Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is name. Our colleague Ben is on an adventure.
Speaker 2: But you are you. You are here, and that makes
Speaker 2: this stuff they don't want you to know. We're also
Speaker 2: joined by our super producer Andrew. We're recalling him now,
Speaker 2: Frank Train, Try Force Howard, and we are bringing new
Speaker 2: energy to this episode because we are joined by someone very,
Speaker 2: very special, someone we've been wanting to talk to for
Speaker 2: quite a while, ever since we had a conversation with
Speaker 2: Jason Flamm on this show. You might recognize her when
Speaker 2: when you hear it for the first time from her
Speaker 2: work as host and producer of Wrongful Conviction alongside Jason.
Speaker 2: You might know her voice from the Pulitzer Prize winning
Speaker 2: podcast Suave that we just saw Maria from Suave at
Speaker 2: on AirFest very recently. You might also know her from
Speaker 2: her work as an intern at the US Fish and
Speaker 2: Wildlife Service.
Speaker 3: That's mainly where my background is.
Speaker 4: That's a deep cut.
Speaker 2: I know, hey, hey, hold on, hold on, you may,
Speaker 2: but primarily you might know her from Up and Vanished Weekly,
Speaker 2: the new true crime show that's a spin off of
Speaker 2: Up and Vanished from Tenderfoot TV.
Speaker 5: Welcome, Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 4: Oh man, that was a lot to like keep keep
Speaker 4: myself from yelling during But the deep cut fish and
Speaker 4: wildlife is wild.
Speaker 3: It's important, well, especially in these are trying times where
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff's getting wet, like eliminated entirely potentially. Oof.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why you're here, Maggie. Let's talk f so
Speaker 2: and or wildlife.
Speaker 3: Start with wildlife favorite animal?
Speaker 4: Go, Oh my gosh, yeah, the fish and wildlife. I did.
Speaker 4: I did. I wanted to go into conservation or like
Speaker 4: conservation reporting something like that for a really long time.
Speaker 4: And that's a really dark place to be in right now.
Speaker 4: So I'm glad I didn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wasn't choking though. That wasn't just a clever segue.
Speaker 3: What is your favorite animal?
Speaker 4: What is my favorite animal? Oh my gosh, I mean
Speaker 4: any kind of like cat.
Speaker 3: Okay, there we go, any fuel adjacent that's cool.
Speaker 5: All we're all big cat fans.
Speaker 2: We're just hanging out with Astrid here, that's Andrew's Katy Cat.
Speaker 2: We've got a bunch of them running around. Look, we're
Speaker 2: here to talk about up in Vanish Weekly because this
Speaker 2: brand new show hits the listener. That's us, that's me
Speaker 2: in particular, with a new either missing person's case, a
Speaker 2: suspected homicide case, a case of historical importance when it
Speaker 2: comes to that kind of thing, there are so many
Speaker 2: to chew from when we were preparing to talk to
Speaker 2: you today, Maggie abduction maybe in there. We've got a
Speaker 2: short list of things we're going to talk about, but
Speaker 2: just for everybody who's listening, before we fully get into
Speaker 2: the show, we're also going to be talking about a
Speaker 2: specific hair industry out of India that I learned about
Speaker 2: when talking with Maggie a little while ago. And that
Speaker 2: is a deep rabbit hole. That is probably a whole
Speaker 2: other episode that we might have to bring you back
Speaker 2: on for.
Speaker 5: Yes, but there's so many things we're going to talk
Speaker 5: about today.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after word from our sponsor with
Speaker 2: Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 3: And we have returned with Maggie and we're gonna jump
Speaker 3: right in to a pretty important case that I think
Speaker 3: is a really good kind of conduit between up and
Speaker 3: vanished weekly and stuff they don't want you to know,
Speaker 3: which is the mysterious disappearance of Travis Walton in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy five. Travis vanished for five days in the fall
Speaker 3: of that year and returned with some very interesting and
Speaker 3: conspiracy adjacent claims. Maggie, what do you say we jump
Speaker 3: right into that story and what these claims were? What
Speaker 3: you think happened?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I guess have you guys covered this case?
Speaker 2: I forgot We have talked about Travis Walton when it
Speaker 2: comes to abduction stories, right, so like kind of a
Speaker 2: bit of an overview and we're talking years ago.
Speaker 3: Not a deep talk though, for sure.
Speaker 2: No, not at all. We have spoken with pain about
Speaker 2: high Strange and this is one little thing that we
Speaker 2: mentioned in that interview, but we've never actually looked at
Speaker 2: the facts.
Speaker 4: Wow. Okay, so your listeners are going to love this
Speaker 4: because this is one of those abduction cases that has
Speaker 4: a lot of credibility to it because is it five
Speaker 4: or six other people he was with actually saw him
Speaker 4: hi allegedly be abducted. They saw it. This is what
Speaker 4: they also say happened. And I find it so interesting
Speaker 4: because these guys, Okay, so they're all friends, they're loggers,
Speaker 4: they're in the woods together, and they literally see Travis
Speaker 4: be abducted. So he goes missing and these guys come
Speaker 4: back without their friend and they're instantly murder suspects. They
Speaker 4: think they the police think they did something with him.
Speaker 4: When they're trying to report him missing, they take polygraph tests.
Speaker 4: I mean, these guys are suspects. They're about to go
Speaker 4: to jail and be arrested for doing something to their friend.
Speaker 4: And then he shows up five days later, I think
Speaker 4: was it five days let me say, and yeah, five
Speaker 4: days later and he's like, no, no, I was abducted.
Speaker 4: And they're all like, see, see, we told you. And
Speaker 4: even you know, watching documentaries and listening back to the
Speaker 4: police and people who gave the polygraphs, they're like, it
Speaker 4: is very difficult and I know this too, for six
Speaker 4: people to tell the same story time and time again.
Speaker 4: And that's what happens here. I mean, you know, Travis
Speaker 4: tells what happened once he was on the ship, and
Speaker 4: we could talk about that, but in terms of credibility,
Speaker 4: I mean, that's it. You have six people telling the
Speaker 4: same story. These guys were gonna go to jail. And
Speaker 4: they're not saying like this is a joke or whatever.
Speaker 3: They're like, no, seriously, if you're kinda come up with
Speaker 3: a cover story for murdering your friend, there are better ones.
Speaker 3: Then we saw him get pulled up by a tractor
Speaker 3: beam into the sky, or well, can you maybe tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit about what they reported seeing, like,
Speaker 3: you know, more than beyond just our friend was abducted.
Speaker 3: There has to be some detail around that.
