Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hi, Zarens, Elizabeth, How you been?
Speaker 3: I'm all right, How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm pretty good?
Speaker 3: Good. I listen here, pal. Yeah, you know it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Oh do I So you know it's about to be
Speaker 2: the fourth of July. Yes, and you know what that
Speaker 2: reminds me of? Of course, one of America's greatest inventions.
Speaker 3: Tom Cruise.
Speaker 2: Hot dogs.
Speaker 3: Oh, hot dogs.
Speaker 2: You know my love of encased meats.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I looked up a couple things, and I was
Speaker 2: just curious about my love and I wanted to know
Speaker 2: more about it. So I was like, how much do
Speaker 2: we eat a year in hot dogs?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: If you had to guess how many hot dogs Americans
Speaker 2: eat in any given year, or just say last year,
Speaker 2: how many do you think that would be?
Speaker 3: I have no idea because I feel like it's probably declining. No, oh,
Speaker 3: it's increasing. People are eating more and more hot dogs.
Speaker 2: There's more and more people. That's one thing. But also
Speaker 2: it is it's a lot, all right to take a
Speaker 2: stab in the dark.
Speaker 3: Nine hundred billion, Okay, well that's too many.
Speaker 4: Twenty billion, twenty billion with a bee, yes.
Speaker 2: And they are about three and forty nine million Americans,
Speaker 2: So that works out. I did the math. Yeah, fifty
Speaker 2: seven hot dogs a year for every single American man, woman,
Speaker 2: and shop.
Speaker 3: Well, how many hot dogs do you think you had
Speaker 3: last year? Seventy seventy probably, I think it probably had
Speaker 3: like three four.
Speaker 2: I had a lot of hot dogs I try.
Speaker 3: I used to eat it.
Speaker 2: I used to eat like like a lot, and now
Speaker 2: started worrying about like the night rates. And then I
Speaker 2: switched over to Hebrew National, which is just meat and water,
Speaker 2: which is why it's the best. Like even the Costco
Speaker 2: hot dogs, say the Kirkland brand that everyone.
Speaker 4: Loves, that's one of the ones.
Speaker 2: It's one of considered one of the best hot dogs.
Speaker 2: But they have a lot of the sodiums, and I
Speaker 2: don't want all the sodiums. So that's why Hebrew nationals
Speaker 2: just meat and water. It's amazing, right.
Speaker 3: I had one at the Farmer's market a couple months ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but on average, and so since you have three
Speaker 2: and I have only seventy, that means we're not covering
Speaker 2: the average. Now other people eating far more hot dogs
Speaker 2: and make up these numbers. Oh yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 4: Because like a couple of hot dogs a week.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, about one a week. If you have fifty
Speaker 2: seven to fifty two weeks a year, at least one
Speaker 2: hot dog a week every week of the year. Now,
Speaker 2: if you were to guess the top hot dog consuming
Speaker 2: cities of twenty twenty five, what do you think the
Speaker 2: number one is?
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like it's going to throw us off
Speaker 3: because remember I talked about the Sonoran hot dogs. Is
Speaker 3: it like Los Angeles?
Speaker 4: Yes, look at you, yeah, La.
Speaker 2: And then number two is New York, the number three
Speaker 2: in Chicago. Then you get Dallas, Houston, Tampa, Fort Myers, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia. Now,
Speaker 2: if you were like, you know, going, hey, what hey,
Speaker 2: what international airport in America consumes the most hot dogs,
Speaker 2: it would be Chicago's.
Speaker 4: O Hair Yeah yeah, these people six.
Speaker 2: Times more hot dogs. And say in lax So it's
Speaker 2: the people of LA. The tourists in LA.
Speaker 3: Do they have hot dogs in LX?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I just I'm just giving
Speaker 2: you numbers.
Speaker 4: Always a bit.
Speaker 3: I got you. I got you on.
Speaker 2: Fourth of July, which is coming up, So get your
Speaker 2: hot dogs. People. Americans will consume about one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty million hot dogs and that is enough. Hot dogs.
Speaker 2: If you put them end to end, you could get
Speaker 2: from LA to DC. So really connects the nation.
Speaker 3: That's beautiful for America's.
Speaker 2: Oh I'm sorry, I read that wrong. Not just once
Speaker 2: five times. We could go back and forth five times
Speaker 2: in hot dogs. So there you go.
Speaker 3: Now I want a hot dog.
Speaker 2: I know in case meets who doesn't want one?
Speaker 3: They're amazing top dog in Berkeley.
Speaker 2: That's a good as.
Speaker 3: The best I think aside from Costco. Do you want
Speaker 3: to know what else is ridiculous? Because that is ridiculous?
Speaker 2: Thank you, and it was. It was the theme to
Speaker 2: celebrate America.
Speaker 3: It's a grand old flag, high flying, flat high hot dog.
Speaker 3: What else is ridiculous?
Speaker 4: Wilding out in court?
Speaker 3: Oh, this is ridiculous Crime A podcast about absurd and
Speaker 3: outrageous capers, heists and cons It's always ninety nine percent
Speaker 3: murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous.
Speaker 4: Damn right, yep.
Speaker 3: It is interesting how crime changes over time, like mainly
Speaker 3: with evolving technology. So like when the telegraph came on
Speaker 3: the scene, that opened into a whole new world of
Speaker 3: cons and scam.
Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, it's good call.
Speaker 3: Same with the telephone, and then computers and then like
Speaker 3: crypto and whatnot. But there are some core elements that
Speaker 3: never change. So like the sneakiness, the cunning wigs with wigs,
Speaker 3: thermal lances, powerful jazz, protection, misinformation, and then like complete
Speaker 3: confidence that wins marks over even in the face of
Speaker 3: ridiculous claims and circumstances. That never changes. So while sometimes
Speaker 3: I think that confidence crimes and petty crimes were easier
Speaker 3: back before the digital age, I think they were just different.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, have you seen some how boomers are online?
Speaker 2: I mean, that's not a difficult group to god like.
Speaker 3: I prefer analog to digital, and I think a lot
Speaker 3: of times I hear about these modern day tech crimes
Speaker 3: and I just don't understand what people are talking about.
Speaker 3: So I just disregard it. But let's go back in
Speaker 3: time and let's learn about an audacious analog lady crimer.
Speaker 2: Oh I love analog lady crimers. Good.
Speaker 3: So the gal I want to tell you about today
Speaker 3: has popped up on a couple of episodes before really
Speaker 3: in passing. I think she deserves her own time, to
Speaker 3: her own space.
Speaker 2: I like it. Let's give her the stage.
Speaker 3: You're talking about, Sophie Lions. I don't remember that name,
Speaker 3: no no, okay okay. So Sophie Lions is how she's
Speaker 3: known in the albeit hazy historical record, but she went
Speaker 3: by a lot of names.
Speaker 4: Here's a very long.
Speaker 3: List too, Louisa Andres. These are all great aliases. If anyone, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: I have a couple.
Speaker 2: You can't use an alias anymore when you check into hotel.
Speaker 3: That used to be the best I know, right, Missus
Speaker 3: f H Brodie, Ela Drama, El Dramas, Sophie de Varney
Speaker 3: Rose Divine, that's nice, Sarah English, Julia Kelso, Sophie Levy,
Speaker 3: Susan Lockwood, Katie Laurane.
Speaker 2: Lockwood sounds like she's going to be nominated for a
Speaker 2: Daytime any I.
Speaker 3: Was thinking that sounds like yeah, And whether that's the
Speaker 3: character or the act, I don't know. Kate Lrangey, Kate Loranger,
Speaker 3: Sophie Lorenz Close, Kate Lucas, s E Lucas, Sarah Lyons Lucas.
Speaker 2: I think I bought her book is a.
Speaker 3: Professor, Sophie Monarchy, Fanny Owings Owen, Sarah Richardson, Harriet Smith,
Speaker 3: Jane Smith, Sarah Smith, Luisa, Sylvan, Mary Walton, Catherine Williams,
Speaker 3: and Kate Wilson.
