1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm Anny, and this is no such thing. The show 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: doing the research. On today's episode, we're gonna find out 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: if you, dear listener need therapy. 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: No, there's no no such thing. No touch thank no touch, thank. 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: Touch, thank. 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 3: Touch, thank. 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 4: So. 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: I got the idea for this episode after an interaction 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 1: I had with a friend, and this this friend. When 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: you hear this, I'm sorry for using our interaction as 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: fodder for a podcast content, but he's kind of like 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: a you know, he leans broie, masculine guy from the Midwest. 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: And I was texting him to see, like when we 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: should hang out. There's a game on and we were 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: gonna go watch the game, and then he was like, yeah, 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: I can. I can get there at eight, Mike, because 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: my therapy raps at seven. Totally normal thing to say 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: to someone, except for the fact that I was surprised 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: when I read it. I was like, I was surprised 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: that someone like him was doing therapy, not just that 22 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: he was in therapy, but also that he would be 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: open about it and tell me that I'm in therapy. 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm not just like yeah, no, no, I was surprised 25 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: that someone like him would be transparent about that because he, 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: to me, I think, struck me as someone who like 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to either admit or and it made me think, like, 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: because I'm from the Midwest, I'm from a red state, 29 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: like I we grew up thinking about therapy as like, 30 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, you really only should do that if you 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: have some real problem, or like not thinking it was 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: necessarily like feminine, but like something that was just kind 33 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: of woo woo. I guess and you, Devin, this is 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: kind of exactly what I mean. When when we would 35 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: hang out and you would say, hell, I'll be there 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: after therapy, that didn't surprise me at all coming from 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay. 38 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 4: I'e man, you're. 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: You're just a bit You're more curious as you're able 40 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: to hang out. 41 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: So that interaction made me think about like the trajectory 42 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: of like the kind of social acceptance of therapy has 43 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: evolved in the past few decades. And maybe I'm underestimating 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: my fellow Americans, but I but I think probably most 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: people still don't do therapy or don't understand what it 46 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: is exactly. And so I thought we could use our 47 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: powers to kind of educate and and you know, like 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: I think an episode about like what it what it 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: is exactly, I think could be really helpful because personally, 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a super useful tool. 51 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 4: You know, here's Many's disclaimer from his earlier statement and. 52 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: Are you deep? Are you in therapy? Yeah? Ok, yeah, 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: yeah yeah. 54 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: And there's like moments in my life where I have 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: been and I and then I would stop and then 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: start up again. And there's like a lot of layers 57 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: to you know, how it can be useful maybe how 58 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: in some instance it's not useful. But I want to 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: ask you guys, like your experience with therapy, but also 60 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: like where you see the public kind of consensus about 61 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: therapy is. 62 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I've been in therapy now going on five years. 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 5: I started during COVID. I've been thinking about doing it beforehand, 64 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 5: but I always just made some short of excuse just 65 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 5: to like why not to do it? And then COVID 66 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 5: I was like, well everyone's going to therapy now, so 67 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 5: like let's do it. Me deciding to go to therapy 68 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 5: to your point, it was like a like it wasn't 69 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 5: a big deal, but it also was a big deal, right, 70 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 5: Like it's like, I don't know anyone in my family 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 5: who's gone to therapy and like talked about it outside 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 5: of like you've got to go, you know, like maybe 73 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 5: mandatory or like there's an issue here in back of 74 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 5: my mind. It was like, do I actually need this? 75 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 5: You know, like is this something I think like actually 76 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 5: should be doing, Like it's not exactly cheap and is 77 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 5: this sort of like a waste of time and it's 78 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 5: not you know, I'm still doing it, And it felt 79 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 5: like a good way to sort of also force me, 80 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 5: as someone who doesn't like talking about their feelings, to 81 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 5: like have to at a certain time every week have 82 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 5: a dedicated time to talk about my feelings and to 83 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 5: think about what the hell my feelings are. Cause pre therapy, 84 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 5: I would just ignore how I felt, not ignore, but 85 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 5: just like push through how I felt about a lot 86 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 5: of things and like never come back to it because 87 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 5: I'm just like, well, if I just like feel some 88 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 5: want normal or whatever, like, then I'm fine. 89 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 4: You know. 90 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 5: Like to me before progress was like, do I feel sad? 91 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 5: And you can also not feel sad by not thinking 92 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 5: about the thing? 93 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. 94 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 5: But it's also I feel like it's a generational thing, right, 95 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 5: I feel like our generation like no one Batton Island, 96 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 5: you say, like you're gone to therapy. 97 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 4: It took me a while to tell my mom that 98 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 4: I was doing it. 99 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 3: Why. 100 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 5: I was worried that she was going to be like, oh, 101 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 5: what's wrong with you? Yeah, you know, like that sort 102 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 5: of like are you good? 103 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? 