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: So they're all in the woods, like we said, they're
Speaker 4: loggers nineteen seventy five, and they all of a sudden, see,
Speaker 4: they hear a noise and they see in a clearing
Speaker 4: like a hovering craft. So Travis decides to walk towards
Speaker 4: it and it kind of investigate what's happening, and really,
Speaker 4: the next thing they know, they see him fly backwards
Speaker 4: like he's you know, struck by a beam of light,
Speaker 4: flies backwards and they run. When they return, he's gone.
Speaker 3: Like you do not.
Speaker 4: Maybe not walking towards as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And okay, so they're all aligned on this,
Speaker 3: and they.
Speaker 4: Are one hundred person aligned. I mean they all see
Speaker 4: the same thing, or say they see the same thing.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about how rare that is when it comes
Speaker 2: to the cases you've looked at, not only for Up
Speaker 2: and Vanish Weekly, but for some of the wrongful conviction
Speaker 2: specific cases that you've looked at. Where are where there
Speaker 2: are that number of individuals who are credible witnesses, who
Speaker 2: are eyes on. They're not just people who are around,
Speaker 2: you know, saw a little part of something that happened.
Speaker 2: They all saw the same thing and they're reporting this.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about was listening to other episodes like Jennifer
Speaker 2: Kesse's disappearance, which is one of the first episodes you
Speaker 2: guys cover, where one of the best pieces of evidence
Speaker 2: in that case that you've got is a piece of
Speaker 2: actual video tape, but you can't actually make the person out.
Speaker 2: And there's been no nothing has happened with that case
Speaker 2: because you can't make the person out. But in this case,
Speaker 2: you've got folks saying something, well, what do you do?
Speaker 5: Can you go?
Speaker 2: I don't know what do you do with a UFO? Like,
Speaker 2: what is there anything? I just don't get it.
Speaker 4: Well that's so okay. So there's two things there. So
Speaker 4: you asked about people telling the same story, So you know,
Speaker 4: when you tell a lie, it is hard to remember
Speaker 4: that lie because it is not a memory that you have.
Speaker 4: So then the lie changes, right, That's when people's stories change.
Speaker 4: They can't remember what they said, so they start changing.
Speaker 4: These guys, all of them are telling the same story
Speaker 4: separation time and time, separately and separate polygraphs. They all
Speaker 4: passed the polygraphs. You know, we all know, you guys
Speaker 4: talk about it. Polygraphs can't be admitted in court. They're
Speaker 4: not particularly fallible. But six guys telling the same story,
Speaker 4: all passing a polygraph can indicate something, you know. So
Speaker 4: that is something that is really interesting to me about
Speaker 4: this and Travis telling the same detailed story. You can
Speaker 4: listen to it on High Strange Pain talks to Travis
Speaker 4: Walton and he has vivid memories of being inside a spaceship.
Speaker 5: Oh god, well.
Speaker 3: Off, Mike. Before we started rolling, I mentioned that we
Speaker 3: had to talk about this one if for only the
Speaker 3: opportunity to discuss the nineteen eighties sci fi horror classic
Speaker 3: Fire in the Sky, which I never saw when I
Speaker 3: was younger, and only recently there's been this clip making
Speaker 3: the rounds of this scene where do is being probed
Speaker 3: in the face with these weird pneumatic tubes that are
Speaker 3: shooting goo up his nose and these really horrifying aliens
Speaker 3: hovering over and I swear to god, it's the scariest
Speaker 3: thing I've ever seen. It's like total nightmare fuel. Is
Speaker 3: there any like when we say that that film is
Speaker 3: based on this occurrence, did he report being invaded in
Speaker 3: this way? Bodily?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So he's missing for five days, right, and he does.
Speaker 4: He explains things that happen on the ship, but he
Speaker 4: says it only feels maybe like a couple hours. He
Speaker 4: reappears about twenty miles away from where he went missing.
Speaker 4: When he comes back to Earth and he notices he's
Speaker 4: gone for five days, he has no idea. There's like
Speaker 4: a time lapse. When he sees his brother, His brothers like,
Speaker 4: feel your face, and he's got five days growth of beard.
Speaker 4: So what happens in the ship somehow to him, maybe
Speaker 4: he was unconscious for some of it. It feels a
Speaker 4: brief period of time for how long he was missing.
Speaker 4: But yes, so this is interesting. I'm sure you guys
Speaker 4: know some of the races of aliens. But he reportedly
Speaker 4: first sees like tall grays. It seems like one of
Speaker 4: the grays. I believe it was tall grays, and when
Speaker 4: he freaks out by them, he freaks out. He somehow
Speaker 4: gets off the what's it called, like the operating table
Speaker 4: or whatever. Another creature comes in that looks more humanoid.
Speaker 4: I forget what the names of those species are that
Speaker 4: he explained, but they kind of are like blonde and
Speaker 4: look kind of like Greek gods or something. But that's
Speaker 4: the other species, he explained, seeing which seems like they
Speaker 4: kind of presented this more human looking person to him
Speaker 4: to get him to calm down. But like I said, Payne,
Speaker 4: talk to him. He got all these crazy details. He
Speaker 4: relives it. I mean listening to him talk. Yeah, whatever
Speaker 4: happened to him, he believes happened to him.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 2: You can hear him get emotional, and especially about how telling.
Speaker 5: This story has affected him.
Speaker 2: Right, he could have said when he got back that,
Speaker 2: oh well, I made up that story and his life
Speaker 2: could have probably been better because his like that's been
Speaker 2: his The rest of his life has been that. Right,
Speaker 2: It's almost like being trapped in some sort of hell.
Speaker 2: And if he was just making up the story, then
Speaker 2: you know, he is said out loud I wish.
Speaker 4: I wasn't living his entire identity. Is that alien guy
Speaker 4: that was abducted like that? That sucks? Like he has
Speaker 4: no he is not Travis Walton. He's not really a
Speaker 4: person anymore? Is this objectified story? And I think that's
Speaker 4: one of the things that's so interesting in these credible
Speaker 4: abductions is none of these people want that attention. Why
Speaker 4: would you want this kind of attention? It becomes harassment,
Speaker 4: It ruins your life, Like, what is it Betty and
Speaker 4: Barney White? Is that a name?
Speaker 5: Hill?
Speaker 4: Hill? They were an interracial couple back in segregation times fifties, sixties.
