped up on a couple of episodes before really 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.560 in passing. I think she deserves her own time, to 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:51.599 her own space. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:53.360 I like it. Let's give her the stage. 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.640 You're talking about, Sophie Lions. I don't remember that name, 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.160 no no, okay okay. So Sophie Lions is how she's 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.599 known in the albeit hazy historical record, but she went 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:05.479 by a lot of names. 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:07.280 Here's a very long. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:15.120 List too, Louisa Andres. These are all great aliases. If anyone, oh, yeah, 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:15.679 I have a couple. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.839 You can't use an alias anymore when you check into hotel. 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.200 That used to be the best I know, right, Missus 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:28.400 f H Brodie, Ela Drama, El Dramas, Sophie de Varney 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:35.240 Rose Divine, that's nice, Sarah English, Julia Kelso, Sophie Levy, 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.520 Susan Lockwood, Katie Laurane. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.240 Lockwood sounds like she's going to be nominated for a 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:42.280 Daytime any I. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.680 Was thinking that sounds like yeah, And whether that's the 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:50.799 character or the act, I don't know. Kate Lrangey, Kate Loranger, 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:58.320 Sophie Lorenz Close, Kate Lucas, s E Lucas, Sarah Lyons Lucas. 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:00.640 I think I bought her book is a. 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:09.760 Professor, Sophie Monarchy, Fanny Owings Owen, Sarah Richardson, Harriet Smith, 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:17.280 Jane Smith, Sarah Smith, Luisa, Sylvan, Mary Walton, Catherine Williams, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:18.560 and Kate Wilson. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.120 Kate Wilson sounds like a British folk singer, Kate Wilson. 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.600 Kate, Well, she can go like for the generic name 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.480 and then she has some that are out there. Most 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.040 of what we know about Sophie comes from either her 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:35.480 nineteen thirteen autobiography or an eighteen eighty six article about 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:39.160 her by Thomas Burns. And so, like the best narrators, 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.720 she was unreliable and I love. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:43.760 The chaos of that. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.480 I love it. It drives Marissa the researcher nuts. She 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.200 can't stand it. She always has these caveats for me, 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:55.360 and I'm like, no, this is that means it's good. Yeah, 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.600 you're into story stories and Sarah not a storytime. So 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.120 let's get to the start. Sophie Elkin was born on 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.640 Christmas Eve in eighteen forty seven. Now, sometimes she'd tell 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.320 people that it was in New York City, sometimes England, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:15.320 but she was likely born in Bavaria. She came from 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.960 a family of criminals and they taught her the trade early, 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:25.760 like mostly pickpocketing and shoplifting, street crime, criming one O one. 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:27.480 So she came to the US. 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:29.360 So not like doing like three card MONI they're not 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.160 doing a circus crime. She's like cut purse stuff. 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.760 She came to the US when she was eight, and 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.079 her parents had already come over, and she and her 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.960 siblings were joining them, and the family then settled in 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.160 Little Germany in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Her dad was 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:48.840 a burglar and a fence and pretty soon her mom 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:50.880 was out of the picture. Your guess is as good 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.320 as mine as to what happened there. But a criminal 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:58.160 step mom arrived on the scene and continued Sophie's training is. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.079 That like an aberranth of thee. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.360 Here's what she so for yourself said quote, I was 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.480 very happy because I was petted and rewarded. My wretched 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.640 stepmother patted my curly head, gave me a bag of 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.440 candy and said I was a good girl. And that 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.840 was when she produced. When she actually brought goods home. 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.560 When she didn't come home with enough loot, she was 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.080 physically punished. She wrote quote, I was taught how to 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.640 open shopping bags, feel out the loose money or the pocketbook, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.400 and get it into my little hands without attracting the 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.080 attention of my victims. I was provided with a very 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.760 sharp little knife, and I was carefully instructed how to 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.800 slit open women's shopping bags, which are generally made of 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.160 knitted cloth, so that I could get my fingers in. 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.320 So this is just a little girl. So she and 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:50.479 her stepmom they would hit department stores, public transportation museums, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.079 like anywhere it's crowded and people can get jostled. 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:54.440 To do what she's trying to do. You gotta have 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.320 a really sharp knife. Yes, you know, I mean to 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:56.760 cut fat. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.720 I would have already cut my hands a million times, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.640 I believe, all over people. So she the first time 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.120 she was arrested was in eighteen fifty nine, and so 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.439 she was born eighteen forty seven, so she's twelve. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.440 Oh yeah, that's about right though. 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.600 Yeah. According to Barbara Gray's City University of New York 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.280 graduate thesis entitled Queen of the Underworld, The Biography of 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.120 Sophie Lyons, quote, one day in eighteen fifty nine, a 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.960 patrolman named Sergeant Jordan decided to investigate the increase in 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:32.440 complaints of pickpocketing at Barnum's American Museum on Anna Street 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.920 and Broadway, the eighteen year old museum that was created 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:40.600 by entrepreneur and master of Humbug Phineas T. Barnum. Barnum 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.560 fleeced the attendees on the way into the museum, and 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.400 pickpockets fleeced them on the way out. Sergeant Jordan arrested 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.800 twelve year old Sophie and her partner, a twelve year 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.360 old nuxman named Tommy Stax. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:54.480 What a knocksman is. 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:56.760 A term for a pickpocket From that day, I had to. 