Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may
Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses
Speaker 1: sexual assault.
Speaker 2: His violence potential to me is unlimited.
Speaker 3: Anybody that could slip their own children's throats and then
Speaker 3: burn them up.
Speaker 2: He's a definite danger to society.
Speaker 1: That's former FBI agent Bob Caldwell speaking to a reporter
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. What he said then remains true today.
Speaker 1: If alive, Robert Fischer is in extreme danger not only
Speaker 1: to society, but most critically, if he has a new
Speaker 1: family to them. It's therefore imperative that we find Fisher,
Speaker 1: not only to bring him to justice, but to avoid
Speaker 1: further bloodshed. If that seems impossible, it's not. In nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy one, John List killed his family and vanished. By
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, at the fifteen year mark, many people
Speaker 1: thought he was dead. Newspapers ran headlines like the perfect crime,
Speaker 1: and it was the perfect crime until it wasn't. Investigators
Speaker 1: never gave up. In nineteen eighty six, a prosecutor told
Speaker 1: the Associated Press quote, when you have no evidence to
Speaker 1: the contrary, you must assume he's still alive. Basically, what
Speaker 1: we have here, he said, is a Casper milk toast
Speaker 1: who stepped out of his role, murdered his family, and
Speaker 1: then stepped back into the role and disappeared. A month later,
Speaker 1: Inspired by the case, Hollywood released The Stepfather, a movie
Speaker 1: about a man who kills his family, assumes a new identity,
Speaker 1: and marries a widow with a fifteen year old daughter.
Speaker 4: Oh, that guy had felt who had killed his whole
Speaker 4: family cut him up with knives.
Speaker 2: Maybe they disappointed him.
Speaker 1: When asked about John List, the screenwriter said, my first
Speaker 1: guess is the real life man killed himself in such
Speaker 1: a way that he was never found. My second guess
Speaker 1: is that the movie would be fairly close to what
Speaker 1: might have transpired. Meaningless escaped, changed his name and started
Speaker 1: a new life.
Speaker 5: Who am I here?
Speaker 2: You're a very bad girl.
Speaker 6: The Stepfather?
Speaker 1: I believe he meaning List is alive. Retired Westfield police
Speaker 1: chief James Rand said, fifteen years is a long time.
Speaker 1: The prosecutor said, but it's not an impossible task. We'll
Speaker 1: continue to track him and someday who knows it sounds
Speaker 1: so desperate, so empty, five ten, twenty three years later
Speaker 1: to say, no, really, guys, we'll get him. Someday, But
Speaker 1: someday came America's Most Wanted featured the case. An ex
Speaker 1: neighbor phoned in a lead, and on June first, nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty nine, police arrested List. He was living under a
Speaker 1: new name with a new wife in a new city.
Speaker 1: So yes, this is possible, but not without your help.
Speaker 1: You know what solved the List case, publicity? You know
Speaker 1: who solved it? An audience member with Fisher. That could
Speaker 1: be you from iHeartRadio and neon thirty three. I'm John
Speaker 1: Walzac and this is missing in Arizona, the story of
Speaker 1: a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids,
Speaker 1: blowing up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness.
Speaker 1: Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher, and I
Speaker 1: need your help. Let's start with a profile of Fisher,
Speaker 1: not a biography, only stuff that can help catch him.
Speaker 1: Fisher was born on April thirteenth, nineteen sixty one. As
Speaker 1: of this recording, he's sixty three. He's six feet tall.
Speaker 1: When he disappeared, he weighed one hundred and ninety pounds.
Speaker 1: Obviously that could have changed, but he cared a lot
Speaker 1: about his weight.
Speaker 5: So I doubt.
Speaker 1: He's emaciated or obese, probably still in the one hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty to two hundred and ten pound range. He
Speaker 1: had light brown, almost blonde hair by now it's likely
Speaker 1: gray or mixed, though he might die it to stave
Speaker 1: off aging. He has blue eyes and a gold tooth
Speaker 1: his upper left first by cuspid, the tooth right behind
Speaker 1: your canines, your fangs. He might still have it, he
Speaker 1: might not. Dentists, hygienists, oral surgeons, pay attention. Does this
Speaker 1: match any of your patients. Fisher also has a scar
Speaker 1: on his lower back midline of the lumbo sacral level
Speaker 1: from surgery doctors, surgeons, nurses, Pay attention. Does this match
Speaker 1: any of your patients. Fisher has small feet in the
Speaker 1: eight to ten range, likely a nine point five. He
Speaker 1: keeps a clean cut, neat appearance. He probably has short
Speaker 1: hair and little to no facial hair, maybe a short beard.
Speaker 1: He's casual jeans, T shirts, flannels, boots, sneakers, baseball caps, bandanas, sunglasses.
Speaker 1: He suffers from back and knee pain. He might be
Speaker 1: dependent on, if not addicted to, opioids. John and Mary
Speaker 1: Beth Rodin Fisher family friends tell me their son remembers
Speaker 1: Robert having a quote weird toe. That might mean something,
Speaker 1: it might not. It could have been a one time
Speaker 1: fungal infection, or he could have a deformed toe. Their
Speaker 1: son was young is murky. Fisher rarely drank, but when
Speaker 1: he did, he liked bourbon. He constantly chewed tobacco, winter
Speaker 1: green Copenhagen. He might still chew or smoke or vape.
Speaker 1: He liked to hunt, fish, camp. He liked pickup trucks,
Speaker 1: country music, guns. He wasn't super political in the nineties,
Speaker 1: but he could be today. And Ammo box in the
Speaker 1: rubble of his house had a sticker on it for
Speaker 1: the NRA. Another had a sticker that read control Criminals,
Speaker 1: not Guns. Fisher wasn't a big sports guy, just the
Speaker 1: casual Diamondbacks and Raiders fan. He liked dogs, not cats.
