1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:15,506 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,656 --> 00:00:26,556 Speaker 2: For most of Mickey's adult life, he was on the run, hiding, 3 00:00:27,096 --> 00:00:31,536 Speaker 2: changing identities, trying to stay one step ahead of everyone. 4 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:37,656 Speaker 2: He called himself a gypsy. He called himself a wandering rabbi. 5 00:00:38,536 --> 00:00:42,396 Speaker 2: He saw himself as cast out of golden Malibu as 6 00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:47,176 Speaker 2: it changed before his eyes. Linda Kai was with Mickey 7 00:00:47,446 --> 00:00:49,466 Speaker 2: on and off for the better part of a decade. 8 00:00:50,146 --> 00:00:54,246 Speaker 2: She was his longest-term romantic partner, his confidant, and his 9 00:00:54,326 --> 00:00:58,526 Speaker 2: partner in crime. And when they weren't together, he wrote 10 00:00:58,586 --> 00:00:58,846 Speaker 2: to her. 11 00:01:01,426 --> 00:01:07,856 Speaker 3: There are 64 letters from all over the world with 12 00:01:07,936 --> 00:01:14,096 Speaker 3: addresses and stamps. And this was all with Mickey. And 13 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:19,586 Speaker 3: see his artwork? Yeah, this is a lot of his oeufs. 14 00:01:20,726 --> 00:01:23,196 Speaker 3: There's a lot of lure in here. I wouldn't say 15 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:23,876 Speaker 3: they're love letters. 16 00:01:24,976 --> 00:01:27,116 Speaker 2: Linda and I are sitting at the breakfast table of 17 00:01:27,156 --> 00:01:31,076 Speaker 2: her mobile home in Ventura. Light streams in through the windows. 18 00:01:32,096 --> 00:01:34,886 Speaker 2: On the table between us is the black binder where 19 00:01:34,926 --> 00:01:38,906 Speaker 2: she keeps the letters from Mickey. Flipping through the binder, 20 00:01:39,106 --> 00:01:44,086 Speaker 2: I'm overwhelmed by the explosion of strange drawings of cats 21 00:01:44,166 --> 00:01:46,846 Speaker 2: and witches and cataclysmic world events. 22 00:01:48,006 --> 00:01:49,166 Speaker 1: Also, jokes. 23 00:01:50,186 --> 00:01:52,806 Speaker 2: There's a clipping from a newspaper of a man surrounded 24 00:01:52,906 --> 00:01:54,226 Speaker 2: by credit card applications. 25 00:01:54,866 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 1: Quote, Mr. 26 00:01:56,116 --> 00:02:01,316 Speaker 2: Plastic Fantastic, collector has 788 credit cards, can't stop applying. 27 00:02:01,956 --> 00:02:04,276 Speaker 2: And what appears to be a photo of Mickey Dora 28 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:10,316 Speaker 2: pasted onto his head. There are formulas, equations, and references 29 00:02:10,416 --> 00:02:11,856 Speaker 2: to the episodic wave. 30 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:15,416 Speaker 1: There's, like, some mathematical formulas in here. 31 00:02:15,456 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 3: Yes, everything is a secret, and, you know, it's like 32 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:21,786 Speaker 3: I was scared to death when I would get one, 33 00:02:22,286 --> 00:02:25,786 Speaker 3: and I had to let it sit for a while. Checkmate. 34 00:02:26,306 --> 00:02:27,566 Speaker 4: Wow, this is intense. 35 00:02:28,226 --> 00:02:29,986 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to let them sit for a couple 36 00:02:30,026 --> 00:02:32,666 Speaker 3: of weeks before I actually would open them to get 37 00:02:33,006 --> 00:02:34,706 Speaker 3: my head right, you know, to be sure I was 38 00:02:34,776 --> 00:02:37,996 Speaker 3: ready to read some of this stuff. Because a lot 39 00:02:38,016 --> 00:02:42,316 Speaker 3: of it's super paranoia about the world and the collapse 40 00:02:42,336 --> 00:02:43,976 Speaker 3: from the Russians. 41 00:02:45,896 --> 00:02:49,416 Speaker 2: In the letters, Mickey makes liberal use of the N-word. 42 00:02:50,196 --> 00:02:57,236 Speaker 2: He also indulges in blatant, Internet-style, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Quote, 43 00:02:57,716 --> 00:03:00,556 Speaker 2: the Jew Zionists are the richest people in the world 44 00:03:00,896 --> 00:03:05,176 Speaker 2: and control much of its destiny. Jews like Lord Rothschild 45 00:03:05,476 --> 00:03:09,596 Speaker 2: every day in ironclad secrecy decide and flash around the 46 00:03:09,636 --> 00:03:12,606 Speaker 2: world how high the price of gold should be on 47 00:03:12,616 --> 00:03:13,486 Speaker 2: a particular day. 48 00:03:13,506 --> 00:03:14,786 Speaker 1: Unquote. 49 00:03:16,146 --> 00:03:20,706 Speaker 2: That would be Philippe de Rothschild, his father's employer, the 50 00:03:20,766 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 2: same person Mickey would steal stationery from whenever he had 51 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:25,466 Speaker 2: the chance. 52 00:03:26,556 --> 00:03:29,256 Speaker 3: The conspiracies went rampant in his head. 53 00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:30,016 Speaker 1: You know, he. 54 00:03:29,996 --> 00:03:33,286 Speaker 3: Never was, like, talking about aliens. It was always the 55 00:03:33,346 --> 00:03:36,066 Speaker 3: nuclear bomb. This was all about New Zealand. You know, 56 00:03:36,086 --> 00:03:38,826 Speaker 3: let's go to New Zealand where it's safe. He didn't 57 00:03:38,846 --> 00:03:40,806 Speaker 3: want to be in the Northern Hemisphere. He said, oh, 58 00:03:40,836 --> 00:03:43,036 Speaker 3: it's going to be radiation. It's going to be trouble. 59 00:03:43,956 --> 00:03:46,276 Speaker 3: Everything's going to blow up. A lot of the letters 60 00:03:46,436 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 3: contain all this. And sometimes I couldn't read them. I 61 00:03:49,896 --> 00:03:51,156 Speaker 3: was like, this is awful, you know. 62 00:03:52,436 --> 00:03:55,506 Speaker 2: It says here in this letter, can you smell it? 63 00:03:55,736 --> 00:04:00,736 Speaker 2: It's the asshole conspiracy. The spread of asshole-ism during the 64 00:04:00,776 --> 00:04:05,216 Speaker 2: last century has been orchestrated on the part of a 65 00:04:05,456 --> 00:04:10,496 Speaker 2: secret international conspiracy. The experts have believed that the problems 66 00:04:10,536 --> 00:04:14,406 Speaker 2: of society could be blamed on poverty, ignorance, exploitation, racism, sexism, 67 00:04:14,966 --> 00:04:15,806 Speaker 2: or the devil. 68 00:04:16,366 --> 00:04:17,006 Speaker 1: But they were wrong. 69 00:04:17,466 --> 00:04:23,706 Speaker 2: These problems were created by well-placed assholes in the media, government, education, 70 00:04:23,866 --> 00:04:28,156 Speaker 2: and religion. who kept society stirred up and confused with 71 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:35,126 Speaker 2: their little brown tricks. A worldwide revolution, a social enema 72 00:04:35,166 --> 00:04:38,046 Speaker 2: to purge assholes and asshole-ism forever. 73 00:04:39,046 --> 00:04:42,106 Speaker 1: All my best, M and S-Boy. 74 00:04:45,596 --> 00:04:48,096 Speaker 2: Did you start to think at some point that he 75 00:04:48,196 --> 00:04:53,056 Speaker 2: was really losing it? Like it got worse, the sort 76 00:04:53,096 --> 00:04:56,776 Speaker 2: of paranoia and the... conspiracy thinking and the sort of 77 00:04:56,796 --> 00:04:58,176 Speaker 2: darkness of his vision? 