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:57.760 Look that aut interesting. 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.280 And by the way, I think you just gave me 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.000 a new alias, Phineas T. Burnett. I'm going to use that. 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:06.040 I thought you were going to say Tommy Stacks. Name 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:11.599 Tommy Stacks, So twelve year old Tommy Stacks is a 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.280 tough name. So that bus landed her in the House 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.240 of Refuge was a prison for young offenders on Randall's 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.640 Island in the East River. According to Barbara Gray, quote, 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.640 children at the House of Refuge were classified from one 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:31.199 to four. Class four children were quote vicious, bad, or wicked, 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.680 and they were accorded to fewest privileges. Sophie was a 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.520 Class three, which meant that officials believed that she was 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.720 immoral in her conduct, but not yet irredeemable. Her records 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.840 mentioned that rumors say that the mother lived off the 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.680 depredations of her children on the public. This we know 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.520 nothing of, but there seems something mysterious in the case. 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.360 The child is very quick, nervous, and precocious and needs 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.880 training in a steady way. So yes, as you can 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.320 probably guess she ever went to school, there was zero 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.640 TI imagining that she went to her stepmom school of 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:06.880 criminal enterprise. 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.640 She may know her letters, you know, like I'm imagining 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:11.160 that maybe maybe. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.720 She didn't get reading or writing skills until she was 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:15.080 an adult twenty five years old. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:16.600 Oh I take it back, Yeah, I mean she. 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.119 Could probably like identify letters or whatever. 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.960 But people's shape, read notes and music. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.080 Yeah, so back in her teen years, when she was fifteen, 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.760 she got married. Oh yeah, Morris Harris was his name. 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.720 He was a shoemaker and a pickpocket. His hustle culture 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.760 like a side gig we all have. So that marriage 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.960 didn't last if you can believe it. I mean, I'll 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.960 give you a second to cut wrecordest Around this time, 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.880 her dad opened up a clothing store and then he 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.040 ran this fence business out of there, so it was 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.600 more hot goods clearing house than house of high fashion. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:53.720 Sophie was working at the time for one of the 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:58.880 greatest fences of them all, none other than Fredrika marm Mandelbam. 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.120 Oh yeah, so Sophie was her star pupil. She was 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.319 part of an elite squad of dedicated confidence women who 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.520 steal cash and jewels while stealing hearts. These are their stories. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.440 You know how music producers hire young folks to be 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:18.360 in a band like the Monkeys Menudo, This was like that, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.040 so mar mandelbomb. She put together a crew that included 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.199 a well known pickpocket, Kate Gorman, and then her future husband, 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:31.559 an accomplished bank robber named John red Leary. And then 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.560 another fella in the mix was a quote dashing bank 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:40.160 burglar named Edward ned Lyons. Sophie found a partner both 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:41.200 in life and crime. 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.920 Both of them did apparently prepare. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.360 Matchmaking thing double dating. And so she's eighteen at this point, 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:55.520 now entering into her second marriage. Criminal two of four 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.400 in her matrimonial record. So a little about ned ned 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.760 was about a decade older than Sophie eight or so. Yeah, 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.880 and he was born in England to a very law 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.440 abiding family. And that's probably where Sophie borrowed the occasional 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.800 phony origin story, I got you. So he arrived in 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.920 the States in eighteen fifty, and he immediately started breaking 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.560 the law. According to the New York Times quote, Lions 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.960 was big and strong and handsome and had a heavy 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.480 red mustache. When he met Sophie soon after the Civil War, 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.760 he'd been doing big jobs for several years. She helped 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:30.920 him do bigger. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.080 And how did he avoid the Civil War? 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.840 Well, you'll find out, you know, I know that you 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.440 just can't resist a heavy red mustache. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.000 Tucker for a man, especially if it's red like you 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.120 could see it from across the. 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.440 Road a yell. Ned. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.200 He got his criminal start as a bounty jumper in 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.680 the Civil War. Is at the time you could pay 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.840 your way out of service in the Union or even Confederate. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.000 Army outside, especially the confederatescy. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.880 Yeah, And when the government would turn around and offer 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.320 that money as a sort of signing bonus to new 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:06.560 draftees a bounty to serve, so Ned would enlist, get 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.160 the cash, and then dessert. And he did this sometimes 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.000 as often as eighteen times a month, eighteen times in 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:14.840 a month. 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.080 Finding enough draft boards to go to or whatever organization 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:19.720 you would touch you If he's going. 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.920 I see that big red mustache come in. And so, 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.760 according to the blog Professional Criminals of America revised quote, 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.120 at the beginning of the war, he was a young man, handsome, daring, 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.240 and athletic, and he turned his talents to robbing drunken 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.960 soldiers until the game became risky, and then he became 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.720 a full fledged bounty jumper. So you know, he's stealing 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.320 the bounty out of soldiers pockets. He's like, why don't 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:45.040 I cut out the middle. 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:47.000 He's not easily identifiable. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.000 So then he fell in with this guy Jimmy Hope 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.160 and his son Johnny. Jimmy Hope, Jimmy Hope. 