Speaker 4: They did not want that attention at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had such a weird situation where they were
Speaker 2: recounting things well, going under some form of hypnosis, which
Speaker 2: was really interesting. And some of the regression techniques that
Speaker 2: we've talked about on the show before that you know,
Speaker 2: are they're pretty questionable. But at the same time, it's like,
Speaker 2: who knows, you know, you have to allow yourself to
Speaker 2: suspend disbelief long enough to actually hear someone out right
Speaker 2: or explore topics we think. But yeah, Betty and Barney Hill,
Speaker 2: that's another situation where it just it's those two actually,
Speaker 2: Travis Walton, Betty and Barney Hill are probably the two
Speaker 2: that I can think of the top of my head
Speaker 2: that are the most credible abduction stories. There's one there's
Speaker 2: oh man, I can't remember her name. There's somebody who
Speaker 2: was featured on a Netflix document.
Speaker 4: Or abducted in Manhattan or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was fascinating, fascinating, but also you know, there's
Speaker 2: conflicting stories with that one about who's telling the truth,
Speaker 2: who's lying, and what are their motivations and all that stuff.
Speaker 4: So that one is kind of related to this in
Speaker 4: the sense that there was like at least two dozen
Speaker 4: witnesses right that see this woman levitate out her window
Speaker 4: and be abducted. But then as the documentary goes on,
Speaker 4: Sorry spoiler, you could skip ahead, but it was like
Speaker 4: group think what is it called, Like they were influenced
Speaker 4: to kind of remember this was what they were seeing
Speaker 4: and their witness statements might not have been particularly credible,
Speaker 4: I know, but we don't see that in this Travis
Speaker 4: Walton case, right, Like these guys are all like, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: this is what we saw.
Speaker 3: Adams just no reason to double down like that for
Speaker 3: that long. It's really really fascinating. I just want to
Speaker 3: add to that. And the Sky came out in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety three, not the eighties, and Travis Waltson is like
Speaker 3: an extra. He plays citizen number three in Fire in
Speaker 3: the Sky. And I don't know that it's a particularly
Speaker 3: great movie, but the alien surgery scene is the stuff
Speaker 3: of nightmares. So I highly recommended the very least looking
Speaker 3: that one up. It's definitely one of the most horrific
Speaker 3: alien abduction type scenes I've ever seen.
Speaker 5: It reminds me of the movie Jacob's.
Speaker 3: Ladder a lot like it's very early nineties absolute terror.
Speaker 4: That was actually you mentioned. I just want to bring
Speaker 4: up one more thing that when he resurfaced five days later,
Speaker 4: he had lost a ton of weight, was very very skinny.
Speaker 4: Clearly it seemed like he had not eaten for days.
Speaker 4: But when they did like blood work and checked on him,
Speaker 4: his like levels were okay. Like it seemed like wherever
Speaker 4: he was and whoever had him knew how to keep
Speaker 4: him alive and knew how to keep him stable. Which
Speaker 4: was one of those like weird little like how if
Speaker 4: he did just disappear on his own, how did he
Speaker 4: lose this much weight? To the point of starving but
Speaker 4: still be totally fine internally.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is really splating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, supplements, because well, you know, if you put yourself
Speaker 2: in the mind of an investigator, like from a sheriff's
Speaker 2: department or something, in the first days that this is happening,
Speaker 2: you may think, oh, this guy looks like someone who
Speaker 2: was lost in the woods for five days. But then
Speaker 2: you get those tests done, like, oh, well, actually no,
Speaker 2: he's got plenty of calcium.
Speaker 5: How why very weird.
Speaker 2: It's a really great example. Does up in Vanish Weekly
Speaker 2: cover stories like this that are a little more out there.
Speaker 4: Sometimes we love to I love to especially, So there's
Speaker 4: a couple others we're going to talk about today. One
Speaker 4: of them is Richard Cox. He is a West Point
Speaker 4: cadet who vanished into thin air, and one of the
Speaker 4: leading theories is he went into the CIA, which I
Speaker 4: know is something you guys love talking about.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, so a case based on the possibility that
Speaker 2: someone cut all contacts and went somewhere else to work
Speaker 2: for the outfit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really I'm actually very excited to hear y'all's
Speaker 4: take on this one, because you probably know more about
Speaker 4: going into the CIA than I do.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we've heard many a tale where somebody has,
Speaker 2: you know, pretended to start a new job or something,
Speaker 2: but they're actually going to work for the CIA. But
Speaker 2: most of the instances we've seen people don't just cut
Speaker 2: all contacts and then start working for the outfit somewhere.
Speaker 3: That's a really good point, Matt. And as you could imagine, folks,
Speaker 3: we actually have the story that we're going to get
Speaker 3: into where more or less just that happens. So let's
Speaker 3: take a quick word from our sponsor and we back
Speaker 3: with more from Maggie.
Speaker 2: And we've returned, let's jump into the story of Richard Cox. Maggie,
Speaker 2: why don't you set us up with some of the details.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure so. Richard Colvin Dick Cox enlisted in the army.
Speaker 3: Sure, sorry, please continue.
Speaker 4: I'm a child, a young man who enlisted in the
Speaker 4: Army in nineteen forty six. So this is a historic case.
Speaker 4: We are going way back to Cold War era CIA.
Speaker 4: He enlisted nineteen forty eight in the West Point Military
Speaker 4: Academy that is in New York. And he's a pretty
Speaker 4: normal guy. He's writing home, he has a fiance and
Speaker 4: life is good for him. So he receives a phone
Speaker 4: call January seventh, nineteen fifty, to his dorm, and virtually
Speaker 4: after that call, he's really never seen again. You know,
Speaker 4: we'll go into detail, but that's kind of what happens.
Speaker 4: He vanishes off the face of the earth.
Speaker 3: It's kind of a big deal to go to West Point.
Speaker 3: I mean, we talk about it on the show a lot,
Speaker 3: and certainly something that comes up in like the a
Speaker 3: few Good Men type films of cinema. There is a
Speaker 3: huge amount of prestige that goes into enlisting in West
Speaker 3: Point Military Academy.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: For me, it feels like the equivalent of Ivy League. Yeah,
Speaker 2: an Ivy League school, but for the military.
Speaker 4: I think the Richard Cox is the only west Point
Speaker 4: cadet to ever vanish. Like, I think that was one
Speaker 4: of the things that maybe made his case like really crazy.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 4: So January seventh, nineteen fifty, he gets a phone call
Speaker 4: at his dorm and his roommate takes the call and
Speaker 4: it's from a man named George, and he says, tell
Speaker 4: him George called, He'll know who I am. We knew
Speaker 4: each other in Germany. I'm here for a little while,
Speaker 4: and tell him I'd like to get a bite to eat.
