Speaker 1: Good morning, Peepsen, and welcome to ook F Daily with
Speaker 1: Me your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: it is a bittersweet that wok F is winding down.
Speaker 1: I'm going to dedicate a solo show that you will
Speaker 1: listen to over the holidays on my reflections over the
Speaker 1: last seven years of helming this show and speaking and
Speaker 1: creating an audience with all of you. But I couldn't
Speaker 1: have done this show without the consistency of the presence
Speaker 1: of doctor Jonathan Metzel, who for four years has shown
Speaker 1: up each and every week to engage in conversation with me,
Speaker 1: with all of us, and just to think about, you know,
Speaker 1: just think about it for a moment, what we've been
Speaker 1: through as a country over the last four years, what
Speaker 1: you've been through personally over the last four years. It's
Speaker 1: wild to kind of wrap your mind around. And I
Speaker 1: have found such solace and hopefulness in the grounding conversations
Speaker 1: that I've been able to have with Jonathan over the
Speaker 1: last several years. And I think that his insight has
Speaker 1: been invaluable and I have appreciated it so very much,
Speaker 1: And it is just I can't believe that this is
Speaker 1: our last interview on WOKF and so today we just
Speaker 1: take some time to we're reflect on what has transpired
Speaker 1: over the last four years, what we've learned and you know,
Speaker 1: and give thoughts to how we move in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, this
Speaker 1: last conversation on WOKF with our friend, our in house doctor,
Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel. Uh So, folks, I am this is
Speaker 1: this is so crazy. Uh For four years, for four years,
Speaker 1: uh doctor, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl has
Speaker 1: been in conversation on WOKF daily and today is our
Speaker 1: final interview on WOKF. Which is so wild, Jonathan, it's
Speaker 1: wiping tears from his eyes. Is so wild to think
Speaker 1: about the hours Jonathan, that you and I have spent
Speaker 1: together on air. I first off just want to thank
Speaker 1: you for all of your time, for all of your
Speaker 1: analysis over the years, which has just been like priceless.
Speaker 1: But I guess I want to start off with you know,
Speaker 1: some of your reflections over over time together.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, think about what's happened to like our lives,
Speaker 2: our everything, like you know, so so much has happened
Speaker 2: just in the world globally and personally, and so it's
Speaker 2: great to have a consistent friendship above all else that
Speaker 2: kind of sees you through all of these ups and
Speaker 2: downs about elections and global shit and relationships and breakups
Speaker 2: and everything else. Like we've become really good friends. This
Speaker 2: love I love that part, and so that part has
Speaker 2: been so meaningful, and there are days where we have
Speaker 2: it's funny to think about, like when we first started
Speaker 2: doing this, Yeah, we would spend quite a bit of
Speaker 2: time working on the you know before like what's the
Speaker 2: agenda and where the points that we're to get hit.
Speaker 2: And then about halfway through we realized, like, okay, just
Speaker 2: turn on the damn camera.
Speaker 1: We'll figure it out the microphone and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 2: Because we just figured out that like we had, we
Speaker 2: had just gotten this like lovely I think resonance. So
Speaker 2: for me, that's that beside any like one thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: we've seen ups and downs. Most of America I think
Speaker 2: now realizes we warned them pretty much about every single
Speaker 2: thing that was going to happen. We predicted a lot
Speaker 2: of shit here that I ended up happening. And uh,
Speaker 2: but but but but even beyond that, we just created
Speaker 2: such a nice vibe, I think, And so I'm the
Speaker 2: most grateful for the fact that we got so comfortable
Speaker 2: that we would just be like, hey, hey, okay, turn
Speaker 2: on look on the bikephone, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that, you know, over the last
Speaker 1: several years, like it is wild, honestly to think about
Speaker 1: what we've been through as a country, but also what
Speaker 1: we've been through personally in our personal lives, like you
Speaker 1: bring up. But at some point we just realized, well,
Speaker 1: we're reading and watching the same things, so let's just
Speaker 1: get on the air and talk about them and talk
Speaker 1: about them in a way that can be easily digestible
Speaker 1: for people. And I kind of want to take us
Speaker 1: back to COVID, which is, you know where we started,
Speaker 1: where we where we started being in conversation around that time,
Speaker 1: and just kind of what did you what do you
Speaker 1: feel like you learned, you know, back way back in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, you know, being on air every week, Like,
Speaker 1: what did you What could you say that you took
Speaker 1: away from COVID?
Speaker 2: I would say three things. So we started during COVID,
Speaker 2: and number one was just that we were in an
Speaker 2: information vacuum, and so it was a scramble every week
Speaker 2: just to get the most updated information even though nobody knew,
Speaker 2: but we were, we were ahead of It's just funny
Speaker 2: how it was a real eye opener for how information travels.