Speaker 1: He enjoyed nature centric TV shows vicarious adventure, but he
Speaker 1: stayed close to home. He didn't have a passport. He
Speaker 1: only traveled internationally while in the Navy. Many people speculate
Speaker 1: that he's now hiding overseas. I doubt it. He's a
Speaker 1: creature of habit. He sticks to what he knows to
Speaker 1: be safe. Though I tried to find a list of
Speaker 1: places he visited while in the Navy. To see which
Speaker 1: international spots he might know just a bit, I filed
Speaker 1: a record's request and found out that he served from
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine to eighty two aboard the USS below Wood,
Speaker 1: an amphibious assault ship based in San Diego. During that period,
Speaker 1: he visited Victoria, British Columbia, and Mast Lawn, Mexico. The
Speaker 1: Navy later deployed him further abroad for six months. On
Speaker 1: April twenty first, nineteen eighty one, the bellow Wood rescued
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty three Vietnamese refugees, including fifty three children,
Speaker 1: from leaking boats in the South China Sea. So I
Speaker 1: knew he was in or near Asia, But no matter
Speaker 1: what I did, I couldn't find a list of ports
Speaker 1: of call, not in his navy file, not online. Finally,
Speaker 1: our producer, Hannah Rose Snyder, tracked down a copy on
Speaker 1: microfilm at a government facility near DC. To access it,
Speaker 1: we hired a researcher who obtained this list.
Speaker 7: San Diego, Pearl Harbor, Okinawa, Japan, po Hung, South Korea,
Speaker 7: Hong Kong, Subit Bay, the Philippines, Singapore, Colombo, Sri Lanka, Diego, Garcia, Freemantle, Australia,
Speaker 7: Pateya Beach, Thailand.
Speaker 1: And the waters off Lanslown, Australia. Though it's unclear whether
Speaker 1: or not he went ashore. In theory, Fisher could be
Speaker 1: in any of these places, but I doubt it. He's
Speaker 1: likely still in the US, somewhere out west, maybe a
Speaker 1: remote corner of Arizona like Lake Havasu or southern California,
Speaker 1: which he knew well, or Las Vegas where he could
Speaker 1: easily blend in, or even Phoenix. In two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: he had a chance to escape to Mexico. Americans could
Speaker 1: cross the border without a passport until two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: the day the house exploded, He had enough time to
Speaker 1: flee to the border only three hours away, but he didn't.
Speaker 1: In fact, he didn't even flee the state, at least
Speaker 1: not immediately. He stayed in Arizona. Fisher was a creature
Speaker 1: of habit one key reason I think he's still in
Speaker 1: the US. Also, he was racist, specifically against Mexicans. Several
Speaker 1: people tell me that he made anti Mexican remarks. Not
Speaker 1: to mention, he didn't speak Spanish or any other foreign language.
Speaker 1: Just English. Finally, one of his friends, a former coworker
Speaker 1: who doesn't want to be named, revealed something new, something
Speaker 1: intriguing about Fisher's back pain.
Speaker 8: When I would notice it was associated with like weather,
Speaker 8: so with like arthritis type symptoms. And in Arizona we've
Speaker 8: got the monsoons. So in the morning he would be
Speaker 8: perfectly fine. And you meet up with him like around lunchtime,
Speaker 8: and you know, making a comment like, oh, but a
Speaker 8: storm must becoming because my back's starting to hurt, that
Speaker 8: type of thing. And then I know in the winter time,
Speaker 8: when it was cooler or colder, his back seemed to
Speaker 8: hurn him more.
Speaker 1: So if he did flee somewhere and you don't see
Speaker 1: it being somewhere stormy or cold. No, this is fascinating.
Speaker 1: Cold weather and drops in barometric pressure caused Robert pain.
Speaker 1: But he was fine in the heat. He liked the heat.
Speaker 8: I think it would be much harder for him to
Speaker 8: live a comfortable life in a cold climate.
Speaker 1: Let's keep building a prof What about Fisher's personality. It's
Speaker 1: unclear if he was ever diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder,
Speaker 1: likely not, but he certainly had OCD style tendencies He
Speaker 1: kept everything extremely clean. He disliked disorder. He liked routine.
Speaker 1: He wanted to eat dinner every night at five pm sharp.
Speaker 1: He generally followed the rules and appeared to be pro
Speaker 1: law enforcement. On a hunting trip with a friend, he
Speaker 1: was pulled over twice by Saint Trooper's. Both times he
Speaker 1: remained courteous and respectful. Robert was a minimalist. He didn't
Speaker 1: like clutter. A friend and former neighbor, Paul, tells me
Speaker 1: that inside the Fisher house, one room didn't even have furniture.
Speaker 1: According to Mary's friend Kim Davidson, Robert had strict rules
Speaker 1: about home decor.
Speaker 9: Even when you went back into the bedrooms, there wasn't
Speaker 9: a lot of personality there. It was just spare bones.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is well?
Speaker 9: Come to find out, it was because Robert wouldn't allow
Speaker 9: a well to be painted a color. He wouldn't allow
Speaker 9: the kids to hang up things in their bedroom.
Speaker 1: He didn't even let Mary put up quilts that her
Speaker 1: mom made.
Speaker 9: The quails were quite beautiful, and they just sat up there,
Speaker 9: pulled it on the.
Speaker 1: Shelf because Robert wouldn't let her hang them up. Correct
Speaker 1: Another one of Mary's friends who doesn't want to be named,
Speaker 1: tells me the same thing. She often stayed with the
Speaker 1: Fishers while visiting from out of town. Quote, they didn't
Speaker 1: put bedspreads on their beds. It was just like a sheet.
Speaker 1: It always kind of looked like they were just moving in.
Speaker 1: And I'd be like, why don't you guys like get
Speaker 1: a quilt? The mom knit, she was super crafty, Like,
Speaker 1: why don't we just do something a little decorative, And
Speaker 1: Mary's like, oh, Robert doesn't like that because he thinks
Speaker 1: it gets dusty or dirty or something. Robert seemed to
Speaker 1: have a thing about dirt and germs. He was also
Speaker 1: very particular about his food. According to a police report,
Speaker 1: he never ate at fast food restaurants, and quote in
Speaker 1: regular restaurants was so extreme with questions about food and
Speaker 1: its preparation he would embarrass friends and family. One time,
Speaker 1: Robert and a friend had launched at a truck stop
Speaker 1: near Tucson. Robert gave the waitress quote such a hard time,
Speaker 1: wanting to know what items were being put into the food,
Speaker 1: how the food was prepared. He was also a cheap skate.
Speaker 1: He refused to pay for air conditioning in blazing Arizona.
Speaker 1: John and Mary Beth Rodin tell me that at work,
Speaker 1: Robert would save dirty hemostats tools that clamp onto blood
Speaker 1: vessels to prevent bleeding.
