Speaker 1: Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for and Or season two,
Speaker 1: the finale, the entire series, plus lots of other Star Wars.
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're going to be discussed.
Speaker 2: So just be warned.
Speaker 3: Oh my name is Jas Sconcepcio an I'm Mersey and
Speaker 3: I and welcome back to Extra Vision of the podcast
Speaker 3: where we do you do your favorite shows, movies, comics
Speaker 3: of pop culture company from iHeart Podcast, where we'll bring
Speaker 3: you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday,
Speaker 3: plus news.
Speaker 4: In this episode, oh baby, we've been waiting for it.
Speaker 4: We're calling the Alliance back to Avin to discuss the
Speaker 4: final three episodes. And well, I think at this point
Speaker 4: we can just officially call the greatest Star Wars property
Speaker 4: of old time.
Speaker 5: It's and Or and guess we'll sadly a Boo is
Speaker 5: off planet today, so we'll not be joining us, but
Speaker 5: we have called in the most important guest that we
Speaker 5: could have to make sure we're talking about and Or
Speaker 5: in a sensible and serious Star Wars forward. Wait, it's
Speaker 5: h from Escape Hatch.
Speaker 2: Welcome, what's happening And.
Speaker 5: Of course we will also have Joel Monique, Mommer's daughter's
Speaker 5: Weddings after party. Absolutely happy to have you guys here,
Speaker 5: very excited to talk about this absolutely astonishing show.
Speaker 2: Astonishing, Okay, let's get it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is an upgrade from coming to talk about
Speaker 6: doing prophecy. That's what works. It is perfect.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's perfect.
Speaker 1: So h your your overall thoughts on Indoor season too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and even looking at the entire show, I just want
Speaker 1: to say, the thing that struck me when we got
Speaker 1: to the finale and the last shot of this and
Speaker 1: we see where Bis has landed up and who she
Speaker 1: is holding. I was crying, screaming, laughing, just I was
Speaker 1: so the amount of relief and love that I felt
Speaker 1: in that moment. And to me, this is the genius.
Speaker 1: Tony flipped the script on Rogue one.
Speaker 6: Everyone always says, man, it's depressing, everyone dies, It's this
Speaker 6: downer of a story, and he turned the entire thing around.
Speaker 6: It's about love, it's about life, it's about hope, and
Speaker 6: it's about rebirth.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Unbelievable to transform that, and so that was the biggest
Speaker 6: takeaway from me.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So I'm so excited to talk to you guys a
Speaker 5: little bit more about the baby because there's been a
Speaker 5: lot of Baby discourse in the I'm very excited.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about who are MVP of this season is
Speaker 1: before we really get into the.
Speaker 7: Meat of the baby.
Speaker 1: A lot of great candidates on the on the imperial
Speaker 1: side and on the rebels side, and the kind of
Speaker 1: shades in between. Joel your MVP for and or season two?
Speaker 1: And I guess really for.
Speaker 7: And series in always it's Luthan real. It is nobody
Speaker 7: like to come in and die series to be such
Speaker 7: a legendary, Like we thought Rogue one was the kickoff,
Speaker 7: but Luthen is the kickoff. And that is like a
Speaker 7: brain altering way to watch this movie to honor, like
Speaker 7: it's done for everybody, but it's also kind of just
Speaker 7: done for Luthen, like he is stellar and for that
Speaker 7: Episode ten is maybe one of my favorite things ever written.
Speaker 7: It's up there with like was it episode six of
Speaker 7: Watchmen where they go back into her granites was the top?
Speaker 7: It's up there with that, Like I just think the
Speaker 7: devotion what we get with him and Claia, the I mean,
Speaker 7: my god, this moment where he's just staying before he
Speaker 7: makes the transition into rebel and he's just make it stop,
Speaker 7: make it stop. Like you understand from whence this passion
Speaker 7: comes and then the unraveling of him. We talked about
Speaker 7: how like coming into season two, there's no part of
Speaker 7: you that would consider like, oh, Luthen's not fully prepared
Speaker 7: and aware. He's always aware, but like he faltered at times,
Speaker 7: like it was almost Jesus allegory of like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 7: I'm doubting in the the eleventh hour that we can
Speaker 7: do this. It's so scary. And for him to kill
Speaker 7: someone that we ultimately like who we know sacrifice and
Speaker 7: lived by the same types of rules with Luthen, like
Speaker 7: Iver stepped out of bounds, like held it down in
Speaker 7: very stressful situations, and then our guy just gets murked
Speaker 7: on a bench and I still like after that, yeah,
Speaker 7: still respect his choice, Like that's crazy.
Speaker 5: I think that is why Luthin is such a brilliant character,
Speaker 5: and what Tony Gilroy does so well is Luthin is
Speaker 5: almost he is almost like the character who is the show,
Speaker 5: because the truth is he does terrible things, he does
Speaker 5: complex things, he does the things he has to do.
Speaker 5: But Tony Gilroy is not interested in passing some judgment
Speaker 5: on him. He is just interested in presenting part of
Speaker 5: what the rebellion needs. And I think as well, the
Speaker 5: reason that Luthern's fate is like so incredibly moving is
Speaker 5: he knows, you know, his speech that made everyone fall
Speaker 5: in love with him for the first time, he says,
Speaker 5: I'm never going to get to see what we're doing
Speaker 5: this for, Like he knows he's going to die in
Speaker 5: the darkness, he's never going to get the credit, and
Speaker 5: yet we still.
Speaker 2: Got to sunrise.
Speaker 6: I'll never see.
Speaker 5: Exactly and we still all get these moments, these hopeful moments,
Speaker 5: like when he finally hears from Lonnie what the real
Speaker 5: plan has been of the energy and he understands that
Speaker 5: in that moment, Okay, the super weapon, this is why
Speaker 5: we've been doing it, Like he has to make that
Speaker 5: decision in that second of like, this is the thing
Speaker 5: we're going to risk it all for. I think that's incredible.
Speaker 1: And yeah, Joe, does anyone have anybody else other than I.
Speaker 5: Could just all talk about Luther? My name is not Minus,
Speaker 5: but hey, choose yours. Who's your MVP?
Speaker 6: Uh So this is slightly uh a left field of it,
Speaker 6: But for me, I just want to call out Luke Hole,
Speaker 6: the production designer.
Speaker 5: I love.
Speaker 6: The world that he created, whether it's Gorman right, or
Speaker 6: whether it's Ferricks in season one, or all the the
Speaker 6: stuff on Chorus on it, but particularly Gorman for me, unbelievable.
Speaker 6: Episode eight I think is the most transcendent of the
Speaker 6: season for me. If for me it's eight and season
Speaker 6: one episode ten one way out right with a sunless
Speaker 6: space at the end, that notion of how they created
Speaker 6: something so practically beautiful and connected that the artists could
Speaker 6: move through and do their performances that had such a
Speaker 6: strong base in the canon, and as well as continuing
Speaker 6: to grow from that and not be constrained by that.
Speaker 6: It's just an amazing achievement of what he did, and
Speaker 6: that idea of having one person's vision carried through the
Speaker 6: entire show amazing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, agreed, Mike. Going back to character wise, my would
Speaker 5: mine would be Claia. I think Claire is the underdog
Speaker 5: for me. I think she's always been an interesting character,
Speaker 5: but I loved getting to see the way that she
Speaker 5: moved through this season. I think that in the final
Speaker 5: moments of this season also, she is like the only
Speaker 5: person who could do what needed to be done, which
Speaker 5: was kill Lutheran and make sure that his sacrifice wasn't
Speaker 5: in Vain. I think that episode is unbelievable, and I
Speaker 5: think that we get to see someone who is as
Speaker 5: dedicated as Luthen but is also more emotionally connected to
Speaker 5: the person that she has to take out of this
Speaker 5: world because he raised her. And I personally am a
Speaker 5: big fan of the Clayer is and Or sister theories.
Speaker 5: I think that's really great and I kind of love that,
Speaker 5: as Tony has said in interviews, like she doesn't get
Speaker 5: any closure, We're not going to get to find out
Speaker 5: what else is going on with her. But I kind
Speaker 5: of like how loose it is because the reality is,
Speaker 5: you know, even in something like Star Wars, but with
Speaker 5: and Or, we are talking about a version of reality.
Speaker 5: You wouldn't just randomly find out that that was your
Speaker 5: long lost sister. You know, there would be ye, there's
Speaker 5: no more in space exactly.
Speaker 6: I'm anti that theory though, like I, it's the same
Speaker 6: as Ray, like, she doesn't have to be you know,
Speaker 6: she doesn't have to be Claya and Or or whatever
Speaker 6: their name was before that became. And the idea that
Speaker 6: Cassia never knows what happened to his sister and he
Speaker 6: is always trying to fill that gap with other people
Speaker 6: and rescuing people and building his family at all times.
Speaker 6: And so I love the fact that Tony's like, we
Speaker 6: are not going to make that that.
Speaker 5: I can say that a lot of people.
