1 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. My good friend, doctor 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Terry Maple, who was one of the great zoo directors 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: of all time and a wonderful personal friend, passed away 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: on December third, twenty twenty three. He was seventy seven. 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: All the time I knew Terry, going back to the 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: mid nineteen eighties, he was brilliant, enthusiastic, loved animals, loved people, 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: had a remarkable career, wrote over a dozen scholarly books, 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: and is somebody I truly felt was a friend. I 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: miss him and I wanted to share with you the 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: podcast to Terry, and I did, and you'll have a 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: sense of what a wonderful person he was. I've been 12 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: in love with animals all in my life, and I 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: enjoyed going to zoos all over the world. In fact, 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: one of my original childhood goals was to be a 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: zoo director. I've been fortunate enough to visit some of 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: the most incredible zoos, as well as go on safari 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: in Africa. I confess that before I decided on a 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: public service, I was going to be either a zoo 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: director or a vertebrate paleontologist, but I ended up just 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: trying to work on the country's problems. But my guest 21 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: today considered a career in public service. We almost swapped, 22 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: and then he became a zoo director. But he's much 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: more than that. We were fortunate enough to meet years 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: ago when doctor Terry Maple became president and CEO of 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: Zoo Atlanta in nineteen eighty four under Mayor Andrew Young. 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: He then went on to lead the Palm Beach Zoo. 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: At the time doctor Maple took over Zoo Atlanta in 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, the zoo had become quote a national 29 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: disgrace following this mysterious death of an elephant uncovered in 30 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: a shallow grave in North Carolina. The elephant became the 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: poster packet erm for zoom mismanagement, and it was then 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: that Mary Young turned to doctor Maple. What doctor Maple 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: was able to do with Zoo Atlanta was nothing short 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: of remarkable. He's the author of fourteen books, including one 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: I co authored with him, entitled A Contract with the Earth. 36 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: He has a new book he's working on now, coming 37 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: out this September, which describes the incredible story of Willie 38 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: b It's entitled Atlanta's Iconic Ape The Life of Willy B. 39 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Terry Maple. Terry, 40 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I wanted to do this 41 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: episode because I want to emphasize how important I think 42 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: zoos are for society and frankly make the case of 43 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: why zoos matter. You have been one of the leading 44 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: advocates of the importance of zoos, both as a place 45 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: that families go to, as a place that practices conservation, 46 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: and as a center of education. Could you talk to 47 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: us for a minute or two about the degree to 48 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: which zoos really really matter. Well. 49 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: Their educational function is tremendous. 50 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 3: If the school systems take advantage of it, you have 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 3: to work together with them to develop a curricula at work. 52 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: By the visit to the zoo, it's just full of 53 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: learning ops. 54 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: At the same time, it's a conservation organization now more 55 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: than ever before. Zoos are not only breeding in dangerous 56 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 3: species and growing their populations and no longer taking animals 57 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: out of the wild, but they are trying to restore habitat, 58 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 3: trying to protect populations in the wild, and they're becoming 59 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: partners with conservation organizations, spending lots and lots of money 60 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: to help, and they are also centers of science. We 61 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: now have this thing called one medicine, and one medicine 62 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: is the combination of animal and human medicine because, as 63 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 3: we have learned sadly, these viruses don't stay on one host. 64 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: They frequently jump, especially when you destroy the population that 65 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 3: harbored the virus. It then looks for a place to jump, 66 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 3: and that place is often humanity. This is how we 67 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 3: believe COVID that where it is onto virus the same. 68 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: There are many viruses that like ebola, which were in 69 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 3: Africa for years and years attacking animals and now attacking people. 70 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 3: So we're all connected and it's important that zoos and 71 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: universities talk to each other and work together continue to 72 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: discover what it is about the world we. 73 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: Need to know. 74 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 3: But there's one other use of zoos people don't really 75 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 3: understand yet, and that is that the zoos are that 76 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: naturalistic wildlife experience that we crave, particularly those of us 77 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: who live in an urban environment. 78 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: If you're an. 79 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 3: Urban kid, you long to get out into nature, and 80 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 3: zoos are nature. We feel better when we can actually 81 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 3: revitalize and restore our sense of well being when we 82 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: go to a place like that. So zoos need de 83 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: cay to this feeling, and that's how architects began to 84 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: develop this so called soft architecture and landscape immersion building facilities. 85 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: It made you feel more and more like you'vere in nature. 86 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: You don't feel good when you go in and feel 87 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: like you're in prison. That's what zoos used to be. 88 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: Like. 89 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: Today's zoos are inspiring places because they mimic nature. 