1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Family Secrets as a production of I Heart Radio High 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Family Secrets Listeners. It's Danny here to share something I 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: think is really special. As we're hard at work creating 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: amazing new episodes for the seventh season of Family Secrets, 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: I am so excited to be able to share with 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: you an episode from one of my absolute favorite podcasts 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: which tells the story of my own family secret in 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: a way no one has done before. And that's because 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: Nora McNerney and her hit show Terrible Thanks for Asking, 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: is brilliant. She tells stories like no one else in 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a way. Nora is like the godmother of my show. 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: When I was first starting out and had no idea 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: how to create a podcast, I reached out to her 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: and she walked me through the process with so much 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: kindness and generosity. We've become friends. I adore her and 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: felt completely safe in this far reaching conversation was her. 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: So here's Terrible Thanks for Asking. Lacuna manuscripts a missing 18 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: piece of text, Lacuna music an extended silence in a 19 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: piece of music. Lacuna linguistics a lexical gap in a language. 20 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: Lacuna law the lack of law or of a legal 21 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: source addressing a situation Lacuna histology, a small space containing 22 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: an osteo syte. In bone, there's an uneasy sense a 23 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: person gets when something is missing, that gap in the text, 24 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: in music, in language, in law, in bone. We like 25 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: when the pieces fit together, and we like when we 26 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: have them all laid out neatly before us. And I 27 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: know that puzzle is a lazy metaphor to use, but 28 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to use it many times in this episode 29 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: because I love puzzles and I am not great at them, 30 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: but I know we like when pieces fit together in music, 31 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: in podcasts, in puzzles, in life. And today's episode is 32 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: about that gap, that chasm, that open and unfilled space, 33 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: and what happens when it finally all comes together. I'm 34 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: Nora McNerney, and this is terrible. Thanks for asking. And 35 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: this is Danny Shapiro. I remember so little about my childhood. 36 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: I think in part because I didn't have any witnesses 37 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: to it, and the two witnesses I did have to 38 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: it were my parents, and I was like a lost 39 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: to myself. UM didn't have a real sense of my 40 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: two feet on the ground like my I can't summon 41 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: what it felt like to be me as a child, 42 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: and that's been always true for me. I can remember 43 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: certain things or have certain flashes of images, but not 44 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: inhabit what it was to be me, you know, growing 45 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: up in this house in New Jersey with my two 46 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: parents and a lot of quiet, and you know, a 47 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: sense that there were secrets kind of hanging in the air, 48 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: and that there was just so much that I knew, 49 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: I knew, I didn't know, and I but you know 50 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: that feeling Nora, like that feeling of being lost to oneself, 51 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: feeling like other kids had a sense of their families, 52 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: in a sense of belonging in a sense of their 53 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: lives and of fitting in and of just having a 54 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: right to be there. I guess I would say I didn't. 55 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: I didn't have that. I did have a feeling somehow 56 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: of a kind of special nous because I was, in 57 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: one way or another, always being told that I was 58 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: somehow special. But you know, specialness in isolation is a 59 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: very strange and painful place to be. What does it 60 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: even mean? Mhm. That's such a good way to put it, 61 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: because what does it mean to be special? You're only 62 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: special in comparison to something. But if you don't know 63 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: what you're being compared to. What good does it do you? Yeah, 64 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean I felt like a hothouse flower, like I 65 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: would die under the wrong conditions. I was very shivered 66 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: over by both of my parents and by really all 67 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: of the adults around me who were related to me, 68 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: you know, really on my mother's side. But the feeling 69 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: that there was something very fragile about me and that 70 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: I might just kind of vanish, and that contributed to 71 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: that sense of special illness, you know, like like a 72 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: very delicate but perhaps not prepared for the elements in 73 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: some way, kind of little human being. Danny was the 74 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: only child of an Orthodox Jewish couple. She went to 75 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: a yeshiva, a Jewish day school, from kindergarten to seventh grade. 76 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: All around her were kids who dressed and prayed and 77 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: looked alike, and there was Danny. I was very fair, 78 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: sort of pink cheeked and blue eyed and very delicate looking, 79 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,119 Speaker 1: and a lot was made of that all the time, 80 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: both by my family and by other adults around me, 81 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: and by teachers and by other children. It really was 82 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: commented on all the time that I didn't look like 83 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: I was Jewish, and that I didn't look like I belonged, 84 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: and that somehow the the message underneath all that was 85 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: you're not one of us, and you're from someplace else entirely, 86 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, there was just this feeling of like complete 87 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: and utter being kind of alien, like an alien hothouse 88 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: flower creature. I think what made it even more complicated 89 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: is that I knew that it was meant as a compliment, 90 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: but it somehow felt like an insult. Because I adored 91 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: my father, I felt very much like being part of 92 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: his world and being part of his family was a 93 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: tethering kind of rooted thing. UM. I very much wanted 94 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: to feel that way, and I didn't feel that way 95 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: about my mother. I was not connected to her. UM 96 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: such a strange thing for a daughter to feel about 97 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: a mother. But we really were kind of like a 98 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: total mismatch, and I tried. I loved her, she was 99 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: my mother, but I didn't relate to her, and I 100 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: didn't feel that I was like her at all. I 101 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: felt like I was like my dad, and I wanted 102 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: to be part of his family. And so when somebody 103 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: would say to me, you don't look Jewish, or you 104 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,239 Speaker 1: don't you don't look like your cousins, or you don't 105 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: look like you belong in this group of people. It 106 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: would feel insulting to me or hurtful. But I did 107 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: understand that what they were saying is, oh, you're so pretty, 108 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: Oh you're so fair. Um, oh you you know you 109 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: look like you know, I mean in Judaism, and it's 110 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: a really it's tricky territory because there's kind of a 111 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: self hating aspect of that. You know, there's the the 112 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: realm of the the chicksa is the word that is 113 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: always used, and you know, Jewish boy ways are raised 114 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: to kind of stay away from but revere. You know, 115 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: the chicksa goddess. You see all of Woody Allen, you 116 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: see Philip Roth. And that's what I looked like. And 117 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: that was something that I was supposed to be flattered by, 118 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: but instead felt kind of that it was I didn't 119 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: understand it, and and it was hurtful to me in 120 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: some way. It is natural to want to fit in, 121 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: especially when fitting in means fitting into your family and 122 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: into your culture. And people who are lonely who want 123 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: to fit in do not need to be told the 124 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: ways that they don't fit. And when it is pointed out, 125 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: whether it is that your shoes are the wrong brand 126 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: or your hair is the wrong color. It wouldn't be 127 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: surprising if you wanted to throw your shoes in the 128 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: trash or grab a box of hair dye. But when 129 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: the thing that doesn't fit is just you in general, 130 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: and there's no way to chameleon yourself into the right form, 131 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: that feeling can just boomerang back into you. Just what, 132 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: and it's your problem now? And not fitting in is 133 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: Danny's problem. I absolutely internalized it and felt that there 134 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: must be something very wrong with me. And that is 135 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: something that I carried with me through my childhood. And 136 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that I wore it on 137 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: the surface. When I've encountered people who I went to 138 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: grade school with or I went to high school with, 139 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: they didn't see me that way, which I find completely fascinating. 140 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: They saw me as somehow confident or somehow you know, 141 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: are surprised by the degree to which I felt like 142 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: I didn't belong. I think I also had a pretty good, 143 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: a pretty solid mask or you know, a veneer um. 144 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't wear any of this on my sleeve. 145 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: There weren't the external things that sometimes happened with kids. 146 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't show my anxiety. I didn't have uh, 147 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, ticks. It was all much more subtle than that. 148 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: And I didn't talk to anybody about it. I wasn't 149 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: somebody who spoke a lot about my feelings. I kind 150 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: of buried them, and they just became more and more 151 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: toxic to me. I found this whole box of many, 152 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: many things that my mother saved, and it was like 153 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: the most radioactive box. And there was this one list 154 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: that my mother had clearly had me make and I 155 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: sign it and it's like a confession. It has a title, 156 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: and the title is six reasons of why I should 157 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: be happy. And I can't quote you the whole thing, 158 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: but the first, you know, on the list were things 159 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: like I have a dog, I have a mother who 160 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: drives me everywhere, I have everything I need. And this 161 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: was clearly an assignment that I was given of, you know, 162 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: coming up with reasons why I should be happy. And 163 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: the thing that was so striking about them, and it's 164 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: like in a child's handwriting. It couldn't have been more 165 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: than you know, six years old, seven years old. You know, 166 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: I have piano lessons, and it just felt like I 167 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: was almost being coached, like, here are reasons why you 168 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: should be happy, as opposed to let's understand what's really 169 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, let's explore why you could be sad, 170 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: right right, But it was never okay to be sad, 171 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: to be upset, to be angry. And so I think 172 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: I really learned like that, Veneer. I learned that there 173 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: was a kind of composure that I could And this 174 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: wasn't conscious. I mean, let me just be you know, 175 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: really clear. This was not something I sat down and thought, 176 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: how do I appear composed? It was more like composure 177 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: was survival um that if I could find a way 178 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: to sort of moved through the world and moved through 179 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: my family in a kind of composed way and not 180 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: reveal my my sorrow, my guilt, my fear, my anxiety, 181 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: that that was going to be you know, the way 182 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: through for me. It is a way through, but not 183 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: the healthiest way through, because that sorrow, that guilt, that fear, 184 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: that anxiety, they royal beneath her composed surface. Danny does 185 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: all of the right things in the right order, right 186 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: up until she's sent to college, and anyone who knew 187 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: me at Xavier University from two thousand to two thousand 188 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: and five can tell you that this is a period 189 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: in life where many of us, many of us try 190 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: on different versions of ourselves like paper dolls, trying to 191 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: see what fits and what will stick. But that feeling 192 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: that she's different, that she doesn't belong it stays unsaid, 193 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: and it leaks outsideways as Danny flails through her teens 194 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: and twenties. But Danny isn't simply doing keg stands in 195 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: the basement of a former morgue and falling out of 196 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: a stolen grocery card on the way home like some 197 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: people on today's podcast. She's unraveling in a very New 198 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: York City in the eighties kind of way. She has 199 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: an affair with her college roommates married father, she gets 200 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: into acting. Both of her parents die when she's still 201 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: in her early twenties, and then she's not alone like 202 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: she was as a little girl in that big house 203 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. She's alone, Lauren Gough wrote in the 204 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: novel Fates and Furies, green is for the strong who 205 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: use it as fuel for burning. The death of Danny's 206 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: parents become the fuel that propels her out of that affair, 207 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: out of acting and back into college and then grad 208 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: school and into a career as a novelist, building worlds 209 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: and stories and characters and finding the right place for 210 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: every piece. Danny falls in love and gets married, and 211 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: builds a career and has a son, and together their 212 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: family of three are their own universe, far from that 213 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: world where she grew up, feeling simultaneously pressed between the 214 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: slides of a microscope and gazing through the lens at 215 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: her community. Here in this farmhouse in Connecticut, many decades 216 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: removed from the little girl who was forced to write 217 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: a gratitude list with a list of published books and 218 00:14:50,640 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: essays and articles a mile long, she is home. I'm 219 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: fifty four years old. I'm a writer of many books, 220 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: a professor of writing. I'm married for twenty plus years. 