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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is name. Our colleague Ben is on an adventure.

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Speaker 2: But you are you. You are here, and that makes

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Speaker 2: this stuff they don't want you to know. We're also

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Speaker 2: joined by our super producer Andrew. We're recalling him now,

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Speaker 2: Frank Train, Try Force Howard, and we are bringing new

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Speaker 2: energy to this episode because we are joined by someone very,

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Speaker 2: very special, someone we've been wanting to talk to for

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Speaker 2: quite a while, ever since we had a conversation with

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Speaker 2: Jason Flamm on this show. You might recognize her when

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Speaker 2: when you hear it for the first time from her

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Speaker 2: work as host and producer of Wrongful Conviction alongside Jason.

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Speaker 2: You might know her voice from the Pulitzer Prize winning

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Speaker 2: podcast Suave that we just saw Maria from Suave at

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Speaker 2: on AirFest very recently. You might also know her from

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Speaker 2: her work as an intern at the US Fish and

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Speaker 2: Wildlife Service.

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Speaker 3: That's mainly where my background is.

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Speaker 4: That's a deep cut.

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Speaker 2: I know, hey, hey, hold on, hold on, you may,

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Speaker 2: but primarily you might know her from Up and Vanished Weekly,

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Speaker 2: the new true crime show that's a spin off of

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Speaker 2: Up and Vanished from Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 5: Welcome, Maggie Freeling.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, that was a lot to like keep keep

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Speaker 4: myself from yelling during But the deep cut fish and

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Speaker 4: wildlife is wild.

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Speaker 3: It's important, well, especially in these are trying times where

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff's getting wet, like eliminated entirely potentially. Oof.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why you're here, Maggie. Let's talk f so

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Speaker 2: and or wildlife.

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Speaker 3: Start with wildlife favorite animal?

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Speaker 4: Go, Oh my gosh, yeah, the fish and wildlife. I did.

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Speaker 4: I did. I wanted to go into conservation or like

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Speaker 4: conservation reporting something like that for a really long time.

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Speaker 4: And that's a really dark place to be in right now.

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Speaker 4: So I'm glad I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wasn't choking though. That wasn't just a clever segue.

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Speaker 3: What is your favorite animal?

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Speaker 4: What is my favorite animal? Oh my gosh, I mean

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Speaker 4: any kind of like cat.

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Speaker 3: Okay, there we go, any fuel adjacent that's cool.

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Speaker 5: All we're all big cat fans.

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Speaker 2: We're just hanging out with Astrid here, that's Andrew's Katy Cat.

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Speaker 2: We've got a bunch of them running around. Look, we're

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Speaker 2: here to talk about up in Vanish Weekly because this

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Speaker 2: brand new show hits the listener. That's us, that's me

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Speaker 2: in particular, with a new either missing person's case, a

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Speaker 2: suspected homicide case, a case of historical importance when it

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Speaker 2: comes to that kind of thing, there are so many

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Speaker 2: to chew from when we were preparing to talk to

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Speaker 2: you today, Maggie abduction maybe in there. We've got a

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Speaker 2: short list of things we're going to talk about, but

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Speaker 2: just for everybody who's listening, before we fully get into

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Speaker 2: the show, we're also going to be talking about a

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Speaker 2: specific hair industry out of India that I learned about

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Speaker 2: when talking with Maggie a little while ago. And that

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Speaker 2: is a deep rabbit hole. That is probably a whole

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Speaker 2: other episode that we might have to bring you back

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Speaker 2: on for.

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Speaker 5: Yes, but there's so many things we're going to talk

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Speaker 5: about today.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back after word from our sponsor with

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Speaker 2: Maggie Freeling.

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Speaker 3: And we have returned with Maggie and we're gonna jump

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Speaker 3: right in to a pretty important case that I think

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Speaker 3: is a really good kind of conduit between up and

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Speaker 3: vanished weekly and stuff they don't want you to know,

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Speaker 3: which is the mysterious disappearance of Travis Walton in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy five. Travis vanished for five days in the fall

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Speaker 3: of that year and returned with some very interesting and

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Speaker 3: conspiracy adjacent claims. Maggie, what do you say we jump

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Speaker 3: right into that story and what these claims were? What

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Speaker 3: you think happened?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I guess have you guys covered this case?

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Speaker 2: I forgot We have talked about Travis Walton when it

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Speaker 2: comes to abduction stories, right, so like kind of a

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Speaker 2: bit of an overview and we're talking years ago.

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Speaker 3: Not a deep talk though, for sure.

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Speaker 2: No, not at all. We have spoken with pain about

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Speaker 2: high Strange and this is one little thing that we

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Speaker 2: mentioned in that interview, but we've never actually looked at

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Speaker 2: the facts.

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Speaker 4: Wow. Okay, so your listeners are going to love this

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Speaker 4: because this is one of those abduction cases that has

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Speaker 4: a lot of credibility to it because is it five

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Speaker 4: or six other people he was with actually saw him

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Speaker 4: hi allegedly be abducted. They saw it. This is what

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Speaker 4: they also say happened. And I find it so interesting

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Speaker 4: because these guys, Okay, so they're all friends, they're loggers,

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Speaker 4: they're in the woods together, and they literally see Travis

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Speaker 4: be abducted. So he goes missing and these guys come

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Speaker 4: back without their friend and they're instantly murder suspects. They

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Speaker 4: think they the police think they did something with him.

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Speaker 4: When they're trying to report him missing, they take polygraph tests.

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Speaker 4: I mean, these guys are suspects. They're about to go

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Speaker 4: to jail and be arrested for doing something to their friend.

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Speaker 4: And then he shows up five days later, I think

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Speaker 4: was it five days let me say, and yeah, five

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Speaker 4: days later and he's like, no, no, I was abducted.

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Speaker 4: And they're all like, see, see, we told you. And

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Speaker 4: even you know, watching documentaries and listening back to the

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Speaker 4: police and people who gave the polygraphs, they're like, it

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Speaker 4: is very difficult and I know this too, for six

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Speaker 4: people to tell the same story time and time again.

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Speaker 4: And that's what happens here. I mean, you know, Travis

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Speaker 4: tells what happened once he was on the ship, and

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Speaker 4: we could talk about that, but in terms of credibility,

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's it. You have six people telling the

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Speaker 4: same story. These guys were gonna go to jail. And

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Speaker 4: they're not saying like this is a joke or whatever.

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Speaker 3: They're like, no, seriously, if you're kinda come up with

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Speaker 3: a cover story for murdering your friend, there are better ones.