Speaker 4: So Richard was deployed to Germany for a small amount
Speaker 4: of time doing low level intelligence work. So this man
Speaker 4: is saying they work together over there, but Richard tells
Speaker 4: his roommate he has no idea. He doesn't know what George.
Speaker 4: He doesn't know who the George is except his roommate
Speaker 4: then says later on, he goes to meet a guy
Speaker 4: named George. So things are really weird right now with
Speaker 4: this George guy.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so it sounds really secretive. And if there
Speaker 2: is intelligence work that was done in Germany and it's
Speaker 2: somebody actually reaching out with a fake name, you know,
Speaker 2: to be like we need to be in contact again,
Speaker 2: I can see this exact set of circumstances taking place right.
Speaker 4: Where he says he doesn't know this guy even though yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So just at the beginning of January nineteen fifty,
Speaker 2: when George comes back to West Point, if he's been
Speaker 2: contacted by somebody in that world and starting some kind
Speaker 2: of discussions, I can see him feeling off and maybe
Speaker 2: even putting feelers out there, because wasn't he he He's
Speaker 2: saying like he's dissatisfied with just life in general.
Speaker 5: Right now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he comes back from Breake just a little dissatisfied,
Speaker 4: like he's just not enamored with his life at West
Speaker 4: Point anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when he's got a fiance out there waiting for him,
Speaker 2: he's got to be finished up.
Speaker 5: So you know, maybe to.
Speaker 2: The outside observer there in Richard's life, things are going great.
Speaker 2: So it is a little it would seem.
Speaker 4: My roommate is the one who starts noticing things are
Speaker 4: really off because he allegedly goes out with this guy
Speaker 4: George comes back and is wasted, like he passes out
Speaker 4: at his desk. His roommate's never seen this. He actually
Speaker 4: took a photo of it that his roommate thought it
Speaker 4: was so odd. He takes a photo of Richard wasted
Speaker 4: at his desk. A short time later, Richard shoots up
Speaker 4: from his desk like awake, stumbles into the stairwell, and
Speaker 4: begins screaming incoherently the name Alice, Alice.
Speaker 3: Wait, so we got a George. Now he got an Alice?
Speaker 4: We got an Alice?
Speaker 3: Sounds like a what nineteen sixties sitcom or something like,
Speaker 3: I'm like a married couple.
Speaker 2: This is wild and that is or isn't the name
Speaker 2: of his fiance.
Speaker 4: It is not the name of his fiance.
Speaker 3: I did touch that, and the brief that you sent
Speaker 3: very unusual. This is a new character that has entered
Speaker 3: the chat.
Speaker 5: Oh dear.
Speaker 4: So his roommate's noticing that this guy George comes into
Speaker 4: the picture and Richard is just acting very very bizarrely.
Speaker 4: So a week later, Richard signs out of the dorm
Speaker 4: and he's last seen by his roommate. He's supposedly heading
Speaker 4: to dinner at an upscale hotel and he's going to
Speaker 4: meet George that night. He misses curfew and is never
Speaker 4: seen again. Whoa oh weak time between George showing up
Speaker 4: and him going missing?
Speaker 2: Uh okay, can I I'm gonna put something out here.
Speaker 5: Maybe it's crazy, but I'm just putting it out here. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Project MK Ultra officially has its beginnings in the year
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty, like right around there, just before you know,
Speaker 2: it's kind of ramping up, I believe officially, if he's
Speaker 2: acting that weird calling out for Alice, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm just putting it out there.
Speaker 3: Maybe in Alaskaalice, you know, I mean, it sounds like
Speaker 3: some LSD's involved.
Speaker 5: To me, that's all I'm saying.
Speaker 4: So I think there's something to that. Right, we're talking
Speaker 4: Cold War era, this kind of like unknown body from Germany,
Speaker 4: like they worked intelligence together. I think that it is
Speaker 4: a very plausible theory that maybe George was a recruiter
Speaker 4: for some three letter agency doing things overseas during the
Speaker 4: Cold War.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. We've talked about paper clip. Right,
Speaker 2: That's one of the major projects that we've focused on
Speaker 2: on this show before, which is the post World War
Speaker 2: two bringing of scientists over and spies and all kinds
Speaker 2: of people that the US specifically and other countries because
Speaker 2: they did it too, thought that would be useful to
Speaker 2: the United States military or scientific you know, establishment. In
Speaker 2: some way, it does make me wonder because we'll never know,
Speaker 2: nobody will ever know what work was being done, right, right,
Speaker 2: and intelligence work could beat anything from gathering information on
Speaker 2: somebody or a place or a program to doing some
Speaker 2: other weird stuff.
Speaker 4: So some things when they searched his room that they found,
Speaker 4: which maybe if he went into the CIA or went
Speaker 4: to do something top secret, maybe he would have brought
Speaker 4: with him. They found eighty seven dollars, which is about
Speaker 4: thirteen hundred dollars to day, So he was leaving money,
Speaker 4: he left some person, no belongings, unmailed letters, civilian clothes,
Speaker 4: a watch. Those things could also point to foul play.
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 4: Would you leave those things if you were like packing
Speaker 4: up to go to Germany to join and eat? Like
Speaker 4: I really don't know, I'm asking you.
Speaker 3: Whenever their disappearance is like that and someone leaves behind
Speaker 3: like you know, sizeable amount of money or like personal
Speaker 3: items or you know, identification or things like that, it's
Speaker 3: usually the first thing that is thought is that there's
Speaker 3: foul play, that someone caught unaware and they left their
Speaker 3: important stuff behind.
Speaker 2: Well, let's give it out. What what is the plausible
Speaker 2: reason that any of us right now, if we were
Speaker 2: gonna just take off from where we are, right where
Speaker 2: we live, why would we leave cash money there? Because
Speaker 2: that's something you can use no matter where you're going,
Speaker 2: what you're doing, right, unless you're going to a different
Speaker 2: country where you can use the currency.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but she could exchange. It's not true amount of money.
Speaker 4: Or if you want to throw people off to think
Speaker 4: you were abducted and killed when you actually snuck into
Speaker 4: a government agency.
Speaker 5: We have we have covered too much true crime?
Speaker 2: I think amongst us on this episode, I watch too
Speaker 2: many episodes of things.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, so here's another possible lead. So a few years
Speaker 4: after he disappears March nineteen fifty two, a buddy of
Speaker 4: his from the army says that he bumped into Richard
Speaker 4: in DC in a bus station. They talked, had a conversation,
Speaker 4: and he believes, you know, this was Richard because when
Speaker 4: he bumped into him two years after he went missing,
Speaker 4: he didn't know Richard was missing. It's the fifties. We
Speaker 4: didn't have Facebook and Instagram to announce when her friends
Speaker 4: are missing. He didn't report seeing Richard this day until
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty four, two years after he saw him, four
Speaker 4: years after he went missing.