221 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: I have a seventeen year old son, and have really 222 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: built a life I love. And I am genuinely content 223 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: to the degree that contentment is possible. There's always a 224 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: sense that I have that somehow, not everything clicks into place, 225 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: not everything makes sense. There's some kind of subtle disconnect 226 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: that I've learned how to live with. It's just the 227 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: way it is. But I am the happiest and the 228 00:15:50,320 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: most fulfilled that I've ever been in my life. I 229 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: live in rural Connecticut in house I love, you know, 230 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: with my husband and my son and a dog, and 231 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: my husband who's also a writer and a journalist and 232 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: a filmmaker. And he's a former foreign correspondent, so he 233 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: really has the journalistic instinct, and and he's also an 234 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: early adopter of technology, always kind of early to the 235 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: party on all things technological. Danny's husband, Michael, is about 236 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: to be an early adopter of at home DNA tests. 237 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: They're ubiquitous now. I'm pretty sure you can get them 238 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: at target. But at this point these tests are just 239 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: gaining steam and all across America. We were thrilled to 240 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: be able to prove that actually you should kiss me 241 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: because I am Irish, or definally know our heritage after 242 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: a private adoption as a child, or to you just 243 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, hand over our personal DNA to a giant 244 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: data company. Whatever. Michael and Danny already know everything there 245 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: is to know about their own heritage, but it could 246 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: be an interesting experiment. So Michael tells Danny, Hey, I 247 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: ordered some of those DNA tests. You want to do one? 248 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: And I could so easily have said no. To this day, 249 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm marvel that I said yes. It was just in 250 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: the spirit of, like, oh, what the hell. You know, 251 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: the testing companies bring their prices down every year, right 252 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: around the holidays, and it was not a big ticket item, 253 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, you know, okay. So he sent 254 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: away for two of these tests, and they arrived, and 255 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, as many people know, you have to spit 256 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: into a plastic vial. They sat on my kitchen counter 257 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: for weeks actually, because they were that unimportant. And then 258 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: at some point one night after dinner, he you know, 259 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: opened mine and he told me to spit in the 260 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: vial and and I did. And I felt sort of 261 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: vaguely ridiculous and like why am I doing this? And 262 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: how much spit do you need? And but I did it, 263 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: and and he sealed mine up, and he sealed his 264 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: up and sent them back off, you know, to be evaluated. 265 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: And a while later, I don't know, six weeks eight 266 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: weeks later, one night we were watching TV after dinner, 267 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: just sitting there and he had his laptop sitting on 268 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: his lap, as he often does, and and he said, oh, 269 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: your results are in. And I didn't even know what 270 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: he was talking about. It wasn't like there was any 271 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: since I have had at all that I was waiting 272 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: for these results. But he opened my results and started 273 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: looking at them. I wasn't even looking at them. I 274 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: was incurious, and he was like huh. I was like, 275 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: huh what And he said, well, look like it says here. 276 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems to be 277 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: saying here that you are fifty percent Eastern European Ashkenazi. 278 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: And I was like, well, that's ridiculous, that's not right. 279 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm probably Eastern European Ashkenazi. Both of my 280 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: parents are from that background. And he's like, yeah, it's weird. 281 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: But I just thought like there were no, like even 282 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: faint warning bills. I just thought there must be some mistake. 283 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: Testing company must you know, have mixed up my results 284 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: or gotten it wrong, or maybe all people are a 285 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: little of this and a little of that. We're just 286 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: learning that now. I just had no nothing. But it 287 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: actually did from my husband. I think it's set off 288 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: a little bit of his journalistic kind of m also science. 289 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean he was like, yeah, the science of this 290 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: is pretty clear. Um, they don't make they don't really 291 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: make mistakes. And he didn't say that, but when you 292 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: take one of these tests, you can opt in, and 293 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: most people do to see other people that you share 294 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: DNA with that you're related to genetically, and almost everybody 295 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: opts in. And I did. And a little while later, 296 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: maybe a week later, Michael, my husband, I'm sitting there 297 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: having tea with a friend and he comes in to 298 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: where we're sitting and interrupts and says, you have a 299 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: first cousin on your ancestry dot com page. And I 300 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I have lots of first cousins and 301 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: he said, no, no no, no, like you have a first cousin. 302 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: Who isn't for your first cousin? I mean, you don't 303 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: know who's on here? And he points to this icon 304 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: and I'm basically my mood at that moment is irritated. 305 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: He's interrupting my tea date with this, like, what do 306 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: you mean first cousin? I want to just finish having 307 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: my tea with my friend. And he points out this 308 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: little blue icon blue for boys, actually blue for boys 309 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: and pink for girls. The only way we could possibly 310 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: know that's right, that's right. There's no you know, there's 311 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: no yellow or lime green. So there's a little blue 312 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: icon and it only has initials on it. It doesn't 313 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: have a name, it just has initials. And it's not 314 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: somebody that I know that I at that point, I'm 315 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 1: certain that the testing company has just simply mixed up 316 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: my results with the results of somebody else who is 317 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: wondering what this first cousin isn't appearing on their page 318 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: and there must be a mix up. Still, no no 319 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: alarm bells, no danger, danger feeling at all. But my 320 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: husband starts exploring this a little bit more and he 321 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: sees that there is a name connected to um the 322 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: first cousins initials. There's actually a name, and he starts 323 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: kind of digging into that name, and he's not really 324 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: getting anywhere, and finally he says to me, you know, 325 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: you know, we could really get to the bottom of this. 326 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: Michael's pitch is to reach out to Susie, Danny's much 327 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: older half sister, her father's daughter from an earlier marriage. 