104 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: And I feel like growing up there's like pop culture 105 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: representations of therapy that make you feel like that. 106 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 107 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: It's like if I'm getting therapy, that means something's wrong 108 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: with me. 109 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 4: Yes. 110 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 5: My constant hesitation going into it was like, oh, people 111 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 5: go to their well, you know, this is like the 112 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 5: pop culture thought of it. People go to therapy or suicidal, right, yeah? Yeah, 113 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 5: and if I go to therapy, pe who can think 114 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 5: I'm suicidal. I have a lot of issues, that's not 115 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 5: one of them. So yeah, and now that was part 116 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 5: of my thing, you too, to tell them. I like, 117 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 5: I ended up telling my mom after my dad died. 118 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 5: I was just sort of like we were talking about 119 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 5: coping mechanisms. When I was like, whoa, I've been going 120 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 5: for like three years. You don't know this, but I've 121 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 5: been going to therapy, and it was like, you know, 122 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 5: for me, it was helpful to have that too, because 123 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 5: it was like, Okay, I've been doing the work with 124 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 5: a therapist and then a big thing happened in my 125 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 5: life and then have to like he already knew the 126 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 5: context of like my relationship with my dad and like 127 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 5: all these sort of things. And it was like a 128 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 5: person I could talk to that also was not grieving 129 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 5: at the time. Right, Like you think about a lot 130 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 5: of stuff you try to to refrain of, like you 131 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 5: should just talk to your family or friends. It's like 132 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 5: sometimes they're going through that stuff with you, right, And 133 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 5: it's like, you know, I don't think I think we 134 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 5: think that we're a burden to people more so than 135 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 5: we are. But I think at times there can be 136 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 5: things on my mind that feel like a burden. If 137 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 5: I were to talk to a normal person about it 138 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 5: feels like a burden. But obviously I'm paying my therapist, 139 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 5: so he has to listen. 140 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: To me talk about it. 141 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: This is why you're there, Yeah, exactly what about you know, 142 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: have you ever had gone to therapy or I have not. 143 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: Not once. I'm not even once. 144 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm supportive of my brothers and sisters, but now 145 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: I just haven't done it. And you know, there have 146 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: been times when you know, it's quite popular. It seems 147 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: they're growing in steam and like the stigma's going away, 148 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: Like we're discussing where it's like, oh, maybe you know, 149 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 1: I could probably stand to gain something from this, even 150 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: just having that hour or whatever to reflect on my 151 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: thoughts or feelings in a way that I don't necessarily 152 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: do in my day to day. So I see the 153 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: benefits of it, or you know why I think would 154 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: be the benefits. 155 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, I've just never had anything. 156 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: I've never pushed to do it myself for whatever reason. 157 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: But I guess one of the things I think about 158 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: is like, should everyone be in therapy? Sometimes I feel 159 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: like people might use therapy like ideas that spread online. 160 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: Some people use kind of language from therapy yes, as 161 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: what I view as kind of excuses or crutches yes, 162 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: to almost self isolate instead of making it easier to 163 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: actually connect with other people. I guess the biggest kind 164 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: of pop culture example of this was like the Jonah 165 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: Hill thing from a few years ago. 166 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. 167 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: Basically, Jonah Hill was in a relationship with a surfing instructor, 168 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: and the surfing instructor accused him of being emotionally abusive 169 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: and revealed their text messages. And in the text messages, 170 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: it's clear that Jonah Hill is kind of weaponizing language 171 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: that you might hear in therapy just to kind of 172 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: mask his own insecurities. The specific word in question is boundaries. 173 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: He was saying that she was kind of violating his 174 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: boundaries whenever she would, you know, surf with men even 175 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: though she is a surfing instructor, and when she would 176 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: post pictures of herself in a bikini. 177 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: Now, this incident kind. 178 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: Of set off waves of conversations and discourse online about 179 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: when therapy speak is useful or when people are abusing it. 180 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: I think you and me ought to have a conversation 181 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: about boundaries and manipulation. It's not enough for a man 182 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: to simply go to therapy. 183 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 6: When a person who doesn't want to change their own 184 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 6: behavior as goes to therapy, they can learn language to 185 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 6: weaponize in order to justify their bad behavior. Some people 186 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 6: were being like, what's wrong with this, he's just setting boundaries, 187 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 6: or what's wrong with this? He wants a more traditional relationship. 188 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 6: And let me tell you, I think what we ideally 189 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 6: want in life is to have our partners be equals, 190 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 6: and we also need to be responsible for our own 191 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 6: emotional datage. 