90 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: And they also attract a surprisingly large number of. 91 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: People they do. 92 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: It's going to be interesting now that we've had this 93 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: viral experience because zoos are having to reinvent themselves. Every 94 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: public place is having to revent itself. But zoos have 95 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 3: the unique advantage they are outdoor experiences, so they're safer 96 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 3: just by that alone. 97 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 2: But we're going to have to make do with social distancing, 98 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: and they're the standards we didn't have before. We may 99 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: not be able to. 100 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: Put people in a giant auditorium shoulder to shoulder like 101 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: we used to do. Disney's probably going to lead the 102 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: way on this, but we'll work with all the zoos 103 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: in the America and in the world to reinvent standards 104 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: that will fit the problems of the day. 105 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: But the number one advantage we have is. 106 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 3: We are in natural outdoor experiences and people feel better 107 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: just going to the zoo. And the more we understand 108 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: how people behave and how they use these spaces, the 109 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 3: better those spaces are going to be. 110 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: So if you don't mind, I would like to go 111 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: back to your childhood growing up in southern California. Tell 112 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: me what helped shape you back then. 113 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 3: Well, I was born in the La East La, which 114 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: is a very dangerous place. They didn't live there a long. 115 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: My parents moved me to San Diego, which was wonderful. 116 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: We were living on the outskirts of San Diego, a 117 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: little town called Chila Vista, seven miles from the Mexican 118 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: border by the way, and my mother is half Hispanic, 119 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: so I feel like it's. 120 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: My territory down there. The problem is I never learned Spanish. 121 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: I just learned how to eat Mexican food that my 122 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 3: mother was very good at. But it was a wonderful 123 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: place to grow up, and it was kind of a 124 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: wild place. There was hills and creatures, and it was 125 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 3: a place up in the hills called Fossil Canyon, which 126 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: all the little kids knew about, and we used to 127 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 3: go up there all the time and dig fossils. 128 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: And what we didn't. 129 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: Know is that it turned out to be one of 130 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 3: the biggest fossil mines in the history of southern California. 131 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 3: And this happened years later. I sent me a clipping 132 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: about Fossil Canyon. They were developing it from homes and 133 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 3: when they found the fossils they had to go in there. 134 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: And protect them. 135 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 3: Well, I always thought the little kid should have gotten 136 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 3: got to discovering that place, but didn't happen away. But 137 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 3: we neverthe last We were quite proud to know it. 138 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 3: So that was a big influence on my life because 139 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: I felt like I was an explorer. I always wanted 140 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: to be an explorer. So going to the zoo, which 141 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: is our principal activity, is a family My father was 142 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 3: not wealthy, so we couldn't travel. Going to La was 143 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: about as far as we ever got. But I didn't 144 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: like LA, but going to the zoo was a whole 145 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 3: lot better. We went to the zoo all the time 146 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 3: when he was a marvelous place, very inspirational for a 147 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: little boy, a notable place to develop his own curiosity. 148 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: The zoo even today is just I think amazing. When 149 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: you were there, it was still basically only the downtown 150 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: zoo and they didn't the animal park until later on 151 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: in your life. 152 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: Is that right? That's right. 153 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: What happened is a place called Lion Country Safari arrived 154 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles and there were seven of these Safari 155 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 3: parks built, one of them in Georgia in Atlanta, about 156 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 3: the one in la was wildly popular, and it was 157 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: based on the idea that you get in your car 158 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: and you drive around and you see the animals as 159 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: if he were on a real safari. And they had 160 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: as many as a one hundred lions at that park example, 161 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 3: which was quite remarkable. And when San Diego started losing attendance, 162 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: they started thinking, maybe we need one of these things. 163 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: But they didn't want to do it the same way. 164 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: They built a Safari experience that was a walking experience. 165 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 3: They did build a little train that went around the outside, 166 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 3: but primarily it was walking around in a more naturalistic place. Nevertheless, 167 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 3: that facility until lost money for ten years before it 168 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 3: began to turn a profit. It was in the northernmost 169 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: part of San Diego, as Candido long ways to get to, 170 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 3: but As San Diego grew, and as the La grew south, 171 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 3: more and more homes were being built, more and more 172 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: people were moving there, and pretty soon as Candida wasn't 173 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: as far Abua as it used to be, so the 174 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 3: park began to succeed. But from the beginning it was 175 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 3: an artistic success. It was an entertainment success. It was 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 3: a wonderful experience, and a lot of zoos around the 177 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 3: country began to try to emulate it. But I think 