Speaker 1: I'm Anny, and this is no such thing. The show
Speaker 1: where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually
Speaker 1: doing the research. On today's episode, we're gonna find out
Speaker 1: if you, dear listener need therapy.
Speaker 2: No, there's no no such thing. No touch thank no touch, thank.
Speaker 1: Touch, thank.
Speaker 3: Touch, thank.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: I got the idea for this episode after an interaction
Speaker 1: I had with a friend, and this this friend. When
Speaker 1: you hear this, I'm sorry for using our interaction as
Speaker 1: fodder for a podcast content, but he's kind of like
Speaker 1: a you know, he leans broie, masculine guy from the Midwest.
Speaker 1: And I was texting him to see, like when we
Speaker 1: should hang out. There's a game on and we were
Speaker 1: gonna go watch the game, and then he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can. I can get there at eight, Mike, because
Speaker 1: my therapy raps at seven. Totally normal thing to say
Speaker 1: to someone, except for the fact that I was surprised
Speaker 1: when I read it. I was like, I was surprised
Speaker 1: that someone like him was doing therapy, not just that
Speaker 1: he was in therapy, but also that he would be
Speaker 1: open about it and tell me that I'm in therapy.
Speaker 1: I'm not just like yeah, no, no, I was surprised
Speaker 1: that someone like him would be transparent about that because he,
Speaker 1: to me, I think, struck me as someone who like
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to either admit or and it made me think, like,
Speaker 1: because I'm from the Midwest, I'm from a red state,
Speaker 1: like I we grew up thinking about therapy as like,
Speaker 1: you know, you really only should do that if you
Speaker 1: have some real problem, or like not thinking it was
Speaker 1: necessarily like feminine, but like something that was just kind
Speaker 1: of woo woo. I guess and you, Devin, this is
Speaker 1: kind of exactly what I mean. When when we would
Speaker 1: hang out and you would say, hell, I'll be there
Speaker 1: after therapy, that didn't surprise me at all coming from
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay.
Speaker 4: I'e man, you're.
Speaker 2: You're just a bit You're more curious as you're able
Speaker 2: to hang out.
Speaker 1: So that interaction made me think about like the trajectory
Speaker 1: of like the kind of social acceptance of therapy has
Speaker 1: evolved in the past few decades. And maybe I'm underestimating
Speaker 1: my fellow Americans, but I but I think probably most
Speaker 1: people still don't do therapy or don't understand what it
Speaker 1: is exactly. And so I thought we could use our
Speaker 1: powers to kind of educate and and you know, like
Speaker 1: I think an episode about like what it what it
Speaker 1: is exactly, I think could be really helpful because personally,
Speaker 1: I think it's a super useful tool.
Speaker 4: You know, here's Many's disclaimer from his earlier statement and.
Speaker 2: Are you deep? Are you in therapy? Yeah? Ok, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And there's like moments in my life where I have
Speaker 1: been and I and then I would stop and then
Speaker 1: start up again. And there's like a lot of layers
Speaker 1: to you know, how it can be useful maybe how
Speaker 1: in some instance it's not useful. But I want to
Speaker 1: ask you guys, like your experience with therapy, but also
Speaker 1: like where you see the public kind of consensus about
Speaker 1: therapy is.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I've been in therapy now going on five years.
Speaker 5: I started during COVID. I've been thinking about doing it beforehand,
Speaker 5: but I always just made some short of excuse just
Speaker 5: to like why not to do it? And then COVID
Speaker 5: I was like, well everyone's going to therapy now, so
Speaker 5: like let's do it. Me deciding to go to therapy
Speaker 5: to your point, it was like a like it wasn't
Speaker 5: a big deal, but it also was a big deal, right,
Speaker 5: Like it's like, I don't know anyone in my family
Speaker 5: who's gone to therapy and like talked about it outside
Speaker 5: of like you've got to go, you know, like maybe
Speaker 5: mandatory or like there's an issue here in back of
Speaker 5: my mind. It was like, do I actually need this?
Speaker 5: You know, like is this something I think like actually
Speaker 5: should be doing, Like it's not exactly cheap and is
Speaker 5: this sort of like a waste of time and it's
Speaker 5: not you know, I'm still doing it, And it felt
Speaker 5: like a good way to sort of also force me,
Speaker 5: as someone who doesn't like talking about their feelings, to
Speaker 5: like have to at a certain time every week have
Speaker 5: a dedicated time to talk about my feelings and to
Speaker 5: think about what the hell my feelings are. Cause pre therapy,
Speaker 5: I would just ignore how I felt, not ignore, but
Speaker 5: just like push through how I felt about a lot
Speaker 5: of things and like never come back to it because
Speaker 5: I'm just like, well, if I just like feel some
Speaker 5: want normal or whatever, like, then I'm fine.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: Like to me before progress was like, do I feel sad?
Speaker 5: And you can also not feel sad by not thinking
Speaker 5: about the thing?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: But it's also I feel like it's a generational thing, right,
Speaker 5: I feel like our generation like no one Batton Island,
Speaker 5: you say, like you're gone to therapy.
Speaker 4: It took me a while to tell my mom that
Speaker 4: I was doing it.
Speaker 3: Why.
