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Speaker 1: Ah beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military

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Speaker 1: News and straight Talk with the Guys and the Community

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Speaker 1: Soft Prep Radio on Time on Target. This show is

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Speaker 1: brought to you by Create Club, a club fore men

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Speaker 1: by men of Gear, hand picked by Special Operations military veterans.

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Speaker 1: Club dot Us coupon code soft rep for off sign up.

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Speaker 1: Now we have the author of War Story, David Richardson

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Speaker 1: coming in studio. Jack is here with me, I mean

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Speaker 1: in scotto, of course, and uh we have Dennis here

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Speaker 1: for the first time. Who's gonna be taken over for

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Speaker 1: me on production duties. I mean, you technically were here

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Speaker 1: last time, but I figured the audience get acclimated with

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Speaker 1: you since you kind of shadowed everything and I was

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Speaker 1: I figured I would sit back learn from the master

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Speaker 1: now you did a phenomenal job. By the way, I

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Speaker 1: want the audience to know that laid it out perfect.

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Speaker 1: It really was. I mean, he he gave me the Bible, um,

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Speaker 1: not literally the Bible Old Testament, New Testament, but the

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Speaker 1: radio Bible. UM came in here, showed me exactly what

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Speaker 1: to do, told me how the ropes are running. And

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Speaker 1: hopefully it's a seamless transition from you to make Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it will be. I mean, if you, if

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Speaker 1: you guys are hearing this show and it sounds good,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be the one who edits and produced the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. So if it sounds correct, you know, in

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Speaker 1: terms of like the whole format, that is thanks to

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Speaker 1: this guy. Um. With that, let's get into some different

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Speaker 1: things going on. UM, I have some emails. I was

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Speaker 1: going to mention that I listened to Tulci Gabard on

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan's podcast. She was on recently. Yes, she was

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Speaker 1: on for I mean, it was like a big three

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Speaker 1: hour interview. I've listened to probably two thirds of it

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Speaker 1: so far. I wasn't as familiar with her as you

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Speaker 1: and I have to say, I mean, I like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the things she said on foreign policy, and

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Speaker 1: it does seem like there's a lot of unfair criticism

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Speaker 1: of her being a like supporter of Asade, which I

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Speaker 1: think she will probably said the same about you, right,

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Speaker 1: but that just because you met with him, they did. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just one of those questions that like

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Speaker 1: every let's say, anti dictator, anti anti Saddam action, every

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Speaker 1: anti Russian action is not necessarily by default in a

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Speaker 1: pro American action. UM. Like, right now we're ramping up

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Speaker 1: to go to war with Iran by all indicators, which

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get in because we have an email, But

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Speaker 1: every anti Iran action is not necessarily pro American. You

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Speaker 1: have to keep that in mind. If we get bogged

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Speaker 1: down in another fifteen year war over there, that's not

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Speaker 1: a good thing for US. UM. And we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: right into that in a little bit because we have

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Speaker 1: an email about that, and I know you wrote an

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Speaker 1: article about that. Um. The other thing I was going

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Speaker 1: to mention real quick is speaking of people running for president,

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Speaker 1: Mayor du Blasio today, we're recording this just through his

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Speaker 1: hat in the race. Did you see the cover of

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Speaker 1: the New York Post, Yeah, where it's just a bunch

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Speaker 1: of faces laughing. Yeah, I don't. I mean I don't

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Speaker 1: expect him to do very well. Yeah. No, and no,

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Speaker 1: I mean he doesn't have he doesn't have any wosta

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Speaker 1: on the national stage. You know, I don't think anyone

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Speaker 1: really gives a ship. I'd say in New York State

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Speaker 1: as a whole, he's not very well white. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he did get elected in the city and re elected,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, but I mean then again, we all, I mean,

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is somebody who could who could never get

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Speaker 1: elected mayor of New York because people knew people in

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Speaker 1: New York knew him too. Well. Yeah, but he got

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Speaker 1: himself elected as president. So the dynamics are weird, all right. Well,

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Speaker 1: with that, we'll get into some emails here, and the

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Speaker 1: first one I'll cover does have to do with Iran.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know, because, as I said, you just wrote

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Speaker 1: a piece for news Rep titled America's America's war drums

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Speaker 1: beat for Iran, And that's exactly what this email is about.

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Speaker 1: This one's from Thomas, of course, sent to soft Rep

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Speaker 1: dot Radio at soft rep dot com. Jack. With the

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Speaker 1: movement of the i r G to the States through

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Speaker 1: terror list and the announcement of a carrier strike force

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Speaker 1: and bombers headed over to the Middle East because of

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Speaker 1: possible Iranian plots. Add the recent sabotage of Saudi oilers.

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Speaker 1: Are the war drums beating louder here? And then he

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Speaker 1: says Ian, sorry to see you go, good luck with

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Speaker 1: future endeavors. Thank you so much, Thomas. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: as for that question, well, I mean I think Uh,

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Speaker 1: I think Thomas put all the chess pieces together there

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Speaker 1: and can see what's going on. Um, you have these

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Speaker 1: things happening in rapid succession. Um. They pushed Maddis out,

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Speaker 1: who was a big impotent to any kind of attack

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Speaker 1: on Iran. He wasn't gonna he wasn't about expanding the wars. Right,

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Speaker 1: we put the I r g C on the Foreign

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Speaker 1: Terrorist Organization List the ft O, which makes it a

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Speaker 1: lot easier to attack them. Right, they can be attacked

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Speaker 1: under them, probably right under they'll they'll fold it right

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Speaker 1: under the a U m F, the Authorization for the

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Speaker 1: Use of Military Force that we passed after nine eleven,

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Speaker 1: and it's been used to prosecute the entire war on

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Speaker 1: terror Uh, from yem into Afghanistan, to Iraq to Syria.

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Speaker 1: So then you have these other things happening. UM Israel

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Speaker 1: telling the United States that we have intelligence dot Iran

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Speaker 1: is potting an attack against you guys. There's no proof

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Speaker 1: of that whatsoever. It's just like some innuendo. It's about

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Speaker 1: as credible as the yellow Cake claims in Iraq. UM.

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Speaker 1: In response, we send a carrier group into the Persian Gulf.

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Speaker 1: Very very provocative action, UM, but not necessarily wrong in

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Speaker 1: of itself. But you can see that we're trying to

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Speaker 1: escalate tensions. We're trying to provoke things there. UH. Then

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Speaker 1: you have the sabotage incidents of sabotage against oil tankers

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Speaker 1: in the UAE, UM, against Saudi oil tankers off the

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Speaker 1: coast of the uae and then actual oil tankers belonging

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Speaker 1: to the u a e UM. Who's behind that sabotage

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Speaker 1: we don't know, but publicly Iran is catching the blame

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Speaker 1: for it. So we can see all of these things

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Speaker 1: happening in fairly rapid succession of one one another. And

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Speaker 1: I honestly think that UM John Bolton and his boys

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Speaker 1: are trying to provoke a sort of Gulf of Tonking

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Speaker 1: type UH situation, which was what led to the escalation

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Speaker 1: of the Vietnam War under the Nixon administration. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you keep pushing and pushing

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Speaker 1: the Iranian regime, you're basically just waiting for them to

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Speaker 1: funk up, to make up a false start or a

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Speaker 1: bad move, to screw something up, and then we find

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Speaker 1: ourselves very quickly into some sort of a shooting war,

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Speaker 1: which would probably start with it'll they'll sell it to

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Speaker 1: the American public as limited strikes against I R g

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Speaker 1: C targets in Iran. Where it goes from there, I mean,

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Speaker 1: once we we initiate a war with Iran, it's going

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Speaker 1: to plunge that entire region into chaos all over again.

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Speaker 1: Um and where that war ends, we have no idea.

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Speaker 1: The Iranians almost certainly have sleeper cells here in the

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Speaker 1: United States, and I guarantee you if it becomes an

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Speaker 1: existential crisis for the Iranian regime, they will launch attacks

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Speaker 1: against soft targets in the West. Again, I cannot tell

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Speaker 1: you or predict exactly how it's all gonna go down.

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Speaker 1: No one can. And that's the scary thing about it,

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Speaker 1: Like we don't know where the bottom is. And that's

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Speaker 1: what I see happening right now. Yeah, scary things and

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Speaker 1: read the piece as well on News Rep America's war

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Speaker 1: drums beat for Iran. It's up right now. You just

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Speaker 1: wrote that or it just went up yesterday. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that'll be up where it is up right now on

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Speaker 1: the news rep dot com. Uh. Second email is from

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Speaker 1: Matthew Ryan. First off, I would just like to say

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Speaker 1: that I love the work that you guys do a

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Speaker 1: news Rep. Keep up the good work. Second, I want

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Speaker 1: to wish Ian well and his future endeavors away from

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Speaker 1: News Rep, as well as tell Jack that I just

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Speaker 1: finished Murphy's Law and I really enjoyed it. They we're

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of that, thank you. Finally, I have

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Speaker 1: a question that hopefully Jack can answer. You have referenced

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Speaker 1: quote checkpoint pasta multiple times when talking about Somalia, but

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Speaker 1: I can't find anything about it on the internet. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like the Italians were doing some shady stuff in

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Speaker 1: Somalia at the time. Can you please explain what checkpoint

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Speaker 1: it Pasta was. This seems like something that would make

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Speaker 1: a good article for Jack to write, given his history

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Speaker 1: of writing stories about obscure military history that nobody knows about,

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Speaker 1: like Debt k Debt, a Blue Light and the nine

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Speaker 1: Panama Prison riot. Thanks Matt Ryan. Yeah, um, it could

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Speaker 1: be a topic. Checkpoint Pasta was just a checkpoint that

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Speaker 1: was manned by the Italian forces and Somalia back in

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Speaker 1: back in like when all that stuff was going down,

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Speaker 1: and um, there were Italian special Forces there and the

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Speaker 1: checkpoint came under attack at one point there was some

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Speaker 1: kind of firefight, and I would have to do a

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Speaker 1: little bit more research, Like you should be able to

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Speaker 1: find some information online if you look for it, um,

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Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, so I'd have to research that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of other smaller actions that would

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Speaker 1: be interesting research, but yeah, that's one of them. Um.

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Speaker 1: I know the people I could go and talk to

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Speaker 1: about it, or I could even get um, what was

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Speaker 1: his name, Polo Palumbo. He wrote an entire book about

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Speaker 1: the Italian Special Forces unit like their equivalent of Delta Force,

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Speaker 1: their counter terrorism unit. Um, but it's only available in Italian.

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Speaker 1: I have a copy of it, but I can my

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Speaker 1: Italian is not so good. I can't really read it.

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Speaker 1: I could ask him. He's written articles for US. I

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Speaker 1: have Benny translated. I could I could ask him to

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Speaker 1: write an article for US about it. So yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: not a bad suggestion. That would be cool, all right?

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Speaker 1: And then one last one here from Onna, Hey guys,

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Speaker 1: who writes to us all the time. Hey guys, I

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Speaker 1: have two questions for Jack regarding Benghazi attack. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: he cites this article from military dot Com reading it yesterday.

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Speaker 1: So it's called untold heroism behind marine's secret Navy cross Benghazi.

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Speaker 1: Is that the one you've seen? Okay? Uh? So two

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Speaker 1: questions here. Question one, it tells us of an infantry

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Speaker 1: assault marine assigned to a Delta attachment, asked out of ignorance,

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Speaker 1: alone and no disrespect. What can a marine bring to

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Speaker 1: a group of Delta guys? Question to the article says

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Speaker 1: they carried the bodies of the dead down the ladder.

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Speaker 1: In the book thirteen hours were told by one of

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Speaker 1: the authors the bodies were thrown over the edge of

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Speaker 1: the roof. What's your take on this discrepancy? Thanks Jack,

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Speaker 1: And he says, I've listened to Murphy's Law twice. Now,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot of listening to you to

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Speaker 1: listen to the whole book twice. Uh. And everyone should

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Speaker 1: get the book. All the best for the future to you, Ian,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And that's from Oah. Well, thanks

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Speaker 1: for the kind words. UM, I've heard a couple of

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Speaker 1: people who are like, I'm rereading your book. It's like

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Speaker 1: very humbling and flattering to hear all of that. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's very few books, to be honest, I've read twice.