Speaker 10: They'd throw them all out when they were done with them,
Speaker 10: and he'd collect them, and he'd have like twenty or
Speaker 10: thirty of them, and he'd take them to Don's sports
Speaker 10: shop and sell them or trade them for merchandise because
Speaker 10: the fly fishermen like them because they're really good at
Speaker 10: ripping flies. It's like a bent or taking hooks out
Speaker 10: of fish.
Speaker 1: And he would rescue them from work.
Speaker 11: Yeah, he'd take them out of the garbage.
Speaker 10: Probably after proceedures this, he supposedly throw them all away.
Speaker 1: I asked the Rodents if media portrayals of Robert have
Speaker 1: been accurate, not entirely. They say he was not some maladjusted,
Speaker 1: asocial loaner. He could be quiet, soft spoken, but also congenial, funny, sarcastic.
Speaker 9: He didn't like to be by himself. He can go
Speaker 9: for a day or two, but I don't think he
Speaker 9: could ever.
Speaker 10: Very gregarious, love talking to people.
Speaker 7: I don't think he could live by himself for an
Speaker 7: extended period of time.
Speaker 1: So this idea that he would run off and be
Speaker 1: a hermit and just want to be alone.
Speaker 12: I don't think so he had to have an audience.
Speaker 1: This lines up with what Mary's mom told police. Robert
Speaker 1: was very outgoing. She said he had many friends or
Speaker 1: at least friendly acquaintances in both his personal life and
Speaker 1: at work. He got along well with patients too. One
Speaker 1: colleague said, quote older ladies, he was very, very delicate
Speaker 1: with them. Another said he was quote very sociable. One
Speaker 1: time he treated a female Phoenix police officer who was
Speaker 1: preparing to donate a kidney to a family member. Robert
Speaker 1: quote really got into that, and not in a sexual way,
Speaker 1: just chatting. He did it with men too, quote Whenever
Speaker 1: it was somebody that liked to hunt, had guns, or
Speaker 1: had anything to do with the law, he would be
Speaker 1: there holding that groin for about twenty minutes, and normally
Speaker 1: we do it in about ten minutes. It was a
Speaker 1: standing joke. A cop asked what he meant by quote
Speaker 1: holding groins, coworker, hold pressure so they don't bleed.
Speaker 2: Cop.
Speaker 1: Okay. So in other words, he favored people that were
Speaker 1: out doorsy, oh yeah, and he liked law enforcement, oh yeah. However,
Speaker 1: another colleague said Robert could be aloof quote. He'd come
Speaker 1: up to you in the cafeteria. We'd be having a conversation.
Speaker 1: He'd sit down, he'd bring something up, we'd start talking
Speaker 1: about it, and then he'd just get up and leave.
Speaker 1: He could be creepy too. On a hunting trip, he
Speaker 1: toyed with a friend. He went down one trail, the
Speaker 1: friend another. Both had walkie talkies. Robert told the friend
Speaker 1: where to meet, exact spot, exact time. The friend considered
Speaker 1: it a game. Halfway up the trail, Robert's voice crackle through.
Speaker 1: I can see you, he said. The friend looked up
Speaker 1: through binoculars. He spotted Robert on a mountaintop. I've been
Speaker 1: watching you the entire time.
Speaker 5: He said.
Speaker 1: While hunting, Robert also used varmint calls. He vocally mimicked
Speaker 1: small injured animals trying to lure predators so he could
Speaker 1: shoot them, and he played tapes with the sounds of
Speaker 1: dying rabbits. Not abnormal many hunters do this, but given
Speaker 1: the later context, creepy. When he spoke to his hunting
Speaker 1: buddy Jim Rodin, he.
Speaker 13: Liked to get quiet, like like like a tail off,
Speaker 13: and be quiet, you know, even though I sir, because I'm.
Speaker 1: Kind of crazy, and when he wasn't mimicking dying animals,
Speaker 1: he tried.
Speaker 13: To mimic a little bit of a redneck drawl, like
Speaker 13: a good old boy outdoorsman. Tried to do that, tried
Speaker 13: to sound a little bit Western cowboy.
Speaker 1: Do you think it was real?
Speaker 13: That was probably something that was rehearsed. That became a
Speaker 13: part of him because he loved that good old boy
Speaker 13: Americana military, redneck outdoorsman, Copenhagen, tobacco fishing. He liked that
Speaker 13: kind of Cabella's past pro shop, though it wasn't there
Speaker 13: at the time. Yeah, he loved all that, you know,
Speaker 13: had his own little fishing boat and pickup truck.
Speaker 1: Robert often discussed religion with Jim, a pastor. People have
Speaker 1: different opinions about how spiritual Robert really was and how
Speaker 1: much was just for show. I don't know, but he
Speaker 1: read the Bible at work, attended church, and certainly felt guilt.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine when he cheated on Mary, he
Speaker 1: could have remained silent. Instead, he confessed he appeared to
Speaker 1: feel genuine remorse, which would indicate a savable soul, not
Speaker 1: a psychopath with an evil, irredeemable core. If Robert chooses
Speaker 1: not to surrender, and yes, I know he likely won't.
Speaker 1: How can we find him? Let me split this into
Speaker 1: three parts number one and passwords number two, his face
Speaker 1: number three, his voice jeans. Let's say Robert has a
Speaker 1: new family. Let's say he has kids after twenty three years.
Speaker 1: He could even have adult children. They don't know who
Speaker 1: he is. They use a commercial DNA service like ancestry
Speaker 1: or twenty three and me this is a surefire way
Speaker 1: to find Robert. It would take luck and cooperation from
Speaker 1: his family. His first family, mom, sisters, nieces, nephews, someone.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they've used any of these services.
Speaker 1: If not, I encourage them to asap. If they do,
Speaker 1: and Robert has a new family and his new kids
Speaker 1: upload their DNA, boom, we found him. Law enforcement is
Speaker 1: limited here by privacy laws and corporate regulations. Investigators can
Speaker 1: compare samples of Robert's parents' DNA to open source databases
Speaker 1: like jedmatch. They should do this asap, but the best
Speaker 1: option is for Robert's family to help voluntarily passwords. Our
Speaker 1: researcher Paul Gemperlin had a brilliant idea. If investigators have
Speaker 1: a list of passwords Robert used before the murders, email, banking,
Speaker 1: et cetera. They can compare them to databases of passwords
Speaker 1: that leaked during the past twenty three years. Let's say
Speaker 1: Robert used a highly unique password, for example, Robert nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty one loves Scottsdale. Law enforcement can scan databases to
Speaker 1: see if it shows up anywhere after April two thousand
Speaker 1: and one. If so, it might indicate that Robert did
Speaker 1: escape and start a new life. Best case, it might
Speaker 1: even point us to where he went. It's a Hail Mary, sure,
Speaker 1: But the thing about hail Mary's sometimes.
