1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, a 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: major development in the case of three guys who go 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: fishing on a late night fishing trip, been friends since 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: high school, get massacred. We are learning not only did 5 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: the killers the executioners go out for McDonald's cheeseburgers after 6 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: the bloody massacre of three innocent guys, but the state 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: is now seeking the death penalty Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 8 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: It's actually very rare for the state to go forward 9 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: in a death penalty prosecution. What makes this case different 10 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: from all the others? Take a listen to this. The 11 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: parents of twenty seven year old Brandon Rollins, who was 12 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: shot and left bloodied in the roadway and pulled County 13 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: over the weekend. His father recalling his final moments because 14 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: he got the phone call from his son not long 15 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: after he was shot. Cyril Rawlins says the moment he 16 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: realized his son was calling, he knew it was bad news. 17 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: He don't never call my foam at all unlessie have 18 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: trebor or something would be going down. When he answered, 19 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: his fears were realized. He say, help Daddy, Help Daddy. 20 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: Cyril knew his twenty seven year old son, Brandon Rawlins, 21 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: was out fishing on Lake Streety with two friends, twenty 22 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: three year old Damian Tilman in thirty year old Kevin Springfield. 23 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: He rushed to the scene where he found his son 24 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: shot and bloodied in the roadway. Well, when I got there, 25 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: I didn't have a phone at all. I didn't know 26 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: what to do. He was tulkin and all that. As 27 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: a son, I got to leave you. I got to 28 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: go get some help. He was pretty bad, he was 29 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: too bloody. Can you imagine that father's anguish with me 30 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: an all star panel to break it down and put 31 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: it back together again. First of all, renowned California criminal 32 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: defense attorney Laura Uretsi in joining US psychologist Karen Start 33 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: joining me from Manhattan. You can find her at Karen 34 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: Stark dot com. Chris Buyer's former chief of Police John's Creek, 35 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: twenty five years on the force, now private investigator at 36 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: polygrapher at Chris Buyers Investigations and polygraph dot com. You 37 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: know him well, Doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for 38 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida, and Caputo lead news anchor 39 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: Orlando at w DBO. Think about it just this morning 40 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: everybody was getting ready for work in school, and I 41 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: heard my son, John David my call out, Mom, Mom. 42 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: I dropped everything I was doing. His voice sounds so alarmed, 43 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: and I ran and he went, mom, I dropped my drink. 44 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: Just that's such a small, trite example, Karen Stark Psychologists 45 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: joining me out of Manhattan. But there's something when when 46 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: your child calls you and you can tell something's wrong, 47 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: just like this dad. As soon as his son said Daddy, help, 48 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: he knew something was terribly wrong. He didn't even have 49 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: to hear the rest of the conversation. Nancy, that's the 50 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: part of the story that is most compelling, I think, 51 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: and horrific, because just like you, there is nothing the 52 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: bond between the parents and the child, or it hes 53 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: that's what you hope. And here is a story, really, 54 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: a stunningly disgusting, horrible story of a father who's with 55 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: his son and can do nothing to help him. And 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: think about it, it makes worse that he couldn't. He 57 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: didn't bring his phone, he rushed out, he forgot his phone. 58 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: I could just picture it, can't you, And he can't 59 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: find his son's phone and can do nothing to help him. 60 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: Oh my god, oh, I can hardly take it in. 61 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: You know, I want to go to Ray Caputo right now, 62 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: lead news anchor or Orlando News WDBO. Take me back 63 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: to that night. Who are the three victims, Damien Tillman, 64 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: Kevin Springfield, Brandon Rawlins. They had all been best buddies 65 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: for a long time, right, Yeah, they grew up together, 66 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: Nancy and Frost, Proof of Florida. That's this little community. 