78 00:04:58,256 --> 00:04:58,576 Speaker 5: Yes. 79 00:04:59,316 --> 00:05:04,926 Speaker 3: When I started reading and educating myself, I was thinking, 80 00:05:06,646 --> 00:05:10,206 Speaker 3: where is Russia getting us in trouble? Why are we 81 00:05:10,266 --> 00:05:13,816 Speaker 3: having a thing with Russia? There's nothing going on. Mickey 82 00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 3: saw something bad in situations, probably a lot of them 83 00:05:18,976 --> 00:05:23,936 Speaker 3: in Russia. I was interested in the surfing part, not 84 00:05:23,996 --> 00:05:25,956 Speaker 3: all this conspiracy stuff, you know? 85 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:31,316 Speaker 2: At a certain point, the darkness, it threatened to engulf her, 86 00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:37,156 Speaker 2: and she fled. But Mickey's fear, whatever he was running from, 87 00:05:37,176 --> 00:05:42,956 Speaker 2: it affected Linda's whole life. And not only Linda's. The 88 00:05:43,016 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 2: dark prince cast a shadow over Malibu and surfing. And 89 00:05:48,536 --> 00:05:51,586 Speaker 2: it was the people around him that paid the price. 90 00:05:55,856 --> 00:06:27,176 Speaker 2: I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. Episode 12, 91 00:06:27,176 --> 00:06:34,286 Speaker 2: A Nasty Piece of Work. Mickey's whole life was a 92 00:06:34,406 --> 00:06:35,666 Speaker 2: giant F.U. 93 00:06:35,866 --> 00:06:36,646 Speaker 1: To society. 94 00:06:37,566 --> 00:06:39,006 Speaker 6: I used to say to people when they would give 95 00:06:39,046 --> 00:06:42,406 Speaker 6: me the, oh, by God, Mickey Dora, unbelievable, and I 96 00:06:42,446 --> 00:06:46,066 Speaker 6: would just say, if you really like Mickey Dora, you 97 00:06:46,106 --> 00:06:46,886 Speaker 6: never met the guy. 98 00:06:48,066 --> 00:06:50,786 Speaker 2: California Surf Museum President Jim Kempton. 99 00:06:50,806 --> 00:06:54,506 Speaker 6: I don't know anybody that really knew Mickey well that 100 00:06:54,536 --> 00:06:57,926 Speaker 6: would say, What a great guy. What a friend. What 101 00:06:57,976 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 6: a pal. What a dude that really went out of 102 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 6: his way for me. There just isn't one person I 103 00:07:03,336 --> 00:07:04,876 Speaker 6: know that's ever said that. 104 00:07:07,696 --> 00:07:11,556 Speaker 2: Mickey has his place in history. He's the man who 105 00:07:11,576 --> 00:07:12,676 Speaker 2: mastered Malibu. 106 00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:17,966 Speaker 6: That is something that you won't get much better than 107 00:07:17,986 --> 00:07:23,806 Speaker 6: Mickey at. There aren't many people who rode a surfboard 108 00:07:23,826 --> 00:07:33,296 Speaker 6: with more elegance. more refinery, more style, more arrogance than Mickey. 109 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:38,516 Speaker 6: And that is, as I say, that's the work. And 110 00:07:38,536 --> 00:07:41,726 Speaker 6: you just can't take that, no matter what else, that image, 111 00:07:41,806 --> 00:07:46,266 Speaker 6: that thing will always be iconic. 112 00:07:47,426 --> 00:07:51,246 Speaker 2: For many surfing insiders, Mickey was the definition of the 113 00:07:51,386 --> 00:07:55,906 Speaker 2: true surfer. He claimed to be authentic, compared to all 114 00:07:55,946 --> 00:08:02,086 Speaker 2: the phonies and the fakes and the gidget wannabes. My 115 00:08:02,106 --> 00:08:03,306 Speaker 2: whole life is this escape. 116 00:08:03,356 --> 00:08:06,516 Speaker 3: My whole life is this wave I drop into, set 117 00:08:06,556 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 3: the whole thing up, pull out the bottom, pull up into. 118 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 7: It, and shoot for my life. 119 00:08:11,396 --> 00:08:16,266 Speaker 8: I'm going for broke, man. And behind me, all this 120 00:08:16,286 --> 00:08:17,386 Speaker 8: shit goes over my back. 121 00:08:18,826 --> 00:08:20,026 Speaker 9: I'm shooting for my life, and when it. 122 00:08:20,006 --> 00:08:25,356 Speaker 2: Starts to cool, This is the classic Mickey Dora rebel yell. 123 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:27,056 Speaker 1: There's more of it. 124 00:08:27,496 --> 00:08:31,036 Speaker 2: Mickey goes on. Behind me, all this shit goes over 125 00:08:31,096 --> 00:08:38,126 Speaker 2: my back. The screaming parents, teachers, screaming teachers, police, priests, politicians, 126 00:08:38,426 --> 00:08:42,406 Speaker 2: knee boarders, windsurfers. They're all going over the falls, head 127 00:08:42,526 --> 00:08:46,106 Speaker 2: first into the reef. Head first into the motherfucking reef. 128 00:08:46,946 --> 00:08:49,836 Speaker 2: And I'm shooting for my life. And when it starts 129 00:08:49,876 --> 00:08:52,336 Speaker 2: to close up, I pull to the bottom, out to 130 00:08:52,356 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 2: the back, and I pick up another one and do 131 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:56,466 Speaker 2: the same goddamn thing. 132 00:08:58,226 --> 00:09:02,486 Speaker 1: This is why the wild kids loved him. This attitude. 133 00:09:02,926 --> 00:09:07,966 Speaker 2: This rejection of authority. But I hear something else in 134 00:09:08,026 --> 00:09:13,866 Speaker 2: it now. Something I didn't hear before. Desperation. Not the 135 00:09:14,166 --> 00:09:18,126 Speaker 2: joy of escape, but the stress and the panic of 136 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 2: being pursued. From early adulthood, Mickey lived a secret life. 137 00:09:24,576 --> 00:09:29,616 Speaker 2: Wherever he went, North America, South America, Asia, Africa, Australia, 138 00:09:29,706 --> 00:09:33,846 Speaker 2: New Zealand, Europe, all he wanted was to be free. 139 00:09:35,086 --> 00:09:38,026 Speaker 2: But he lived in fear that someone would sniff out 140 00:09:38,066 --> 00:09:43,126 Speaker 2: his secrets, betray him, catch him, know him. 141 00:09:46,186 --> 00:09:48,496 Speaker 9: He was performative. Mickey was theaters. 142 00:09:49,566 --> 00:09:52,666 Speaker 2: This is David Renson again. He's the author of the 143 00:09:52,746 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 2: Mickey Dora oral history, All for a Few Perfect Waves. 144 00:09:57,396 --> 00:10:01,396 Speaker 2: He spent years trying to root out Mickey's secrets, whatever 145 00:10:01,436 --> 00:10:04,396 Speaker 2: they might be. David and I have been talking about 146 00:10:04,456 --> 00:10:09,546 Speaker 2: Mickey's dark side, the swastikas, the Nazi posturing. He wants 147 00:10:09,586 --> 00:10:10,686 Speaker 2: to give me some context. 148 00:10:11,866 --> 00:10:16,936 Speaker 9: Mickey came from an era of guys who liked to 149 00:10:17,016 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 9: rat-fuck each other, who wanted to be in the face 150 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:26,456 Speaker 9: of conformity in society, like Marlon Brando on a motorcycle 151 00:10:26,476 --> 00:10:31,226 Speaker 9: or James Dean at the Griffith Park. observatory, that whole thing. 