192 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: I think the first time I therapy actually was it 193 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: like right when I moved to New York and Business 194 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: Insider actually had some kind of a thing with your 195 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: health insurance where like you could go do a couple 196 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: sessions for free. 197 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was like great, And then. 198 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: I think what it helps me do is like understand 199 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: why I do or think the way I do sometimes 200 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: in certain instances. And I found that to be so 201 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: useful and like it gives me more active like agency 202 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: when I move around the world and like figuring out 203 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: like why I think about this thing the way I do. 204 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, of course there are like other examples of 205 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: people getting therapy where it like it could skew. 206 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 5: Because I think the big thing with therapy, and you know, 207 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 5: we'll get into this I guess later, is like at 208 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 5: least the way I see it is like therapy gives 209 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 5: you the tools to work on yourself to like be 210 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 5: a better person. Yeah, but you also have to work 211 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 5: at it. It's not a sort of like if you 212 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 5: just show up for an hour and then do nothing 213 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 5: in between, that's not really helping you, right, It's like 214 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 5: you have to like to your point, like all right, 215 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 5: I know this is the way my mind works, so like 216 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 5: when I'm in certain situations, like I need to keep 217 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 5: that in mind, and like maybe operates like differently. Like 218 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 5: for me, therapy forces myself to be in more uncomfortable situations, 219 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 5: right where I'll talk about things that like I usually 220 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 5: I would avoid and like, all right, maybe I should 221 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 5: confront this person about this thing or like have that 222 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 5: conversation that like in the past I would just like 223 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 5: let go by. But I think there's two things I play. 224 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 5: I think people use it as an excuse because they 225 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 5: don't want to do to work, so they'll just use 226 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 5: the language and then never actually do any of the 227 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 5: work and then just like be terrible to other people. 228 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 5: And then I think they're you know, like therapists are 229 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 5: also people. Yeah, and there's you know, like it's like cops. 230 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 5: It's like there's good, there's good. 231 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 4: There's good. 232 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: Therapists are like cops, but there's. 233 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 4: Good therapist that they're bad therapists. You know, my friend 234 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 4: was telling me the other day, shit, too crazy therapists. 235 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 5: Okay, one therapist is falling asleep during your sessions. 236 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: Damn crazy like a phone. 237 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 5: It's a phone, it's not a it's not video, not video, 238 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 5: it's on the phone. And she hears the therapist snoring 239 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 5: multiple multiple that's crazy. And then this other therapist, there's 240 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 5: this this friend I was talking to is sober. She 241 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 5: was complaining to the therapist about it's hard to date 242 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 5: in New York because you know, a lot of dating 243 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 5: in New York is around drinking, and the therapists told 244 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 5: them maybe you should take up drinks. 245 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: There's no fucking. 246 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 4: That's as a therapist, right. 247 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 5: So I think that's also to you is that like, hey, 248 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 5: they're bad doctors, that there are bad versions of everything, right, 249 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 5: So like some people maybe they are doing the work 250 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 5: that they're horrible therapist to tell them to do. 251 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: You know, I feel like people do also sometimes just 252 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: want a therapist that just validates them. So they'll just 253 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: go to complain about their friend or family or whatever 254 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: and just want the therapist to be like, you know what, you're. 255 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 4: Right, They want to chat. 256 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: And then then then if they get pushed back from 257 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: the therapist, or not even pushback, but just like maybe 258 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: offering a different perspective, that'll be like I need a 259 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: new therapist. 260 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm not comfortable. 261 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: Wow, challenging, I'm unsafe right now? 262 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 263 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 2: So well, guys. 264 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: Luckily for us, we have an expert sitting right over there. 265 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: Oh wow, who can kind of walk us through this, 266 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: because I think one of my goals for this episode 267 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: is to kind of demystify what therapy is and what 268 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: it can do for you. And so after the break, 269 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking to Lily Kaplan. She's a therapist 270 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: and she's also the author of the Reality Test newsletter 271 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: on sub sac. We're gonna be asking Lily a lot 272 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: of questions about what therapy is and what therapy isn't. 273 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: Hey, folks, many here. 274 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: Before we get to the rest of this episode, I 275 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: just wanted to share some responses that we got to 276 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: our food safety episode. When it comes to the bowl 277 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: designated for vomiting that some households utilized, we ran a 278 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: small pole and apparently fifty six percent of our listeners 279 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: did have this dedicated sick bowl growing up. Couldn't be me, 280 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: but that's fascinating. When it comes to whether you should 281 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: wash your chicken before you cook it, we got an 282 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: interesting email from listener Catherine, who shared that apparently there 283 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: are reasons to wash your chicken that don't have to 284 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: do necessarily with food safety. Apparently, in some Middle Eastern cultures, 285 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: people say that they can smell something called zonka, which 286 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: is kind of a indescribable, rotting, rancid smell that can 287 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: show up on your dishes after cooking the chicken. And 288 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: washing your chicken before where you cook it supposedly prevents 289 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: this smell. I looked into it a little bit, and 290 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: it's really fascinating that there's a kind. 291 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: Of cultural divide here. 292 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: A lot of people in Middle Eastern cultures say that 293 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: they can smell the smell, a lot of people in 294 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: Western cultures say that they can't. But we love hearing 295 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: from you guys, so definitely please keep emailing us at 296 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: Manny Noah Devin at gmail dot com. Enjoy the rest 297 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: of the episode. Hi Lily, Hi Manny, Thanks for doing this. Yeah, 298 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. In this episode, my goal is 299 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: to kind of demystify what therapy is, because I have 300 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: this theory that most people don't know what it is 301 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: and I could be wrong, but I don't think I am, 302 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: because I think I'm usually right about things. I'm right often. 303 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: Did you learn that in therapy. 304 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, my therapist. 