WEBVTT - 12. Manhunt! 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.640 not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:07.600 sexual assault. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.119 His violence potential to me is unlimited. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.240 Anybody that could slip their own children's throats and then 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:15.280 burn them up. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:17.080 He's a definite danger to society. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.560 That's former FBI agent Bob Caldwell speaking to a reporter 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.479 twenty years ago. What he said then remains true today. 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.800 If alive, Robert Fischer is in extreme danger not only 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.559 to society, but most critically, if he has a new 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.080 family to them. It's therefore imperative that we find Fisher, 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.519 not only to bring him to justice, but to avoid 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:43.000 further bloodshed. If that seems impossible, it's not. In nineteen 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.559 seventy one, John List killed his family and vanished. By 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.840 nineteen eighty six, at the fifteen year mark, many people 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.880 thought he was dead. Newspapers ran headlines like the perfect crime, 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.640 and it was the perfect crime until it wasn't. Investigators 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.080 never gave up. In nineteen eighty six, a prosecutor told 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.040 the Associated Press quote, when you have no evidence to 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.080 the contrary, you must assume he's still alive. Basically, what 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.800 we have here, he said, is a Casper milk toast 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.600 who stepped out of his role, murdered his family, and 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.680 then stepped back into the role and disappeared. A month later, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.559 Inspired by the case, Hollywood released The Stepfather, a movie 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.440 about a man who kills his family, assumes a new identity, 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.959 and marries a widow with a fifteen year old daughter. 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.120 Oh, that guy had felt who had killed his whole 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:31.720 family cut him up with knives. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:34.280 Maybe they disappointed him. 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.600 When asked about John List, the screenwriter said, my first 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.240 guess is the real life man killed himself in such 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.919 a way that he was never found. My second guess 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:44.959 is that the movie would be fairly close to what 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:49.000 might have transpired. Meaningless escaped, changed his name and started 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:49.720 a new life. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:50.800 Who am I here? 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:54.960 You're a very bad girl. 0:01:57.920 --> 0:01:58.720 The Stepfather? 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.720 I believe he meaning List is alive. Retired Westfield police 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.040 chief James Rand said, fifteen years is a long time. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.560 The prosecutor said, but it's not an impossible task. We'll 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.760 continue to track him and someday who knows it sounds 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.880 so desperate, so empty, five ten, twenty three years later 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.200 to say, no, really, guys, we'll get him. Someday, But 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.200 someday came America's Most Wanted featured the case. An ex 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.079 neighbor phoned in a lead, and on June first, nineteen 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.400 eighty nine, police arrested List. He was living under a 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:36.720 new name with a new wife in a new city. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.560 So yes, this is possible, but not without your help. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.440 You know what solved the List case, publicity? You know 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.440 who solved it? An audience member with Fisher. That could 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:57.280 be you from iHeartRadio and neon thirty three. I'm John 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.040 Walzac and this is missing in Arizona, the story of 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.359 a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.840 blowing up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.480 Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher, and I 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:19.440 need your help. Let's start with a profile of Fisher, 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.320 not a biography, only stuff that can help catch him. 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.160 Fisher was born on April thirteenth, nineteen sixty one. As 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.640 of this recording, he's sixty three. He's six feet tall. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.880 When he disappeared, he weighed one hundred and ninety pounds. 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.960 Obviously that could have changed, but he cared a lot 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:37.760 about his weight. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:38.560 So I doubt. 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:42.000 He's emaciated or obese, probably still in the one hundred 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.400 and eighty to two hundred and ten pound range. He 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.120 had light brown, almost blonde hair by now it's likely 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.920 gray or mixed, though he might die it to stave 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.600 off aging. He has blue eyes and a gold tooth 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.320 his upper left first by cuspid, the tooth right behind 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.480 your canines, your fangs. He might still have it, he 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:06.240 might not. Dentists, hygienists, oral surgeons, pay attention. Does this 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.520 match any of your patients. Fisher also has a scar 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.640 on his lower back midline of the lumbo sacral level 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:17.200 from surgery doctors, surgeons, nurses, Pay attention. Does this match 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.800 any of your patients. Fisher has small feet in the 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.039 eight to ten range, likely a nine point five. He 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.599 keeps a clean cut, neat appearance. He probably has short 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.240 hair and little to no facial hair, maybe a short beard. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:38.480 He's casual jeans, T shirts, flannels, boots, sneakers, baseball caps, bandanas, sunglasses. 