Speaker 5: They work his face.
Speaker 1: If you've seen any photo of Robert, it's likely the
Speaker 1: photo from a nineteen ninety nine family portrait, the one
Speaker 1: everyone uses from Wikipedia to the FBI. In it, Mary
Speaker 1: Brittany and Bobby smile. Robert purses his lips. I get
Speaker 1: why it became the key photo in this case. It's
Speaker 1: high resolution, taken less than two years before the murders.
Speaker 1: I've only been able to track down twenty eight photos
Speaker 1: of Robert as an adult, including this one. The problem
Speaker 1: is it seems off, like it doesn't represent him. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have photos like this yes, it's you,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really look like you. Maybe it's the angle,
Speaker 1: or the lighting, or the lens or the editing. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I never met Robert, but people who did
Speaker 1: agree with me, including Miss Honey, Britney's teacher, the second
Speaker 1: to last person to see and speak with Robert the
Speaker 1: night of the murders.
Speaker 12: That picture is not how I remember him, and it
Speaker 12: hardly recognize him from that picture. So to me, I
Speaker 12: feel like we've been going around now for twenty years
Speaker 12: with an incorrect simulation and incorrect image and persona of
Speaker 12: this person that we're looking for, which has worked to
Speaker 12: his advantage.
Speaker 1: Miss Honey is talking about two images, first, the nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine photo, second the ace progressed image based on
Speaker 1: that photo produced by the FBI in twenty sixteen. The
Speaker 1: FBI images, how can I say this nicely, not the best.
Speaker 1: It looks like they took the nineteen ninety nine photo,
Speaker 1: threw on some mister potato head facial hair and said
Speaker 1: this could be what he looks like today. When I
Speaker 1: show it to one person who knew Robert, they literally laugh.
Speaker 1: The other two photos the FBI uses on its wanted
Speaker 1: poster aren't great either. One shows Robert with crazy eyes,
Speaker 1: another makes him look like he has three chins. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to be needlessly antagonistic here. It's not the
Speaker 1: FBI's fault that Robert blew up his house, incinerating most
Speaker 1: photos of him. But if the images were using to
Speaker 1: find him are at best off and at worst laughable,
Speaker 1: we have a problem. I knew this early on, so
Speaker 1: one of my main goals was to find new photos
Speaker 1: of him. I ask every person I interview if they
Speaker 1: have any I start with twenty six photos. I end
Speaker 1: with twenty eight. That's how tough it is. I find
Speaker 1: two new photos, only two, both given to me by
Speaker 1: John and Mary Beth Rodin. One is dated August sixteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen nine ninety seven, taken on a camping trip at
Speaker 1: Holly Lake. Robert stands in front of a white pickup truck,
Speaker 1: wearing a gray T shirt tucked into jeans, a baseball cap, sunglasses,
Speaker 1: and a watch. Bobby Junior, a month shy of seven,
Speaker 1: sits on the hood, his legs dangling off the side,
Speaker 1: in a white shirt, red shorts, a blue hat, and
Speaker 1: little white sneakers. Both face the camera. It's sunny. The
Speaker 1: other is dated December ninth, nineteen ninety nine, meaning it's
Speaker 1: now the most recent photo of Robert known to exist,
Speaker 1: a picture, to my knowledge, never obtained by law enforcement.
Speaker 1: In it, he stands on a dirt road next to
Speaker 1: a different truck, wearing a long sleeved blue shirt tucked
Speaker 1: into jeans, boots, a white baseball cap, and sunglasses. It
Speaker 1: was taken in the Apache Sickgreaves National Forest during a
Speaker 1: hunt four Christmas trees. There's a tree in the pickup bed.
Speaker 1: Robert turns its head looks right at the camera. In
Speaker 1: addition to these photos, the Rodents give me a few
Speaker 1: new videos of Robert. One in particular, taken in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety four, is import It provides a clear shot of
Speaker 1: Robert's smiling. You see his gold tooth. I decide to
Speaker 1: take all images, every single photo and high quality videos
Speaker 1: still and work with a forensic artist to create a
Speaker 1: new age progressed image to see what Robert might look
Speaker 1: like today. In fact, I work with three world renowned
Speaker 1: artists at the same time. None are aware the others
Speaker 1: are also working on this case. I want to conduct
Speaker 1: an experiment to see, when given the same source material,
Speaker 1: what each of them can produce. It's the first time
Speaker 1: this has ever been done. Three talented artists on the
Speaker 1: same case at the same time, starting with.
Speaker 14: Lois Gibson and I got into this because someone murdered me.
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't die.
Speaker 9: That he almost murdered me for fun really got on
Speaker 9: my nerves.
Speaker 2: I wanted justice.
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, a man forced his way into
Speaker 1: Lois's apartment, choked her for twenty five minutes, and sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted her. She nearly died by chance. Six weeks later,
Speaker 1: while driving down a nearby street, Lois recognized her assailant
Speaker 1: as police arrested him for another crime. She later moved
Speaker 1: to Texas, got a fine Arts degree, painted three thousand
Speaker 1: portraits on the San Antonio Riverwalk, and became a forensic
Speaker 1: artist in Houston.
Speaker 5: Next we have Hill Zmam.
Speaker 1: Not only is gill an artist, he's also an author.
Speaker 1: Last year, he published a book called The Mindful Interview
Speaker 1: Method Retrieving cognitive Evidence. Gill view's memory as easily tainted
Speaker 1: evidence that should be carefully uncovered, like a fingerprint, a fiber,
Speaker 1: a drop of blood, Gather it mindfully without altering it.
Speaker 1: He strongly opposes, for example, the use of reference images.
Speaker 15: To simulate the memory. Hey, was his nose like this,
Speaker 15: eyes like this, and so forth. I believe that once
Speaker 15: you do that, you're contaminating someone's memory and they cannot
Speaker 15: distinguish between what they actually remembered to what you're actually
Speaker 15: showing them.