Speaker 7: I say I respect that a lot because I feel
Speaker 7: the same way about Rayla, Like I think it really
Speaker 7: destroys her to bring her into the fold. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 7: it's really cool that she's.
Speaker 5: Just Yeah, nobody needed race Skywalker.
Speaker 7: Like why the andor and clear are like brother and
Speaker 7: sister works for me for a couple of reasons. One,
Speaker 7: there's the holes they leave us for this are really beautiful.
Speaker 7: You do not know the little girl's name when she
Speaker 7: meets Luthen, but you do get her name. Actor is
Speaker 7: Clia and her sister's name is Carrie. Lufing goes from
Speaker 7: uh well captain. It starts with an L like reality
Speaker 7: is is a like a small adjustment to his actual name.
Speaker 7: So we see in this like name changing situation, that
Speaker 7: they're the same. On top of that, I really think
Speaker 7: like there's something to be said about the way they
Speaker 7: handle things. One of the main things we get from Cassians.
Speaker 7: He's a guy who hides things a lot, like he
Speaker 7: from the shower, he pulls down the gun and stuff.
Speaker 7: The very first thing we see Claiya do when she
Speaker 7: gets back to the safe house and start pulling things
Speaker 7: out of the wall, the like connections.
Speaker 2: Country for all Men call back with.
Speaker 7: And I think like these What really works for me
Speaker 7: is like Star Wars starts with two siblings who don't
Speaker 7: know who they are, fighting the rebellion in their own
Speaker 7: ways and coming together save the galaxy. This just feels
Speaker 7: like such a great mirror to that without destroying the
Speaker 7: authenticity and impact of They'll never know it, they don't
Speaker 7: need to know it at all. I think that their
Speaker 7: story holds up and it's great. But us getting to
Speaker 7: know and see, like my heart like and the fact
Speaker 7: that Luvin sort of at different ages but like raised them,
Speaker 7: brought them into this foldings.
Speaker 5: Oh, I love that. I love that take look at
Speaker 5: us also as well. I would say, like I like,
Speaker 5: I like Tony Gilroy is never not going to be
Speaker 5: Tony Gilroy. He's out here and he's going to be
Speaker 5: making his broad statements about history and about the wildness
Speaker 5: of the galaxy. He was never going to come in
Speaker 5: and be like, yeah, their siblings. But I kind of
Speaker 5: love that. Just like any other Star Wars project or
Speaker 5: Dune project or any sci fi project, people are going
Speaker 5: to have their theories, They're going to have their kind
Speaker 5: of conversations. And that was one that I thought was
Speaker 5: really interesting because I had not conceived it, but I
Speaker 5: love hearing other people kind of talking about why it worked.
Speaker 5: And when Joel broke it down like that, I was like, well,
Speaker 5: I just think that's a lovely echo, even if it's
Speaker 5: not about yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: They're from the same community.
Speaker 7: M M.
Speaker 5: There is a family nature that and they were both
Speaker 5: raised by radicals in their own way as well. With
Speaker 5: my Okay, Jason, who's your MVP.
Speaker 1: My MVP is I'll do a haircut on some of
Speaker 1: what we've heard, and myv is the relationship between Claya
Speaker 1: and Ah. I think that Claia gave him something to
Speaker 1: live for and m a reason to fight, and kind
Speaker 1: of the first was, in a real way, the first
Speaker 1: member of his army that he had assembled, the first
Speaker 1: member of the of the rebellion, and he gave her
Speaker 1: the way to do it like she was as you
Speaker 1: would expect and as we saw in these episodes, like
Speaker 1: full of rage, full of anger, wanting to lash out
Speaker 1: at the Empire in an almost suicidal way, and he
Speaker 1: says to her that thing that really that line that
Speaker 1: really sticks with me, which is she asked, like, when
Speaker 1: do we start fighting back? And he says, we fight
Speaker 1: to win. That means we lose, and we lose, and
Speaker 1: we lose and we lose until already and that patience
Speaker 1: is how the rebellion was built. She's the only one
Speaker 1: I think who would have been one hundred percent guaranteed
Speaker 1: to follow through and what needed to be done, which
Speaker 1: is Peter Luthen dies fall into the Empire's hands. I
Speaker 1: think everybody else, even Cassie, and for as ruthless as
Speaker 1: he is, would have launched some sort of crazy rescue rescue.
Speaker 5: He can't help it. He's it's got a little bit
Speaker 5: too much hot.
Speaker 2: That's why I was.
Speaker 1: It was only Claya, I think, who could see it through,
Speaker 1: and the two of them together alone, either one of them.
Speaker 2: Would not have been as effective.
Speaker 1: The idea that they needed to stay for as long
Speaker 1: as they did paid off obviously in the in the
Speaker 1: Intel that led to the destruction of the Death Star,
Speaker 1: but without each other it would have all fallen apart.
Speaker 1: We saw as as Joel pointed out Luthen cracking already
Speaker 1: like under the pressure, and Claya literally.
Speaker 5: You know, getting a hands bloody pulling out the the bug.
Speaker 5: You know, there's no way Lutheran could have done that,
Speaker 5: like they were what a scene. That was such an
Speaker 5: unbelievable scene. Also like the literal kind of representation of
Speaker 5: like Mon doesn't know the way that Hans have to
Speaker 5: get due and in that room it is like the
Speaker 5: literal like kind of representation of that.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I also just think as well, like about Claya, is
Speaker 5: I that episode where she has to kill Luthen and
Speaker 5: make sure it's done, we also see that she is
Speaker 5: she has been hidden in this business, hidden in plain sight.
Speaker 5: She's always stressed at people, she's always pissed off. But
Speaker 5: we also see that, Yeah, part of the reason for
Speaker 5: that is she can fucking handle herself, Like she takes
Speaker 5: out all of those stormtroopers. She is ready to fight,
Speaker 5: but she has had to be playing this part and
Speaker 5: I think that is also such an interesting part of
Speaker 5: her character. And yeah, I love Claya And those were
Speaker 5: all great, and we also see what.
Speaker 7: Before we move off of those two things, One we
Speaker 7: get to see how Clea teaches Luthan, and I found
Speaker 7: that so that the bartering scene was tied your shout
Speaker 7: out to the little girl. She's such a great actress.
Speaker 7: She really killed that role. And I think like understanding
Speaker 7: that Luvin's first disguise is actually taught to him by
Speaker 7: Claia and not the other way around. Like what he
Speaker 7: is good at is the span as the patient seeing
Speaker 7: the big picture, which she is great at is those
Speaker 7: interpersonal reactions, and he learns that from her because he
Speaker 7: from what we see of him with his troops like
Speaker 7: not great checking in personality. It doesn't seem like things
Speaker 7: are going well socially, and so I really feel like
Speaker 7: we get to that side of Claya as well. And
Speaker 7: and the fact that so much of Luthan is her,
Speaker 7: I was like, that's amazing. I also just really want
Speaker 7: to call out I think Luthen his song makes him
Speaker 7: ess here at BB Luthan of Coraissant is one of
Speaker 7: the most beautiful haunting songs, and we get the starts
Speaker 7: of it when Claya is in the apartment by herself,
Speaker 7: just staring out the window. It is gorgeous and dark
Speaker 7: and like lovely and inspiring and really encapsulates this character
Speaker 7: that we've gotten to know, and I think the best
Speaker 7: Star Wars characters get amazing songs. This is an amazing song.
Speaker 6: M Can we just shout in terms of per Can
Speaker 6: we just say Lonnie like Lottie?
Speaker 2: I want to say that.
Speaker 1: I love Huan and he is obviously the top three
Speaker 1: most important figures in the Rebellion ever historical and I
Speaker 1: am not one to argue with his decisions being surrounded
Speaker 1: by danger.
Speaker 5: And you're not like saying you would have done it differently.
Speaker 2: You don't know, did deserve better?
Speaker 8: He did?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, he absolutely deserved better.
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure what decisions could have been made
Speaker 1: previous to his ignominious gut shot on a park bench,
Speaker 1: anonymous death on a park bench, but it feels like
Speaker 1: there must have been something that either party, Luthen or
Speaker 1: Lonnie could have done just make the outcome a little better,
Speaker 1: because that guy literally gave his life to get the
Speaker 1: death start Intels and to go out like that, and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure his family is in a prison
Speaker 1: like three floors up from Dedra.
Speaker 2: It's I feel bad for that.
Speaker 5: I think it's the Luthan I got just part of
Speaker 5: the the kind of unraveling of Lutheran is in that moment,
Speaker 5: he's so scared and he's like, I don't have time
Speaker 5: to deal with this, like we know what the issue is.
Speaker 5: But no, I mean, they absolutely could have just sent
Speaker 5: him to a like beach planet with his family like
Speaker 5: there was. I definitely believe there's a version where Lonnie
Speaker 5: could have existed, but I think that the set up
Speaker 5: very clearly.
Speaker 1: You can tell from that exchange that at some point
Speaker 1: in the past Luthen had said, we'll get you off planet,
Speaker 1: write you and your family off planet, and it just
Speaker 1: became too late.
Speaker 5: They were.