Speaker 2: Kate Wilson sounds like a British folk singer, Kate Wilson.
Speaker 3: Kate, Well, she can go like for the generic name
Speaker 3: and then she has some that are out there. Most
Speaker 3: of what we know about Sophie comes from either her
Speaker 3: nineteen thirteen autobiography or an eighteen eighty six article about
Speaker 3: her by Thomas Burns. And so, like the best narrators,
Speaker 3: she was unreliable and I love.
Speaker 4: The chaos of that.
Speaker 3: I love it. It drives Marissa the researcher nuts. She
Speaker 3: can't stand it. She always has these caveats for me,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, no, this is that means it's good. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you're into story stories and Sarah not a storytime. So
Speaker 3: let's get to the start. Sophie Elkin was born on
Speaker 3: Christmas Eve in eighteen forty seven. Now, sometimes she'd tell
Speaker 3: people that it was in New York City, sometimes England,
Speaker 3: but she was likely born in Bavaria. She came from
Speaker 3: a family of criminals and they taught her the trade early,
Speaker 3: like mostly pickpocketing and shoplifting, street crime, criming one O one.
Speaker 4: So she came to the US.
Speaker 2: So not like doing like three card MONI they're not
Speaker 2: doing a circus crime. She's like cut purse stuff.
Speaker 3: She came to the US when she was eight, and
Speaker 3: her parents had already come over, and she and her
Speaker 3: siblings were joining them, and the family then settled in
Speaker 3: Little Germany in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Her dad was
Speaker 3: a burglar and a fence and pretty soon her mom
Speaker 3: was out of the picture. Your guess is as good
Speaker 3: as mine as to what happened there. But a criminal
Speaker 3: step mom arrived on the scene and continued Sophie's training is.
Speaker 2: That like an aberranth of thee.
Speaker 3: Here's what she so for yourself said quote, I was
Speaker 3: very happy because I was petted and rewarded. My wretched
Speaker 3: stepmother patted my curly head, gave me a bag of
Speaker 3: candy and said I was a good girl. And that
Speaker 3: was when she produced. When she actually brought goods home.
Speaker 3: When she didn't come home with enough loot, she was
Speaker 3: physically punished. She wrote quote, I was taught how to
Speaker 3: open shopping bags, feel out the loose money or the pocketbook,
Speaker 3: and get it into my little hands without attracting the
Speaker 3: attention of my victims. I was provided with a very
Speaker 3: sharp little knife, and I was carefully instructed how to
Speaker 3: slit open women's shopping bags, which are generally made of
Speaker 3: knitted cloth, so that I could get my fingers in.
Speaker 3: So this is just a little girl. So she and
Speaker 3: her stepmom they would hit department stores, public transportation museums,
Speaker 3: like anywhere it's crowded and people can get jostled.
Speaker 2: To do what she's trying to do. You gotta have
Speaker 2: a really sharp knife. Yes, you know, I mean to
Speaker 2: cut fat.
Speaker 3: I would have already cut my hands a million times,
Speaker 3: I believe, all over people. So she the first time
Speaker 3: she was arrested was in eighteen fifty nine, and so
Speaker 3: she was born eighteen forty seven, so she's twelve.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's about right though.
Speaker 3: Yeah. According to Barbara Gray's City University of New York
Speaker 3: graduate thesis entitled Queen of the Underworld, The Biography of
Speaker 3: Sophie Lyons, quote, one day in eighteen fifty nine, a
Speaker 3: patrolman named Sergeant Jordan decided to investigate the increase in
Speaker 3: complaints of pickpocketing at Barnum's American Museum on Anna Street
Speaker 3: and Broadway, the eighteen year old museum that was created
Speaker 3: by entrepreneur and master of Humbug Phineas T. Barnum. Barnum
Speaker 3: fleeced the attendees on the way into the museum, and
Speaker 3: pickpockets fleeced them on the way out. Sergeant Jordan arrested
Speaker 3: twelve year old Sophie and her partner, a twelve year
Speaker 3: old nuxman named Tommy Stax.
Speaker 4: What a knocksman is.
Speaker 3: A term for a pickpocket From that day, I had to.
Speaker 4: Look that aut interesting.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I think you just gave me
Speaker 2: a new alias, Phineas T. Burnett. I'm going to use that.
Speaker 3: I thought you were going to say Tommy Stacks. Name
Speaker 3: Tommy Stacks, So twelve year old Tommy Stacks is a
Speaker 3: tough name. So that bus landed her in the House
Speaker 3: of Refuge was a prison for young offenders on Randall's
Speaker 3: Island in the East River. According to Barbara Gray, quote,
Speaker 3: children at the House of Refuge were classified from one
Speaker 3: to four. Class four children were quote vicious, bad, or wicked,
Speaker 3: and they were accorded to fewest privileges. Sophie was a
Speaker 3: Class three, which meant that officials believed that she was
Speaker 3: immoral in her conduct, but not yet irredeemable. Her records
Speaker 3: mentioned that rumors say that the mother lived off the
Speaker 3: depredations of her children on the public. This we know
Speaker 3: nothing of, but there seems something mysterious in the case.
Speaker 3: The child is very quick, nervous, and precocious and needs
Speaker 3: training in a steady way. So yes, as you can
Speaker 3: probably guess she ever went to school, there was zero
Speaker 3: TI imagining that she went to her stepmom school of
Speaker 3: criminal enterprise.
Speaker 2: She may know her letters, you know, like I'm imagining
Speaker 2: that maybe maybe.
Speaker 3: She didn't get reading or writing skills until she was
Speaker 3: an adult twenty five years old.
Speaker 2: Oh I take it back, Yeah, I mean she.
Speaker 3: Could probably like identify letters or whatever.
Speaker 2: But people's shape, read notes and music.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so back in her teen years, when she was fifteen,
Speaker 3: she got married. Oh yeah, Morris Harris was his name.
Speaker 3: He was a shoemaker and a pickpocket. His hustle culture
Speaker 3: like a side gig we all have. So that marriage
Speaker 3: didn't last if you can believe it. I mean, I'll
Speaker 3: give you a second to cut wrecordest Around this time,
Speaker 3: her dad opened up a clothing store and then he
Speaker 3: ran this fence business out of there, so it was
Speaker 3: more hot goods clearing house than house of high fashion.
Speaker 3: Sophie was working at the time for one of the
Speaker 3: greatest fences of them all, none other than Fredrika marm Mandelbam.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so Sophie was her star pupil. She was
Speaker 3: part of an elite squad of dedicated confidence women who
Speaker 3: steal cash and jewels while stealing hearts. These are their stories.
Speaker 3: You know how music producers hire young folks to be
Speaker 3: in a band like the Monkeys Menudo, This was like that,
Speaker 3: so mar mandelbomb. She put together a crew that included
Speaker 3: a well known pickpocket, Kate Gorman, and then her future husband,
Speaker 3: an accomplished bank robber named John red Leary. And then
Speaker 3: another fella in the mix was a quote dashing bank
Speaker 3: burglar named Edward ned Lyons. Sophie found a partner both
Speaker 3: in life and crime.
Speaker 2: Both of them did apparently prepare.
Speaker 3: Matchmaking thing double dating. And so she's eighteen at this point,
Speaker 3: now entering into her second marriage. Criminal two of four
Speaker 3: in her matrimonial record. So a little about ned ned
Speaker 3: was about a decade older than Sophie eight or so. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and he was born in England to a very law
Speaker 3: abiding family. And that's probably where Sophie borrowed the occasional
Speaker 3: phony origin story, I got you. So he arrived in
Speaker 3: the States in eighteen fifty, and he immediately started breaking
Speaker 3: the law. According to the New York Times quote, Lions
Speaker 3: was big and strong and handsome and had a heavy
Speaker 3: red mustache. When he met Sophie soon after the Civil War,
Speaker 3: he'd been doing big jobs for several years. She helped
Speaker 3: him do bigger.