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Speaker 3: Then we saw him get pulled up by a tractor

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Speaker 3: beam into the sky, or well, can you maybe tell

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Speaker 3: us a little bit about what they reported seeing, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, more than beyond just our friend was abducted.

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Speaker 3: There has to be some detail around that.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So they're all in the woods, like we said, they're

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Speaker 4: loggers nineteen seventy five, and they all of a sudden, see,

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Speaker 4: they hear a noise and they see in a clearing

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Speaker 4: like a hovering craft. So Travis decides to walk towards

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Speaker 4: it and it kind of investigate what's happening, and really,

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Speaker 4: the next thing they know, they see him fly backwards

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Speaker 4: like he's you know, struck by a beam of light,

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Speaker 4: flies backwards and they run. When they return, he's gone.

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Speaker 3: Like you do not.

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Speaker 4: Maybe not walking towards as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And okay, so they're all aligned on this,

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Speaker 3: and they.

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Speaker 4: Are one hundred person aligned. I mean they all see

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Speaker 4: the same thing, or say they see the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about how rare that is when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the cases you've looked at, not only for Up

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Speaker 2: and Vanish Weekly, but for some of the wrongful conviction

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Speaker 2: specific cases that you've looked at. Where are where there

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Speaker 2: are that number of individuals who are credible witnesses, who

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Speaker 2: are eyes on. They're not just people who are around,

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Speaker 2: you know, saw a little part of something that happened.

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Speaker 2: They all saw the same thing and they're reporting this.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about was listening to other episodes like Jennifer

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Speaker 2: Kesse's disappearance, which is one of the first episodes you

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Speaker 2: guys cover, where one of the best pieces of evidence

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Speaker 2: in that case that you've got is a piece of

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Speaker 2: actual video tape, but you can't actually make the person out.

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Speaker 2: And there's been no nothing has happened with that case

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Speaker 2: because you can't make the person out. But in this case,

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Speaker 2: you've got folks saying something, well, what do you do?

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Speaker 5: Can you go?

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Speaker 2: I don't know what do you do with a UFO? Like,

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Speaker 2: what is there anything? I just don't get it.

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Speaker 4: Well that's so okay. So there's two things there. So

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Speaker 4: you asked about people telling the same story, So you know,

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Speaker 4: when you tell a lie, it is hard to remember

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Speaker 4: that lie because it is not a memory that you have.

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Speaker 4: So then the lie changes, right, That's when people's stories change.

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Speaker 4: They can't remember what they said, so they start changing.

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Speaker 4: These guys, all of them are telling the same story

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Speaker 4: separation time and time, separately and separate polygraphs. They all

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Speaker 4: passed the polygraphs. You know, we all know, you guys

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Speaker 4: talk about it. Polygraphs can't be admitted in court. They're

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Speaker 4: not particularly fallible. But six guys telling the same story,

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Speaker 4: all passing a polygraph can indicate something, you know. So

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Speaker 4: that is something that is really interesting to me about

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Speaker 4: this and Travis telling the same detailed story. You can

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Speaker 4: listen to it on High Strange Pain talks to Travis

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Speaker 4: Walton and he has vivid memories of being inside a spaceship.

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Speaker 5: Oh god, well.

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Speaker 3: Off, Mike. Before we started rolling, I mentioned that we

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Speaker 3: had to talk about this one if for only the

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Speaker 3: opportunity to discuss the nineteen eighties sci fi horror classic

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Speaker 3: Fire in the Sky, which I never saw when I

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Speaker 3: was younger, and only recently there's been this clip making

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Speaker 3: the rounds of this scene where do is being probed

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Speaker 3: in the face with these weird pneumatic tubes that are

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Speaker 3: shooting goo up his nose and these really horrifying aliens

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Speaker 3: hovering over and I swear to god, it's the scariest

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Speaker 3: thing I've ever seen. It's like total nightmare fuel. Is

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Speaker 3: there any like when we say that that film is

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Speaker 3: based on this occurrence, did he report being invaded in

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Speaker 3: this way? Bodily?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? So he's missing for five days, right, and he does.

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Speaker 4: He explains things that happen on the ship, but he

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Speaker 4: says it only feels maybe like a couple hours. He

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Speaker 4: reappears about twenty miles away from where he went missing.

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Speaker 4: When he comes back to Earth and he notices he's

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Speaker 4: gone for five days, he has no idea. There's like

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Speaker 4: a time lapse. When he sees his brother, His brothers like,

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Speaker 4: feel your face, and he's got five days growth of beard.

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Speaker 4: So what happens in the ship somehow to him, maybe

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Speaker 4: he was unconscious for some of it. It feels a

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Speaker 4: brief period of time for how long he was missing.

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Speaker 4: But yes, so this is interesting. I'm sure you guys

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Speaker 4: know some of the races of aliens. But he reportedly

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Speaker 4: first sees like tall grays. It seems like one of

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Speaker 4: the grays. I believe it was tall grays, and when

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Speaker 4: he freaks out by them, he freaks out. He somehow

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Speaker 4: gets off the what's it called, like the operating table

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Speaker 4: or whatever. Another creature comes in that looks more humanoid.

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Speaker 4: I forget what the names of those species are that

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Speaker 4: he explained, but they kind of are like blonde and

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Speaker 4: look kind of like Greek gods or something. But that's

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Speaker 4: the other species, he explained, seeing which seems like they

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Speaker 4: kind of presented this more human looking person to him

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Speaker 4: to get him to calm down. But like I said, Payne,

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Speaker 4: talk to him. He got all these crazy details. He

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Speaker 4: relives it. I mean listening to him talk. Yeah, whatever

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Speaker 4: happened to him, he believes happened to him.

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Speaker 5: Yep.

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Speaker 2: You can hear him get emotional, and especially about how telling.

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Speaker 5: This story has affected him.

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Speaker 2: Right, he could have said when he got back that,

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Speaker 2: oh well, I made up that story and his life

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Speaker 2: could have probably been better because his like that's been

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Speaker 2: his The rest of his life has been that. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's almost like being trapped in some sort of hell.

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Speaker 2: And if he was just making up the story, then

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Speaker 2: you know, he is said out loud I wish.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't living his entire identity. Is that alien guy

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Speaker 4: that was abducted like that? That sucks? Like he has

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Speaker 4: no he is not Travis Walton. He's not really a

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Speaker 4: person anymore? Is this objectified story? And I think that's

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Speaker 4: one of the things that's so interesting in these credible

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Speaker 4: abductions is none of these people want that attention. Why

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Speaker 4: would you want this kind of attention? It becomes harassment,

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Speaker 4: It ruins your life, Like, what is it Betty and

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Speaker 4: Barney White? Is that a name?