67 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: It's about an hour and a half south of Orlando's 68 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: really picturesque. It's it's this narrow striple in between two 69 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: lakes and three friends. You know, they're pretty much of 70 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: their twenties. Kevin was thirty. But they'd all known each 71 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: other and there was a small, tight knit community. So 72 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: it's a Friday night and they do what a lot 73 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: of people in Florida do, a little night fishing, you know, 74 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: summer night, beautiful July summer night. And they go and 75 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: they meet up and then this problem, this problem out 76 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: of nowhere. It's a very chance meeting, but it just 77 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: explodes into a big tragedy. You know, Chief Buyers. When 78 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: I heard the three were out late at night and 79 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: when they were shot, my first thought was, oh, nothing good. 80 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: Happens after midnight. They're at partying, they've been at some nightclub, 81 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 1: everybody's drunk, and this shooting happens. Not to blame the victim, 82 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: but I got it. That's what I first thought had 83 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: happened when I heard the late night outing. That's not 84 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: at all what happened, Chief, Buyers. You know, my twins 85 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: and my husband and I do a lot of camping 86 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: and rvying. One of my favorite things to do is 87 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: to go out star gays late at night. And I'm 88 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: just imagining these three guys out planning to be out 89 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: on the water under the stars. So there was nothing 90 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: nefarious at all, Chief about these guys being out night fishing. No, 91 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: not at all. I myself just drove them back to 92 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: Atlanta from camp in the last four days, and every 93 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: night when it got late and clear, I took a 94 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: walk to go gaze up at the stars. I mean, so, 95 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. And yeah, here's 96 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: three friends that are just going out having a good 97 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: time fishing and meet their demias. It's just it's absolutely sickening. 98 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: You know, so often when we go to court, you 99 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: have a victim that you know you got to take 100 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: your victims as you find them, but sometime you got 101 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: a little explaining to do to a jury. And I 102 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: always use Jackie the example of one of the first 103 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: agasalt robberies I had. It was a stripper dressed as 104 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: a cheerleader going at like four am from the strip 105 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: club to her car and she got robbed. Now, you know, 106 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: not me, but a lot of people will get into 107 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: judging her morally. I don't want anybody to judge me morally, 108 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: so I stay out of that business. That is not 109 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: my business. But these victims, chief buyers are scrubbed in sunshine. 110 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: You don't see that all the time in court, No 111 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: you don't. Yeah, I was thinking back as you were 112 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: talking to them many times that I've had victims that 113 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: were either a drug deal gone bad or you know, 114 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: home invasion where there was something in the house that 115 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: shouldn't be. But yeah, these victims, we're doing absolutely nothing wrong. 116 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. Now we find out about 117 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: a twist and a story and a convenience store taking 118 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: listen our friends at Fox thirteen. This is Jennifer Holton. 119 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: Cyril hopped back into his car driving to a convenience 120 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: store to call nine one one and then rush back 121 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: to the scene. He says that's when he heard his 122 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: son's phone ringing inside of his truck to see we 123 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: could bug It was cod on Bud and I got 124 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: the phone and it was his mom. I said, please, Daddy, 125 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: how sound is gone? He did, but all three men 126 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: were dead before ems arrived. We still don't have arrest 127 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: at this moment, Sheriff Judd saying Monday, investigators had received 128 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: well over a hundred tips, but they're hoping now that 129 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: an increased reward makes a difference. There's a reward of 130 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars at this moment in time just for 131 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: information that leads to the arrest of these horrific criminals, 132 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: and arrest that Cyril says could bring justice for his family. 133 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: That was my only son. I'll never have a grand 134 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: another grand child, nothing, my lfe is gone. Trying to 135 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: nail down the sequence of events that night, let us 136 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: hear from the horse's mouth is the Pooh County Sheriff 137 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: share of a greedy ja. Listen. His father, who was 138 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: home in bed asleep, heard the call from his son, 139 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: knew where they were fishing, jumped up, got dressed, drove 140 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: here immediately. He's about ten minutes away in the frost 141 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: Proof community. When he arrived, he saw this horrific scene 142 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: of where all these young men had been shot up. 143 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: In Brandon's father's excitement to run to and help his son, 144 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: he forgot his cell phone at home. So now he's 145 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: out in the middle as you can see, of no 146 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: place without any communications. So he hopped back in his 147 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: vehicle and went to Sunray, which is on Highway twenty seven. 