Speaker 2: You know, I have my networks of experts, you have
Speaker 2: your networks, but we were often ahead of the game
Speaker 2: of a medical journal that had to wait a year
Speaker 2: to publish things. But you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And so there was so much of a we're in
Speaker 2: a really almost a kind of libertarian moment, you know,
Speaker 2: about how information's read, and so the power of this
Speaker 2: kind of media I thought was really powerful, both in
Speaker 2: terms of the information we were giving people, but also
Speaker 2: like just what we were learning and how quickly we
Speaker 2: were getting it out out there. I mean, the risk
Speaker 2: is you have to be really careful not to tell
Speaker 2: people to like drink draino or the other shit that
Speaker 2: Trump was saying, but or lightsol or whatever it was.
Speaker 2: But but it's just you know, I think that it
Speaker 2: was certainly a part of like that here's here's how
Speaker 2: we're getting information out So that to me, that was
Speaker 2: it is we would kind of touch base every week
Speaker 2: and figure out what are you learning? Because nobody knew.
Speaker 2: It was almost like the information underground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like we were also able to
Speaker 1: just be you know, honest with the audience about our
Speaker 1: own fears about what was happening, right, because while we
Speaker 1: were busy being on air trying to convey information, as
Speaker 1: we were receiving that information and trying to process it
Speaker 1: and then relay it out to the audience, there was
Speaker 1: also like just a lot of shit of dealing with
Speaker 1: the fact that it could this be it? Right, Like,
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of this health pandemic and you know,
Speaker 1: we had no idea how long it was going to last.
Speaker 1: And you know, we're not leaving our homes where you know,
Speaker 1: we're watching cardboard, We're doing all of these things and
Speaker 1: and yet still trying to maintain some normalcy by being
Speaker 1: in conversation. And I think that you know, and I
Speaker 1: know that a lot of people have been super grateful
Speaker 1: for you in being able to keep them same and
Speaker 1: keep them kind of gathered in themselves as we were
Speaker 1: going through because you were, you know, they're the trusted
Speaker 1: doctor that they could talk to, you know, listen to
Speaker 1: every week and feel like there was some connection to
Speaker 1: normalcy in that way well.
Speaker 2: And I think another part of this is just that that,
Speaker 2: you know, we were building community in a particular way,
Speaker 2: we were building we were building community because we didn't
Speaker 2: all know. So it was also about support, and you know,
Speaker 2: we thought it was the end, but now it turns
Speaker 2: out this is the end now, So we're just we
Speaker 2: were just a little bit early.
Speaker 1: We were just a little bit early. And you know,
Speaker 1: and during that time of twenty twenty when we got
Speaker 1: on air, obviously you mentioned Donald Trump and Donald Trump
Speaker 1: being president, you also are our resident you know, gun expert, right,
Speaker 1: and the gun violence that visited this country over the
Speaker 1: last I mean, I don't even know, do you keep like,
Speaker 1: do you know how many horrific you know, acts of
Speaker 1: mass shootings and gun violence that has happened that at
Speaker 1: least you know, over the last several years.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I mean, yeah, one every day, honestly.
Speaker 2: But the other part is just the other part is
Speaker 2: just we kind of talked so much on the show
Speaker 2: about the bigger implications of gun politics, like, for me,
Speaker 2: the issue of Elon Musk starting to talk about the
Speaker 2: Second Amendment when he very clearly did not give two
Speaker 2: shits about it. But it was about like power, anti democracy,
Speaker 2: bigger issues that tied in. So guns were also, as
Speaker 2: we talked about in the book launch, and all these
Speaker 2: things just so clearly tied into much bigger issues having
Speaker 2: to do with governance and judiciary and things like that.
Speaker 2: So I mean, I just I can remember nine thousand
Speaker 2: shows we did about mass shootings and also many more
Speaker 2: shows we did about how the gun issue was being
Speaker 2: tied to the judiciary and to judges and all these
Speaker 2: other kind of factors that we talked about a lot.
Speaker 1: How do you think that people have come to understand
Speaker 1: the epidemic, the pandemic, whatever it is that you want
Speaker 1: to call it, of gun violence in this country now
Speaker 1: versus when we first started.
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, it's interesting, like I gave
Speaker 2: the keynote or one of the keynotes at the Public
Speaker 2: Health Gun Violence Association meeting last week with two big
Speaker 2: time gun scholars who were who were people who I
Speaker 2: never would have thought I was on the same side
Speaker 2: about like in the beginning of the whole thing, like
Speaker 2: I was critical, I was you know, they thought, oh
Speaker 2: my god, this guy's coming after us or something like that.