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Speaker 5: Hill?

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Speaker 4: Hill? They were an interracial couple back in segregation times fifties, sixties.

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Speaker 4: They did not want that attention at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they had such a weird situation where they were

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Speaker 2: recounting things well, going under some form of hypnosis, which

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Speaker 2: was really interesting. And some of the regression techniques that

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Speaker 2: we've talked about on the show before that you know,

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Speaker 2: are they're pretty questionable. But at the same time, it's like,

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Speaker 2: who knows, you know, you have to allow yourself to

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Speaker 2: suspend disbelief long enough to actually hear someone out right

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Speaker 2: or explore topics we think. But yeah, Betty and Barney Hill,

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Speaker 2: that's another situation where it just it's those two actually,

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Speaker 2: Travis Walton, Betty and Barney Hill are probably the two

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Speaker 2: that I can think of the top of my head

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Speaker 2: that are the most credible abduction stories. There's one there's

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Speaker 2: oh man, I can't remember her name. There's somebody who

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Speaker 2: was featured on a Netflix document.

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Speaker 4: Or abducted in Manhattan or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was fascinating, fascinating, but also you know, there's

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Speaker 2: conflicting stories with that one about who's telling the truth,

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Speaker 2: who's lying, and what are their motivations and all that stuff.

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Speaker 4: So that one is kind of related to this in

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Speaker 4: the sense that there was like at least two dozen

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Speaker 4: witnesses right that see this woman levitate out her window

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Speaker 4: and be abducted. But then as the documentary goes on,

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Speaker 4: Sorry spoiler, you could skip ahead, but it was like

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Speaker 4: group think what is it called, Like they were influenced

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Speaker 4: to kind of remember this was what they were seeing

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Speaker 4: and their witness statements might not have been particularly credible,

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Speaker 4: I know, but we don't see that in this Travis

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Speaker 4: Walton case, right, Like these guys are all like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: this is what we saw.

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Speaker 3: Adams just no reason to double down like that for

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Speaker 3: that long. It's really really fascinating. I just want to

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Speaker 3: add to that. And the Sky came out in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety three, not the eighties, and Travis Waltson is like

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Speaker 3: an extra. He plays citizen number three in Fire in

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Speaker 3: the Sky. And I don't know that it's a particularly

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Speaker 3: great movie, but the alien surgery scene is the stuff

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Speaker 3: of nightmares. So I highly recommended the very least looking

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Speaker 3: that one up. It's definitely one of the most horrific

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Speaker 3: alien abduction type scenes I've ever seen.

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Speaker 5: It reminds me of the movie Jacob's.

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Speaker 3: Ladder a lot like it's very early nineties absolute terror.

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Speaker 4: That was actually you mentioned. I just want to bring

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Speaker 4: up one more thing that when he resurfaced five days later,

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Speaker 4: he had lost a ton of weight, was very very skinny.

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Speaker 4: Clearly it seemed like he had not eaten for days.

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Speaker 4: But when they did like blood work and checked on him,

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Speaker 4: his like levels were okay. Like it seemed like wherever

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Speaker 4: he was and whoever had him knew how to keep

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Speaker 4: him alive and knew how to keep him stable. Which

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Speaker 4: was one of those like weird little like how if

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Speaker 4: he did just disappear on his own, how did he

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Speaker 4: lose this much weight? To the point of starving but

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Speaker 4: still be totally fine internally.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it is really splating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, supplements, because well, you know, if you put yourself

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Speaker 2: in the mind of an investigator, like from a sheriff's

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Speaker 2: department or something, in the first days that this is happening,

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Speaker 2: you may think, oh, this guy looks like someone who

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Speaker 2: was lost in the woods for five days. But then

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Speaker 2: you get those tests done, like, oh, well, actually no,

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Speaker 2: he's got plenty of calcium.

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Speaker 5: How why very weird.

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Speaker 2: It's a really great example. Does up in Vanish Weekly

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Speaker 2: cover stories like this that are a little more out there.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes we love to I love to especially, So there's

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Speaker 4: a couple others we're going to talk about today. One

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Speaker 4: of them is Richard Cox. He is a West Point

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Speaker 4: cadet who vanished into thin air, and one of the

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Speaker 4: leading theories is he went into the CIA, which I

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Speaker 4: know is something you guys love talking about.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, so a case based on the possibility that

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Speaker 2: someone cut all contacts and went somewhere else to work

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Speaker 2: for the outfit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really I'm actually very excited to hear y'all's

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Speaker 4: take on this one, because you probably know more about

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Speaker 4: going into the CIA than I do.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we've heard many a tale where somebody has,

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Speaker 2: you know, pretended to start a new job or something,

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Speaker 2: but they're actually going to work for the CIA. But

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Speaker 2: most of the instances we've seen people don't just cut

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Speaker 2: all contacts and then start working for the outfit somewhere.

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Speaker 3: That's a really good point, Matt. And as you could imagine, folks,

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Speaker 3: we actually have the story that we're going to get

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Speaker 3: into where more or less just that happens. So let's

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Speaker 3: take a quick word from our sponsor and we back

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Speaker 3: with more from Maggie.

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Speaker 2: And we've returned, let's jump into the story of Richard Cox. Maggie,

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Speaker 2: why don't you set us up with some of the details.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sure so. Richard Colvin Dick Cox enlisted in the army.

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Speaker 3: Sure, sorry, please continue.

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Speaker 4: I'm a child, a young man who enlisted in the

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Speaker 4: Army in nineteen forty six. So this is a historic case.

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Speaker 4: We are going way back to Cold War era CIA.

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Speaker 4: He enlisted nineteen forty eight in the West Point Military

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Speaker 4: Academy that is in New York. And he's a pretty

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Speaker 4: normal guy. He's writing home, he has a fiance and

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Speaker 4: life is good for him. So he receives a phone

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Speaker 4: call January seventh, nineteen fifty, to his dorm, and virtually

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Speaker 4: after that call, he's really never seen again. You know,

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Speaker 4: we'll go into detail, but that's kind of what happens.

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Speaker 4: He vanishes off the face of the earth.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of a big deal to go to West Point.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we talk about it on the show a lot,

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Speaker 3: and certainly something that comes up in like the a

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Speaker 3: few Good Men type films of cinema. There is a

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Speaker 3: huge amount of prestige that goes into enlisting in West

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Speaker 3: Point Military Academy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: For me, it feels like the equivalent of Ivy League. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: an Ivy League school, but for the military.