Speaker 2: Okay, but okay, let's say that really happened. Does that
Speaker 2: mean he just went underground because his fiance never saw
Speaker 2: him again, right, his family never saw him again. He's
Speaker 2: just working for some Yeah, okay, so if he is
Speaker 2: working for a newly formed intelligence agency, he is doing
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff and he really does just cut ties.
Speaker 2: How in the heck is he going to be anywhere
Speaker 2: in the US walking around or do we think that's
Speaker 2: a credible sighting.
Speaker 4: I think that is a credible sighting, and at least
Speaker 4: when I spoke to Laura about this case, Laura Norton,
Speaker 4: who does the Fall Line and she's investigated this case,
Speaker 4: she believes that's a credible sighting. There is another sighting
Speaker 4: in May of nineteen sixty, so ten years after he
Speaker 4: allegedly vanishes, he is seen in Melbourne, Florida. So follow
Speaker 4: me here. An FBI agent is on an undercover assignment
Speaker 4: and is drinking with the contact. The contact is with
Speaker 4: a man named R. C. Mansfield. Later, the man says
Speaker 4: this is a fake name. His real name is Richard Cox. Okay,
Speaker 4: so he intimates he's considered dead by the army and
Speaker 4: his mother. An FBI stakeout is planned nine days later,
Speaker 4: but the subject never shows. So this is an incident
Speaker 4: that happens with an FBI agent. So an FBI guy
Speaker 4: reports this, He meets this man RC. Mansfield's are going
Speaker 4: to do a sting. It never happens. He admits he's
Speaker 4: Richard Cox. Never heard from again? What so r C. Mansfield? Yeah,
Speaker 4: Richard Cox.
Speaker 1: R C.
Speaker 4: And Mansfield is actually where Richard Cox was born. So
Speaker 4: this sounds like a good pseudonym if this was him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, wait, so is the good guy?
Speaker 3: Let's just.
Speaker 4: Good as in I think we found him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, was the FBI stakeout to find.
Speaker 4: Unrelated related Okay, yeah, so this is like an unrelated
Speaker 4: FBI thing. This FBI source is drinking with another source
Speaker 4: who is with Richard Cox.
Speaker 2: Okay, ah, that is awfully strange. This whole thing feels
Speaker 2: so weird I am internally now, I am leaning towards
Speaker 2: somebody that an agency wanted just to have off the
Speaker 2: books and a person who was ready and willing.
Speaker 5: To do that.
Speaker 4: So that's what I'm wondering from you guys, since you
Speaker 4: guys cover a lot of this three letter agency top
Speaker 4: secret things. Would you need to disappear somebody like this
Speaker 4: in order to join the CIA?
Speaker 3: Not to join, right, doesn't seem that way. It seems
Speaker 3: like you would do that if someone were, you know,
Speaker 3: an enemy of some stripe or someone that had compromised
Speaker 3: information or someone that you needed to probe, not in
Speaker 3: like the like our first story, the UAP kind of way,
Speaker 3: like that's when you disappear people is to take them
Speaker 3: to a black site and like get information out of them.
Speaker 3: You don't do that to your pals or.
Speaker 4: What if he was joining with his.
Speaker 3: Protection, Yeah, coach, sure, Okay, I.
Speaker 4: Like it because I do think he spoke a little German,
Speaker 4: a little Russian.
Speaker 3: I mean, if it was during the Cold War and
Speaker 3: he was hanging out, he might have picked up a
Speaker 3: little of both.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, he is in his room. They found a
Speaker 4: letter to his friend talking about Russia and communism. WHOA,
Speaker 4: So maybe he maybe is by.
Speaker 3: In which case he would have been disappeared exactly for that.
Speaker 2: Okay, well yes, yes, Well which side is he working for?
Speaker 2: Which is like, how do you prove that? Because he
Speaker 2: could be a turncoat turncoat you know, like you can
Speaker 2: take as many times as one. Well no, but really,
Speaker 2: and if you and if the CIA or any intelligence
Speaker 2: agency wants someone who's truly a shadow, who doesn't exist
Speaker 2: officially anywhere on paper, who isn't getting paid officially through
Speaker 2: any payroll, somebody who can just go and do stuff
Speaker 2: that the agency wants done that is off the books
Speaker 2: and maybe even illegal, somebody like this is who you get.
Speaker 4: That's a great point. It is illegal, it is treason.
Speaker 4: So yeah, they would want to I guess protect him
Speaker 4: in that sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you can get him, you know, up
Speaker 2: the ladder on the other side. We just talked recently
Speaker 2: about spies and a couple of high level spies in
Speaker 2: the US, like one guy who was working for the
Speaker 2: US coming for a long time, but he was actually
Speaker 2: working for the Cuban government for decades, like he was
Speaker 2: just reporting back to the Cuban government for decades, but
Speaker 2: he was I can't.
Speaker 5: Remember his name. We'll look that up and talk about
Speaker 5: it here in a second.
Speaker 3: But well, just can I just add that if you're
Speaker 3: thinking about this and this is interesting to you, we
Speaker 3: do have an episode or maybe it was was a
Speaker 3: whole episode about why so many spies have been getting
Speaker 3: caught like yeah.
Speaker 4: They just did that. It was what Yeah, why are
Speaker 4: so many?
Speaker 3: I think it's an important question and maybe a question
Speaker 3: that's older than you might think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Manuel Roacha, by the way, is the gentleman's name.
Speaker 2: Forty years as a Cuban agent.
Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, check that out.
Speaker 4: So one more thing that you guys probably know a
Speaker 4: bit about. We mentioned how West Point's super prestigious. You
Speaker 4: can't just go a wall either, like they don't let
Speaker 4: that happen. So there was a very large search for
Speaker 4: Richard Cox as well.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and everything you do is going to be
Speaker 2: on campus there. When he's talking about going to get
Speaker 2: a bite to eat or something, he's going to a
Speaker 2: restaurant that's a part of an establishment on campus somewhere.
Speaker 2: So it's not as it's like for all.
Speaker 3: Intents and purposes, being on a military base have basically.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't. You can't just walk off base and disappear.
Speaker 4: You sign in at times, you're checked, you are, it's regimented,
Speaker 4: you are training to be deployed. So yeah, there was
Speaker 4: a huge search. I mean, and I guess that's a
Speaker 4: question I have as well. The FBI was looking for him.