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Speaker 1: I ever listened to a book twice, and I've had

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Speaker 1: a lot of people tell me like, this is unlike

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Speaker 1: every other military memoir I've read, which I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: touching for me. So thank you for that. UM. In

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Speaker 1: regardless to this question, UM, what can a marine bring

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Speaker 1: to a unit like Delta Force, Well, I would humbly

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Speaker 1: go back and recommend to Soft Rep radio episodes done

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Speaker 1: with Todd A Pulsky and you will find out Todd

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Speaker 1: was a marine who went and served as a Delta rader.

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Speaker 1: He was a troop commander and before um we ever

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Speaker 1: had him on the show, I asked around like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: is this guy legit? And you know, my contacts got

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Speaker 1: back to me says yes, he was a jaysk operator

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Speaker 1: and he was a good dude. We liked him. He's

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Speaker 1: invited me over to coaster. UM, so I think that

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Speaker 1: there there's that there are a lot of marines who

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Speaker 1: you know, they bring a lot to the table. But

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Speaker 1: also it's part of an exchange. It's an exchange of

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Speaker 1: ideas as well. So you're bringing a marine in, you're

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Speaker 1: letting him serve in the unit, and then you're sending

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Speaker 1: him back, So there's, um, there can be some exchange

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Speaker 1: of lessons learned as well. You know, I remember Todd said, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, when he came back from his tour there,

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Speaker 1: he said, the biggest lesson I learned was relationships. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't about like, you know, cool guy blowing down

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Speaker 1: doors and shooting people in the face. He said, it

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Speaker 1: was about the importance of maintaining and building relationships. So

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a little takeaway from that. As far

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Speaker 1: as what happened in Benghazi with a different this is

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Speaker 1: a different marine UM named Jolly Tate, as was in

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Speaker 1: the Military dot Com article names him who was awarded

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Speaker 1: a Distinguished Service Cross for his actions at Benghazi. So

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Speaker 1: another marine who was UM serving in the unit was

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Speaker 1: one of two unit members who responded to what happened

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Speaker 1: in Benghazi, and they got to the n X after

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Speaker 1: the initial attack was over at the embassy, they got

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Speaker 1: to the annex just around I think at the just

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Speaker 1: as the mortars were falling on the on the compound.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think there's a discrepancy. I think what

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Speaker 1: happened was that there was an injured GRS UH service member.

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Speaker 1: So GRS. What is the c I A protective staff

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Speaker 1: guys that you can go back what two interviews back

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Speaker 1: and listen to our podcast with UM Tom Pacora, who

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Speaker 1: was one of those c I A protective guys and

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Speaker 1: what you learn all about what they do. Um. One

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Speaker 1: of them was injured up on the rooftop um from

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Speaker 1: the mortar that fell and killed Glenn Doherty UH, another

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Speaker 1: GRS guy, former Navy seal who we knew UM. I

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Speaker 1: believe the marine, the marine who was serving as a

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Speaker 1: Jaysak operator, tied that injured GRS dude to his back

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Speaker 1: like with rope as I understand it, and climbed down

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Speaker 1: the ladder carrying him down. I think the bodies of

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Speaker 1: the dead were thrown off of the roof to get

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Speaker 1: them down to the bottom. Now we we can ask

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Speaker 1: UM Chris Paranto and get to the bottom of that one.

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Speaker 1: But I believe that's where the screpancy is. I think

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Speaker 1: the dead were dropped to the bottom to get them

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Speaker 1: down off the roof, and I think the guy who

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Speaker 1: was injured was carried down. Interesting, all right, so that

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Speaker 1: someone answers it. Maybe Chris Berrono could give a full

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Speaker 1: answer to that, since we talked to him regularly. And

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Speaker 1: I guess that's it. The only other thing that I

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Speaker 1: was wondering before we get over to David Richardson or

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Speaker 1: not wondering. I think for the listeners, since you're gonna be,

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Speaker 1: you know, an integral part of this podcast, people might

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Speaker 1: be wondering your background, Dennis and what you've done. And

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Speaker 1: uh so I went to college for production stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: went to the Connecticut School of Broadcasting to further that along.

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Speaker 1: I've been at Serious x M. I know you were

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Speaker 1: there for quite a while. Um so we probably crossed

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Speaker 1: paths years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you wouldn't. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not like either of us stand out, but I

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Speaker 1: mean I live but I also know uh Ron Bennington,

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Speaker 1: which which I worked on The Bennington Show, which was

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Speaker 1: a blast. So if Ron's listening, thank you for the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Um and then I was over at CBS Sports Radio

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Speaker 1: for three and a half years. I want to say,

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Speaker 1: and then really, um, live sports radio is a whole

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Speaker 1: another animal, as we've talked off air, so getting used

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Speaker 1: to that. And then I worked with Taz, the former

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Speaker 1: professional wrestler. I did his live daily video and audio show,

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Speaker 1: which we turned into he gets mad if you say

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Speaker 1: podcast because it's not a podcast because it's live, but

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Speaker 1: his live audio video. So I did the turnaround for that,

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Speaker 1: and that was an opportunity that was otherworldly. So I

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Speaker 1: was doing that and then so the ad for this applied,

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Speaker 1: got the gig and here we are. So that's what

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Speaker 1: got me to right here right now. Awesome, happy to

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Speaker 1: be a board. By the way, I should I feel

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Speaker 1: like I should mention that, oh yeah, man, now this

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Speaker 1: is cool and and I'm glad they have someone of

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Speaker 1: your experience, you know, taking over. I told Nick I

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Speaker 1: wanted this transition to be as seamless as possible. So

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Speaker 1: hopefully I can filly in shoes for the fans listening.

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Speaker 1: If I can't, feel free to to let me know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they would. Can they Do you have Twitter?

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Speaker 1: And I do have Twitter? I do it. I see,

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Speaker 1: I'm not very active. I'll be active with the with

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Speaker 1: the show's Twitter and um Instagram obviously, but my own

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Speaker 1: personal Twitter is at Dennis Underscore Jones four four because

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Speaker 1: there's forty three other Dennis Jones and the Instagram is

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Speaker 1: the same. So Dennis Underscore Jones four four. Cool man. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, excited to have you on board. And right

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Speaker 1: now we're going to get over to David Richardson his

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Speaker 1: new book once again, his War Story. Uh so, let's

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Speaker 1: get right into it with David joining us in studio.

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Speaker 1: In studio with us for the first time. David Richardson,

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Speaker 1: marine combat veteran painter and the author of his novel

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Speaker 1: War Story, which is based around a marine and an

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Speaker 1: Iraqi Defense Forces lieutenant colonel willing to put their lives

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Speaker 1: on the line and come together in a pursuit for

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Speaker 1: an ideal. And the interesting thing about this book is

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Speaker 1: it's like two guys from completely separate cultures coming together

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Speaker 1: through war. Indeed, and it seems like the American might

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Speaker 1: loosely be based off you as a painter. And uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you know, full disclosure, most first novels you may

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Speaker 1: be able to test this form autobio autobiographical. This one's

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Speaker 1: probably And the reason is, you know, you start writing

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Speaker 1: and you've got a bunch of stuff you want to dump, uh,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of get it out in the first

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Speaker 1: novel that way, your second, third, fourth, and fifth novels

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Speaker 1: are actually fiction rather than so much heavy autobiography autobiography,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it is autobiographical, uh, and some of the

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Speaker 1: most of the characters are based on real people. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a good thing though, I mean writing fiction

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Speaker 1: and when you write, when you write fiction, to draw

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Speaker 1: on your own experiences rather than you know, and I've

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Speaker 1: done both of course, but um as opposed to like

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Speaker 1: doing research. A lot of novelists go out and do

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Speaker 1: tons and tons of research and pour that into your book.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, doesn't it bring something special to it

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Speaker 1: when you're drawing in your own personal experiences and observations. Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: indeed it does. And I think there's because there's a

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Speaker 1: tone that you can give it. Essentially, you can people

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Speaker 1: can read between the lines when it's your own experience

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Speaker 1: because you give it that tone. Um. And I was

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Speaker 1: chating with somebody the other day and one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest bestseller genres out there is, uh, like young adult fiction.

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Speaker 1: And there's guys my age writing young adult fiction. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how they pull that off so or how

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Speaker 1: people read it at our age? Yeah, yeah, how people

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Speaker 1: read it? So I don't know. But I could read

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Speaker 1: my book I think, you know, and get something from

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Speaker 1: it at the age I am. Um. So yeah. I

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Speaker 1: think having lived it helped me lend a tone and

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Speaker 1: allows people to kind of read between the lines and

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Speaker 1: match things up. Some things I left a lot out,

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Speaker 1: but I think that part that I left out gets

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Speaker 1: in there by inference. Had I used a lot of

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Speaker 1: adjectives verbs and been a little bit more wordy, probably

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Speaker 1: would have been eight hundred pages and nobody would have

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Speaker 1: read it. So I chopped it down to four hundred,

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Speaker 1: got rid of the adjectives and adverbs, and that's what

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Speaker 1: you got. And you were saying to me prior to

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Speaker 1: us recording, there's a reason that you chose not to

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Speaker 1: do a memo or not to do an autobiography. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the reason I didn't do an autobiography was because

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Speaker 1: it was my first foray into writing, and I kind

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Speaker 1: of wanted to show that I could. I could write

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Speaker 1: a novel, which is uh a lot harder than writing

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Speaker 1: an autobiography. And there's a this is a golden fleece novel,

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially have hero that goes away, uh and

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Speaker 1: he comes back with an answer to a question, or

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Speaker 1: whether it's gold he comes back, whether whatever, he comes

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Speaker 1: back with a question. It's hard to build uh that

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Speaker 1: in a novel. It's much easier to write a linear memoir. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, having not written before, I was afraid

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Speaker 1: if I wrote an autobiography, Uh, it would have been

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Speaker 1: something like you know, the autobiography of Dave Richardson. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know subtitle who Gives a Damn? Uh. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted people to actually read the thing and get through it.

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Speaker 1: I tried to make it a page turner. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I wrote a novel. Vice. A memoir was the

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Speaker 1: cover drawn by you, because I know your background and

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Speaker 1: art so so indeed it was the cover, the great cover.

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Speaker 1: We thank you the cover. Um. I. When I was

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Speaker 1: in Ramadi, the first time I went on patrol, I

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Speaker 1: looked up to see a billboard painted on what looked

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Speaker 1: to me like a piece of plywood of a man

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Speaker 1: hoisting a barbell over his head. Uh. And over the

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Speaker 1: months that billboard just disintegrated, essentially from random gunfire. So

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Speaker 1: when I came back, I wrote the book. Somebody read

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Speaker 1: the book and they said you should do paintings of

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Speaker 1: muscle Man, and I kind of scratched my head. And

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Speaker 1: the next day I called him back and I said,

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Speaker 1: I got it. I'm gonna do muscle Man, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do it in a series of three paintings. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna have the one I saw in January of two

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Speaker 1: thousand six that wasn't very shot up, the one from

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Speaker 1: two thousand or March two thousand six, which is that

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Speaker 1: one on the cover, which is kind of shot up,

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Speaker 1: and then the one from May of two thousand six,

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Speaker 1: which is essentially there wasn't much left of it. So

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Speaker 1: I painted it and then eventually I put it on

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Speaker 1: the cover of the novel. As a novelist, what was

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Speaker 1: I think it's kind of clear on one sense, but

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Speaker 1: there's clearly some sort of alliteration you were going towards with, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know that that it disintegrates over time? Oh indeed, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then there's two there's two pieces of that, so uh,

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Speaker 1: it disintegrated over time, which kind of showed what was

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Speaker 1: happening in Iraq overall, but what what was happening specifically

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Speaker 1: in Ramadi between probably the summer two thousand five or

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Speaker 1: late two thousand four, right on through the Sunni awakening,

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Speaker 1: uh soon after I left in late two thousand six.