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Speaker 4: I think the Richard Cox is the only west Point

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Speaker 4: cadet to ever vanish. Like, I think that was one

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Speaker 4: of the things that maybe made his case like really crazy.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 4: So January seventh, nineteen fifty, he gets a phone call

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Speaker 4: at his dorm and his roommate takes the call and

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Speaker 4: it's from a man named George, and he says, tell

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Speaker 4: him George called, He'll know who I am. We knew

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Speaker 4: each other in Germany. I'm here for a little while,

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Speaker 4: and tell him I'd like to get a bite to eat.

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Speaker 4: So Richard was deployed to Germany for a small amount

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Speaker 4: of time doing low level intelligence work. So this man

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Speaker 4: is saying they work together over there, but Richard tells

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Speaker 4: his roommate he has no idea. He doesn't know what George.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't know who the George is except his roommate

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Speaker 4: then says later on, he goes to meet a guy

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Speaker 4: named George. So things are really weird right now with

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Speaker 4: this George guy.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, so it sounds really secretive. And if there

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Speaker 2: is intelligence work that was done in Germany and it's

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Speaker 2: somebody actually reaching out with a fake name, you know,

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Speaker 2: to be like we need to be in contact again,

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Speaker 2: I can see this exact set of circumstances taking place right.

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Speaker 4: Where he says he doesn't know this guy even though yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So just at the beginning of January nineteen fifty,

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Speaker 2: when George comes back to West Point, if he's been

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Speaker 2: contacted by somebody in that world and starting some kind

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Speaker 2: of discussions, I can see him feeling off and maybe

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Speaker 2: even putting feelers out there, because wasn't he he He's

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Speaker 2: saying like he's dissatisfied with just life in general.

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Speaker 5: Right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he comes back from Breake just a little dissatisfied,

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Speaker 4: like he's just not enamored with his life at West

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Speaker 4: Point anymore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when he's got a fiance out there waiting for him,

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Speaker 2: he's got to be finished up.

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Speaker 5: So you know, maybe to.

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Speaker 2: The outside observer there in Richard's life, things are going great.

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Speaker 2: So it is a little it would seem.

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Speaker 4: My roommate is the one who starts noticing things are

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Speaker 4: really off because he allegedly goes out with this guy

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Speaker 4: George comes back and is wasted, like he passes out

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Speaker 4: at his desk. His roommate's never seen this. He actually

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Speaker 4: took a photo of it that his roommate thought it

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Speaker 4: was so odd. He takes a photo of Richard wasted

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Speaker 4: at his desk. A short time later, Richard shoots up

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Speaker 4: from his desk like awake, stumbles into the stairwell, and

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Speaker 4: begins screaming incoherently the name Alice, Alice.

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Speaker 3: Wait, so we got a George. Now he got an Alice?

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Speaker 4: We got an Alice?

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Speaker 3: Sounds like a what nineteen sixties sitcom or something like,

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Speaker 3: I'm like a married couple.

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Speaker 2: This is wild and that is or isn't the name

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Speaker 2: of his fiance.

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Speaker 4: It is not the name of his fiance.

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Speaker 3: I did touch that, and the brief that you sent

402
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Speaker 3: very unusual. This is a new character that has entered

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Speaker 3: the chat.

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Speaker 5: Oh dear.

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Speaker 4: So his roommate's noticing that this guy George comes into

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Speaker 4: the picture and Richard is just acting very very bizarrely.

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Speaker 4: So a week later, Richard signs out of the dorm

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Speaker 4: and he's last seen by his roommate. He's supposedly heading

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Speaker 4: to dinner at an upscale hotel and he's going to

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Speaker 4: meet George that night. He misses curfew and is never

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Speaker 4: seen again. Whoa oh weak time between George showing up

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Speaker 4: and him going missing?

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Speaker 2: Uh okay, can I I'm gonna put something out here.

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Speaker 5: Maybe it's crazy, but I'm just putting it out here. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Project MK Ultra officially has its beginnings in the year

416
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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty, like right around there, just before you know,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of ramping up, I believe officially, if he's

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Speaker 2: acting that weird calling out for Alice, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm just putting it out there.

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Speaker 3: Maybe in Alaskaalice, you know, I mean, it sounds like

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Speaker 3: some LSD's involved.

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Speaker 5: To me, that's all I'm saying.

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Speaker 4: So I think there's something to that. Right, we're talking

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Speaker 4: Cold War era, this kind of like unknown body from Germany,

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Speaker 4: like they worked intelligence together. I think that it is

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Speaker 4: a very plausible theory that maybe George was a recruiter

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Speaker 4: for some three letter agency doing things overseas during the

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Speaker 4: Cold War.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. We've talked about paper clip. Right,

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Speaker 2: That's one of the major projects that we've focused on

431
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Speaker 2: on this show before, which is the post World War

432
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Speaker 2: two bringing of scientists over and spies and all kinds

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Speaker 2: of people that the US specifically and other countries because

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Speaker 2: they did it too, thought that would be useful to

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Speaker 2: the United States military or scientific you know, establishment. In

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Speaker 2: some way, it does make me wonder because we'll never know,

437
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Speaker 2: nobody will ever know what work was being done, right, right,

438
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: and intelligence work could beat anything from gathering information on

439
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 2: somebody or a place or a program to doing some

440
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 2: other weird stuff.

441
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 4: So some things when they searched his room that they found,

442
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 4: which maybe if he went into the CIA or went

443
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 4: to do something top secret, maybe he would have brought

444
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 4: with him. They found eighty seven dollars, which is about

445
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 4: thirteen hundred dollars to day, So he was leaving money,

446
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 4: he left some person, no belongings, unmailed letters, civilian clothes,

447
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 4: a watch. Those things could also point to foul play.

448
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, I can see that.

449
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 4: Would you leave those things if you were like packing

450
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 4: up to go to Germany to join and eat? Like

451
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 4: I really don't know, I'm asking you.

452
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: Whenever their disappearance is like that and someone leaves behind

453
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: like you know, sizeable amount of money or like personal

454
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 3: items or you know, identification or things like that, it's

455
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 3: usually the first thing that is thought is that there's

456
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 3: foul play, that someone caught unaware and they left their

457
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: important stuff behind.

458
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: Well, let's give it out. What what is the plausible

459
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: reason that any of us right now, if we were

460
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: gonna just take off from where we are, right where

461
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: we live, why would we leave cash money there? Because

462
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: that's something you can use no matter where you're going,

463
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: what you're doing, right, unless you're going to a different

464
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: country where you can use the currency.