Speaker 4: He was being sought by the FBI, the army. Would
Speaker 4: the CIA communicate with the FBI to not search for him?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Wait, I don't put out a the opposite of an APB,
Speaker 3: like yeah, like, hey.
Speaker 4: We have him, don't waste your okay.
Speaker 3: Don't waste your resources.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like like he's with us, don't Because they
Speaker 4: they did. He was declared dead in nineteen fifty seven,
Speaker 4: and there was an in tense search for this A
Speaker 4: Wall cadet, because again, he was the only West Point
Speaker 4: cadet to go missing from West Point ever.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a that's nuts. So seven years until he
Speaker 2: was declared dead, did the did intelligence services or the
Speaker 2: army ever stop looking for him or do they still
Speaker 2: look for him today?
Speaker 4: I don't. I think once you're declared dead, they don't
Speaker 4: look for you.
Speaker 3: Okay, I can't.
Speaker 4: I can't confirm that. But at least with most missing
Speaker 4: persons cases, in those kinds of cases, when you declare
Speaker 4: someone dead, the case is closed. I don't know how
Speaker 4: the military does it. Heard, Oh yeah, okay, here we
Speaker 4: go nineteen seventy six, After searching Europe and North America,
Speaker 4: the case is officially closed by the Department of the Army.
Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy six. Wow, so they left that open just
Speaker 2: in the like in the case that he is found
Speaker 2: somewhere doing something either he shouldn't be doing, or that
Speaker 2: only a few, you know, key individuals know he's doing.
Speaker 4: So fast forward. In nineteen ninety six, a book comes
Speaker 4: out called Oblivion, and it cites a CIA operative as
Speaker 4: its source who claims that Richard Cox did work in
Speaker 4: the intelligence field in Europe during the Cold war, and
Speaker 4: it says he lived there until the nineteen nineties before
Speaker 4: dying of cancer in Maryland.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, wait, so we can't Okay, so went and
Speaker 2: did all that stuff, then he came back. Well, just
Speaker 2: I guess to be with family that he disowned, and I.
Speaker 4: Guess, like I have so many questions, like where did
Speaker 4: the fiance go?
Speaker 3: Like what if I might take a just a momentary
Speaker 3: diversion from this story and just ask, have you heard
Speaker 3: this notion that Jim Morrison is alive and living in
Speaker 3: upstate New York and has been for you know, the
Speaker 3: duration of his life since he faked his own death.
Speaker 3: There's some document tree out that has like relatively compelling
Speaker 3: proof of this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's with Paul McCartney when he faked his death.
Speaker 3: So we got a little thousands of.
Speaker 4: Young women getting killed because he was dead. Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I really want to see whatever this documentary is
Speaker 3: because I just I would, you know, as a pop
Speaker 3: culture nerd and as like a you know, music nerd,
Speaker 3: and also just a conspiracy nerd, I would love to
Speaker 3: find proof positive that somebody successfully, somebody that public successfully
Speaker 3: did a thing like that.
Speaker 4: It would just be years ago, years ago. I interviewed
Speaker 4: this woman, Elizabeth Greenwood, and she wrote a book about
Speaker 4: faking your own death because she was like, I need
Speaker 4: to know if this is possible.
Speaker 3: We did. We talked to her as well, didn't we met?
Speaker 3: What was the book called Ben's a Big Thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's called Yes.
Speaker 3: A Million Percent. I don't know if we spoke to her,
Speaker 3: but Ben Ben loves that book and talks about it
Speaker 3: all the time.
Speaker 4: Great, So then your listeners will absolutely know how nearly
Speaker 4: impossible it is to disappear yourself, especially these days. Maybe
Speaker 4: nineteen fifties not so much, but when you have the
Speaker 4: entire military government agency searching for you across continents.
Speaker 3: Don't like your chances.
Speaker 4: No, no. But one of the theories too, is that
Speaker 4: he disappeared himself because there were some reports that he
Speaker 4: was potentially gay and he was potentially seeing men secretively
Speaker 4: and kind of. When he came back from spring break,
Speaker 4: he realized he didn't want to be with his fiance.
Speaker 3: And spring break does it every time.
Speaker 4: Winter break, spring break, break, whatever. That is one of
Speaker 4: the theories that you know, he went a wall to
Speaker 4: go live a different life.
Speaker 3: Totally.
Speaker 2: I can okay, I can see that simply because of
Speaker 2: the year that this was taking place in the military,
Speaker 2: all of these things that that life, if that is
Speaker 2: your identity and your life and you're stuck in all
Speaker 2: of those, you know, different mechanisms that are controlling your life,
Speaker 2: one of the only ways out is to disappear, like
Speaker 2: really and truly, because you could probably get in trouble
Speaker 2: at that time for that stuff.
Speaker 3: Not to be super heavy or anything. But my father,
Speaker 3: who was born in nineteen thirty seven and would have
Speaker 3: been in the military around the same time, after he
Speaker 3: passed away, we found out that he was secretly gay,
Speaker 3: and this was a secret that he had had to whatever,
Speaker 3: choose to live with, choose to move past, whatever. But
Speaker 3: the reality of it is he was not living his
Speaker 3: truth and went on to you know, work in Methodist
Speaker 3: churches as a choir director. He was from the opera
Speaker 3: world after his military time and working on a military base,
Speaker 3: et cetera. But I'm just saying I understand very personally
Speaker 3: that terrifying thing to have to make you know, those
Speaker 3: in those days, it just was not something that was okay,
Speaker 3: and it absolutely could have been the kind of thing
Speaker 3: that would lead someone who had the ability maybe more
Speaker 3: so than someone like my dad to do.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, wow. Wow, that's really that's an incredible story.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think, you know, especially all of
Speaker 4: us being born in the modern era, I think it's
Speaker 4: also really difficult to fathom what life was like in
Speaker 4: the fifties or someone who's gay. We're not even talking
Speaker 4: about the eighties, you know, it's like the nineteen fifties. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was. Was it a did you just mention that
Speaker 4: it was a crime.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a crime per se, but it was just
Speaker 3: totally even in like you know, the opera community in
Speaker 3: New York City, you know, which my dad was a
Speaker 3: part of, it just was like either an open secret,
Speaker 3: like I think maybe one one person folks might think
Speaker 3: of as Leonard Bernstein, who you know, was as openly
Speaker 3: gay as you could be in a world like that,
Speaker 3: but even he had to be very very careful about it,
Speaker 3: and you know, his wife kind of knew and allowed
Speaker 3: him to live that part of his life. But my
Speaker 3: dad wasn't as famous as Leonard Bernstein, so you know, anyway,
Speaker 3: it's just yeah, it was absolutely not a crime per se,
Speaker 3: but it was it could.