Speaker 6: They were on Lutheran within an hour of that conversation.
Speaker 5: It was so, yeah, it's too late, But yeah, I'm
Speaker 5: glad he got out.
Speaker 6: He was also he was isolated though right, like he
Speaker 6: didn't have to say, well, I'll take you to Yavin,
Speaker 6: like he could have let Lonnie take his chances and
Speaker 6: maybe he gets out. But if he doesn't get out,
Speaker 6: he could only burn Luthen.
Speaker 7: And Lonnie is not going to stand up if we
Speaker 7: don't have a collapse immediately with.
Speaker 5: Funny guy.
Speaker 1: I'm glad, yes, with respect because he took on immense stager.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this the decision to not tell
Speaker 1: Luthen right away that I'm across I'm across Dedra's computer
Speaker 1: like for a year.
Speaker 5: This argument is the reason he dies because.
Speaker 1: His argument is, well, Luthen, you would have pushed me
Speaker 1: to like scrape all this intel, and then that would
Speaker 1: have been blown up way earlier. Doing it my way,
Speaker 1: I was able to get this like last little drip
Speaker 1: of intel that tells us there. Maybe he's right about that,
Speaker 1: But what is your your thoughts on that? Should he
Speaker 1: have told lu Because I agree with you, Rosie, this
Speaker 1: is kind of why he's dead.
Speaker 5: I think if he'd have told Luthen, you know, two
Speaker 5: weeks prior. I think that there's some other version of
Speaker 5: this where Lonnie decides it's worth it to tell Lutheran.
Speaker 5: But I also think that with the things that going
Speaker 5: the way they are on Gorman and our understanding of
Speaker 5: how the empire is working at this point, and the
Speaker 5: push to finish the Death Star, I also do think
Speaker 5: there is a reading of this where this is the
Speaker 5: moment he tells Luthen, because this is the moment he
Speaker 5: finally puts everything together and understands what's going on. So
Speaker 5: I don't know if there is an earlier time that
Speaker 5: he can present this information without Luthen just saying, oh yeah,
Speaker 5: show me how to do it and then shooting him
Speaker 5: in the head. You know, that's kind of the danger
Speaker 5: with Luthen.
Speaker 6: To me, the big thing here is one of the
Speaker 6: massive questions of this show the entire time for two years,
Speaker 6: who is going to get the information about the Death Star?
Speaker 6: And for me, I was always wondering, was Carn going
Speaker 6: to flip on Dedra and he was going to provide it?
Speaker 6: I also that feeling, was Dedra going to flip on
Speaker 6: the Empire after Karn was killed and was she going
Speaker 6: to provide it? No, in the end, it's Lonnie who
Speaker 6: was the reliable source who Luthan was willing to kill
Speaker 6: thirty people, let thirty people die on a mission in
Speaker 6: order to protect Lonnie and keep in placed and always
Speaker 6: in position. And Lonnie came through, and that is the
Speaker 6: ultimately the justification for Luthan's entire mindset and method. This
Speaker 6: is how I liked it was all the plan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back, and we're back.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: We talked about our MVP, who are our you know,
Speaker 1: either group or singular LVP.
Speaker 7: Who's the least valuable player in all of that is
Speaker 7: the leaders of the rebel Alliance.
Speaker 5: And the way.
Speaker 8: I was so mad.
Speaker 5: I was so mad at that guy, Like, what the.
Speaker 7: Fuck dude, who is it?
Speaker 1: Wait, it's it's not the Donna, right, we need to
Speaker 1: get the actual, the actual Let's let's.
Speaker 8: Another Saturday.
Speaker 5: And shame him.
Speaker 2: But I completely agree. We've been talking about this in chat.
Speaker 1: Other than mon Mothma, everybody else is like a Johnny
Speaker 1: cup lately who just got here and now is throwing
Speaker 1: their weight around and they don't know the snakes what's
Speaker 1: been happening here?
Speaker 7: Not using a code if unless it's the height of necessity.
Speaker 7: To and Or's point, even if it is a trap,
Speaker 7: we still need to go because.
Speaker 2: This is a message that doesn't change anything.
Speaker 7: He wouldn't fold otherwise, like something is happening, we need
Speaker 7: to go check it out for them to be like,
Speaker 7: excuse me, you need a flight plant, move get out.
Speaker 8: Who's Claire?
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's like what just the ratus ratus strategic genius
Speaker 1: in a military sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, yeah, it's it's very.
Speaker 6: Frustrating, but this is this is this concept that the
Speaker 6: central thing that Tony wanted to tell right, the fact
Speaker 6: that there are different stages in an insurgency, and we
Speaker 6: knew from the beginning that Luthen was not going to
Speaker 6: be able to make it all the way through, and
Speaker 6: this idea of people they don't even know everything that
Speaker 6: he's done, they just have heard enough that they're like, we, wo,
Speaker 6: we cannot be associated with those kinds of things. Uh,
Speaker 6: now that we've got X wings and people in uniforms
Speaker 6: and you know, we're trying to be this this real rebellion.
Speaker 6: So I thought that was extremely effective to show that
Speaker 6: Tension and even Clay are being so afraid to go
Speaker 6: to Yavin and then when they get there and Cassie
Speaker 6: is like, yeah, it's gonna be fine when we get there,
Speaker 6: and he's like, oh, I'm fucked, I'm rounded.
Speaker 7: Sorry.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Also as well, like it's the fear of, like you know,
Speaker 5: at some point the empire, the rebels are going to
Speaker 5: have to like look like they're like cleaning up the
Speaker 5: rebellion and making sure that the people who've been doing
Speaker 5: dangerous things and blowing things up, and you've got to
Speaker 5: like have that fear of like well, am I going
Speaker 5: to be the scapegoat? You know? And I will say
Speaker 5: he did not come up in our MVP conversation, but
Speaker 5: I do always want to shout out, you know, Sawgerera.
Speaker 5: I think obviously Lutheran is a central figure in this,
Speaker 5: and we get to see how his version of the
Speaker 5: rebellion is. But let's remember that by the time we
Speaker 5: get to Rogue One, mon Mathma is already basically writing
Speaker 5: Sow out of the rebel story. He is the scapegoat.
Speaker 5: She's like, he is the one who's doing too much.
Speaker 5: He's the one who's blowing things up. But the reality,
Speaker 5: as we learn in and Or, is he is the
Speaker 5: one who's doing the missions that allow the rebellion to survive.
Speaker 5: He is the one who is getting the fuel that
Speaker 5: they need, who is getting the parts that they need,
Speaker 5: And he is the one who is puff that rider exactly.
Speaker 5: And he's the one who's emboldening people like Will who
Speaker 5: at the beginning of this season, you know, we saw
Speaker 5: struggle with the balance between both, but Saw radicalized him
Speaker 5: in a way that enabled him to stay alive. And
Speaker 5: I do think that, you know, as a Sogrera apologist,
Speaker 5: he was, He's another person who I think the rebel
Speaker 5: leadership like let down and also like made a mistake
Speaker 5: pushing away so so variantly because they are a mess,
Speaker 5: and as we see as we head into the original trilogy,
Speaker 5: they do not get this ship sorted quickly enough and
Speaker 5: there is even another death style that gets to be built.
Speaker 5: So let's be real about the success over the rebels.
Speaker 8: Like they didn't they didn't have Luther's network.
Speaker 7: David's Dravin is the guy who lv I will I'll
Speaker 7: say the Dravid.
Speaker 2: Will, I'll I'll stick up for the.
Speaker 1: Council even the way I agree they are the LVP
Speaker 1: like this, but here's how I'm gonna stick up for them.
Speaker 1: And I think, Hit, you're exactly right in that. What
Speaker 1: this show is telling us, what Tony is showing us
Speaker 1: is like, hey, guys, democracy means everybody doesn't get what
Speaker 1: they want all the time. And in order to keep legitimacy,
Speaker 1: keep that tent big, bring all the people into the
Speaker 1: fight that wouldn't otherwise have joined. If you know it
Speaker 1: was just Saw and Cassie and you know, Do and
Speaker 1: all this stuff. It is these kind of tensions are
Speaker 1: just part of it. It's going to be really frustrating,
Speaker 1: but it's part of it and I respect that that
Speaker 1: they decided to tell that story to add that aspect
Speaker 1: of it. And I think the rebellion is there's a
Speaker 1: reason that you don't have like military junta figures, Like
Speaker 1: at the top of the rebellion.
Speaker 7: It's not like, you.
Speaker 1: Know, it's mon Mathma, it's it's former senators. And yes,
Speaker 1: you have this military aspect, but it's not like you know,
Speaker 1: Grandma f Tarkin.
Speaker 5: Like five grands you know what I mean.
Speaker 7: And I think that that is.
Speaker 1: I think that's why the republic is something that people
Speaker 1: still are trying to rebuild at this point in time
Speaker 1: in galactic history, because it lets everybody have a voice.
Speaker 1: And when you let everybody have a voice, you have
Speaker 1: issues like people who don't know what the fuck is
Speaker 1: going on saying, wait, were you going with that ship?