Speaker 2: And how did he avoid the Civil War?
Speaker 3: Well, you'll find out, you know, I know that you
Speaker 3: just can't resist a heavy red mustache.
Speaker 2: Tucker for a man, especially if it's red like you
Speaker 2: could see it from across the.
Speaker 4: Road a yell. Ned.
Speaker 3: He got his criminal start as a bounty jumper in
Speaker 3: the Civil War. Is at the time you could pay
Speaker 3: your way out of service in the Union or even Confederate.
Speaker 2: Army outside, especially the confederatescy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And when the government would turn around and offer
Speaker 3: that money as a sort of signing bonus to new
Speaker 3: draftees a bounty to serve, so Ned would enlist, get
Speaker 3: the cash, and then dessert. And he did this sometimes
Speaker 3: as often as eighteen times a month, eighteen times in
Speaker 3: a month.
Speaker 2: Finding enough draft boards to go to or whatever organization
Speaker 2: you would touch you If he's going.
Speaker 3: I see that big red mustache come in. And so,
Speaker 3: according to the blog Professional Criminals of America revised quote,
Speaker 3: at the beginning of the war, he was a young man, handsome, daring,
Speaker 3: and athletic, and he turned his talents to robbing drunken
Speaker 3: soldiers until the game became risky, and then he became
Speaker 3: a full fledged bounty jumper. So you know, he's stealing
Speaker 3: the bounty out of soldiers pockets. He's like, why don't
Speaker 3: I cut out the middle.
Speaker 2: He's not easily identifiable.
Speaker 3: So then he fell in with this guy Jimmy Hope
Speaker 3: and his son Johnny. Jimmy Hope, Jimmy Hope.
Speaker 4: And Johnny Hope, the Hope.
Speaker 3: So Jimmy was a mentor, and then Ned and Johnny
Speaker 3: would like run jobs together. They robbed the Philadelphia Navy
Speaker 3: Yard in eighteen seventy, which was like understandably a big deal.
Speaker 3: That was a year after they had robbed the Ocean
Speaker 3: Bank in New York. And I've talked about that one before.
Speaker 3: They rented the basement next door. They got to tunneling
Speaker 3: in and out. They went for a week secreting.
Speaker 4: Away money, valuables.
Speaker 3: And like some of it was just too much to carry,
Speaker 3: like all these bags of gold, but it netted them
Speaker 3: a ton of money. Marm was involved in this.
Speaker 2: We's got too much gold, so it's just simply.
Speaker 3: Too much gold. Are you tired of having so much gold?
Speaker 3: After this? Ned was like, you know, I think how
Speaker 3: I want to go straight? So like he and Sophie
Speaker 3: had a kid. He bought them a farm on Long Island,
Speaker 3: Family Way, Yeah, and he wanted to live a quiet life.
Speaker 3: Sophie was not about that. She wanted she'd go out
Speaker 3: and she would steal stuff, just for kicks, not survival,
Speaker 3: and then she'd like, palm a bunch of gold watches,
Speaker 3: come home, hand them to Ned and just like laugh
Speaker 3: herself silly. And he was not amused. So he wanted
Speaker 3: like a trad wife. We would say out and Sophie
Speaker 3: was anything but And like he's like, look, I have
Speaker 3: all these wonderful things for you. You could be making a home.
Speaker 3: You're not allowed to go out and steal, he tells her,
Speaker 3: and she's like, oh, yeah, totally, And then she would
Speaker 3: go sneak out and steal. According to New York Times,
Speaker 3: way back when the house quote had everything a woman
Speaker 3: could want. He imagined that mother love would keep Sophie quiet.
Speaker 3: It did for six months. Then she put little George
Speaker 3: out to nurse and came back to New York and
Speaker 3: was caught and sent to Blackwell's Island. Little George also
Speaker 3: went his way. He was sent to prison twice before
Speaker 3: he was full grown, and he died in prison, cut
Speaker 3: off in his prime. Said his mother. Oh so yeah,
Speaker 3: like she's you know kid, Yeah, so crime is in
Speaker 3: her blood. She passes it along to her kid. She
Speaker 3: couldn't help it. But I don't think it was like
Speaker 3: a compulsion. I think it's just all she knew. I'd
Speaker 3: never gone to school.
Speaker 2: Well she could teach.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and everyone around her had done the same growing up.
Speaker 2: And it's fun.
Speaker 3: Well, and don't forget it's super fun. And Ned came
Speaker 3: from a straight arrow family, so he wasn't raised that way,
Speaker 3: so the farm life felt.
Speaker 2: Normal to him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it was like completely foreign to Sophie, and
Speaker 3: so she bucked against it.
Speaker 2: So he was more of an opportunist and she was
Speaker 2: more of like, you know, this is what we do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was like going through a phase.
Speaker 4: Yea, yeah, let's.
Speaker 3: Stop here for some good old fashioned ads. Yum is
Speaker 3: what I say, young coming, I love commerce. When we
Speaker 3: come back, we're going to dive into the particulars of
Speaker 3: Sophie's next phase of criminal conduct. Zaren Sophie Lions we're
Speaker 3: talking about here today. She got her start as a pickpocket,
Speaker 3: got in with a notorious scam crew, married a member
Speaker 3: of the crew, moved to the suburbs. Couldn't give up
Speaker 3: the life, so she went back to Manhattan and back
Speaker 3: to her con games. She called herself Queen of the Underworld.
Speaker 3: She gave herself that name.
Speaker 2: So it's a little tough for me. I mean, I
Speaker 2: can't speak you know it.
Speaker 3: But you're working for marm Mamblebomb.
Speaker 2: You're not underwear unless she's the empress, you know, right.
Speaker 3: But she sort of lived up to the moniker she had. Really,
Speaker 3: she had all these like super innovative for the time
Speaker 3: schemes and hets. So like a good con artist, she
Speaker 3: dressed the part. And when she was like swindling or
Speaker 3: scamming the rich, you know, you got to dress like
Speaker 3: you're one of them.
Speaker 4: That part of the con right.
Speaker 3: She wore these expensive gorgeous dresses, silk, you know, lace, satin,
Speaker 3: and then when she cozied up to the swells. They're like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're one of us. You know, she's at the same
Speaker 3: expensive restaurant or the ombre that sort of thing. And
Speaker 3: we see that with like modern day con artists and
Speaker 3: a Delvey as an example that.
Speaker 2: It's basically presumed innocence by association.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, if you're here, you want to be exactly.
Speaker 3: There's this magazine Our Detroit, not oh you are Detroit,
Speaker 3: but h oh you are anyway, they wrote, quote, she
Speaker 3: was a consummate actress, could be demure when it best
Speaker 3: fitted the circumstances, or she could assume the grand and
Speaker 3: lofty manner. She could weep or smile as she chose,
Speaker 3: So she's chowfolk. This manipulation extended to her court appearances.
Speaker 2: Oh I bet.
Speaker 3: Back to our Detroit quote. As a young woman, she
Speaker 3: was the first to employ the kleptomaniac defense, getting a
Speaker 3: charge dismissed by tearfully explaining to a New York court
Speaker 3: that her compulsive stealing was something she had no control
Speaker 3: over because of her upbringing.
Speaker 4: It's not a bad argument.
Speaker 2: And yeah, there's some real way to it.
Speaker 3: Well, and it made her the victim, which is something
Speaker 3: con artists used to their advantage all the time. So
Speaker 3: her cons let's get to them. If her robbery crew,
Speaker 3: she would act as the decoy, so she'd make eyes
Speaker 3: at the mail cashier at a bank, flirt up a storm. Meanwhile,
Speaker 3: her highst team would like carefully creep behind the counter
Speaker 3: and nab the cash box or the stacks of bonds.
Speaker 3: How distrategy is the peripheral vision? Does it tell you?
Speaker 3: Or I think she's maybe like pulling him across the
Speaker 3: counter and like whispering sweet nothings like.
Speaker 4: Do you like hot dogs? You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah exactly, And so that kind of
Speaker 3: hurt my throat.