465
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, but she could exchange. It's not true amount of money.

466
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 4: Or if you want to throw people off to think

467
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 4: you were abducted and killed when you actually snuck into

468
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 4: a government agency.

469
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 5: We have we have covered too much true crime?

470
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: I think amongst us on this episode, I watch too

471
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: many episodes of things.

472
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

473
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 4: Okay, so here's another possible lead. So a few years

474
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 4: after he disappears March nineteen fifty two, a buddy of

475
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 4: his from the army says that he bumped into Richard

476
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 4: in DC in a bus station. They talked, had a conversation,

477
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 4: and he believes, you know, this was Richard because when

478
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 4: he bumped into him two years after he went missing,

479
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 4: he didn't know Richard was missing. It's the fifties. We

480
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 4: didn't have Facebook and Instagram to announce when her friends

481
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 4: are missing. He didn't report seeing Richard this day until

482
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty four, two years after he saw him, four

483
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 4: years after he went missing.

484
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: Okay, but okay, let's say that really happened. Does that

485
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: mean he just went underground because his fiance never saw

486
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: him again, right, his family never saw him again. He's

487
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 2: just working for some Yeah, okay, so if he is

488
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: working for a newly formed intelligence agency, he is doing

489
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff and he really does just cut ties.

490
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: How in the heck is he going to be anywhere

491
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: in the US walking around or do we think that's

492
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 2: a credible sighting.

493
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 4: I think that is a credible sighting, and at least

494
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 4: when I spoke to Laura about this case, Laura Norton,

495
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 4: who does the Fall Line and she's investigated this case,

496
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: she believes that's a credible sighting. There is another sighting

497
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 4: in May of nineteen sixty, so ten years after he

498
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 4: allegedly vanishes, he is seen in Melbourne, Florida. So follow

499
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: me here. An FBI agent is on an undercover assignment

500
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 4: and is drinking with the contact. The contact is with

501
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 4: a man named R. C. Mansfield. Later, the man says

502
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 4: this is a fake name. His real name is Richard Cox. Okay,

503
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 4: so he intimates he's considered dead by the army and

504
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 4: his mother. An FBI stakeout is planned nine days later,

505
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 4: but the subject never shows. So this is an incident

506
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 4: that happens with an FBI agent. So an FBI guy

507
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 4: reports this, He meets this man RC. Mansfield's are going

508
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: to do a sting. It never happens. He admits he's

509
00:28:53,040 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: Richard Cox. Never heard from again? What so r C. Mansfield? Yeah,

510
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 4: Richard Cox.

511
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: R C.

512
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 4: And Mansfield is actually where Richard Cox was born. So

513
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 4: this sounds like a good pseudonym if this was him.

514
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, wait, so is the good guy?

515
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: Let's just.

516
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 4: Good as in I think we found him.

517
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think this.

518
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, was the FBI stakeout to find.

519
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 4: Unrelated related Okay, yeah, so this is like an unrelated

520
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 4: FBI thing. This FBI source is drinking with another source

521
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 4: who is with Richard Cox.

522
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: Okay, ah, that is awfully strange. This whole thing feels

523
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: so weird I am internally now, I am leaning towards

524
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: somebody that an agency wanted just to have off the

525
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: books and a person who was ready and willing.

526
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 5: To do that.

527
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 4: So that's what I'm wondering from you guys, since you

528
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: guys cover a lot of this three letter agency top

529
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: secret things. Would you need to disappear somebody like this

530
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 4: in order to join the CIA?

531
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 3: Not to join, right, doesn't seem that way. It seems

532
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: like you would do that if someone were, you know,

533
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 3: an enemy of some stripe or someone that had compromised

534
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: information or someone that you needed to probe, not in

535
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 3: like the like our first story, the UAP kind of way,

536
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 3: like that's when you disappear people is to take them

537
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 3: to a black site and like get information out of them.

538
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: You don't do that to your pals or.

539
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 4: What if he was joining with his.

540
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: Protection, Yeah, coach, sure, Okay, I.

541
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 4: Like it because I do think he spoke a little German,

542
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 4: a little Russian.

543
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: I mean, if it was during the Cold War and

544
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: he was hanging out, he might have picked up a

545
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: little of both.

546
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, he is in his room. They found a

547
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 4: letter to his friend talking about Russia and communism. WHOA,

548
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: So maybe he maybe is by.

549
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: In which case he would have been disappeared exactly for that.

550
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: Okay, well yes, yes, Well which side is he working for?

551
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: Which is like, how do you prove that? Because he

552
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: could be a turncoat turncoat you know, like you can

553
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: take as many times as one. Well no, but really,

554
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: and if you and if the CIA or any intelligence

555
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: agency wants someone who's truly a shadow, who doesn't exist

556
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: officially anywhere on paper, who isn't getting paid officially through

557
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: any payroll, somebody who can just go and do stuff

558
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: that the agency wants done that is off the books

559
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: and maybe even illegal, somebody like this is who you get.

560
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: That's a great point. It is illegal, it is treason.

561
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 4: So yeah, they would want to I guess protect him

562
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 4: in that sense.

563
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you can get him, you know, up

564
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 2: the ladder on the other side. We just talked recently

565
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: about spies and a couple of high level spies in

566
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: the US, like one guy who was working for the

567
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: US coming for a long time, but he was actually

568
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: working for the Cuban government for decades, like he was

569
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: just reporting back to the Cuban government for decades, but

570
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: he was I can't.

571
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 5: Remember his name. We'll look that up and talk about

572
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 5: it here in a second.

573
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 3: But well, just can I just add that if you're

574
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 3: thinking about this and this is interesting to you, we

575
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 3: do have an episode or maybe it was was a

576
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: whole episode about why so many spies have been getting

577
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: caught like yeah.

578
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 4: They just did that. It was what Yeah, why are

579
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: so many?

580
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 3: I think it's an important question and maybe a question

581
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 3: that's older than you might think.

582
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Manuel Roacha, by the way, is the gentleman's name.

583
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: Forty years as a Cuban agent.

584
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, check that out.

585
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 4: So one more thing that you guys probably know a

586
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 4: bit about. We mentioned how West Point's super prestigious. You

587
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 4: can't just go a wall either, like they don't let

588
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: that happen. So there was a very large search for

589
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 4: Richard Cox as well.

590
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and everything you do is going to be

591
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: on campus there. When he's talking about going to get

592
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: a bite to eat or something, he's going to a

593
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: restaurant that's a part of an establishment on campus somewhere.

594
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: So it's not as it's like for all.

595
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: Intents and purposes, being on a military base have basically.