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Speaker 1: But there's also another piece of that. The Great Gatsby

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Speaker 1: uh Dr Eckelberg sign got with the glasses. He's he's

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Speaker 1: a he's a eye doctor. And as they're driving out

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Speaker 1: to Long Island, I think it is, there's that sign

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Speaker 1: staring at them, and it's mentioned a couple of times

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Speaker 1: by f Scott Scott Fitzgerald. I didn't realize I had

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Speaker 1: used that until later I realized, Oh, yeah, that's the

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Speaker 1: that's the parallel. So yeah, two different things, one Ramadi

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Speaker 1: disintegrating any other the Great Gatsby. I had, you know,

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Speaker 1: a similar experience with miss Wull and going there in

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Speaker 1: two thousand five and it was pretty beat up, and

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Speaker 1: then going back in two thousand nine and it was

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Speaker 1: really beat up. And now I haven't been back there since.

427
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: But I mean, we all know what happened in missoul

428
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: I mean that the place is just leveled. Now. I

429
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: don't think we're gonna have the Vietnam experience that John

430
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: McCain had. We would go back to Hanoi and you know,

431
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 1: it actually looks decent, and that's not gonna happen in

432
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: the next thirty years. I think it's gonna be torn

433
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: up for a while. I've often imagined, you know, if

434
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, you and I flew over there for a vacation,

435
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: you know what it would look like. It's definitely not

436
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: what our grandfathers or my father would have seen if

437
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: he had gone back to say Berlin, Berlin in you know,

438
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, where they had actually cleaned it up

439
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: from what it was in nineteen or uh, Japan for

440
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 1: that matter. But yeah, we're not gonna experience that. I

441
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: think it's gonna stay like it is, which is kind

442
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: of sad actually. To rewind a little bit, can you

443
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your own experience, how like,

444
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: how did this journey begin that eventually led to the

445
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: novel with you joining the Marine Corps and uh so,

446
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: um I joined the Marine Corps in nineteen ninety one.

447
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: I was actually painting in Chicago. Um I went to

448
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: the Army and uh they said, well, we can't guarantee

449
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: that you know, we can you'll you'll be carrying a

450
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: rifle in combat. I want the Navy. They kind of

451
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 1: gave me a little bit of the run around, and

452
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: I went to the Marine Corps and they said, we're

453
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: the kind of guy we're looking for. So I joined

454
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. I was still painting when when I

455
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: was in the Marine Corps, which my peers found somewhat odd.

456
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 1: But what's what's different about that is over time they

457
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: all kind of accepted it. It was like Richards has

458
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: been in an oddball. Uh, he's a pretty good marine

459
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: paints like Private Joker, Yeah, a little bit like that.

460
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: So and they kind of accepted that. Uh. And as

461
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: time went on, you know, I've ended up. Uh. Just

462
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: the book takes begins as I get to the jor

463
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: or this character gets to the George Washington University where

464
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: he is a professor of Naval science, which is a

465
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: high fluting term because I don't have an advanced degree.

466
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: And I was kind of chuckled when I looked at

467
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: my card and it said I was a professor. I

468
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: was just a guy who had read a lot of books. Uh.

469
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: And so I taught there. And that's right when the

470
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: war was kicking off. And like most Marines, most rangers

471
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: s guys in the second everyone when there's a war

472
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: on they want to be there, so Uh. The autobiographical

473
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: part of the novel is where I pick up and

474
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 1: he's trying to get to war, and he's painting and

475
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: showing his work in Washington, d C. And he runs

476
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: a foul with uh some art galleries that owe him money.

477
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: So he goes and gets a lawyer and he goes

478
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 1: on and eventually he goes to Campbell June and then

479
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: goes onto the war. Also in the first part of

480
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: the novel, I introduced the character of Colonel Abdul Majid,

481
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: who I knew Magid, and Mage told me what happened

482
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: to him before we met, all the way back to

483
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: the eighties when they were in the Iran I Rock War,

484
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: then the first Gulf War, uh, and then what I call,

485
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: you know, the Wars of nine eleven. So he kind

486
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: of told me that and I kind of captured that

487
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: in the first half of the book, and it goes

488
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: on from there. We meet and it would kind of

489
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: become fast friends and kind of get the mission done.

490
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: So then what was your your experience again that bleeds

491
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: into this novel um in Ramadhi working with mad so

492
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: that that's my experience with them, and of course there's

493
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: a big cultural divide, and my experience with them was

494
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: they were undermanned, undertrained, and undersupported. And I'd be I

495
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: mean by that that the war, as all wars since

496
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: UH World War Two, in the Korean War, wars are

497
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: always political, but I think after World War Two and

498
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: I honestly believe the Korean War is the real first

499
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: modern or postmodern war because it is so political. There's

500
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: many political considerations we had to we had to look

501
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: at in Korea that we didn't have to look at

502
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: in World War Two. So there was a lot of

503
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: political things going on in UH. The Iraqi army, the

504
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: struggle between the Sunnes, the Koords, and the Shias. That

505
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: was always a dynamic. Masi was a professional soldier UH,

506
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: so I was able to relate to him on that level.

507
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: And I was also able to relate to him because

508
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: he was he was struggling so hard to keep his

509
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: unit together. So that dynamic all kind of came together,

510
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: and there was there was one odd thing I think

511
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: about mag and I um ms was surprised that I

512
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: could talk about the Old Testament and we don't realize

513
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: how much the UH UH Muslim culture is actually steeped

514
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: in the Old Testament. And we had a conversation one

515
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: time that could would have may have gotten bad if

516
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: I had been a religious fanatic, or wouldn't have gone

517
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 1: anywhere had I not known anything about the Old Testament,

518
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: And that focused on who was the sacrifice of Abraham?

519
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: Was it Ishmael as he said, or was it Isaac

520
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: as you know, essentially Christianity and Judaism believes. I didn't

521
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: make it a big deal. He said it was Ishmael,

522
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: and I left it at that, So you kind of

523
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: get the dynamic. And we both liked to I smoked cigars,

524
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: he smoked cigarettes, and we both rank tea. Uh So

525
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: we kind of had a pretty good dynamic. And one

526
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: thing I never did to him, uh I never demeaned

527
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: him in any way because they weren't his unit wasn't

528
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: that great. That's what we were there for. And I

529
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: think he sensed that it was kind of like reading

530
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: between the lines. I understood his plight. I don't know how.

531
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: I think it was from reading so much about the

532
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: Confederate Army, probably, but I understood his plight with an undermanned,

533
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: under equipped army that had too big of a mission

534
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: to complete. They had that incredible amount of responsibility to

535
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: try to stop their country from coming apart of the seams.

536
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: But as you said, like and I had, I was

537
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: having this conversation with a friend yesterday. Their government was

538
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: so corrupt. They were getting no bullets, they were getting

539
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: no fuel, not even food and water. Like how I

540
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: mean you're you were a marine, you know, you know

541
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: without a logistics line, how long is the fight gonna last? Right?

542
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: They didn't have any of that. And that really comes

543
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: out in the book, by the way, And in fact,

544
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: that's the mystery in the book. There's a thing about

545
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: American dollar bills. And remember the palette of hundred dollar

546
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: bills that got lost, the one that was drawn from

547
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: the federal reserve. And I think I calculated the money

548
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: it was like it was it was, I can't remember.

549
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: It was trillions of dollars. They just got lost on

550
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: a palette somewhere, got lost, right, and it floated into

551
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: the rack. Kind know what happened to it. But yeah,

552
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: they had horrible problems. There were there there were warehouses

553
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: full of gear that we had given them that they

554
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: never saw. I don't know what happened to it. There

555
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: were there were vehicles coming into the country that nobody

556
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: accounted for. So uh, I don't know what the parallel is,

557
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: but imagining it just can't imagine what it's just flooding

558
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: someplace with a with a ton of cash and a

559
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: ton of equipment. They had no way to absorb it,

560
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: and it really didn't have the culture to absorb it. Uh.

561
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: So they really struggled with that getting paid. There's a

562
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: whole thing about ghost Jundy, which essentially means June do

563
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: you have on the books? Uh, you still have on

564
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: the books although they're dead or they deserted, and commanders

565
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: twelve year old daughter is on the payroll right right,

566
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: so you're collecting the money for him. And there was

567
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: really no account ability. They didn't have uh you know,

568
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: they couldn't go to the cash machine. They had to

569
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: drive to Baghdad to sandbag full of money. You remember

570
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: the bag full of money. So they would come back

571
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: and they would have these bag full of moneys and

572
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: other advisors. I wasn't really like this, uh, you know,

573
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: would really dig into the ship about that. I never

574
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: said a word, And it's not like I condoned all

575
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: that stuff. Look, it was a different culture. They had

576
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: their own way of doing business. We've got our own

577
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: way of doing business that looks kind of funny to foreigners,

578
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: and some of it can be viewed as corruption and

579
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 1: nepotism and all that. They had their own version of it.

580
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: I never dug into it. I just let it be.

581
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: I tried to get him to reduce his ghost you

582
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: any that has comes out in the book, But I

583
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: didn't criticize for him for that, and I didn't demean

584
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: him for that. Well, what was the mission you guys

585
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: were trying to accomplish? Because this was early on the war,

586
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: you said, right like two thousand four, it was two

587
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: thousand six, So two six. We're just trying to get

588
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: our head out of our asset. That's really what we're

589
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: trying to do. There's this there's a great scene in

590
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: Apocalypse Now where Martin Sheen shows up and he's at

591
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: this base in Vietnam and there's a broken down helicopter

592
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: and there's some playboy bunnies in there, and they're they're

593
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: kind of stranded, you know, so no telling what's going on,

594
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: and and Martin Sheen's walking in the rain and he's

595
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: smoking a cigarette or something and he says to some

596
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: trooper He's like, hey, who's in charge here? And looks

597
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: at he goes ship. Sir, I thought you were that.

598
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: There was a little bit of that going on in

599
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: Ramadi when we got there. So we we flew in

600
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: and our mission was to team up with train and

601
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: fight alongside the Iraqi soldiers and specifically Colonel Magid's battalion.

602
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: So we went to uh Ramadi. We weren't in campermanty.

603
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: We actually outside the fence and that's what we did

604
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: in Ramadi, and then we moved to Fellusiam. And when

605
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: I say that was our mission, uh, no one told

606
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: us how to do that mission. And in our case,

607
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: we found out we were going in October, we kept

608
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: waiting for the team him to get together or the

609
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: band to get back together. Uh. And we didn't get

610
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: together till the first of December, and we left on

611
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: twelve January. So there's only six weeks that my team

612
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: got to know each other and we flew in and

613
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: did this mission. Uh. And then the other thing is

614
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: no one really told us what to do. I mean,

615
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: of course I was a professional soldier, I was a major,

616
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: but I remember my lieutenants looking at me and saying, sir,

617
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: what the fuck you know, how are we gonna do this? Uh?

618
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: And I said, look, man, you've been trained by the

619
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: Marine Corps. You've gone to the basic school. All of

620
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: us know the basics of being a riflemen. We will

621
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: get this done. You know the fundamentals of rifle markmanship,

622
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: and that's what we're gonna use. And you know, and

623
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, instead of looking at me like I had

624
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: a dick going on my forehead, they kind of gave

625
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: me the thumbs up and said Roger, sir, that sounds

626
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: like a reasonable plan. But that was our plan. That's it.

627
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: That was gonna be my next question. Actually, and I

628
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: don't mean this as a as a cheap shot at

629
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: the Marines by any stretch of the imagination. But there

630
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: were a lot of units, I mean, the bulk of

631
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: our military. They went over there to train, equip, advise

632
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: their around key counterparts. And this was traditionally a special

633
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: Forces mission. You have highly trained special Forces team to

634
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: go and do these missions. And because of the the

635
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: numbers of Iraqis, we were working with the conventional forces,

636
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 1: conventional American forces, UM subsumed the bulk of that mission,

637
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to ask you what that was

638
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: like to have marines doing this. I mean, was it

639
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: something that they had a difficult time adapting to or

640
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: did they I noticed that the younger conventional troops jumped

641
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: into it really easily, and it was kind of the older,

642
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: institutionalized ones that had problems with it. Yeah. So I

643
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: think you're getting the difference between a tight ass marine

644
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: and I mean, you've known the type of your rangers,

645
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: you know the types, and somebody that can swing a

646
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, and you know, kind of make it

647
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: happen in a fuzzy situation. And there were varying degrees

648
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: of that in the Marine Corps. Some of us were

649
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: kind of I mean I was a little bit of

650
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: an oddball anywhere. Anyway. I was a painter, you know. Uh,

651
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: and I went I kind of did this mission, and

652
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: you know, later on people told me like, hey, we're

653
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: just heard about you know, what a good job he did.