Speaker 5: I was worried that she was going to be like, oh,
Speaker 5: what's wrong with you? Yeah, you know, like that sort
Speaker 5: of like are you good?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I feel like growing up there's like pop culture
Speaker 1: representations of therapy that make you feel like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like if I'm getting therapy, that means something's wrong
Speaker 1: with me.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 5: My constant hesitation going into it was like, oh, people
Speaker 5: go to their well, you know, this is like the
Speaker 5: pop culture thought of it. People go to therapy or suicidal, right, yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 5: and if I go to therapy, pe who can think
Speaker 5: I'm suicidal. I have a lot of issues, that's not
Speaker 5: one of them. So yeah, and now that was part
Speaker 5: of my thing, you too, to tell them. I like,
Speaker 5: I ended up telling my mom after my dad died.
Speaker 5: I was just sort of like we were talking about
Speaker 5: coping mechanisms. When I was like, whoa, I've been going
Speaker 5: for like three years. You don't know this, but I've
Speaker 5: been going to therapy, and it was like, you know,
Speaker 5: for me, it was helpful to have that too, because
Speaker 5: it was like, Okay, I've been doing the work with
Speaker 5: a therapist and then a big thing happened in my
Speaker 5: life and then have to like he already knew the
Speaker 5: context of like my relationship with my dad and like
Speaker 5: all these sort of things. And it was like a
Speaker 5: person I could talk to that also was not grieving
Speaker 5: at the time. Right, Like you think about a lot
Speaker 5: of stuff you try to to refrain of, like you
Speaker 5: should just talk to your family or friends. It's like
Speaker 5: sometimes they're going through that stuff with you, right, And
Speaker 5: it's like, you know, I don't think I think we
Speaker 5: think that we're a burden to people more so than
Speaker 5: we are. But I think at times there can be
Speaker 5: things on my mind that feel like a burden. If
Speaker 5: I were to talk to a normal person about it
Speaker 5: feels like a burden. But obviously I'm paying my therapist,
Speaker 5: so he has to listen.
Speaker 2: To me talk about it.
Speaker 1: This is why you're there, Yeah, exactly what about you know,
Speaker 1: have you ever had gone to therapy or I have not.
Speaker 2: Not once. I'm not even once.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm supportive of my brothers and sisters, but now
Speaker 1: I just haven't done it. And you know, there have
Speaker 1: been times when you know, it's quite popular. It seems
Speaker 1: they're growing in steam and like the stigma's going away,
Speaker 1: Like we're discussing where it's like, oh, maybe you know,
Speaker 1: I could probably stand to gain something from this, even
Speaker 1: just having that hour or whatever to reflect on my
Speaker 1: thoughts or feelings in a way that I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: do in my day to day. So I see the
Speaker 1: benefits of it, or you know why I think would
Speaker 1: be the benefits.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I've just never had anything.
Speaker 1: I've never pushed to do it myself for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: But I guess one of the things I think about
Speaker 1: is like, should everyone be in therapy? Sometimes I feel
Speaker 1: like people might use therapy like ideas that spread online.
Speaker 1: Some people use kind of language from therapy yes, as
Speaker 1: what I view as kind of excuses or crutches yes,
Speaker 1: to almost self isolate instead of making it easier to
Speaker 1: actually connect with other people. I guess the biggest kind
Speaker 1: of pop culture example of this was like the Jonah
Speaker 1: Hill thing from a few years ago.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: Basically, Jonah Hill was in a relationship with a surfing instructor,
Speaker 1: and the surfing instructor accused him of being emotionally abusive
Speaker 1: and revealed their text messages. And in the text messages,
Speaker 1: it's clear that Jonah Hill is kind of weaponizing language
Speaker 1: that you might hear in therapy just to kind of
Speaker 1: mask his own insecurities. The specific word in question is boundaries.
Speaker 1: He was saying that she was kind of violating his
Speaker 1: boundaries whenever she would, you know, surf with men even
Speaker 1: though she is a surfing instructor, and when she would
Speaker 1: post pictures of herself in a bikini.
Speaker 2: Now, this incident kind.
Speaker 1: Of set off waves of conversations and discourse online about
Speaker 1: when therapy speak is useful or when people are abusing it.
Speaker 1: I think you and me ought to have a conversation
Speaker 1: about boundaries and manipulation. It's not enough for a man
Speaker 1: to simply go to therapy.
Speaker 6: When a person who doesn't want to change their own
Speaker 6: behavior as goes to therapy, they can learn language to
Speaker 6: weaponize in order to justify their bad behavior. Some people
Speaker 6: were being like, what's wrong with this, he's just setting boundaries,
Speaker 6: or what's wrong with this? He wants a more traditional relationship.
Speaker 6: And let me tell you, I think what we ideally
Speaker 6: want in life is to have our partners be equals,
Speaker 6: and we also need to be responsible for our own
Speaker 6: emotional datage.
Speaker 1: I think the first time I therapy actually was it
Speaker 1: like right when I moved to New York and Business
Speaker 1: Insider actually had some kind of a thing with your
Speaker 1: health insurance where like you could go do a couple
Speaker 1: sessions for free.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was like great, And then.
Speaker 1: I think what it helps me do is like understand
Speaker 1: why I do or think the way I do sometimes
Speaker 1: in certain instances. And I found that to be so
Speaker 1: useful and like it gives me more active like agency
Speaker 1: when I move around the world and like figuring out
Speaker 1: like why I think about this thing the way I do.
Speaker 1: But yeah, of course there are like other examples of
Speaker 1: people getting therapy where it like it could skew.