328 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: That two of them had not grown up together, but 329 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: Susie was someone that Danny had always admired. She was 330 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: intelligent and sophisticated, part of a world that was wildly 331 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: different from the one that Danny grew up in. I 332 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: kind of revered her in a lot of ways. We 333 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: had not been close for a number of years. Susie 334 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: and my mother hated each other, which was something that 335 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: always left me feeling of very divided loyalty. And after 336 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: my mother died, we hadn't talked in a few years. 337 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: But Michael said to me, why don't you reach out 338 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: to Susie. Do you think she's done a DNA test? 339 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: And I remembered that she had told me years earlier, 340 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: she being an even more of an earlier after adapter 341 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: of technology. Then my husband is that she had done 342 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: one of the early back when it was pretty unusual 343 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: DNA home tests, mostly for health reasons, wanting to know 344 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: if she had, you know, any genetic diseases that she 345 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: could know about. So I sent an email this is 346 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: now happening very very quickly. It's nighttime. We had been 347 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: out to dinner with friends. I had told them the 348 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: whole story about how there was this crazy thing with 349 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: this first cousin, and the friends we were out with 350 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: later told me like they went home and said, Danny 351 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: doesn't know what what's about to happen to her because 352 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: Danny really didn't know what was about to happen to her. 353 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: I still thought, this is just, you know, kind of 354 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: nutty stuff. This is your husband just like chasing a 355 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: rabbit hole. You're like, are you bored? Are you between projects? 356 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: But like that, get a life. Yeah, totally totally just 357 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: a feeling of like, this is this is just too much, 358 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: this is this is like a conspiracy theory almost um. 359 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: But I did reach out to Susie. I sent her 360 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 1: an email asking if my memory was correct that she 361 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: had in fact done DNA testing and if so, did 362 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: she have any information regarding that? And I heard back 363 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: from her within an hour that yes, she had done 364 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: DNA testing and that she was actually away she was 365 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: at a TED conference in um Canada, but that she 366 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: would look on her computer that she had with her 367 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: to see if she had her results with her, and 368 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: another email saying she indeed did, and there's a site 369 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: that exists that she knew about and that Michael also 370 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: knew about. That's called um jet match, and jet match 371 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: exists entirely for the purpose of comparing DNA results. So 372 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: you can upload a kit number you know your name 373 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: isn't on it or anything like that. Just your your 374 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: kit number of your d n A results and the 375 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: kit number of someone else's DNA results, and see how 376 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: closely you are related. And that's when everything went kind 377 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: of at warp speed. So Susie sent her kit number. 378 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: Michael knew about this technology. We were leaving the next 379 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: day on a trip. I was upstairs packing and putting 380 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: everything in its proper place. All of a sudden, here 381 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: Michael like running up the stairs with his laptop, and 382 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: I think the moment that I saw his face, I 383 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: began to hear warning bills because he looked that kind 384 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: of wide open look I had only seen on his 385 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: face a couple of times. I saw it on his 386 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: face the moment our son was born. I saw it 387 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: on his face. I came home one day and my 388 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: mother had been terminally ill. But I like, he was 389 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: standing on the porch and I looked at his face, 390 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: and I knew my mother had died. I had seen 391 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: it on his face in moments of like huge before 392 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: and after kind of moments good and you know, the 393 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: most beautiful and the most terrible, and and what I 394 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: saw in his face was that. And he sat down 395 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: next to me, and he pointed to this whole series 396 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: of numbers on his computer screen and I was like, 397 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what this means. And he pointed to 398 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: a line and he said, right there, and there was 399 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: a series of letters, a series of numbers. And I 400 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: said what is that And he said, that's your most 401 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: recent common ancestor with Susie. And I said what does 402 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: that mean? He said, you're not sisters. You're not related. 403 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: You're not related. And I was like, well, what do 404 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: you mean, like, no kind of sisters? And because you know, 405 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: we had always very studiously referred to each other as 406 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: half sisters, something that I've later discovered that in many 407 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: families happier than our family, people don't feel the need 408 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: to do. You know, you can be step siblings, half 409 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: siblings of a family is kind of healthy and intact 410 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: and feels good about each other. You just are sisters 411 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: or brothers, your siblings. It's not like that, but it 412 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: had always been like that for us. So I said, 413 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: no kind of siblings and he said, no, you're not related, 414 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: And at that moment I knew what that meant. Like 415 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: all of the noise in my head, all of the 416 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: I guess one would have to say denial. All of 417 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: that vanished, and I knew that it meant that if 418 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: we did not share a father, that it meant that 419 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: our father was not my father. I never entertained the thought, oh, well, 420 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: maybe he's my father and not Susie's father. I knew instantly, 421 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: like in this deep way, um, like, ah, we don't. 422 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: My father wasn't my biological father. Danny's father was not 423 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: her biological father. Danny's parents saw fertility doctor when her 424 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: mother was trying to conceive, and as was the custom 425 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: in the fifties and the sixties, the doctor makes donor 426 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: sperm from a young medical student, in this case with 427 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: her father's sperm, a way of preserving a patient's ego 428 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: while also giving them what their hearts so desperately wanted. 429 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: It is not great, not great, not a great practice. 