654
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: I kind of scratched my head. I thought, well, shot,

655
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: I was just there doing my job. Some guys couldn't

656
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: hack it. Some guys went over the top about trying

657
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: to stop corruption, you know, or just training the Iraqis

658
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: and letting them go out into combat by themselves. I

659
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: saw that in both the Army and the Marine Corps.

660
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: So that was a lot personality driven, and there wasn't

661
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: not There wasn't a whole lot of selection, like who's

662
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: cookie enough to go get this done and make it

663
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: happen right, Because if you're looking at a guy that's

664
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: very concerned about his career getting the right slot, you know,

665
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 1: whether it be a battalon XO or the operations officer, uh,

666
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: overly concerned about those things, he's probably not gonna do

667
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: real well. But if you take a guy who's maybe

668
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: done a few shady things, whether it's inside the Marine

669
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: Corps outside the Marine Corps, put him in that situation

670
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: and he's and he's mature. Hell, I was fourty years old.

671
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: We just got it done, and we kind of made

672
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: it up as we went. Some of those guys us

673
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: who are like all dress right, dress like they just

674
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: can't handle the like, oh my god, these guys don't

675
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: pull security. You know that, we can't. We haven't shoot

676
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: their a ks. They're not on paper. These dudes don't

677
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: even have compasses. What the fuck? Yeah, look there, they

678
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: can load and shoot their rifle. As long as they're

679
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: not shooting at each other, shooting all those civilians. We

680
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 1: point them in the general direction and get them going. Uh.

681
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: You know, they wore six different types of uniforms. Uh.

682
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: You know that freaks some people out. They didn't pt

683
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: Did you ever see him doing jumping jack's. There's a

684
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: video online that shows tenner rocket troops and bless their hearts, Yeah,

685
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: they're all. I guarantee if I said right now, if

686
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: I got us all in formation, we could all do

687
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: pretty much the same type of jumping jack They ten

688
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: different Iraqi soldiers did ten different types of jumping jumping jack's.

689
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: They're just not part of their culture. But you know,

690
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: kind of going on in patrol, picking yourself up a

691
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: chicken and carrying it back and coming back with a

692
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: watermelon and come back with the guy you were looking for.

693
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: They could do that, And that's all I really wanted.

694
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: I was not trying to make the Marines. I wasn't

695
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: trying to make up army rangers uh or or Navy seals.

696
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: I was there to train them to get these basic

697
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: things done. Despite the fact that they lacked a lot

698
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: of the gear. Uh. I mean, you know, they didn't

699
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: have any rpts. All they had were pistols and a

700
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: K forty. We didn't give them grenades. Uh so we

701
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: didn't have any of that stuff. You know, we had

702
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: plenty of that type of gear and they didn't. Most

703
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: of them didn't have, uh, sappy plates. Eventually they got

704
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: some type of savvy plates. Um some of the mostly officers,

705
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say most, A lot of the officers took

706
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: their sappy plates out and that's where they put the

707
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: American money or the money they got extra from the

708
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: mod by the way, which was definitely uh the problem

709
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: if you got shot in the chess and you don't

710
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: have your sappy plate and instead you had, you know,

711
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: American money in there or Iraqi money whatever. Uh So, yeah,

712
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: if you're real tight ass, it was not the job

713
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: for you. I guess what I'm trying to say. And

714
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: I wasn't a real tight ass, and I think most

715
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: of my buddies could attest the originally wasn't too much

716
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: of a tight ask. So then what was the genesis

717
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: of the novel? I mean, this was an experience you

718
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: had that obviously, you know, it meant a lot to you.

719
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: It resonated with you, probably an important moment in your

720
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: life that you wanted to capture in a book. Yeah,

721
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 1: indeed it did. Uh. So I had had an art

722
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: show here in New York City that didn't go how

723
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: I wanted it to go. So I decided, I'm gonna

724
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: promote my paintings. I'm gonna write a book about it.

725
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: I got about a month into the book and I said,

726
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: the book is not going to be about promoting your paintings.

727
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: The book is going to be about something else. And

728
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: I kind of went off on a stream of consciousness.

729
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: Eventually I figured out I was trying to answer the

730
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: question for myself, a question that probably drove me into

731
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: the service and got me initially as a kid, got

732
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: me interested in the military, and war drove me into

733
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: the service. And I've been trying to answer, which is

734
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: why is man fascinated by war? If you go to

735
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: the toy store right now, about a quarter of the toys,

736
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: whether it's camouflaged as Captain Captain America or it's an

737
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: actual army, men are about some type of warfare. Same

738
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: with games, same with films, same with literature. We are

739
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: fascinated by war. I tried to get to the bottom

740
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: of that in my novel. I think I did. Actually

741
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: it took a lot of thinking. I did not try

742
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: to answer the question why is war so horrible? Uh?

743
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: You know, why does man kill man? Those are questions,

744
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: you know, why do we go to war? Those are

745
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: questions asked by somebody else, and I think, in many

746
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: cases satisfactorily answered by somebody else. I picked that question

747
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: because it's a question that I had asked myself kind

748
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: of unconsciously over the years. Uh, And I'd never see asked.

749
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: No one ever asked why are we fascinated by war?

750
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: I think we're afraid to ask it because once you

751
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: ask the question, first of all, you have to acknowledge

752
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: that indeed we are, and it's hard to um deny that.

753
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: And then answering the question, you start opening some union

754
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: doors that uh, in some cases might be better off

755
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: left shut. And as horrible as war is, and we

756
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: all know it's horrible, you know, just stating the obvious,

757
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: there's still this undeniable romanticism around it. Right, We're we're

758
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: fascinated by it. And the reason is, and this is

759
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: not a spoiler, I think is because just like the

760
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: Medal of Honor winner I met the other day. I

761
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: went back and I read about what he had done,

762
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, I don't know if I

763
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: would have done that myself. But there are moments of

764
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 1: UH courage demonstrated in war, and wars likely our most

765
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: ferocious and greatest I don't want to call it game

766
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: but but but endeavor, But there are unselfish acts of

767
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: courage in war that lends dignity to the dung heap

768
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: that is war. That is what we're fascinated with. We're

769
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: fascinated with young guys that will get up, get off

770
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 1: their ass being shot at, and go save their buddy. Um.

771
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: And that's what this guy that I met the other

772
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: day did. We're fascinated by men like Chestie Puller who

773
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: repeatedly UH demonstrate leadership in combat, sustained leadership in combat.

774
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: Both of those things are heroic deeds. And that's why

775
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: we we We keep reading about war, and we keep

776
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: looking at it on TV. We keep playing games of war,

777
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: we keep reading about war, and we keep playing, we

778
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,479
Speaker 1: keep playing with toys about war. I think it's true now,

779
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: maybe than ever before, there's this search in our society

780
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: for authenticity, and in war there's this authentic experience that

781
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: there's nowhere to hide. You have those do or die

782
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: moments where you have to throw yourself in front of

783
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: the bullets. You have to go and do these brave things.

784
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: And it's not like there's a place you can retreat to.

785
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: It's it's it's like you either get it done or

786
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: you don't, and you and if you fuck it up

787
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: or if something goes wrong, you die. There's a fun

788
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: reality to it that doesn't exist elsewhere in society. Right

789
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: in the boxing match, chances are you'll come out alive,

790
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: and a football match, chances are you gonna come If

791
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: you lose, you're still gonna come out ahead of the

792
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: rest of society as far as payment goes. UM. In combat,

793
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: when you suck it up, uh, you die or worse

794
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: you enable or or you make a mistake where somebody

795
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: else gets killed, and then probably worse than that is

796
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: actually having to kill somebody else. Um. We don't realize

797
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: that we actually have an aversion. There's probably two percent

798
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: of people out there on either end. One's a psychopath

799
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: and and and one's just a what we call a

800
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: sheep dog that are willing that the killing other people

801
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: doesn't bother them. One will do it for the good

802
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: of society, the other one does it for the detriment society.

803
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: Most of the rest of us to end up in

804
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: the military, we're kind of somewhere in between there where

805
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: killing people regardless of how well we're trained to do

806
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: it still bothers us. I don't know how we got

807
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: got into that, but it's interesting though, because I don't know.

808
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: If I've had conversations with guys who have been on

809
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: this podcast off air, and I don't know if you

810
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: have Jack, you know, I'm obviously not gonna say who

811
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: they are, but they were like very excited every time

812
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: they killed someone. They've told me that they're like they

813
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: loved it. I mean, I think a lot of them

814
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: are full of ship, to tell you the truth, and

815
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: this is in private conversation completely off air, I would

816
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: say they are. And thus, for those two percent, if

817
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: you're every David Grossman's book, he breaks it down into

818
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: two percent on either end, the psychopaths and the guys

819
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: that are actually trying to protect society. So maybe they

820
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 1: were part of that two percent. Possibly. I know, for me,

821
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: the first time we killed somebody the first time. The

822
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: first time put it this away. The first time I

823
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: fired my weapon, there was somebody dead on the other end. Uh,

824
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: it bothered the ship out of me. I was trotting home.

825
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, somebody is going home to know,

826
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: or somebody's gonna come home to right, or Dad's not

827
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: gonna come home tonight. That's a bottom line. There's gonna

828
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: be somebody eating alone, grieving tonight. And it bothered the

829
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: ship out of me. The times after that, it really

830
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: didn't bother me so much. But the first time it

831
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 1: did really bother me. And and that told me something

832
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: about myself, that told me that I'm humane at least

833
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: told me I'm not a psychopath, because it did bother

834
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: me that bad. Yeah, the first time, or well, seeing

835
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: terrorists killed never bothered me, to tell you the truth,

836
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: but seeing the civilians caught in the crossfire is something

837
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: that really haunted me and still does to this day. Um.

838
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean in terms of learning something about yourself,

839
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: I mean that I was able to, like to stand

840
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: over bodies of dead terrorists me like fuck them. You know. Indeed,

841
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: it's like, is there something broken inside of me that uh, well,

842
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: you know, so The next day after we killed this guy,

843
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: found out that he was covered with uh gunpower residue,

844
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, it's kind of like the

845
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: clinics wood when he when in there, I lawed Josie

846
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: Wales when he uh spits on the guy's forehead he's

847
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: just killed, and he center says, I'll kim, Well, you know,

848
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 1: we were both uniformed soldiers and we understood. We go

849
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: go to a battlefield just like the bad guys. Everyone

850
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: knows someone's going home in a body bagg like. There's

851
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: no surprise there, you know, and it better be him. Yeah,

852
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: that's why we train like we train. Uh So when

853
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: you watch somebody go from full brain matter to dead

854
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: and a matter of seconds, it is you find out

855
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: something about yourself. If you enjoy doing it, you're either

856
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: one of those two, your psychopath, or you're one of

857
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: the cheap wolves that naturally protects us on and doesn't

858
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: most of us, I think fall and that other range somewhere.

859
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: It didn't really bother me to see the guys killed

860
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: that needed it. It did bother me to see the

861
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: folks that it was questionable whether and I think a

862
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: lot of those people who brag about killing people, or

863
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: talk about how happy it made them to kill people,

864
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: or in a lot of ways camouflaging what's going on

865
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. If you think they're full of ship

866
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: and they never did it, or they are camouflage, they're

867
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: cracking up with PTSD. They have a lot of residual problems,

868
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: and this is a way to kind of keep people

869
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: on the outside of that. I mean, as you know, though,

870
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: there's there's guys, like I said, we've been on the

871
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: show that you've personally interviewed that their book is I

872
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: have this many confirmed kills of kidding and it's something

873
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: that they are proud of. I think they're lying to themselves,

874
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, to say that that they're

875
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 1: proud of it. They're happy about it. And there's plenty

876
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: of them, their seals, there's Army rangers who that's you know,

877
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: a big part of their identity. Yeah, I don't know.