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.680 He suffers from back and knee pain. He might be 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.719 dependent on, if not addicted to, opioids. John and Mary 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.120 Beth Rodin Fisher family friends tell me their son remembers 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.679 Robert having a quote weird toe. That might mean something, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.000 it might not. It could have been a one time 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.680 fungal infection, or he could have a deformed toe. Their 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:03.160 son was young is murky. Fisher rarely drank, but when 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.000 he did, he liked bourbon. He constantly chewed tobacco, winter 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.840 green Copenhagen. He might still chew or smoke or vape. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.640 He liked to hunt, fish, camp. He liked pickup trucks, 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:18.520 country music, guns. He wasn't super political in the nineties, 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.960 but he could be today. And Ammo box in the 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:22.960 rubble of his house had a sticker on it for 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.840 the NRA. Another had a sticker that read control Criminals, 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.480 not Guns. Fisher wasn't a big sports guy, just the 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.560 casual Diamondbacks and Raiders fan. He liked dogs, not cats. 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:39.159 He enjoyed nature centric TV shows vicarious adventure, but he 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.440 stayed close to home. He didn't have a passport. He 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:46.680 only traveled internationally while in the Navy. Many people speculate 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.919 that he's now hiding overseas. I doubt it. He's a 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.080 creature of habit. He sticks to what he knows to 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.279 be safe. Though I tried to find a list of 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.160 places he visited while in the Navy. To see which 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.480 international spots he might know just a bit, I filed 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.040 a record's request and found out that he served from 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.680 nineteen seventy nine to eighty two aboard the USS below Wood, 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.960 an amphibious assault ship based in San Diego. During that period, 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.920 he visited Victoria, British Columbia, and Mast Lawn, Mexico. The 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.240 Navy later deployed him further abroad for six months. On 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.280 April twenty first, nineteen eighty one, the bellow Wood rescued 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.400 one hundred and thirty three Vietnamese refugees, including fifty three children, 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.360 from leaking boats in the South China Sea. So I 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.200 knew he was in or near Asia, But no matter 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.560 what I did, I couldn't find a list of ports 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.480 of call, not in his navy file, not online. Finally, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.880 our producer, Hannah Rose Snyder, tracked down a copy on 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.040 microfilm at a government facility near DC. To access it, 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.760 we hired a researcher who obtained this list. 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:53.560 San Diego, Pearl Harbor, Okinawa, Japan, po Hung, South Korea, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:07:01.120 Hong Kong, Subit Bay, the Philippines, Singapore, Colombo, Sri Lanka, Diego, Garcia, Freemantle, Australia, 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.080 Pateya Beach, Thailand. 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.400 And the waters off Lanslown, Australia. Though it's unclear whether 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.760 or not he went ashore. In theory, Fisher could be 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.680 in any of these places, but I doubt it. He's 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.240 likely still in the US, somewhere out west, maybe a 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.320 remote corner of Arizona like Lake Havasu or southern California, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.040 which he knew well, or Las Vegas where he could 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.120 easily blend in, or even Phoenix. In two thousand and one, 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.320 he had a chance to escape to Mexico. Americans could 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.200 cross the border without a passport until two thousand and nine, 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.240 the day the house exploded, He had enough time to 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.880 flee to the border only three hours away, but he didn't. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.920 In fact, he didn't even flee the state, at least 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.920 not immediately. He stayed in Arizona. Fisher was a creature 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.600 of habit one key reason I think he's still in 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.520 the US. Also, he was racist, specifically against Mexicans. Several 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.320 people tell me that he made anti Mexican remarks. Not 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.120 to mention, he didn't speak Spanish or any other foreign language. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.080 Just English. Finally, one of his friends, a former coworker 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.160 who doesn't want to be named, revealed something new, something 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.200 intriguing about Fisher's back pain. 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.200 When I would notice it was associated with like weather, 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.440 so with like arthritis type symptoms. And in Arizona we've 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.400 got the monsoons. So in the morning he would be 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.480 perfectly fine. And you meet up with him like around lunchtime, 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.800 and you know, making a comment like, oh, but a 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.240 storm must becoming because my back's starting to hurt, that 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.120 type of thing. And then I know in the winter time, 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.680 when it was cooler or colder, his back seemed to 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.040 hurn him more. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:38.960 So if he did flee somewhere and you don't see 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:43.080 it being somewhere stormy or cold. No, this is fascinating. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.920 Cold weather and drops in barometric pressure caused Robert pain. 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.160 But he was fine in the heat. He liked the heat. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.800 I think it would be much harder for him to 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:58.160 live a comfortable life in a cold climate. 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.880 Let's keep building a prof What about Fisher's personality. It's 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.320 unclear if he was ever diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.560 likely not, but he certainly had OCD style tendencies He 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.320 kept everything extremely clean. He disliked disorder. He liked routine. 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.760 He wanted to eat dinner every night at five pm sharp. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.000 He generally followed the rules and appeared to be pro 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.960 law enforcement. On a hunting trip with a friend, he 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.600 was pulled over twice by Saint Trooper's. Both times he 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.960 remained courteous and respectful. Robert was a minimalist. He didn't 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.200 like clutter. A friend and former neighbor, Paul, tells me 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.320 that inside the Fisher house, one room didn't even have furniture. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.240 According to Mary's friend Kim Davidson, Robert had strict rules 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:44.199 about home decor. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:46.960 Even when you went back into the bedrooms, there wasn't 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.840 a lot of personality there. It was just spare bones. 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.320 Why do you think that is well? 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.720 Come to find out, it was because Robert wouldn't allow 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.320 a well to be painted a color. He wouldn't allow 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.520 the kids to hang up things in their bedroom. 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.319 He didn't even let Mary put up quilts that her 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:01.880 mom made. 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.800 The quails were quite beautiful, and they just sat up there, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:06.160 pulled it on the. 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.280 Shelf because Robert wouldn't let her hang them up. Correct 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.360 Another one of Mary's friends who doesn't want to be named, 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.120 tells me the same thing. She often stayed with the 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.319 Fishers while visiting from out of town. Quote, they didn't 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.199 put bedspreads on their beds. It was just like a sheet. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.680 It always kind of looked like they were just moving in. 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:25.880 And I'd be like, why don't you guys like get 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.320 a quilt? The mom knit, she was super crafty, Like, 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.040 why don't we just do something a little decorative, And 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.240 Mary's like, oh, Robert doesn't like that because he thinks 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.679 it gets dusty or dirty or something. Robert seemed to 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.520 have a thing about dirt and germs. He was also 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.320 very particular about his food. According to a police report, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.520 he never ate at fast food restaurants, and quote in 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.400 regular restaurants was so extreme with questions about food and 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.120 its preparation he would embarrass friends and family. One time, 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.120 Robert and a friend had launched at a truck stop 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.480 near Tucson. Robert gave the waitress quote such a hard time, 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.160 wanting to know what items were being put into the food, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.400 how the food was prepared. He was also a cheap skate. 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.240 He refused to pay for air conditioning in blazing Arizona. 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.839 John and Mary Beth Rodin tell me that at work, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.520 Robert would save dirty hemostats tools that clamp onto blood 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:19.880 vessels to prevent bleeding. 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.240 They'd throw them all out when they were done with them, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.520 and he'd collect them, and he'd have like twenty or 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.040 thirty of them, and he'd take them to Don's sports 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.240 shop and sell them or trade them for merchandise because 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.679 the fly fishermen like them because they're really good at 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.199 ripping flies. It's like a bent or taking hooks out 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:36.680 of fish. 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.120 And he would rescue them from work. 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:39.679 Yeah, he'd take them out of the garbage. 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.600 Probably after proceedures this, he supposedly throw them all away. 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.960 I asked the Rodents if media portrayals of Robert have 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.319 been accurate, not entirely. They say he was not some maladjusted, 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:57.760 asocial loaner. He could be quiet, soft spoken, but also congenial, funny, sarcastic. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:11:59.960 He didn't like to be by himself. He can go 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.319 for a day or two, but I don't think he 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:01.760 could ever. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.120 Very gregarious, love talking to people. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:05.960 I don't think he could live by himself for an 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:06.920 extended period of time. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:08.640 So this idea that he would run off and be 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.120 a hermit and just want to be alone. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.080 I don't think so he had to have an audience. 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.760 This lines up with what Mary's mom told police. Robert 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.080 was very outgoing. She said he had many friends or 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.360 at least friendly acquaintances in both his personal life and 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.600 at work. He got along well with patients too. One 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.240 colleague said, quote older ladies, he was very, very delicate 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.960 with them. Another said he was quote very sociable. One 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.040 time he treated a female Phoenix police officer who was 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.120 preparing to donate a kidney to a family member. Robert 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.319 quote really got into that, and not in a sexual way, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.080 just chatting. He did it with men too, quote Whenever 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.440 it was somebody that liked to hunt, had guns, or 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.679 had anything to do with the law, he would be 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.960 there holding that groin for about twenty minutes, and normally 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.120 we do it in about ten minutes. It was a 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.000 standing joke. A cop asked what he meant by quote 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.800 holding groins, coworker, hold pressure so they don't bleed. 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:04.280 Cop. 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.079 Okay. So in other words, he favored people that were 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:11.240 out doorsy, oh yeah, and he liked law enforcement, oh yeah. However, 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.440 another colleague said Robert could be aloof quote. He'd come 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.360 up to you in the cafeteria. We'd be having a conversation. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.600 He'd sit down, he'd bring something up, we'd start talking 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.640 about it, and then he'd just get up and leave. 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.360 He could be creepy too. On a hunting trip, he 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.160 toyed with a friend. He went down one trail, the 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.880 friend another. Both had walkie talkies. Robert told the friend 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.720 where to meet, exact spot, exact time. The friend considered 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.600 it a game. Halfway up the trail, Robert's voice crackle through. 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.679 I can see you, he said. The friend looked up 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.440 through binoculars. He spotted Robert on a mountaintop. I've been 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.359 watching you the entire time. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:49.840 He said. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.840 While hunting, Robert also used varmint calls. He vocally mimicked 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.480 small injured animals trying to lure predators so he could 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.000 shoot them, and he played tapes with the sounds of 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.080 dying rabbits. Not abnormal many hunters do this, but given 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.640 the later context, creepy. When he spoke to his hunting 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:09.959 buddy Jim Rodin, he. 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.000 Liked to get quiet, like like like a tail off, 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.080 and be quiet, you know, even though I sir, because I'm. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.520 Kind of crazy, and when he wasn't mimicking dying animals, 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:20.920 he tried. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.640 To mimic a little bit of a redneck drawl, like 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:24.960 a good old boy outdoorsman. Tried to do that, tried 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:26.560 to sound a little bit Western cowboy. 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:27.440 Do you think it was real? 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:33.280 That was probably something that was rehearsed. That became a 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.640 part of him because he loved that good old boy 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:45.760 Americana military, redneck outdoorsman, Copenhagen, tobacco fishing. He liked that 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.040 kind of Cabella's past pro shop, though it wasn't there 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.480 at the time. Yeah, he loved all that, you know, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.640 had his own little fishing boat and pickup truck. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.240 Robert often discussed religion with Jim, a pastor. People have 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.720 different opinions about how spiritual Robert really was and how 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.880 much was just for show. I don't know, but he 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.640 read the Bible at work, attended church, and certainly felt guilt. 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.720 In nineteen ninety nine when he cheated on Mary, he 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.560 could have remained silent. Instead, he confessed he appeared to 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.760 feel genuine remorse, which would indicate a savable soul, not 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:52.120 a psychopath with an evil, irredeemable core. If Robert chooses 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.200 not to surrender, and yes, I know he likely won't. 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.080 How can we find him? Let me split this into 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:03.160 three parts number one and passwords number two, his face 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:08.080 number three, his voice jeans. Let's say Robert has a 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.600 new family. Let's say he has kids after twenty three years. 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.240 He could even have adult children. They don't know who 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:18.120 he is. They use a commercial DNA service like ancestry 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.080 or twenty three and me this is a surefire way 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.360 to find Robert. It would take luck and cooperation from 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:30.040 his family. His first family, mom, sisters, nieces, nephews, someone. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.400 I don't know if they've used any of these services. 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.160 If not, I encourage them to asap. If they do, 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.960 and Robert has a new family and his new kids 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:43.160 upload their DNA, boom, we found him. Law enforcement is 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.640 limited here by privacy laws and corporate regulations. Investigators can 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.520 compare samples of Robert's parents' DNA to open source databases 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.320 like jedmatch. They should do this asap, but the best 0:16:55.360 --> 0:17:00.800 option is for Robert's family to help voluntarily passwords. Our 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.919 researcher Paul Gemperlin had a brilliant idea. If investigators have 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.719 a list of passwords Robert used before the murders, email, banking, 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.080 et cetera. They can compare them to databases of passwords 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.040 that leaked during the past twenty three years. Let's say 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.200 Robert used a highly unique password, for example, Robert nineteen 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.359 sixty one loves Scottsdale. Law enforcement can scan databases to 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.200 see if it shows up anywhere after April two thousand 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.200 and one. If so, it might indicate that Robert did 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.000 escape and start a new life. Best case, it might 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.080 even point us to where he went. It's a Hail Mary, sure, 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.439 But the thing about hail Mary's sometimes. 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.159 They work his face. 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.359 If you've seen any photo of Robert, it's likely the 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.560 photo from a nineteen ninety nine family portrait, the one 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.760 everyone uses from Wikipedia to the FBI. In it, Mary 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.520 Brittany and Bobby smile. Robert purses his lips. I get 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.160 why it became the key photo in this case. It's 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.560 high resolution, taken less than two years before the murders. 