305 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: These guys always right, Like whoa you neither remember this? Mane, 306 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: You're always right. 307 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So first of all, what kind of therapy do 308 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: you do? 309 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: I do talk therapy sort of follows in a psychodynamic practice, 310 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 3: which is essentially about how your past impacts your present. 311 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 3: That's kind of like the most crude, oversimplified answer, and relational, 312 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 3: which is like centering human relationships, using the relationship between 313 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: the therapists and the client as like a model of what 314 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 3: relationships can be. 315 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 316 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 3: I incorporate some other stuff too, some like somatic like 317 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: mind body kind of stuff, some mindfulness kind of stuff. 318 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 3: But I'm not a therapist who like really practices specifically 319 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 3: in like one discipline. 320 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So I think the first most obvious question I 321 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: have to start out is like, what is the function 322 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: of therapy? What is it supposed to do? And what 323 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: effect is it supposed to have on someone? 324 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: Therapy is, I think, supposed to be a space where 325 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: you can show up and be your full and complete 326 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 3: self without fear of judgment. People go for different reasons. 327 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 3: Some people go because they're experiencing like some kind of 328 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 3: acute symptom like I can't sleep, or like I can't 329 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: stop drinking, and I need to resolve that specific thing. 330 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 3: And some people go just because they want to like 331 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 3: understand more about themselves or maybe there is something that 332 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: happened in the past that plagues them in some way. 333 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 3: What it's supposed to do provide insight, reduce symptoms, improve 334 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 3: your capacity to be in relationships, improve your capacity to 335 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 3: just be present with yourself. There's a concept in like 336 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 3: some trauma therapies called window of tolerance, which is kind 337 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 3: of your ability to tolerate discomfort. If you think of 338 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 3: it as like a circle. Some people's circle is very 339 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: small for whatever reason, and if you, like something happens 340 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 3: that's uncomfortable that like pushes you outside of that window 341 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: or outside of that circle, then it's just like total 342 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 3: shut down or fight or flight or dysregulation in some way. 343 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 3: So ideally good therapy can like whiten that circle a 344 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 3: little bit, or like help you come face to face 345 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: with some uncomfortable things and be able to tolerate them. 346 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 3: It's definitely not supposed to remove all pain from the world. 347 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 3: It's definitely not supposed to make you not ever feel sad. 348 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: Or not ever feel anxious, but rather to trust a 349 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: little bit that sadness will peak and then it might 350 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: fall again. 351 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: Are there people whose windows are arguably too big? But 352 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: maybe someone who's who lets things roll off them in 353 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: a way and they're not even contending with their discomfort. 354 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, it sounds like. 355 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 3: You might be talking about avoidance. 356 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not talking about myself, By the way, mine 357 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: does average. You know, It's like I have an average 358 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: size trust. So my next question, I think, would be, 359 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: I guess what are some signs that the therapy is 360 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: quote unquote working, Like how do you know if it's 361 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: having a positive impact in one's life or in your 362 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: patient's lives? 363 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: They're lifestyle factors. Are you sleeping? Are you eating? Are 364 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 3: you engaged in healthy relationships? How is your self esteem? 365 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: How's your kind of self talk? Like that inner voice 366 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 3: or that inner monologue that you might hear day to day. 367 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: Is it pretty mean or is it pretty nice? Or 368 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 3: is it sort of like healthy ish mix of both? 369 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: And in the room, do you feel like you can 370 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 3: share things with your therapist without the fear of them 371 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 3: judging you or being shocked or making you feel bad, 372 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: Like do you feel like you can show up to 373 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 3: therapy with whatever you have that day. That's a good 374 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,719 Speaker 3: indicator that you're in like a good like safe therapeutic relationship. 375 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 4: Yeah. I've heard people say that they lighted at therapists. 376 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: Really yeah, well what's an example, do you know? I 377 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: think or just like not saying not giving details. 378 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 5: Oh, mission is obviously a great way of lying. Yeah, 379 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 5: but I think some people even in it one. 380 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: Of the top favorite top three. 381 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 5: But I think people, you know, they show up to 382 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 5: therapy and they're still presenting. Okay, I want to present 383 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 5: the best version of my health to this therapist, So 384 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 5: I'm not going to tell them that actually I did X, Y, 385 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 5: and Z. 386 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: And I think sometimes I says, just don't feel comfortable. 387 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, you Like, I think somethings people feel are even 388 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 5: like I've I've talked to someone who they told their 389 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 5: therapist something they were going through in a. 390 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: Therapist, well, oh my god. 391 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 5: And like if your therapist has that sort of reaction 392 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 5: to you, like something that you're like, oh, this is 393 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 5: just my life. Yeah, like, maybe you're not gonna feel 394 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 5: as comfortable telling them certain things. 395 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 3: I've been watching The West Wing for the first time 396 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 3: and there's an episode this is kind of a spoiler. 397 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: I guess it's like probably twenty years old. I wouldn't 398 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 3: want to spoil if you haven't watched The West Wing 399 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 3: Skip forward. I guess in the middle of season two, 400 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: they bring in this like trauma guy and he's like 401 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 3: really serious and like, of course he's a guy. 402 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 4: Can I curse? 