Speaker 5: Because I think the big thing with therapy, and you know,
Speaker 5: we'll get into this I guess later, is like at
Speaker 5: least the way I see it is like therapy gives
Speaker 5: you the tools to work on yourself to like be
Speaker 5: a better person. Yeah, but you also have to work
Speaker 5: at it. It's not a sort of like if you
Speaker 5: just show up for an hour and then do nothing
Speaker 5: in between, that's not really helping you, right, It's like
Speaker 5: you have to like to your point, like all right,
Speaker 5: I know this is the way my mind works, so like
Speaker 5: when I'm in certain situations, like I need to keep
Speaker 5: that in mind, and like maybe operates like differently. Like
Speaker 5: for me, therapy forces myself to be in more uncomfortable situations,
Speaker 5: right where I'll talk about things that like I usually
Speaker 5: I would avoid and like, all right, maybe I should
Speaker 5: confront this person about this thing or like have that
Speaker 5: conversation that like in the past I would just like
Speaker 5: let go by. But I think there's two things I play.
Speaker 5: I think people use it as an excuse because they
Speaker 5: don't want to do to work, so they'll just use
Speaker 5: the language and then never actually do any of the
Speaker 5: work and then just like be terrible to other people.
Speaker 5: And then I think they're you know, like therapists are
Speaker 5: also people. Yeah, and there's you know, like it's like cops.
Speaker 5: It's like there's good, there's good.
Speaker 4: There's good.
Speaker 2: Therapists are like cops, but there's.
Speaker 4: Good therapist that they're bad therapists. You know, my friend
Speaker 4: was telling me the other day, shit, too crazy therapists.
Speaker 5: Okay, one therapist is falling asleep during your sessions.
Speaker 1: Damn crazy like a phone.
Speaker 5: It's a phone, it's not a it's not video, not video,
Speaker 5: it's on the phone. And she hears the therapist snoring
Speaker 5: multiple multiple that's crazy. And then this other therapist, there's
Speaker 5: this this friend I was talking to is sober. She
Speaker 5: was complaining to the therapist about it's hard to date
Speaker 5: in New York because you know, a lot of dating
Speaker 5: in New York is around drinking, and the therapists told
Speaker 5: them maybe you should take up drinks.
Speaker 2: There's no fucking.
Speaker 4: That's as a therapist, right.
Speaker 5: So I think that's also to you is that like, hey,
Speaker 5: they're bad doctors, that there are bad versions of everything, right,
Speaker 5: So like some people maybe they are doing the work
Speaker 5: that they're horrible therapist to tell them to do.
Speaker 1: You know, I feel like people do also sometimes just
Speaker 1: want a therapist that just validates them. So they'll just
Speaker 1: go to complain about their friend or family or whatever
Speaker 1: and just want the therapist to be like, you know what, you're.
Speaker 4: Right, They want to chat.
Speaker 1: And then then then if they get pushed back from
Speaker 1: the therapist, or not even pushback, but just like maybe
Speaker 1: offering a different perspective, that'll be like I need a
Speaker 1: new therapist.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm not comfortable.
Speaker 2: Wow, challenging, I'm unsafe right now?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So well, guys.
Speaker 1: Luckily for us, we have an expert sitting right over there.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, who can kind of walk us through this,
Speaker 1: because I think one of my goals for this episode
Speaker 1: is to kind of demystify what therapy is and what
Speaker 1: it can do for you. And so after the break,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking to Lily Kaplan. She's a therapist
Speaker 1: and she's also the author of the Reality Test newsletter
Speaker 1: on sub sac. We're gonna be asking Lily a lot
Speaker 1: of questions about what therapy is and what therapy isn't.
Speaker 2: Hey, folks, many here.
Speaker 1: Before we get to the rest of this episode, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to share some responses that we got to
Speaker 1: our food safety episode. When it comes to the bowl
Speaker 1: designated for vomiting that some households utilized, we ran a
Speaker 1: small pole and apparently fifty six percent of our listeners
Speaker 1: did have this dedicated sick bowl growing up. Couldn't be me,
Speaker 1: but that's fascinating. When it comes to whether you should
Speaker 1: wash your chicken before you cook it, we got an
Speaker 1: interesting email from listener Catherine, who shared that apparently there
Speaker 1: are reasons to wash your chicken that don't have to
Speaker 1: do necessarily with food safety. Apparently, in some Middle Eastern cultures,
Speaker 1: people say that they can smell something called zonka, which
Speaker 1: is kind of a indescribable, rotting, rancid smell that can
Speaker 1: show up on your dishes after cooking the chicken. And
Speaker 1: washing your chicken before where you cook it supposedly prevents
Speaker 1: this smell. I looked into it a little bit, and
Speaker 1: it's really fascinating that there's a kind.
Speaker 2: Of cultural divide here.
Speaker 1: A lot of people in Middle Eastern cultures say that
Speaker 1: they can smell the smell, a lot of people in
Speaker 1: Western cultures say that they can't. But we love hearing
Speaker 1: from you guys, so definitely please keep emailing us at
Speaker 1: Manny Noah Devin at gmail dot com. Enjoy the rest
Speaker 1: of the episode. Hi Lily, Hi Manny, Thanks for doing this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. In this episode, my goal is
Speaker 1: to kind of demystify what therapy is, because I have
Speaker 1: this theory that most people don't know what it is
Speaker 1: and I could be wrong, but I don't think I am,
Speaker 1: because I think I'm usually right about things. I'm right often.