Speaker 2: And so part of the story was I think there's
Speaker 2: been a coming together, like the fact that I was
Speaker 2: able to give a keynote of this thing and we
Speaker 2: had this thing and they were on my panel and
Speaker 2: they said, you know, we agree, we need a bigger
Speaker 2: political strategy. So I think people are starting to realize
Speaker 2: that that I think, I think the arguments, I think
Speaker 2: the argument's coming Doe. But you know, so now it's good.
Speaker 2: We'll kind of go from there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just you know, look, we're coming off of
Speaker 1: the school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin. I don't know how
Speaker 1: many shootings that we've had this year, but I would
Speaker 1: assume that it is, you know, in the hundreds. And
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder because your your book, you know,
Speaker 1: came out this year, what we've become. You've gone around
Speaker 1: the country speaking to people about reframing our argument. How
Speaker 1: do you think that has fallen on people? And do
Speaker 1: you see what what does the movement look like moving forward?
Speaker 1: Knowing that Donald Trump is weeks away from taking office,
Speaker 1: I hope.
Speaker 2: We get there, honestly. I mean, that's my biggest help
Speaker 2: is that we get there. Because yelling about background checks,
Speaker 2: which we do after every shooting as an impulse, which
Speaker 2: is important, but it's just not going to get us
Speaker 2: to where we need to be. We need, we need
Speaker 2: to come prepared with understanding how to win elections and
Speaker 2: then how to seat judges. And I think, you know,
Speaker 2: as much as I respect the work that stuff like
Speaker 2: background checks do, it's it's just it's not it's not
Speaker 2: the answer to the threat we're facing right now. Background
Speaker 2: Checks are point of sale gun checks, so when you
Speaker 2: buy a gun, you go through a background check. Thirty
Speaker 2: five hundred million guns out there, so you could stop
Speaker 2: selling guns tomorrow, which is never going to happen, and
Speaker 2: it still wouldn't really matter. And so you know, we
Speaker 2: need a more holistic, top to bottom strategy. And I
Speaker 2: do worry I see a lot of people making the
Speaker 2: mistake of thinking, if we just shout louder next time,
Speaker 2: it'll get us there. But I really hope that's not
Speaker 2: where we come to. I think we need to be
Speaker 2: much more unified and strategic about this issue. But this
Speaker 2: issue is such a metaphor for so many other issues.
Speaker 1: What do you think is what is most concerning you
Speaker 1: about this incoming Trump two point zero administration.
Speaker 2: We talked about this, I think last week, but that
Speaker 2: idea that basically the opposite of to be in the
Speaker 2: political opposition. People are just really tired and they feel
Speaker 2: like the system's not working for them, and they feel
Speaker 2: like it's overwhelming, and it it doesn't matter who you
Speaker 2: vote for. Elon Musk can overturn your entire economy with
Speaker 2: two hours of tweeting, And so it feels hopeless and
Speaker 2: people start to check out. And I know from having
Speaker 2: studied other places that kind of go down the path
Speaker 2: that we are potentially going down. It's when people start
Speaker 2: to become exhausted, they become complacent. But the other issue
Speaker 2: is the old methods of protests and resistance are not
Speaker 2: going to work. I mean, doing a women's march right
Speaker 2: now is not going to work. You know, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's we need a new strategy that is a much
Speaker 2: more strategic strategy that involves more money, more people. And also,
Speaker 2: I mean, if we're serious about speaking, for example, to
Speaker 2: the interests of working class people, we can't just shout
Speaker 2: louder about things that they already know about. We actually
Speaker 2: need a new plate. And so you know, something's going
Speaker 2: to emerge. I hope something. I hope something is going
Speaker 2: to emerge, and I hope it's I hope it's a
Speaker 2: new thing that is more on the ground and less.
Speaker 2: You know, we won the social media a wars for
Speaker 2: a while there, but we didn't win the convince people
Speaker 2: that we have their best heart passengers in my mind thing,
Speaker 2: So I think we're going to need a new playbook,
Speaker 2: and I think that's what's emerging right now.
Speaker 1: Are there any opportunities that you see inside of the
Speaker 1: obstacles in front of us in this incoming administration?
Speaker 2: Yeah, people realize we're on the same side, and you
Speaker 2: know who knows, you know who who knows? I mean again,
Speaker 2: like when to be honest, when Trump won, I thought, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I got to live with this for the
Speaker 2: next four years. I hope he does a good job.