878
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't read Chris Kyle's book. Um, I've

879
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: read sections of it while standing in the p X.

880
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: Uh I saw the movie. I think at some point

881
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: you could be trained well enough where it might not bothery.

882
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: But it goes back to my thing. The first time,

883
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: it really bothered the ship out of me. Other times

884
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: it didn't, you know, uh, to see the bodies that

885
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: type of thing, but especially the very first time as

886
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: a shock. Another thing about combat, the first combat, and

887
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: you can attest to this is not that bad. It's

888
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: when you have to go out on patrol the next day, uh,

889
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 1: and the next day and the next day, because first

890
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: of all, getting shot at is kind of exhilarating the

891
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: first time, and then you either get used to it

892
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: or it just bothers you every damn day. It bothered

893
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: me every day was that ship. I gotta go and

894
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: get shot at today and I had to get myself

895
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: out of the rack, put on a happy face or

896
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: some type of face, and go do it again. It's

897
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: also the first time. It's kind of a surprise, you know. Indeed,

898
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: I talked to uh, you know, we interviewed Dale Comstock,

899
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: who's on the current MUSE rescue mission in Panama on

900
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: eight nine, And there are other accounts out there. You

901
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: can read about the guys in manga Dish and they

902
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: talk about how like when they were in the heat

903
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: of it, they were just doing what they were trained

904
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: to do. But then they come back and like they

905
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: get back to the safe area and they're told, you're

906
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: gonna have to go back out there, like we got

907
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: guys missing, you know, we have a follow on mission.

908
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 1: And then it's like, oh, ship, I gotta go back

909
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: into that. And that's when you start getting like, yeah,

910
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: it's it's hard. I mean, you're you're scared and you

911
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: got to go back. But that's where the training kicks in. Um,

912
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: particularly if you're leading uh guys, you have to get

913
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: you got people looking at you, got people looking at

914
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what the bravest I ever was in

915
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 1: combat was when we took a lieutenant colonel on patrol

916
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: with this one day. Suddenly he was responsible for everything

917
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: and I didn't give a shit about anything. That day.

918
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, the burden of being the senior

919
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: guy on the spot was suddenly lifted from my shoulder,

920
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: and that day I was a brave son of a bit.

921
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: So that's probably the one day, I mean, other than

922
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: having to say damn, I gotta go do this again. Well,

923
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: you know, it makes you brave though, to have that

924
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: burden on you because you're not thinking about yourself, You're

925
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: thinking about the men that you're in charge of right,

926
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: And I tried to weave that into the book. I

927
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: tried to show kind of the burden of command. If

928
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: I wasn't in command, I was, I was, I was

929
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: an officer in charge of a mid team. I tried

930
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 1: to show that in the book. Anybody who's done it before,

931
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,479
Speaker 1: we'll be able to to see that in the book.

932
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: And I think, once again, since I wrote it from

933
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: personal experience, those who haven't can kind of read between

934
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: the lines and kind of sense it in the book.

935
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: A buddy of mine read it and he told me

936
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: it was entertaining, and he's been in command a couple

937
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: of times, which was actually a pretty good compliment because

938
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 1: I know my buddy, he would have tore my ask

939
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: if there was a bunch of bullshit in there. So

940
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: he said it was entertaining, which I was glad to

941
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: hear that. Because I didn't write the book for uh

942
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: military personnel. I wrote the book for the general population.

943
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons I kept the art piece

944
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: in there. That's one of the reasons I tried to

945
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: ask answer the or ask and then answer or allude

946
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 1: to um why man is fascinated with war? I put

947
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: some mystery in there. I told a lot about the Iraqis.

948
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: I tried to put it all that into to make

949
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: it palatable to civilians overall. So that's who I wrote

950
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: the book for. And you wrote the book from the

951
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: perspective of these two protagonists switching off indeed idea. So

952
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: the first half of the book is Major Clay steer

953
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: Fourth says marine Corps. Then next switches to kind of

954
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: colonel I love doing maid Iraqi Army. And then halfway

955
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: to through the book they meet, and then they go

956
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: on from there and what's interesting about it? And and

957
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: this is this some could some could say I was

958
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: an innovative, others could say I was just not that

959
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 1: smart of a guy. Uh. The magi part is written

960
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: in the third person. The Major Clay Steerforth is written

961
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: in the first person. So when they finally do meet,

962
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: the reader kind of has a leg up on Steerforth.

963
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: The reader knows who mag is and what he's about.

964
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: Steerforth meets him for the first time and knows nothing

965
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: about him, So in the back of the reader's mind

966
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: he's like, I got something up on Steerforth because I

967
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: know who is And when they kind of kind of

968
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: unfolds from there. Uh, But that's kind of something unique

969
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 1: about the book. And also something unique about the book

970
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: is I don't think anybody's written anything from the Iraqi

971
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 1: point of view. If if you wrote about the war,

972
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: it was likely a memoir, and if it was a memoir,

973
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: you told a about the Iraqis or the Afghansa or

974
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: whoever it was. In this case, you actually hear the

975
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: voice of an Iraqi officer as essentially Colonel Majie told me.

976
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: I tried to recreate it as genuinely as I could.

977
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 1: Uh made up a few things, but what you see

978
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: in the character of the tenant Colonel Magite is from

979
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: conversations between me and Machi in the beginning of the the

980
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: book that says I changed all the names. I didn't.

981
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: I think it's great that you took some time in

982
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: this book to humanize the Iraqi side and in this

983
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: officer you worked with, and to talk about your partnership,

984
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 1: because that is absolutely something that gets glossed over and forgotten.

985
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 1: That I mean, we typically, we being veterans, have a

986
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: tendency to write this. You know, these books and these works,

987
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: it's all about heroic American soldiers waving the flag. But

988
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: there's another there's another side to that. And there were

989
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: these people in Iraq who were, um, you know, they

990
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: didn't get to go home, they didn't rotate home in

991
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: six months. They lived there and they have to deal

992
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: with that ship day in, day out. You know. We

993
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: were of car and I said, we about the Marine Corps.

994
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: Some of the units were very critical when I would say, look,

995
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: they went on leave for two weeks. How the fund

996
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: did they go on leave for two weeks? I'm like, well,

997
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: they've been doing this for two years and we're back home.

998
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: We go on leave for two weeks. Uh, it's blocked

999
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: leave for a bunch of them, a lot of the

1000
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: marine units, possible army. We weren't very sympathetic by that.

1001
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: About that, uh the And one of the things that

1002
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: gave me sympathy for them was it was a specific

1003
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: incident when somebody pointed at me one day and said

1004
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: you guys, and they were referring to me and the

1005
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: around another marine and I essentially said, hey, you see

1006
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: this ecolobe and lanker on anchor on my left breast pocket.

1007
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: I'm one of you. I'm doing what the Marine Corps

1008
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: told me to do no. No, that's the Lawrence of

1009
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: Arabia effect and everyone native. But you're You're exactly right.

1010
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: They thought I was Lawrence of Raby. I'm not on

1011
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: Dave Richardson. You know, I'm a major in the Marine Corps.

1012
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: I I'm not with them, but I'm with you. I'm

1013
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: having to over their training. So you're right, and and

1014
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: but that's what partially gave me sympathy for him. Once again,

1015
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: I never went native, but I knew that they had

1016
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: their side of the story. And when we were when

1017
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: all was said and downe and we were gone, they

1018
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: were going to tell the story, likely as if they

1019
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: won the victory themselves anyhow, So, um, you might as

1020
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: well acknowledge that we worked and fought alongside each other.

1021
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: I don't think we've done a whole lot of that

1022
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: back in the States. Where is your Iraqi counterpart today?

1023
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: Do you know somebody told me he died of throat

1024
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: cancer in missoul Yeah? Recently. The Chief one Officer, Anthony Worsbowski,

1025
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: who was on my team, went back a couple of

1026
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: times after that, and he told me that mas had died.

1027
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 1: Um was an interesting character for many reasons, but the

1028
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: Iraqi chain of command. Wasn't that crazy about Masi because

1029
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: MS essentially out showing them. I have a I have

1030
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: a theory which I put in the book of why

1031
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: his men were so loyal to them, and indeed had

1032
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: to do with money. Um, but he was kind of

1033
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: on the outs anyway. He left the army shortly after

1034
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: and then he went to Missoula, and that's the last

1035
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: I heard of him, which, you know, it's kind of disappointed.

1036
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: I spent essentially, uh, four years of my life right

1037
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: in a book about me and Colonel Machid As it's

1038
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: it's it's a novel, but it's essentially a biography, and

1039
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: to find out that he died and I would likely

1040
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: never see the guy again, it bothershed me. Yeah, I mean,

1041
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: that's sad. He I mean, but he must have been

1042
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: a little bit older than me and you because he

1043
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: served in the Iran Iraq War at the time. He

1044
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: was about forty five forty six is when I met him,

1045
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: so I kind of put his timeline in the book.

1046
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 1: He would have been a lieutenant some somewhere nineteen eighty probably, uh,

1047
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,479
Speaker 1: and he had been awarded for valor there. He told

1048
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: me that in the in the Iran Iraq War, his

1049
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: valet or his batman and what I have to call him,

1050
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: had been shot through the face actually, and in Iraq

1051
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 1: he was missing teeth from it. Hussaining well, who never

1052
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't think he ever shaved, walked around a dirty

1053
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: T shirt, cooked me fish all the time, and had

1054
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: uh wearing flip flops and cammies. I mean, so if

1055
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: you were a tight ass marine and you saw you like,

1056
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: oh my god, I shouldn't I gotta go home, you know,

1057
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, man, this is it's Iraq. So

1058
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: I love those stories here and from from those guys.

1059
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: They would tell you, they'd sit down, they'd refer to

1060
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: it as when I served with the previous regime, all right, right, yeah,

1061
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 1: I just called it the old Iraqi army. Yeah. Yeah.

1062
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: One of them had a story about he was he

1063
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: was on a tank actually, like a T seventy two

1064
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 1: during the two thousand and three invasion, and they pulled

1065
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: their tank into a cave to hide because they're F

1066
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: six teams just swimming all over the head and he

1067
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: was like, that was the scariest night of my life

1068
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: because I thought, you know, missile was just gonna find

1069
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: its wave right into the cave and destroy us. Um

1070
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: the swat team commander I worked with also, he was

1071
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: in the Iran Iraq War, the Gulf War, the two

1072
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 1: thousand three war, and then with us. Well, what's interesting

1073
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: about that is so ten years, fifteen years earlier, we

1074
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: were fighting them and they were on the other side,

1075
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: and we would have killed them and they would have

1076
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: killed us. But there's something about two professional soldiers, media,

1077
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: no hard feelings, all that goes away. We were just

1078
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: trying to kill each other. Yeah, but now we're not

1079
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 1: trying to kill each other. We're working side by side.

1080
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 1: It's kind of like the old John Wayne movie where

1081
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 1: he meets up he's a Union soldier that fought at

1082
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: Shiloh and he meets some Confederate guy and suddenly they're,

1083
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: you know, they're working side by side and miraculously they

1084
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,439
Speaker 1: get along. Well, that's kind of how it is. Well

1085
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: like delving deeper, and I like the whole metaphysics. I

1086
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: don't know if you get into it in your book

1087
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: or not, but do you think it's there's something fucked

1088
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: up about how politicians, you know, they have this beef,

1089
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: so they send a bunch of like blue collar professional

1090
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: soldiers to go and kill each other. You know, like

1091
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: maybe these politicians should just like you know, I don't know,

1092
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: I throw physticuffs. Maybe they should go Uh yeah, that

1093
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: that would probably be a better solution. So speaking of politics,

1094
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: that that may be the reason that I did not

1095
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 1: bring that up in my book. If you read the

1096
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: prelude to the book, it talks about who goes to

1097
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: war in this country, um, and it's you know, they're there.

1098
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: They're a lot of different ethnic groups. The the major

1099
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: one has been the Scots Irish. Uh call um hillbilly

1100
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: is called him, rednecks, call him white trash, American Americans.