Speaker 2: I almost crossed the studio.
Speaker 3: So she had something that was the sliding drawer panel trick.
Speaker 3: So she would lure a guy to her room, you know,
Speaker 3: under the context of romance, and she'd offer the guy
Speaker 3: like use of a dresser drawer if he wants to
Speaker 3: put away some of his goal her jewelry or watches
Speaker 3: or whatever, just for safe keeping while things get a
Speaker 3: little steamy, and like maybe it's a large piece, like
Speaker 3: you know, you don't want it to be mislaid or damaged.
Speaker 4: I don't know, just go ahead, put it in the drawer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the mark would take her up on it,
Speaker 3: and then Sophie would wait a bit and then be like, excuse,
Speaker 3: excuse me, I have to go freshen up, and she'd
Speaker 3: leave the room. Then she duck into the next room
Speaker 3: where she'd cut a hole in the wall, and the
Speaker 3: hole led to the drawer of the dresser, and so
Speaker 3: she'd reach into the drawer, grab the goods, and then leave.
Speaker 4: And then the guy is sitting.
Speaker 3: There waiting and waiting and waiting, and then he decides
Speaker 3: to leave, opens the drawer. It's empty. Good job, Sophie.
Speaker 2: So she ran apartment no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she ran a lot of romance schemes. Like
Speaker 3: one of her favorites was wooing a rich guy, like
Speaker 3: say a banker or lawyer or something. And then she'd
Speaker 3: get him to come up to her hotel room under
Speaker 3: the pretense that like.
Speaker 4: He was going to get lucky.
Speaker 3: She's talking hot dogs again. So they get up there
Speaker 3: and she'd be like, strip for me, take your clothes off,
Speaker 3: and you know, this revved up guy would do what
Speaker 3: she asked, like maybe he likes being bossed around a
Speaker 3: little bit by her.
Speaker 2: Take off these wolf slacks right, and like.
Speaker 3: All the ninety layers and like give me time. As
Speaker 3: soon as he was naked, she'd grab his clothes and
Speaker 3: lock him in her trunk just as fast as she could,
Speaker 3: so the guy girl, yeah, she's yeah. So the guy
Speaker 3: would be standing there like begging her to give him
Speaker 3: his clothes back and looking all pale and flabby, and
Speaker 3: she'd tell the guy, like, you can have your duds
Speaker 3: in exchange for.
Speaker 4: A thousand bucks she'd sell.
Speaker 3: And if he didn't like that deal, she's like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go downstairs and cause a huge scene
Speaker 3: screaming about a naked man in my room.
Speaker 4: Oh like I'm a lady.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Inevitably the guy would.
Speaker 2: Play law cost more, yes, and this fancy set of clothes.
Speaker 3: So she'd make a grand give him his clothes back,
Speaker 3: send him on his way. She also loved false compartments,
Speaker 3: so she'd like hollow out the heels of her shoes
Speaker 3: or put a false bottom in a steamer trunk to
Speaker 3: move stuff around. She was usually calling herself when she
Speaker 3: did like the larger scale stuff like that Madame de Varney.
Speaker 3: Yeah for that way. She's just a noble woman on
Speaker 3: a grand tour and she You know, she also happened
Speaker 3: to make pals and rob them and hide their treasures
Speaker 3: in the false bottom of a trunk, you know, a
Speaker 3: gallon of bone vy ash. So eighteen seventy one, the
Speaker 3: law caught up to Sophie. She got busted, She did
Speaker 3: six months in jail. And what's Net up to at
Speaker 3: this point? Please tell me, sir, I was about to ask. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he had to scratch that criminal itch too. He went
Speaker 3: back to stealing. Yeah, he couldn't help it. And I
Speaker 3: think it's also maybe the only way he knew how
Speaker 3: to make a buck.
Speaker 2: I was wondering farming.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, but he was perhaps out of practice because
Speaker 3: he too got busted and he got sentenced to seven
Speaker 3: years in Sing Sing prison. Oh yeah, And at this point,
Speaker 3: Sophie just out of jail, so she hears about him
Speaker 3: going into Sing Sing. She gets busted again, this time
Speaker 3: for grand larceny and that got her a five year
Speaker 3: sentence also at Sing Sing to get there, that was
Speaker 3: part of the plan, like, this is part of the
Speaker 3: Sophie show. So she wanted to get as close to
Speaker 3: Ned as she could so she could spring him. So
Speaker 3: she goes to Sing Sing. It's on her best behavior.
Speaker 2: This is this is.
Speaker 4: A long con.
Speaker 3: This is like, yeah, she's she's so well behaved and
Speaker 3: she's convincing everyone so charming. It got her a job
Speaker 3: as a personal servant to the prison's head matron. Like
Speaker 3: she knew how to work people and like get what
Speaker 3: she wanted. So pretty soon she's nanny to the matron's kids. Wow,
Speaker 3: and she's like, you know, I need to get these
Speaker 3: kids outside get some fresh air. So they let her
Speaker 3: take the kids on strolls outside of the prison walls,
Speaker 3: and on one of her walks, she rendezvous with some
Speaker 3: of Ned's gangs. Like, hey, kids, you sit over there.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go talk to these bout boys and
Speaker 3: hang it out. Yeah, so please don't go. This is
Speaker 3: we're planning a surprise for your mom. So Sophie and
Speaker 3: the gang cooked up a scheme to get Ned out.
Speaker 3: And it wasn't like an explosive caper. They worked out
Speaker 3: a way for him to just waltz out of the place,
Speaker 3: and that's exactly what he did just a few days later,
Speaker 3: so they they it was just.
Speaker 2: With her charmed everybody, and she's like, you know, I
Speaker 2: need someone to chaperone me. Why take care of the kids.
Speaker 3: So off he goes. Then Ned's out, She's still in.
Speaker 3: Ned returns the favor. So, as Our Detroit tells it, quote,
Speaker 3: one night, just before Christmas eighteen seventy two, he and
Speaker 3: an accomplice drove a sleigh in a blizzard up to
Speaker 3: the prison entrance. They rang the bell and announced they
Speaker 3: were delivering fruit for a sick prisoner. As a guard
Speaker 3: reached for the basket, Sophie ran through the open gate
Speaker 3: and jumped into the sleigh, which then disappeared into the
Speaker 3: blinding Snow what that is the most whimsical escape I
Speaker 3: can imagine.
Speaker 2: It's just like Clement second poem.
Speaker 4: It's like a Robert Frost poem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he tried to do a sequel to I got
Speaker 2: another Christmas joint.
Speaker 3: Check this one out. It starts at singing. So New
Speaker 3: York was too hot for Sophie. At this point she
Speaker 3: goes to Boston and she said, you know, shipping up
Speaker 3: to Boston, she wasn't a sailor peg. She lost her
Speaker 3: legs still, so she hooks up with Kate Leary aka
Speaker 3: Red Kate, and her husband is Red Leary, right, So
Speaker 3: Red Leary and Red Kate are like punk names like
Speaker 3: they were like in a band called like bled Red
Speaker 3: or something, and then they just go by, Yeah, it sounds.
Speaker 2: Like aging punk, like turned rockabilly.
Speaker 3: That's a crazy pipeline, bright the way, the aging punk
Speaker 3: to rockabilly pipeline. So anyways, so Sophie and Kate they
Speaker 3: ran blackmail cons together. So they'd go to this fancy hotel.
Speaker 3: Sophie would catch the attention of a rich guy and
Speaker 3: seduce him. She'd get him up to her room and
Speaker 3: do the old clothes locked in the trunk thing. And
Speaker 3: one time though, she got ten thousand dollars out of
Speaker 3: the fella, almost like he cut her a check. She
Speaker 3: ups it and she immediately hands the check off to
Speaker 3: Red Kate, and Kate ran like the wind to the
Speaker 3: bank to cash it. The problem was that the guy
Speaker 3: didn't have ten grand in the bank, and the bank
Speaker 3: managers like, this whole thing is fishy. That's a lot
Speaker 3: of money. You are a rascally looking lady. Yeah, what's
Speaker 3: your name?