148 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: Ran into the convenience store. They all know each other 149 00:09:55,040 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: in this area. My son needs help. Seventeen year old 150 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: young lady who's the daughter of the convenience store attended 151 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: at that time, jumps in the vehicle with Brandon's father 152 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: and they come back to the scene. Crime Stories with 153 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about stunning development that 154 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: has gone down in the last hours in the case 155 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: of three young guys friends who go night fishing down 156 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: in Florida and end up through no fault of their own, 157 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: being ambushed and massacred. But why we also now know 158 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: the announcement has just been made the state will seek 159 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: the death penalty on the alleged killers who reportedly after 160 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: the massacre of three guys out fishing, go and top 161 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: it off with a dozen cheeseburgers. Obviously, mass murder did 162 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: not affect their appetite. Law Arretsen, you're there now, criminal 163 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: defense attorney, How are you going to explain that to 164 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: the jury. But if I'm thinking the position that I'm 165 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: helping or I'm defending these guys, our position would be 166 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: that this was a sudden quarrel, something that happened at 167 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: the moment they argued, and it's more in the voluntary 168 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: manslaughter range. But of course, if I'm looking at it 169 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: from a different perspective, I would say having that kindem 170 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: an appetite after this kind of a massacre is not 171 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: going to help the defendants in this case. I mean, 172 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: it's almost like they were celebrating. They didn't care that 173 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: three people were dead, and they'd left them there dying. 174 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: So I can just see that as a horrific fact. 175 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 1: Not helping. That really not helping, TJ. We're getting these 176 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: guys seemingly celebrated after a massacre Dan in Florida by 177 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: heading to McDonald's to get ten McDonald's cheese. You know 178 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: you're right, Laura, And there's something about it, no matter 179 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: what the facts were reportedly, the cops say they've got 180 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: the shooters, the shooters, the fact that they're out scarf 181 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: and now cheeseburgers after I mean, how do you explain 182 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: the cheeseburgers. Yeah, that's I'm with you on that. That's 183 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: a tough one to explain. But again, I mean, if 184 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: we get that's something that the jury is going to 185 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: hate about the individuals, but then they would have to 186 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 1: put bottom line as though the bottom line is that 187 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: the jury is gonna have to look at the facts 188 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: and decide if this was something that was planned, premeditated, 189 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: or if this was something that it was supposed to 190 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: be just a discussion or maybe in our argument and 191 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: it became heated and the decision to kill happened as 192 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: a result of that. It wasn't premeditated. There wasn't no 193 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, lawyer, rats, Yeah, I assume in California 194 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: you abide by the law as it is recognized across 195 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: the rest of the United States, including Hawaii and Alaska, 196 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: and that is, premeditation can be formed in the blink 197 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: of an eye or the twinkling of an instant. The 198 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: time it takes to raise the gun and pull the triggers. 199 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: That's enough time for premeditation. You're right, we don't need 200 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: a lot of time for premeditation. But you have also 201 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: a very strong argument here that this was an argument, 202 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: It was a heated argument, it was a sudden quarrel, 203 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: and it turned into a feeling or a massacre. Unfortunately. 204 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: Let's see what we can find out. That's an argument 205 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: that din't. Yeah, that's an art. You gotta make some 206 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: kind of argument. You can't just line up at the 207 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: death chamber and say, Okay, a defense attorney is going 208 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: to get in here and fight till the finish, regardless 209 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: of what we may think about their argument. Take a 210 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: listen to Jenni Norman at ABC. Around ten pm Friday, 211 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: twenty three year old Damien Tillman arrived to the remote 212 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: area to go fishing with his friends. Officials saying as 213 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: he was being murdered, thirty year old Kevin Springfield and 214 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old Brandon Rollins showed up and were shot. 215 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: Rollins making that phone call. When he arrived, he saw 216 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: this horrific scene of where all these young men had 217 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: been shot up. What the murders also didn't count On 218 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: is Brandon had the opportunity to talk to his dad 219 