152 00:10:31,906 --> 00:10:36,056 Speaker 9: And I just think that in the 40s, early 50s, 153 00:10:36,826 --> 00:10:40,526 Speaker 9: what would be something you could throw in society's face? 154 00:10:40,586 --> 00:10:43,026 Speaker 9: I think he put a swastika on a board. I 155 00:10:43,066 --> 00:10:47,726 Speaker 9: believe Mickey also had a SS leather coat. He wasn't 156 00:10:47,946 --> 00:10:54,716 Speaker 9: a Nazi. Never to my knowledge did he say those 157 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 9: kinds of things. He was a loner. He just wasn't 158 00:10:59,296 --> 00:11:04,076 Speaker 9: you know, an anti-Semite. Although he could perform it, but 159 00:11:04,116 --> 00:11:06,906 Speaker 9: then the question is, if you perform it, then maybe 160 00:11:06,946 --> 00:11:07,266 Speaker 9: you are. 161 00:11:08,746 --> 00:11:11,386 Speaker 2: Reading through the letters Mickey sent Linda, I saw a 162 00:11:11,486 --> 00:11:15,886 Speaker 2: number of references to David Renson. The person Mickey feared 163 00:11:15,926 --> 00:11:18,786 Speaker 2: was going to expose him in the pages of California 164 00:11:18,836 --> 00:11:23,256 Speaker 2: Magazine back in the early 80s. When I was with Linda, 165 00:11:23,656 --> 00:11:26,536 Speaker 2: she brought out this binder of letters that Mickey had 166 00:11:26,576 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 2: sent her. And I took pictures of a bunch of them, 167 00:11:32,576 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 2: and it was okay with her. And in reading through them, 168 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:39,616 Speaker 2: I have to tell you, I came across some references 169 00:11:39,696 --> 00:11:45,246 Speaker 2: that I found really toxic that he made, and I 170 00:11:45,546 --> 00:11:47,466 Speaker 2: think they were about you, but I'm not sure. 171 00:11:47,486 --> 00:11:52,386 Speaker 9: Is this the one where you call me a third-rate carpetbagger? 172 00:11:52,406 --> 00:11:56,366 Speaker 1: Well, I can show you. He doesn't say your name, 173 00:11:56,546 --> 00:11:58,146 Speaker 1: so I don't know. 174 00:11:58,166 --> 00:11:58,746 Speaker 9: Yeah, I'd like to know. 175 00:11:59,026 --> 00:11:59,526 Speaker 2: For sure. 176 00:11:59,546 --> 00:12:02,086 Speaker 9: Yeah, I may have seen that. What's that second paragraph there? 177 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 9: Fat Jew from New York has spent six months researching 178 00:12:09,596 --> 00:12:12,976 Speaker 9: my life. Huge anticipated article will be published in July 179 00:12:13,016 --> 00:12:17,556 Speaker 9: for OK. Has been bugging my asshole father and other assholes. 180 00:12:18,136 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 9: This guy's going frantic to locate my whereabouts. So far 181 00:12:20,656 --> 00:12:24,226 Speaker 9: I'm safe. Snooper's talking to everyone I hate, including guess who? 182 00:12:25,386 --> 00:12:35,426 Speaker 9: None other than the pirate captain. Yeah, okay, well, it's toxic, 183 00:12:35,706 --> 00:12:37,586 Speaker 9: but so fucking what? 184 00:12:40,266 --> 00:12:41,126 Speaker 1: It gets uglier. 185 00:12:42,526 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 2: Mickey wrote to Linda, quote, We both knew that some 186 00:12:45,976 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 2: hook-nose MF would sniff out a story one day. He 187 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 2: also wrote that the pirate captain, Don Wilson, Linda's ex, 188 00:12:54,156 --> 00:12:58,036 Speaker 2: who talked to Renson, quote, kissed the feet of this 189 00:12:58,176 --> 00:13:02,796 Speaker 2: Jew bastard. And then, when the article was optioned by 190 00:13:02,846 --> 00:13:07,586 Speaker 2: the producer David Geffen, Mickey wrote, quote, I found out 191 00:13:07,746 --> 00:13:12,646 Speaker 2: some beady-eyed, copulating Jew faggot has bought my life story 192 00:13:12,786 --> 00:13:15,346 Speaker 2: from the other Jew and are making my life into 193 00:13:15,386 --> 00:13:22,416 Speaker 2: a film starring another well-favored, bright-eyed Jew. If they want information, 194 00:13:22,776 --> 00:13:29,596 Speaker 2: talk to the rats. Unquote. This is clearly not punk news. 195 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:35,076 Speaker 2: not a pose, not a middle finger to society. This 196 00:13:35,656 --> 00:13:41,656 Speaker 2: is raw bigotry. As David absorbs the letters, I feel 197 00:13:41,696 --> 00:13:46,896 Speaker 2: him processing this question of whether Mickey is performing anti-Semitism 198 00:13:47,816 --> 00:13:48,896 Speaker 2: or expressing it. 199 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:52,656 Speaker 9: People ask me how I can celebrate Mickey Dora, you know, 200 00:13:53,296 --> 00:13:57,466 Speaker 9: but I don't think I'm celebrating him. I mean, unless 201 00:13:57,526 --> 00:14:01,266 Speaker 9: the act of writing about somebody is celebration. I mean, 202 00:14:01,286 --> 00:14:04,766 Speaker 9: he's a two-bit hustler to some people, and he's God 203 00:14:04,826 --> 00:14:08,586 Speaker 9: on a surfboard to other people. I just thought it 204 00:14:08,626 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 9: was an interesting story to tell. 205 00:14:09,936 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 1: I agree with you. 206 00:14:13,656 --> 00:14:15,576 Speaker 9: Yeah, well, I'm glad you showed me those letters, because 207 00:14:17,936 --> 00:14:19,916 Speaker 9: Mickey was a nasty piece of work at times. 208 00:14:21,326 --> 00:14:24,806 Speaker 2: It's subtle, but it literally feels like a change has 209 00:14:24,866 --> 00:14:28,906 Speaker 2: come over David. like he's revising his opinion in real 210 00:14:28,946 --> 00:14:33,046 Speaker 2: time in front of me. And there's this other feeling. 211 00:14:34,026 --> 00:14:34,806 Speaker 1: Disappointment. 212 00:14:35,966 --> 00:14:38,266 Speaker 2: Mickey didn't even say his name. 213 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,376 Speaker 1: He reduced him to a slur. 214 00:14:42,996 --> 00:14:48,976 Speaker 9: I've really, I've lost weight, Mickey. You just can't take 215 00:14:48,996 --> 00:14:52,976 Speaker 9: this stuff personally. I mean, it sucks, but I mean, 216 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:56,416 Speaker 9: it just shows, you know, he, He was anti-Semitic when 217 00:14:56,456 --> 00:15:01,396 Speaker 9: it suited him. So I, you know, and I wouldn't 218 00:15:01,436 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 9: be his friend. 219 00:15:03,536 --> 00:15:07,786 Speaker 2: David's thinking. Still trying to make sense of his subject. 220 00:15:07,786 --> 00:15:10,486 Speaker 2: 20 plus years after his death. 221 00:15:12,246 --> 00:15:15,006 Speaker 9: Somebody said to me that they listened to Mickey and 222 00:15:15,026 --> 00:15:18,926 Speaker 9: what he said sounded great, made no sense at all. And, 223 00:15:19,326 --> 00:15:23,096 Speaker 9: you know, when you're somebody's hero, you're more willing to 224 00:15:23,116 --> 00:15:23,976 Speaker 9: give them a break. 