Speaker 2: How dare you? Who the fuck is Luthen?
Speaker 1: And that is yeah, and that is really frustrating. And
Speaker 1: I found myself being like, what the fuck did John?
Speaker 1: You know, Jan shouts to Dodonna who does die and
Speaker 1: gives his life to the cause, but like in retrospect,
Speaker 1: what did he really do? Like other there's just scheduling
Speaker 1: coming calib yeah, and it's it is really frustrating, but
Speaker 1: I think it's a necessary aspect to democracy and to
Speaker 1: leveling up this fight so that it's not just you know,
Speaker 1: a bunch of scattered freedom fighters slash terrorists blowing up
Speaker 1: stuff and stealing things.
Speaker 2: Like it's a real, right, actual movement.
Speaker 9: And I want to say, like, obviously we talked about
Speaker 9: him already, but I do just want to say to me,
Speaker 9: it is like so, and I know you would hate
Speaker 9: to hear somebody just saying this kind of stuff, but like,
Speaker 9: it is so astonishing that Tony Gilroy took this tiny
Speaker 9: seed of what he was able to put into andor
Speaker 9: which was.
Speaker 5: The question and the statement of like hey, yeah, look
Speaker 5: who's getting the medals and look who did the work
Speaker 5: and we'll never get the recognition, which to me is
Speaker 5: why rogue one. I saw that in cinemas like three
Speaker 5: or four when it came out, because it just blew
Speaker 5: me away. And also everyone wanted to see it. I
Speaker 5: remember it was a family thing. It's it's Thanksgiving or
Speaker 5: whenever it came out, like let's all go together, we
Speaker 5: have to watch it. That moment spoke to me. But
Speaker 5: that was not what everyone got from that shirt that movie.
Speaker 5: It was a brilliant Star Wars action movie with a
Speaker 5: bleak ending. It twisted, you know, it shocked people. But
Speaker 5: to me, the fact that Tony was able to sow
Speaker 5: that seed there and then expand it into a series
Speaker 5: that will go down as not only one of the
Speaker 5: best entries into Star Wars, but one of the best
Speaker 5: entries into TV that then extrapolates that to the point
Speaker 5: where we are in a situation where The Atlantic and
Speaker 5: The New Yorker are writing about this show and its
Speaker 5: political impact as much as people on the Internet are
Speaker 5: talking about it. Like, I do think it's an astonishing
Speaker 5: feat and I think that the level of writing and
Speaker 5: the kind of understanding of humans and aliens and whoever
Speaker 5: else that Tony has is just like just unbelievable, And
Speaker 5: I think the show is like a testament to that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it's rare that you get a show
Speaker 7: that can accurately explore like the truth and underbelly of
Speaker 7: like a peaceful movement, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 7: a non violent protest is not for the people, it's
Speaker 7: for everyone watching as a way of being like, hey,
Speaker 7: even when we're standing here doing absolutely nothing. They're willing
Speaker 7: to kill us and show it to you. Please come help.
Speaker 7: And I think the if we just look at the
Speaker 7: last three sets of episode really the last six, like
Speaker 7: that whole middle section is doing such a good job
Speaker 7: of exploring like what happens when a small community with
Speaker 7: very little resources comes under attack. And I think there's
Speaker 7: not many shows and again I keep comparing it to Watchmen,
Speaker 7: but I just think it's probably the most apt Peter
Speaker 7: this show has. Is it's like the to be able
Speaker 7: to explore with such rich contexts, deeply complicated like human
Speaker 7: situations when it comes to like both interpersonal politics and
Speaker 7: politics on like a grand scale, like that's a deft pen.
Speaker 7: And then also to turn around and goes one of
Speaker 7: the best spy moments in episode ten. That's a whole
Speaker 7: spy movie that of exquisite nature, like we're feasting. I'm
Speaker 7: sad it's over, but I'm also glad we get to Eves.
Speaker 1: I want to call that, you know, like recency bias
Speaker 1: has us talking about and Orcy, Yeah, which is the
Speaker 1: reason we're having this round tail. But I just want
Speaker 1: to speaking of death pens and kind of like a
Speaker 1: a philosophical MVP of the of the show Neemic who
Speaker 1: his manifesto? Whose manifesto is so powerful and influential that
Speaker 1: party Gaz is listening to it before he kills himself, and.
Speaker 5: He's so stressed the other people can hear it.
Speaker 1: He just knows, I mean it kind of kind of
Speaker 1: is the the encapsulation of the problem the Empire has
Speaker 1: is they can't squeeze hard enough to stop that.
Speaker 6: The tighter, the more systems will slip through your fingers.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and the more that manifesto will spread and clearly
Speaker 1: has spread across the galaxy. So shouts Stemic and yeah,
Speaker 1: an incredible piece of writing within Star Wars Unbelieved Manifestos.
Speaker 5: And also h like you guys cover You know, obviously
Speaker 5: the pocoff began as a joom pod and now it
Speaker 5: is this broader sci fi genre movie explosion kind of exploration.
Speaker 5: You just hit two hundred and fifty episodes with Jason
Speaker 5: and with Jason. Juan joined you here too for Empire.
Speaker 5: But you, me and Jason talked quite extensively on the
Speaker 5: pot about like political movies and thrillers and like films
Speaker 5: like Come and See and Army of shadows, and obviously
Speaker 5: Dune is one of the old original kind of allegorical
Speaker 5: sci fi stories. So how much of that was what
Speaker 5: you loved about Andal because it's a great Star Wars story,
Speaker 5: but it's a great human story.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So we had been tracking and talking about and waiting
Speaker 6: for and Or for over a year right for season
Speaker 6: two to come back, And it was really the events
Speaker 6: after January twentieth of this year where we were all
Speaker 6: kind of like languishing in the discord, kind of dealing
Speaker 6: with day after day like just can't believe the news
Speaker 6: we are seeing in our everyday life, and this march
Speaker 6: towards a more authoritarian situation, and we were like, we've
Speaker 6: got to start watching and Or our season one right
Speaker 6: now and talk about it. And it became a lifeline
Speaker 6: and a place where we could explore the themes that
Speaker 6: we were having such pain in but in an unconnected way,
Speaker 6: and then filter it back. So this show showing the
Speaker 6: power of resistance exactly to say Joelle, that people showing
Speaker 6: up for other people and allowing them to see something
Speaker 6: and understand that acts of resistance do have me and
Speaker 6: that we're gonna find our way and it's going to
Speaker 6: be an unexpected avenues and unexpected actors who step into
Speaker 6: the breach. So for me, that that that was the
Speaker 6: whole thing of what Tony has done here. It's so powerful.
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break in the griff and we're back. Okay,
Speaker 2: let's settle this.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the essential Star Wars questions, I
Speaker 1: think do droids are droids truly alive in that they
Speaker 1: have some sort of soul and spirit or are they
Speaker 1: just merely highly advanced analytical, large language models that tell
Speaker 1: you what they expect you want to hear.
Speaker 5: I think that has been enough evidence. Whether it is
Speaker 5: R two D two choosing not to tell you know Anakin,
Speaker 5: or whether it is the kind of mass murder kind
Speaker 5: of passion that Chopper has. I think that there is
Speaker 5: enough evidence that droids have personalities in this world. And
Speaker 5: I think it is because in Star Wars, every single
Speaker 5: character is just made up of the people that they've
Speaker 5: met and the people that have changed them. And I
Speaker 5: think that the droids are a representation of that because
Speaker 5: it is to do with who fixed you and who
Speaker 5: spoke to you, and who taught you this and who
Speaker 5: gave you that. And I think that for the stories
Speaker 5: to have the impact that they have, the droids have
Speaker 5: to have some kind of sentience, because like when you
Speaker 5: see K two s and he is just absolutely fucking
Speaker 5: bodying Nazis, you feel that this is something that has
Speaker 5: actually been kind of suppressed in him. And when he
Speaker 5: is able to fully just explode and use his full
Speaker 5: power and use it for good and kind of create
Speaker 5: a rapport and relationship and play games with these people,
Speaker 5: it feels so natural and it feels moving. And I
Speaker 5: think that is because we see them in that way.
Speaker 5: And for me, I think they have to. They have
Speaker 5: to have kind of whatever you would say, a soul,
Speaker 5: a spirit, some kind of cognizant understanding of themselves. I
Speaker 5: think that they have to. And I love droids.
Speaker 6: H I don't believe in souls for humans, but I
Speaker 6: do believe in consciousness. So, you know, I was just
Speaker 6: talking to my son who's seven. You know, he said,
Speaker 6: I don't believe in heaven, and I was like, I
Speaker 6: don't believe in heaven either. But part of the reason
Speaker 6: why our lives have so much meaning is because we
Speaker 6: have this opportunity to interact with others and to have
Speaker 6: this experience and become a fully shaped person and help people.
Speaker 6: So to me, like K two.
Speaker 8: Killing it in the game, are two?
Speaker 6: They're they're just as they're just as real and valuable
Speaker 6: as anyone else with that consciousness.