1101
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: We got of the white people killed in Vietnam were

1102
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: Scott's Irish. My point is I kept the novel at

1103
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: that level. Uh. And this sounds probably kind of bad,

1104
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 1: and it's probably only in retrospect. I wasn't going to

1105
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 1: give the politicians uh any recognition, whether it was grief

1106
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: or praise. I just took them out of the picture

1107
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: and wrote the novel from our point of view. And realistically,

1108
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't give a ship when you were

1109
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: on the ground in Romani, right, I didn't get I

1110
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: didn't care at all. I had a mission at hand.

1111
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: I knew we were underman, but I wasn't looking for

1112
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: the guy in bagdad of Washington d C. That was

1113
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: responsible for that I had. I had a mission to do,

1114
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: just like mag had a mission to do, and we

1115
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: were stuck with it whether we liked it or not,

1116
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: and we had to do it. So there was no

1117
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: use bitching about it or you know somehow, you know,

1118
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: writing home to you know, the Washington Post and tell

1119
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: them how, you know, funked up it is here. I

1120
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 1: never did any of that stuff. I just stuck with

1121
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: a mission as professional soldiers, and you know, guys that

1122
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: have been drafted and recruited or volunteered have been doing

1123
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: for millennia. All the political stuff is a discussion for

1124
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: another arena. And that goes back to why man's fascinated

1125
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: with war. Man's not fascinated by what by war with

1126
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: because of what poor or great decisions politicians made in war.

1127
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: Man is actually fascinated by war by what the trooper, yeah,

1128
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: the marine, the grunt, the guy from the eighty two,

1129
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: the ranger you know, has doing on the ground. That's

1130
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: why they're fascinated by war. Yeah, they're fascinated by what

1131
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 1: the sergeants are out there doing, and I like the

1132
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: general has almost become like a facsimile that, right. War

1133
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: is kind of written from the general's point of view,

1134
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: The history is kind of written from the general's point

1135
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: of view, but the fascination of war is not there.

1136
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: The fascinating awards actually with the foot soldier, uh, the artilleryman,

1137
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: the pilot. Those guys are actually throwing the lead titanium

1138
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: or whatever have you, mcgrenade downrange. That's who we make

1139
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: the movies about. Yeah. Yeah, you can get a movie.

1140
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: You can squeeze a movie out of MacArthur. You can't

1141
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: squeeze one out of Marshall. You can squeeze one out

1142
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: on Lee and Grant. It's hard to squeeze one out

1143
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: of schwartz Golf. Yeah, but you can squeeze a movie

1144
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: easy out of Grant. Hopefully some of you'll squeeze a

1145
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: movie out of your memoir and my novel. The kind

1146
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: of squeezed one out of My Crystal, But it wasn't Favoraball. Yeah,

1147
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't see it because I was like, yeah,

1148
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how that. Yeah, I didn't know that

1149
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: by the I guess they did. It was a war machine?

1150
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: Was a Netflix film? Was it Brad Pitt? Yes? Yeah,

1151
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: I started to watch a couple of times. I like

1152
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt. In fact, I watched money Ball the other day,

1153
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: which I like money Ball. Yeah. I'm not a sports fan,

1154
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: but I like Moneyball. Uh so. Yeah. And the warm

1155
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: movies that are worth watching by the general public are

1156
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: the ones that are about the dude on the deck,

1157
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: horse soldiers, John Wayne and the Green Berets. What are

1158
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: some of the ones that you like? So my favorite

1159
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: war movie is probably Doss Bolt because it shows the

1160
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: burden of command and it shows the commander making mistakes

1161
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: in command. Uh. Of course. Full Metal Jacket Classic UM

1162
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: Apocalypse Now, I can never watch it enough. I think

1163
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: I've been some of those places in various parts of

1164
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: the world. It's not strictly realistic, you know, in air quotes,

1165
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: but it's a great film. I like it because it's literary.

1166
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: It's based on Joseph Conrad's you know, the Heart of Heart. Uh.

1167
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: I would say probably the best war movie made in

1168
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: the last thirty years, though, is UM other than the

1169
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: series Band of Brothers and Pacific. I'm talking about just

1170
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: a warm movie. I got a hand to Oliver Stone.

1171
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: Oliver Stone fought in Vietnam War, and then when they

1172
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: I recently washed Platoon and I kind of had a

1173
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: hard time getting through it because it's so good. Platoon

1174
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: is a great movie. Uh. Part of the greatness of

1175
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: the movie is due by the way to Dale Die,

1176
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: who was Stone's advisor, and he didn't let Stone take

1177
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: it down the track of you know, we burned villages

1178
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: and killed people. He kind of kept it at a

1179
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: little higher level. But that movie, Platoon is a fantastic

1180
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:21,919
Speaker 1: movie about war and the psychology of conflict within a unit.

1181
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: There's some of the inner inner inner fighting in my book,

1182
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: and I drew some of that Platoon from Platoon. I

1183
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: drew some of it from a movie called The Cross

1184
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: of Iron, and I read the book, which is directed

1185
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: by Sam Peck and Paw who was, by the way,

1186
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 1: a marine and based on a book by a German

1187
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: soldier from World War Two. I haven't seen it. Yeah,

1188
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: The Cross of Iron is outstanding movie. You should watch it.

1189
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: It was one of the first movies where they, you know,

1190
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: use slow motion when dudes were getting shot in that

1191
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: type of thing. It's a great movie. So I'd say

1192
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: Cross of Iron, Platoon Apocalypse, now, um, Paths of Glory

1193
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: is a good movie. That's Stanley Kubrick. I was just

1194
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: talking about that with a friend the other day and

1195
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. I always wanted to. It's something

1196
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: I gotta track that one down. Yeah, if Stanley Kubrick

1197
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,479
Speaker 1: probably the greatest filmmaker. It's a World War One film.

1198
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: It's World War One. If you ever get a chance

1199
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: to watch Barry Lindon, that's another fancase and the one

1200
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: that shows some eighteenth century warfare. So yeah, those are

1201
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: my those are my big ones. But Dost Boat is

1202
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: probably the best war movie I've ever seen. It's awesome.

1203
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: It's about sailors by the quids out there. You know

1204
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: what I wanted to ask you about as well is

1205
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: being a martial arts instructor in the Marines. That has

1206
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 1: to be its own story, so you know, I will

1207
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: tell you being a marshal arts instructor um. Other than

1208
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: running the novel was the hardest thing I've ever done.

1209
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 1: And I had a couple of buddies were like, Richardson,

1210
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: you're forty years old, what are you doing. I'm like

1211
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: I've always wanted to do this, you know, because so

1212
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: we get our we get our belts, you know. But

1213
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to be an instructor. Uh So, at Campbell June,

1214
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: I volunteered for this course. I went to the course

1215
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: and the instructor was probably a twenty nine year old

1216
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: staff sergeant and I out up and he looked at

1217
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 1: me and he said, fox, sir, how old are you guys?

1218
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: And I'm forty, and he goes, just don't have a

1219
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: heart attack on me, because you've got some of these

1220
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: marines by twenty years. You've got all of us by

1221
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: at least ten. And this is not like, this is

1222
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: not gonna be easy. Was ninety degrees out. We didn't

1223
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: exercise one time, as I recount in the book, where

1224
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: I couldn't walk. I had to crawl out of the

1225
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: fighting pit. So it was tough. I'm glad I did it,

1226
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: and being a instructor I was did most of my

1227
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: instruction in Korea. Was very, very satisfied. I loved being

1228
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: a Marine Corps Martial Arts instructor. What's your background in

1229
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: martial arts? Marine Corps martial arts? But no specific, no,

1230
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's not a whole lot of finesse

1231
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: to Marine Corps Martial Arts, and you don't have to

1232
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: know any previous lines training. Back in the day, it

1233
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 1: used to be line training, but they advanced a lot.

1234
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,919
Speaker 1: A guy named Lieutenant Colonel Shusko who's still teaching down

1235
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: a Quantico by the way, he's in charge of it.

1236
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: He was a I don't want to I don't want

1237
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: to misquote any of the things that he was. He

1238
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 1: was a hokkaido guy. He was a jiu jitsu guy,

1239
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: he was a karate guy. Them all together. Marine Corps

1240
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: Martial Arts is UM is ground fighting, uh, and then

1241
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 1: it's stand up fighting, and it's weapons manipulations, you know,

1242
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: like how to retain your weapon, how to take a

1243
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: weapon from somebody. It's knife fighting, and it's also some philosophy.

1244
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: But I will tell you it's violent and it's not um.

1245
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: It's it's it teaches you how to break bones and uh.

1246
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 1: It teaches some lethal maneuvers as well, and to put

1247
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: people down. It's there's not a whole lot of finesse

1248
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: to it. It's rough, it's very effective. I have no

1249
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: qualms about walking down the street somebody jumps on my

1250
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: back I'll take care of it. You two guys up

1251
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: to three, I think I can handle it as long

1252
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: as they're not martial arts guys themselves. When it gets

1253
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: beyond three, I'm probably gonna run as an instructor. I mean,

1254
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: did you have a lot of like twenty year old

1255
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: young marines wanting to challenge you, like I'm gonna uh no,

1256
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: because they were that's the old dog. Marines learned quick,

1257
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: like the old fucker's got some ship that you don't know,

1258
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, and they didn't. Uh. I actually had some

1259
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: marines tell me something. Uh. They were in my class

1260
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: and we were in Korea, and they go, hey, so

1261
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 1: the ship works. I'm like, what are you talking about it? Well,

1262
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 1: this weekend we were out in town and this and

1263
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 1: this happened, and some soldiers jumped us and this happened.

1264
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, we're not gonna talk about that. It

1265
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 1: just stays here and then the ship works. So it

1266
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: does work. Um uh, and it's brutal, it's violent. Uh.

1267
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: If you want to learn how to be a Marine

1268
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: Corps martial artist, you can call me up or join

1269
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. They will teach you. It's it's it's A.

1270
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 1: It's a it's a good piece of gear to have

1271
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: with you when you're out and about, whether it's war

1272
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: or in the streets of Washington, see in New York,

1273
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: l A. Or anywhere else. The other thing I we

1274
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: would be remiss if we didn't ask, is can you

1275
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your art and your

1276
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: background as a painter. So, my mother, uh was a painter,

1277
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: and she was a flower painter, and she painted, you know,

1278
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: she was she was a farm girl and she painted.

1279
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: I have a rooster that she painted in my my

1280
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: bedroom and it's always going to be there to the

1281
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: day I die. So she was a painter, and she

1282
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: taught me color. She taught me how to stretch color, uh,

1283
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: which from your own personal color. She taught me composition,

1284
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 1: and she taught me grit. My mom painted every day,

1285
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: even if it was just a half hour, she'd go

1286
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: in there and paint. My brother was a painter. So

1287
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: it's not something I came to uh in college or

1288
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 1: that I grew up around it. So it's kind of

1289
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: for like those folks who's parents golfed or went out

1290
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: a lot of vacations. It's something you end up doing.

1291
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: So I always kept it around I was doing what

1292
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 1: joined the Marine Corps. I tried to quit it a

1293
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: couple of times and I never could. But the main

1294
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 1: my painting really really kicked off when I was an

1295
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: instructor or, when I was teaching at Fort Sill, and

1296
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: then I went to Washington, d C. To be UH

1297
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: a structor at George Washington University, and I was accepted

1298
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: by a gallery there, and I was painting these paintings

1299
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: about their abstract paintings or near abstract, about their symbols, UH,

1300
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: their monuments of the characters in the Trojan War. So

1301
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: there's somewhat abstract, and he kind of got to feel

1302
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of like reading between the lines of the paintings.