Speaker 4: Red guy got this money exactly, So.
Speaker 3: They put the screws on Red Kate and she they're
Speaker 3: asking her all these questions. She buckles, lets it slip.
Speaker 3: Where the rich guy was what hotel. So the cops
Speaker 3: went there, found the guy and Sophie. The guy tells
Speaker 3: him what happens, everything falls apart. Sophie and Kate get arrested.
Speaker 3: But this was like sort of embarrassing for this guy,
Speaker 3: so when it came time for court, he refused to
Speaker 3: testify or even like appear in the room.
Speaker 4: Okay, he just like yeah, charged right.
Speaker 3: So in eighteen seventy seven, Sophie moved to Detroit and
Speaker 3: her daughter Florence lived there. You know, she had had
Speaker 3: more kids, Okay, and it was also nice and close
Speaker 3: to Canada, so she could pop over the border when
Speaker 3: the heat was onep and the heat was often on.
Speaker 3: So she got up to all sorts of no good
Speaker 3: in Detroit. For example, the ann Arbor Observer reports quote
Speaker 3: in eighteen eighty one, she attempted to blackmail George Hendry,
Speaker 3: the owner of the Detroit City Railway, claiming Henry had
Speaker 3: been her lover and had fathered a child with her.
Speaker 3: She demanded reparations and threatened to go public if he
Speaker 3: didn't pay. Henry stubbornly refused. Lyons then tried to shoot
Speaker 3: Henry at his Detroit office. Fortunately, she was a bad
Speaker 3: shot and the bullet missed its target. She was charged
Speaker 3: with shooting with intent to kill.
Speaker 2: This is the first time we heard her get violent.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Do you think it's a little bit of a real
Speaker 2: history between.
Speaker 3: Them, I don't think so.
Speaker 2: So she just got a little heat and decided to
Speaker 2: let one off near his head and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she may have been like packing heat and
Speaker 3: other occasions, but it doesn't get mentioned in anything. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so that same year, Sophie went to the Washingtonaw
Speaker 3: County Fair ann Arbor is Okay, thank you. And that's
Speaker 3: also the home of the city of Ipsilante, oh National
Speaker 3: count And every time I hear Ipsilante, I think of
Speaker 3: the Elvis Costello song Sulfur to Sugarcane. It's on the
Speaker 3: Secret Profane and Sugarcane album, which is fantastic, one of
Speaker 3: my favorite takes anyway, So Sulfur to Sugarcane is written
Speaker 3: in the voice of this con man who's making his
Speaker 3: way from town to town, and like he name checks
Speaker 3: these towns and he's talking about the women he's encountered,
Speaker 3: stuff like, but in Albany, New York, they love the
Speaker 3: filthy way I talk. And there's this line, but I
Speaker 3: hear an Ippsilanti they don't wear any panties. And so
Speaker 3: as I'm reading all this about Sophie, every time I
Speaker 3: see Ipseilani, I get the song stuck in my head
Speaker 3: and I have to listen to it anyway. So Sophie,
Speaker 3: she goes to the County fair.
Speaker 2: By the way, do you think of Elvis is like
Speaker 2: the British son of Bob Dylan in terms of like
Speaker 2: how his attitude is. You're like, how would you play that?
Speaker 3: That's a good way to put it. Yeah, there's an
Speaker 3: interesting talk right now about Bob. Bob Dylan's on tour
Speaker 3: and you and I actually saw him a couple of
Speaker 3: years and he was very strange. He didn't play any hits, and.
Speaker 2: He came out there in the pajamas and bottoms.
Speaker 3: And like in like a hoodie and yeah, it was
Speaker 3: just very strange in.
Speaker 4: A beanie casual and then like and warm weather dress.
Speaker 3: So I guess he's still doing that, and people are
Speaker 3: getting really upset that he's not delivering, and they're not
Speaker 3: like you know, you and I are like, this is great,
Speaker 3: this is Dylan.
Speaker 2: I want Dylan exactly.
Speaker 3: And so, but he's been He's been talking a lot about,
Speaker 3: you know, in interviews, about his place in the world,
Speaker 3: that he's eighty and kind of how he doesn't really care,
Speaker 3: and times he realized that.
Speaker 2: That whole I don't say article, but he was asked
Speaker 2: about turning eighty and he wrote that really beautiful thing
Speaker 2: was talking about being like a king and a forgotten
Speaker 2: kingdom and all that means. It's amazing. I was like, dude,
Speaker 2: and still got it.
Speaker 3: I can see Elvis Costello falling into that category. Two,
Speaker 3: not that he's like a cuck who wears whatever he wants,
Speaker 3: but like the notion of kind of like moving beyond
Speaker 3: what is expected of you.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they almost love to do it.
Speaker 3: I know. I think that's awesome. So anyway, Sophie County Fair.
Speaker 3: Someone else who was there was Harriet Cornwell, and she
Speaker 3: was the elderly wife of a wealthy Ipsilany paper mill owner,
Speaker 3: Harriet Cornwell of the Ipsilany Cornwell.
Speaker 2: I was just about asking Elizabeth so and the Cornwell
Speaker 2: that's another.
Speaker 3: Thing to say that, like you can go around and
Speaker 3: be like, my wife is a wealthy ipsil Any paper
Speaker 3: mill owner. When you're turning people, I'm going to it
Speaker 3: has to. So she and Sophie were there on the
Speaker 3: same day. Cornwell was in the floral hall. She's checking
Speaker 3: out the floral things. A woman sort of swans up
Speaker 3: to her. She's wearing this broad brimmed hat with a veil.
Speaker 3: It's Sophie. This is her signature. Look, by the way,
Speaker 3: at this point like she always wears a huge hat
Speaker 3: and a veil.
Speaker 4: All the time.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, but everywhere, so respect to that. So
Speaker 3: Sophie asks Cornwell if she dropped her handkerchief. So Cornwell
Speaker 3: she digs around her things and she realizes she had,
Speaker 3: and Sophie's like, I'm going to find it for you.
Speaker 3: And Cornwell is like, thinking, how terribly kind of her,
Speaker 3: and thanks you profusely. But I say, now, hold on
Speaker 3: one root and to the second, if someone asked if
Speaker 3: I had dropped my handkerchief, I would think they'd be
Speaker 3: asking because they found one on the ground and wanted
Speaker 3: to know if it was mine. Yes, so then and
Speaker 3: if they said they'd help me find it, I'd be like,
Speaker 3: how do you know I lost it in the first place?
Speaker 2: Yes, unless they just happened to see it dropped from
Speaker 2: my hand, I guess.
Speaker 3: But see, like Cornwell was quite old and not in
Speaker 3: good health, and she got easily confused. We aren't confused
Speaker 3: because we aren't in a crowded concourse, and we have
Speaker 3: the benefit of time and background knowledge. There's that, so
Speaker 3: we know that Sophie grabbed the kerchief as a ruse
Speaker 3: like a way to open up contact with the rich lad.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So Sophie asks everyone around step aside, step aside, please,
Speaker 3: I have to find this incredible handkerchief, which she did,
Speaker 3: and then she hands it over to Cornwell and then poof,
Speaker 3: she's gone. Cornwell didn't even get a chance to say
Speaker 3: thank you the mystery woman in the veil vamous. So
Speaker 3: the other thing that was vamoose Cornwell's gold watch and
Speaker 3: chain that was also gone. So let's pause here, catch
Speaker 3: our collective breath. When we get back from these ads,
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you about how this one act
Speaker 3: became part of Sophie's undoing. Zaren Elizabeth's it uh.
Speaker 4: Oh Zaren, Oh Sophie.
Speaker 3: Oh this is oh Sophie. So Sophie lyons she's in
Speaker 3: Detroit at this point, and the Detroit Police Superintendent Andrew
Speaker 3: Rogers was sick and tired of her, like she'd been
Speaker 3: pinched for shoplifting. Yeah, and he's like, I know that
Speaker 3: she's done so much more than this.
Speaker 2: But but she's not getting sent to like the Detroit
Speaker 2: House of Corrections a ticket or something weekend.
Speaker 3: Right, So he's like, I know she's pickpocketing, I know
Speaker 3: she's shoplifting. She's doing all sorts of this stuff. He
Speaker 3: just couldn't prove it, like, not by normal methods, but
Speaker 3: he was a creative thinkers there. He went out and
Speaker 3: hired this lady, Teresa Lewis. She was a widow. She
Speaker 3: was also totally broke, and he offered her cash if
Speaker 3: she would get close to Sophie and gather incriminating evidence.
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought he was going to make her a target.
Speaker 3: He makes Sara like be a confidential informant BCI. So
Speaker 3: per the Ann Arbor Observer quote, in the summer of
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty one, Lewis went to Lion's house and asked
Speaker 3: to read the Bible with her. Sophie wanted nothing to
Speaker 3: do with the Bible, but she offered to let Louis
Speaker 3: stay as a tenant. Okay, I love this, It's so weird,
Speaker 3: Like I don't want to read the Bible with you,
Speaker 3: but I will rent you a room.
Speaker 2: Yeah you can stay here though, Yeah, you seem like
Speaker 2: you need a cover exactly your head.
Speaker 3: So Lewis moved on it. She took stock of things.
Speaker 3: She's you know, she's living there. She's relaying everything she
Speaker 3: sees to Rogers, and it seemed Sophie's housekeeper, Sarah Brew,
Speaker 3: she was getting a lot of packages like something that
Speaker 3: you make fun of me for. Yes, but some of
Speaker 3: us don't like to leave the house.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 3: So the packages, unlike mine, were full of stolen goods,
Speaker 3: and they were sent from the same person, Sarah Smith,
Speaker 3: which was actually Sophie. So Lewis. She squirreled away the
Speaker 3: package wrapping and took it to Rogers, and Rogers was like,
Speaker 3: this is very promising, scratching his chin. He had officers
Speaker 3: grabbed the housekeeper's packages at the post office before they
Speaker 3: were delivered, like this is police business. The first right,
Speaker 3: I'm like, is this do you have a word for
Speaker 3: The first box they got was sent from Cleveland, and
Speaker 3: it was full of watches and jewelry, like just a
Speaker 3: box of watches, us box and you know who had
Speaker 3: just been to Cleveland, that's right, Sophie. She actually went
Speaker 3: there for President Garfield's funeral.
Speaker 4: I was just.
Speaker 2: It was totally the air.
Speaker 3: And you can imagine at an event like that, that's
Speaker 3: a great place to exactly. So then another package shows up,
Speaker 3: and this one's sent from ann Arbor and inside Harriet
Speaker 3: Cornwell's gold watch and chain.
Speaker 2: Dum.
Speaker 3: They had Sophie dead to rights, so she gets charged
Speaker 3: with larceny from the person for stealing Cornwell's stuff. They
Speaker 3: just needed witnesses who could place Sophie at the County
Speaker 3: Fair that same day. But remember she always wore the
Speaker 3: big hat and a veil. It's a great way to
Speaker 3: hid your identity. I'm gonna try it. Don't start doing
Speaker 3: I think with facial recognition, I think I should. So
Speaker 3: there were some witnesses who swore they saw Sophie in
Speaker 3: the floral hall. Others were like, I don't know, I
Speaker 3: just can't be sure. Sophie's lawyer worked hard to support
Speaker 3: her alibi. He found a bunch of folks who would
Speaker 3: swear up and down that she had been in Detroit
Speaker 3: that day and she could not have stolen the watch
Speaker 3: in the chain. So this would have to play out
Speaker 3: in court, and it most certainly did Zaren closeujazz I
Speaker 3: want you to picture it. You are Judge Chauncey Joslyn.
Speaker 3: You've been on the bench for some forty years now.
Speaker 3: You also to the stint as the mayor of Ipsilante.
Speaker 3: You are known as a fair and upright jurist, if
Speaker 3: a bit of an eccentric. Today you are presiding over
Speaker 3: the case.
Speaker 4: Of Sophie Lyons.
Speaker 3: She's accused of stealing the watch and chain of one
Speaker 3: Harriet Cornwell. There's been some discussion as to whether or
Speaker 3: not it can be proven that Missus Lyons was in
Speaker 3: ann Arbor on the day of the theft, and to
Speaker 3: that end, a witness for the prosecution is currently on
Speaker 3: the stand ready to make an identification. The only problem
Speaker 3: is that Missus Lyons, who is seated in the courtroom,
Speaker 3: is wearing a very large hat with a veil. The
Speaker 3: prosecutor asks his witness whether Missus Lyons was in the
Speaker 3: room and if she could point to her. The witness
Speaker 3: says she was not sure. She'd have to see the
Speaker 3: face of the woman in the veil. The courtroom grows silent,
Speaker 3: there's a cough, someone else clears their throat.
Speaker 4: Missus Lyons lawyer.
Speaker 3: Leans over and whispers to her. You're hoping he's telling
Speaker 3: her to raise that magnific veil. Missus Lyons is silent.
Speaker 3: Her lawyer whispers again, your honor, The prosecutor pleads, can
Speaker 3: you just instruct the defendant to raise her veil so
Speaker 3: that the witness may attempt to make an identification? You
Speaker 3: sigh and tell Missus Lyons to do just that. She
Speaker 3: sits not moving. You bang your gabble, Missus Lions, you bark,
Speaker 3: do raise your veil and make your face visible. Sophie
Speaker 3: Lyons springs to her feet, sending her chairs skidding across the.
Speaker 4: Floor behind her.
Speaker 3: The crowd in the courtin gasps. She reaches up and
Speaker 3: rips the hat and veil from her head, tossing them aside.
Speaker 3: They come to a clunking, landing on the bailiff's table.
Speaker 3: The crowd gasps again.
Speaker 4: You now see that she's.
Speaker 3: Wearing a pretty crazy looking blonde wig. She rips the
Speaker 3: wig from her head and tosses to the side. It
Speaker 3: lands in her lawyer's lap. Then, before you know it,
Speaker 3: she has scrabbled up over the table and is darting
Speaker 3: toward the witness stand.
Speaker 4: She knocks over a.
Speaker 3: Stack of papers on the prosecutor's table. As she passes,
Speaker 3: she gets right in the face of the witness.
Speaker 4: Is this good enough?
Speaker 3: She hisses, Can you see me now? The witness mumbles something.
Speaker 3: You have to admit that you are loving every second
Speaker 3: of this, but you have to get things back under control.
Speaker 4: You bang your gavel. Missus lyons that is enough.
Speaker 3: You in tone, still facing the witness and having never
Speaker 3: turned to show her face to the courtroom, she extends
Speaker 3: her left arm, puts her left hand out and snaps
Speaker 3: her fingers. Then she wiggles her fingers and impatiently snaps again.
Speaker 3: Her lawyer jumps to his feet, carrying her wig. He
Speaker 3: grabs the hat and veil from the bailiff as he passes.