430 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: Definitely wouldn't happen now, but it happened then. I think 431 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: my parents were both kind people. I think they were 432 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: decent people. I think that each of them, in their 433 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: own ways, were doing the best they could with what 434 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: they had been given. But I think, particularly my mother, 435 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: when she looked at me from the time that I 436 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: was born, when she looked at me she looked at 437 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: a secret that she was keeping, or something that she 438 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: was very afraid aid of, something she didn't want to 439 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: think about. She was keeping, I believe, on some level, 440 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: a secret from herself that she buried so deeply. She 441 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: so desperately just wanted me to be, you know, both 442 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: of my parents biological child, and forget that that whole 443 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: thing ever had happened. But of course it had happened, 444 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: and pushing it away doesn't make it go away. And 445 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, I used to wonder why when I would 446 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: look at my mother her eyes all my life as 447 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: a child, I do remember feeling this way. Her eyes 448 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: were always darting. She had very giggle ee eyes. I 449 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: don't know how else to put it. They were always 450 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: moving very very quickly from not like glancing from side 451 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: to side, but literally like there was a little earthquake 452 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: going on in her eyes and like a little seismic quality, 453 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: and it always like kind of disturbed me. And I 454 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: didn't understand it, but I think I do now. I 455 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: think that that's how she looked at me, was that 456 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: I was always kind of creating a little seismic explosion 457 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: inside of her, whether she was aware of it or not. 458 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: This secret was one her parents had assumed would stay 459 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: with them in their graves, not be resurrected by a 460 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: science that was unimaginable at the time. But the secret 461 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: is out, and the secret this whole time was Danny. Danny, 462 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: who thought she was nine percent Eastern European Ashkenazi, is 463 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: actually part English, French, German, Irish and Scandinavian. There's this 464 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: beautiful John Didion line about feeling like she's navigating the 465 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: world on a borrowed passport. Um. I mean, I think 466 00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons why it's one of my 467 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: favorite of her descriptions or her sentences, is because that 468 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: was the feeling. It's like I don't have a right 469 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: to be here, and one of the things that I've 470 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: thought a great deal about and I probably will think 471 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: about for the rest of my life. And it's something 472 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: that a lot of people who have had experiences not 473 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: unlike my own report feeling, which is, you know, people 474 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: who have had a huge secret that has to do 475 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: with their identity kept from them. Is growing up with 476 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: that feeling of like having a borrowed passport, of being 477 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: an interloper of you know, again, the not belonging, and 478 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: it's something I think that is intuited and that is 479 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: kind of like sort of a deeply buried feeling. But 480 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: I think it also comes from the fact that there 481 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: are parents or a parent in some cases, who have 482 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: kept that kind of magnitude of a secret from child, 483 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: so that in fact, the child becomes the secret. This 484 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: is a stunning, dizzying, absolute wrecking ball of a revelation. 485 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: And Danny does what she has done for decades. She writes, 486 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: She writes about this, She pulls it all apart and 487 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: puts it back together and tries to make sense of it. 488 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: And the full story is detailed in her best selling 489 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: memoir Inheritance, which you probably have read, but if you haven't, 490 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: absolutely should. But I've been reading Danny Shapiro since forever. 491 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: Hers were some of the first memoirs to grab me 492 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: by the throat and pin me to my chair until 493 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: I was finished. I actually can't overstate what reading Slow Motion, 494 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: the memoir of her twenties, did for me in my twenties, 495 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: when I was spinning out and wondering if I would 496 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: ever just stop. Danny has her own podcast, Family Secrets, 497 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: which is You'll Never Guess what it's about. Actually, you'll 498 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: never guess m and she knows that every day there 499 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: are people having their past and their present in their 500 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: future rearranged without their consent, learning truths that turn the 501 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: puzzle pieces of their life into one of the boxes 502 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: that's always in rental cabins, where literally none of the 503 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: pieces are from the same puzzle. But you don't realize 504 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: that until you've spent three hours trying to find edge 505 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: pieces and none of them fit. Lots of people go 506 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: through this, but most people aren't writers. What you have 507 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: that other people don't is this record of your life. 508 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: It might be the Maybe the only good thing about 509 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: being a writer is um is having so much documentation, 510 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: not just of what happened, but of how it felt. 511 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: You know. People always ask me when I knew um 512 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: that I was a writer, and I think I mean, 513 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: I was always a writer. I was always If a 514 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: writer is someone who has the compulsion to write in 515 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: order to figure out what she knows, to figure out 516 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: what's going on inside of her. That was always my 517 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: tool for self examination or self illumination, or understanding anything 518 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: about the world that I lived in. I didn't know 519 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: that I could grow up in and and actually, you know, 520 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: make books, write books, you know, as what I do 521 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: in the world. I had no idea that that was possible. 522 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: But from the time that I did, from the time 523 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 1: that I first started trying to tell stories that other 524 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: people would read from practically word one, my subject matter, 525 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: my themes really so often had to do with secrets 526 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: and a family. Um and I I didn't know why, 527 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: It's just what I did. I really didn't look too 528 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: carefully at my motivations for why I was writing what 529 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: I was writing, because I was almost superstitious about doing that. 530 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: It's like taking a car apart and then suddenly the 531 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: engine doesn't work anymore. I didn't I was wilfully not 532 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: wanting to know why I was compelled or even obsessed 533 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: to explore what I wanted to explore. And what I 534 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: wanted to explore was almost inevitably secrets within a family, 535 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: the corrosive power of secrets, and what we do to 536 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: each other in the name of keeping secrets or having 537 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 1: secrets or having secrets kept from us. And you know, 538 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: earlier when I said that there was this subtle disconnect 539 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: that I always felt as a child, I think that 540 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: the subtle disconnect ran directly along the fault lines of 541 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: what was beneath those secrets. And I mean, writers, you know, 542 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: we never want to revisit our earlier work. It's like 543 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: it's it's it's like hearing your own voice or seeing, 544 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,839 Speaker 1: you know, seeing pictures of your it's like, it's kind 545 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: of vaguely embarrassing. It's you know, the self that wrote 546 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: that book has long since been left in the dust, 547 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,720 Speaker 1: and hopefully has been both cellularly and intellectually and philosophically 548 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: and emotionally and psychologically um evolved into the self that 549 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: writes the next one, and then that self gets left 550 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: in the dust for the self who can write the 551 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: next one. I mean, I think it's it's true of writers, 552 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: it's true of all of us, that you know, we 553 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: are hopefully constantly evolving, and that we are we are 554 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: many different versions of ourselves over the course of a lifetime. 