Speaker 1: He's talking about sketches based on witness memory, not age
Speaker 1: progressed images based on photos. But still it's a smart observation. Finally,
Speaker 1: we have Michael W. Streed, who we worked with previously
Speaker 1: on season two Missing on nine to eleven with eights
Speaker 1: progressed images.
Speaker 4: The goal is not to have people praise your art
Speaker 4: and tell you what a great artist you are. The
Speaker 4: actual object is to catch this murderous suspect.
Speaker 1: This is a critical point. These artists are not trying
Speaker 1: to craft award winning photorealistic images of how missing fugitives
Speaker 1: definitely look today, because they don't know how they look today.
Speaker 1: An image should be just familiar enough to make someone
Speaker 1: do a double take and say, hey, that kind of
Speaker 1: looks like my neighbor Joe or my friend Susie. You
Speaker 1: don't want to gamble everything on a very particular vision
Speaker 1: that ends up being wrong. Michael Gill and Lois are
Speaker 1: all talented. They have different methods blending science and art.
Speaker 1: Until we find Robert Fisher, we won't know who did
Speaker 1: the best job. That said, I had to choose a
Speaker 1: winner the main image for our new wanted poster. I
Speaker 1: chose Michael. I think the most important thing to capture
Speaker 1: here Fisher's eyes, your smile. Can you speak to me
Speaker 1: about how you did that in the end, because I
Speaker 1: think you really nailed it, you know.
Speaker 4: The post picture. I looked at the famous picture you
Speaker 4: talked about that was used before in a previous age progression.
Speaker 4: There was some intensity to them, and in some of
Speaker 4: the pictures you provided me they were all they were
Speaker 4: like buggy, just crazy, just bulging in your face kind
Speaker 4: of eyes, angry, intense eyes. But that's not how the
Speaker 4: person walks around. So I looked at some of the
Speaker 4: other normal shots, the more candid shots, more natural, relaxed look,
Speaker 4: and he still had this intensity. You know, the eyes
Speaker 4: were not so buggy, they weren't so bulging, but they
Speaker 4: had this intense I don't want to say crazy look,
Speaker 4: but just this intensity. It would make you look at
Speaker 4: the guy and say, there's something about this guy that's
Speaker 4: not quite right. So we were able to go somewhere
Speaker 4: between normal, relax normalize, friendly eyes and not so buggy
Speaker 4: crazy to this intensity that I believe would stay with
Speaker 4: him over time.
Speaker 1: What about the smile.
Speaker 4: The smile was just kind of one of those smiles
Speaker 4: where one corner of the mouth was maybe a little
Speaker 4: bit more lifted than the other, and maybe both sides
Speaker 4: are a little bit even. But they kind of curled
Speaker 4: up at the end and had this It was more
Speaker 4: than just a cat who ate the canary look the
Speaker 4: look of a guy that Sag got this. It's more
Speaker 4: of a look combined with the eyes that gave him
Speaker 4: almost a quiet, diabolical look that I think people would
Speaker 4: notice in their conversations with him, or if they saw
Speaker 4: him on the streets somewhere with that same smirky, diabolical
Speaker 4: smile and those intense eyes watching them.
Speaker 1: Michael and I went through several rounds of edits of
Speaker 1: the age progressed image. He gave me a rough draft,
Speaker 1: I gave him feedback. We ended up, I think, with
Speaker 1: something great to craft it. He reviewed every single photo
Speaker 1: of Fisher. He chose two as primary references, the famous
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine portrait and the new nineteen ninety seven
Speaker 1: photo given to me by the Rodents. That photo is
Speaker 1: especially valuable. The sun lights up Robert's face from the side.
Speaker 1: His lips are pursed, his mouth slightly ajar. You see
Speaker 1: the sinews of his neck, the lines of his cheeks.
Speaker 1: His head looks more compact with a pointier chin than
Speaker 1: the ninety nine portrait, which makes it look like a
Speaker 1: beefy square. I think your image is absolutely stellar. It
Speaker 1: is the line between something that is too vague and
Speaker 1: artsy and something that is too photo realistic and might
Speaker 1: not jog somebody out there to recognize Fisher under an
Speaker 1: assumed identity as Fisher. It is, in my opinion, the
Speaker 1: perfect line. While working with Lois Gill and Michael, I
Speaker 1: stumble upon another artist, A fourth artist. His name is
Speaker 1: Jill is a thirty nine year old creative developer in Belgium.
Speaker 1: He founded a project called the AI Witness Report, which
Speaker 1: uses artificial intelligence to convert police sketches into photorealistic images.
Speaker 1: He was inspired in part by his dad, Ludo, a
Speaker 1: forensic dentist and a talented artist. What first caught my
Speaker 1: eye was Jeal's conversion of the famous dB Cooper sketch
Speaker 1: His work is impressive. You can check it out on Instagram, AI,
Speaker 1: dot Witness, dot Report. With Geel's help, I conduct another experiment.
Speaker 1: I sent him all three AH progressed images, the new
Speaker 1: ones of Robert Fisher. He runs them through AI.
Speaker 3: My main tool that I use is stable effusion. It's
Speaker 3: like an image generation model. And what interests me about
Speaker 3: stable fusion is that it's an open source system, so
Speaker 3: you're not bound to the limitations of like a system
Speaker 3: by OpenAI or microstoft.
Speaker 1: In go age, progressed images out come photorealistic versions of them. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's not that simple. In fact, it takes Giel at
Speaker 1: least seven to eight hours to do each one. In
Speaker 1: the end, for the Fisher case, even Giel agrees that
Speaker 1: it's better to use the old school images, not their
Speaker 1: photorealistic counterparts.
Speaker 3: The sketch is never going to be super accurate, but
Speaker 3: the advantage of the sketch is that it guests a
Speaker 3: wider net because it's a bit fake, and there are
Speaker 3: more people that look like a sketch then there will
Speaker 3: be people that look like if very detailed for the
Speaker 3: realistic image, you're like, oh no, that's not Tom, that's
Speaker 3: a different person. It's a real person, but it's not
Speaker 3: my neighbor Tom. You know, all the while your neighbor
Speaker 3: Tom is the killer and then he gets away with it.