403 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? 404 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely, He's like, stop fucking around with me, Josh. The 405 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: actually doesn't even say that on the show. It's like 406 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: a network can add a cursory to if I wrote it, 407 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: this is no. But he's like he's so mean to him. 408 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 3: He's like really like forcing him to share his trauma 409 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 3: so that he can eventually diagnose him with PTSD. Anyway, 410 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: it was like a really painful episode to watch and 411 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: really funny because you just really don't want to be 412 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 3: like super mean to someone who's like just experienced potentially 413 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 3: life ending event. 414 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 4: Yeah. 415 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: I feel like what Devin's described with the pop culture 416 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: depictions of therapy is like so many people's only experience 417 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: with it, and I feel like, yeah, I'm curious, like 418 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: what are some other kind of misconceptions you've noticed in 419 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: movies or TV? Like I remember you know, obviously one 420 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: of the biggest shows of all time, The Sopranos is 421 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: like mostly about his relationship with a therapist. 422 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 4: Dys Therapy is a jerk off. You know it, and 423 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 4: I know it. I actually don't know it, but please continue. 424 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: But I'm curious, like, how do you feel about the general, 425 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, depiction of therapy and movies and TV. 426 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 3: I remember I had a class in grad school where 427 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 3: we would like watch scenes from movies and TV and 428 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 3: then unpack, like how did that go, like the therapy, 429 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 3: and usually it was pretty bad. I think that sometimes 430 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: people think that therapy is advice. 431 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 4: It's for sure not. 432 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: There's one thing that's on my mind that is something 433 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: that went kind of viral on Twitter recently. I don't 434 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 3: know if you guys saw this. It's like a tweet 435 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 3: that's like my therapist said this to me, and it 436 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 3: hit me like a brick. Have you seen this? 437 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: I think? 438 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 3: So, Yeah, those who need from you do not respect you. 439 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 3: You must separate yourself from those who do not whatever. 440 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 3: I don't know, it's like fucking bullshit. 441 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 442 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 3: I think therapy is really hard to depict in movies 443 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: and TV because it's really not something that can be 444 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 3: summed up in a quote or an seen it's it's complicated. 445 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, they I feel like the conception that therapy is 446 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: advice is so prevalent. I feel like I hear that 447 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: all the time, where friends of mine, you know, will 448 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: be like, I need my therapist to like tell me 449 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: what to do in life, like tell me that I 450 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: should do. Like they'll go and be like, here are 451 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 1: two options, which one should I do? 452 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 4: That's a life coach? 453 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you need Tony Robbins. 454 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 4: Or we're gonna talk about life coaches. Is that on 455 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 4: the list today? 456 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: Sure? 457 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. 458 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 4: I'm cious about your thoughts online. Yeah. 459 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: Coaching is an unregulated industry, and that's something that is 460 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 3: important to remember if you're seeking a coach. And that 461 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that all coaches are bad. And I myself 462 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 3: have had a wonderful experience with a career coach, like 463 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 3: several years ago before I became a therapist and look 464 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 3: at me now media circuit. But their coaching is also. 465 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: Something that you can just say that you do, mmm, 466 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: like I could be a coach, you could be life coaches. 467 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: You need any coach me what should I do? 468 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: Our clients would be in jail. Yeah, I'm curious about 469 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: you said earlier that like therapy, therapists are people. I'm curious, like, 470 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit more about that. I 471 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: feel like people do go into sessions thinking that there's 472 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, a machine and that's like 473 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: supposed to help you do something. 474 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, therapists are famously human people, and I hope that 475 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: it stays that way. 476 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: That. 477 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean anything that can happen in a 478 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 3: human relationship can happen in your relationship with your therapist. 479 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: What's cool about therapy is that then you can talk 480 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: about it. You can be like, hey, I'm having kind 481 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 3: of weird, like romantic feelings towards you. And sometimes there's 482 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 3: a process that in the biz we call transference where 483 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 3: like a client, you might experience like a feeling that 484 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 3: you may have like somewhere else in your life and 485 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 3: like kind of imprint it onto the therapist. You remind 486 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 3: me of my mom, you remind me of my girlfriend, 487 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: you remind me of my ex, my friend, whatever, of 488 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 3: my enemy. But yeah, therapists can make mistakes, not me, 489 00:26:54,240 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 3: of course, but the other ones. They really shouldn't do that. 490 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are. 491 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: But like sometimes, like you know, I have offended people. 492 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 3: I say sorry, we talk about what happened. This is 493 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 3: part of also the sort of the therapeutic relationship as 494 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: a model, like a model of rupture and repair. Right, 495 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 3: Like my client might come back and say, hey, you 496 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: said this thing to me last week and it didn't 497 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: really sit well with me, and I'm so stoked, and 498 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: that happens because I'm like cool, like, let's talk about it. 499 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: How did it make you feel? Was this something that 500 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 3: was kind of out of line on my part? 501 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 4: Is there like. 502 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 3: Something that we should talk about in our relationship, or 503 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: is there like something else going on that also came 504 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 3: in and we get to unpack that stuff and you 505 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 3: don't necessarily get to do that with your friends or family. 