225 00:15:23,736 --> 00:15:42,546 Speaker 2: Than Mickey and Linda's romance played out across a dozen 226 00:15:42,606 --> 00:15:46,786 Speaker 2: countries in hotel rooms and hideouts and campgrounds. They were 227 00:15:46,826 --> 00:15:50,146 Speaker 2: chasing the surf, living by their wits, and getting away 228 00:15:50,186 --> 00:15:53,866 Speaker 2: with it. Stealing from the market for breakfast and dining 229 00:15:53,886 --> 00:15:55,226 Speaker 2: with the Rothschilds for lunch. 230 00:15:56,126 --> 00:15:58,206 Speaker 1: They did exactly as they pleased. 231 00:15:59,246 --> 00:16:05,146 Speaker 2: Mickey thought this made them free. But Linda found out nothing. 232 00:16:05,086 --> 00:16:05,686 Speaker 1: Is for free. 233 00:16:07,206 --> 00:16:11,326 Speaker 2: Is there anything that you... sort of took away from 234 00:16:11,366 --> 00:16:14,166 Speaker 2: your relationship with Mickey when you reflect. 235 00:16:13,906 --> 00:16:14,526 Speaker 1: Back on it? 236 00:16:15,586 --> 00:16:21,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say I, I used to be very, very trusting. And, um, 237 00:16:22,576 --> 00:16:26,936 Speaker 3: I think now I really, um, look at stuff twice 238 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:36,136 Speaker 3: or three times or four times, you know, to be sure. Um, yeah, it's, 239 00:16:36,296 --> 00:16:40,096 Speaker 3: it's a hard one to, to really, um, Go deep 240 00:16:40,136 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 3: into that. It's like the love thing, you know? Like, 241 00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:44,716 Speaker 3: what is it? 242 00:16:48,056 --> 00:16:51,296 Speaker 2: Linda says there was a moment in 1976 when she 243 00:16:51,416 --> 00:16:55,756 Speaker 2: saw Mickey clearly and could never unsee him. They were 244 00:16:55,796 --> 00:16:59,456 Speaker 2: on the run from the FBI, and Linda needed Mickey's help. 245 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 3: We were coming back from, I think it was Kenya, 246 00:17:05,336 --> 00:17:11,216 Speaker 3: and we flew into— we were in Europe— And I was sick. 247 00:17:11,816 --> 00:17:12,916 Speaker 3: I couldn't hold anything down. 248 00:17:14,176 --> 00:17:16,896 Speaker 2: This was when they stopped in Germany and Mickey bought 249 00:17:16,956 --> 00:17:19,936 Speaker 2: his dark green Mercedes camper van. They were on their 250 00:17:19,956 --> 00:17:21,906 Speaker 2: way to France to disappear. 251 00:17:21,926 --> 00:17:27,166 Speaker 3: I was losing weight. I couldn't eat. I was throwing 252 00:17:27,266 --> 00:17:34,866 Speaker 3: up every morning. And Mickey was not very sympathetic. It 253 00:17:34,906 --> 00:17:39,476 Speaker 3: was like, you deal with your problems. He kept giving 254 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:44,256 Speaker 3: me this German Undenburg, which you take. If you've had 255 00:17:44,296 --> 00:17:47,536 Speaker 3: a hangover and you're sick to your stomach, you down 256 00:17:47,576 --> 00:17:50,496 Speaker 3: this stuff. It was horrible. He gave me a couple 257 00:17:50,516 --> 00:17:53,486 Speaker 3: of those, and I was sicker. And I said, this 258 00:17:53,546 --> 00:17:59,846 Speaker 3: is not a hangover. I said, I'm pregnant. Because I 259 00:17:59,886 --> 00:18:03,146 Speaker 3: was missing periods, and I knew the symptoms. I was 260 00:18:03,166 --> 00:18:08,426 Speaker 3: having morning sickness. And I said, this is pregnancy, you know. Well, 261 00:18:09,526 --> 00:18:10,286 Speaker 3: Mickey wasn't happy. 262 00:18:11,386 --> 00:18:11,646 Speaker 8: Why? 263 00:18:13,186 --> 00:18:15,976 Speaker 3: Mickey's thing was always, his little comment was, you'll ruin 264 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 3: the trip. If I didn't do something, you're going to 265 00:18:20,136 --> 00:18:20,696 Speaker 3: ruin the trip. 266 00:18:21,316 --> 00:18:22,056 Speaker 1: By being pregnant. 267 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:22,736 Speaker 10: Yeah. 268 00:18:24,256 --> 00:18:26,916 Speaker 2: She was pregnant, on the run, and living in a 269 00:18:26,936 --> 00:18:30,666 Speaker 2: camper van. And add to that, her passport had been stolen. 270 00:18:31,526 --> 00:18:33,586 Speaker 2: And Mickey wasn't there for her. 271 00:18:33,606 --> 00:18:34,886 Speaker 1: I was scared. 272 00:18:34,906 --> 00:18:39,416 Speaker 3: I was scared. I was scared, you know, because when 273 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:43,186 Speaker 3: that happens like that, you're on your own, man. You know, 274 00:18:43,226 --> 00:18:46,766 Speaker 3: you're not married, you're not in a house, you're on 275 00:18:46,806 --> 00:18:51,206 Speaker 3: the road, you don't even have the right ID, your, 276 00:18:51,226 --> 00:19:01,106 Speaker 3: you know, money. It's not an environment where you want 277 00:19:01,186 --> 00:19:06,086 Speaker 3: to have a child come, period. This was real, real. 278 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:09,056 Speaker 3: Um, scary. 279 00:19:09,936 --> 00:19:11,916 Speaker 2: And you couldn't raise a kid with Mickey if Mickey 280 00:19:11,936 --> 00:19:12,916 Speaker 2: didn't want to raise a kid? 281 00:19:13,296 --> 00:19:13,496 Speaker 10: No. 282 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:18,936 Speaker 2: Linda won't say exactly what happened with the baby, but 283 00:19:18,976 --> 00:19:23,296 Speaker 2: she does tell me why Mickey didn't want a child. Clearly, 284 00:19:23,316 --> 00:19:27,366 Speaker 2: a baby would have complicated their international surf bandit plans. 285 00:19:28,446 --> 00:19:31,946 Speaker 2: But Mickey's reluctance to become a father came from a deeper, 286 00:19:32,346 --> 00:19:33,566 Speaker 2: more tortured place. 287 00:19:34,906 --> 00:19:44,936 Speaker 3: Mickey was worried about a child. especially a girl, that 288 00:19:45,156 --> 00:19:48,216 Speaker 3: she would be abused in the future by people trying 289 00:19:48,236 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 3: to get back at him. And he even said, you know, 290 00:19:53,896 --> 00:19:56,596 Speaker 3: he said, a boy, he said, I don't care, you know, 291 00:19:56,636 --> 00:20:00,356 Speaker 3: let him get his ass kicked, you know. a son 292 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:03,276 Speaker 3: would be like, okay, it's your turn now to figure 293 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:08,376 Speaker 3: it out. A daughter, he was like very, very worried. 294 00:20:09,036 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 3: He said, some asshole is going to come along and 295 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:16,326 Speaker 3: fuck her and get her pregnant just to get back 296 00:20:16,366 --> 00:20:16,546 Speaker 3: at me. 297 00:20:18,026 --> 00:20:20,616 Speaker 2: This makes Mickey seem truly sad. 298 00:20:21,266 --> 00:20:21,586 Speaker 5: Sick. 299 00:20:23,166 --> 00:20:28,166 Speaker 2: Unless it was just his excuse. Linda broke up with 300 00:20:28,226 --> 00:20:32,326 Speaker 2: Mickey for good in 1980, not long before Mickey was arrested. 301 00:20:33,386 --> 00:20:36,206 Speaker 2: Linda went to Ireland and spent years living in a 302 00:20:36,286 --> 00:20:40,976 Speaker 2: rusted-out VW on a desolate beach, purging Mickey from her system. 303 00:20:41,826 --> 00:20:45,496 Speaker 2: He visited her sometimes, but Ireland was too cold for him. 304 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:48,516 Speaker 2: He begged her to join him in South Africa. 