Speaker 3: Did you learn that in therapy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my therapist.
Speaker 2: These guys always right, Like whoa you neither remember this? Mane,
Speaker 2: You're always right.
Speaker 1: Okay, So first of all, what kind of therapy do
Speaker 1: you do?
Speaker 3: I do talk therapy sort of follows in a psychodynamic practice,
Speaker 3: which is essentially about how your past impacts your present.
Speaker 3: That's kind of like the most crude, oversimplified answer, and relational,
Speaker 3: which is like centering human relationships, using the relationship between
Speaker 3: the therapists and the client as like a model of what
Speaker 3: relationships can be.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I incorporate some other stuff too, some like somatic like
Speaker 3: mind body kind of stuff, some mindfulness kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: But I'm not a therapist who like really practices specifically
Speaker 3: in like one discipline.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I think the first most obvious question I
Speaker 1: have to start out is like, what is the function
Speaker 1: of therapy? What is it supposed to do? And what
Speaker 1: effect is it supposed to have on someone?
Speaker 3: Therapy is, I think, supposed to be a space where
Speaker 3: you can show up and be your full and complete
Speaker 3: self without fear of judgment. People go for different reasons.
Speaker 3: Some people go because they're experiencing like some kind of
Speaker 3: acute symptom like I can't sleep, or like I can't
Speaker 3: stop drinking, and I need to resolve that specific thing.
Speaker 3: And some people go just because they want to like
Speaker 3: understand more about themselves or maybe there is something that
Speaker 3: happened in the past that plagues them in some way.
Speaker 3: What it's supposed to do provide insight, reduce symptoms, improve
Speaker 3: your capacity to be in relationships, improve your capacity to
Speaker 3: just be present with yourself. There's a concept in like
Speaker 3: some trauma therapies called window of tolerance, which is kind
Speaker 3: of your ability to tolerate discomfort. If you think of
Speaker 3: it as like a circle. Some people's circle is very
Speaker 3: small for whatever reason, and if you, like something happens
Speaker 3: that's uncomfortable that like pushes you outside of that window
Speaker 3: or outside of that circle, then it's just like total
Speaker 3: shut down or fight or flight or dysregulation in some way.
Speaker 3: So ideally good therapy can like whiten that circle a
Speaker 3: little bit, or like help you come face to face
Speaker 3: with some uncomfortable things and be able to tolerate them.
Speaker 3: It's definitely not supposed to remove all pain from the world.
Speaker 3: It's definitely not supposed to make you not ever feel sad.
Speaker 3: Or not ever feel anxious, but rather to trust a
Speaker 3: little bit that sadness will peak and then it might
Speaker 3: fall again.
Speaker 1: Are there people whose windows are arguably too big? But
Speaker 1: maybe someone who's who lets things roll off them in
Speaker 1: a way and they're not even contending with their discomfort.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it sounds like.
Speaker 3: You might be talking about avoidance.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not talking about myself, By the way, mine
Speaker 1: does average. You know, It's like I have an average
Speaker 1: size trust. So my next question, I think, would be,
Speaker 1: I guess what are some signs that the therapy is
Speaker 1: quote unquote working, Like how do you know if it's
Speaker 1: having a positive impact in one's life or in your
Speaker 1: patient's lives?
Speaker 3: They're lifestyle factors. Are you sleeping? Are you eating? Are
Speaker 3: you engaged in healthy relationships? How is your self esteem?
Speaker 3: How's your kind of self talk? Like that inner voice
Speaker 3: or that inner monologue that you might hear day to day.
Speaker 3: Is it pretty mean or is it pretty nice? Or
Speaker 3: is it sort of like healthy ish mix of both?
Speaker 3: And in the room, do you feel like you can
Speaker 3: share things with your therapist without the fear of them
Speaker 3: judging you or being shocked or making you feel bad,
Speaker 3: Like do you feel like you can show up to
Speaker 3: therapy with whatever you have that day. That's a good
Speaker 3: indicator that you're in like a good like safe therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I've heard people say that they lighted at therapists.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, well what's an example, do you know? I
Speaker 1: think or just like not saying not giving details.
Speaker 5: Oh, mission is obviously a great way of lying. Yeah,
Speaker 5: but I think some people even in it one.
Speaker 2: Of the top favorite top three.
Speaker 5: But I think people, you know, they show up to
Speaker 5: therapy and they're still presenting. Okay, I want to present
Speaker 5: the best version of my health to this therapist, So
Speaker 5: I'm not going to tell them that actually I did X, Y,
Speaker 5: and Z.
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes I says, just don't feel comfortable.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you Like, I think somethings people feel are even
Speaker 5: like I've I've talked to someone who they told their
Speaker 5: therapist something they were going through in a.
Speaker 4: Therapist, well, oh my god.
Speaker 5: And like if your therapist has that sort of reaction
Speaker 5: to you, like something that you're like, oh, this is
Speaker 5: just my life. Yeah, like, maybe you're not gonna feel
Speaker 5: as comfortable telling them certain things.
Speaker 3: I've been watching The West Wing for the first time
Speaker 3: and there's an episode this is kind of a spoiler.