555 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: But Danny did go back, and so did I, to 556 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: all her previous works, except for her first novel, which 557 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: she did not have a copy of it, neither did 558 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: I until I had earthed one in the depths of 559 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: the internet. Long after we had this interview. Danny went 560 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: back to see what she knew before she knew. I 561 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: am holding in my hands the most the most mortifying 562 00:37:54,200 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: paperback of Playing with Fire, my first novel, which was 563 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: first published in hardcover. But I don't think I have 564 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: any so I um, I'm holding the sort of pale 565 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: pink paperback of Playing with Fire. I think of my 566 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: Christmas card displayed across the nation, my six year old 567 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: Scandinavian self, my father receiving phone calls from friends in Boston, Richmond, Phoenix, Minneapolis. Joe, 568 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: do you know that, Lucy Is? They would trail off, 569 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: not knowing what to say, as if it was some 570 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: sort of sin. Daddy would laugh, wishing you a merry Christmas. 571 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: It was a story he loved. Imagine. I can almost 572 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: hear him say, Jacob Gleenberg's granddaughter a regular little ships 573 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: and you didn't know you were a Scandinavian when you 574 00:38:52,640 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: wrote that. Nope, that's fiction, but the story of that 575 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: Christmas photo is real. Little Jewish Danny was a model 576 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: in a Christmas ad, a little taste of fame that 577 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: her mother was exceptionally proud of. But even in her 578 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: earliest memoir, written after her parents have died, there's that 579 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: sense that she had in her childhood, the sense of 580 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: not quite fitting hints that now look like clues. I 581 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: have so much from slow motion underlined. So I've got 582 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: the paperback from that Danny I bought from a library 583 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 1: sidewalk sale when I couldn't afford books in New York. 584 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: I was so excited to have this book. Okay, um, 585 00:39:47,880 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: if you go to page seventy at the bottom, I 586 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: rummaged through her purse for a compact. Rummaging through my 587 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: mother's purse is nothing new to me. As a child. 588 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: My desire to find out the real truth, which I 589 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: also defined as whatever I didn't know, began with my 590 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: mother's handbag, the romance of little slips of paper, contents 591 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: of wallets, to do lists, lipsticks. When I think of 592 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: myself as a child, even though I can't fully put 593 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: myself back there, it was always as this sort of 594 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, like Nancy drew of my own life, constantly 595 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: looking for clues. I mean I rummaged through everything. I 596 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: rumaged through her desk drawers, I rummaged through her papers, 597 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: but there was something in you know. She had beautiful clothes, 598 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: and she had beautiful jewelry and a lot of everything 599 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: like a lot of You know, there wouldn't be a 600 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: perfume bottle like what I might have on my vanity. 601 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: There would be dozens of them. And it was as 602 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: if I could as if I knew that she was 603 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: holding something that like maybe that these objects could clue 604 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: me in or give me a sense of what what 605 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: was missing, what I didn't know. But it was obsessive 606 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: and it was wordless. I wasn't I couldn't have told 607 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: you why I was doing it. It was like I 608 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:47,359 Speaker 1: was sleepwalking when I would do these things. My side 609 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: of the family heals well. My mother tells me proudly, 610 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: your father's family scars like nothing you've ever seen, but 611 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: we're survivors. We snap right back as if nothing's happened. 612 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: She tells me this as if I were not also 613 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: my father's daughter, when the fact is I have inherited 614 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: that particular trait from him. I am not as physically 615 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: strong as my mother, and I don't bounce back as 616 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: if nothing has happened. If I had been in the 617 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: passenger's seat of the audi that night, I doubt I 618 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:26,399 Speaker 1: would have lived. The room swims. All my life, I've 619 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,399 Speaker 1: felt as if I've done something wrong when I see 620 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: a police car on the highway, even if I'm not speeding, 621 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: I think I'll be pulled over. And when walking through 622 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: metal detectors and airports, I imagine that the alarmal sound 623 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: and a gun or bomb will be pulled out from 624 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: my luggage. Doesn't everybody feel that way? Are you telling me? 625 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: You're telling me that's that One's just me many years 626 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: from now, when my father is a skeleton in the ground, 627 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: when my mother strides the streets of New York City 628 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: with her arms swinging, when Lenny Kline is reduced to 629 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: a colorful, if painful story. In my mind, there will 630 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: occasionally be a day when I feel the fear. Then 631 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: not inside me will unravel, and suddenly my heart will 632 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: pound uncontrollably, my palms will dampen, and my ears will 633 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: begin to ring. Wherever I am, I will be desperate 634 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: to escape. The urge will be to run as far 635 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: as I can, as fast as I can, away from 636 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: my own body, like a tidal wave. It will come 637 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: out of nowhere, this nameless, faithless terror. I will try 638 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: every so called panacea, every cure, meditation, homeopathy, behavioral therapy, 639 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: and nothing will make it go away. Not really. Sometimes 640 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: I will be lulled into thinking that it's gone for good, 641 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: but then years will pass and suddenly it will be 642 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: there again, haunting me like an old lover. It will 643 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,280 Speaker 1: return to remind me that I am my father's daughter, 644 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: that I inherited his terror along with my mother's will 645 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: to survive. Booh. You know the I feel, in some ways, 646 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: in many ways, like an object lesson in nature versus 647 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: nurture um. And I feel such sadness and compassion for 648 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: the young woman who wrote those words, and the still 649 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: younger woman herself. You know that she was writing about 650 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: because I was always looking for reasons. You know, why 651 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: did I have that terrible anxiety at the point that 652 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,280 Speaker 1: I wrote Slow Motion? I was very much in that place. 