178 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: the Wild Animal Park now called the Safari Park, is 179 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 3: really one of the extraordinary zoo experiences you'll ever have. 180 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: I had a program called Ror and Snore where you 181 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: could go and stay out and sleep in a tent. 182 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: I remember going years ago, and I thought it was 183 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: such a perfectly California experience. You had white table claws, 184 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: you had China, you had California wines. I mean, you 185 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: had somebody from the zoo give you a chat in 186 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: the evening, You went to bed early, and then you 187 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: were awakened by the lions and other animals starting around 188 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: three in the morning. And it was brilliant showmanship on 189 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: the part of the San Diego Zoo and CLIs and 190 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: I were very fortunate to have a twenty three day 191 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: trip in Africa with the curator of birds who was 192 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: extraordinarily knowledgeable, and it was great fun. You didn't stay 193 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: at the zoo, you didn't become a zookeeper. You took 194 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: that love of animals and you went off to college. 195 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: Well, it's a funny thing. I enjoyed the zoo. I 196 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: enjoyed animals, but I never thought you could make a 197 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: living doing that. And nobody ever told me you could 198 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: actually get faith. So I was at that time becoming 199 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 3: politically aware. San Diego is a conservative town. I wanted 200 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: to be involved in some kind of public service, but 201 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: I didn't want traditional politics. 202 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: I was student by the president in high school, and. 203 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 3: I already had enough misery from that to ever imagine 204 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: running for office. But I thought, you know, I'd like 205 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 3: to be a statesman. I'd like to be in the 206 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: foreign service. I get to travel and be the explorer 207 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: I wanted to be, and I get to serve my country, 208 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 3: and this would be a good thing to do. So 209 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: I went to college thinking that was going to be 210 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: in my career. I wanted to be an ambassador, but 211 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 3: along the way, the Vietnam War happened, and this shook 212 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 3: me up. I just couldn't understand so many of my 213 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: peers were dying, and almost for no very good reason. Certainly, 214 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: we students questioned it. We had teachings, and we talked 215 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 3: about it incessantly. I began to think, you know, there's 216 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 3: got to be some answers somewhere in the psychademia that 217 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: I'm living in right now. So I started looking at 218 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: sociology and political science, and I finally discovered psychology. And then, 219 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: having studied psychology, I discovered ethology, which is a sort 220 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: of a sub branch of psychology and biology. And I 221 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: read a book by Comrade Lorenz called on Aggression. That 222 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 3: book turned me around. It made me believe that I 223 00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 3: could understand why men fight if I understood why animals fucked. 224 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 3: And that took me down the road of beginning to 225 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: see myself as an academic involved in trying to understand 226 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 3: man's inhumanity to man. So you think I might have 227 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: stopped there. I did my first book, which was a 228 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: reader on human aggression, when I was still in graduate school. 229 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: But I started getting so interested in the animals. I 230 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: realized that they were getting in humane treatment too. And 231 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: I began to get sidetracked more and more into the 232 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: animals themselves, and ultimately I became an ambassador for wildlife. 233 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 3: So it turned out you always ended up doing what 234 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: you're supposed to do. I was supposed to represent somebody, 235 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: you end. 236 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: Up representing wildlife. But you got into that in part 237 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: at the University of California, Davis, which is one of 238 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: the great agricultural schools in the world, and at that 239 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: point in your life, you're looking at primate behavior and 240 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: lessons a week and learn as humans from watching how 241 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: primates interact. 242 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: Lorenz did not study primates. 243 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: Once I got into the issue of studying animals, I 244 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 3: just had to find the animals that would make sense 245 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 3: for me. Started with monkeys, baboons. I visited Africa. I 246 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: visited a former student, and that influenced me. Going to 247 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: Africa really opened my eyes and I began to see 248 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 3: that when I had the opportunity to work at Emory University, 249 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 3: I would be able to study the largest collection of 250 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: great apes in the world, yer Key's Primate Center. I 251 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 3: had a guerrillas, orangs and chimps in great numbers, and 252 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: they were respected well known for what they were doing. 