Speaker 4: Have been the kind of thing through don't don't tell, right.
Speaker 3: It's the kind of thing that could have ruined your career.
Speaker 3: It's the kind of thing that could have ruined not
Speaker 3: to mention, if you're in the military for all intents
Speaker 3: and purposes, it is a crime. It's an absolute life ruiner,
Speaker 3: for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I just did a quick search about it.
Speaker 4: In the fifties, particularly in the military, and it says actually,
Speaker 4: fueled by the Cold War, they actively discriminated and purged
Speaker 4: LGBTQ plus individuals in the military, and this was known
Speaker 4: as the lavender scare very specifically the Cold War.
Speaker 3: Do you recall that term?
Speaker 2: Ugh, yeah, Yeah, the Cold War caught up pretty much
Speaker 2: anybody that was not in this cookie cutter shape of
Speaker 2: what the military wanted, and anybody that didn't fit in
Speaker 2: that shape, we are suspect of you because you could
Speaker 2: be unhappy with the way our cookie cutter is shaped.
Speaker 5: Which makes sense, which.
Speaker 3: Is ironic considering we were meant to be the great
Speaker 3: liberators of you know, the Jews under the Nazi regime,
Speaker 3: who absolutely had that same kind of mentality about purging
Speaker 3: queer people, about purging Jewish people, about pershing Romani people,
Speaker 3: you know, and then we absolutely adopted pretty much a
Speaker 3: maybe lighter but very similar approach to calling out the
Speaker 3: unwonted element.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, then we got past it now in h.
Speaker 4: We're post post.
Speaker 3: Who was it that I was talking to recently, Not
Speaker 3: to get off the topic too much, but I know
Speaker 3: it was. It was my friend John Cameron Mitchell, who's
Speaker 3: the guy that created Hedwig and the Angry Inch, And
Speaker 3: he's just he's we've done some podcasting together and he's
Speaker 3: a lovely person. And he came to Atlanta and I was
Speaker 3: doing a talk and he mentioned the idea that he
Speaker 3: came from a military background and that it was the
Speaker 3: most in the I guess the seventies when he was
Speaker 3: in it, it was the most inclusive situation he'd ever
Speaker 3: been a part of, in that the generals, even when
Speaker 3: they were told to get rid of gay and trans people,
Speaker 3: they slow rolled it because it just didn't make sense,
Speaker 3: what's the word operationally to have that kind of you know,
Speaker 3: us versus them, Like if you're in, you're in. So
Speaker 3: it would seem based on John, that the attitude within
Speaker 3: the military has definitely actually changed.
Speaker 4: Which you're correct there. My partner who Matt has met,
Speaker 4: he's a veteran, and he said, you know, when he
Speaker 4: sees all these like new Trump Trumpian, you know, kicking
Speaker 4: out trans people from the military, he was like, anyone
Speaker 4: actually serving does not feel that way, Like anyone currently
Speaker 4: serving actually loves having women in the military. He said,
Speaker 4: those units are better regimented, like better at at their jobs.
Speaker 4: So it's so fascinating. Yeah, not to get too off topic,
Speaker 4: but none.
Speaker 3: I just think it's worth mentioning is the way things
Speaker 3: have changed, and there are some positive changes in ideology,
Speaker 3: even in a place that I was very surprised that
Speaker 3: you might find that, you know it which military.
Speaker 4: So anyway, absolutely so Richard Cox, I don't know, Uh,
Speaker 4: maybe George was his lover and they ran away together.
Speaker 4: I feel like I lean more towards he went into
Speaker 4: some agency.
Speaker 2: I feel like Richard and George is like the best
Speaker 2: version of this story. That's the happiest outcome.
Speaker 4: That I think so too.
Speaker 2: The scariest one is that he's a shadow doing stuff
Speaker 2: for the for the intelligence agencies that we never knew about.
Speaker 3: Did I miss who Alice is?
Speaker 4: No, we don't know who Alice is?
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, just a.
Speaker 4: Night terror and exactly we unclear I know in our
Speaker 4: episode Laura, Laura mentions a couple hypotheses. So if y'all
Speaker 4: want to listen to.
Speaker 3: That, absolutely always good to have some homework. I mean
Speaker 3: that for folks at home to listen to if you
Speaker 3: want to find out more about either of these stories.
Speaker 3: I think we've got some great resources.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Laura, I think read oblivion. So she's she's really
Speaker 4: up on all the theories around Richard Cox. And like
Speaker 4: I said, Payne did high strange doctor Travis Walton exactly.
Speaker 3: Matt. Can I just applauge that you your self control
Speaker 3: for not mentioning Elder scrolls on the second mention of
Speaker 3: oblivion here, I just want to say, well done, sir.
Speaker 5: I have a map of it in my basement.
Speaker 3: Do you gifted me a map of l my guest
Speaker 3: room which is up there with pride?
Speaker 2: Sorry, why don't be sorry.
Speaker 5: It's an amazing thing.
Speaker 3: I love it. It gives me joy. It makes me
Speaker 3: think of you every time I look at it.
Speaker 2: Well, well, thanks, buddy, it gives me joy. On you
Speaker 2: have it really quickly, Maggie, before we let you go,
Speaker 2: if we if we step away from up in Vanish
Speaker 2: Weekly and we think about your work on wrongful conviction.
Speaker 2: And just as you're watching the news, as you're seeing
Speaker 2: changes occurring right now, is there anything we should be
Speaker 2: looking at or thinking about when it comes to individuals
Speaker 2: either being incarcerated or individuals being you know, shipped out
Speaker 2: of the country and maybe to a prison in Venezuela
Speaker 2: or somewhere else. What should we be thinking about right now?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think all of those things. I think one
Speaker 4: of the things that I'm really thinking about is when
Speaker 4: we're talking about wars overseas, we feel like they don't
Speaker 4: impact us at home, and we are currently embroiled in
Speaker 4: many situation overseas, But a lot of the technology that
Speaker 4: we use over there to fight our quote enemies civilians,
Speaker 4: we use here on our own people or we will
Speaker 4: be using. So cop Cities is something I'm thinking about
Speaker 4: a lot. And yeah, you guys an episode on Cop City.