653 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:23,800 Speaker 1: I believed that I came by it genetically. My father 654 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: was an extremely phobic, anxious person who would suddenly, you know, 655 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: in the middle of dinner, at the dinner table, check 656 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: his pulse. I mean, his father dropped dead of a stroke, 657 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: and I think he was always afraid that that was 658 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: going to happen to him, and he monitored himself. He 659 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: was acutely aware, sort of hyper vigilant about his own heartbeat, literally, 660 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 1: and I was laboring under false information. I mean, did 661 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: I grow up to be anxious at that stage in 662 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,280 Speaker 1: my life because I grew up watching a father who 663 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: took his pulse at the dinner table. Very possibly that 664 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: that was part of it, um, but it was not 665 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 1: something I inherited genetically from him. And yet that story, 666 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: the story that I did, you know, it became important 667 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,320 Speaker 1: to me. You know, people who are raised in families 668 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: where they're biologically connected to their parents never really have 669 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: cause to unpack any of this or think about it, 670 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: because it's just the way it is. You know, you 671 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: kind of understand, Oh I walk like that, or I 672 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: sound like that, or you know, I share this sensibility 673 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: with or you know, there's like a wider net that 674 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: actually really does have to do with biology and genetics. 675 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,959 Speaker 1: And then people who are raised by families that they're 676 00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: not biologically related to but they know that also know, well, 677 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 1: I don't look like my father or my mother, or 678 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: I I don't have these traits in common with my 679 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: parents who are raising me, my adoptive parents or my 680 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 1: you know, my social parents. But I know why. I'm 681 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: not saying that that's easy, but I think that that's 682 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: it's true that there's that knowledge, and that knowledge becomes 683 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: woven into identity. But when you don't know, and you 684 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 1: don't know that you don't know, then, I mean, it's 685 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: become really interesting for me to have to go to 686 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: doctor's appointments now in the last five or six years, 687 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: where I have to actually go, you know, I need 688 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: to revise my medical history, father living, you know, family history, 689 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, pretty pretty darn healthy as opposed to I mean, 690 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: my father died when I was twenty three years old 691 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: in a car accident, but not, according to you a 692 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: physician's interests, you know, a physician's interests is my father 693 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: is living and eighty something years old and in good health. 694 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: So it's a very very you know, I read this 695 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: and I just see the burdens that I was carrying 696 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: and the desire to make narrative, you know, And I think, 697 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,280 Speaker 1: to go back to the subtle disconnect, I was always 698 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: trying to create narratives that would make sense of myself 699 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: and would make sense of where I came from, and 700 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: I was always coming up short, which I think is 701 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: in a way a great gift, because it propelled me 702 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 1: book after book to try to fill in the pieces 703 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: of the puzzle that I didn't understand all the while, 704 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,360 Speaker 1: not knowing that there was kind of this essential piece, 705 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, that I was sort of whistling in the 706 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: dark in some way, which also is why I feel 707 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: now so um, I mean it's it's I don't remotely 708 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,919 Speaker 1: disavow my earlier books. I kind of love them as 709 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: um like artifacts of my unconscious and I stand by them, 710 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 1: and you know, and I know people care about them 711 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 1: as books in their own right. But I feel like 712 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:35,240 Speaker 1: I've been liberated in the last five years by knowing 713 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: a much fuller truth, so that the kind of digging 714 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: that I was doing, I feel like the world opened 715 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: up to me. And I finished, in a way a 716 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 1: lifelong project when I wrote Inheritance, because I finally like, 717 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: why the turn from novels to memoir? You know, you 718 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,319 Speaker 1: started reading me with slow emotion. Most people did. But 719 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: there was three novels before slow motion, um, that were 720 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: like my baby novels that were my like learning how 721 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: to write in fact a public way. But they were, um, 722 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,959 Speaker 1: there's a reason why those books are out of print. 723 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: There out of print because I was being led around. 724 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: I was being you know, when you like walk down 725 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: the streets sometimes when you see a dog walking a person. 726 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 1: But the feeling in a literary sense, in a creative sense, 727 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: that I began to have, and it's why I wrote 728 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: Slow Motion, was the dog was walking me. My unconscious 729 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: material was in charge of me, not me in charge 730 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: of it, which you know, any novelist will tell you 731 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 1: that's tricky territory. You never want to be in full 732 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,959 Speaker 1: charge of your unconscious material because then you know there's 733 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 1: no magic. But I was really really not in control, 734 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: and beginning with Slow Motion, I felt like I was 735 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 1: big inning to be more and more in control, and 736 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: I and I do think that that's true. But I 737 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,840 Speaker 1: really veered into the territory of memoir as a writer, 738 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 1: and I wrote two more novels that I think are 739 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: good novels and where I definitely felt like I was 740 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,760 Speaker 1: writing in a more mature way and more in control 741 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,440 Speaker 1: of my material. But then I went back to memoir. 742 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,760 Speaker 1: I wrote my memoir Devotion, and then I wrote still Writing, 743 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: and all the while I kept on thinking why I 744 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: didn't set out to be a memoirist. Why did I 745 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,720 Speaker 1: return to the form again and again? And the image 746 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,880 Speaker 1: that I always have when I think of myself during 747 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,520 Speaker 1: all of those years, is like I was literally digging, 748 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,280 Speaker 1: like digging on my knees in the ground with a shovel, 749 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: and I would dig, dig, dig, and I would make 750 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 1: a nice, you know, some kind of nice big hole 751 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,160 Speaker 1: with like you know, inelegant metaphor, but like a pile 752 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,400 Speaker 1: of dirt. You know, it was kind of pretty big pile. 753 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,759 Speaker 1: But I would not have kind of hit. I would 754 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,319 Speaker 1: not have found the thing that I was digging for. 755 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: I would have approximated finding the thing that I was 756 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,440 Speaker 1: digging for, but I hadn't found it. And then one day, 757 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:17,080 Speaker 1: because of this random recreational DNA testing, suddenly I'm like there, 758 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: and I'm on my knees and I'm digging, and like 759 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: my shovel hits the fucking black box. My my shovel 760 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:31,000 Speaker 1: just hits this metal thing, and inside it is like 761 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: the story of literally my existence. Everything that wouldn't fit 762 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: in your mom's purse, everything that wouldn't fit in my 763 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: mom's purse exactly, or in her jewelry box or in 764 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 1: her closet or in you know the rooms of the 765 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:54,759 Speaker 1: you know, the home that I grew up in that 766 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: was like a kind of you know, wax museum, where 767 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: I've described it that way in my writing, where you know, 768 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:08,960 Speaker 1: look too closely and it doesn't add up, or look 769 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:15,520 Speaker 1: too closely and it's not real. In Danny's second memoir, 770 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,360 Speaker 1: detailing her infant son's diagnosis with a rare seizure disorder, 771 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 1: you can sense Danny trying to look more closely, not 772 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: quite knowing what she's even looking for. No wonder. I 773 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,320 Speaker 1: had been running as hard and as fast as I could. 