596
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't. You can't just walk off base and disappear.

597
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: You sign in at times, you're checked, you are, it's regimented,

598
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 4: you are training to be deployed. So yeah, there was

599
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 4: a huge search. I mean, and I guess that's a

600
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 4: question I have as well. The FBI was looking for him.

601
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 4: He was being sought by the FBI, the army. Would

602
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 4: the CIA communicate with the FBI to not search for him?

603
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.

604
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: Wait, I don't put out a the opposite of an APB,

605
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 3: like yeah, like, hey.

606
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 4: We have him, don't waste your okay.

607
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: Don't waste your resources.

608
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like like he's with us, don't Because they

609
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 4: they did. He was declared dead in nineteen fifty seven,

610
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 4: and there was an in tense search for this A

611
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: Wall cadet, because again, he was the only West Point

612
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 4: cadet to go missing from West Point ever.

613
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a that's nuts. So seven years until he

614
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: was declared dead, did the did intelligence services or the

615
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: army ever stop looking for him or do they still

616
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: look for him today?

617
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 4: I don't. I think once you're declared dead, they don't

618
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 4: look for you.

619
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 3: Okay, I can't.

620
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 4: I can't confirm that. But at least with most missing

621
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 4: persons cases, in those kinds of cases, when you declare

622
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 4: someone dead, the case is closed. I don't know how

623
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 4: the military does it. Heard, Oh yeah, okay, here we

624
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 4: go nineteen seventy six, After searching Europe and North America,

625
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 4: the case is officially closed by the Department of the Army.

626
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy six. Wow, so they left that open just

627
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: in the like in the case that he is found

628
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: somewhere doing something either he shouldn't be doing, or that

629
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: only a few, you know, key individuals know he's doing.

630
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 4: So fast forward. In nineteen ninety six, a book comes

631
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 4: out called Oblivion, and it cites a CIA operative as

632
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: its source who claims that Richard Cox did work in

633
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 4: the intelligence field in Europe during the Cold war, and

634
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 4: it says he lived there until the nineteen nineties before

635
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 4: dying of cancer in Maryland.

636
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: Oh wow, wait, so we can't Okay, so went and

637
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 2: did all that stuff, then he came back. Well, just

638
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: I guess to be with family that he disowned, and I.

639
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 4: Guess, like I have so many questions, like where did

640
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 4: the fiance go?

641
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 3: Like what if I might take a just a momentary

642
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 3: diversion from this story and just ask, have you heard

643
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 3: this notion that Jim Morrison is alive and living in

644
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 3: upstate New York and has been for you know, the

645
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 3: duration of his life since he faked his own death.

646
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: There's some document tree out that has like relatively compelling

647
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 3: proof of this.

648
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's with Paul McCartney when he faked his death.

649
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 3: So we got a little thousands of.

650
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 4: Young women getting killed because he was dead. Yeah.

651
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 3: No, I really want to see whatever this documentary is

652
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 3: because I just I would, you know, as a pop

653
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 3: culture nerd and as like a you know, music nerd,

654
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 3: and also just a conspiracy nerd, I would love to

655
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: find proof positive that somebody successfully, somebody that public successfully

656
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 3: did a thing like that.

657
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 4: It would just be years ago, years ago. I interviewed

658
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 4: this woman, Elizabeth Greenwood, and she wrote a book about

659
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 4: faking your own death because she was like, I need

660
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 4: to know if this is possible.

661
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 3: We did. We talked to her as well, didn't we met?

662
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 3: What was the book called Ben's a Big Thing.

663
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's called Yes.

664
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 3: A Million Percent. I don't know if we spoke to her,

665
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: but Ben Ben loves that book and talks about it

666
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: all the time.

667
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 4: Great, So then your listeners will absolutely know how nearly

668
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 4: impossible it is to disappear yourself, especially these days. Maybe

669
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: nineteen fifties not so much, but when you have the

670
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: entire military government agency searching for you across continents.

671
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: Don't like your chances.

672
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 4: No, no. But one of the theories too, is that

673
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 4: he disappeared himself because there were some reports that he

674
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 4: was potentially gay and he was potentially seeing men secretively

675
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 4: and kind of. When he came back from spring break,

676
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 4: he realized he didn't want to be with his fiance.

677
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 3: And spring break does it every time.

678
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 4: Winter break, spring break, break, whatever. That is one of

679
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 4: the theories that you know, he went a wall to

680
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 4: go live a different life.

681
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 3: Totally.

682
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: I can okay, I can see that simply because of

683
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: the year that this was taking place in the military,

684
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: all of these things that that life, if that is

685
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: your identity and your life and you're stuck in all

686
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: of those, you know, different mechanisms that are controlling your life,

687
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: one of the only ways out is to disappear, like

688
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: really and truly, because you could probably get in trouble

689
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: at that time for that stuff.

690
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 3: Not to be super heavy or anything. But my father,

691
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 3: who was born in nineteen thirty seven and would have

692
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 3: been in the military around the same time, after he

693
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: passed away, we found out that he was secretly gay,

694
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 3: and this was a secret that he had had to whatever,

695
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 3: choose to live with, choose to move past, whatever. But

696
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: the reality of it is he was not living his

697
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 3: truth and went on to you know, work in Methodist

698
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: churches as a choir director. He was from the opera

699
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 3: world after his military time and working on a military base,

700
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 3: et cetera. But I'm just saying I understand very personally

701
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 3: that terrifying thing to have to make you know, those

702
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: in those days, it just was not something that was okay,

703
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 3: and it absolutely could have been the kind of thing

704
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 3: that would lead someone who had the ability maybe more

705
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: so than someone like my dad to do.

706
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, wow. Wow, that's really that's an incredible story.

707
00:38:58,880 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

708
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think, you know, especially all of

709
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 4: us being born in the modern era, I think it's

710
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 4: also really difficult to fathom what life was like in

711
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 4: the fifties or someone who's gay. We're not even talking

712
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 4: about the eighties, you know, it's like the nineteen fifties. Yeah,

713
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 4: it was. Was it a did you just mention that

714
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: it was a crime.

715
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 3: It wasn't a crime per se, but it was just

716
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 3: totally even in like you know, the opera community in

717
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: New York City, you know, which my dad was a

718
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: part of, it just was like either an open secret,

719
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: like I think maybe one one person folks might think

720
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 3: of as Leonard Bernstein, who you know, was as openly

721
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 3: gay as you could be in a world like that,

722
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 3: but even he had to be very very careful about it,

723
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: and you know, his wife kind of knew and allowed

724
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: him to live that part of his life. But my

725
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 3: dad wasn't as famous as Leonard Bernstein, so you know, anyway,

726
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 3: it's just yeah, it was absolutely not a crime per se,

727
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: but it was it could.