Speaker 3: We talked about it in news episodes, and we're talking
Speaker 3: about it as a very local, regional thing and a
Speaker 3: cause here in the Atlanta area, also pertaining to deforestation
Speaker 3: and just absolutely in Atlanta.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean, just the the technology is I
Speaker 4: guess what I really want is what I'm trying to
Speaker 4: say is the technologies that we are using and testing
Speaker 4: overseas on civilian populations, on our quote enemies. These drones
Speaker 4: that we saw that can just go into a building
Speaker 4: and shoot people up. You don't need humans there. We
Speaker 4: have robot dogs. Those are all coming here. And if
Speaker 4: people don't think that our police will use those on us,
Speaker 4: If people don't think that, you know, people with green cards,
Speaker 4: you know, are now being deported, legal legal permanent residents
Speaker 4: are being deported. If you don't think that can happen
Speaker 4: to you, a citizen or.
Speaker 3: Speaking out for speaking out against a regime.
Speaker 4: So I think that's what I want people to think about.
Speaker 4: Like when we're like, oh it's overseas that it doesn't matter,
Speaker 4: Oh it's just happening to the brown people or the
Speaker 4: green card holders, it will come for you. They test
Speaker 4: it first to see what they can get away with.
Speaker 4: And that's what I want people to think about. I
Speaker 4: want you to go protest your cop cities. I want
Speaker 4: you to protest all of these people being deported and
Speaker 4: we don't even know who they are or what they
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we recently did an episode on the
Speaker 2: disposition matrix that is actually I want to say something
Speaker 2: that we had a little off in conversation with your
Speaker 2: partner about, which is just how specifically the Obama administration
Speaker 2: and every administration after that, and then into the before
Speaker 2: the Bush administration, how they look at an individual person
Speaker 2: and categorize them as leaning towards a terrorist organization or
Speaker 2: being a member of a terrorist organization, or you know,
Speaker 2: vulnerable to being influenced or that kind of thing, and
Speaker 2: then how that system could be taken and used to
Speaker 2: look at American citizens. And it feels pretty naive to
Speaker 2: think that there isn't something like that, some kind of
Speaker 2: way at looking at all of the people we know
Speaker 2: as individuals, all the things we search, all the conversations
Speaker 2: we have with the metadata, I mean, because we know
Speaker 2: all that stuff's getting picked up now days with stellar
Speaker 2: wind and all of these things.
Speaker 4: Like it's well, that's a great example twenty years ago
Speaker 4: when what was it the Patriot Act, right, and we
Speaker 4: think it's just to surveil terror We're just surveiling terrorists,
Speaker 4: just those brown guys overseas. We're all being surveiled now, right,
Speaker 4: twenty years ago it was just for the bad guys.
Speaker 4: Now it's all of us, every single one of us.
Speaker 4: So for people to think that they're not going to
Speaker 4: just start snatching you up because something you posted on Twitter,
Speaker 4: that's that's incredibly naive and absolute.
Speaker 3: And maybe this is naive or a little on the nose,
Speaker 3: but it just it makes me think of this incredible
Speaker 3: quote from a German pastor named Martin Emohler. I believe
Speaker 3: this is displayed at the National Holocaust Museum, and it's First,
Speaker 3: they came for the socialists, and I did not speak
Speaker 3: out because I was not a socialist. Then they came
Speaker 3: for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out
Speaker 3: because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came
Speaker 3: for the Jews, and I did not speak out because
Speaker 3: I was not a Jew. Then they came from me,
Speaker 3: and there was no one left to.
Speaker 4: Speak for me exactly.
Speaker 3: So coming all kind of makes me tear up a
Speaker 3: little bit, y'all. It's it's heavy. I'm sorry it.
Speaker 4: Is, and it's sad because it's happened, it's already happened,
Speaker 4: like and it's just happening again, and just it's just
Speaker 4: a different form. This time. It's in a technology form,
Speaker 4: you know, whereas last time it was like you know,
Speaker 4: I'm talking about World War Two. It was like this
Speaker 4: big military oc Gristapo exactly. Now it's in digital form.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, guys on that. Sorry, sorry, this very serious
Speaker 2: important stuff, and it is it is worth your time
Speaker 2: to think about, right, and maybe have a conversation with
Speaker 2: somebody you care about about this thing. And and also, hey,
Speaker 2: listen to some podcasts that aren't specifically about that stuff
Speaker 2: or else all of us are going to go nuts.
Speaker 2: So Maggie, tell us where people should go to hear
Speaker 2: your shows, specifically Up and Vanish Weekly, and uh, just
Speaker 2: learn more about what.
Speaker 5: You're up to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could find me on all platforms, Maggie Freeling,
Speaker 4: and definitely search Up and Vanish Weekly. Follow it, rate it.
Speaker 4: It's really exciting. We're doing a lot of fun new
Speaker 4: stuff as the show progresses.
Speaker 2: I know a spoiler alert. I'm on at least one
Speaker 2: of those episodes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you are too, you are You're on the pin train, Noel,
Speaker 4: do you want to come on? Please come on?
Speaker 3: Put me in coach. I'm always down. Nobody asks me
Speaker 3: to be on stuff because I don't. I don't ask
Speaker 3: to be on stuff, but just let this be known.
Speaker 3: I'm always down to be on anything that you do,
Speaker 3: Maggie for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean, any any strange case you want
Speaker 4: to talk about. I mean we also have a list
Speaker 4: of cases we could pitch you some or whatever.
Speaker 3: Well, Maggie, I'm super down to be on anything that
Speaker 3: you are up to and would be honored. And let's uh,
Speaker 3: what do they say, Let's let's let's talk offline. We'll
Speaker 3: figure something out. But thank you so much for now
Speaker 3: for joining us today to talk about these cases and
Speaker 3: talk about all the cool stuff that you're working on.
Speaker 4: Thank you, guys. I have been a huge fan forever.
Speaker 4: I listened weekly, Like I knew what your podcast was
Speaker 4: last week, I.
Speaker 3: Didn't even know what it was.
Speaker 2: I know's that means a ton, though, Maggie, because we're
Speaker 2: going really of everything you do.
Speaker 4: No, you guys are so fun and smart, and I
Speaker 4: know your listeners are too, so I hope there is
Speaker 4: some crossover, y'all. Please come submit cases to us, listen
Speaker 4: to us. We love this this little pod family here.
Speaker 2: Hey, and if you want to reach out and contact us,
Speaker 2: you can find us all over the internet, right, Noel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you sure can. You can find us at the
Speaker 3: handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist on Facebook with our
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Speaker 3: Twitter and they're having some troubles over there here and
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Speaker 3: your perusing enjoyment. On Instagram and TikTok, who are also
Speaker 3: having some trouble. We are the Spiracy Stuff Show. But wait,
Speaker 3: there's more.
Speaker 2: There's no trouble besides the trouble you're about to create
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