774 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,359 Speaker 1: Anxiety was my fuel. When I stopped, it was all 775 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,880 Speaker 1: waiting for me. Fear, anger, grief, despair, and that terrible, 776 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: terrible loneliness. What was it about? I was hardly alone. 777 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: I loved my husband and son. I had great friends, colleagues, students. 778 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: In the quiet in the extra hours, I was forced 779 00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,840 Speaker 1: to ask the question and to listen carefully to the answer. 780 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:13,040 Speaker 1: I was lonely for myself. Now, I'm not saying all 781 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,480 Speaker 1: of your writing you you deserve fear, anger, grief, despair 782 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,080 Speaker 1: over losing your parents and having your child to be 783 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,560 Speaker 1: diagnosed with a very rare seizure disorder that he just 784 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,399 Speaker 1: through through the eye of a needle, like escaped from. 785 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,920 Speaker 1: But does that feel like something else to you when 786 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 1: you read it. I think, when I'm most struck by 787 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 1: is is the um the loneliness, because all those other 788 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:50,759 Speaker 1: feelings I could explain as you just did. You know, 789 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:57,000 Speaker 1: I had experienced a great deal of maternal terror, and 790 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, a fair amount of of loss and grief 791 00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,359 Speaker 1: and trauma in my life at a relatively young age 792 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,760 Speaker 1: and certainly as a young mother. The thing we are all, 793 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,239 Speaker 1: you know, so terrified of is you know, something being 794 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 1: very very wrong with my baby. But the loneliness that 795 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,280 Speaker 1: I think about now as something that had to do 796 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,319 Speaker 1: was not my connection with other people, but was my 797 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:35,799 Speaker 1: connection with myself, because you know, I mean, I think 798 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: in writing Devotion, I mean Devotion was such a deep 799 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,839 Speaker 1: dive for me into, Like when I realized that I 800 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: was I felt almost called upon to write this book. 801 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: I saw the word devotion before I started writing the book, 802 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: and I realized what it meant and that I was 803 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,040 Speaker 1: going to write this book that had to do with 804 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: my sort of early midlife spiritual existential crisis, and I 805 00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 1: just thought, oh, ship, like it was the last thing 806 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,239 Speaker 1: the world I wanted to do was delve into. That 807 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,360 Speaker 1: was dive into that was tune out the world and 808 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 1: get very very quiet and try to tune into um 809 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,520 Speaker 1: my religious upbringing and what it had meant to me, 810 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,040 Speaker 1: and you know, and to just go wherever, like the 811 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,759 Speaker 1: deep questions took me. And one of the places I 812 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 1: think that I came to understand in writing Devotion, but 813 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,359 Speaker 1: not as deeply as I later understood, was that that 814 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,400 Speaker 1: feeling of loneliness was something that was kind of endemic 815 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,960 Speaker 1: to me. I would have diagnosed it at the time 816 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,239 Speaker 1: as a kind of spiritual malaise, like, oh, what I'm 817 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 1: missing is a connection to a greater being, a higher 818 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: power God. And and perhaps the reason is because so 819 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:54,880 Speaker 1: much was made of that when I was a child, 820 00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: and it was you know, our way or the highway. 821 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,319 Speaker 1: It was all or nothing. It was believe in, you know, 822 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: in this God in this way and in this very 823 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,200 Speaker 1: strict ritualized religious way, or not at all. You don't 824 00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,920 Speaker 1: get to make your own path. So I think I 825 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 1: attributed that sense of loneliness to that. But when I 826 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,760 Speaker 1: read it now, I and again feel sad for the 827 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:25,520 Speaker 1: Danny who who felt that and who wrote that, because 828 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: I think it was a deeper feeling um, when the 829 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:39,040 Speaker 1: very essence of our identity is something that is kept 830 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:43,080 Speaker 1: secret from us. I mean my identity. The stories that 831 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,200 Speaker 1: I was told from the time that I was a 832 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:50,080 Speaker 1: very small child about who I was and where I 833 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 1: came from, We're not true. They were hidden and secret 834 00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:01,200 Speaker 1: and obfuscated and pushed into the remoteist corners in the 835 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:07,440 Speaker 1: hopes that they would disappear. And I think that created 836 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:12,280 Speaker 1: in me a kind of void that couldn't be filled. 837 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:29,320 Speaker 1: Lacuna geology a large gap in the stratigraphic record, Lacuna amnesia, psychology, 838 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: amnesia about a specific event Petrovsky, Lacuna mathematics a region 839 00:58:39,200 --> 00:59:18,960 Speaker 1: where the fundamental solution of a differential equation vanishes. MS 840 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 1: has been terrible. Thanks for asking. I'm Nora McNerney. Our 841 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:28,640 Speaker 1: producer is Marcel Malikibu. Our team is me Marcel jacob Aldo, 842 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 1: Nato Medina, Jordan Turgin, Megan Palmer, um Beth Proman is 843 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:38,080 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Our executives in charge our Lily Kim, 844 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,640 Speaker 1: Alex Shaffer and Joan Griffith. We are a production of 845 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:44,320 Speaker 1: a PM Studios at American Public Media. Our theme music 846 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 1: is by Geoffrey Lamar Wilson. I recorded this in the 847 00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:53,960 Speaker 1: coldest closet in my house. I am so cold. Um. Oh, 848 00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: if you guys want to call in, leave comments, questions, concerns, 849 00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:02,240 Speaker 1: um compliments. That's another See can call six four four 850 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,960 Speaker 1: four one or email podcast at Nora Borealist dot com. 851 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to you our show. We appreciate 852 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,240 Speaker 1: you a lot. Um. Have you haven't listened to Danny's podcast? 853 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: We link that in the show notes. We also linked 854 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,600 Speaker 1: to her books, including Inheritance, which is brilliant, but all 855 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,840 Speaker 1: of her books are lovely, wonderful, and oh my god, 856 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:23,600 Speaker 1: her voice. Don't you want to take a nap in it? 857 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:25,240 Speaker 1: That's what I've always said, I want to take a 858 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,680 Speaker 1: nap in Danny Shapiro's voice. Okay, bye you