305 00:20:49,846 --> 00:20:52,526 Speaker 3: Found the perfect right point. Jeffries Bay, come. 306 00:20:55,246 --> 00:20:55,786 Speaker 7: Couldn't move me. 307 00:20:55,846 --> 00:21:01,926 Speaker 3: I was stuck. Love was gone. That wasn't love, but, 308 00:21:02,086 --> 00:21:03,806 Speaker 3: you know, there was something. Fascination. 309 00:21:04,026 --> 00:21:04,246 Speaker 6: Yeah. 310 00:21:04,726 --> 00:21:07,406 Speaker 3: The fascination. There it is. The fascination was gone. 311 00:21:09,176 --> 00:21:13,016 Speaker 2: Mickey wanted to rekindle what they had, but Linda had 312 00:21:13,136 --> 00:21:15,096 Speaker 2: reached her limit long ago. 313 00:21:15,116 --> 00:21:17,006 Speaker 5: I think I. 314 00:21:20,596 --> 00:21:25,256 Speaker 3: Saw too much. You know, I was experiencing too much 315 00:21:25,296 --> 00:21:27,126 Speaker 3: and I was done. You know, I wanted to just 316 00:21:27,836 --> 00:21:30,786 Speaker 3: be calm. And it wasn't going to be New Zealand 317 00:21:30,806 --> 00:21:32,686 Speaker 3: and it wasn't going to be France and it wasn't 318 00:21:32,726 --> 00:21:33,886 Speaker 3: going to be Jeffreys Bay. 319 00:21:35,466 --> 00:21:39,086 Speaker 2: Mickey put her through a lot. As exhilarating as their 320 00:21:39,146 --> 00:21:41,826 Speaker 2: shared adventure was, it was exhausting. 321 00:21:42,586 --> 00:21:44,026 Speaker 1: He was exhausting. 322 00:21:45,266 --> 00:21:48,506 Speaker 2: For a long time, she'd believed they were pursuing freedom. 323 00:21:48,526 --> 00:21:49,176 Speaker 3: Together. 324 00:21:49,196 --> 00:21:49,526 Speaker 5: Together. 325 00:21:50,566 --> 00:21:58,956 Speaker 2: Then she realized he was only for himself. I'm going 326 00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 2: to ask you to read this little passage at the 327 00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:07,096 Speaker 2: end of your book, and then sort of, you know, 328 00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:08,696 Speaker 2: people can do what they want with it. 329 00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:09,096 Speaker 10: Yes. 330 00:22:10,536 --> 00:22:13,626 Speaker 2: I pass Linda a copy of her book, The Surf Sting. 331 00:22:14,306 --> 00:22:16,906 Speaker 2: It's an account of her adventures with Mickey Dora and 332 00:22:16,966 --> 00:22:20,946 Speaker 2: Don Wilson, the pirate captain. I circled it right there. 333 00:22:20,966 --> 00:22:25,406 Speaker 3: Do you need reading glasses? They're the blue. 334 00:22:27,686 --> 00:22:29,866 Speaker 2: This is a passage that comes right at the end. 335 00:22:30,466 --> 00:22:32,726 Speaker 2: It's set apart from the rest of the text in 336 00:22:32,766 --> 00:22:33,826 Speaker 2: a larger typeface. 337 00:22:35,246 --> 00:22:40,266 Speaker 3: Nicola, she's beautiful. Dark brown curly hair, big brown eyes, 338 00:22:40,386 --> 00:22:45,106 Speaker 3: almost gypsy looking, maybe a bit Italian. She's a young 339 00:22:45,146 --> 00:22:49,206 Speaker 3: woman now, speaks three languages, raised by a wealthy... and 340 00:22:49,306 --> 00:22:51,686 Speaker 3: prominent wine connoisseur. Does she surf? 341 00:22:52,176 --> 00:22:52,496 Speaker 10: Maybe. 342 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:57,196 Speaker 3: She definitely skis. Any pictures? What for? You might get 343 00:22:57,256 --> 00:23:01,576 Speaker 3: lucky and meet her sometime. Any more questions? Nobody bothered 344 00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:04,906 Speaker 3: to ask Mickey. I didn't have to. I was there. 345 00:23:09,286 --> 00:23:13,506 Speaker 3: It is what it is. Bittersweet. 346 00:23:16,686 --> 00:23:21,066 Speaker 2: It's bittersweet because the life she's just described, Micola's life, 347 00:23:21,506 --> 00:23:23,266 Speaker 2: sounds wonderful in many ways. 348 00:23:24,286 --> 00:23:26,936 Speaker 1: Wherever she is, whoever she is. 349 00:23:28,296 --> 00:23:31,476 Speaker 2: But I can't help thinking of all that Linda lost, 350 00:23:32,356 --> 00:23:37,296 Speaker 2: sacrificed for Mickey's fear and selfishness. That could make a 351 00:23:37,336 --> 00:23:39,546 Speaker 2: person fall right out of love. 352 00:23:40,746 --> 00:23:44,846 Speaker 3: It wasn't about love. I don't think it ever was. 353 00:23:46,876 --> 00:23:50,576 Speaker 3: Because love, what is love? I mean, what's the definition 354 00:23:50,616 --> 00:23:54,076 Speaker 3: of love? You have to, I mean, love can be 355 00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:57,676 Speaker 3: different for everybody. I don't think it's something you can 356 00:23:57,756 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 3: really say, this is how it works, you know? Because 357 00:24:01,816 --> 00:24:05,226 Speaker 3: I love my husband. My husband is just the pickle. 358 00:24:08,066 --> 00:24:11,586 Speaker 3: And I would have never had that with Mickey or Don, period. 359 00:24:12,226 --> 00:24:12,986 Speaker 3: I know that for sure. 360 00:24:14,986 --> 00:24:16,496 Speaker 1: Did you have.... 361 00:24:17,926 --> 00:24:19,046 Speaker 2: Other kids in your life? 362 00:24:19,386 --> 00:24:25,206 Speaker 3: No. But my husband has two boys. They're both very, 363 00:24:25,286 --> 00:24:28,526 Speaker 3: very good, good kids. He raised them well. And it's 364 00:24:28,546 --> 00:24:30,936 Speaker 3: funny because I think about if I had a kid 365 00:24:30,976 --> 00:24:36,716 Speaker 3: with them, it would have been wonderful, you know. But 366 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:42,886 Speaker 3: life can bite you sometimes, big time. It's funny too 367 00:24:42,946 --> 00:24:48,096 Speaker 3: because my mom, when I told her, you know, She 368 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:51,576 Speaker 3: was so mad at me. She said, I would have 369 00:24:51,626 --> 00:24:58,446 Speaker 3: raised her. I would have raised my grandchild. And I said, Mom, 370 00:24:58,486 --> 00:25:01,486 Speaker 3: it wasn't like that. I said, you couldn't just have 371 00:25:01,586 --> 00:25:06,786 Speaker 3: her here because somebody would know who she was, you know. 372 00:25:06,806 --> 00:25:09,366 Speaker 3: I said, it wouldn't work. 373 00:25:12,566 --> 00:25:18,456 Speaker 2: This is Linda's regret, that she believed Mickey. bought in 374 00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:21,916 Speaker 2: for a time to his dark view of the world. 375 00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:28,126 Speaker 2: Back then, she couldn't see beyond it. And now, she 376 00:25:28,186 --> 00:25:29,286 Speaker 2: has no daughter. 377 00:25:30,586 --> 00:25:31,546 Speaker 1: But it's okay. 378 00:25:32,946 --> 00:25:36,046 Speaker 3: It's all hard. Everything was fun and breezy and nice, 379 00:25:36,226 --> 00:25:38,806 Speaker 3: and then that was the hard part. So you get 380 00:25:38,826 --> 00:25:43,166 Speaker 3: slapped in the end, you know? In some way, you'll pay. 381 00:25:43,186 --> 00:25:48,866 Speaker 3: I paid the price. Not nice. 382 00:25:52,786 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 2: The promise of the Mickey and Linda adventure had been 383 00:25:55,776 --> 00:25:58,976 Speaker 2: that it would all be free. They would travel and 384 00:25:59,136 --> 00:26:02,676 Speaker 2: surf and not have to work. The lifestyle would be free, 385 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:07,646 Speaker 2: and they would be free. But it didn't really turn 386 00:26:07,726 --> 00:26:11,546 Speaker 2: out that way. So I was going to ask you, 387 00:26:11,666 --> 00:26:14,546 Speaker 2: but I think you may have just answered this, what 388 00:26:14,666 --> 00:26:16,266 Speaker 2: these adventures cost you. 389 00:26:20,246 --> 00:26:21,106 Speaker 3: Talk to my daughter. 