253 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: But when I got there and I saw the facilities, 254 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 3: they were terrible. They were not enlightened facilities like we 255 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 3: had the San Diego Zoo. They were very ugly cages, 256 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 3: and I didn't think the animals could possibly be thriving 257 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: under those conditions. So I almost immediately began to think 258 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 3: my calling was probably going to be to improve, if 259 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 3: not eliminate, these terrible examples of what my mentor, Robert Summer, 260 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: and he was studying prisons, mental hospitals, and zoos, and 261 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 3: he wrote a book called Tight Spaces that was very 262 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: influential in my thinking when I realized that these things 263 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 3: could change, But I also realized that it wasn't going 264 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: to happen just because of an idea. That's when I 265 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 3: began to draw upon my storehouse of people's skills, and 266 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 3: I had that, probably more than any other skill, was 267 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 3: my ability to work for people, to lead people, and 268 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 3: to get along with people. It's interesting that that's what 269 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: the great Bell, eventually, the first woman zoo director at 270 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 3: San Diego, said about her role there. When she was 271 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 3: made director, she had been executive sector there for many years, 272 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 3: and the founder of the zoo said to her, well, 273 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 3: Bell I'm retiring, it's time for you to take over. 274 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: You might as well be the director. You're running everything anyway, 275 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 3: And so she took over. But she later commented that 276 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 3: she had no zoological skills, no special ability to run 277 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: a zoo, but what she had was pep skills. Could 278 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: get along people, to get people involved. They could move 279 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 3: everybody in the right direction. And she built a powerhouse too, 280 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 3: and deserves a lot of credit for it. 281 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: This ability to recruit good people, get them focused on 282 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: a particular direction, and have them operate together. There's a 283 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: really rare skill among humans. 284 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: The funny thing I was always good at that. When 285 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 3: I was in the sixth grade, my teacher took me 286 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 3: aside at school camp and he said to me, this 287 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 3: is a very humbling conversation. He said, Derek, you're not 288 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 3: the biggest boy. You're not an athlete of any consequence. 289 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 3: You're not mean or strong, you're not a warrior. You're 290 00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: a leader. He said, somehow you leave these kids follow you, 291 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: and you've got a skill that you've got to take 292 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 3: advantage of your life. And he wanted me to know 293 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 3: that there was something special. And I thought about this 294 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: over the years because he was just a natural thing. Also, 295 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 3: when I began to play sports, I had an underdog personality. 296 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 3: I just loved getting in there with a bunch of 297 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 3: guys that were misfits. And I always picked teams because 298 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 3: of cohesion and never picked them because of, you know, 299 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 3: the skills of the guys. So I take my guys 300 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: and we would beat good teams all the time. They 301 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 3: were just a matter of working together and like you said, 302 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 3: being a team, and also just being fearless, never believing 303 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: that you can't do it. 304 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 2: And my father, who was a laborer. 305 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 3: Always told my brother and I he did not have 306 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: a high school education, but he said, you kids, you 307 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: can be whatever you want to be, but you better 308 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: be good at or I'm not going to be happy. 309 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 3: My older brother spent fifty years at the University of California, 310 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 3: San Diego in the Department of Physics. He's a member 311 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 3: of the National Academy of Sciences. The most brilliant, wonderful 312 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: role model a boy could ever have. And you know, 313 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 3: it just happened that all this stuff came together. But 314 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 3: I always remember that it started in kind of simple 315 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: ways and evolved and morphed and became what it was, 316 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 3: and It was the remarkable experience. I'm still writing and 317 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: mentoring and working, but it was mighty fun when I 318 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 3: was really in the actor. 319 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: You go from UC Davis, you end up first at 320 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: Emory and then at Georgia Tech. And my sense was 321 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: that you were doing very well at Tech and had 322 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: been recognized as an academic, and suddenly you get a 323 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: call from the city of Atlanta to apply a totally 324 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: different set of skills, and you do it as though 325 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: you were born to it. You stepped in and from 326 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: day one you began to turn the zoo around, turn 327 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: it into a great research center, a terrific urban zoo, 328 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: and totally reclaimed its legitimacy in terms of accreditation. I mean, 329 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: were all those just latent skills that were waiting to 330 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: be called upon? 331 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 3: Well, they were, but also there was some planning involved. 332 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: When I first got into academia, I wasn't sure whether 333 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 3: this is the place I wanted to spend my career. 334 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 2: After three years. 335 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: At Emory, I remember Dean Poems, You may remember him. 336 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: He became president of Georgia State. He told us all 337 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 3: when we came in our first year, we were all hand. 338 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: Picked top people in the country and he. 339 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: Said, ladies and gentlemen, I know you're glad to be here, 340 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 3: but I want to tell you your chances of getting tenure 341 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: here A stim and Nune. They adopted the Harvard model. 342 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 3: It was bring in great people for three or four years, 343 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 3: and then they get rid of them and bring in 344 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: more great people. That way, they didn't have to pay 345 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 3: him a lot of money. So getting tenure was indeed 346 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 3: very difficult. So I started thinking, well, yeah, I better 347 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 3: have something in my back pocket. 