Speaker 7: Yeah, K two being like so confused in the card game,
Speaker 7: trying to be like, well, statistically, this is not making
Speaker 7: any kind of sense. I love sort of the hybrid
Speaker 7: space we've ended up in Star Wars, where your programming
Speaker 7: is programming, but your interactions with that programming make you
Speaker 7: like or what give these robots personification? And I do
Speaker 7: think droids have soul's consciousness, however viewer you choose to
Speaker 7: describe it. I think, you know, we get to see
Speaker 7: K two make a sacrifice if you roll directly into
Speaker 7: Rogue one after this and make a very clear choice
Speaker 7: to and his existence. You know, we don't know if
Speaker 7: you can revive this version of Okay, we've seen three
Speaker 7: pob revived, so there's some hope in my heart that
Speaker 7: if the right people, But who's going back to that planet.
Speaker 5: Even you know, in the first season of The Man
Speaker 5: Glorian you get that huge sacrifice, and I think that
Speaker 5: there is something Yeah, and also as well, like just
Speaker 5: I think something that Tony did really well here that
Speaker 5: maybe if it had been in the movie and there
Speaker 5: hadn't been as much exploration of it, people would have
Speaker 5: been like, Oh, that's gimmicky, or that's like that's too
Speaker 5: kind of corny or cheesy. As I be too. Emo
Speaker 5: is always so worried about Cassio. My gosh, Cassian to
Speaker 5: be there, and he wants to know Cassian's gonna be okay.
Speaker 5: And I think that is an explicit There's no reason
Speaker 5: that you're programming would make you put it across in
Speaker 5: that way. You know, I think like the nature of
Speaker 5: the worry and the anxiety and the kind of and
Speaker 5: we got that in you know, we have much maligned
Speaker 5: it on the show. But in Rise of Skywalker there
Speaker 5: is a droid with anxiety, which I did think was
Speaker 5: an in resting kind of twist. And yeah, I think
Speaker 5: I am a I'm a droid, droids have consciousness or else.
Speaker 5: Star Wars kind of doesn't mean anything.
Speaker 7: Just how relieved I am that Biggs has ended back
Speaker 7: with Beat. He's not alone, our little guy is now
Speaker 7: that they left him alone. He was incapable hands. But
Speaker 7: I'm just glad he's back with family. I was worried
Speaker 7: about our guy.
Speaker 6: And I knew that was going to happen. If you
Speaker 6: feel so clear that that that reunion was going to
Speaker 6: be there. It was just adding the third character that
Speaker 6: that blew my mind.
Speaker 5: Uh, And so okay, I need to ask about it,
Speaker 5: seeing as the babies come up again so many many weeks.
Speaker 5: So I will say this is I believe it was
Speaker 5: alis R in our in our discord pose the idea.
Speaker 5: And I'm sorry to be the Dave Filoni of this podcast.
Speaker 5: I know this is going to annoy some people, like
Speaker 5: somebody posed the idea in our discord and this has
Speaker 5: now popped off because somebody did a hilarious meme prediction
Speaker 5: that ended up feeling alone bit more true to life
Speaker 5: at the end of this that Cassie and and Bis
Speaker 5: are Podamren's parents, and at the end she is holding
Speaker 5: you know, baby Podamren. Now, I will say in Star
Speaker 5: Wars it is there has been a problem where if
Speaker 5: people of the same race are in Star Wars, they
Speaker 5: are usually related. So I would say, this is a
Speaker 5: fair this is a fair bet. We did it. There
Speaker 5: was a little bit of contentious conversation in the discord
Speaker 5: because uh, pod Ammren does have established parents, but that
Speaker 5: doesn't really matter, honestly, and they were established in the comics.
Speaker 5: And I will say one thing I do love about
Speaker 5: this potential theory is in the comics what we learned
Speaker 5: that his mum and is a famous fighter pilot and
Speaker 5: she goes on a mission with Luke and she finds
Speaker 5: a force tree, and then Poe grows up with this
Speaker 5: force tree in the garden. That's just a story I
Speaker 5: would love to see Bis embark on, even if it
Speaker 5: is not because she is Poe's mother. So yeah, I
Speaker 5: just want to put out there, is the baby connected
Speaker 5: to Star Wars? Is the baby just a representation of
Speaker 5: hope and that life goes on? Like, how do you
Speaker 5: guys feel about those kind of theories popping up? H
Speaker 5: I'm gonna go to you as as a man who
Speaker 5: I believe probably just enjoys the textual nature of what
Speaker 5: Tony's putting down.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just for me, it's magic because it doesn't
Speaker 6: have a connection. And so I'm very happy for that
Speaker 6: baby to be somebody, And I'm sure they have a
Speaker 6: meaningful life that they have in Star Wars, but it
Speaker 6: doesn't have to be po in order to have it
Speaker 6: be really special for me, and I think again the
Speaker 6: magic trick, it wasn't just that Tony had to create
Speaker 6: the and or show that explained his journey. It's the
Speaker 6: fact that he found an entire pocket of Star Wars
Speaker 6: where he could operate with complete freedom and have it
Speaker 6: be unconnected from everything else and have all of the
Speaker 6: meaning that we love, and so that I think I
Speaker 6: just want to hold with that space that he can.
Speaker 5: I think it's fun and I think it's like emotional,
Speaker 5: and the impact of it is like it doesn't it's
Speaker 5: not taken away by it being nobody that makes it
Speaker 5: more special, you know. But then obviously, I think as
Speaker 5: Star Wars fans and especially people who love the animated
Speaker 5: series and stuff, and.
Speaker 6: The people who read a lot of X Men comments.
Speaker 5: You can't kind of help start making those connections. Joelle,
Speaker 5: I know me and you were both big We enjoyed
Speaker 5: how this theory made us feel.
Speaker 7: So I will say that in the initial discovery of
Speaker 7: it and reading it in the discord, I was like,
Speaker 7: that's exciting because I had seen it's so funny this
Speaker 7: person predicted the baby before the baby showed up in
Speaker 7: the episode. Yes, yes, and I had already seen these episodes,
Speaker 7: so I was like, how did what is going on?
Speaker 7: So I had like some time to sit with it
Speaker 7: and think about it. In the end, I think I
Speaker 7: do sort of feel the same way that I felt.
Speaker 7: And they were like, oh, Finns related lander.
Speaker 5: Could you imagine that there's more than three Latinos in space?
Speaker 7: Like right here you are? So I think, and I
Speaker 7: just think, like me, that baby represents like everything about
Speaker 7: the show, like if you oh man, like the ability
Speaker 7: to go back to the space that felt like home
Speaker 7: for Bicks, to like raise a kid there, to find
Speaker 7: a relative sense of peace finally for her, like I
Speaker 7: think this. You know, we talked so much about our
Speaker 7: fear of Bis getting fridged.
Speaker 5: And then the.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was a lot of folks who felt like
Speaker 7: betrayed when she left. They were like, how could you
Speaker 7: leave Cassian? And even now I will say what I
Speaker 7: was like, she'd better not be holding a baby. I
Speaker 7: was like, this, bitch, I'm so upset, how dare you play?
Speaker 7: Told him he would have absolutely like the whole point,
Speaker 7: like I know that you cannot you can barely focus
Speaker 7: worrying about me, And because Cassian lost his whole entire
Speaker 7: family fighting this thing and understands what is to grow up,
Speaker 7: you know, first having lost a set of parents and
Speaker 7: then mourning another one murdered in the town square. Like
Speaker 7: I don't think Cassian could put his kids through that.
Speaker 7: I really think like the whole concept of fatherhood would
Speaker 7: have changed him. And BIGX was like, but you're doing
Speaker 7: the highest good here, and you're really good at this.
Speaker 7: There's no one Luthen trusts more except Clia, Like you
Speaker 7: have to stay and I need peace. Like she she's
Speaker 7: breaking down under this, not because she's the weak person,
Speaker 7: but because she.
Speaker 5: Is like for so much more than every much more.
Speaker 6: She couldn't be there with a baby on Javin, trying
Speaker 6: to trying to send and around on missions no.
Speaker 7: And so for her to carve out a space of
Speaker 7: peace for herself, I just thought, like, this is the
Speaker 7: most beautiful possible ending you could give her.
Speaker 6: And that shot, that shot of her in the field,
Speaker 6: my god.
Speaker 5: Kind of like looking up to the sky of knowing
Speaker 5: that Cassian's doing the thing he needs to do. And
Speaker 5: I also love exactly and I also love the the
Speaker 5: while I the openness that Tony gave us here, which
Speaker 5: is like you can have whatever version of that ending
Speaker 5: that you want, Like for now, you can imagine that
Speaker 5: that baby is whoever you want, or it's nobody. I
Speaker 5: would love to see Bicks get to be a kind
Speaker 5: of more classical rebellion hero. But you know what else,
Speaker 5: I would love for her to just be able to
Speaker 5: live on like Big Week forever with her baby and
Speaker 5: just raise a chill baby in the happiness and the
Speaker 5: freedom the few years a bit that they get from
Speaker 5: the sacrifice that Cassian left, and I think that that
Speaker 5: is a really powerful place to leave us. And also,
Speaker 5: as somebody put in the group chat, you know, the
Speaker 5: only person who's getting fridged in this show is it
Speaker 5: was Cyril They Fridge the guy, which like never happens.