Speaker 2: I really do. Like it's not like I want him
Speaker 2: to fail for four years and everything to fall apart
Speaker 2: so that I can win some more argument. I want
Speaker 2: the economy to do well. And then when he started
Speaker 2: making the appointments and doing all this stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: I thought, man, I don't know, So I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, my concern is that our system is like
Speaker 2: wanting the other side to do bad. So you can
Speaker 2: point everybody and say, look, how shitty. They are swinging
Speaker 2: on this pendulum, and there's some serious things at play
Speaker 2: right now, right like getting it's easy to bluster your
Speaker 2: way into a trade war. It's really hard to manage
Speaker 2: and get out of a trade war, or when a
Speaker 2: trade war. So we're blustering our way into some really
Speaker 2: complicated stuff, and I just hope he's got like the
Speaker 2: right brilliant minds to navigate this.
Speaker 1: Jonathan, you have seen who he is appointing, So which
Speaker 1: one of them is bright and brilliant?
Speaker 2: The job of the hut? The secretary of Labor. Yeah, Now,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm just saying I'm making a point,
Speaker 2: which is that it's going to be important at some
Speaker 2: point to have qualified people. So who knows how long
Speaker 2: this cabinet will? You know, I was being a little.
Speaker 1: Bit ironic, I think, So I do want to ask you.
Speaker 1: You know, you've mentioned it a couple of times. People
Speaker 1: are exhausted, People are finding themselves in a place of hopelessness,
Speaker 1: and what comes with that is that people tune out.
Speaker 1: And I think to a certain extent it is important
Speaker 1: to tune out. I don't think that you can follow
Speaker 1: everything that this administration is going to be doing and
Speaker 1: your mental health stay intact, Like I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: think that that is going to be possible. But what
Speaker 1: recommendations do you have for people to keep their wits
Speaker 1: about them as the circus comes to town?
Speaker 2: You know? Again, I think, believe it or not, Fetterman
Speaker 2: is right about this. Pick your battles, be really strategic
Speaker 2: about your battles. Think about the strategy of our positions.
Speaker 2: You know, I just think we're kind of a leaderless
Speaker 2: organization right now, and we're new a little bit of direction,
Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of you know, are we
Speaker 2: for or against murdering a healthcare CEO? Are we for
Speaker 2: or against like all things? I don't know. We're just
Speaker 2: like all over the place right now about like things
Speaker 2: like that. So I think we're trying to figure out
Speaker 2: like what we're about, But it's not going to be
Speaker 2: something we know. In other words, if we yell louder.
Speaker 2: I believe this, and all my research shows if we
Speaker 2: yell louder about medicare for all, or if we yell
Speaker 2: outder about common sense gun reform, it's not going to
Speaker 2: convince more people. If we become more centrist, we lose
Speaker 2: people on the left. So we need some kind of
Speaker 2: thing that's not you know, that takes a reckoning, It
Speaker 2: looks in a mirror of how we got here, and
Speaker 2: then thinks about ways. There was a really, I thought
Speaker 2: good article in the Atlantic about how politics is the
Speaker 2: game of persuasion, and right is really good at persuading people,
Speaker 2: and the left is falling into trap of kind of
Speaker 2: moralizing people, and so we need to get back in
Speaker 2: the persuasion game a little bit more. I just think
Speaker 2: about in my book, for example, the one guy who said,
Speaker 2: you think, if you just yell louder, I'm going to
Speaker 2: know your points. But I understand your points already, and
Speaker 2: I don't agree with them, and so we you know.
Speaker 2: So again, I think we're gonna have to think about
Speaker 2: our playbook, think about how to broaden our coalitions and
Speaker 2: build from there. And then also, as much as possible,
Speaker 2: save all the archives of our institutions that are about
Speaker 2: to be taken apart.
Speaker 1: All right, last thing for you is, you know what
Speaker 1: are you most looking forward to in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2: My softball team is going down to Mexico. We're playing
Speaker 2: if they'll have us, I guess from local Mexican teams.
Speaker 2: I'm doing a lot of like different traveling and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, and so I hope things don't implode. Honestly,
Speaker 2: I think Vanderbilt's doing some pretty incredible things right now.
Speaker 2: I think there are there's progress happening in a lot
Speaker 2: of places in this country, and I just hope doesn't
Speaker 2: get arrested stopped. I meant too much.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, my dear friend, I cannot thank you
Speaker 1: enough for all of these years, for all of these conversations,
Speaker 1: and I look forward to seeing you in the new year,
Speaker 1: and you know, figuring out a way that we continue
Speaker 1: talking because it has been that has really been an honor,
Speaker 1: and I genuinely mean that.
Speaker 2: Very much the same for me, And thank you to
Speaker 2: everyone out there who followed along.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear friends,
Speaker 1: on woke app as always, power to the people and
Speaker 1: to all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke.
Speaker 1: As fun