728
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 4: Have been the kind of thing through don't don't tell, right.

729
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: It's the kind of thing that could have ruined your career.

730
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: It's the kind of thing that could have ruined not

731
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 3: to mention, if you're in the military for all intents

732
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 3: and purposes, it is a crime. It's an absolute life ruiner,

733
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 3: for sure.

734
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I just did a quick search about it.

735
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 4: In the fifties, particularly in the military, and it says actually,

736
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 4: fueled by the Cold War, they actively discriminated and purged

737
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 4: LGBTQ plus individuals in the military, and this was known

738
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 4: as the lavender scare very specifically the Cold War.

739
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 3: Do you recall that term?

740
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: Ugh, yeah, Yeah, the Cold War caught up pretty much

741
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 2: anybody that was not in this cookie cutter shape of

742
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: what the military wanted, and anybody that didn't fit in

743
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 2: that shape, we are suspect of you because you could

744
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: be unhappy with the way our cookie cutter is shaped.

745
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 5: Which makes sense, which.

746
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: Is ironic considering we were meant to be the great

747
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 3: liberators of you know, the Jews under the Nazi regime,

748
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 3: who absolutely had that same kind of mentality about purging

749
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 3: queer people, about purging Jewish people, about pershing Romani people,

750
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 3: you know, and then we absolutely adopted pretty much a

751
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: maybe lighter but very similar approach to calling out the

752
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 3: unwonted element.

753
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely, then we got past it now in h.

754
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 4: We're post post.

755
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: Who was it that I was talking to recently, Not

756
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 3: to get off the topic too much, but I know

757
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 3: it was. It was my friend John Cameron Mitchell, who's

758
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: the guy that created Hedwig and the Angry Inch, And

759
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 3: he's just he's we've done some podcasting together and he's

760
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 3: a lovely person. And he came to Atlanta and I was

761
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: doing a talk and he mentioned the idea that he

762
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 3: came from a military background and that it was the

763
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 3: most in the I guess the seventies when he was

764
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: in it, it was the most inclusive situation he'd ever

765
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 3: been a part of, in that the generals, even when

766
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: they were told to get rid of gay and trans people,

767
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: they slow rolled it because it just didn't make sense,

768
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: what's the word operationally to have that kind of you know,

769
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 3: us versus them, Like if you're in, you're in. So

770
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: it would seem based on John, that the attitude within

771
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 3: the military has definitely actually changed.

772
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 4: Which you're correct there. My partner who Matt has met,

773
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 4: he's a veteran, and he said, you know, when he

774
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 4: sees all these like new Trump Trumpian, you know, kicking

775
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: out trans people from the military, he was like, anyone

776
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 4: actually serving does not feel that way, Like anyone currently

777
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 4: serving actually loves having women in the military. He said,

778
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 4: those units are better regimented, like better at at their jobs.

779
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 4: So it's so fascinating. Yeah, not to get too off topic,

780
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 4: but none.

781
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: I just think it's worth mentioning is the way things

782
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 3: have changed, and there are some positive changes in ideology,

783
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: even in a place that I was very surprised that

784
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 3: you might find that, you know it which military.

785
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 4: So anyway, absolutely so Richard Cox, I don't know, Uh,

786
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 4: maybe George was his lover and they ran away together.

787
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 4: I feel like I lean more towards he went into

788
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 4: some agency.

789
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: I feel like Richard and George is like the best

790
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 2: version of this story. That's the happiest outcome.

791
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 4: That I think so too.

792
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: The scariest one is that he's a shadow doing stuff

793
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: for the for the intelligence agencies that we never knew about.

794
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 3: Did I miss who Alice is?

795
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 4: No, we don't know who Alice is?

796
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, just a.

797
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 4: Night terror and exactly we unclear I know in our

798
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 4: episode Laura, Laura mentions a couple hypotheses. So if y'all

799
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 4: want to listen to.

800
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 3: That, absolutely always good to have some homework. I mean

801
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 3: that for folks at home to listen to if you

802
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: want to find out more about either of these stories.

803
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 3: I think we've got some great resources.

804
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, Laura, I think read oblivion. So she's she's really

805
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 4: up on all the theories around Richard Cox. And like

806
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 4: I said, Payne did high strange doctor Travis Walton exactly.

807
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 3: Matt. Can I just applauge that you your self control

808
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 3: for not mentioning Elder scrolls on the second mention of

809
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: oblivion here, I just want to say, well done, sir.

810
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 5: I have a map of it in my basement.

811
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: Do you gifted me a map of l my guest

812
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 3: room which is up there with pride?

813
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 2: Sorry, why don't be sorry.

814
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 5: It's an amazing thing.

815
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: I love it. It gives me joy. It makes me

816
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: think of you every time I look at it.

817
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: Well, well, thanks, buddy, it gives me joy. On you

818
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: have it really quickly, Maggie, before we let you go,

819
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 2: if we if we step away from up in Vanish

820
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: Weekly and we think about your work on wrongful conviction.

821
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: And just as you're watching the news, as you're seeing

822
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: changes occurring right now, is there anything we should be

823
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: looking at or thinking about when it comes to individuals

824
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: either being incarcerated or individuals being you know, shipped out

825
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: of the country and maybe to a prison in Venezuela

826
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: or somewhere else. What should we be thinking about right now?

827
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think all of those things. I think one

828
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 4: of the things that I'm really thinking about is when

829
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 4: we're talking about wars overseas, we feel like they don't

830
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 4: impact us at home, and we are currently embroiled in

831
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 4: many situation overseas, But a lot of the technology that

832
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 4: we use over there to fight our quote enemies civilians,

833
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 4: we use here on our own people or we will

834
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 4: be using. So cop Cities is something I'm thinking about

835
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 4: a lot. And yeah, you guys an episode on Cop City.

836
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 3: We talked about it in news episodes, and we're talking

837
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 3: about it as a very local, regional thing and a

838
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: cause here in the Atlanta area, also pertaining to deforestation

839
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 3: and just absolutely in Atlanta.

840
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean, just the the technology is I

841
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 4: guess what I really want is what I'm trying to

842
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 4: say is the technologies that we are using and testing

843
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 4: overseas on civilian populations, on our quote enemies. These drones

844
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 4: that we saw that can just go into a building

845
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 4: and shoot people up. You don't need humans there. We

846
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 4: have robot dogs. Those are all coming here. And if

847
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 4: people don't think that our police will use those on us,

848
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 4: If people don't think that, you know, people with green cards,

849
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 4: you know, are now being deported, legal legal permanent residents

850
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 4: are being deported. If you don't think that can happen

851
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 4: to you, a citizen or.

852
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: Speaking out for speaking out against a regime.

853
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 4: So I think that's what I want people to think about.

854
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 4: Like when we're like, oh it's overseas that it doesn't matter,

855
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 4: Oh it's just happening to the brown people or the

856
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 4: green card holders, it will come for you. They test

857
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 4: it first to see what they can get away with.

858
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 4: And that's what I want people to think about. I

859
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 4: want you to go protest your cop cities. I want

860
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 4: you to protest all of these people being deported and

861
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 4: we don't even know who they are or what they

862
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 4: do it.

863
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we recently did an episode on the

864
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: disposition matrix that is actually I want to say something

865
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: that we had a little off in conversation with your

866
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: partner about, which is just how specifically the Obama administration

867
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: and every administration after that, and then into the before

868
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: the Bush administration, how they look at an individual person

869
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: and categorize them as leaning towards a terrorist organization or

870
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 2: being a member of a terrorist organization, or you know,

871
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: vulnerable to being influenced or that kind of thing, and

872
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: then how that system could be taken and used to

873
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: look at American citizens. And it feels pretty naive to

874
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 2: think that there isn't something like that, some kind of

875
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 2: way at looking at all of the people we know

876
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: as individuals, all the things we search, all the conversations

877
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 2: we have with the metadata, I mean, because we know

878
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: all that stuff's getting picked up now days with stellar

879
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: wind and all of these things.

880
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 4: Like it's well, that's a great example twenty years ago

881
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 4: when what was it the Patriot Act, right, and we

882
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 4: think it's just to surveil terror We're just surveiling terrorists,

883
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 4: just those brown guys overseas. We're all being surveiled now, right,

884
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 4: twenty years ago it was just for the bad guys.

885
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 4: Now it's all of us, every single one of us.

886
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 4: So for people to think that they're not going to

887
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 4: just start snatching you up because something you posted on Twitter,

888
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 4: that's that's incredibly naive and absolute.

889
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 3: And maybe this is naive or a little on the nose,

890
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 3: but it just it makes me think of this incredible

891
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 3: quote from a German pastor named Martin Emohler. I believe

892
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 3: this is displayed at the National Holocaust Museum, and it's First,

893
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 3: they came for the socialists, and I did not speak

894
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 3: out because I was not a socialist. Then they came

895
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 3: for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out

896
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 3: because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came

897
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 3: for the Jews, and I did not speak out because

898
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 3: I was not a Jew. Then they came from me,

899
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 3: and there was no one left to.

900
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 4: Speak for me exactly.

901
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 3: So coming all kind of makes me tear up a

902
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 3: little bit, y'all. It's it's heavy. I'm sorry it.

903
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 4: Is, and it's sad because it's happened, it's already happened,

904
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 4: like and it's just happening again, and just it's just

905
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 4: a different form. This time. It's in a technology form,

906
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 4: you know, whereas last time it was like you know,

907
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 4: I'm talking about World War Two. It was like this

908
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: big military oc Gristapo exactly. Now it's in digital form.

909
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 2: Yes, well, guys on that. Sorry, sorry, this very serious

910
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: important stuff, and it is it is worth your time

911
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: to think about, right, and maybe have a conversation with

912
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: somebody you care about about this thing. And and also, hey,

913
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: listen to some podcasts that aren't specifically about that stuff

914
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: or else all of us are going to go nuts.

915
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: So Maggie, tell us where people should go to hear

916
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: your shows, specifically Up and Vanish Weekly, and uh, just

917
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: learn more about what.

918
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 5: You're up to.

919
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could find me on all platforms, Maggie Freeling,

920
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 4: and definitely search Up and Vanish Weekly. Follow it, rate it.

921
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 4: It's really exciting. We're doing a lot of fun new

922
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 4: stuff as the show progresses.

923
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 2: I know a spoiler alert. I'm on at least one

924
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 2: of those episodes.

925
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, you are too, you are You're on the pin train, Noel,

926
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 4: do you want to come on? Please come on?

927
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 3: Put me in coach. I'm always down. Nobody asks me

928
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: to be on stuff because I don't. I don't ask

929
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 3: to be on stuff, but just let this be known.

930
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 3: I'm always down to be on anything that you do,

931
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 3: Maggie for sure.

932
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean, any any strange case you want

933
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 4: to talk about. I mean we also have a list

934
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 4: of cases we could pitch you some or whatever.

935
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: Well, Maggie, I'm super down to be on anything that

936
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 3: you are up to and would be honored. And let's uh,

937
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 3: what do they say, Let's let's let's talk offline. We'll

938
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 3: figure something out. But thank you so much for now

939
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 3: for joining us today to talk about these cases and

940
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 3: talk about all the cool stuff that you're working on.

941
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 4: Thank you, guys. I have been a huge fan forever.

942
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 4: I listened weekly, Like I knew what your podcast was

943
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 4: last week, I.

944
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 3: Didn't even know what it was.

945
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: I know's that means a ton, though, Maggie, because we're

946
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: going really of everything you do.

947
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 4: No, you guys are so fun and smart, and I

948
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 4: know your listeners are too, so I hope there is

949
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 4: some crossover, y'all. Please come submit cases to us, listen

950
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 4: to us. We love this this little pod family here.

951
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: Hey, and if you want to reach out and contact us,

952
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: you can find us all over the internet, right, Noel.

953
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you sure can. You can find us at the

954
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 3: handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist on Facebook with our

955
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy. On x FKA

956
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 3: Twitter and they're having some troubles over there here and

957
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: on YouTube where we have video CODs at Galore for

958
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 3: your perusing enjoyment. On Instagram and TikTok, who are also

959
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 3: having some trouble. We are the Spiracy Stuff Show. But wait,

960
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 3: there's more.

961
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 2: There's no trouble besides the trouble you're about to create

962
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: at one eight three three STDWYTK that's our voicemail system.

963
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: When you call in, you've got three minutes, give yourself

964
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know if we can

965
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: use your name and message on the air. If you

966
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: got more to say than can fit in three minutes,

967
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 2: maybe you want to send us an attachment, maybe a

968
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: couple images of your kiddykat anything, Send us a good

969
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 2: old fashioned email.

970
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 3: We are inspiracy atiheartradio dot com.

971
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

972
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

973
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your face favorite shows.