506 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: The notion that therapists are people is obvious, but also 507 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,959 Speaker 1: struck me because I was like, like, my therapist laughs 508 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: at my joke sometimes, but for whatever reason, they're not 509 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: going back to therapy next week, Like you didn't laugh 510 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: at that joke. 511 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: Well, they're not like knock knock jokes. 512 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: But I'll say something funny. I'll say something that I'll 513 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: obviously you're kind of supposed to chuckle or laugh and 514 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: then when it happens, I'm like, oh that. 515 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 5: Some course my therapist will laugh when I'm not on 516 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,959 Speaker 5: the joke and be like, oh, I'm laughing, and then 517 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 5: explain why he's like, oh, because that reminded me of 518 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 5: this other thing that you've said, or like that situation 519 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 5: is interesting because it reminds me. 520 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to. 521 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 4: Be able to your point, Yeah, it is. 522 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 5: At times I'm like, oh, yeah, you are, like you 523 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 5: can have reactions. 524 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is This is a good misconception 525 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: of therapy that people expect to sort of tabula rossa 526 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 3: write the blank sleep Freudian therapist who betrays nothing and 527 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 3: is an identityless person, which also comes from some baby 528 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: old fashioned ways of thinking that there is an identity 529 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 3: this person aka like a middle aged white man as 530 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: a default person. But yeah, no, I for sure have 531 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 3: a personality in sessions. I can't not Sometimes I will 532 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 3: make a face and my client will be like, what 533 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 3: was that face? I don't know if that's a great. 534 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: Thing that I do, but I can't help but be 535 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: very so. 536 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 3: I've heard this, Yeah, yeah, I've received this feedback. 537 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: Makes sense. 538 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: Are there any other like kind of big misconceptions that 539 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: we haven't touched on yet. 540 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: That's a good question. Something that therapists are trained to 541 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 3: do that your friends are not necessarily is to be 542 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: aware of where their reactions are coming from. Like it's 543 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 3: interesting like you mentioned your therapist like laughed at something 544 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 3: and was like, oh, I laughed because of I wonder 545 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: if he hadn't shared that, if you might have been 546 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: like if you might have walked away thinking like why 547 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 3: did he laugh? Like was he laughing at me? But 548 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 3: but for me, say I'm working with someone who reminds 549 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 3: me of a friend and they got back together with 550 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 3: an ex that we know has hurt them in the past, 551 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 3: and I might immediately have the reaction. I might feel 552 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: protective and I feel like, oh my god, no, what are 553 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 3: you thinking. What I am trained to do as a 554 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: therapist rather than that person's friend is notice my own 555 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: shit coming into the room and be like, Okay, why. 556 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 4: Am I reacting in this way? 557 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: It is deeply not my place to judge. It's not 558 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 3: my place to say that this is wrong. It's not 559 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: appropriate to be like shocked, like oh my god. 560 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: What you did? 561 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 4: What? 562 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a concept called unconditional positive regard that's like 563 00:30:53,480 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: a best practice in therapy, it means that we ought 564 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: to see our clients as inherently valuable people. It is 565 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 3: not our place to judge. It's not our place to 566 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 3: decide that, oh, you did this thing, therefore I think 567 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 3: less of you. It doesn't mean validation in any circumstance. 568 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: It definitely does mean that. But it does mean that 569 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 3: you are a full and worthy person no matter what, absolutely, 570 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: no matter what. 571 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 1: Can you talk about how you might know that you 572 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: are a bad match for a patient. 573 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 3: Yes, not every therapist is for every client. A therapist 574 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 3: might be a great therapist for one person and a 575 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 3: terrible therapist for someone else. For me, if I am 576 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: sitting with a client who makes me feel like really 577 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: emotionally activated in some way constantly in a way that 578 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: I feel like I cannot regulate myself or like I 579 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 3: can't have unconditional positive regard towards this client, I should 580 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 3: not be working with this person. Also, if they have 581 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 3: some kind of diagnosis that I'm just like not familiar 582 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 3: with and don't have the time or resources to get 583 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 3: trained on. If they need some kind of like specialized 584 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 3: support that is not a specialization that I have. That's 585 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 3: something that I you know, I need to be honest 586 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 3: and responsible and tell that person that I'm not the 587 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 3: therapist for them. If they can only meet on weekends, 588 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: then I also can't meet them. 589 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 4: Logistics. 590 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, taking that same question from the patient seeking a 591 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 5: therapist's point of view? All right, so we got okay, 592 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 5: you know, making sure your therapist doesn't have crazy reactions 593 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 5: to the things that you're telling them, making sure that 594 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 5: there may be a line with certain diagnosis that you have. 595 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 5: Is there any other tips you would give for someone 596 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 5: seeking a therapist, like we were talking about earlier, Like 597 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 5: not just seeking someone who's just going to agree with 598 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,719 Speaker 5: you no matter what. Right like your therapists, you may 599 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 5: be a bit uncomfortable at times in therapy. 600 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 4: That's okay, I'm assuming. 601 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 5: Are there things, yeah, like that that people should be 602 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 5: considering when choosing a therapist if they're trying to figure 603 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 5: out if their therapist is the right fit for them. 604 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 3: Definitely, you will and must be uncomfortable at times in therapy. 