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.200 And Johnny Hope, the Hope. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.880 So Jimmy was a mentor, and then Ned and Johnny 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.560 would like run jobs together. They robbed the Philadelphia Navy 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.160 Yard in eighteen seventy, which was like understandably a big deal. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.480 That was a year after they had robbed the Ocean 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.040 Bank in New York. And I've talked about that one before. 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.680 They rented the basement next door. They got to tunneling 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.560 in and out. They went for a week secreting. 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.400 Away money, valuables. 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.680 And like some of it was just too much to carry, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.080 like all these bags of gold, but it netted them 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.440 a ton of money. Marm was involved in this. 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.960 We's got too much gold, so it's just simply. 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.960 Too much gold. Are you tired of having so much gold? 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.320 After this? Ned was like, you know, I think how 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.800 I want to go straight? So like he and Sophie 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.840 had a kid. He bought them a farm on Long Island, 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.080 Family Way, Yeah, and he wanted to live a quiet life. 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.360 Sophie was not about that. She wanted she'd go out 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.239 and she would steal stuff, just for kicks, not survival, 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.200 and then she'd like, palm a bunch of gold watches, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.200 come home, hand them to Ned and just like laugh 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:58.080 herself silly. And he was not amused. So he wanted 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.520 like a trad wife. We would say out and Sophie 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.040 was anything but And like he's like, look, I have 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.920 all these wonderful things for you. You could be making a home. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.720 You're not allowed to go out and steal, he tells her, 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.680 and she's like, oh, yeah, totally, And then she would 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:16.000 go sneak out and steal. According to New York Times, 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.800 way back when the house quote had everything a woman 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.600 could want. He imagined that mother love would keep Sophie quiet. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.119 It did for six months. Then she put little George 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.000 out to nurse and came back to New York and 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.520 was caught and sent to Blackwell's Island. Little George also 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.240 went his way. He was sent to prison twice before 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.680 he was full grown, and he died in prison, cut 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.560 off in his prime. Said his mother. Oh so yeah, 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.679 like she's you know kid, Yeah, so crime is in 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.879 her blood. She passes it along to her kid. She 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:48.560 couldn't help it. But I don't think it was like 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.840 a compulsion. I think it's just all she knew. I'd 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:52.840 never gone to school. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:53.680 Well she could teach. 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.240 Yeah, and everyone around her had done the same growing up. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:58.320 And it's fun. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.640 Well, and don't forget it's super fun. And Ned came 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.360 from a straight arrow family, so he wasn't raised that way, 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:05.800 so the farm life felt. 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:06.760 Normal to him. 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.520 Yeah, but it was like completely foreign to Sophie, and 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:11.720 so she bucked against it. 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.600 So he was more of an opportunist and she was 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.879 more of like, you know, this is what we do. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:17.480 Yeah, and he was like going through a phase. 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.840 Yea, yeah, let's. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.440 Stop here for some good old fashioned ads. Yum is 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.199 what I say, young coming, I love commerce. When we 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.480 come back, we're going to dive into the particulars of 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:56.240 Sophie's next phase of criminal conduct. Zaren Sophie Lions we're 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.520 talking about here today. She got her start as a pickpocket, 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.240 got in with a notorious scam crew, married a member 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.320 of the crew, moved to the suburbs. Couldn't give up 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.080 the life, so she went back to Manhattan and back 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.720 to her con games. She called herself Queen of the Underworld. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:14.960 She gave herself that name. 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:16.879 So it's a little tough for me. I mean, I 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.040 can't speak you know it. 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:21.240 But you're working for marm Mamblebomb. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.640 You're not underwear unless she's the empress, you know, right. 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.480 But she sort of lived up to the moniker she had. Really, 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.320 she had all these like super innovative for the time 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.760 schemes and hets. So like a good con artist, she 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.840 dressed the part. And when she was like swindling or 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.080 scamming the rich, you know, you got to dress like 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:39.760 you're one of them. 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.440 That part of the con right. 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:46.600 She wore these expensive gorgeous dresses, silk, you know, lace, satin, 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.959 and then when she cozied up to the swells. They're like, oh, 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.760 you're one of us. You know, she's at the same 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.000 expensive restaurant or the ombre that sort of thing. And 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.280 we see that with like modern day con artists and 0:19:58.400 --> 0:19:59.960 a Delvey as an example that. 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.480 It's basically presumed innocence by association. 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.680 Yes, yes, if you're here, you want to be exactly. 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.720 There's this magazine Our Detroit, not oh you are Detroit, 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:14.280 but h oh you are anyway, they wrote, quote, she 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.680 was a consummate actress, could be demure when it best 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.960 fitted the circumstances, or she could assume the grand and 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.320 lofty manner. She could weep or smile as she chose, 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:30.480 So she's chowfolk. This manipulation extended to her court appearances. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:31.400 Oh I bet. 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.199 Back to our Detroit quote. As a young woman, she 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.760 was the first to employ the kleptomaniac defense, getting a 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.000