Speaker 3: Now he's next to her, handing her the wig. She
Speaker 3: makes a contorted face at the witness and adjusts her
Speaker 3: hair piece. Then she's handed the hat and veil. She
Speaker 3: once again mean mugs the witness and she ad just
Speaker 3: the hat on her head. Before she lowers the veil,
Speaker 3: she looks at you and winks. Then her visage is
Speaker 3: once again shielded from sight. She turns and heads back
Speaker 3: to her seat. She curtsies before she sits. The crowd
Speaker 3: in the courtrooms collaps, ten minute recess, you call out,
Speaker 3: banging your gavel. So this, this sort of foolishness was
Speaker 3: par for the course with Sophie in court theater. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: she'd wail and moan that if she went to prison
Speaker 3: there'd be no one to care for her five kids,
Speaker 3: and like some of them are grown, but she didn't
Speaker 3: talk about that. Sometimes she would shout threats at witnesses
Speaker 3: while they're on the stand. She insulted just about everybody
Speaker 3: in the room and like this made it the hottest
Speaker 3: ticket in town. Oh yeah, everyone wanted to see the
Speaker 3: spectacle and they really loved when she insulted the Bible
Speaker 3: thumping ci Teresa Lewis. Because see, here's the thing. The
Speaker 3: stage had been set for their rivalry already, because before
Speaker 3: Sophie was formally charged in the Cornwell case, she accused
Speaker 3: Louis of stealing from her, and that went to trial first,
Speaker 3: and it was an absolute zoo. She was like cracking
Speaker 3: jokes about Louis on the stand, like loving to read
Speaker 3: the Bible and how it got enough, I don't want
Speaker 3: to hear it. And then courtroom's cracking up as she's
Speaker 3: making all these jokes. According to the ann Arbor Observer
Speaker 3: quote in court and ann Arbor, Lyons and Lewis even
Speaker 3: physically fought. At one point, the judge ordered the two
Speaker 3: women to stand next to each other in order to
Speaker 3: compare their height. Lions took the opportunity to bash into Lewis,
Speaker 3: sending her flying across the courtroom.
Speaker 4: Why did they have.
Speaker 3: To compare height? The whole thing is a mess. So
Speaker 3: Lewis is acquitted. Sophie not so lucky. March eighteen eighty two,
Speaker 3: she gets convicted of stealing the watch in the chain.
Speaker 3: She was sentenced to four years and eleven months at
Speaker 3: the Detroit House of Correction di ho CO they call it.
Speaker 3: She did seven months and then the Michigan Supreme Court
Speaker 3: reversed her conviction, and so she gets tried again, convicted
Speaker 3: a second time in February eighteen eighty three, goes back
Speaker 3: to prison, gets out a couple months later because the
Speaker 3: court overturns her second conviction. Really, this was taking a
Speaker 3: toll on her, like the case has to be tried
Speaker 3: one more time. Sophie's begging for them to drop the charges.
Speaker 3: She's like I'm tired, I'm broke, I'm sick. I can't
Speaker 3: do it. I don't have it in me. Sorry. Back
Speaker 3: to court she goes. But the joke was on them
Speaker 3: because March eighteen eighty four she's found not guilty.
Speaker 4: Wow, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3: So finally free, Sophie went right back to the life.
Speaker 3: She spent the next fifteen years, as the ann Arbor
Speaker 3: Observer put it, quote shoplifting, pickpocketing, robbing banks and blackmailings,
Speaker 3: blackmailing people all over the Midwest and East Coast and
Speaker 3: in Europe, and ultimately she returned to her home in Detroit.
Speaker 4: So yeah, she liked the weather.
Speaker 3: She kicked it all off in New York, but it
Speaker 3: wasn't like the best plan. So she gets busted in
Speaker 3: eighteen eighty six robbing dry goods dealers on Sixth Avenue.
Speaker 3: She stole silk. She gave her name for that as
Speaker 3: Kate Wilson, and they didn't figure out her identity until
Speaker 3: the day of the trial in June tenth, eighteen eighty six.
Speaker 3: If she gets convicted and then she's sentenced to six
Speaker 3: months at the Penitentiarum Blackwells Island, so she gets out,
Speaker 3: she ups her game stays away from the small jobs
Speaker 3: that were her previous undoing. So she went big, which
Speaker 3: seems to be the way to get away with crime,
Speaker 3: if we've learned.
Speaker 2: It in America.
Speaker 4: Gotta go big.
Speaker 3: And like the thing is, she had money and she
Speaker 3: had property. She bounced between her home in Detroit, and
Speaker 3: like the French riviera, she went out to the west.
Speaker 3: And this is when she got into the diamonds smuggling
Speaker 3: out of Amsterdam. And like the hollow heels and the
Speaker 3: false bottom trunks. Oh and so by this point girl,
Speaker 3: now people are like, Okay, she's the Queen of crime.
Speaker 3: So she's not calling herself that they gave her the name.
Speaker 3: According to the New York Times quote, there was, for instance,
Speaker 3: the adventure of the charming American Widow in Paris. A
Speaker 3: gendarme near the Arc detriof happened to see the widow's
Speaker 3: hand in a man's pocket, arrest and then fearer the
Speaker 3: American colony was set by the ears at this horrible mistake,
Speaker 3: for who could believe it, and the Prefect of police
Speaker 3: himself was bluffed off the boards by Sophie More. The
Speaker 3: American minister took a hand on her behalf The upshot
Speaker 3: was that Sophie got off. Wow, so she just she
Speaker 3: can work anybody.
Speaker 4: Well, any man who's here, it sounds like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she wasn't phased by this brush with the law.
Speaker 3: She immediately pulled a jewel heist in Paris, a jewel
Speaker 3: she made off with two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
Speaker 3: in loot and like she came back to the States,
Speaker 3: conned the Vanderbilts into believing she was Mary Wilson, the
Speaker 3: daughter of a rich gold prospector the Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt.
Speaker 2: She goes bigger and bigger and bigger till she's like,
Speaker 2: are you the richest family around?
Speaker 3: Yeah, get over here. She's divorced from Ned by this time.
Speaker 3: She's all over the place with these wild capers. She
Speaker 3: took up with this guy named Billy Burke who was
Speaker 3: a bank robber, and they got busted robbing a bank
Speaker 3: in Mount Sterling, Kentucky in eighteen ninety two.
Speaker 2: Sounds desperate.
Speaker 3: That didn't stop her. She goes back to Detroit. She
Speaker 3: makes a go of living the straight and narrow. Okay,
Speaker 3: she's turning over a new lead girl is way too late,
Speaker 3: Well not really, because nineteen thirteen, her autobiography is released
Speaker 3: by a New York publisher and the title Why Crime
Speaker 3: Does Not Pay.
Speaker 4: Oh, so she's sixty six years old, So.
Speaker 2: Now she's going to be like a public speaker. She
Speaker 2: can't talk about how to go.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The book basically it tells her life from like child
Speaker 3: pickpocket to bank robber. She explains her eventual reform. She
Speaker 3: wanted people to know that a life of crime leads
Speaker 3: to suffering and loss, like, even if you're successful, people.
Speaker 2: Ate it up, leads to the gutter or the right.
Speaker 3: But here at the same time, it's this like first
Speaker 3: hand account of the criminal underworld, and she's name dropping
Speaker 3: famous criminals and like detailing heists and escapes. And so
Speaker 3: the public loves.
Speaker 2: Jewel heist, right, well, this is what we do.
Speaker 4: They love it.
Speaker 3: But it's all of this cautionary tale and people love
Speaker 3: that too.
Speaker 2: And transformation, yeah, exactly, second act.
Speaker 3: And we're getting, like nineteen thirteen, we're getting like more
Speaker 3: and more uptight in terms of, like, you know, putting
Speaker 3: the strictures on society and trying to do all these
Speaker 3: morality tales and stuff. So Sophie told the press that
Speaker 3: she was all about helping other crooks get right, like
Speaker 3: she wanted to give them a hand, pull them from
Speaker 3: the life, especially first defenders. And she spoke often about
Speaker 3: how hard it was for her when she got out
Speaker 3: of prison and couldn't get a job, and that her
Speaker 3: only option was to go back to crime, and she
Speaker 3: wanted others to be able to avoid that. Per hour
Speaker 3: Detroit quote, she spent thousands of dollars on shoes, clothes,
Speaker 3: and groceries for desperate families and found them lodging. She
Speaker 3: provided holiday meals to jails and helped ex prisoners get
Speaker 3: back on their feet. So at this point she's worth
Speaker 3: about a million dollars, more than thirty three million dollars today,
Speaker 3: and she made that by buying up real estate in
Speaker 3: Detroit with her ill gotten gains over the years. So smart.
Speaker 3: And then nineteen thirteen, Detroit's booming.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm about to give to get were huge.