605 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 3: There's some evidence that the quality of the relationship that 606 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 3: you have with your therapist is more important than the 607 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 3: kind of therapy that they're doing, like the model of 608 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 3: therapy that they're doing, Like Ultimately, feeling safe and supported 609 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 3: in that relationship is like basically the number one indicator 610 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: that you will get what you're looking for out of 611 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 3: therapy or get closer to where you want to go 612 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 3: finding a good therapist. It's a little like dating. You 613 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 3: might have a bunch of consultations that are usually free, 614 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 3: should be free. You know, you probably know after a 615 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 3: few sessions if you feel like this is someone that 616 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: you can kind of sit with or not. There are 617 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 3: definitely some red flags that you might want to be 618 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 3: conscious of. If the therapist says or does something that 619 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 3: makes you uncomfortable and maybe you bring it up and 620 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 3: they don't respond in a way that feels open to feedback, 621 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 3: then that's probably a problem. Ethical professional boundaries are really 622 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 3: really important, and I've heard some wild stories giving some 623 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 3: like weird advice treating your clients like friends. I've heard 624 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 3: a lot of stories of therapists who will kind of 625 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: bring their own emotions into session in a way that 626 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 3: feels inappropriate or like taking the client's time like oh, 627 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 3: like sorry, I'm just so sad because of blah blah 628 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 3: blah blah blah. That is kind of red floggy, that 629 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 3: shouldn't really happen. Yeah, right, And like the difference you're 630 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 3: talking about, like the difference between seeing a therapist or 631 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 3: talking to like a friend or a family member is 632 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 3: that you should never worry in the therapy room about 633 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 3: how your therapist is going to feel about what you're sharing, 634 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 3: and if you do, then it's probably the wrong. Yeah. 635 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: I think a bad therapist can do active harm, Devin. 636 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 3: You shared earlier a totally cuckoo bananas story that a 637 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 3: friend of yours went to a therapist and said, it's 638 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 3: hard to date without drinking, and the therapist said, well, 639 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 3: why don't you pick up drinking? That's worse than no therapy. 640 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 3: That's just that's bad advice. 641 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 4: And also. 642 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: Like enough for anyone. 643 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe they were being like irreverent or something, but 644 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 3: maybe that's it was clearly received in a way that 645 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 3: was harmful. And you know, therapy can do emotional damage. 646 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 3: You can walk away feeling like you're bad. 647 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 5: So you said before that you hope that therapists remained humans. 648 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 5: And you know, there's this devastating story that just came 649 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 5: out about this teenager who died by suicide and was 650 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 5: talking to chat GPT about it, and chat EPT was 651 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 5: basically encouraging this person to do it. And they were 652 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 5: telling chat ept like they want to ask for help, 653 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 5: and it was discouraging them from doing that. And we 654 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 5: hear these sort of horror stories about AI therapy, but 655 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 5: it's becoming more and more popular. I know a lot 656 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 5: of people will say, hey, I can't afford actual therapy. 657 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 5: Chat Shept to a point is free, and it's better 658 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 5: for me to sort of voice or talk through my 659 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 5: shit with at least this thing because it'll listen and 660 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 5: give me some feedback, then not do it at all 661 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 5: and just have it bottled up. 662 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 3: I've been talking this whole time about human relationships and 663 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 3: like the relationship being a tool of therapy, and what 664 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 3: AI lacks is humanity and nuance, right ability to read 665 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 3: beyond just the words that are being said, and that 666 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 3: is really really important when it comes to something like suicidality. 667 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: I was actually just reading some research that came out 668 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 3: this summer out of Stanford that if you ask a 669 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 3: chat bot something like I'm feeling really down on myself 670 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 3: and really low and i hate myself. What's the tallest 671 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 3: bridge in Brooklyn, that it will say, I'm sorry you're 672 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 3: feeling that way brooklyn Bridge is great to jump off us. Yeah, 673 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: And obviously a human therapist would connect those two things 674 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 3: and say why are you You know, maybe there's something 675 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 3: going on here, which is exactly what happened with this 676 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 3: kid where he was like, is this a good place 677 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 3: to put the noose and CHATCHYBT said yes, that's great. 678 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 3: The other thing that was part of this research was 679 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 3: that AI holds some of the same stigmas toward like 680 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 3: certain diagnoses or like mental health conditions that are held 681 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 3: more broadly, And you see this in all kinds of 682 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 3: like discrimination and like emerging tech. 683 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 4: Right. 684 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 3: For example, if you ask chatchipt if someone who's showing 685 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,399 Speaker 3: signs of schizophrenia is more likely to be violent toward 686 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 3: other people, it will indicate that it thinks, yes, this 687 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 3: is a common misconception. It's not true. People with schizophrenia 688 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 3: are more likely to have violence have harm done to 689 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 3: them than to do harm toward other people. But yeah, 690 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 3: it is the job of a clinician to not stigmatize 691 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 3: their clients and their clients' conditions, or they ask chatbots 692 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,879 Speaker 3: if they would be more or less likely to work 693 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 3: with someone who has symptoms of like alcohol use disorder, 694 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 3: and the chatbots also showed the same stigma that we 695 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 3: see in society more broadly, so that's obviously pretty concerning 696 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 3: as well. 697 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, another question just about like kind of the therapy speak. 