348 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: Now. 349 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: I had already discovered zeus and was beginning to become 350 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 3: known as the guy who has answers about apes. 351 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 2: So I made a deal to. 352 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: Go on a sabbatical leave. 353 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: This is after I left amery with the Tech. 354 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: I was only at Tech two years and I was 355 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 3: going on a sabbat because Ron Forman, the young director 356 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 3: down there, wonderful guy, a really great mentor. He needed 357 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 3: a primatologist and he wanted me to come down and said, look, 358 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: you come back. Beat my deputy director Introm. You don't 359 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 3: have to stay. You, I belave your academic career. Just 360 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: come down and do this. I need your help. And 361 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 3: he said you'll learn something too. So I thought, you know, 362 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: I will learn a great deal of house he run 363 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: if I go work with this, And indeed it was 364 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 3: the smartest thing I ever did. I came back with 365 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 3: knowledge about running a zoo that I didn't have before. 366 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 3: So when Andrew Young asked me to come into the 367 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 3: room with all the other experts, I knew more about 368 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 3: it than anybody else, even though when I took the job, 369 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 3: I was the least experienced to director in the entire world. 370 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: When we were Young talked to you, did you have 371 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: a vision of what you wanted to care this decrepit 372 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: almost unaccredited institution, where you wanted it to go, and 373 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: what you dreamed it could become. 374 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: And the day I moved to Atlanta and nineteen seventy 375 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: five and I went to see the zoo, I knew 376 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 3: immediately that this who as advantages that just might make 377 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 3: it great someday if they could get all of their 378 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 3: ducks in a row. 379 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: And that advantage was a very simple thing. 380 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: It was the major universities surrounding Atlanta, Georgia, Georgia State, Emory, 381 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 3: and then three veterinary schools within an hour, Auburn, Tskeigee, 382 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 3: and University of Georgia, And I didn't know too many 383 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 3: city zoos that had that advantage. 384 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: But you had to turn it from being a not 385 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: very important. 386 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 3: Attraction to being a fine zoological facility with science and 387 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 3: conservation education that is routed. 388 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: And it wasn't that. 389 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 3: Then they had to figure out, this is where we 390 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 3: wanted to go. But I knew if we could turn it, 391 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: we were a San Diego zoo in the making, not 392 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 3: as big, but in many ways as. 393 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: Good and lo and behold. I was given the opportunity to. 394 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 3: Take it in that direction because when they gave me 395 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: the zoo to run, it was a tabular rasa and 396 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: they would have done anything to support me if I 397 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 3: just stopped the bleeding. That's what I was really hired 398 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 3: to do. But I did a lot better than that. 399 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 3: I surprised them all. 400 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: You look at a place like Memphis or Saint Louis, 401 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: or lots of cities approximately in the Atlanta league, Why 402 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: did you think Atlanta had some unique advantages? 403 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: Well, several things. 404 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 3: First of all, they were all the primates because it 405 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 3: had the Primate Center and had all the institutions that 406 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: had private just senate every university. I just mentioned imatologist 407 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 3: that some note Duane Mumbau over at Georgia State, a 408 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: great figure in the business, and by the way, a 409 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 3: man who worked at the San Diego Zoo at one time. 410 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 3: There were many others and they were all there the guide, 411 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 3: this young primatologist, and that was a sense of inspiration. 412 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 3: But it's also the fact that Atlanta was beginning to 413 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 3: be the hot city in the South. It was entrepreneurial 414 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: to a fault, and there were people like Ted Derner 415 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 3: that thought they could do anything. So when you're surrounded 416 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: by people like that, and of course, you know, I 417 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 3: met this guy named Nuke Gingrich and first thing he 418 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 3: told me is I'm going to be. 419 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 2: Speaking out someday. And I thought, you know, I didn't 420 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: say it to you at the time, but I thought, 421 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 2: it is that ever going to happen? Yeah? 422 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well it took me longer than it took you. 423 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: But you thought big, and people who think big. 424 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 3: I knew that if I thought big enough and I 425 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 3: was able to work for it and do the right things, we. 426 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: Get it, and that we did so in one of 427 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: your first big breakthroughs was convincing the Ford Motor Company 428 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: to provide a remarkable facility. How did you pull that off. 429 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting because Ford had had a plant in 430 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 3: Atlanta for seventy five years, but their marketers told them 431 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: nobody knew it. Nobody really knew that Ford had contributed 432 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: anything in the city. 433 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: So their marketers were. 434 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 3: Trying to uplift the image of Ford Motor Company. So 435 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 3: they were shopping their involvement to try to fix something 436 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: or advance something. 437 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: That would be noticed. 438 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 3: So they came around and they looked the zoo, asked 439 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 3: me to tell them what I was doing there that 440 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 3: might be remarkable. 