Speaker 2: So May I got the Dodge Brothers and everybody doing.
Speaker 3: This exactly, exactly. So May seventh, nineteen twenty four, she
Speaker 3: was found unresponsive on the floor in her home. She
Speaker 3: was taken to the hospital. She didn't pull through, but
Speaker 3: a copy of Why Crime does Not Pay was on
Speaker 3: the table next to her hospital bed when she died,
Speaker 3: and that was in all the papers. And she left
Speaker 3: most of her estate to charity. In fact, the bulk
Speaker 3: of it went to this trust for fifty years to
Speaker 3: found a home for the children of convicts.
Speaker 2: Wow, that seems like there's a very earnest show.
Speaker 3: When the trustees of her will went to her home,
Speaker 3: it was like a treasure chest. It was like Scrooge
Speaker 3: McDuck basement. There's rings, watches, earrings, like sticking all these jewelry, coins, diamonds, pearls,
Speaker 3: you know, exactly to our Detroit quote. There was a
Speaker 3: giant starburst brooch with an eight carrot stone in the center,
Speaker 3: a twelve carrot diamond ring and a blazing diamond cross.
Speaker 3: So she had just stolen this stuff all over the
Speaker 3: wa but at this point you can't track it back.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's gone and.
Speaker 3: Some of it's probably like from Europe and who knows.
Speaker 3: So she was buried next to her favorite child, Carlton Mason,
Speaker 3: at Detroit's Woodmere Cemetery.
Speaker 2: So parawait. So parents do have favorite children.
Speaker 3: They do, That's what I've heard. So, Zaren, what does
Speaker 3: your ridiculous takeaway.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many ways I could go with this.
Speaker 2: I mean, going back from her starting with the P. T.
Speaker 2: Barnum era of America of like yeah, hokum and like
Speaker 2: you know, conning people and you know, never give a
Speaker 2: sucker and even break kind of idea approach to like
Speaker 2: the nineteen like teens of like we are a society.
Speaker 2: We're going to and I'll be scientific about our you know, policing,
Speaker 2: and like we're gonna like be more you know, upstanding
Speaker 2: about how we view our civilization. And so everybody's trying
Speaker 2: to change their view, and she really covers that whole arc.
Speaker 2: But I like the fact that she really did have
Speaker 2: that transformation. Yeah, like I thought the whole you know,
Speaker 2: crime doesn't pay it was going to be like, you know,
Speaker 2: a lark. It was like she was doing it to like,
Speaker 2: of course you want me to do this. Of course
Speaker 2: I can get.
Speaker 4: Rich of doing this.
Speaker 2: But it sounds like it really really did change her.
Speaker 2: So I like when we find these people who get
Speaker 2: to enjoy like a full crime life early on, lots
Speaker 2: of great characters. You know, she's robbing the like the Vanderbilts,
Speaker 2: you know, you get it all. But then at the
Speaker 2: same time, she gets to leave money to take care
Speaker 2: of the children of the incarcerated and convicted. It's like,
Speaker 2: so she's seeing the humanity in her crimes, even though
Speaker 2: initially obviously she did not, because she was focused on
Speaker 2: her humanity, like I'm hungry, I need that stuff, but
Speaker 2: I want your stuff. And then she's like, oh, and
Speaker 2: she's got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and
Speaker 2: she really did earn her nickname for herself. Yeah, she
Speaker 2: got to live a very rare existence at that time
Speaker 2: for a woman. I mean, like, my hat's off to Sophie, Like,
Speaker 2: what's yours, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3: Thank you for asking for the first time today in
Speaker 3: the last hour. I love that we've seen We've seen
Speaker 3: so many criminals who steal the money and burn through
Speaker 3: it and then they're always like one last heist, one
Speaker 3: big last thing. And the fact that she was investing
Speaker 3: throughout and realizing like once she gets to Detroit, she's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna start buying up this property and she's hiding
Speaker 3: stuff away and she's not like she's living a lavish
Speaker 3: lifestyle but not outside of her means. And so that
Speaker 3: planning and then as you're saying her ability then to
Speaker 3: pass it on is part of her redemption, to say,
Speaker 3: I'm going to help these people that kind of get
Speaker 3: forgotten by society. If you're the child of a context,
Speaker 3: they have anything to do with that, but you have
Speaker 3: to carry that. And yeah, and and the lack of
Speaker 3: resources and everything. So she really like honed in on
Speaker 3: that as the child of convict.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. She starts to see herself and others.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess it's also she goes and has
Speaker 3: enough life experience to realize, like it's.
Speaker 4: Not worth it.
Speaker 3: And I totally thought at first that, Okay, this is
Speaker 3: another con this is another scam.
Speaker 4: So but and I and she like.
Speaker 3: All the other con artists who are just so charming
Speaker 3: and convince people to do whatever they want, are fascinating
Speaker 3: to me. So I like she hits all the notes.
Speaker 3: She's the conn artist. She wrote a book, She's in
Speaker 3: our book now, Sophie wigs Court.
Speaker 4: Why why just exactly? And with that said, I need
Speaker 4: a talk back Dave.
Speaker 2: Oh god, I want it is time that we bring
Speaker 2: back the summer of dark.
Speaker 3: Elizabeth just saying have a wonderful day and thanks for
Speaker 3: the show.
Speaker 2: I've been saying, we all enjoy it, maybe rough for you.
Speaker 4: It's rough.
Speaker 3: It's rough to be dark Elizabeth, And I'm trying to
Speaker 3: fight it because like these days, you know, I could
Speaker 3: tip into that really quickly. Any of us could, any
Speaker 3: of you could be dark Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: Oh dude, I've been fighting the quicksand of the darkness.
Speaker 2: It's it's rough right there.
Speaker 3: I don't watch or listen or read the news right now.
Speaker 2: That's why I make them my mistake.
Speaker 4: It feels, yeah.
Speaker 3: I feel like an irresponsible citizen by tuning out, but
Speaker 3: otherwise we'd be into you know, van to black dark Elizabeth,
Speaker 3: and I just I focus on garden dogs, you know,
Speaker 3: wordle like I gotta I gotta keep it light for
Speaker 3: my sanity and the sake of everybody.
Speaker 2: A lot of the spiritual to just say, be up
Speaker 2: the world but not in the world. So you've been
Speaker 2: kind of doing that where you don't read the news
Speaker 2: the way I do, which is a big mistake, yeah,
Speaker 2: in terms of ruining your day. And then you can
Speaker 2: still be like with the people you don't need to
Speaker 2: be with, not imaginary, but you know, like people of
Speaker 2: the news. You can be with people in your life
Speaker 2: and in your community and in your neighborhood.
Speaker 4: And I can do dark, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3: It's just devilish in my own ways.
Speaker 2: Ah experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do that. You've inspired me. Talkbacker.
Speaker 4: That's it for today.
Speaker 3: You can find us online at Ridiculous Crime dot com.
Speaker 3: It's www dot Ridiculous Crime. You keep forgetting away.
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Speaker 3: Crime Pod Email Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com. Terry
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Speaker 3: It's free, Please reach out. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by Red
Speaker 3: Dave aka King of the ad Breaks aka Dave Houston.
Speaker 3: Our Ridiculous assistant is Terry Maldonado Fong. The fastest Pickpocket
Speaker 3: Nipselani Research is by Hortense Flora Bunda aka Marissa Brown
Speaker 3: and Count Bartholomew Gibberd aka Jabari Davis. The theme song
Speaker 3: is by Two Bits Sleigheist Team Thomas Lee and Travis Dutton.
Speaker 3: Post wardrobe is provided by Botany five hundred producer Dave
Speaker 3: Houstin's wardrobe is by mister Guy of Beverly Hills. Guest
Speaker 3: hair and makeup by Sparkleshot and mister Andre. Executive producers
Speaker 3: are fired Sing Sing correctional officers Ben Bolan and Noel
Speaker 3: browns QUI say it one more times Crime.
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