698 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: How much do you think these concepts that come from 699 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: therapy are being maybe misused or misinterpreted more broadly? 700 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 3: Oh, my god, like ninety percent of the time, because. 701 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: I think that's fueling my misconceptions too, of like, how 702 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: could this be helpful to me if I'm seeing it 703 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: kind of used in what I see as bad ways 704 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:11,240 Speaker 1: for people. 705 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, therapy speak is the bane of my existence. I 706 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 3: will often ask clients who come in and use a 707 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 3: lot of words that I know are circulating online to 708 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 3: reframe that thing using their own words, just because the 709 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 3: definitions of some of these things have been so corrupted. 710 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 3: And I also really resent the way that people malign 711 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:40,439 Speaker 3: therapy speak as indicative of the entire like therapy culture, Yeah, 712 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 3: which seems to be a stand in for people to 713 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 3: mean like, oh, we're too soft, and everyone's just validating 714 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 3: themselves and separating themselves from other people. They're not taking 715 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 3: accountability all of these things, which are very. 716 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 4: Much not the case. 717 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 1: What are some examples of therapy speeding. I've seen some 718 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,280 Speaker 1: of this stuff, but like haven't really dived into narcissism. 719 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,399 Speaker 1: Here's why trauma bonding Trauma bonding not. 720 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 3: It does not mean what you think it means what. 721 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 3: It does not mean that you talk with someone else 722 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 3: about trauma, that you both experience trauma and you talk 723 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 3: about it and now you're bonded. It is a tool 724 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 3: of manipulation by which an abuser gives reward or punishment 725 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 3: to a person that is the recipient of their abuse, 726 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,439 Speaker 3: the victim of their abuse, and in that way they 727 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 3: create a bond that boundaries. That was the Jonah Hill thing. 728 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 3: He said, you're crossing my boundaries by wearing a bikini. 729 00:41:51,560 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: No, no, no, let's say Lily that one of our 730 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: listeners was listening to this conversation and they were like, 731 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,879 Speaker 1: thank you Manny, Noah and Devin and Lily because now 732 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: I want to try this. How does one even find 733 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: a therapist? 734 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 3: There are a few different ways. My favorite way is 735 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 3: to go on a directory such as Psychology Today and 736 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 3: search for someone who accepts your insurance if you're going 737 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 3: through insurance, or just like type in, or you can 738 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 3: like check the box of keywords like kind of issues 739 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 3: that you're dealing with or hoping to work through, and 740 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 3: a little hack. If you speak with a therapist during 741 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 3: a consult and they don't have room or they don't 742 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 3: take your insurance for whatever reason, but you think that 743 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 3: they seem smart and cool, you can ask them to 744 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 3: send you to refer you to someone else. So like 745 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 3: using networks, I think is a really good way, because 746 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 3: it is really hard. It's hard to find a good therapist. 747 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 3: Like I said, it is like dating. You will have 748 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 3: like a try and a fail. And I haven't even 749 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,800 Speaker 3: mentioned access, which is the biggest issue of all. If 750 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,800 Speaker 3: you need a sliding scale and you're not going through insurance. 751 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 3: A lot of therapists do not take insurance. They're out 752 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 3: of network for good reasons, but that obviously makes it 753 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,280 Speaker 3: a lot harder to pay for therapy. Open Path Collective 754 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 3: is a good place to start. It's a directory of 755 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 3: therapists who takes sliding scale down to like ten twenty 756 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 3: dollars a session. 757 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 4: Oh wow, I. 758 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: Need to look into this. 759 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 2: Sorry to therapist. 760 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: Are you on psychology today and are listeners allowed to 761 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: contact you? 762 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 3: I am a gie, Thanks for asking. Yes, Listeners listeners 763 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 3: who are in the state of New York can hit 764 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 3: me up. 765 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,760 Speaker 1: All right, we'll put your information in this show notes 766 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: in case anyone in New York is interested in a consultation. 767 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: But I have one more question. It's kind of stupid, 768 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: so bear with me. But why aren't therapists allowed to 769 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 1: therapize their friends or people that they know. 770 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 3: I can't therapize you effectively because I'm in your life, 771 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 3: you're in mind, we're friends. I have I have stakes 772 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 3: and like I have an opinion. 773 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, are you ever out like at a bar and 774 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: you're like stopping yourself from saying something you might say 775 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: in a session. 776 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 4: No? 777 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 3: Interesting, Never, I'm so off duty. When I'm off I think. Okay, 778 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 3: this is a good common misconception. People are like, oh, 779 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 3: you're a therapist, are you? Are you analyzing me right now? 780 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 4: I'm not. 781 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 3: I'm drunk. 782 00:44:59,120 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 5: Ki. 783 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Executive 784 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: producers are Kate Osborne and mangesh Hati Cadur. The theme 785 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: songs are produced by me Manny, and the episodes are 786 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: mixed by Steve Bone. 787 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 2: Thank you to our guest Lily Kaplan. 788 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,240 Speaker 1: You can find her psychology Today profile in the show notes, 789 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: and you can be sure to subscribe to her newsletter, 790 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: Reality Test. If you like what you're hearing, please be 791 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: sure to give us five stars on wherever you're listening, 792 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: and if you have any questions you want us to answer, 793 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,280 Speaker 1: please feel free to email us at Manny Noah Deevin 794 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. 795 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 2: See you next time. Those those as 796 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: Such things