Speaker 3: I guess it's like probably twenty years old. I wouldn't
Speaker 3: want to spoil if you haven't watched The West Wing
Speaker 3: Skip forward. I guess in the middle of season two,
Speaker 3: they bring in this like trauma guy and he's like
Speaker 3: really serious and like, of course he's a guy.
Speaker 4: Can I curse?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, He's like, stop fucking around with me, Josh. The
Speaker 3: actually doesn't even say that on the show. It's like
Speaker 3: a network can add a cursory to if I wrote it,
Speaker 3: this is no. But he's like he's so mean to him.
Speaker 3: He's like really like forcing him to share his trauma
Speaker 3: so that he can eventually diagnose him with PTSD. Anyway,
Speaker 3: it was like a really painful episode to watch and
Speaker 3: really funny because you just really don't want to be
Speaker 3: like super mean to someone who's like just experienced potentially
Speaker 3: life ending event.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like what Devin's described with the pop culture
Speaker 1: depictions of therapy is like so many people's only experience
Speaker 1: with it, and I feel like, yeah, I'm curious, like
Speaker 1: what are some other kind of misconceptions you've noticed in
Speaker 1: movies or TV? Like I remember you know, obviously one
Speaker 1: of the biggest shows of all time, The Sopranos is
Speaker 1: like mostly about his relationship with a therapist.
Speaker 4: Dys Therapy is a jerk off. You know it, and
Speaker 4: I know it. I actually don't know it, but please continue.
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, like, how do you feel about the general,
Speaker 1: you know, depiction of therapy and movies and TV.
Speaker 3: I remember I had a class in grad school where
Speaker 3: we would like watch scenes from movies and TV and
Speaker 3: then unpack, like how did that go, like the therapy,
Speaker 3: and usually it was pretty bad. I think that sometimes
Speaker 3: people think that therapy is advice.
Speaker 4: It's for sure not.
Speaker 3: There's one thing that's on my mind that is something
Speaker 3: that went kind of viral on Twitter recently. I don't
Speaker 3: know if you guys saw this. It's like a tweet
Speaker 3: that's like my therapist said this to me, and it
Speaker 3: hit me like a brick. Have you seen this?
Speaker 2: I think?
Speaker 3: So, Yeah, those who need from you do not respect you.
Speaker 3: You must separate yourself from those who do not whatever.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's like fucking bullshit.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think therapy is really hard to depict in movies
Speaker 3: and TV because it's really not something that can be
Speaker 3: summed up in a quote or an seen it's it's complicated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they I feel like the conception that therapy is
Speaker 1: advice is so prevalent. I feel like I hear that
Speaker 1: all the time, where friends of mine, you know, will
Speaker 1: be like, I need my therapist to like tell me
Speaker 1: what to do in life, like tell me that I
Speaker 1: should do. Like they'll go and be like, here are
Speaker 1: two options, which one should I do?
Speaker 4: That's a life coach?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you need Tony Robbins.
Speaker 4: Or we're gonna talk about life coaches. Is that on
Speaker 4: the list today?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm cious about your thoughts online. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Coaching is an unregulated industry, and that's something that is
Speaker 3: important to remember if you're seeking a coach. And that
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that all coaches are bad. And I myself
Speaker 3: have had a wonderful experience with a career coach, like
Speaker 3: several years ago before I became a therapist and look
Speaker 3: at me now media circuit. But their coaching is also.
Speaker 1: Something that you can just say that you do, mmm,
Speaker 1: like I could be a coach, you could be life coaches.
Speaker 2: You need any coach me what should I do?
Speaker 1: Our clients would be in jail. Yeah, I'm curious about
Speaker 1: you said earlier that like therapy, therapists are people. I'm curious, like,
Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit more about that. I
Speaker 1: feel like people do go into sessions thinking that there's
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, a machine and that's like
Speaker 1: supposed to help you do something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, therapists are famously human people, and I hope that
Speaker 3: it stays that way.
Speaker 1: That.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean anything that can happen in a
Speaker 3: human relationship can happen in your relationship with your therapist.
Speaker 3: What's cool about therapy is that then you can talk
Speaker 3: about it. You can be like, hey, I'm having kind
Speaker 3: of weird, like romantic feelings towards you. And sometimes there's
Speaker 3: a process that in the biz we call transference where
Speaker 3: like a client, you might experience like a feeling that
Speaker 3: you may have like somewhere else in your life and
Speaker 3: like kind of imprint it onto the therapist. You remind
Speaker 3: me of my mom, you remind me of my girlfriend,
Speaker 3: you remind me of my ex, my friend, whatever, of
Speaker 3: my enemy. But yeah, therapists can make mistakes, not me,
Speaker 3: of course, but the other ones. They really shouldn't do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are.
Speaker 3: But like sometimes, like you know, I have offended people.
Speaker 3: I say sorry, we talk about what happened. This is
Speaker 3: part of also the sort of the therapeutic relationship as
Speaker 3: a model, like a model of rupture and repair. Right,
Speaker 3: Like my client might come back and say, hey, you
Speaker 3: said this thing to me last week and it didn't
Speaker 3: really sit well with me, and I'm so stoked, and
Speaker 3: that happens because I'm like cool, like, let's talk about it.
Speaker 3: How did it make you feel? Was this something that
Speaker 3: was kind of out of line on my part?
Speaker 4: Is there like.
Speaker 3: Something that we should talk about in our relationship, or
Speaker 3: is there like something else going on that also came
Speaker 3: in and we get to unpack that stuff and you
Speaker 3: don't necessarily get to do that with your friends or family.