390 00:26:22,806 --> 00:26:23,046 Speaker 8: Yeah. 391 00:26:27,426 --> 00:26:32,176 Speaker 3: Which would have been very amazing, you know, to have 392 00:26:32,216 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 3: brought her here. But it's okay. She's free and easy. 393 00:26:42,156 --> 00:26:43,036 Speaker 1: Mickey paid, too. 394 00:26:43,816 --> 00:26:47,276 Speaker 2: He went to prison. But he never grew up the 395 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:51,646 Speaker 2: way Linda did. He never had to. He continued to 396 00:26:51,686 --> 00:26:55,166 Speaker 2: write her letters from the ends of the earth. Wherever 397 00:26:55,206 --> 00:26:59,196 Speaker 2: he was, he referred to it as Never Never Land. 398 00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:24,896 Speaker 2: Mickey will always represent the worst impulses of surf culture, 399 00:27:25,536 --> 00:27:30,646 Speaker 2: the pull toward exclusion and xenophobia. But the surf media 400 00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:34,246 Speaker 2: that fanned Mickey's legend has never forsaken him. 401 00:27:35,406 --> 00:27:39,006 Speaker 11: How hard is it to just say, gee, this guy 402 00:27:39,066 --> 00:27:41,386 Speaker 11: who died a long time ago, who was just a 403 00:27:41,446 --> 00:27:43,646 Speaker 11: good surfer in the 50s, that's all he was, was 404 00:27:43,686 --> 00:27:46,886 Speaker 11: a handsome guy who was a good surfer. said some 405 00:27:46,926 --> 00:27:50,606 Speaker 11: really nasty, gross things that suggest really dark hatreds in 406 00:27:50,646 --> 00:27:50,986 Speaker 11: his heart. 407 00:27:51,926 --> 00:27:54,226 Speaker 2: Writer and surfer Dan Duane again. 408 00:27:55,366 --> 00:27:58,566 Speaker 11: That question to myself is, right? 409 00:27:59,936 --> 00:28:00,776 Speaker 4: What is the big deal? 410 00:28:00,856 --> 00:28:02,416 Speaker 11: Why is it so hard to say that was kind 411 00:28:02,436 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 11: of gross? Maybe we shouldn't worship that guy anymore. Why 412 00:28:06,416 --> 00:28:09,616 Speaker 11: can't we just say it's painful? Why can't we just 413 00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:13,446 Speaker 11: say it's hateful? This is not a big lift. This 414 00:28:13,526 --> 00:28:16,776 Speaker 11: is not a high bar. You know, you don't have 415 00:28:16,816 --> 00:28:19,596 Speaker 11: to be a conspiracy theorist to connect the dots around this. 416 00:28:20,976 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 2: Surfing now is so much bigger than when Mickey was 417 00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:28,096 Speaker 2: in his prime. And that, Dan says, is a good thing. 418 00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:34,616 Speaker 11: This is a global culture. And more and more, it's 419 00:28:34,656 --> 00:28:38,996 Speaker 11: an everybody culture. In a kind of a beautiful way 420 00:28:39,096 --> 00:28:40,826 Speaker 11: like that's better that way for it to be an 421 00:28:40,906 --> 00:28:43,966 Speaker 11: everybody culture i'm glad it's an everybody culture i don't 422 00:28:44,006 --> 00:28:45,846 Speaker 11: want to go back to when it's not an everybody 423 00:28:45,886 --> 00:28:47,366 Speaker 11: culture i didn't like it. 424 00:28:47,346 --> 00:28:50,716 Speaker 2: More that way and when i think of an everybody 425 00:28:50,776 --> 00:28:54,916 Speaker 2: culture i know that doesn't come from mickey it comes 426 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:57,456 Speaker 2: from a spunky 15 year old who didn't let a 427 00:28:57,536 --> 00:29:01,286 Speaker 2: few pineapples in the face get between her and the waves. 428 00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 8: Oh no, back again? 429 00:29:04,656 --> 00:29:05,576 Speaker 10: Any objections? 430 00:29:06,036 --> 00:29:07,436 Speaker 1: You want me to reel off the whole list? 431 00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:09,596 Speaker 8: Go ahead, then I might start. 432 00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:15,556 Speaker 2: Mickey blamed Gidget for ruining Malibu. But I have to disagree. 433 00:29:15,576 --> 00:29:19,866 Speaker 2: I think Mickey ruined Malibu by treating it like it 434 00:29:19,906 --> 00:29:23,086 Speaker 2: belonged to him and trying to scare everyone else away. 435 00:29:26,646 --> 00:29:29,866 Speaker 2: There's a thread that seems to lead from Kathy's identity 436 00:29:30,066 --> 00:29:33,536 Speaker 2: and her family's history in Hollywood. to the popularization of 437 00:29:33,636 --> 00:29:37,846 Speaker 2: surfing and Mickey's vitriol about all of it. Not to 438 00:29:37,886 --> 00:29:41,686 Speaker 2: mention Mickey's SS leather trench coat and the swastika on 439 00:29:41,726 --> 00:29:50,936 Speaker 2: his surfboard. Did he express specific frustration about Gidget? 440 00:29:53,296 --> 00:29:57,016 Speaker 3: Yeah, he didn't like the whole thing because it was 441 00:29:57,096 --> 00:30:01,256 Speaker 3: the start. It threw everything up into the air and 442 00:30:01,296 --> 00:30:06,096 Speaker 3: everybody had a look, you know. And he never liked her. 443 00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:10,586 Speaker 3: He always had to kind of a racist attitude. 444 00:30:12,666 --> 00:30:13,586 Speaker 1: Because she was Jewish? 445 00:30:14,046 --> 00:30:16,386 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he used to like to throw that around. 446 00:30:17,826 --> 00:30:18,086 Speaker 4: True. 447 00:30:18,976 --> 00:30:22,896 Speaker 2: The Gidget movie, with its daffy blonde starlet, isn't really 448 00:30:22,956 --> 00:30:27,436 Speaker 2: what surfing's all about. But Gidget the person, an intrepid 449 00:30:27,476 --> 00:30:30,096 Speaker 2: Jewish girl who insisted that the guys on the beach 450 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:34,656 Speaker 2: accept her, is the living proof that surfing doesn't belong 451 00:30:34,796 --> 00:30:37,596 Speaker 2: to the Gard Chapins and Mickey Doras of the world. 452 00:30:38,896 --> 00:30:42,506 Speaker 7: It added the women to the surfing community, which was 453 00:30:42,566 --> 00:30:44,366 Speaker 7: really unheard of back then. 454 00:30:45,846 --> 00:30:48,146 Speaker 2: Former Malibu lifeguard Henry Ford. 455 00:30:49,126 --> 00:30:51,896 Speaker 7: There were very few women in those early days that 456 00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:55,376 Speaker 7: came down, and I think Gidget opened that up. Kathy 457 00:30:55,496 --> 00:30:58,256 Speaker 7: opened that door for a lot of women, and women 458 00:30:58,296 --> 00:31:01,536 Speaker 7: became part of the surfing community. And now, almost any 459 00:31:01,576 --> 00:31:03,476 Speaker 7: day you paddle out at any of the surf spots, 460 00:31:03,636 --> 00:31:07,556 Speaker 7: you'll see at least at least a third of the 461 00:31:07,596 --> 00:31:11,056 Speaker 7: people in the water are women nowadays. Maybe even more, 462 00:31:12,056 --> 00:31:15,496 Speaker 7: depending on where you are. So I think that it 463 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:19,676 Speaker 7: started with Kathy and those films and moving forward. 