1303
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: My favorite paintings are the shotgun paintings U and I

1304
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 1: took that from the war, just like to cover of

1305
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: my book. I've taken a bunch of plane cards, painted

1306
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: it on UH corrugated tin and then shot it up

1307
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: with the shotgun. And my dad gave me when he died,

1308
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: and they're kind of cool because I've backed him in

1309
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,959
Speaker 1: that type of thanks. And recently, oddly enough, I gave

1310
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 1: my girlfriend Stacy a bouquet of roses for Valentine's Day

1311
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: and I looked at those roses one day and I'm

1312
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 1: gonna paint the roses. So I've been painting large flower

1313
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: paintings recently, kind of after my mother, although it's something

1314
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: my mother's style, that's kind of what I'm doing. So

1315
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: that's that's something I've done all my life. I do

1316
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: show my work. I do have a dealer in that

1317
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: type of thing. These oil paintings, uh, primarily oil paintings.

1318
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: Of course, the ones I did in incorrugated tin, I

1319
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: did Alabanski with a spray can. Of course, Banski probably

1320
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: can't shoot a shotgun in London or he lives. He's

1321
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 1: a mysterious guy. But I used a shotgun on that one.

1322
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: And I also work in acrylic now and then that's awesome.

1323
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: I think it's bank Ski, not Bands. Yeah, banks Yeah, Bankski.

1324
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, only if he had a shotgun he would

1325
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 1: he may be a greater artist. I actually think Bankski

1326
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: is a great artist. But yeah, now he's I mean

1327
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: what he does is so thought provoking. Banks He's interesting

1328
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 1: because I know for a while the high art world

1329
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: kind of ship on him. I think they've come around

1330
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: because he is a fantastic artist. There's other famous ones

1331
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 1: out there that I don't want to think much of.

1332
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:32,439
Speaker 1: Bankski is great. Um, there's a handful like bank Ski

1333
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: who are popular with the public, and eventually the art

1334
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: world has to come around gritting their or gritting the

1335
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: nashal nashing their teeth and say, okay, we acquiesced he

1336
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: actually is worth the ship. And because he's one of them,

1337
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: because every collector wants their piece so right, so they're

1338
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 1: kind of they were beaten into submission by bank Ski.

1339
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: Only if I could, I could team up with bank

1340
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 1: Ski with my shotgun. I think that's kind of what

1341
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: I attempted to do. Should it just invent your own

1342
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 1: genre of shotgun art? I mean you're on your way. Yeah,

1343
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: I'm trying, you know, I'm trying. I's got to get

1344
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 1: it in the right hands. Like I gotta know, I

1345
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 1: need somebody like you to kind of say, yeah, this

1346
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: is what it is. You know, I need somebody to

1347
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: tell the back story. So that's the most the thing

1348
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 1: with contemporary painting. You spend five minutes looking at the

1349
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: paint and then you know, two hours or somebody over

1350
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 1: dinner telling you about the back story. Uh, I want

1351
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: I want to split it kind of half and half.

1352
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: Actually people want to I want people to like want

1353
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: the painting hanging in their house, not even some installations somewhere. Uh.

1354
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: And I want it to be accessible to them, and

1355
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: then that they can tell the bank the back story.

1356
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:33,599
Speaker 1: They don't need, you know, somebody in the inside world

1357
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: to tell them, inside our world to tell them the

1358
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: back story. So is there another novel in you? Uh? Yes,

1359
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 1: there is. So I've actually I lost my computer. So

1360
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 1: and when he finds my computer out there, it's got

1361
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 1: there's a draft on the there's a draft on it's

1362
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 1: a quarter of the novel with the outline that I

1363
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,799
Speaker 1: lost it on backing up anywhere. I lost it somewhere

1364
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: between Los Angeles, California, and Dulls in Washington, d C.

1365
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: That's gonna be heartbreak, man. Yeah. Well, so I restarted

1366
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,799
Speaker 1: it about two weeks ago, and I've written the outline

1367
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 1: and I've got enough another novel in me and probably

1368
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 1: two more after that. I've kind of kind of planned

1369
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: out place. Tier fourth comes back to the war from

1370
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 1: the war, he gets out, uh, and then he starts

1371
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 1: working for DHS. That's the last place. It's autobiographical. And

1372
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: then it goes off to imagination. From there, there's a

1373
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 1: little conspiracy theory in there. There's a little bit of

1374
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, dystopia, I love dystopia type of stuff. Uh,

1375
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a apocalyptic type things in there.

1376
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be an actual sequel to to this book.

1377
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 1: It will. I gotta keep the same I'm gonna keep

1378
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: the same guy, so so you know, that's that's kind

1379
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: of how that's kind of how the dollars stack up.

1380
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: You know, you keep the same guy going and going

1381
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 1: and going. He probably gets shot at a few times.

1382
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: I bet he's gonna be the kind of guy that

1383
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:48,600
Speaker 1: can kick your ass with martial arts, never has to

1384
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: use the gun until it comes right down to it,

1385
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, unless you meet another martial arts guy. But

1386
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: I only use his revolvers because semi autos are prone

1387
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: to jams. Exactly. Yeah, that kind of stuff. I bet

1388
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 1: he's got chickens in his yard and Armington, Virginia, a

1389
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: couple of those types of things. Probably still smokes, probably drinking.

1390
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: He would probably the kind of guy that would show

1391
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 1: up for an interview and drink whiskey while he's He's

1392
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,759
Speaker 1: that kind of guy that's probably got a hot girlfriend

1393
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: who trucks along with New York with him, so that's awesome.

1394
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 1: And a new painting as well for the sequel. Yeah,

1395
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: I'll figure out whatever I'm working out at the time,

1396
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:24,559
Speaker 1: and it probably won't be flowers, won't put flowers, but

1397
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: it will likely be something from the shotgun series, because

1398
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if we have any gun enthusiasts there,

1399
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 1: but there's something that's definitely listeners. You are, okay, So

1400
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: never tell you something to create something, then go out

1401
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: and shoot it up with a shotgun. You'll like it

1402
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 1: even more, especially if it's not that good to start with.

1403
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 1: The shotgun adds this, you know, always talking about, you know,

1404
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: the randomness of a Jackson Pollock painting. Jackson Pollock didn't

1405
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 1: have ship on a twelve gate shotgun, well said, man.

1406
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 1: The last thing I have, unless jack is anything else,

1407
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:54,840
Speaker 1: is you gotta shout out the guys who listened to

1408
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:56,760
Speaker 1: the show, because you were telling me. The reason that

1409
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 1: you reached out your publishists publicist reached out is that

1410
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: a couple of guys that you know said you gotta

1411
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,599
Speaker 1: go on software radio, right, Stephen Vanamarin, KB Henderson who

1412
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: I work with as soon as you know, I was

1413
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 1: talking to about getting the book published. Uh, They're like, hey, man,

1414
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: you gotta go off the Software Radio. You know, they'll

1415
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: talk to you, you know, because you did some stuff

1416
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 1: in the military. We're not sure what, but but you

1417
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 1: do talk about a randomly sometime and we thought you

1418
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:23,640
Speaker 1: had TRET syndrome, but it's actually just you shooting out

1419
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: random ship. So I need to go on Software Radio

1420
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 1: and talk to him about your book. And uh, and

1421
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 1: my publisher hooking me up John Bogdale before I had

1422
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: a chance to contact you all. So those are the

1423
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: dudes that initial initially introduced me to your program. That's awesome, man,

1424
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 1: Well really appreciate you coming on. This has been an

1425
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: awesome interview for the listeners. Your website is d E.

1426
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: Richardson dot com on Twitter at d rich war Story.

1427
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: Anything else that you want to get out there, maybe

1428
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:57,719
Speaker 1: for your art. You can probably get the book on Amazon, Amazon, Google,

1429
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 1: um Books a million. Yeah, you can find just just

1430
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 1: google Dave richardson our Washing d C or Dave Richardson

1431
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 1: war Story and you can get the book, or you

1432
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 1: can see the paintings and you can also show my

1433
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 1: house with the shotgun and I'll take you along with

1434
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: me to make some art. Just don't point it at me. Excellent, man,

1435
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 1: this has been great, So pick up a war story.

1436
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: Really appreciate you having coming in with us. Okay, thanks

1437
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:23,840
Speaker 1: for having me. This has been fantastic. Yeah. Absolutely, we'll

1438
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: do it again when the next book comes out. Okay,

1439
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,719
Speaker 1: I'll try to make that within the next twelve months.

1440
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: Awesome having David in studio, and I mean beyond just

1441
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: his writing, really great artists. Just looking at his stuff,

1442
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean, just the cover in general stands out. His

1443
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 1: girlfriend was showing me some pictures on on her cell

1444
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 1: phone of his art. It's it's really nice. Yeah, I

1445
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: haven't seen much more. So it's cool that you got

1446
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: a chance to check that all out. That she came

1447
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: in studio. Um, yeah, just all around great dude and

1448
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: writing a book that's different than a lot of other books.

1449
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: And and it's great to see. I mean, sometimes you

1450
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: feel like this market gets saturated with all the veteran authors,

1451
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 1: but you realize a lot of them bring something totally

1452
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,679
Speaker 1: new to the table. So absolutely, with that, be sure

1453
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 1: to check out Create Club. It's a club fore men

1454
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 1: by men of gear handpicked by Special Operations veterans. Now,

1455
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 1: I've been a little out of the loop of some

1456
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: of the changes over the site since I'll be leaving

1457
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 1: the podcast next week and they've been busy with that.

1458
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 1: I don't know if you you're familiar with this, Jack,

1459
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: because I was just checking out the site to make

1460
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: sure I'm up on everything. But currently we're just doing

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Speaker 1: Us promo code softwarep Also as a reminder for those

1472
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 1: who are listening, now is the time to sign up

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Speaker 1: for the Spec Ops channel. That's our channel that offers

1474
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Speaker 1: the most exclusive shows, documentaries, and interviews covering the most

1475
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:18,920
Speaker 1: exciting military content today. The spec Ops Channel premier show.

1476
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 1: Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate

1477
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,680
Speaker 1: in the most advanced training in the country, everything from

1478
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, climbing, and

1479
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:34,480
Speaker 1: much more. Again, you can watch this content by subscribing

1480
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,519
Speaker 1: to the spec Ops channel at spec ops channel dot

1481
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 1: com and take advantage of a membership for only four

1482
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,719
Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. That's spec ops channel dot com.

1483
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 1: Sign up today. Last, if you're not already signed up

1484
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 1: at the News Rep dot com, you've got to get

1485
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:51,639
Speaker 1: on board expert reporting and actionable intelligence from your favorite

1486
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: writers you've heard on here and Jack, it seems like

1487
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: we have a few different guys writing right now, Like,

1488
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 1: isn't Stavros doing some stuff with us? What's the full

1489
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 1: current line up? You would say, staff Ros, Greg Walker

1490
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 1: is going to be writing for us regularly, UM and

1491
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 1: myself and uh Nick Kaufman perfect alright, So those are

1492
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:14,759
Speaker 1: the guys that you're gonna be seeing, uh and also

1493
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,639
Speaker 1: the guest writers who pop in. Unlimited access to News

1494
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: Rep on any device, unlimited access to the app, joined

1495
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 1: the war Room community, invitations to our exclusive events, and

1496
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: it's all add free from members. We have a trial

1497
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,759
Speaker 1: offer up right now where you can get four weeks

1498
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:34,480
Speaker 1: for only sign up now at the news rep dot com.

1499
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 1: That's the news rep dot com. By the way, for

1500
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,320
Speaker 1: those not in the know, we have our own SOFTWAREP

1501
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 1: Radio app that you can download for free on iPhone

1502
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 1: or Android and our homepages SOFTWAREP radio dot com where

1503
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,679
Speaker 1: you can see the full archive of shows. As I said,

1504
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 1: last show, since we had Vicky Behannah on something like

1505
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,719
Speaker 1: that old episode from Michael Behannah that's up episode eighty

1506
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,879
Speaker 1: eight was great talking to her, by the way, as always,

1507
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 1: keep up with us at SOFTWAUP Radio as well with

1508
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 1: that man. How is Europe? I I didn't get a

1509
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: chance to ask you that it was good. I was

1510
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 1: in London for four days meeting with my wife, uh,

1511
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 1: and she was doing the UK premiere of her documentary,

1512
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: UM documentary I Have the Revolution. Yeah, and uh it

1513
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 1: went well. Is that the Italian Cultural Center which is

1514
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: in the London's version of Embassy Row. Actually I was

1515
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 1: able to get a picture where the s A S

1516
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: had hit the Iranian embassy back in nineteen what eight

1517
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,519
Speaker 1: Operation Nimrod. Those like iconic photos you know of the

1518
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: s A S for pelling down and uh, you know,

1519
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: we interviewed Rusty Ferman who was on that operation, and

1520
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:41,600
Speaker 1: so I was able to get a picture of it.