Speaker 1: To view all of the aids, progressed images and yields
Speaker 1: AI conversions, go to neon thirty three dot com and
Speaker 1: sign up for our email list. If you like this show,
Speaker 1: please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and
Speaker 1: Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, visit meon thirty
Speaker 1: three dot com or follow me on Twitter at John
Speaker 1: waalzac j O n w A l Czak. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 5: His voice.
Speaker 1: As far as I know, a fugitive has never been
Speaker 1: located based on the sound of their voice, especially not
Speaker 1: one as high profile as Robert Fisher. As I said previously,
Speaker 1: when he escaped, when he burned down his house, he
Speaker 1: made a big mistake. He left his fire safe locked
Speaker 1: and it worked the safe I mean inside. Police found
Speaker 1: four VHS tapes containing about six and a half hours
Speaker 1: of home videos in grainy footage from the late eighties
Speaker 1: and early nineties. You see and hear Robert Fisher, which
Speaker 1: allows me to conduct one final experiment. Early on. I
Speaker 1: have an idea, what if we use AI to recreate
Speaker 1: Fisher's voice. Seems simple right by now we've all seen
Speaker 1: and heard the magic of generative AI. The voice of
Speaker 1: a dead Frank Sinatra singing Get Low by Lil John,
Speaker 1: the voice of a dead Johnny Cash singing Barbie Girl
Speaker 1: by Aqua. Here's the problem. Those work because we have
Speaker 1: a ton of high quality sample audio of both Sinatra
Speaker 1: and Cash, with Fisher not so much. AI is not
Speaker 1: not yet at the point where you can just throw
Speaker 1: in a few scraps of lo fi eighties audio and
Speaker 1: pop out a high res cloned model of someone's voice.
Speaker 1: You need good source audio, preferably a lot of it.
Speaker 1: So my first task is to figure out how much
Speaker 1: audio we have of Robert. The answer unfortunately, not a lot.
Speaker 1: You can only hear him in a tiny percentage of
Speaker 1: the home videos. So again I ask everyone for help.
Speaker 1: Do you have any other video and or audio of him? Again,
Speaker 1: I strike out, except with John and Mary Beth Rodin,
Speaker 1: who find and share five additional previously unpublished videos of Robert,
Speaker 1: taken in nineteen ninety three and ninety four. These clips
Speaker 1: are brief but extremely helpful, in part because the Rodents
Speaker 1: had a high quality video camera. I spend a week
Speaker 1: painstakingly combing through every second of available footage from the
Speaker 1: Firesafe and the Rodents. I find two hundred and forty
Speaker 1: one clips of Robert's voice, ranging from one second to
Speaker 1: sixty two seconds long. I log every in a Google sheet.
Speaker 1: I categorize each clip best, great, good, okay. The okay
Speaker 1: audio is too low quality to help us, so in
Speaker 1: the end we're left with two point seven to two
Speaker 1: minutes of best audio, two point one to two minutes
Speaker 1: of great audio, and six point six to eight minutes
Speaker 1: of good audio. Eleven point five to two minutes total. Again,
Speaker 1: not a lot. I'm now going to play the seven
Speaker 1: best clips to give you an idea of what we're
Speaker 1: working with. The first three are from videos the Rodents
Speaker 1: gave me. They've never aired before publicly, nor were they
Speaker 1: ever obtained by law enforcement. The next four we're rescued
Speaker 1: from the fire safe from the rubble. Listen carefully to
Speaker 1: Robert's voice. When the audio jumps, it's because we cut
Speaker 1: out other people's voices for privacy's sake.
Speaker 5: Clip one, but boy.
Speaker 16: Smile, you're on candid camera, boy, so say cheese.
Speaker 2: Here you go.
Speaker 1: Clip two, really good.
Speaker 2: Good. Come here boy, Okay, stay, rugger, good.
Speaker 4: Dogs, good dog.
Speaker 1: Clip three.
Speaker 2: It's little beep for there now, Bob, go touch a lot,
Speaker 2: Go touch a lot. Okay, rug, Hey, you guys, get
Speaker 2: around the dog.
Speaker 17: Stay rugs stay.
Speaker 2: Clip four four pound capish at Swallow Lake.
Speaker 17: And he tries to say a cop more than that,
Speaker 17: but no, it was only seventeen four pounders. I must
Speaker 17: say it did a good good job last night.
Speaker 2: Kicking him out. Wait a second, here comes someone. Oh
Speaker 2: it's Danielle. Danielle. What's you doing back here? Girl? Huh?
Speaker 2: Talk to me?
Speaker 17: What's your tongue sticking out for? Okay, let's see what's
Speaker 17: going on over here. I think kids are still putting
Speaker 17: none there she's rugger.
Speaker 2: Come here, come here boy. Okay, Hope, hope, Hope. Sit
Speaker 2: there you go, bigger, lay down.
Speaker 9: Sit.
Speaker 17: It's too hot on the ground here. We must remember
Speaker 17: we live in Arizona. He's going in this corner. Chad,
Speaker 17: get that wagon going, boy, will you hit him out?
Speaker 2: Hang on tight?
Speaker 1: Brett Clip five.
Speaker 2: Chad wan take pictures of his big muscles. Here he is,
Speaker 2: and here's Brittan. Let's hear your big muscles. Bretton. Okay,
Speaker 2: and Danielle. Where's your big muscles? Okay, everybody in their
Speaker 2: big muscles?
Speaker 1: Clip six.
Speaker 14: Hey, Brittany, are you glad Chad and Danielle came down
Speaker 14: to see you. Are you sad that they have to
Speaker 14: go home today? Do you wish they could stay just
Speaker 14: a little longer and play with you? Yeah? Would you
Speaker 14: share your toys with them? He would if they could
Speaker 14: stay longer, you'd share your toys with them.
Speaker 2: I believe you. I believe you.
Speaker 1: Clip seven.
Speaker 17: Okay, Brittany, take a couple of steps this way, so
Speaker 17: when I said go, you can come already, come this
Speaker 17: way a little bit.
Speaker 2: Walk this way, britt a little further. Keep comment, keep comment.
Speaker 2: Okay right there, right there.
Speaker 16: Okay, Brittany, you got you gonna have to run fast
Speaker 16: to beat these two clouds. Okay, on your mark when
Speaker 16: I say go, go, britt on your mark, Get set
Speaker 16: go go bred.