464 00:31:21,256 --> 00:31:24,996 Speaker 2: Mickey and Kathy were from the same world of European émigrés. 465 00:31:25,596 --> 00:31:29,136 Speaker 2: They met and found fame on the same beach in Malibu, 466 00:31:29,626 --> 00:31:35,236 Speaker 2: riding the same waves. Mickey vanished, and by disappearing, became 467 00:31:35,256 --> 00:31:39,906 Speaker 2: the most legendary surfer of all time. Kathy stayed put, 468 00:31:40,726 --> 00:31:43,646 Speaker 2: but she was more or less forgotten after her reputation 469 00:31:43,686 --> 00:31:48,306 Speaker 2: in the surf world was destroyed. Mickey said Gidget. 470 00:31:48,066 --> 00:31:49,386 Speaker 1: Was what was wrong with surfing. 471 00:31:50,486 --> 00:31:54,306 Speaker 2: But finally, people are starting to recognize that she represents 472 00:31:54,636 --> 00:31:55,526 Speaker 2: what's right about it. 473 00:31:55,526 --> 00:32:02,906 Speaker 12: I'm Kathy, Gidget. we have at the California Surf Museum. 474 00:32:02,926 --> 00:32:06,706 Speaker 12: We'd like to give you the Silver Surfer Award. So 475 00:32:06,766 --> 00:32:07,886 Speaker 12: let's hear it for the Gidget. 476 00:32:10,606 --> 00:32:15,766 Speaker 2: That's Jim Kempton again. Back in November 2022, the California 477 00:32:15,806 --> 00:32:19,236 Speaker 2: Surf Museum honored Kathy with a Lifetime Achievement Award for 478 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:21,196 Speaker 2: her contributions to the surf industry. 479 00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:25,136 Speaker 12: I give you the one and only Kathy Conner Zuckerman, a.k.a. 480 00:32:25,176 --> 00:32:25,756 Speaker 1: The Real Gidget. 481 00:32:26,296 --> 00:32:26,576 Speaker 8: Thank you. 482 00:32:31,526 --> 00:32:34,076 Speaker 10: They say keep company with those that make you feel better. 483 00:32:34,856 --> 00:32:39,276 Speaker 2: And honestly, this has been unbelievable. 484 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:40,416 Speaker 1: Like, you like me. 485 00:32:40,456 --> 00:32:47,446 Speaker 2: You really like me. Gidget opened the door for women 486 00:32:47,486 --> 00:32:51,346 Speaker 2: to surf. She gave them a template, an iconic figure 487 00:32:51,586 --> 00:32:53,566 Speaker 2: they could relate to and try to imitate. 488 00:32:55,186 --> 00:32:57,586 Speaker 3: I loved Gidget the TV show as a kid. Like, 489 00:32:57,686 --> 00:32:59,226 Speaker 3: I always, the Sally Field. 490 00:32:59,046 --> 00:32:59,296 Speaker 10: And even the. 491 00:32:59,706 --> 00:33:04,746 Speaker 2: In Accidental Icon, a 2010 documentary about Kathy's life, many 492 00:33:04,806 --> 00:33:09,376 Speaker 2: professional female surfers credited the Gidget franchise with making surfing 493 00:33:09,576 --> 00:33:11,376 Speaker 2: a more welcoming sport for women. 494 00:33:11,396 --> 00:33:16,966 Speaker 5: I grew up seeing images of Gidget surfing on TV, 495 00:33:17,006 --> 00:33:19,586 Speaker 5: and she's the only woman that I ever saw surfing 496 00:33:19,646 --> 00:33:22,216 Speaker 5: on TV. And it never occurred to me that girls 497 00:33:22,256 --> 00:33:24,776 Speaker 5: didn't surf until I was a teenager and looked around 498 00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:26,936 Speaker 5: in the lineup and saw that I was the only one. 499 00:33:27,056 --> 00:33:28,676 Speaker 4: You know, I used to watch all those movies when 500 00:33:28,716 --> 00:33:31,096 Speaker 4: I was a kid and just, like, fantasize about the 501 00:33:31,116 --> 00:33:33,626 Speaker 4: whole beach life. And when I got to, you know, 502 00:33:33,666 --> 00:33:36,506 Speaker 4: live it myself, it was awesome, you know? And without 503 00:33:36,526 --> 00:33:39,346 Speaker 4: her and without those movies, you know where surfing today 504 00:33:39,406 --> 00:33:39,766 Speaker 4: would be. 505 00:33:41,226 --> 00:33:44,866 Speaker 2: That last voice belongs to Cassia Meador. She's one of 506 00:33:44,906 --> 00:33:48,106 Speaker 2: the best longboarders in the world and a surf mentor 507 00:33:48,136 --> 00:33:51,976 Speaker 2: to me. A few times now, I've gone with Cassia 508 00:33:52,116 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 2: and her friend Leah Dawson, another amazing longboarder, to spend 509 00:33:56,116 --> 00:33:59,116 Speaker 2: a few days at San Onofre, that beach where Mickey 510 00:33:59,176 --> 00:34:03,396 Speaker 2: learned to surf. It's a bunch of women surfing and 511 00:34:03,456 --> 00:34:07,496 Speaker 2: camping and sitting around the fire pit. I don't think 512 00:34:07,536 --> 00:34:11,816 Speaker 2: I've heard anyone mention Gidget, but she's there, in the background, 513 00:34:12,356 --> 00:34:15,676 Speaker 2: in the subtext of the stories the women tell, of 514 00:34:15,716 --> 00:34:18,586 Speaker 2: how they learned to surf and kept at it. in 515 00:34:18,646 --> 00:34:20,806 Speaker 2: spite of all the things that might have made them 516 00:34:20,846 --> 00:34:26,406 Speaker 2: turn away. Because surfing is that fun. That worth it. 517 00:34:29,166 --> 00:34:31,796 Speaker 2: When I was pregnant with my second child, my husband 518 00:34:31,836 --> 00:34:36,316 Speaker 2: gave me a beautiful pink surfboard. He doesn't surf, but 519 00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:39,676 Speaker 2: he said he could picture me surfing, and he thought 520 00:34:39,736 --> 00:34:43,916 Speaker 2: I would love it. The baby was a girl, and 521 00:34:44,156 --> 00:34:46,376 Speaker 2: after she was born, my husband and I would take 522 00:34:46,416 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 2: her and her older brother to the beach. My husband 523 00:34:49,416 --> 00:34:51,206 Speaker 2: would play with the kids in the sand while I 524 00:34:51,246 --> 00:34:52,406 Speaker 2: messed around in the waves. 525 00:34:53,086 --> 00:34:53,866 Speaker 1: A happy kook. 526 00:34:55,206 --> 00:34:58,266 Speaker 2: I remember carrying my daughter on one hip and my 527 00:34:58,326 --> 00:35:03,046 Speaker 2: board on the other. She's 10 now, and of course, 528 00:35:03,406 --> 00:35:07,566 Speaker 2: she's a better surfer than I am. This is how 529 00:35:07,626 --> 00:35:14,196 Speaker 2: it's supposed to be. The divisions Mickey sewed still pop 530 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:18,576 Speaker 2: up like ugly weeds, but he was fighting the inevitable. 531 00:35:19,706 --> 00:35:21,796 Speaker 2: And I hope that by the time my daughter is 532 00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:25,576 Speaker 2: driving herself to the beach to surf, the signs telling 533 00:35:25,696 --> 00:35:30,636 Speaker 2: kooks to go home, the racial hate, the swastikas, that 534 00:35:30,676 --> 00:35:31,906 Speaker 2: will all just be. 535 00:35:31,816 --> 00:35:35,806 Speaker 1: A story to her. A story from the dark ages. 536 00:35:38,726 --> 00:35:41,246 Speaker 8: It was never going to be anything other than what's 537 00:35:41,286 --> 00:35:43,546 Speaker 8: sort of happening now, which is come one, come all. 538 00:35:44,556 --> 00:35:46,556 Speaker 1: Surf historian Matt Warshaw. 