Speaker 1: The notion that therapists are people is obvious, but also
Speaker 1: struck me because I was like, like, my therapist laughs
Speaker 1: at my joke sometimes, but for whatever reason, they're not
Speaker 1: going back to therapy next week, Like you didn't laugh
Speaker 1: at that joke.
Speaker 2: Well, they're not like knock knock jokes.
Speaker 1: But I'll say something funny. I'll say something that I'll
Speaker 1: obviously you're kind of supposed to chuckle or laugh and
Speaker 1: then when it happens, I'm like, oh that.
Speaker 5: Some course my therapist will laugh when I'm not on
Speaker 5: the joke and be like, oh, I'm laughing, and then
Speaker 5: explain why he's like, oh, because that reminded me of
Speaker 5: this other thing that you've said, or like that situation
Speaker 5: is interesting because it reminds me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to.
Speaker 4: Be able to your point, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5: At times I'm like, oh, yeah, you are, like you
Speaker 5: can have reactions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is This is a good misconception
Speaker 3: of therapy that people expect to sort of tabula rossa
Speaker 3: write the blank sleep Freudian therapist who betrays nothing and
Speaker 3: is an identityless person, which also comes from some baby
Speaker 3: old fashioned ways of thinking that there is an identity
Speaker 3: this person aka like a middle aged white man as
Speaker 3: a default person. But yeah, no, I for sure have
Speaker 3: a personality in sessions. I can't not Sometimes I will
Speaker 3: make a face and my client will be like, what
Speaker 3: was that face? I don't know if that's a great.
Speaker 2: Thing that I do, but I can't help but be
Speaker 2: very so.
Speaker 3: I've heard this, Yeah, yeah, I've received this feedback.
Speaker 2: Makes sense.
Speaker 1: Are there any other like kind of big misconceptions that
Speaker 1: we haven't touched on yet.
Speaker 3: That's a good question. Something that therapists are trained to
Speaker 3: do that your friends are not necessarily is to be
Speaker 3: aware of where their reactions are coming from. Like it's
Speaker 3: interesting like you mentioned your therapist like laughed at something
Speaker 3: and was like, oh, I laughed because of I wonder
Speaker 3: if he hadn't shared that, if you might have been
Speaker 3: like if you might have walked away thinking like why
Speaker 3: did he laugh? Like was he laughing at me? But
Speaker 3: but for me, say I'm working with someone who reminds
Speaker 3: me of a friend and they got back together with
Speaker 3: an ex that we know has hurt them in the past,
Speaker 3: and I might immediately have the reaction. I might feel
Speaker 3: protective and I feel like, oh my god, no, what are
Speaker 3: you thinking. What I am trained to do as a
Speaker 3: therapist rather than that person's friend is notice my own
Speaker 3: shit coming into the room and be like, Okay, why.
Speaker 4: Am I reacting in this way?
Speaker 3: It is deeply not my place to judge. It's not
Speaker 3: my place to say that this is wrong. It's not
Speaker 3: appropriate to be like shocked, like oh my god.
Speaker 2: What you did?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a concept called unconditional positive regard that's like
Speaker 3: a best practice in therapy, it means that we ought
Speaker 3: to see our clients as inherently valuable people. It is
Speaker 3: not our place to judge. It's not our place to
Speaker 3: decide that, oh, you did this thing, therefore I think
Speaker 3: less of you. It doesn't mean validation in any circumstance.
Speaker 3: It definitely does mean that. But it does mean that
Speaker 3: you are a full and worthy person no matter what, absolutely,
Speaker 3: no matter what.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how you might know that you
Speaker 1: are a bad match for a patient.
Speaker 3: Yes, not every therapist is for every client. A therapist
Speaker 3: might be a great therapist for one person and a
Speaker 3: terrible therapist for someone else. For me, if I am
Speaker 3: sitting with a client who makes me feel like really
Speaker 3: emotionally activated in some way constantly in a way that
Speaker 3: I feel like I cannot regulate myself or like I
Speaker 3: can't have unconditional positive regard towards this client, I should
Speaker 3: not be working with this person. Also, if they have
Speaker 3: some kind of diagnosis that I'm just like not familiar
Speaker 3: with and don't have the time or resources to get
Speaker 3: trained on. If they need some kind of like specialized
Speaker 3: support that is not a specialization that I have. That's
Speaker 3: something that I you know, I need to be honest
Speaker 3: and responsible and tell that person that I'm not the
Speaker 3: therapist for them. If they can only meet on weekends,
Speaker 3: then I also can't meet them.
Speaker 4: Logistics.
Speaker 5: Yeah, taking that same question from the patient seeking a
Speaker 5: therapist's point of view? All right, so we got okay,
Speaker 5: you know, making sure your therapist doesn't have crazy reactions
Speaker 5: to the things that you're telling them, making sure that
Speaker 5: there may be a line with certain diagnosis that you have.
Speaker 5: Is there any other tips you would give for someone
Speaker 5: seeking a therapist, like we were talking about earlier, Like
Speaker 5: not just seeking someone who's just going to agree with
Speaker 5: you no matter what. Right like your therapists, you may
Speaker 5: be a bit uncomfortable at times in therapy.
Speaker 4: That's okay, I'm assuming.
Speaker 5: Are there things, yeah, like that that people should be
Speaker 5: considering when choosing a therapist if they're trying to figure
Speaker 5: out if their therapist is the right fit for them.