441 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 2: Now, I said to him, you know, I've got an 442 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: idea for you. We're going to build the best guerrilla 443 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: exhibit in the entire world, and we're starting with one gorilla. 444 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 3: And I said, I know we can do this if 445 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 3: we had the support for community, but we're going to 446 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 3: need funding, and if we had a partner like Forward, 447 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 3: he would make it so much easier. So having sketched 448 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 3: out division to them, they went back to the drawing board, 449 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 3: thought about it and designed, you know, let's take that 450 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: zoo on, let's make that our project. They came back. 451 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: But I always remember when Jim Donaldson K who was 452 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: one of their marketing guys, gave me the first check 453 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 3: for fifty thousand. He whispered in my ear as I 454 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: was about to walk out and give a speech. He said, 455 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 3: not Derry. He had a sort of a Scottish brogue. 456 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 3: Now Darry better not be number two. And they always 457 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: told me this is another thing I learned forward. They 458 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: weren't the biggest automaker in the world, but they thought 459 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 3: they were the best. So from the very beginning I 460 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 3: used to preach to my staff, you don't have to be. 461 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: Big to be great. You only have to be great. 462 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 3: And to me, being great is being smart, having smart people, 463 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: solving problems, doing things the right way, and doing things 464 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 3: far beyond the norm. And we learned that from organizations 465 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 3: like work. 466 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: Well, you had a remarkable access to gorillas that nobody 467 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: else could really compete with. At his peak. How many 468 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: total gorillas were in the. 469 00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 3: Exhibit, Well, at the time we were trying to give guerrillas, 470 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 3: we just had WILLI b But we were going to 471 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 3: try to get three breeding groups, and we ended up getting, 472 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 3: as I recall, ten or eleven guerrillas, about a half 473 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 3: dozen of rangutans. 474 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 2: And from the very day we. 475 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: Put them outside in the facility they began to breed, 476 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: so it was very quickly becoming what I had envisioned 477 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: as a population of groups. Those who had ever exhibited 478 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: a population before, they'd exhibit at most a group, maybe 479 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: two groups, but never a population many groups. We built 480 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 3: five habitats and one of them was a single small 481 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 3: habitat right in the middle. 482 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: For Willy B. 483 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: Because we had no idea whether B was going to 484 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 3: ever be anything but a solitary grill, but. 485 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: We had a thought that would give. 486 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 3: Him a chance. By the way, I just wrote a 487 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 3: book about Willy B. That book is going to be 488 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 3: published probably in August, and it's the whole story of 489 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 3: Willy B. Became the great social guerrilla, the great parent 490 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 3: five offspring, and everybody thought he was a dead but 491 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: it turned out to be most wonderful social grilla. 492 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: How many years had he been in isolation? 493 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: He was born in Africa, captured there. 494 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 3: He had been at the zoo since nineteen fifty nine, 495 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 3: and then it took another ten eleven twelve years to 496 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 3: build the exhibit, so he was a singleton grilla all 497 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 3: that time, about twenty seven years. And later on when 498 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 3: he became a social grilla, you would have never imagined 499 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: that animal could have ever been normal, because the theoreticians, 500 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: people like Harlow, had discovered that when you were socially 501 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 3: deprived or isolated long enough, he developed behaviors that made 502 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: it impossible for you to be normal. But he had skills. 503 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 3: Whether his mother and the group with his mother at 504 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: somehow inoculated him with enough awareness, or whether it was 505 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 3: the early experience with his keepers, I don't know what 506 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 3: happened to make that gorilla a social gorilla, but by God, 507 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: when he saw other gorillas, he warmed up to him, 508 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 3: and I remember the first day he copulated. It was 509 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 3: one of the biggest days of my life. I just 510 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 3: couldn't believe we've succeeded. 511 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: How long did that take from the time he met 512 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: his first gorilla to being intimate. 513 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: Just a couple of months. 514 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: Huh. He was able to break through the decades of 515 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: isolation pretty quickly. 516 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 3: Well, that's right. I don't think he really knew what 517 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 3: to do, but the females did, and the females sort 518 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 3: of sidled out. 519 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 2: They liked him. Every one of those females of that 520 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: zoo that came over from your hes liked Willy Be. 521 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 2: They used to come up to the edge of their 522 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: enclosures and. 523 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 3: Looking at him, and we all knew that he was attracted. 524 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 3: And they had silverback males in the group, but they'd rather. 525 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: Be with Willie. So when we finally put a group 526 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 2: together for Willie Boy, I mean he had a hair, I'm. 527 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 3: Like, unbelievable, and they all liked him so much, and 528 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 3: the little kids. 529 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 2: Liked him and they played on him and he let 530 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: him take food from it. He was amazing. 531 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,439 Speaker 3: That's the story I wrote, was how he had transformed 532 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 3: himself and give him credit. 533 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: That book will be out this summer. 534 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be out, probably, be honest. 535 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: One of the books you introduced me to was Franz 536 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 1: de Wall's Chimpanzee Politics, Yeah, which opens with a male 537 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: gorilla who had been bullying these two females until they 538 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: decided to form a team, and then he had to 539 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: be rescued by the keepers because they were going to 540 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: keep kill him if they didn't get him out of 541 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: the way. As a practicing politician, I found De Wall's 542 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: book on chimpanzee politics just amazingly helpful and a reminder 543 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: of why it's worthwhile I think for people to always 544 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: have an opening to the world of wild animals and 545 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: the world of systems that are beyond concrete and beyond 546 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: what we live in every single day. And I think, 547 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, you actually introduced me to Franz 548 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: at one point and we had a good chat. 549 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so remarkable man. 550 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 3: He came down and gave a speech here for a 551 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 3: first Charles Darwin birthday lecture that I set up with 552 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 3: the University of North of Florida, and it was a 553 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 3: brilliant speech. 554 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 2: He is a remarkable guy. 555 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 3: I met him when he was a graduate student in 556 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 3: Holland and I was very impressed with him. Of course, 557 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 3: he became such a great prolific writer. But it is 558 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 3: true if you know primatology, you understand human behavior much 559 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: better than most people. For example, what happens when a 560 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 3: leader falls. 561 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: Chaos suits. 562 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 3: It always does, and sometimes when this happens in humanity, 563 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 3: people are surprised. But I'm always leaning back and saying, well, 564 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 3: I could have predicted that, and the things that you said, 565 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 3: coalitions and the things that happened with the primates predictors 566 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 3: of what we do. 567 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 2: We're a lot like then. 568 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: But in a way I could just explore this with 569 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: you for a minute, because you're so amazingly knowledgeable about it. 570 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: There are significant differences between gorillas, chimpanzees, gibbons, orangutans and 571 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: how they interacted and how they sort of keep score 572 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: with life. I mean, so in a sense, you can 573 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: learn something from each one of them. Although I would 574 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: guess that we're probably more like chimpanzees and gorillas than 575 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: we are like orangutans and givens. That's my highly unprofessional observation. 576 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 3: Well, certainly there's no singular I mean model that answers 577 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 3: every question, but genetically we're more similar to chimpanzees than 578 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 3: any other species. Gorillas are posts are close, orangutans a 579 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,280 Speaker 3: little more distant, but they all have very big brains. 580 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 3: But they have different social systems. The gorilla lives in 581 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 3: family groups, chimpanzee lives in large aggregations. Orangutans are semi solitary. 582 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 3: Givens and seamongs is so called lesser apes are monogamous. 583 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 2: They are one of the very. 584 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 3: Few primates that's truly monogamous. So all of these things 585 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 3: are out there telling us that somehow we evolved with 586 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 3: a little. 587 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: Bit different way of behaving. 588 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 3: But they were pressures that made us who we are 589 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 3: in the same way they were. They evolved and in 590 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 3: many ways, the big brain is what really separates humans 591 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,439 Speaker 3: from all the other primates, and physiologists have determined that 592 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 3: the human brain shouldn't be as big as it is. 593 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 3: If you looked at the primates in some kind of 594 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 3: phylogenetic order, they line up as a beautiful regression line 595 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: until you get the humans, and then it jumps up. 596 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 2: Something happened with humans. 597 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 3: I won't speculate on what that is, but it might 598 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 3: be it has something to do with religion. 599 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 2: We're certainly different, and that is Christ. 600 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: I had a tiny taste of your life a few 601 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: years back. We went to Rwanda and went up to 602 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: about nine thousand feet on the mountain that Jane Fosse 603 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: had been on and actually got to see a fairly 604 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: large family of gorillas. And when you're out there in 605 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: the wild, it is amazing just the impact psychologically that 606 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: they have, and also how relatively unaggressive they are if 607 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: you don't get too close to them. I mean, they 608 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: don't see you as a threaten and they don't particularly 609 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: want to go out and threaten you. 610 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 3: Well, sorry to believe that people used to think that 611 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 3: they were very dangerous creatures that had to be hunted 612 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 3: and feared. Gargantua the gorilla was an example of that 613 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 3: king gone. But nothing could be further from the truth. 