Speaker 17: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's it. The seven best clips, with everything cataloged. I
Speaker 1: now turn to tech. I research AI voice cloning products.
Speaker 1: We need something high quality, something professional, not a phone app.
Speaker 1: It takes months, but we reached an agreement with a
Speaker 1: company called Altered AI. Altered has worked on many major projects,
Speaker 1: most of which it can't discuss because of non disclosure agreements.
Speaker 1: One notable example is public though for the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three film Air, Altered recreated the voice of a young
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan. We're lucky then to partner with them. Air
Speaker 1: had a seventy to ninety million dollar budget, US not
Speaker 1: so much. I chat my zoom with Altered CEO my
Speaker 1: name is. I asked me, honest, what he thought when
Speaker 1: he got our request creativity?
Speaker 18: You give someone a spool, and you said, I just
Speaker 18: gave him a spoon, and suddenly he starts sculpturing something.
Speaker 6: Right, you see.
Speaker 18: People using in a completely unpredictable ways. So very interesting
Speaker 18: to see how people can use the tool to create
Speaker 18: something completely new that may be a new form of heart.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating that you say that, How do we rank
Speaker 1: on the ranking of bizarre requests that you've received running
Speaker 1: this company?
Speaker 6: Like, I'm think people who have more bizarre like Like,
Speaker 6: I think the best I've ever heard was something like
Speaker 6: I want to be famous like my dad, so please
Speaker 6: let me clane his voice.
Speaker 11: I'm going to be famous like my dad. So I
Speaker 11: don't know who whose child is.
Speaker 6: No, Honestly, you're not but you are in the top
Speaker 6: the top tail or something.
Speaker 1: And altered all the audio we have of Robert Fisher,
Speaker 1: the best grade and good clips eleven point five to
Speaker 1: two minutes. They aren't sure if it's enough or of
Speaker 1: sufficient quality to clone his voice, but they get to
Speaker 1: work on a custom model. A few weeks later we
Speaker 1: get an email success. What did you think when you
Speaker 1: first heard it work?
Speaker 18: I never heard a person of that level of let's
Speaker 18: say evilness.
Speaker 11: I don't know how to call it. You see movies
Speaker 11: all the time about special characters and murderous characters, right,
Speaker 11: You've seen some videos of Along Hitler or others stalling
Speaker 11: who killed people in scores.
Speaker 18: But that was in the leaders side.
Speaker 11: We never heard people are like every day they were
Speaker 11: hiding and killing them.
Speaker 18: So kind of putting a voice to that personality made
Speaker 18: me wonder about what personality traits does the voice convey?
Speaker 11: Okay, stunt this guy? Would I by his voice being
Speaker 11: able to.
Speaker 18: Say, see this person might be dangerous if I let
Speaker 18: my kids close to him?
Speaker 3: For example?
Speaker 1: What would you think if this voice project that we've
Speaker 1: been doing. What would you think if this actually worked
Speaker 1: and helped to catch him? That would be cool?
Speaker 11: Way enough for him, and I will make the world
Speaker 11: the better place.
Speaker 1: I guess when we work with the visual artists the
Speaker 1: forensic artists, one of the things that they tell us
Speaker 1: about visual age progressed images, so taking the old photos
Speaker 1: and updating them for what he would look like today
Speaker 1: is their work is supposed to be representative, so it
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that image they produce is going to
Speaker 1: be exactly what he looks like. That their goal is
Speaker 1: to trigger somebody's mind to say that looks familiar. So
Speaker 1: instead of saying this is exactly what he looks like,
Speaker 1: if you trigger somebody out there their mind familiarity, maybe
Speaker 1: they will think for a second, think for a minute
Speaker 1: that this person they know could match the person that
Speaker 1: we are looking for. And it's interesting because in some
Speaker 1: ways this is almost an audio version of that where
Speaker 1: we are using. I was very impressed that Altered was
Speaker 1: able to do what it was able to do with
Speaker 1: limited source audio of questionable quality, which is not your
Speaker 1: fault at all, and you still were able to successfully
Speaker 1: pull this off. And I think even if it's not
Speaker 1: exactly what he sounds like today, my hope would be
Speaker 1: that somebody out there it kind of maybe jogs their
Speaker 1: memory or their mind a little bit that they can say, well,
Speaker 1: that kind of sounds like so and so, and then,
Speaker 1: especially if you combine that with the work we're doing
Speaker 1: with visual forensic artists, if you think, well, that kind
Speaker 1: of looks like and that kind of sounds like that's
Speaker 1: a whole different way of approaching this versus just the
Speaker 1: visual aspect. So, as far as I know, this is
Speaker 1: the first time this has ever been done. Here's how
Speaker 1: it works. Alter set us up with their software. We
Speaker 1: cast our producer Chris Brown as Robert Fisher, which is
Speaker 1: amusing because Chris is a kind, gentle guy, certainly not
Speaker 1: a family killer. I script what I want Chris, excuse
Speaker 1: me Robert to say. We record his audio directly into
Speaker 1: the altered AI studio, which is easy to use. I
Speaker 1: press a button, Boom magic. Chris is now Robert Robert Chris.
Speaker 1: Here are some samples before and after.
Speaker 19: Hey everybody, Chris Brown here, I bet you're as surprised
Speaker 19: as I am.
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Chris Brown here, I bet you're as surprised
Speaker 2: as I am.
Speaker 19: Don't worry, I'm not singing. I'll leave that for the
Speaker 19: other Chris Brown.
Speaker 2: Don't worry. I'm not singing. I'll leave that for the
Speaker 2: other Chris Brown.
Speaker 19: But enough about me. This is about me, Robert Fisher.
Speaker 2: But enough about me. This is about me, Robert Fisher.
Speaker 1: What you're gonna hear next is a fictional interview between
Speaker 1: me and AI Robert. This is an experiment. There are
Speaker 1: limitations if you hear Robert and think, man, that's not great.
Speaker 1: Remember we had to overcome severe challenges, only eleven point
Speaker 1: five to two minutes of source material from tapes filmed
Speaker 1: in the eighties and n many of which survived an
Speaker 1: explosion and a house fire. I'm saying this because I
Speaker 1: don't want it to reflect negatively on alter ed AI's capabilities.