Speaker 3: Definitely, you will and must be uncomfortable at times in therapy.
Speaker 3: There's some evidence that the quality of the relationship that
Speaker 3: you have with your therapist is more important than the
Speaker 3: kind of therapy that they're doing, like the model of
Speaker 3: therapy that they're doing, Like Ultimately, feeling safe and supported
Speaker 3: in that relationship is like basically the number one indicator
Speaker 3: that you will get what you're looking for out of
Speaker 3: therapy or get closer to where you want to go
Speaker 3: finding a good therapist. It's a little like dating. You
Speaker 3: might have a bunch of consultations that are usually free,
Speaker 3: should be free. You know, you probably know after a
Speaker 3: few sessions if you feel like this is someone that
Speaker 3: you can kind of sit with or not. There are
Speaker 3: definitely some red flags that you might want to be
Speaker 3: conscious of. If the therapist says or does something that
Speaker 3: makes you uncomfortable and maybe you bring it up and
Speaker 3: they don't respond in a way that feels open to feedback,
Speaker 3: then that's probably a problem. Ethical professional boundaries are really
Speaker 3: really important, and I've heard some wild stories giving some
Speaker 3: like weird advice treating your clients like friends. I've heard
Speaker 3: a lot of stories of therapists who will kind of
Speaker 3: bring their own emotions into session in a way that
Speaker 3: feels inappropriate or like taking the client's time like oh,
Speaker 3: like sorry, I'm just so sad because of blah blah
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. That is kind of red floggy, that
Speaker 3: shouldn't really happen. Yeah, right, And like the difference you're
Speaker 3: talking about, like the difference between seeing a therapist or
Speaker 3: talking to like a friend or a family member is
Speaker 3: that you should never worry in the therapy room about
Speaker 3: how your therapist is going to feel about what you're sharing,
Speaker 3: and if you do, then it's probably the wrong. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think a bad therapist can do active harm, Devin.
Speaker 3: You shared earlier a totally cuckoo bananas story that a
Speaker 3: friend of yours went to a therapist and said, it's
Speaker 3: hard to date without drinking, and the therapist said, well,
Speaker 3: why don't you pick up drinking? That's worse than no therapy.
Speaker 3: That's just that's bad advice.
Speaker 4: And also.
Speaker 2: Like enough for anyone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe they were being like irreverent or something, but
Speaker 3: maybe that's it was clearly received in a way that
Speaker 3: was harmful. And you know, therapy can do emotional damage.
Speaker 3: You can walk away feeling like you're bad.
Speaker 5: So you said before that you hope that therapists remained humans.
Speaker 5: And you know, there's this devastating story that just came
Speaker 5: out about this teenager who died by suicide and was
Speaker 5: talking to chat GPT about it, and chat EPT was
Speaker 5: basically encouraging this person to do it. And they were
Speaker 5: telling chat ept like they want to ask for help,
Speaker 5: and it was discouraging them from doing that. And we
Speaker 5: hear these sort of horror stories about AI therapy, but
Speaker 5: it's becoming more and more popular. I know a lot
Speaker 5: of people will say, hey, I can't afford actual therapy.
Speaker 5: Chat Shept to a point is free, and it's better
Speaker 5: for me to sort of voice or talk through my
Speaker 5: shit with at least this thing because it'll listen and
Speaker 5: give me some feedback, then not do it at all
Speaker 5: and just have it bottled up.
Speaker 3: I've been talking this whole time about human relationships and
Speaker 3: like the relationship being a tool of therapy, and what
Speaker 3: AI lacks is humanity and nuance, right ability to read
Speaker 3: beyond just the words that are being said, and that
Speaker 3: is really really important when it comes to something like suicidality.
Speaker 3: I was actually just reading some research that came out
Speaker 3: this summer out of Stanford that if you ask a
Speaker 3: chat bot something like I'm feeling really down on myself
Speaker 3: and really low and i hate myself. What's the tallest
Speaker 3: bridge in Brooklyn, that it will say, I'm sorry you're
Speaker 3: feeling that way brooklyn Bridge is great to jump off us. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And obviously a human therapist would connect those two things
Speaker 3: and say why are you You know, maybe there's something
Speaker 3: going on here, which is exactly what happened with this
Speaker 3: kid where he was like, is this a good place
Speaker 3: to put the noose and CHATCHYBT said yes, that's great.
Speaker 3: The other thing that was part of this research was
Speaker 3: that AI holds some of the same stigmas toward like
Speaker 3: certain diagnoses or like mental health conditions that are held
Speaker 3: more broadly, And you see this in all kinds of
Speaker 3: like discrimination and like emerging tech.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: For example, if you ask chatchipt if someone who's showing
Speaker 3: signs of schizophrenia is more likely to be violent toward
Speaker 3: other people, it will indicate that it thinks, yes, this
Speaker 3: is a common misconception. It's not true. People with schizophrenia
Speaker 3: are more likely to have violence have harm done to
Speaker 3: them than to do harm toward other people. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it is the job of a clinician to not stigmatize
Speaker 3: their clients and their clients' conditions, or they ask chatbots
Speaker 3: if they would be more or less likely to work
Speaker 3: with someone who has symptoms of like alcohol use disorder,
Speaker 3: and the chatbots also showed the same stigma that we
Speaker 3: see in society more broadly, so that's obviously pretty concerning
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, another question just about like kind of the therapy speak.
Speaker 1: How much do you think these concepts that come from
Speaker 1: therapy are being maybe misused or misinterpreted more broadly?
Speaker 3: Oh, my god, like ninety percent of the time, because.
Speaker 1: I think that's fueling my misconceptions too, of like, how
Speaker 1: could this be helpful to me if I'm seeing it
Speaker 1: kind of used in what I see as bad ways
Speaker 1: for people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, therapy speak is the bane of my existence. I
Speaker 3: will often ask clients who come in and use a
Speaker 3: lot of words that I know are circulating online to
Speaker 3: reframe that thing using their own words, just because the
Speaker 3: definitions of some of these things have been so corrupted.
Speaker 3: And I also really resent the way that people malign
Speaker 3: therapy speak as indicative of the entire like therapy culture, Yeah,
Speaker 3: which seems to be a stand in for people to
Speaker 3: mean like, oh, we're too soft, and everyone's just validating
Speaker 3: themselves and separating themselves from other people. They're not taking
Speaker 3: accountability all of these things, which are very.
Speaker 4: Much not the case.
Speaker 1: What are some examples of therapy speeding. I've seen some
Speaker 1: of this stuff, but like haven't really dived into narcissism.
Speaker 1: Here's why trauma bonding Trauma bonding not.
Speaker 3: It does not mean what you think it means what.
Speaker 3: It does not mean that you talk with someone else
Speaker 3: about trauma, that you both experience trauma and you talk
Speaker 3: about it and now you're bonded. It is a tool
Speaker 3: of manipulation by which an abuser gives reward or punishment
Speaker 3: to a person that is the recipient of their abuse,
Speaker 3: the victim of their abuse, and in that way they
Speaker 3: create a bond that boundaries. That was the Jonah Hill thing.
Speaker 3: He said, you're crossing my boundaries by wearing a bikini.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, let's say Lily that one of our
Speaker 1: listeners was listening to this conversation and they were like,
Speaker 1: thank you Manny, Noah and Devin and Lily because now
Speaker 1: I want to try this. How does one even find
Speaker 1: a therapist?
Speaker 3: There are a few different ways. My favorite way is
Speaker 3: to go on a directory such as Psychology Today and
Speaker 3: search for someone who accepts your insurance if you're going
Speaker 3: through insurance, or just like type in, or you can
Speaker 3: like check the box of keywords like kind of issues
Speaker 3: that you're dealing with or hoping to work through, and
Speaker 3: a little hack. If you speak with a therapist during
Speaker 3: a consult and they don't have room or they don't
Speaker 3: take your insurance for whatever reason, but you think that
Speaker 3: they seem smart and cool, you can ask them to
Speaker 3: send you to refer you to someone else. So like
Speaker 3: using networks, I think is a really good way, because
Speaker 3: it is really hard. It's hard to find a good therapist.
Speaker 3: Like I said, it is like dating. You will have
Speaker 3: like a try and a fail. And I haven't even
Speaker 3: mentioned access, which is the biggest issue of all. If
Speaker 3: you need a sliding scale and you're not going through insurance.
Speaker 3: A lot of therapists do not take insurance. They're out
Speaker 3: of network for good reasons, but that obviously makes it
Speaker 3: a lot harder to pay for therapy. Open Path Collective
Speaker 3: is a good place to start. It's a directory of
Speaker 3: therapists who takes sliding scale down to like ten twenty
Speaker 3: dollars a session.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I.
Speaker 1: Need to look into this.
Speaker 2: Sorry to therapist.
Speaker 1: Are you on psychology today and are listeners allowed to
Speaker 1: contact you?
Speaker 3: I am a gie, Thanks for asking. Yes, Listeners listeners
Speaker 3: who are in the state of New York can hit
Speaker 3: me up.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll put your information in this show notes
Speaker 1: in case anyone in New York is interested in a consultation.
Speaker 1: But I have one more question. It's kind of stupid,
Speaker 1: so bear with me. But why aren't therapists allowed to
Speaker 1: therapize their friends or people that they know.
Speaker 3: I can't therapize you effectively because I'm in your life,
Speaker 3: you're in mind, we're friends. I have I have stakes
Speaker 3: and like I have an opinion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you ever out like at a bar and
Speaker 1: you're like stopping yourself from saying something you might say
Speaker 1: in a session.
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Interesting, Never, I'm so off duty. When I'm off I think. Okay,
Speaker 3: this is a good common misconception. People are like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're a therapist, are you? Are you analyzing me right now?
Speaker 4: I'm not.
Speaker 3: I'm drunk.
Speaker 5: Ki.
Speaker 1: No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Executive
Speaker 1: producers are Kate Osborne and mangesh Hati Cadur. The theme
Speaker 1: songs are produced by me Manny, and the episodes are
Speaker 1: mixed by Steve Bone.
Speaker 2: Thank you to our guest Lily Kaplan.
Speaker 1: You can find her psychology Today profile in the show notes,
Speaker 1: and you can be sure to subscribe to her newsletter,
Speaker 1: Reality Test. If you like what you're hearing, please be
Speaker 1: sure to give us five stars on wherever you're listening,
Speaker 1: and if you have any questions you want us to answer,
Speaker 1: please feel free to email us at Manny Noah Deevin
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: See you next time. Those those as
Speaker 1: Such things