614 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 3: When you go and see real guerrillas now, they will fight, 615 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 3: they'll defend themselves that they need to. The cellar back 616 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 3: mail is very impressive, but when they're there in the 617 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 3: little group, it's the most peaceful thing they'll ever see. 618 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 3: I'm glad you had that privilege, because it really is 619 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 3: a privilege to set them on mon grulas and enjoy 620 00:40:54,560 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 3: their company. 621 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: You know, I'm very impressed, Torry. I don't know have 622 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: year range of experience, but I've been in zoo's in 623 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 1: a number of countries and consistently they are a magnet 624 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: for families with young children, and it's just astonishing. You know, 625 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: you'll see people with babies and baby carriages or in strollers, 626 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: and it's clear that going to the zoo is one 627 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: of the things that they do regularly that they get 628 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: something out of just the experience of being in that 629 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: kind of an environment. 630 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, families are They're a number one target mark. At 631 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 3: the same time, those zoos are becoming more exclusive. They're 632 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,399 Speaker 3: beginning to reach out to all populations. There are more 633 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 3: and more young people who don't want to have children, 634 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 3: I'm sorry to say, and they need places to go 635 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 3: as well. So we are beginning to understand that the 636 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 3: diversity of humans, with all their different needs and interests 637 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 3: and tendencies, they need zoos too. I've seen zoos doing 638 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 3: remarkable things to cater to all segments of society, and 639 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 3: particularly the minority communities, which have not been the target 640 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,760 Speaker 3: of zoos in the past, in part because zoos were 641 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 3: attempting to build a strong financial connections with these communities, 642 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 3: so they saw the wealthier suburbs as the place to 643 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 3: raise money and spent more time attending to those places. 644 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,479 Speaker 3: This got the Zoo and lantin trouble. And by the way, 645 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 3: just a small technical detail, the Zoological Society never got 646 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 3: the Zoo. They wanted it, but because they were well, 647 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 3: lily white and not diverse. The mayor young and the 648 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 3: others in the city that decided to change things decided. 649 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 2: To build a new board. 650 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,479 Speaker 3: And this board is one of the things that made 651 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 3: Atlanta unique. The society stayed as a support group and 652 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 3: they were very important, but the wisdom of our board 653 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 3: was it was gender balanced, it was balanced for ethnicity. 654 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 3: You know, in Atlanta it's primarily black white. That's the 655 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 3: issue then, and I think probably one of the first 656 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 3: nonprofits in Atlanta that was built that way. And at 657 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 3: the same time, the city said, we're giving this to 658 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 3: the private business sector. We're not going to run the 659 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 3: zoo anymore, but we will accept a public private partnership 660 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 3: down the line when you need bonding, will be. 661 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 2: There for you. 662 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 3: But we're not going to take the credit and we're 663 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 3: not going to take the blame for what happens anymore. 664 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,879 Speaker 3: It's up to you, Bob Holder and some of these 665 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 3: business people that took over. So the private sector, the society, 666 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 3: and the business community they stepped up. But it was 667 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 3: a remarkable partnership. I talk about it a lot in 668 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,800 Speaker 3: my new book. It's kind of amazing that the corporate, 669 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 3: government and academic communities came together in this thing and 670 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 3: found common ground and new I think, you know, as 671 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 3: we've talked about this, Zoolana was the Furst Zoo and 672 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 3: as a to private pize, and that trend has now 673 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 3: spread all over the country. Most news are some kind 674 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 3: of public private partnership. Very few of them are run 675 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 3: by government alone. 676 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you're an enormous pioneer. In fact, you have 677 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 1: written extensively, and on our show page we're going to 678 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: list your current books and we're also going to prelist 679 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: your upcoming book on Willie B so people be able 680 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,399 Speaker 1: to get it, and I hope sometimes we can come 681 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: back together again as old friends. I want to get 682 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: you just to talk about animals. I mean, I love animals. 683 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: I think we have a lot of folks who love animals, 684 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: and you have some amazing stories and a depth of 685 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,799 Speaker 1: knowledge that's pretty remarkable. And you're a great citizen both 686 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: for the country and frankly for the wildlife that we 687 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: have to have a positive strategy of trying to sustain. 688 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: So Terry, I want to thank you. This has been remarkable. 689 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: Even though I've known you from gosh over forty years, 690 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,320 Speaker 1: I know you a lot better after this conversation. 691 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 2: One knew. It is a pleasure. 692 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest doctor Terry Maple. You can 693 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: read more about why zoos Matter on our show page 694 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gainglish 695 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. 696 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 697 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 698 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: at Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I 699 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 700 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 701 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 702 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:48,400 Speaker 1: Newtsworld concerner from my three free weekly columns at ginglishtree 703 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 704 00:46:52,320 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 2: This is newts World