Speaker 6: How about the hat trick of the show is called
Speaker 6: and Or, And we always assumed that it's about it's
Speaker 6: about Cassian, but when we get to episode twelve of
Speaker 6: season one, we realize Marva and Or is the one
Speaker 6: who first likes to spark on Feryx. And then now
Speaker 6: we have a third and Or who is born, and
Speaker 6: so in a way, it's it's reflecting all three generations.
Speaker 8: I love it really is.
Speaker 7: Oh wow, I hadn't thought about that. I just think
Speaker 7: this flows really well into the cannon of Star Wars,
Speaker 7: and it really sets of blueprint for other creators who
Speaker 7: might want to come in and dabble in this universe
Speaker 7: in ways that are different. You know. I was reading
Speaker 7: that some people felt like this was a pretty nihilistic show.
Speaker 7: I beg to differ.
Speaker 5: Very hopeful.
Speaker 7: Yeah, not only is it very hopeful, but like, if
Speaker 7: you're a nihilist, there's really not a reason to fight, Like,
Speaker 7: there's no there's no reason to get up in the
Speaker 7: morning and and try to fight in these streets as
Speaker 7: a nihilist, what do you It doesn't make no sense.
Speaker 7: I just feel like there's there's so much beauty and
Speaker 7: hope and love in this show and the way that
Speaker 7: they've allowed again big holes for us to either feel
Speaker 7: in theory. You know, we love doing that space for
Speaker 7: other writers come in and pick up the story in
Speaker 7: enough left on the end that if you wanted to
Speaker 7: pick up this story an interesting way, you can without
Speaker 7: all interfering with what's been done here. I think it's
Speaker 7: just brilliant, ye, Jnihilism.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I was gonna say, Jason, is there anything
Speaker 6: you think they missed? Like, is there is there anything
Speaker 6: you you wish they would have done or a different
Speaker 6: a different choice.
Speaker 5: Not really, I mean it was in his bag.
Speaker 2: I do think that there was.
Speaker 1: I was always interested in the interior imperial politics, you know.
Speaker 1: I think that they did a good job of sketching
Speaker 1: the the frictions between the different levels of hierarchy in
Speaker 1: and how you know, you've always got to be completely
Speaker 1: subservient to whoever your bosses, and very careful to never
Speaker 1: outshine your boss.
Speaker 5: Or the rule of two is like real doing some filter.
Speaker 5: It's filtered down down, politics hapened, and so I really enjoyed,
Speaker 5: you know, like Krenick is such a.
Speaker 1: He's such an evil, but like almost comically slapstick, like
Speaker 1: he doesn't understand that he's stepping on rakes every time
Speaker 1: he turns this way, and that he doesn't understand or
Speaker 1: see the full scope of what a fucking dumbass he is.
Speaker 7: He's definitely someone who's been given power without having had
Speaker 7: to earn it at all, because there's no concept to
Speaker 7: your point, Jason, of like how are my actions having
Speaker 7: caught everyone? Even your closest at part of gas is like, uh, hey, guy,
Speaker 7: you should have been done with this, like a long
Speaker 7: time ago.
Speaker 8: We are wide, are they?
Speaker 7: He sound like Tarken. Dude, calm down, fine, We're almost there.
Speaker 1: You don't understand the whole project hinges on one guy
Speaker 1: who doesn't even want to be.
Speaker 8: Building the.
Speaker 5: Don't worry, We'll make him do it and so, And from.
Speaker 2: That perspective, I.
Speaker 1: Would have liked a little bit more Empire, but I
Speaker 1: don't need it, and I you know, I'm left with
Speaker 1: absolutely no qualms about everything that I saw. I think
Speaker 1: it was the show so far exceeded my expectations that
Speaker 1: it's kind of the only.
Speaker 6: Turn that I wanted to see, and I did not
Speaker 6: expect it. But as a season began, I had a
Speaker 6: soft spot for the ultimate l v P parent.
Speaker 8: Oh so seeing him and that last time.
Speaker 2: With Golden's wife.
Speaker 7: So, so what happened to.
Speaker 8: Perfect? It's so good, it's too good.
Speaker 7: This is your daughter's mother in law.
Speaker 5: Parents fucking good.
Speaker 7: And I don't think you fight off the gags the
Speaker 7: parent made poor parent's dead.
Speaker 1: Well, I think scolding is yeah, skulling clearly like out
Speaker 1: of the picture, maybe for various.
Speaker 2: Reasons, and uh.
Speaker 5: Also hi, yeah, maybe moving up or for whatever reason.
Speaker 6: I guess, But I wanted to see Paren like he
Speaker 6: was the young firebrand, and I was hoping that in
Speaker 6: some small way, not that he would go to Yavin
Speaker 6: or something, but that in some small way he would
Speaker 6: have been inspired by Mon's choice and and made some contribution.
Speaker 6: That's the only change I would have like seen.
Speaker 2: It makes sense, I will say that.
Speaker 1: I here's what I love about the Parent character is,
Speaker 1: you know, I think anybody that's been around like uh,
Speaker 1: progressive politics, protests or whatever, he's aware of the person
Speaker 1: who's like there because it's cool, right, And I think, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Paren was kind of one of those.
Speaker 5: He had a lot to say, but he is not
Speaker 5: interested in doing anything more than that. His wife is
Speaker 5: incredibly hot, and for a while he's just like going
Speaker 5: along with it. Rich he kind of hates to see
Speaker 5: her shine or kind of move beyond his his meanings,
Speaker 5: I think. And he made his choice. And we talked
Speaker 5: quite a lot about that moment because it is so
Speaker 5: depressing and sad when you just see him there and
Speaker 5: it's like, yeah, drink through it, man, enjoy your plu
Speaker 5: in this to.
Speaker 1: Me is a nihilistic That's a nihilistic character who just says, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's just let's.
Speaker 7: Just keep going.
Speaker 5: Let's just drink through it and uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Enough, and I can medicate myself through this, and that's fine.
Speaker 1: The nihilism charge is interesting to me because to me,
Speaker 1: what I think people are saying with that is.
Speaker 2: That they just want a happier ending.
Speaker 5: They want they were heroes.
Speaker 1: They the level of sacrifice makes them uncomfortable in the
Speaker 1: context of us Star Wars story, and they want to
Speaker 1: see those metals get pinned on chests.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and if there is a legitimate like claim to that,
Speaker 7: I know, here's what I'll say.
Speaker 5: Okay, So I know that.
Speaker 7: Star Wars is originally a series for children, and I
Speaker 7: think that's beautiful. And I think we have an egregious
Speaker 7: amount of content for children that is specifically Star Wars
Speaker 7: that speaks to them and warns of the dangers of war,
Speaker 7: which I feel like is really important. I also think
Speaker 7: it's really important that this show is talking strictly to
Speaker 7: adults about not just the consequences, but like what fallout
Speaker 7: looks like, like what sacrifice might have to look like.
Speaker 7: The people that you might are being told are rebels
Speaker 7: aren't like, actually look at what they're doing. Examine that. Like,
Speaker 7: it to me really exemplifies what those lessons are supposed
Speaker 7: to be and drive them home for an older age.
Speaker 7: And I think that's great. I mean, we're all comics people.
Speaker 7: We're used to characters being shoved into different shapes and
Speaker 7: forms and tones to fit an audience. I think that
Speaker 7: that's okay to have in Star Wars. And I think
Speaker 7: it's totally fine if you watch this and you're like,
Speaker 7: this is too blique for me, I'm not interested in
Speaker 7: I think that's totally fair. I completely understand that. I
Speaker 7: just I do think that I have a great deal
Speaker 7: of appreciation for this thing I've left for a long time,
Speaker 7: sort of growing up and step and in the space
Speaker 7: that I can step up to and and enjoy. I
Speaker 7: think it's important.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm just gonna.
Speaker 7: Get the accolades.
Speaker 5: Do you think I think it's gonna get I think accolades.
Speaker 8: I think are we.
Speaker 7: Talking statues are talking hard.
Speaker 8: I think it's gonna get.
Speaker 5: I think it's gonna get nominations. Will it win questionable,
Speaker 5: that's still scared of genre, that's still scared of these
Speaker 5: kind of big I P properties. But I do think
Speaker 5: it's gonna I think it will get amount of nominations.
Speaker 1: The critical claim is overwhelming, So they've got that and
Speaker 1: the people in the awarding post and never underestimate the
Speaker 1: power of the Disney marketing machine to make the case
Speaker 1: that this is a.
Speaker 7: Great showering of awards. So I think it's got a
Speaker 7: good shot.
Speaker 2: I think it's got a really good shot.
Speaker 7: I think I think they'll follow a lot of shows
Speaker 7: other trends, which is like we'll really lean into eight
Speaker 7: and probably ten, go for what like Luthin, maybe Claya
Speaker 7: definitely and orm I think those are their acting categories.
Speaker 5: From last from that season where it's like then you
Speaker 5: start to narrow in, like Bella won like three different awards,
Speaker 5: I think, and you start to focus. I think, if
Speaker 5: there's any justice, I do think Diego should be really
Speaker 5: in those conversations. But I also think Diego has the
Speaker 5: ultimate problem, which is he is so so talented that
Speaker 5: he makes it look easy and oftentimes award. If you
Speaker 5: are very consistent and always great, it can be really
Speaker 5: hard for a war shows to recognize you, and I
Speaker 5: think that could be an issue. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 5: as we have and many others have speculated, the drop
Speaker 5: format seems to imply it was because they wanted to
Speaker 5: get him for this year's Emmys and stuff, and it
Speaker 5: is the most highly rated and critically acclaimed Star Wars
Speaker 5: live action project ever, So I will be interested to
Speaker 5: see what this year's award season looks like. And I
Speaker 5: just want to say I do think on the nihilism frame,
Speaker 5: and this is not a critique. I do think one
Speaker 5: of the reasons it's easy to make that read is
Speaker 5: because Tony's quotes. He is a man who has a
Speaker 5: realistic outlook on life. So he's out here and he's like,
Speaker 5: six thousand years of human history, most of it fucking sucked.
Speaker 5: He's like, most of it was famine, and this could
Speaker 5: be in any time. And if you don't see that,
Speaker 5: like thinking you live in a unique period of time
Speaker 5: is like myopic. And I think his view on humanity
Speaker 5: and human history, which is just realistic, it can seem nihilistic.
Speaker 5: And I think if you're reading those quotes and the
Speaker 5: show is already kind of bumming you out, maybe you
Speaker 5: read it that way, but this is, you know, this
Speaker 5: is they have introduced.
Speaker 9: Now, the.
Speaker 5: Introduction of a rebellion is built on hope, and it's
Speaker 5: the guy who works the hotel in Gorman who makes
Speaker 5: that choice, makes that sacrifice, as Jason has been putting
Speaker 5: it this season, which I love, gums up the machine
Speaker 5: in any little way he can. And that is what
Speaker 5: the show is about. The show is about the hope
Speaker 5: of a rebellion. It's about the hope of something better
Speaker 5: for other people because you might not be here to
Speaker 5: see it, but you believe that the action you are
Speaker 5: taking could help others. That's like the most hopeful thing
Speaker 5: you can have.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And it was and or engaging him that in
Speaker 6: a way that other people hadn't engaged him, as he's
Speaker 6: dropped off bags in one hundred rooms a hundred times.
Speaker 6: He took the moment to draw him out and get
Speaker 6: that conversation that started it, that brought it back.
Speaker 5: My god, I mean huge.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break before them. The Emperor's shuttle arrives,
Speaker 1: the walkway descends, and himself comes walking down the gang
Speaker 1: plank to tell us his issues.
Speaker 8: And we're back.
Speaker 5: We're back.
Speaker 2: Age.
Speaker 1: If you have not been aware of what's been happening
Speaker 1: in these round tables, uh, we like to close the
Speaker 1: conversation by inviting super producer Aaron to the proceedings to
Speaker 1: just be a little bit of the dark side of
Speaker 1: the forest, a little bit of choking, a little bit
Speaker 1: of finger lighting, just a little bit, a little bit
Speaker 1: of evil thought projection, and to tell us, you know,
Speaker 1: all the things that were wrong.
Speaker 5: About I'm actually so excited to see H's reactions to this. Aaron,
Speaker 5: tell us, what are the three worst things that happened
Speaker 5: in and in the finale?
Speaker 8: In the finale, the three worst things are they introduced
Speaker 8: K two in a way that he's so overpowered that
Speaker 8: they couldn't have him anywhere else. He couldn't have been
Speaker 8: in the rest of the story because they it would
Speaker 8: have been three episodes and would be done because Kate
Speaker 8: the K two droids were fascinatingly strong and scary.
Speaker 5: He is op and I love.
Speaker 8: Yes, that's not really a bad thing. I did say,
Speaker 8: you know, I think it was last week. One of
Speaker 8: my biggest complaints was Cyril becoming like a hand to
Speaker 8: hand like true karate master out of nowhere.
Speaker 10: Okay, all I have to say that that was the
Speaker 10: last expatch though, well, I just want to say the
Speaker 10: Discord did have some things to say about that, which was,
Speaker 10: you know, he used to be an agent, you think
Speaker 10: have some training.
Speaker 5: He was secure a like, come on our and the
Speaker 5: discord was not happy about us.
Speaker 8: Have you never signed someone up before? I look at
Speaker 8: Cyril one minute and I'm like, he doesn't know how
Speaker 8: to fight. I get that, butted him from it was
Speaker 8: like not. But I will say I did appreciate these
Speaker 8: three episodes actually made me change my mind because it
Speaker 8: really highlights this idea that even these individuals who are
Speaker 8: maybe fighting for the cause or the team, all of
Speaker 8: them are still being led by their own personal desires
Speaker 8: and biases, and so many of them went off the
Speaker 8: rails in these three episodes because of that. Soddre is
Speaker 8: hell bent on finding Cassian and Luthan and that is
Speaker 8: her ultimate downfall, and so the same thing with Cyril.
Speaker 8: So I did actually kind of change my mind a
Speaker 8: little bit on that guys coal mine for it. Yeah,
Speaker 8: another thing, I mean I joked about it with K
Speaker 8: two s O what Another one of my complaints previously
Speaker 8: was did we need this hide of a budget? Like
Speaker 8: is this just gonna be bad if it doesn't the.
Speaker 2: Wallet the wallet Inspector has returned.
Speaker 8: And then they had K two playing cards.
Speaker 5: Have you seen the budget for Indoor Season two? Mister
Speaker 5: Igerat's absolutely. Larren's texting Ike Palma and he's definitely are
Speaker 5: using some some low of safety clips.
Speaker 7: In this one extra walk by for two seconds in
Speaker 7: full make up.
Speaker 5: Okay, take how much?
Speaker 8: But but then they had K two playing cards, and
Speaker 8: they had K two picking up people from their front
Speaker 8: plates and dropping them. Loved it. If they try a
Speaker 8: single dollar away from the K two c G I
Speaker 8: would have been upset.
Speaker 2: So I appreciate.
Speaker 5: I love this. It's turning around. I, in.
Speaker 8: All honesty, didn't have anything to complain about with these
Speaker 8: last episodes. Jason brought Jason brought this up. One of
Speaker 8: my favorite things was looking inside the Empire and getting
Speaker 8: this really different view and seeing like the internal politics
Speaker 8: of party gas, realizing like I'm just gonna fucking I'm
Speaker 8: going down with the ship, like I have no way out,
Speaker 8: I'm just taking my life here, and then seeing the
Speaker 8: helmetless like bitch ass stormtroopers like I fucking hated them,
Speaker 8: and it was so good. I was just like in
Speaker 8: my notes, I'm like these fucking cops and then like, hmmm,
Speaker 8: that whole hallway scene. I mean, Disney knows how to
Speaker 8: do a hallway scene. Yeah, I loved it, and I
Speaker 8: loved seeing them as these like the shaved heads and
Speaker 8: the big ass mustache, and I'm like, this is this
Speaker 8: is a different side of Stormtroopers we never see, Yeah,
Speaker 8: we never see their face, and then we never see
Speaker 8: them scared and that was really cool.
Speaker 5: Okay, because of this, because you're here in a in
Speaker 5: an unbelievably shocking twist as a lover of the finalege.
Speaker 8: And you kind of Darth Vader at the end, take off,
Speaker 8: take off, my.
Speaker 2: Look upon you this time?
Speaker 7: My own us?
Speaker 8: And two do you still have them?
Speaker 5: Annequin? Let's talk because none of us touched on this.
Speaker 5: So let's end on a celebratory note. How I'm not
Speaker 5: going to actually do a leading question? Do you enjoy
Speaker 5: Dead Dra's bye where we left? Because I think that
Speaker 5: was one of the most satisfying parts of the show
Speaker 5: for me.
Speaker 8: I loved it so much. I couldn't think of a
Speaker 8: better way. Yeah, I couldn't think of a better way
Speaker 8: for her story to end with her. Like in that
Speaker 8: same my wife came home as I was finishishing the
Speaker 8: final episode, and so like I just burst out laughing
Speaker 8: at that moment. She didn't has not watched any of it,
Speaker 8: so I had to explain some of it to her.
Speaker 8: Then we went back and we watched all of the
Speaker 8: K two S scenes, so you see all of that.
Speaker 8: But yeah, I loved it. I thought that was like
Speaker 8: such an incredible way, and she does an incredible job
Speaker 8: acting there where you there's no words, nothing, she just
Speaker 8: puts her hands in her head, in her hands, in
Speaker 8: complete defeat. And that, I I what an incredible callback
Speaker 8: to this place that I think the best episodes of
Speaker 8: season one agree and to have her there and it's like,
Speaker 8: you know, a lot of people didn't get things right,
Speaker 8: like you know, the family of anyone who's involved in
Speaker 8: this probably died. And it is also, like you said,
Speaker 8: locked up in that same prison. But for her to
Speaker 8: be there, I love that. Yeah. Do you think she
Speaker 8: gets out? Do you think she gets out.