1521
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,680
Speaker 1: You know, just classic moments of counter terrorism history. I'm

1522
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm a military nerd, so I have to go in

1523
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 1: this ace pilgrimage. But um, anyway, there are two screenings

1524
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 1: of Benny's documentary. UM packed the place. Uh, probably two

1525
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty people together. You know, there's a lot

1526
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:00,920
Speaker 1: of people. There's a lot of people showed up. When

1527
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 1: is this thing going to get a wide release? I mean,

1528
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,640
Speaker 1: the enthusiasm was all there. The New York release was

1529
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: completely sold out. When somebody buys distribution rights. But it's

1530
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 1: just so funny, as we both said when the film

1531
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 1: had the New York premiere, It's like, there's this big

1532
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: outcry for more women in film, more women directors, women producers,

1533
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 1: and then you have a film that is a a

1534
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 1: film spotlighting women in combat, completely produced, directed, edited by women.

1535
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: Where is the financial backing for this? That's uh, you know,

1536
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: I think Benny is a little mystified by that. Also,

1537
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 1: She's like, I don't understand why, you know, this isn't

1538
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:41,959
Speaker 1: how come it's not getting accepted into more film festivals,

1539
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 1: like is it a problem that technically the film isn't

1540
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 1: well made enough? Like, no, that's that's not it is.

1541
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 1: It's something to do with the content. And UM, I think,

1542
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I think it's a couple of things.

1543
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: I think one, it's it's a cross cultural movie. UM,

1544
01:17:56,080 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 1: because it features Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. That's a very

1545
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,520
Speaker 1: hard sell to American audiences unless there's an American protagonist

1546
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: somewhere in there. Uh. And I think the other side

1547
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 1: of it is that um, American or Western sensibilities when

1548
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 1: it comes to feminism is very much UM. I don't.

1549
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:16,840
Speaker 1: I don't in my opinion, just being real bad. I

1550
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 1: think it's very superficial. I think American feminism is kind

1551
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: of weak. Uh. Feminism in the Middle East, these women

1552
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: you've seen the documentary is pretty strong all the way

1553
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 1: up to the point of women picking up collashon a

1554
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 1: Clauds and shooting motherfucker's you know, speaking about the the

1555
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 1: ypj UH Kurdish militia. Um, the female militia in UH

1556
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,680
Speaker 1: in Syria that she spent time with. So it's a

1557
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 1: it's a different These are women in camouflage. Um, they're

1558
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 1: women who are challenging UM orthodoxy and challenging UM their

1559
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:53,640
Speaker 1: governments in these countries. Um. You can see Sally who

1560
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: is a secular politician in Afghanistan fighting for women's rights,

1561
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 1: and like, one of the scenes in the documentary is

1562
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:02,639
Speaker 1: Sally on a news show with this like taliban dude,

1563
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 1: and she's like giving him knife hands, you know, like

1564
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: yelling adam. So I think, you know, like, and she

1565
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 1: receives like death threats all the time, all the time,

1566
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,200
Speaker 1: she has to travel around with armed guards. So I

1567
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 1: mean American feminism in a lot of ways, it's like,

1568
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 1: oh look here, you know, we're chanting. It's about your

1569
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 1: individual identity, where as this film and the women in

1570
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 1: the film are like, no, we are challenging the entire

1571
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:31,360
Speaker 1: paradigm of how how women are perceived UM in exist

1572
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 1: in these societies. Uh. And I think so, I think

1573
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:36,679
Speaker 1: that in the West we have there's a certain way

1574
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 1: we're comfortable with you confront confronting authority, and this film

1575
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: is much more confrontational than what Western audiences are used to.

1576
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:48,800
Speaker 1: So I think that may be part of it. Yeah,

1577
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 1: I loved it. I thought it was great. I think

1578
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 1: it should have a wide release. I mean I would think,

1579
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:55,800
Speaker 1: at the very least get this thing on Netflix or yeah,

1580
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 1: I mean I that would be amazing. Um, at least

1581
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 1: get it up like Amazon. You know, we're so people

1582
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,519
Speaker 1: can go and purchase it on there. But right now

1583
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 1: it's a question of securing distribution rights. Yeah. I got

1584
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:09,759
Speaker 1: a lot of questions when I posted up the picture

1585
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 1: with Benny praising the film. A lot of our listeners

1586
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:14,600
Speaker 1: how can we see it? See it? Yeah, that's what

1587
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 1: I hear all the time, and Ben Benny has to

1588
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 1: be like, you can't. Yeah, un like you could come

1589
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: to the Premier and you know, yeah England or you know.

1590
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 1: And you also got to meet uh Vassilish Bill. Yes,

1591
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,719
Speaker 1: after years of working with Bill Um working remotely because

1592
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 1: he's Greek, Um he uh has immigrated to the UK

1593
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 1: and he has a decent government job there and so

1594
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:40,639
Speaker 1: we both found ourselves in the UK at the same

1595
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 1: time and we were able to meet up. So he

1596
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 1: came came down to London from where he lives and Uh,

1597
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, we spent the day together. We went out,

1598
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:51,599
Speaker 1: we had we had lunch, went out, had some beers

1599
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 1: and then uh went to Benny's mom's place and uh

1600
01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 1: and had dinner. So it was great meeting him and

1601
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 1: his wife is amazing as cool of the guys you

1602
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 1: would have expected. Yeah, man, yeah, really very smart doc too.

1603
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,439
Speaker 1: I'm really happy for him that he found uh, you know,

1604
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:10,360
Speaker 1: a steady good job because you know, being Greek, I mean,

1605
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:12,720
Speaker 1: they have a problem with employment there, and he's a

1606
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,720
Speaker 1: great guy, but his like many many other Greeks, has

1607
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:18,559
Speaker 1: struggled to find work over the years. Yeah, he's one

1608
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 1: of the few guys from the site I've never met, uh,

1609
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:23,639
Speaker 1: you know, for obvious reasons. He don't have to meet

1610
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 1: George Hand I've never I don't know if you've ever

1611
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 1: met George. I've never met him in person. Yeah, he's

1612
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: one of the only guys I've never met in person.

1613
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:31,639
Speaker 1: And he's out in uh well, never mind, but he's out.

1614
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 1: He's out in the Midwest through you know, in the

1615
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 1: South somewhere. I feel like George is one of my

1616
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 1: biggest fans, Like he constantly talks about the work I'm

1617
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:44,680
Speaker 1: doing it and it's crazy. The work he's doing is

1618
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: incredible with the you know, combating human trafficking. I'm just

1619
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,120
Speaker 1: a guy who produces radio and stuff like that. But

1620
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,759
Speaker 1: he's done a lot of like really mind blowing stuff.

1621
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,679
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, George has done some amazing stuff. Um

1622
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 1: and bill uh. I always joke that he looks like

1623
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 1: the Taliban because he has his big like black Beard.

1624
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 1: And when ever he post pictures of him and his

1625
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,959
Speaker 1: wife as his poor girl has been kidnapped by the Taliban.

1626
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: The picture that he had up as a Facebook profile,

1627
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:18,760
Speaker 1: it almost looked like I'm not gonna it looked like

1628
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:23,639
Speaker 1: a special ops porno movie. As as the the picture

1629
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 1: of him with his gun, it's just very uh, it's

1630
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 1: very stereotypical of that. I posted a picture of it

1631
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:32,800
Speaker 1: when he was talking about something. Yeah, I think that's

1632
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: his current profile picture. It was for a while. I'd

1633
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 1: have to, you know, find your search through there. Yeah,

1634
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:41,680
Speaker 1: but look for it. Yeah. He I mean, from what

1635
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:44,439
Speaker 1: I know and from his appearances on the podcast, he's

1636
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 1: just all around great dude. Yeah, I know he is.

1637
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:49,880
Speaker 1: We will have to try to have him on again sometime, alright.

1638
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 1: With that, I mean, I guess all that we have

1639
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:53,640
Speaker 1: to plug is for those who still haven't picked it up,

1640
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 1: the book is out. Murphy's Law if you have not

1641
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:58,920
Speaker 1: bought Murphy's law. At this point, you're letting the communists

1642
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 1: and terrorists win. All right, it's as simple as that, folks.

1643
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:05,880
Speaker 1: We are hanging by a thread right now. No, I'm

1644
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:09,000
Speaker 1: just kidding, all right. This isn't uh, this isn't like

1645
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 1: Alex Jones or yeah, Alex Jones or even mainstream news.

1646
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:15,360
Speaker 1: It's just trying to like terrify people all the time. Um.

1647
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 1: But the book is out. It's been out for about

1648
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 1: three weeks now, and UM, I've been super happy to

1649
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:23,720
Speaker 1: hear about UM hear all the responses and the reviews,

1650
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 1: and you know, it's really connected with people. And um,

1651
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: you know, even people who have listened to this podcast

1652
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:32,879
Speaker 1: for years or like, man, I never knew all these stories.

1653
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were involved in all this crazy stuff. So, UM,

1654
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 1: it's out there. The audiobook is out there, which I narrate.

1655
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 1: So if you haven't picked it up, UM, I love it.

1656
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:44,559
Speaker 1: If you grabbed a copy, and if you ever read it,

1657
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. If you can drop a review

1658
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: on Amazon, you know, good, bad and different. You know,

1659
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not gonna tell anyone how to review

1660
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 1: the book, but UM, reviews help, you know, and everything.

1661
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 1: I've seen his five star Hey man, I mean, just

1662
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 1: just tell right it, tell it how it is, you know.

1663
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 1: And uh and and it only takes a couple of minutes.

1664
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,920
Speaker 1: You throw up a review on Amazon. Yeah, it helps

1665
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:09,599
Speaker 1: get the visibility up and a lot of you will

1666
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:11,960
Speaker 1: be excited to know. Next episode, we have a guy

1667
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:14,719
Speaker 1: on who's been getting around in terms of podcasts and promotion.

1668
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,360
Speaker 1: I've seen him everywhere. Uh and I'm probably gonna butcher

1669
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,120
Speaker 1: his name because i haven't heard him saying but Remy

1670
01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:23,520
Speaker 1: at Aliki at a lackey. Uh, former navy seal from Nigeria,

1671
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:28,160
Speaker 1: really interesting story, became an extra and Transformers movie. I'm

1672
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to him. I think he's gonna

1673
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:32,080
Speaker 1: have a really unique story to tell. Yeah. I shouldn't

1674
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:33,719
Speaker 1: even say extra. I think he had a small role

1675
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 1: in Transformers. Um cool role. But yeah, I've seen that

1676
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: he's doing a lot of podcasts and people speaking really

1677
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 1: highly of him, so much to uh talk to him,

1678
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:44,680
Speaker 1: and that will be my last weeks shows. But for

1679
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 1: those wondering, I mean, I'm it's not out of the

1680
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:48,360
Speaker 1: question that Jack and I will work on some outside

1681
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:50,920
Speaker 1: stuff together or me do some podcast stuff again in

1682
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:52,920
Speaker 1: the future. I'm just kind of walking away from this

1683
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 1: and uh focusing on me in our male prostitution ring

1684
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 1: that I'm not doing but as I've mentioned, focusing more

1685
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 1: on Voice so over and some other outside ventures. But

1686
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that I'm you know, not gonna continue

1687
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 1: to do stuff in this field. If the opportunity comes up,

1688
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely open to it. So uh, awesome man. Thanks

1689
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:14,720
Speaker 1: again to David for coming in. Thanks Dennis who will

1690
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 1: be producing this whole show, and uh yeah, tune in

1691
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:23,639
Speaker 1: next episode, which will be up on Wednesday. Awesome you've

1692
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 1: been listening to self red Radio. New episodes up every

1693
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter

1694
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:33,839
Speaker 1: at self red Radio.