Speaker 1: They did us a favor. They were able to help
Speaker 1: us when many other companies couldn't or wouldn't. Pay attention
Speaker 1: to the sound of Robert's voice. We weren't able to
Speaker 1: age it, so it's closer to what it sounded like
Speaker 1: at forty than today. But still, do you recognize it?
Speaker 1: Does it match anyone you know?
Speaker 5: Without further ado, mister Fisher, I presume, yep, that's me.
Speaker 5: Do you understand what we're doing here?
Speaker 2: Not really?
Speaker 5: Well, apparently I'm interviewing you.
Speaker 2: How I'm still missing?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I know. We recreated your voice using AI why
Speaker 5: to see if anyone recognizes it, to get publicity so
Speaker 5: we can find you, and to conduct an experiment with
Speaker 5: cutting edge technology.
Speaker 2: So am I real? Yes?
Speaker 5: And no? Is that ethical in this context? Yes, you're
Speaker 5: unpredictable and dangerous. We have to find you.
Speaker 2: This is a gimmick.
Speaker 5: If that's what you want to call it. Fine, I
Speaker 5: don't want to speak to you. Well tough, that's the
Speaker 5: beauty of this. You are not in control. I am
Speaker 5: What do you mean? I can make you say whatever
Speaker 5: I want.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'd like to see you try.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 2: My name is Robert Fisher. Police believe I killed my
Speaker 2: wife and kids. I caused people extreme pain and made
Speaker 2: it worse by disappearing. I'm a coward. See what gives
Speaker 2: you the right to play god? I can ask you
Speaker 2: the same thing, smart ass. Look, I get it. AI
Speaker 2: is exciting but also dangerous. It can make us doubt
Speaker 2: what's real and believe to be real what's not. That's
Speaker 2: rich And you think I'm the bad guy?
Speaker 5: Yep? I do you profit off people's pain? Pain you caused?
Speaker 5: And no, I'm not in it for money.
Speaker 2: I bet you want to be famous.
Speaker 5: No, trust me. I like my privacy, well.
Speaker 2: So do I. Why are you trying so hard to
Speaker 2: find me?
Speaker 5: Because this is a fascinating case. I want to solve it,
Speaker 5: and because you hurt so many people, I want to
Speaker 5: help them.
Speaker 2: All right, come on, then ask me some real questions,
Speaker 2: like what what everyone wants you to ask about? The murders,
Speaker 2: the fire, my escape.
Speaker 5: I wish I could go on.
Speaker 2: Then do it.
Speaker 5: No, Robert, unlike you, I have ethical limits. I have
Speaker 5: to be careful here. But trust me, the minute they
Speaker 5: drag your ass in, I'm happy to interview you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but why would I speak to you?
Speaker 5: Because I'm trying to be fair. I'm trying to tell
Speaker 5: the world who you really are, good and bad. I
Speaker 5: didn't just call you a monster and play scary music
Speaker 5: and move on. So Bill, am I you were Robert Fisher?
Speaker 2: No, I'm not.
Speaker 5: No, you're not.
Speaker 2: You're right. I'm Chris Brown, a producer.
Speaker 5: Yes you are, last time I checked.
Speaker 2: No, I'm Robert again. Okay, John, Can I be honest?
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Can you you're biased? Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm biased, all right? Biased against child killers?
Speaker 2: Whatever? You're never gonna find me.
Speaker 5: Well, then I hope you suffer until you surrender or die.
Speaker 2: Boh, okay, real professional.
Speaker 5: Don't you have any shame at all?
Speaker 2: I think we're done here. Where's my lawyer?
Speaker 5: Calm down, man, I'm not a cop.
Speaker 2: I don't care.
Speaker 5: What do you care about? Do you even believe in God?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 14: I do?
Speaker 5: And you think what You're just gonna live life on
Speaker 5: the lamb and then die and go to heaven after
Speaker 5: what you did. Maybe that's not gonna happen. Okay, you've
Speaker 5: got to know that. Surrender now. It's the only way
Speaker 5: you can redeem yourself at all.
Speaker 2: No, no, what, No, I'm not gonna surrender.
Speaker 5: Fine, in that case, I'm taking control.
Speaker 2: John is in control of my voice. He can make
Speaker 2: me say anything. I can't speak for myself. And less
Speaker 2: I surrender or the police find me, I will live
Speaker 2: in fear for the rest of my life that someone
Speaker 2: recognizes me. For that to happen, I need your help.
Speaker 2: Put my face everywhere. Share the new wanted poster. Put
Speaker 2: it all over social media, Send it to friends, family, coworkers, everyone.
Speaker 2: If you're a celebrity, share my face. If you're an influencer,
Speaker 2: share my face. If you're a billboard company, put out
Speaker 2: my face. If you own movie theaters, air my face.
Speaker 2: If you're a reporter, do a story, put my face.
Speaker 2: Everywhere they've worked with John List. They found him after
Speaker 2: eighteen years, So don't just let this episode and then
Speaker 2: forget about it and move on. Go to knee on
Speaker 2: thirty three dot com to download the new wanted.
Speaker 1: Poster and share my face next time I'm missing in Arizona.
Speaker 9: One thing I'm going to recommend is if you have
Speaker 9: an identical twin brother, don't be a fugitive.
Speaker 1: You can reach us by phone at one eight three
Speaker 1: three new tips. That's one eight three three six three
Speaker 1: nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips at
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com, tip s at iHeartMedia dot com, online
Speaker 1: at meon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter at
Speaker 1: John Wallzac, j O n W A. L. Czak. Paul
Speaker 1: Duckan is our executive producer, Chris Brown is our supervising producer.
Speaker 1: Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemperlin is our researcher,
Speaker 1: Ben Bowen is a consulting producer. And I'm your host
Speaker 1: and executive producer. John Waalzac special thanks to Wayne Stallert
Speaker 1: and Kashia Katziura, and a big thank you to altered Ai.
Speaker 1: For more information, visit alter dot Ai. Also thank you
Speaker 1: to Mike Constanty, the researcher we hire to access archive
Speaker 1: naval records. Additional production support provided by Ben Hackett AI.
Speaker 1: Robert Fischer voiced by Chris Brown, Navy Ports of Call
Speaker 1: List voiced by Lauren Vogelbaum. Cover art by Pam Peacock,
Speaker 1: Neon thirty three. Logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro
Speaker 1: song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first
Speaker 1: two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing
Speaker 1: on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give
Speaker 1: us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a
Speaker 1: co production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three