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.760 I've only been able to track down twenty eight photos 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.200 of Robert as an adult, including this one. The problem 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.359 is it seems off, like it doesn't represent him. Well, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.720 I'm sure you have photos like this yes, it's you, 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.320 but it doesn't really look like you. Maybe it's the angle, 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.399 or the lighting, or the lens or the editing. I 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.600 don't know. I never met Robert, but people who did 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.400 agree with me, including Miss Honey, Britney's teacher, the second 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.520 to last person to see and speak with Robert the 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:30.440 night of the murders. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.199 That picture is not how I remember him, and it 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:38.800 hardly recognize him from that picture. So to me, I 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.800 feel like we've been going around now for twenty years 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:46.479 with an incorrect simulation and incorrect image and persona of 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.840 this person that we're looking for, which has worked to 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:49.760 his advantage. 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.439 Miss Honey is talking about two images, first, the nineteen 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.280 ninety nine photo, second the ace progressed image based on 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.640 that photo produced by the FBI in twenty sixteen. The 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.359 FBI images, how can I say this nicely, not the best. 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.000 It looks like they took the nineteen ninety nine photo, 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.920 threw on some mister potato head facial hair and said 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.480 this could be what he looks like today. When I 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.560 show it to one person who knew Robert, they literally laugh. 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.639 The other two photos the FBI uses on its wanted 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.240 poster aren't great either. One shows Robert with crazy eyes, 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.080 another makes him look like he has three chins. I'm 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.879 not trying to be needlessly antagonistic here. It's not the 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.160 FBI's fault that Robert blew up his house, incinerating most 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.720 photos of him. But if the images were using to 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.400 find him are at best off and at worst laughable, 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.800 we have a problem. I knew this early on, so 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.160 one of my main goals was to find new photos 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.080 of him. I ask every person I interview if they 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.480 have any I start with twenty six photos. I end 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.639 with twenty eight. That's how tough it is. I find 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.199 two new photos, only two, both given to me by 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.520 John and Mary Beth Rodin. One is dated August sixteenth, 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.200 nineteen nine ninety seven, taken on a camping trip at 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.359 Holly Lake. Robert stands in front of a white pickup truck, 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:09.600 wearing a gray T shirt tucked into jeans, a baseball cap, sunglasses, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.639 and a watch. Bobby Junior, a month shy of seven, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.720 sits on the hood, his legs dangling off the side, 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.760 in a white shirt, red shorts, a blue hat, and 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:23.040 little white sneakers. Both face the camera. It's sunny. The 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.560 other is dated December ninth, nineteen ninety nine, meaning it's 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.280 now the most recent photo of Robert known to exist, 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.680 a picture, to my knowledge, never obtained by law enforcement. 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.280 In it, he stands on a dirt road next to 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.200 a different truck, wearing a long sleeved blue shirt tucked 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:42.639 into jeans, boots, a white baseball cap, and sunglasses. It 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.840 was taken in the Apache Sickgreaves National Forest during a 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.760 hunt four Christmas trees. There's a tree in the pickup bed. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.239 Robert turns its head looks right at the camera. In 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.640 addition to these photos, the Rodents give me a few 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.879 new videos of Robert. One in particular, taken in nineteen 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.000 ninety four, is import It provides a clear shot of 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.639 Robert's smiling. You see his gold tooth. I decide to 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.000 take all images, every single photo and high quality videos 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.800 still and work with a forensic artist to create a 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.840 new age progressed image to see what Robert might look 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.119 like today. In fact, I work with three world renowned 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.440 artists at the same time. None are aware the others 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.159 are also working on this case. I want to conduct 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.520 an experiment to see, when given the same source material, 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.040 what each of them can produce. It's the first time 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:33.480 this has ever been done. Three talented artists on the 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:37.040 same case at the same time, starting with. 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.320 Lois Gibson and I got into this because someone murdered me. 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:41.360 Well, I didn't die. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:43.879 That he almost murdered me for fun really got on 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:44.480 my nerves. 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:46.240 I wanted justice. 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.120 In nineteen seventy one, a man forced his way into 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.800 Lois's apartment, choked her for twenty five minutes, and sexually 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:57.200 assaulted her. She nearly died by chance. Six weeks later, 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.840 while driving down a nearby street, Lois recognized her assailant 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.400 as police arrested him for another crime. She later moved 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.760