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: before he died. The sheriff saying the victim's father, in 220 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: a panic, left his cell phone at home and upon 221 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: finding the gruesome scene and his son still clinging to life, 222 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: leaving his son at the scene and driving to a 223 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: convenience store to call nine one one. By the time 224 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: help arrived, all three men were dead. But now, you know, 225 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: you may say in your mind, why what ensued? How 226 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: did the locate these three guys in this remote area 227 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: fishing at night? To Ray Kiputo, lead news anchor or 228 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: Orlando Morning News, debdb Oh, tell me again about the 229 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: location where they're doing the fishing. It's Lake streeting, Nancy. 230 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of remote. It's not far from you know, 231 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: the downtown frost Proof area. But because that, you know, 232 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: the city itself is in the town is remote in itself. 233 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: You know, Lake streety is off the beaten path. There 234 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: isn't a lot around. It actually is a dirt road 235 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: that you have to take to get there. So this 236 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: was very remote and the time of night when there 237 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of people around to begin with. Then 238 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: it seems to me that. There's no other way around it. 239 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: Chris Buyer's former police chief. Chief, There's no way around 240 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: it other than they must have followed them there. Now, 241 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: to me, that makes them the aggressor. Oh, absolutely, Yeah. 242 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: When you talk about premeditation, they followed them there. I mean, 243 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: there's no you're talking about. It can happen in an instant. 244 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how far it is from from where 245 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: they were followed, but the fact that they got in 246 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: a car to purposely follow there, Yeah, well I got 247 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: a pretty good idea. Chief, take a listen to share 248 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: for Grady. Nine fifty six. In the evening, Damien is 249 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: checking out of the store with his product. He is 250 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: followed out of the store by TJ, who checks out 251 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: about fifteen seconds later, and he's also followed by his 252 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: brother and his girlfriend. At ten o six pm. Only 253 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: ten minutes later, Brandon, who is now in the white 254 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: pickup truck, frantically calls his dad and says, help and 255 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: I've already talked to you. How dad ran to the 256 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: scene only to find the massacre. At the scene, Only 257 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: ten minutes passed from the time the three victims, Damien Tillman, 258 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: Kevin Springfield, Brandon Rollins leave a Dollar General and also 259 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: there t J. Wiggins, Mary Whittemore, and Robert Wiggins. That's 260 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: no coincidence, but what could have happened and the Dollar General? 261 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: Listen to WFLA news reporter Stacy to Silva, everybody wanted 262 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: to know was this random or were these men targeted? 263 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: The sheriff said today that a chance encounter at a 264 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: Frostproof Dollar General led to a massacre. Three people are 265 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: now in custody. They have solved the case. Sheriff Grady 266 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: Judd offering answers about a doomed Polk County fishing trip. 267 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: This is the who directly did the damage. His name's 268 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Tony Wiggins. He's an oist TJ. The sheriff says. Friday night, Wiggins, 269 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: his girlfriend Mary Whitmore, and his brother Robert went to 270 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: this Dollar General in Frostproof. In front of them in 271 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: line to check out was Damian Tilman, one of the victims. 272 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: Video shows Tilman and Wiggins appearing to have a cordial conversation. 273 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: Tilman mentions to the clerk, He's meeting up with Kevin 274 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: Springfield to go fishing prime stories with Nancy Grace. We 275 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: are talking about the brutal massacre of three young guys, 276 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: best friends from the get go all the way back 277 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: to high school. They go out night flot fishing in 278 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: a remote area. While they're fishing, they are attacked and 279 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: massacred by According to police Wiggins rap sheet, as long 280 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: as I seventy five Mary Whitmore, the girlfriend, the brother 281 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: Robert Wiggins, a dollar general where no eel words were exchanged, 282 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: that one of the victims happens to mention we're going 283 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: night fishing. Is that all? It took? A chance? Encounter 284 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: ends like this. Take a listen to this. TJ, someone 285 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: who his criminal history should shock your conscience. It does mine. 286 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: TJ started to be arrested when he was twelve years old. 287 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: He is currently only twenty six years old. TJ has 288 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: two hundred and thirty felony criminal charges in his arrest history. 289 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: I didn't stutter. He had two hundred and thir charges 290 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: in his arrest history, fifteen convictions and two times to 291 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: state prison at only twenty six. There's a picture of 292 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: Tony Wiggins. Here's the real Tony Wiggins. He's a FuG, 293 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: he's a criminal, He's pure evil in the flesh. To you, 294 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: Ray Kaputo WDBA. Why was this guy with two hundred 295 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: and thirty entries on his rap sheet out walking free 296 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: at what happened at the Dollar General? If anything? Well, Nancy, 297 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: why t J. Wiggins is on on the street is 298 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: a million dollar question because he absolutely shouldn't have been. 299 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: The guy was troubled, Please stop, could have, would have, 300 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: should have. I wouldna shoot myself in the foot if 301 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: I hear that again. He should have been in jail. Okay, 302 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: go ahead, not your fault, You're just a messenger, right. Well, 303 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: it really was an innocuus encounter because Kevin was he 304 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: uh sorry, Brandon was in a Dollar General and he's 305 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: talking to the clerk, you know, a little bit of 306 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: back and forth, and they're behind him TJ. And in 307 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: the rest of the game, and they hear him say 308 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: that he's going fishing. Now. Meanwhile, TJ has he has 309 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: a thing for one of the friends. He has a 310 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: thing for Kevin Springfield, who he knows Brandon is gonna 311 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: be with. Because and this is this is where all 312 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: this happened. Over a truck. TJ thought that Kevin stole 313 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: a truck and wait wait wait wait wait wait wait 314 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: wait when you talk about defendants such as t. J. Wiggins, 315 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: the one with the two hundred and thirty entries on 316 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: his rap sheet by their first name. I mean, are 317 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: you guys friends, are you expecting him over for dinner 318 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: anytime soon? Okay, So you've got Tony t J. Wiggins, 319 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: age twenty six, the brother William Robert Wiggins, age twenty one, 320 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: and the girlfriend Mary witten Moore, age twenty seven. They're 321 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: the defendants. So you're telling me defendant Tony t J. 322 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: Wiggins age twenty six found the guy that taken his truck. Yep. 323 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: He thought that Kevin Springfield had not only stolen the truck, 324 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,719 Speaker 1: but he had sold an engine, and he was upset. 325 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: He was out to find Kevin, and he'd been looking 326 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: for him, and this was his chance. He thought that 327 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: the game was going to be over at this Lake 328 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: Street to do a little night fishing, and he thought 329 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: it would have been an opportunity to confront Kevin and 330 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: see if he possibly could get the engine to his 331 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: truck back. Now we don't even know to this point 332 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: of that even happened or not, but TJ. Certainly thought 333 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: that it did. So in his mind, He's found the 334 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: guy that took the engine out of his truck. Yes, 335 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: and so he follows them, and he somehow cajoles the 336 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: other two to go with him. They follow these guys 337 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: to a remote area near frost Proof, Florida, and the 338 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: bullets began to fly out. An update for your law, 339 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: you're at sea in criminal defense turning out of California. 340 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: It was a dozen McDonald's cheese and two mac chickens. 341 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: Ten cheese, two mc chickens. So they actually thought through 342 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: their menu and they decide that's what they would get. 343 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: They are no more worried about the three dead bodies 344 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: than the man in the moon. I can just see 345 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: the prosecutors starting the opening statement and the clothing statement 346 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: was that. I could see them just flashing I'm starting 347 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: with the McDonald's menu and going through it. I only 348 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: wish that that was on. I'm sure they do have 349 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: the McDonald's video. I'd love to hear them ordering. And 350 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: you know why. I know you may think I'm making 351 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: a big deal out of it, but Karen start, you're 352 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: the shrink. It's going to show they're very calm frame 353 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: of mind after a triple homicide, a bloody crime, saying 354 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: they leave for the dad A Brandon Watt rollins to 355 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: come upon. Well, there's no doubt Nancy death. We're talking 356 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: about psychopaths. So here's the thing that's so hard for 357 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: people to understand. The psychopath says what he or she 358 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: wants without anxiety, any regret or regard for the suffering 359 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: of others. So if you think about that, it makes 360 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: perfect sense that they're able to have this meal and 361 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoy it because as far as they are concerned, 362 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: this is just another day. They're hungry and it's time 363 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: to eat a whole bunch of food. To medical examiner 364 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: for the entire state of Florida, that is not easy 365 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: to doctor Tim Gallagher. Doctor Gallagher, what do we know, 366 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: if anything, about the injuries of these three victims. Well, 367 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: we know that each of the victims suffered multiple gunshot wounds. 368 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: Some of the gunshot wounds to their body, to their 369 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: chest that had gone through their lungs and through their heart, 370 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: and there were some gunshot wounds reported through their head. 371 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: You know, So these were these were wounds that were 372 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: this was an assault that was meant to kill them. 373 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: It wasn't meant to send a warning or anything like that. 374 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: They hit center body mass, and they were looking to 375 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: kill these people without any regard for them living afterwards. 376 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher. It's my understanding, and please correct me if 377 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: I'm wrong. There is likely no way to determine which 378 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: of the shots was that a stomach shot, a leg shot, 379 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: at arm shot were first. That that's correct, Nancy, It's 380 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: very difficult to determine that. The best that we can 381 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: do is say that they occurred at about the same time. 382 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: I guess the only way you may be able to 383 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: tell that. And because they were so I believe they were. 384 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: They were so quick in such quick succession. For instance, 385 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: if you had shot the person in the head and 386 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: then a period of seconds forty five sixty seconds had passed, 387 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: you shot them again, the follow up shots may not 388 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: have bled because well, right, it can be true or 389 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: cannot be true. Just because the bullet destroys the brain 390 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: does not mean that the heart immediately stops beating. It 391 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: can continue to beat for up to a minute afterwards, 392 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: still pumping blood to the rest of the body. So 393 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: know that you just taught me something new. I love that, 394 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher. And an adult male average weight, there's about 395 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: five quarts of blood. Little ragallon and it takes you 396 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: have to lose about about two quarts or so before 397 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: you're rendered unconscious, and then your organs begin to suffer. 398 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: So I'm thinking of a milk jug, a gallon milk jug. 399 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: They've got about that much blood in our bodies. We 400 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: do it a little bit more too, a little bit more, Okay. 401 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,479 Speaker 1: Do you think with all of these multiple gunshot wounds, 402 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: these three victims sustained, do you think they bled out 403 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: or would they cause of death? Well, I guess it 404 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: would be the gunshot to the head. Obviously that was 405 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: a right. Well, that was a question I would have 406 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: prepared for trial, but then not asked because the lung 407 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: is a gunshot to the lungs to the tour So 408 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: typically what happens is the lungs fill up with blood 409 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: and the victim actually drowned in their own blood. Crime 410 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace guys. In the last hours, a 411 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: major announcement has been made in the case of three 412 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: buddies that go night fishing down off the Florida coast. 413 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: They're just out having a good time. There's no drugs, 414 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: there's no drinking, there's nothing nefarious going on. They've known 415 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: each other since high school. This is their idea of 416 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: a good time night fishing. It was not meant to be. 417 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: Enter three predators think the savannah and the gazelle are 418 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: drinking at the pool of water, and in the distance 419 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: you see hyena circling up on them, and they wait 420 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: and pounce. These three guys had no idea what was 421 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: about to happen. And now the announcement the death penalty 422 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: will be sought. To Rayka Puto, lead news anchor W DBO, Ray, 423 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: what is the mode of DP in Florida? I assume 424 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: the needle the electrature, right. I believe that it is 425 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: the needle, as I recall there's a guy in Florida 426 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: by the nickname Tiny and its head caught on fire 427 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: during an execution via electric chair, and then they quickly 428 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: switched to the needle. Is that right needle? I'm not 429 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: going to even show you how she's acting in out. Okay, 430 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: you could have just mouthed at Jackie, but the needle. 431 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: So do we know, Ray Caputer, why this case? Of 432 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: course it qualified? Hold on, Ray, let me throw to 433 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: our lawyer, renowned criminal defense attorney joining us out of California. Hey, Laura. 434 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: If I'm ever in criminal trouble, God help me in California. 435 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm calling you. I have your cell phone number, just 436 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: so you know that, Laura. California also has the death penalty, 437 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: although it's very rarely used. In fact, I think needs 438 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: to put a moratorium on it. But there has to 439 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: be aggravating circumstances for the state to decide they're going 440 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: to seek the death penalty. Explain right, I mean, and 441 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: this is I mean, it's a case is appropriate for 442 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: a death penalty. I'm looking at it from the prosecutor 443 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: prosecution's point of view, this would be one. I mean, 444 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about a massacre. Three guys are fishing trip 445 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: and are all killed. I understand one of them had 446 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 1: an issue with Tony T. J. Wiggins, but what was 447 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: the problem with the other two? And we're dealing with 448 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: someone who's got and you talk about a long rap sheet. 449 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: We call ten convictions ten charges sometimes long grade. I 450 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: bet you don't have any charges. I bet you don't 451 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: have a single infraction on your wrap shat, I bet 452 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: you don't even have a rap sheet, right, So ten 453 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: is kind of stretching even one conviction. To me, it 454 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: is one too many exactly. But we're talking about two 455 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty charges. That's the length of a block probably, 456 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: so we're en fifteen convictions too Senson State Prison. We're 457 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: talking about a hardscore criminal who's on the streets, and 458 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: that's not a very sympathetic figure. And it's you know, 459 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: and I can see from the prosecution's point of view 460 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: an argument that is cold blooded shooting three people and 461 00:30:54,280 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: then going ahead after that having ten jam Manti Donald's chicken, 462 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: that in most juristactions, the aggravating circumstances are very similar. 463 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: And tell me this is true. We're not, for California, 464 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: for instance, mass murder and that really just means more 465 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: than one body you've got that's an aggravating circumstance that 466 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: would justify seeking the death penalty. And this is not 467 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: do you agree or disagree with the death penalty. It's 468 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: about the fact they are seeking the death penalty in 469 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: this case. And Jackie has now corrected us both you 470 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: have a choice in Florida, you can get the chair 471 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: or the needle. But mass murder lying in wait, which 472 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: shows a cool clear head at the time of our 473 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: murder murder for higher monetary pecuniary interest if you're in 474 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: it from money. Let's see um in the commission of 475 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: certain felonies such as rape, aggravated assault, murdering a political 476 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: figure or a cop automatically, that can be grounds to 477 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: seek the death. Those are particularly heinous, which I think 478 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: is a catchall, because any murder is heinous, but that 479 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: can be used as an underlying aggravating circumstance. And when 480 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: the state announces they're going to seek the DP, they outline, 481 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: they lay out what the aggravating circumstance is. What do 482 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: we really know about the alleged perps? Take listen to 483 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: Dave Matt at crime Online. When detectives located the suspects, 484 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: they were living in a family compound of camper trailers 485 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: not far from the murder scene. They were living off 486 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: the grid with no running water, no electricity, using generators 487 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: for power. T J. Wiggins and his girlfriend live in 488 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: one of the travel trailers. His brother had another. With 489 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: a search warrant, police found two SKS rifles, two Mossberg shotguns, 490 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: and ammunition for both in a gun safe belonging to T. J. Wiggins. 491 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: The ammunition found there, police say was the same ammunition 492 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: fired from the gun and the murders a Smith and 493 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: Wesson handgun. Tracing the suspects movement after the killings, police 494 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: say the three suspects drove to McDonald's, ordered ten double 495 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: cheeseburgers to mc chicken sandwiches, and then went home to eat. 496 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: The next morning, Robert Wiggins took the truck he was 497 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: driving to a car wash to get the road clay off. 498 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: They thought to get the road clay off, Chief Chris Buyers, 499 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: what does that tell you? And you made the perfect 500 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: analogy a few minutes ago with them a Hyaena being 501 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: in wait because we were talking about just animals here 502 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: and showing that their mindset after they commit this this 503 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: heinous crumb, going to eat afterwards, and then getting the 504 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: clay off of the truck, it all shows that they 505 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: did exactly what they set out to do. This wasn't 506 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: an argument gone bad. They set out to murder this 507 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: person and these three individuals and to cover up their 508 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: crime afterwards. Absolutely too. Doctor Tim Gallagher, a medical exam er, 509 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: state floor that clay that they thought they were washing 510 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: off their vehicle is very important. Why. Oh, it's very 511 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: important because each part of the country has a different 512 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: composition of dirt or material are that the roads are 513 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: made from. So you could actually trace the exact clay 514 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: to the exact location where where the crime was committed 515 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: by doing a chemical analysis of the clay. If the 516 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: clay on the truck matches the clay at the scene, 517 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: then that truck was definitely at the scene. Absolutely, You're 518 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: absolutely right, And I know that when you are conducting autopsies, 519 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: very carefully keep and secure and preserve for instance, clothing, shoes, 520 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: any residue or clay or dirt you thought on the 521 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: body for forensic proof, just like what we're talking about. 522 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: And now another specter as to motive raises its head 523 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: to take a listen to Jeff Patterson a WLA eight. 524 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: Jessica Steenson cannot hold back her tears or her anger 525 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: when talking about her boyfriend Brandon Rawlins murder who we 526 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: never knew they would never do this. Brandon Rollins father 527 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: came to the scene of his son's murder and held 528 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: him as he died. Today, the family watched his sheriff 529 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: Grady Judd, explained how Brandon Rollins, Kevin Springfield, and David 530 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: Tilman were killed and who he believes is responsible. Cyril 531 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: Rawlins had nothing good to say about accused killer t J. Wiggins. 532 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: It's way day rays. You know what, they followed the 533 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: father and mother. That's the way they're gonna ray. Brandon's 534 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: mother says she's known t J. Wiggins for most of 535 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: his life. He was always a rough kid, always in trouble. 536 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: Dottie Peyton tells aid, on your side, she's suspected from 537 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: the beginning. Who is responsible? I had suspicion means no 538 00:35:53,120 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: one my son this was there. The family strongly spects 539 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: drugs are to blame their drug heads. They could have 540 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: been high out their mind. Who knows. Just here and 541 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: the parents crying like that, looking for answers. So we 542 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: know for a fact, and I don't think this will 543 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: be prejudicial at trial and it will come into evidence. 544 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: And these three were quote living off the grid, What 545 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: does that mean to you, Karen Start who lives off 546 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: the grid? Living up the grid, Nancy means that they 547 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:35,479 Speaker 1: were not using regular electricity. They were, you know, just 548 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: setting things up without having to pay any money. So 549 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: they're really outlaws. They're really deciding that they're going to 550 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: have their own little community and not be a part 551 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: of the way society normally functions. Some people will call 552 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: that anti social. The drugs if they were high out 553 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: of their minds. Voluntary use of drugs are alcohol not 554 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: a defense. I want you to hear mckennaking talking to 555 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: a family w FTS ABC Action. The death penty is 556 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: definitely number one priority. The family of Brandon Rowlands, one 557 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,919 Speaker 1: of the victims, watching the hearing from outside the South 558 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: County jail. His father, the first person on scene after 559 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: the shootings, replaying Brandon's final moments over and over in 560 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: his head. He could call anybody now, I'm on one 561 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: or anything, but they did. This is called me. He 562 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: knows anything's gonna be here. His mother, describing Brandon as 563 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: an out going mama's boy. When I go back to work, 564 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get that phone call on the 565 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: way home. Mom, I'm off work, Come pick me up. 566 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: I'm not going to add a chance no more to 567 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: get the pick him up, So it's gonna be very hard, 568 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: she says. The three victims grew up together, spending much 569 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: of their time on the lake. His girlfriend Jessica often 570 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: tagged along too well. I would dude, just her five 571 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: more minutes with him on a boat trying to fight 572 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: a catch of fish. That's one of the things she'll 573 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: miss the most. Take your time with your family and 574 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: love every single second with them. Amen. Wait Wait as 575 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: just as sudden falls Nancy Gray's Crime Story, signing off 576 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:15,919 Speaker 1: goodbye Frien