Speaker 7: Five years the last time they'll ever let this happen?
Speaker 5: Yeah, And we get a second death Star and we know.
Speaker 7: This is where they're built. No way she's dying in here,
Speaker 7: She's getting moved floor to floor uto eternity.
Speaker 1: I also know I will say there's a chance maybe
Speaker 1: in the New Republic era, that she gets that amnesty
Speaker 1: and gets to go.
Speaker 2: To one of these Yeah, because she wants.
Speaker 1: You know, like castaway facilities where you're reintegrated into But
Speaker 1: I think she never come I think.
Speaker 5: The thing that is so powerful about that ending, and
Speaker 5: that I think is a really brilliant kind of lesson
Speaker 5: and statement is Dedra's dream was to be known for
Speaker 5: what she did and her part in the rebellion, and
Speaker 5: I mean her part in the empire and crushing the rebellion.
Speaker 5: And I think that we know from what we saw
Speaker 5: in Knakina before, and we know from the way that
Speaker 5: prisons work in the real world. Not that this show
Speaker 5: has any reflections of real life, obviously, let's not. Let's
Speaker 5: not like draw any lines. I'm not come back. But
Speaker 5: like she is forgotten. That's the real truth. She will
Speaker 5: never get the credit. No one is thinking of her,
Speaker 5: and she knows because she has sent many many people
Speaker 5: to those prisons, that she is now forgotten. She is irrelevant.
Speaker 5: And what led her there was a quest and an
Speaker 5: obsession with basically punishing people and they end up there
Speaker 5: is so fitting.
Speaker 7: It's perfect ending for this character who we followed through
Speaker 7: a lot of ups and downs. I think Denise Gout
Speaker 7: should walk away with the statue, like I agree anybody
Speaker 7: gets it, like obviously like what Scar's guard did Luvin
Speaker 7: is phenomenal. Yes, but there's such a like, my god,
Speaker 7: the her coming in for her victory laugh is hysterical,
Speaker 7: like the way she's able to play both the comedy
Speaker 7: of the scene because we understand Luthn is planned for
Speaker 7: this and so there's no way out for her, like
Speaker 7: she's not gonna get what she wants. The doubled into
Speaker 7: triple on Hondras and the writing there. I just think
Speaker 7: that when we get Yeah, it's really beautiful writing, it
Speaker 7: picks up that night is like we don't know, it's authentic,
Speaker 7: like find out I don't know, Yeah to her like
Speaker 7: literally her fall to her feet, to the scene that
Speaker 7: we get with Krenick, which I mean Ben Meddleston on
Speaker 7: a kick. But I just think like that ending for her,
Speaker 7: not only is it fitting, but like in the human
Speaker 7: side of Dedre that we got to see, like there's
Speaker 7: such an element of like, yes, all she wants is
Speaker 7: the glory and she's a bad person. She was really
Speaker 7: excited to torture Luthan, like she was like Doney coreabout
Speaker 7: She's like I've got time, okay for you.
Speaker 2: I've been waiting in his belly.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, near to death and then do it all
Speaker 7: over again. This is what she's the part of her
Speaker 7: job that she's most excited about. A despicable humor, which
Speaker 7: also a person who never again had any kind of
Speaker 7: sense of like love, like.
Speaker 5: Well by the Empire, she was an orphan.
Speaker 7: She's in a cult essentially, and how do you get
Speaker 7: rewarded in this cult by being the most ruthless And
Speaker 7: she's climbing the ladder. She's found a way. It's awful,
Speaker 7: but it's true. And then for them to show, okase
Speaker 7: like no matter what role you play, that you're gonna
Speaker 7: die like I just love the way they set that
Speaker 7: up with that.
Speaker 1: Here's what's interesting to me about Dedra's character. As we
Speaker 1: as we have said many times, this is a show
Speaker 1: that has no connection.
Speaker 2: To real life, but it's kind of the you know,
Speaker 2: we've gone through.
Speaker 1: An age and government of like technocrats, people with immense
Speaker 1: intellect and ability to get into positions and just know
Speaker 1: how stuff works, right, and we see the value in that.
Speaker 1: I think Dedra would have thrived under the Republic or
Speaker 1: the New Republic exact same role I think she would be.
Speaker 1: I think people would be like, Wow, I'm just good
Speaker 1: at her job. Im Burials like great, but it shows
Speaker 1: you the danger of a technocrat with no ethics morals.
Speaker 1: This is a person who was just like, I want
Speaker 1: to be great at my job and I don't really
Speaker 1: care of what the right or wrong about what we're doing.
Speaker 1: And those people are dangerous as well, though in a
Speaker 1: in a different context than truly bad actors, people who
Speaker 1: were out there with truly malign uh intentions, which I
Speaker 1: never thought Dejah really had true malign intentions. She was
Speaker 1: just like, this is I'm following the law. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: out here hunting down spies and I'm good at it.
Speaker 8: I'm playing for the team. Yeah, I'm an MVP.
Speaker 5: Will remember me well because yeah, need they need the
Speaker 5: planet right?
Speaker 1: And again, I think if she was working for the Republic,
Speaker 1: people would be like, yeah, that's good, like we I
Speaker 1: have no qualms about working with Dad, and I think
Speaker 1: that what is so satisfying. In one of my darker
Speaker 1: moments on the off MI in the X Ray Vision,
Speaker 1: Zoom I once said to this gathering, not h but
Speaker 1: everybody else.
Speaker 8: You know what, I've.
Speaker 1: Decided that I'm pro mass incarceration, but only for the
Speaker 1: bad people, and that's how I feel about the final
Speaker 1: outcome for death. It's terrible the place that she's been
Speaker 1: thrown into, but I can't think of a better place.
Speaker 8: Yea.
Speaker 1: Yes, I have another should take We should dismantle that
Speaker 1: entire structure, but.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to just leave her.
Speaker 4: Yea.
Speaker 8: I have another real world connection that I want to
Speaker 8: ask poses a question because in my head I was like,
Speaker 8: could we do some spin off that's like an X
Speaker 8: Force or I m F with like Claya and Vell
Speaker 8: and Bix and like them doing all anything that the
Speaker 8: Rebel Council cant to. But I came up with a
Speaker 8: better way of posing it. Who would win one hundred
Speaker 8: clayas or a rank RPS and we give Clay and
Speaker 8: Claia gets to like outfit the room that they're fighting.
Speaker 2: Are so overrated.
Speaker 5: There is very I think one could be around.
Speaker 1: And the muscles around the throat of the ring cord
Speaker 1: clearly mers strong enough to protect the wind pipe.
Speaker 2: And if you get to that wind.
Speaker 7: Pipe, it's.
Speaker 5: Most video games and even I have beaten irand Court
Speaker 5: just throwing some bones to distract it before I get
Speaker 5: my light sabers out like I think Clay I will
Speaker 5: be fine. Yes, thank you, this is a joy.
Speaker 1: Season two our final season two Xtra Vision round Table.
Speaker 5: H h.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us and being such a wonderful
Speaker 1: guest and voice on the round table.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me you yes, yeah, you'll you see. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you could find a skate patch wherever you listen to
Speaker 6: your podcast. We just did episode two hundred and fifty
Speaker 6: with Jason Concepts.
Speaker 8: We did a vampire strikes back.
Speaker 6: It's an amazing episode and I would say folks should
Speaker 6: also check out Rosy's to entry which was Twilight, which
Speaker 6: is a legendary episode. But we have and or coverage
Speaker 6: and everything. Just check check it out online.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and lots of crossover between our two discords, so
Speaker 5: if you're already get an x ray Vision discord, you'll
Speaker 5: feel just at home, just as at home at the
Speaker 5: Escape Patch Discord.
Speaker 8: We we love y'all.
Speaker 6: We appreciate so much everything you've done.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Coming up this week on x ray Vision Tomorrow, join
Speaker 1: us for news and a couple of interviews with the
Speaker 1: cast and creators for Apple TV Plus's new Murder Bots
Speaker 1: series and adaptation Yes Books. Then on Monday, we'll see
Speaker 1: how Ellie breaks our heart this week with the last
Speaker 1: of US two six. Tuesday, we're celebrating the dual anniversaries
Speaker 1: of Empire Shrinks back to the Revenge of the Sith. Thursday,
Speaker 1: We've got a New We've Got Thursday, We've Got a
Speaker 1: Need for Speed recaps of the entire Mission Impossible series.
Speaker 1: And then Friday, we're introduced to the new series, in
Speaker 1: which we will feature our long delayed review of Sinners Saturday.
Speaker 2: For this episode, thanks for listening, Bye bye.
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie
Speaker 1: Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2: Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Speaker 5: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.
Speaker 1: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 1: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 5: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Speaker 5: Heidi our discord moderator