539 00:35:47,656 --> 00:35:52,736 Speaker 8: Because... Being in the ocean, riding waves, talking about riding 540 00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:57,936 Speaker 8: waves is a really fun, compelling, gorgeous thing to do. 541 00:35:58,656 --> 00:36:00,036 Speaker 8: And why shouldn't everybody do it? 542 00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:10,596 Speaker 2: Kathy doesn't surf anymore. She and Marv walk every day, 543 00:36:10,896 --> 00:36:13,996 Speaker 2: rain or shine, and often they go down to the beach. 544 00:36:14,736 --> 00:36:16,316 Speaker 2: She likes to watch the surfers. 545 00:36:17,726 --> 00:36:19,306 Speaker 10: You know, my husband and I went to the jetty 546 00:36:19,346 --> 00:36:22,826 Speaker 10: the other day and the water was like churning and 547 00:36:23,106 --> 00:36:26,326 Speaker 10: it was after the rain. And a guy comes in 548 00:36:26,346 --> 00:36:31,206 Speaker 10: a wetsuit by himself, throws his backpack down on the 549 00:36:31,226 --> 00:36:37,036 Speaker 10: sand and heads out to surf. And I was impressed 550 00:36:37,056 --> 00:36:41,796 Speaker 10: with that because that's what it was about. He just 551 00:36:41,816 --> 00:36:43,736 Speaker 10: went out for a ride. I want to ride. 552 00:36:43,756 --> 00:36:46,026 Speaker 3: And I know what I'm doing. 553 00:36:47,076 --> 00:36:49,576 Speaker 10: Uh, and that's, you know, what surfing to me is 554 00:36:49,616 --> 00:36:51,636 Speaker 10: all about. Am I going to catch this one or 555 00:36:51,696 --> 00:36:53,236 Speaker 10: am I going to hang back? Am I going to 556 00:36:53,256 --> 00:36:54,656 Speaker 10: catch it? Am I going to walk the nose? Am 557 00:36:54,696 --> 00:36:56,176 Speaker 10: I not going to walk the nose? It's you and 558 00:36:56,196 --> 00:37:02,656 Speaker 10: the element. It's you and the weather and the ocean, uh, 559 00:37:02,936 --> 00:37:05,856 Speaker 10: and a board and a board. And you know, it 560 00:37:05,916 --> 00:37:08,736 Speaker 10: doesn't have to be a fancy triple fin board. It 561 00:37:08,776 --> 00:37:11,496 Speaker 10: can be a long board, a short board, one fin, 562 00:37:11,556 --> 00:37:15,756 Speaker 10: little rocker, no rocker. Um, but it's you and the 563 00:37:15,796 --> 00:37:16,456 Speaker 10: board and the ocean. 564 00:37:19,436 --> 00:37:21,676 Speaker 2: What Kathy's saying reminds me of the end of her 565 00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:25,456 Speaker 2: father's novel, where Gidget sees a set rolling in and 566 00:37:25,496 --> 00:37:28,416 Speaker 2: grabs her board and heads for the ocean, leaving a 567 00:37:28,456 --> 00:37:31,686 Speaker 2: lot of drama with the big kahuna and moondoggy behind her. 568 00:37:32,826 --> 00:37:36,326 Speaker 1: She cheers herself on. Shoot it, Gidget. Shoot the curl. 569 00:37:37,466 --> 00:37:40,426 Speaker 1: And she does. It's powerful. 570 00:37:40,446 --> 00:37:41,266 Speaker 5: The book, yeah. 571 00:37:41,846 --> 00:37:42,606 Speaker 1: It's powerful. 572 00:37:42,986 --> 00:37:46,146 Speaker 10: So whatever you do, you can do it. Maybe that's 573 00:37:46,206 --> 00:37:50,066 Speaker 10: a broader message. But there's something really fun about just 574 00:37:50,126 --> 00:37:53,806 Speaker 10: getting away from paddling out. You just leave everything on 575 00:37:53,846 --> 00:37:54,946 Speaker 10: the sand, you know. 576 00:37:57,166 --> 00:37:59,726 Speaker 2: The last line of the book is, Maybe I was 577 00:37:59,806 --> 00:38:02,606 Speaker 2: just a woman in love with a surfboard. It's as 578 00:38:02,666 --> 00:38:08,866 Speaker 2: simple as that. Maybe it's always been that simple. Mickey 579 00:38:08,926 --> 00:38:12,966 Speaker 2: brought so much drama to surfing. And he left a 580 00:38:13,146 --> 00:38:16,106 Speaker 2: stain on the sport that has not yet been expunged. 581 00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:21,776 Speaker 2: Gidget's true contribution to surf culture was overlooked for decades. 582 00:38:22,736 --> 00:38:27,036 Speaker 2: She's not important because she helped make surfing popular. She's 583 00:38:27,096 --> 00:38:33,806 Speaker 2: important because she made surfing accessible. The ambassador of Aloha says, 584 00:38:34,306 --> 00:38:40,826 Speaker 2: come to the beach. The rightful king wasn't royal, and 585 00:38:40,846 --> 00:38:47,496 Speaker 2: he wasn't right. And whatever he once said, Malibu belongs 586 00:38:48,016 --> 00:39:16,126 Speaker 2: to everyone. This was Lost Hills, The Dark Prince. Lost Hills, 587 00:39:16,146 --> 00:39:19,646 Speaker 2: The Dark Prince is written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. 588 00:39:20,386 --> 00:39:24,986 Speaker 2: Sabrina Fang is the senior producer. Colin McNulty is the showrunner. 589 00:39:25,286 --> 00:39:28,926 Speaker 2: He also edited the show with Ben Adair. Sarah Dealy 590 00:39:29,026 --> 00:39:33,126 Speaker 2: is our production assistant. Original composition and sound design by 591 00:39:33,286 --> 00:39:37,866 Speaker 2: Alex McGinnis. Mixing by Alex McGinnis with help from Victoria Shifflett. 592 00:39:38,506 --> 00:39:39,226 Speaker 1: The Lost Hills. 593 00:39:39,236 --> 00:39:42,576 Speaker 2: Theme is by Dan Leone. Our cover art is by 594 00:39:42,616 --> 00:39:46,536 Speaker 2: Francesca Gabbiani. Ben Adair and I are the creators and 595 00:39:46,576 --> 00:39:52,436 Speaker 2: executive producers of Lost Hills. Executive producers for Pushkin Industries 596 00:39:52,686 --> 00:39:56,826 Speaker 2: are Jacob Weisberg, Lital Malad, Jacob Smith, and Sophie Crane. 597 00:39:57,586 --> 00:40:02,256 Speaker 2: Fact-checking by Arthur Gompertz. And thanks to the Pushkin team. 598 00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:07,936 Speaker 2: Farrah DeGrunge, Jake Flanagan, Heather Fane, John Schnarz, Greta Cohn, 599 00:40:08,516 --> 00:40:14,836 Speaker 2: Carly Migliore, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Isabella Navarez, Jordan McMillan, 600 00:40:15,176 --> 00:40:21,326 Speaker 2: Sean Carney, Royston Bezerve, Nicole Optenbosch, Maya Koenig, and Daniela Lacan. 601 00:40:22,706 --> 00:40:26,346 Speaker 2: Lost Hills is a production of Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. 602 00:40:27,116 --> 00:40:31,526 Speaker 2: You can sign up for Western Sound's newsletter at western-sound.com. 603 00:40:32,286 --> 00:40:37,926 Speaker 2: Pushkin's newsletter is at pushkin.fm. Follow at Lost Hills Pod 604 00:40:38,066 --> 00:40:41,226 Speaker 2: on social media, and please remember to rate and review 605 00:40:41,286 --> 00:40:44,916 Speaker 2: the show in your podcast app. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus, 606 00:40:45,066 --> 00:40:48,496 Speaker 2: and you can binge entire seasons of other podcasts right 607 00:40:48,536 --> 00:40:52,256 Speaker 2: now ad-free. Find Pushkin Plus on the Lost Hills show 608 00:40:52,276 --> 00:40:57,916 Speaker 2: page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.com. To find more 609 00:40:57,976 --> 00:41:02,316 Speaker 2: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 610 00:41:02,536 --> 00:41:03,836 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts.