1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: the Thing from iHeart Radio. For decades, everyone, it seemed, 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: had a theory on how it really happened. Maybe it 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: was the Russians or the mob, or the CIA declarations 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: about the magic bullet, the Grassy Knoll, and the shot 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: or shots that killed President John F. Kennedy on November 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: twenty two, nineteen sixty three, in Dallas, Texas. Numerous congressional 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: committees were formed to investigate the assassination without any real results. 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: From the Warren Commission in nineteen sixty three, to the 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Church Committee in nineteen seventy five, to the US House 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations in nineteen seventy six, 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: none of them put to bed the questions surrounding the 13 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: government's position that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman. 14 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: The JFK Assassination Records Collection Act of nineteen ninety two 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: sought to finally establish some answers for the American public. 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: The Assassination Records Review Board AARRB followed. The independent federal 17 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: agency was created to record and release as much information 18 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: to the public as possible. My guest today Douglas Horn 19 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: worked as chief analyst on the Military Records team for 20 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: the AARRB in Washington, d C. He was a key 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: participant in taking the depositions of ten witnesses to the 22 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: JFK autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital in nineteen sixty three. 23 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: Horn claims to have seen evidence that finally proves what 24 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: many have believed all along that the government was engaged 25 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: in an extensive conspiracy to cover up the truth of 26 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: the JFK assassination. Horn believes there is proof that the 27 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: official autopsy and the famous Zapruder film which captured the 28 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: events live, were both doctored. I wanted to begin with 29 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: how Horn found himself working for the a r RB. 30 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: I was with the Navy in different capacities for twenty years, 31 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: ten years on active duty as a surface warfare officer 32 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: driving ships, and ten more years as a civil servant 33 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: with the Navy. 34 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: And what's the difference, by the way, in terms of duties. 35 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: Well, on active duty driving ships around, I was on 36 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: three different warships, a frigate and two guided missile cruisers. 37 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 2: You know saying right, standard rudder all engines had full 38 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And as a civil servant. I 39 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: was in a field office providing logistics support for some 40 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: anti submarine warfare ships. So that was the same job 41 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: every day ashore, you know, with no risk involved, you know, 42 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: just going home and sleep at night, but still very 43 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: much working for the same Navy, just in one in uniform, 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: in the second one not in uniform. And so the 45 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: way I was steered toward working for the review board 46 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: was that was Oliver Stone's movie coming out, of course 47 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one, late nineteen ninety one and then 48 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,839 Speaker 2: into nineteen ninety two, there was a lot of talk 49 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: about his film, and that caused me to reread. One 50 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 2: of the major books in my life was David Lufton's 51 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: Best Evidence, which was all about the medical evidence. And 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 2: while mister Lufton did not come up with all the answers, 53 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: he did draw attention to a major problem, which was 54 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: that the wound on the President's head seen at Parkland 55 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: Hospital in Dallas, where he was treated, was totally different 56 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: from the wounds depicted in the autopsy photographs taken it 57 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: Bethesden Naval Hospital. So he was very much concerned about 58 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: that dichotomy and what was the reason for all that 59 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: and so he shifted the focus from the single bullet theory, 60 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 2: which had been the focus of the critics since the 61 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: late sixties, to the head wounds, which I thought was appropriate. 62 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: So after Oliver Stones's film comes out and has a 63 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: a grand theme of a domestic conspiracy and who might 64 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: have been behind that, and I noted at the end 65 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: of his film, as did everyone else, that he talked 66 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 2: about how all of the sensitive records of the House 67 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 2: Select Committee on Assassinations from the nineteen seventies were sealed. 68 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: We're under sealed for fifty years, which was outrageous since 69 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: that was supposed to be a people's committee to explain 70 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: to the American people what happened, and yet all their 71 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: sensitive records are sealed. So that led to the drafting 72 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: of the JFK Records Act by Robert Blakey. Now Robert 73 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: Blakey was the Chief Council for the House Select Committee 74 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: on Assassinations Chief Council for the HSCA, the second one 75 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: after the first one was fired. The first one wanted 76 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: to do a real murder investigation. 77 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: Well, this is church committee. 78 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: No, this is right after the Church Committee was the HSCA. 79 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: Church Committee was not the and the HSCA was formed 80 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: in seventy six and then wound up its work in 81 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: seventy eight and published its report in nineteen seventy nine. 82 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: So anyway, Robert Blake, who had been the second Chief 83 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 2: Council for the HSCA, he drafts this legislation called the 84 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: JFK Records Act, and it has bipartisan support in Congress, 85 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 2: primarily by two different mindsets of people. So the mainstream senators, 86 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: people like John Glenn and David Boren, who was head 87 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: of the Intelligence Committee in the Senate, they supported the 88 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: JFK Records Act because they said, we'll show all these 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: people that think there was a conspiracy in this country 90 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: to kill Kennedy and they think there was a cover up, 91 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: We'll show them by releasing all the records. We'll let 92 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: all the records come out and be put in a 93 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: public collection in the archives for public access. And that's 94 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: why we support this bill. And then of course there 95 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: were many others who supported the bill because they didn't 96 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: trust the government and they thought that things were being 97 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: withheld that were important and that the American people still 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: didn't know the true story of what had happened. So 99 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: this bill got bipartisan support and it was passed into law. 100 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: And so what happened to me was I went to 101 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: my first JFK symposium in nineteen ninety three and it 102 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: was in Dallas, and what I found out it was electrifying. 103 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: There were people on stage for six days, people who 104 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 2: were PhDs in history, mds philosophy majors, and accredited teachers 105 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 2: who were discussing this subject. And then I realized that 106 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: this validates all the books I've been reading for years, 107 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: since I was a teenager, that there are serious problems 108 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: with the evidence in this case. 109 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: Right, so you've been focused on this years before. 110 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: Yes, sir, I remember buying the condensed edition of the 111 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 2: Warren Report in paperback through the weekly reader program in 112 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: school I believe it was elementary school and not being 113 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: satisfied with it. There were no pictures, there were no 114 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: autopsy photographs published. I wasn't satisfied with some parts, that's 115 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: what I thought were kind of simplistic. And yes, I 116 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 2: even thought that at the age of fourteen, Yes, I 117 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 2: did so. Then I proceeded to read the other first 118 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: generation books Rushed to Judgment by Mark Lane, Accessories after 119 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: the Fact by Sylvia Maher six seconds in Dallas. 120 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: Robert sam Anson. 121 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: Right, So Robert sam Anson was a big one in 122 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: the seventies. They've killed the President, right, That was a 123 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: big book. So I went to my first symposium in 124 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. It was very well attended. It was 125 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: the thirtieth anniversary of the assassination. 126 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: Who hosted the event just a profit. 127 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: Making group called ASK. It was a for profit symposium organization, 128 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: but all of the people that were there were very 129 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: highly credentialed and very serious people who had either written 130 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: books already or had published papers. And they actually had 131 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: people from both sides of the spectrum arguing with each other, 132 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: which was great to see that debate on stage, people 133 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: debating evidence. So then how did I get hired by 134 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: the Review Board is a great story. I went to 135 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: another symposium in nineteen ninety four in Washington, DC Research 136 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: Symposium and the last speaker at the symposium was Jack Tunheim. 137 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: So Jack Tunheim became the head of the Review Board. 138 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: The five board members had just been approved by the 139 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: US Senate and he had been elected by his peers 140 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: to be the chairman of the Review Board. So he 141 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: came to speak to us and give his stump speech 142 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: about what the mission of the Review Board was, which 143 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: was essentially to act as librarians and force their way 144 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: into government files, get agencies to cooperate and release records 145 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: that had been withheld, records that were either still classified, 146 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: or records that the agencies just didn't want released for 147 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 2: some reason. They had parts of them redacted, partially obliterated 148 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: with blackouts, you know. So he was asked during his speech, 149 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: are you still hiring staff, and he said, yes, we are, 150 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: but you cannot have worked for a previous investigation to 151 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: work for the Review Board. You cannot have worked for 152 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 2: the Warren Commission or for the House Select Committee in 153 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 2: the seventies, and you must not be a federal employee 154 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: at the current time. You must not be a current 155 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: federal employee. So I listened to that, I thought, okay. 156 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: I wrote out a resume overnight, and I went to 157 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: the first public hearing the very next day of the 158 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: Review Board. So the Review Board didn't really have a 159 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: staff yet. They'd only hired one or two clerical people. 160 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: But they had their first public hearing on how do 161 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: we define what an assassination record is? We're going to 162 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: try to get records released, how do we define an 163 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: assassination record? So they had a public hearing at the 164 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: Archives and numerous leading lights of the research community showed 165 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: up and gave their opinions, and I handed my resume 166 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: to David Marwell. At the time, he was the staff director, 167 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: David Marwell, and all they had hired at that time were, 168 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 2: you know, like two or three other people. So over 169 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: the next six or seven months, from the autumn of 170 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four until March of nineteen ninety five, I 171 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: underwent a gauntlet of telephone interviews. So I was working 172 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: back in Hawaii at this time for the Navy and 173 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: my civil service job. 174 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: Did they suspend the rule that you couldn't be a 175 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: government employee on your behalf? 176 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: No, they didn't suspend the rule. It required me to 177 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: make a major sacrifice and to take a big risk. 178 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: So after six interviews on the phone, I finally got hired. 179 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: But what I had to do was actually resign from 180 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: the civil service for a couple of days and then 181 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: trust them that they were going to be honorable and 182 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: then pick me up. And what that meant was I 183 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: did not have return rights to my job in Hawaii. 184 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: If you're in the civil service and you transferred to 185 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: an overseas job, you have return rights to go back 186 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: to your job after two or three years. I did 187 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: not have return rights. I literally had to resign from 188 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: civil service, and then they picked me up, and I 189 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: took a big pay cut, about a thirty two percent 190 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: pay cut to go work for this temporary agency in Washington, 191 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: and they weren't going to pay for my plane ticket 192 00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: or my move. 193 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: Did you do that? Why? 194 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: Well, I had become in a good way, I think, 195 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: obsessed with the case because I knew that none of 196 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: the medical evidence made any sense. It was the medical 197 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: evidence in the case was so full of conflicts and 198 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: things that didn't agree with each other and people who 199 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: had made opposing statements about wounds that I thought, this 200 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: isn't right. If we live in the I was always 201 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 2: told as a kid, we live in the greatest country 202 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: in the world. My mother and father told me that repeatedly. 203 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: My father was an ex marine, he was a Republican, 204 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: my mother was a Democrat. So we had an interesting 205 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: family with interesting dinner table conversations disagreements. But they'd also 206 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: told me we're in the greatest country. And I had 207 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: questioned that a few times, is that really true? Do 208 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: you guys believe that? And they'd say, yes, of course 209 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: it's true, and they would look at me like, why 210 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: are you asking us? Well, this was the kind of 211 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: reason I was asking them. I don't like being lied to. 212 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: I really don't like it. And if we're in a 213 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: democracy that's functioning, the government shouldn't lie to the people, 214 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: especially about important things. And the two most important questions 215 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: I think that people should have on their minds as 216 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: far as the government telling them the truth and being 217 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: transparent is how do wars begin? 218 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: Number one? 219 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: And number two, how do assassinations happen? So you know, 220 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: we had three big assassinations four actually in the nineteen 221 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: sixties of people that mattered a lot to the public. 222 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: Is your fourth MegaR Evers? Or is it Malcolm X? 223 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: Well, I'm thinking of Malcolm X. 224 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: Got yeah, so there's five as far as that. 225 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: That would be five, that's right, that's right, Jack Kennedy, RFK, 226 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and Medgar Evers. And so 227 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 2: I've never had any patience with government lies. I know 228 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: that to some extent, I've learned, as we all do, 229 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: as we grow up that all governments lie at one 230 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: time or another about different things. The question is how 231 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: often do they do that? And do they lie about 232 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: the really important things they do? And you believe that 233 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 2: democracy is important and informed electorate is important, you should 234 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: do something about it. So I felt the call to action, 235 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: and I knew that this effort to get documents released 236 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: was the last official body that would exist that was 237 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: going to deal with this subject. And it was clear 238 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: to me. So in the first place, why did I 239 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: know that? Well, I knew that because the Congress, when 240 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 2: they passed the JFK Records Act, they did not have 241 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: the guts to empower another investigation. The Review Board was 242 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: not officially allowed to reinvestigate. Our job is to find 243 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: and locate within the government assassination records and then to 244 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: force agencies to release them directly to the archives. And 245 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: then if the agencies were not willing to do that, 246 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: and they still wanted to withhold some of these records, 247 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: then they had to give them to this body called 248 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: the Review Board, which was the middleman. 249 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: And that was their mandate. 250 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: That was our mandate, was to find the records and 251 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: review the ones that the agency did not want to release. 252 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 2: And the View Board for the first time something called 253 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: citizen review. These five board members, working with their staff, 254 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: would decide what was going to be released and what wasn't, 255 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: and their agencies were going to have to comply, and 256 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: the only way they could not comply was to appeal 257 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: to the President and then he would make the decision. 258 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: So I thought this is worth being a part of 259 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: because it's an honorable thing to do to try to 260 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: get the rest of these records released, no matter what 261 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: they say, no matter what they tell us about the assassination. 262 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: And I also had a great interest in the medical evidence, 263 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: and I thought, this is my chance, one way or 264 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: another to learn more about the part of the case 265 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: that intrigues me the most were the conflicts and the 266 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: medical evidence, because I mean, a body after someone's been 267 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: killed by gunshot is a map of the shooting. Where 268 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: did the bullets go in, where did they come out? 269 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: And the diagrams of those things tells you from whence 270 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: the bullets came. So I knew that one of the 271 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: people that had interviewed me, the head of Research and Analysis, 272 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: Jeremy Gunn, was also the general counsel. 273 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: For the Review Board. 274 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: He was double headed and he had an intense interest 275 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: in the medical evidence as well, and that became apparent 276 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: during my interview. So we clicked on that score. And 277 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: you know, he had to fill out four teams of people, 278 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: a military records team, which is what I was hired 279 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: to work on, an FBI records team, a CIA records team, 280 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: and the fourth one was Secret Service and all other agencies. 281 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: So officially they hired me because they needed another person 282 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: on the military records team and they still had a 283 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 2: vacancy there, and they also wanted to hire one person 284 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: on the staff, just one who was widely read in 285 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: the literature of the assassination, the literature by the critics, 286 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: and so that I would know where to go and 287 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: what book to find leads on where to find records. 288 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: It was that simple on the surface. Beneath the surface, 289 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: it was Jeremy Gunn someone of a like mind to 290 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: assist him with looking into the medical and medicals. And 291 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: the reason is you might ask, well, how can you 292 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: look into that if you weren't allowed to reinvestigate. Well, 293 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: this was a special case. It's a great story. Congressman 294 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: Stokes from Ohio, from Cleveland, as it turned out, was 295 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: still in office at the time, and he met with 296 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: the five board members as they were going through their 297 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: process of being confirmed by the Senate, and he told 298 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: them at the time that no one was satisfied with 299 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: the findings of the House elect Committee on Assassinations with 300 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: regard to the medical evidence, no one was really satisfied, 301 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: and that he encouraged them to do all they could 302 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: to quote clarify the record unquote in that area. And 303 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: so the board members had a kind of an informal 304 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: mandate from the former chairman of the HSCA Chairman Stokes, 305 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: to do some let's call it quasi reinvestigation. Other words, 306 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: the Review Board was never going to be allowed to 307 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 2: publish findings of fact or conclusions. But what we were 308 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: allowed to do was take depositions and conduct witness interviews. 309 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 2: So a deposition being a sworn witness interview with a 310 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: court recorder, you know, making a record of it verbatim record, 311 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 2: or disconduct unsworn interviews where we would write an interview 312 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: report afterwards, and we can deposit those in the JFK 313 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: records collection. So the American people have can have access 314 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 2: to these depositions and interviews later and make up their 315 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: own minds. That was the whole idea, was that the 316 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 2: American people could study the records placed in the JFK 317 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: Records collection and make up their own minds about what 318 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: had happened. That's all the Congress had stomach for. They 319 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: did not have the stomach to empower a new investigation. 320 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: So, just for clarity's sake, you're in Washington. The board 321 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: is in Washington. You relocate to Washington. This is formed 322 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: by a Senate committee. 323 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: Oh no, the Senate approved the board members who had 324 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: been appointed. 325 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: Who formed the board? 326 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 2: Who formed the board, Well, the JFK Records Act had 327 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: baked into it the template of how these people were selected. 328 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: So one of the people was selected by the American 329 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: Bar Association, and that was Jack Tunheim, who shortly afterwards, 330 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 2: after he accepted his appointment, he was then given a 331 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: federal judgeship and accepted it. So he's a federal judge 332 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: at the time I go to work there. 333 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: But the formation of the board is embedded in the 334 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: Act itself. 335 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 2: Oh, it's embedded in the Act. So the Act established 336 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: the requirement to locate and declassified records. It established the 337 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 2: structure of the board, and so two of the board 338 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: members were appointed by American historical societies, the unions as 339 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: it were for college history professors. 340 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of academics. 341 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: Here, academics, and one was an archivist, and one was 342 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: appointed by the White House. So that was another historian, 343 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: Henry Grafts. So Henry graft is an historian. Bill Joyce 344 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: was an archivist. Kermit Hall and Anna Nelson were historians, 345 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: and then Jack Dunheim was a federal judge. 346 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: The board is embedded in the act itself. How many 347 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: people on the staff would you say? 348 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 2: There were about twenty five people on the staff roughly 349 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: when we were fully staffed up, and most of them 350 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 2: were analysts like myself, and some were clerical, but most 351 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: were analysts. So on the Military Records Team, I had 352 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 2: three major areas of interest which Jeremy Gunn, my boss, 353 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: my big boss, supported and concurred with. So the first 354 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: one was finding records in the government on Cuba and 355 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: Vietnam policy, and that was the function of the Military 356 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: Records Team. The second area of interest was the medical 357 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 2: evidence and the reason I got to do that as 358 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: a military team member was it was a military autopsy, 359 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: but as the Naval hospital, so that falls under the 360 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: military team. That's the big unofficial reason why Jeremy hired 361 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: me was I had an interest and a knowledge of 362 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: that area. And the third area of interest which was 363 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 2: developed as time went along was the Suppruter film, which 364 00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: we can get into later. 365 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: Get into that. So my question, then, my last question 366 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: before we dig into the main media, is when you 367 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: do depositions of ten people? Are you doing this completely 368 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: on your own? Are there lawyers with you? Do you 369 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: do with a staff of people do conduct the depositions? 370 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: Here's how it went. The person in charge of all 371 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: ten autopsy deponents, all ten depositions of autopsy participants and 372 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: witnesses was Jeremy Gunn. He was our general counsel. He 373 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 2: was the only one allowed to ask questions and talk 374 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 2: to the witness during the deposition. So he started out 375 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: with a small group of three people I think, helping 376 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: him develop exhibits and do research for him before the depositions, 377 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: and that was whittled down to one person and that 378 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: was me. So I was his primary and then sole 379 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: research assistant in preparing for each deposition. So I attended 380 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: each deposition with Jeremy. I sat right next to him. 381 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 2: I was allowed to pass him notes. I was expected 382 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: to hand him the exhibit when he needed it, hand 383 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: him the correct exhibit, constructive suggestions if he was forgetting 384 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: an important question, or write him notes. But he was 385 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: the only one allowed to speak to the witnesses. 386 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: You were there to assist him. Can you mention at 387 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: least a couple of the people you'd deposed. 388 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: Sure, all three autopsy pathologists at Bethesdenel Hospital, which was 389 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: doctor Humes in the Navy, doctor Boswell in the Navy, 390 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: and then an Army pathologist, doctor Fink, who arrived late 391 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: after the autopsy started and assisted the other two pathologists. 392 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 2: So they were still alive, and they reluctantly participated only 393 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 2: because we subpoened them and they didn't call our bluff 394 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: and they decided to reluctantly show up. They weren't looking 395 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 2: forward to it, but they showed up. 396 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: Well. Was their demeanor when they were being deposed. 397 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: And their demeanor very different. Humes was a domineering, arrogant person, 398 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 2: full of bluster. When he couldn't bully you into backing 399 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: off from a question, he gave you a flippant answer. 400 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: And there were four or five times during his deposition 401 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 2: when I thought he was going to get up and 402 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: walk out. 403 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: How dare you subpoena me? 404 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: And how dare you ask me those questions? Doctor Boswell 405 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: was very laconic, calm measured in his responses, and totally 406 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 2: unlike Humes in personality. He was not combative and he 407 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: was not arrogant. Doctor Fink played the game of I'm 408 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: an old man, I can't remember anything. Fortunately, in two 409 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: or three important instances he did remember and gave us 410 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: to honest answers, which we can get into, but he 411 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: played I'm a forgetful old man as a cop out. 412 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: Boswell gave us much more information than either of the 413 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: other two, and for the first time we had split 414 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 2: up the pathologists and done them on different days. They 415 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 2: weren't in the room at the same time, so we 416 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: got Boswell contradicting Humes on a number of occasions which 417 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 2: had never happened before, which was very important. So two 418 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: of the other important opponents were the two FBI agents 419 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: who were present at the autopsy, Cybert and O'Neil. They 420 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: had been interviewed briefly by Arlen Spector, one of the 421 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: Warren Commision staff attorneys who later became a senator. And 422 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 2: he didn't get along with them. They didn't get along 423 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: with him, and he decided he was not going to 424 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: take their depositions. And even the report they wrote about 425 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: what they witnessed at the autopsy was deep sixth and 426 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: it wasn't published by the Warren Commission. It was in 427 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 2: the archives, but the Warren Commission didn't publish it or 428 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: deal with it. 429 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: Well. 430 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: They maintained that that yes, they heard hum say that 431 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: there were only two shots that hit the president, and 432 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 2: they were both from behind, but that the back wound 433 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: was so low that it couldn't possibly have gone through 434 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: his neck, and that it did not exit the body anywhere, 435 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: and so the government didn't like that, and the Warren 436 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 2: Commission didn't like that. So that's why they were ignored. 437 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 2: So that the House Committee had interviewed them. The House 438 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: staff had interviewed them each one time, and they wrote 439 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: little interview reports, and then those reports were among the 440 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 2: records that were sealed for fifty years, which was nonsense. 441 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: And so we read their interview reports and all the 442 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: other House Select Committee interview reports in nineteen ninety three 443 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: when they were opened up by the JFKA Records Act 444 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: in ninety three, they became publicly available. So we had 445 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: reviewed all of these medical witness interviews from the HSCA, 446 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 2: and we decided, oh, we need to depose these FBI agents. 447 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: The government hasn't taken their their statements under oath yet, 448 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: so we did and they were very forthcoming and very 449 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: willing to cooperate. 450 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: Well before we dive into Bethesda and autopsys. So for 451 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to just ask you, in American history in 452 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: the last several decades, I can't think of a greater 453 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: example of this kind of gamesmanship where the American public, 454 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: and particularly that small section of it that has a 455 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: burning curiosity about the truth of this matter. I mean, 456 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: I was five years old when Kennedy was killed, but 457 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: I've been obsessed with it since I was, Like you said, 458 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: since I think I picked up They've killed the President 459 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: on a little turning book display in a seven to 460 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: eleven on the South Shove of Long Island where I 461 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: grew up, and there was Oswald's autopsy photograph his naked 462 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: body on a slab. 463 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 2: And yet there are no autopsy photos of the president, 464 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: which was the subject of the book, which was really 465 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: strange when you think about. 466 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: It, right, right, but nothing compares in our lifetimes in 467 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: my mind, to this treatment of the Warren Commission material. 468 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: Every decade, we're going to roll out this stuff, We're 469 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: going to give you all the information. We're gonna have 470 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: the Presidential Release Act or whatever the hell it is. 471 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: Who cares? And even recently with Trump when he was 472 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: in office, it was like, well, here it is again, 473 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: We're going to roll out all the stuff and lay 474 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: bare all the secrets and all the truths about Kennedy's assassination. 475 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: And then nah, maybe not. Who do you think or 476 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: who do you know? Because of all this work you've 477 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: done with records, Who do you think really controls this information? 478 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: And who do you and therefore is suppressing it from 479 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: being I'm assuming he's not the President's who controls this 480 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: information and refuses to release it. 481 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: It's my understanding that of those records which are still withheld, 482 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: almost every single one is a CIA record, and it's 483 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: that agency comes up. They come up with the last 484 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: minute every time there's a you know, let's back up 485 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: just a second here. So the last of the Review 486 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: Board records that had been withheld for a number of 487 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: years were supposed to have been released in the year 488 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, no matter what. So before that there was 489 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 2: a staggered sequence of releases withholding names or withholding some 490 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 2: sources and methods and things like that if they were 491 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 2: considered sensitive. And in the year twenty seventeen, everything was 492 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 2: supposed to be released and it wasn't. So we got 493 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: a false alarm under Trump and then false alarms under Biden, 494 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: where each time it was the CIA primarily they came 495 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 2: up and said, oh, not so fast, mister President. We 496 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 2: object to the release of these remaining records, a few 497 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: thousand records because we think it will damage national security. 498 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 2: Just nonsense. This many years later. 499 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: Jfk assassination expert Douglas Horn. If you enjoy conversations with 500 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: those with the inside track on how our government actually works, 501 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: check out my episode with Michael Wolfe, author of Fire 502 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: and Fury, Inside the Trump White House. 503 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 3: Not to be too high falutin, but I try to 504 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: make a distinction between being a journalist and being a writer. 505 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 3: I'm interested in, you know, why people do things, how 506 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 3: they got to be who they are, how they talk, 507 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 3: how they roll, and maybe in the end, the big 508 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 3: difference I see between myself and everybody else is It's 509 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 3: just me. I don't work for a company on the page. 510 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 3: You just get me, and you can be assured of 511 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 3: that it's not something else, It's not some other committee. 512 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Michael Wolf, go 513 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Douglas 514 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: Horn tells us why and how Kennedy's autopsy photos were falsified. 515 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 516 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy was shot while riding in the presidential 517 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: motorcade through Dealey Plaza. The thirty fifth president of the 518 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: United States, was taken to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas 519 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: and pronounced dead. I wanted ARRB chief analyst Douglas Horn 520 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: to walk us through the events that followed. 521 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: So he shot at twelve thirty. They arrived at the 522 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: hospital about twelve thirty eight. He's pronounced dead at one o'clock. 523 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: He actually flatlined a few minutes before that, but he 524 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: was officially pronounced dead at one o'clock. A funeral home 525 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: rings an ornate display coffin, very heavy bronze coffin, and 526 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: he's put in that, and he's taken on board Air 527 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 2: Force one at love Field at two fourteen pm, and 528 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 2: then Jackie goes on board at two eighteen pm. And 529 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: then the judge arrives at two thirty pm to swear 530 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: hi men, to swear in LBJ, which many people have 531 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: said was not necessary. But he wanted the public relations 532 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: value of that photograph, and so he got it. 533 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: He got what he wanted. 534 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: The plane takes off at two forty seven Central time, 535 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 2: it lands, it's about a two hour and thirteen minute trip. 536 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: So it lands at Andrews Air Force Base south of Washington, 537 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: d C. At six o'clock pm Local time, six o'clock 538 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: pm Eastern Standard time. And that's where the story gets strange. 539 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: And I'm just going to relay some simple facts, timeline 540 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: facts to your audience and hopefully it'll attract some attention 541 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: and they'll stay tuned here because this is the heart 542 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 2: of the story. The Secret Service in radio conversations, which 543 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: we have recordings of. Much of the conversations, part of 544 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: them has been edited and remain edited. But the Secret 545 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: Service decided that the autopsy is going to be at 546 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: Bethesda Naval Hospital and that the body would go by helicopter. 547 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: That was what they decided on the radio telling the airplane. 548 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: The people on the airplane wanted the autopsy at Walter 549 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: Reed Army Hospital, and they wanted it to go buy 550 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: a car, but the Secret Service said, no, we're going 551 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 2: to do it at Bethesda and the Navy, and we're 552 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: going to fly it by helicopter. So here's what happens. 553 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: The plane comes to a stop at six oh four PM. 554 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 2: A light gray Navy ambulance pulls up next to the airplane. 555 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: Now that was a cardiac ambulance. It was not a hearse. 556 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: It was sent because there was a rumor that Lyndon 557 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: Johnson had another heart attack like he had in the 558 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties. That was why that was sent there. So anyway, 559 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: Jackie sees the gray ambulance and she says, we'll go 560 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: in that. And nobody was going to contradict her in 561 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 2: those circumstances. So the casket that the President was placed 562 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: in Dallas, the heavy bronze casket was loaded somewhat unceremoniously 563 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: by Secret Service agents and part of the military honor guard. 564 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: They're both kind of fighting over who's going to handle 565 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: the casket. It's put into the cardiac ambulance because Jackie said, 566 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: we'll go in that, and that drives away at about 567 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: ten minutes after six. Is she in the car, Yes, 568 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: she's in the car with Robert Kennedy and the President's 569 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 2: military physician Berkeley, and the two Secret Service agents who 570 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: were in the death car in Dallas. They're in there. 571 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: Agent Greer's driving. He drove the limousine in Dallas and 572 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 2: he drove this cardiac ambulance. He kicked the driver out 573 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: and he took over Gweer and who Greer and Kellerman 574 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: and Roy Kellerman was in the right front seat of 575 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: the limousine in Dallas, and he's in the right front 576 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: seat of this like gray ambulance. So they all drive 577 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: out and that car. 578 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: This is very now. 579 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: That car does not arrive at Bethesda Naval Hospital until 580 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 2: six fifty five pm, five minutes to seven. That's recorded 581 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: by Secret Service agents in the reports and by the newspapermen. 582 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: So that's a fact. You can't ignore that fact. But 583 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: here's here's the problem. There was a Marine Corps sergeant 584 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: named Boyagiin and Sergeant Boyagin was there to provide physical 585 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 2: security with his marines from the Marine barracks for the autopsy, 586 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: and he wrote a report just a few days later, 587 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: the day after the funeral. Funeral's on Monday, the twenty 588 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: fifth November. He writes a report the next day, and 589 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 2: he says the president's casket arrived at six thirty five PM. 590 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 2: Six thirty five, that's twenty minutes before the motorcade arrives 591 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 2: out front from Andrews. And not only that, it's in 592 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 2: the wrong car and it's in the wrong kind of casket. 593 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: So other people who were present on the loading dock 594 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: noted that the car that delivered the President at six 595 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: thirty five PM was a black hearse, something that a 596 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: funeral home would own, in this case Gawler's funeral home. 597 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 2: They did the embalming on the President, so it's their car. 598 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: And the casket taken off at six thirty five is 599 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 2: not this ornate bronze viewing casket that was used in Dallas. 600 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 2: It's a cheap aluminum metal shipping casket that you would 601 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: use to ship bodies on airplanes and trains with. So 602 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: we have the new time marker, the real time marker 603 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: of six thirty five PM when JFK really arrives at Bethesda, 604 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: and we have other witnesses, very reliable witnesses, Navy Petty 605 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 2: Officer Dennis David and others that'd say, yes, it's arrived 606 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: in a blackhearse and we unloaded the casket. It was 607 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 2: a cheap gray metal box. It was not a fancy 608 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: viewing asport casket. Yeah right, it was a transport ca 609 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 2: So the real question is and so let's give the 610 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: audience to the other time marker. The honor guard is 611 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: separate and distinct from the security guard. So the security 612 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: guards at the morgue or Sergeant Boyagian's team of Marines 613 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: from the Marine barracks, they're people wearing the same uniform 614 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 2: and they're carrying guns, and that's their jobs to provide 615 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: physical security. The honor Guard are people that assembled at 616 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: Andrews Air Force Base. There are people from all the 617 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: different military services plus the Coastguard. They're in dress uniforms, 618 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 2: they're wearing white gloves, and they do not have guns 619 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: and their jobs to serve as pall bearers an honor guard. 620 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 2: So they carry the Dallas casket, the bronze expensive casket, 621 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: and at eight o'clock PM, much later, not until eight 622 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: o'clock PM, and the official autopsy starts shortly after eight 623 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: o'clock PM, and in fact, the FBI agent's recorded in 624 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 2: their report that the first incision was at eight to fifteen. 625 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: So we've got some problems here. 626 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: So what happened? You've got my heart pounding here. It's 627 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: like a shell game. Which casket is JFK's body in? 628 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 2: It is a shell game, and it's an intentional shell game. 629 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: It's a cover up on the fly. So here's that's 630 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: what happens. The president's body really did arrive at six 631 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: thirty five PM in the black curse, in the cheap 632 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: metal shipping casket, the transport casket, and that's recorded by 633 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 2: a gawler's funeral home document where they say, receive a 634 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: metal shipping casket, you know from Dallas, Texas. Okay, So 635 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: when a person from a funeral home runs shipping casket, 636 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: that means something to them. It's not an ornate viewing coffin. 637 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 2: It's a shipping casket. So the question is what happened 638 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 2: to his body between six thirty five when it really 639 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: arrived and eight o'clock PM when the honor guard takes 640 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: in the bronze casket. What happens for those it's almost 641 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 2: ninety minutes. It's an eighty five minute period. What's happening 642 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 2: to his body. I'll cut to the chase and give 643 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 2: you the big picture now, because I think it's important 644 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 2: that people have that in their minds, and then we 645 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: can go back and tie up any loose ends if 646 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 2: you'd like after. But here's what really happened. The President 647 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: arrived with the same wounds he had on his head 648 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 2: in Della Texas. A big blowout in the right rear 649 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: of his head, about the size of a baseball or 650 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: a human fist, in the right rear of his head, 651 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: not in the top of his head, and not on 652 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 2: the right side of his head, in the right rear 653 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 2: of his head. That's the blowout that's missing bone and scalp. 654 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: A flap, Well, there was more than just a flap with. 655 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: That chunk of bone that was flapped over that stayed 656 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: correct intact, that flap that they closed. 657 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: Well, no, that's not true. That's the story that the 658 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 2: government's been wanting to tell. 659 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: And that's a bogus picture. Okay, thank god you're here 660 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: to tell me. 661 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: For example, the reason we know it's a bogus picture 662 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: is Agent Clint Hill, the Secret Service. Most people have 663 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 2: heard his name. He rode on the back of the car, 664 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: the limousine on the way to the hospital. He jumped 665 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: onto the JFK's limousine and shielded the President and first 666 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: Lady for seven or eight minutes on the way to Parkland. 667 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 2: And he wrote a report a week later, and he 668 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: testified the following spring, and he said the same thing 669 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 2: each time, that the right rear of the President's head 670 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 2: was missing, and that a piece of bone with hair 671 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: on it was lying in the back seat. So it's 672 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 2: very clear from him and from the Dallas doctor's treatment notes, 673 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 2: the treatment notes they made the day that the President died, 674 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 2: that there is a large area of missing bone and 675 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: scalp in the right rear. 676 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: The uniformity among all the staff at Barklay. 677 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, uniformity. And so when the President was taken 678 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: out of his shipping casket and first examined, he had 679 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 2: the same wound on his head, the same noticeable large 680 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: exit wound in the right rear of the head, because 681 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: exit wounds are big and entrance wounds are small, that 682 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 2: he had in Dallas. The trouble is over an hour 683 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 2: and a half later at the official autopsy after eight 684 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 2: o'clock in front of a large audience of over thirty 685 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 2: three people. And this is a teaching hospital, so you've 686 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 2: got a bleachers there, three rows of bleachers, very large 687 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: audience there. The wounds look totally different after eight o'clock 688 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 2: at night. The entire top of the head is gone. 689 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 2: All the bone on the top of his head has 690 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 2: been removed. There's nothing but shredded scalp on the top. 691 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: Of his head. 692 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 2: The rear of his head is also still gone, but 693 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: you can't tell that from the photographs those have been 694 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: that's been cleverly disguised. So most of the autopsy photographs 695 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 2: that show the top of the head missing gone, which 696 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 2: is not what anybody saw on Dallas. The back of 697 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 2: the head is obscured in those photographs. It's lying in 698 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 2: a metal head brace. So he's lying on his back 699 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 2: on an examination table. You can't see the back of 700 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 2: his head because his head is supported in a metal 701 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: stirrup or head brace, so all you can see is 702 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: the right side, which is rather gory looking, flapped out, 703 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 2: big temporal bone flap flapped out, and the top of 704 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 2: the head missing like what. So I'm telling you that 705 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: that's what was going on between the early arrival of 706 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: the president's body and they started the autopsy. His wounds 707 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 2: were expanded to gain access to his brain and remove 708 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 2: all the metal that could be found from his brain. 709 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: In that ninety minute window. Oh yes, well, I want 710 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,280 Speaker 1: to put a finer point on this for the audience. 711 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: And in that ninety minute window, which is not accounted 712 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: for specifically, I mean it is as far as you're 713 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: concern But in that ninety minute window, obviously we have 714 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: some of the most purposeful cosmetic surgery ever performed in 715 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: history to make it look like he was shot from behind. 716 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 2: Correct, I will disagree with that. So here's the deal. 717 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 2: What was done to him was not only profane and 718 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 2: highly illegal obstruction of justice. At the very least, it 719 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 2: was just like opening up a can. Okay, nothing was 720 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 2: put back together. This is where Lyfton went astray in 721 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 2: his book Best Evidence. There was no reconstructive surgery to 722 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 2: put back together what these conspirators had opened up to 723 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 2: get access to evidence. He was presented that way to 724 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 2: the audience after eight o'clock as well. This is the 725 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 2: way he arrived. This is what the bullet did. It 726 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 2: blew off part of the back of his head and 727 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 2: the entire top of his head and part of the 728 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 2: right side of his head. It blew it all away, 729 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: and so the audience was disbelieving of this. There this 730 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 2: audience was were medical staff the hospital, They were heads 731 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 2: of department and other physicians, and so they were aghast 732 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: at this macabre scene that they saw. After eight o'clock, 733 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 2: some of the people you deposed, the House Committee interviewed 734 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 2: some of these people in the audience, and what we 735 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: have over the years is there were two Navy cormen 736 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: who were present assisting the three pathologists all night long. 737 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 2: The two Navy cormen were Paul O'Connor and James Jenkins. 738 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 2: And so what they told the House Committee and what 739 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 2: they've told researchers over the years after the gag order 740 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: was lifted in the seventies, was that the audience was 741 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 2: hostile in disbelieving that a bullet, one bullet could have 742 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 2: caused all this cranial damage. And it's even worse than that. 743 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: Alec Jim Jenkins, this corman I just mentioned, witnessed after 744 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 2: eight o'clock. He witnessed the brain of the president literally 745 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 2: fell out of his cranium into the hands of doctor Humes, 746 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 2: and doctor Humes said, quote unquote, the damn thing's fallen 747 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,240 Speaker 2: out in my hands, quote unquote. That just doesn't happen, Alex. 748 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 2: I mean, your brain is connected to your spinal cord 749 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 2: and there are other structures connecting the brain to the 750 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 2: bottom of your cranium, and. 751 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: It fell out because it had been previously removed to 752 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: pull out all the metal out of his brain, that's right. 753 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 2: And so what was done between six point thirty five 754 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 2: and eight o'clock was somebody sanitized the crime scene by 755 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 2: removing evidence, removing entrance wounds from the front where they 756 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 2: could up cover up, removing as much bullet as you 757 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 2: could from the brain, in which if you do that, 758 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 2: if you remove all the bullet fragments from the brain, 759 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: then you can control the narrative later with planet bullets, 760 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 2: which is what they did. So, Yeah, that brain had 761 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 2: been removed earlier. And Jim Jenkins is still alive, and 762 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 2: he insists today that it had to have been removed 763 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: earlier that evening because a brain just doesn't fall out 764 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 2: of your cranium like that, and his job is to 765 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 2: infuse the brain. So the brain was put upside down 766 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 2: in a sling, in a bucket of fromaldehyde, and it 767 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 2: was his job to infuse the arteries. You know, the 768 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: carotid arteries go up through your neck into your brain. 769 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 2: And so the brain that had been removed was put 770 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 2: upside down in a bucket in a sling, and it 771 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 2: was Jenkins's job to infuse the arteries with fromaldehyde from 772 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: a big container on top of a cabinet. And he 773 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 2: had a very hard time infusing formaldehyde into the brain 774 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 2: because he said the arteries had been cut earlier and 775 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,800 Speaker 2: were retracting all by themselves. They were shrinking and shriveling 776 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 2: up and retracting, and he says, that's proof that the 777 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 2: brain was removed earlier that night. He says, also the 778 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: brain stem had been severed on the left and the 779 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 2: right with two surgical cuts. It was not torn, two 780 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 2: surgical cuts that were on different planes, on different levels. 781 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 2: So he noticed all this when he was infusing the brain. 782 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 2: So that's evidence to him that the brain was removed 783 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 2: earlier that evening. So Humes and Boswell are engaged in 784 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 2: a charade after eight o'clock. You have to understand this. 785 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 2: The audience expresses disbelief that this damage could all have 786 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 2: been caused by one bullet. And at that point, Humes says, 787 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 2: and the FBI agents recorded this that that's why the 788 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 2: Warrant Commission didn't want to publish their report. They said, 789 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 2: he said that it was apparent that surgery had been 790 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 2: performed on the top of the head. Humes said that, 791 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: and they recorded what he said. Now, I think he panicked, 792 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 2: is what happened. He panicked because Jim Jenkins recalls doctor 793 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 2: Boswell Humes's colligue saying to the people in the gallery. 794 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 2: There were flag officers, generals and admirals in the gallery, 795 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 2: and they saying to them, whe is there surgery performed 796 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,719 Speaker 2: and died? Yeah? Boss says that, yeah, yeah. And so 797 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 2: here's the problem. Boswell created this famous sketch from the autopsy, 798 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 2: which is the damage to the top of the president's head. 799 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 2: And if you look at that sketch today, you'll see 800 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 2: that it's only the top of the head. So when 801 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 2: he makes the sketch, the President's lying on his back 802 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 2: on the examination table. He's sketching the damage to the 803 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,720 Speaker 2: top of the head, and what he sketches is totally 804 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 2: unlike anything seen at Parkland Hospital. He sketches the entire 805 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 2: the bone and the entire top of the head missing, 806 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 2: and he writes the dimensions of this area ten by 807 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 2: seventeen centimeters missing. So he was asked by the House 808 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 2: Committee and then by the Review Board under oath, what 809 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 2: do these notations mean? You drew a dotted line around 810 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 2: the top of the head ten by seventeen missing. He said, 811 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 2: this is the area that was totally devoid of bone, 812 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 2: and so he would he's representing in his sketch and 813 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 2: for posterity that this was all removed by the assass 814 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 2: bullet blown out. And of course we went down to Dallas, 815 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,439 Speaker 2: Jeremy Gunn and I. We interviewed three people who saw 816 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 2: the president's body while he was being treated, who were 817 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 2: not interviewed by the Worn Commission, and we asked, Nurse 818 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 2: Bell and doctor Crenshaw, did you see any damage to 819 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 2: the top of the President's head? And they looked at 820 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 2: us like we were crazy, and they said no. Then 821 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 2: they used that tone of voice, they said no. They 822 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 2: were astonished that we would ask. They said, the top 823 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 2: of his head to all appearances, appeared to be intact. 824 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 2: They said there was no bone sticking out, and the 825 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 2: hair appeared to be intact. There was blood everywhere. There 826 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 2: was a lot of blood. And so what Boswell is doing, 827 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 2: I think, is making a sketch before eight o'clock PM 828 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 2: of the damage incurred by this post mortem surgery to 829 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,320 Speaker 2: sanitize the crime scene. And he's representing it as damage 830 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 2: from the assassin's bullet. And it's a con job, to 831 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 2: be honest with you. So if you marry up his 832 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 2: sketch with the two Grizzly autopsy photos that show the 833 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 2: top of the head missing, they more or less match. 834 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 2: And yet so here's what we did, which was really fascinating. 835 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 2: We knew we had a two dimensional diagram made by 836 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 2: Boswell of just the top of the head and the 837 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 2: bone missing from the top of the head. And I 838 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 2: had suggested to Jeremy Gunn I said, we need to 839 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 2: present him with a skull model. I said, I know 840 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 2: where to get one. I can build one that's anatomically correct. 841 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 2: It's got all the sutures in it, where the bones 842 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,439 Speaker 2: really are and everything. We can ask him to turn 843 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 2: that two dimensional sketch into a three dimensional sketch so 844 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 2: that we can find out was there any bone missing 845 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 2: in the back. And so we did that, and doctor 846 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 2: Boswell marked on the skull model and it's in the archives. 847 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 2: You can see it today if you make an appointment 848 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,719 Speaker 2: and go look at it. That not only according to him, 849 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 2: is the bone missing in the top of the head 850 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 2: and on the right side of the head, but it's 851 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 2: all missing in the right rear also, in other words, 852 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 2: the place where the Dallas doctors said it was gone 853 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 2: in the right rear. It's also missing there, but also 854 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 2: in the top and the right side. So he was 855 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 2: honest about that much. At least, he was honest about 856 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 2: the fact that all the bone was missing in the 857 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 2: right rear, whereas doctor Humes wasn't. He lied and said, 858 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 2: oh no, that was all that was all intact. It 859 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 2: was fractured, but it was all intact. None of it 860 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,800 Speaker 2: was missing. And then a week later, under oath, Boswell 861 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 2: contradicts him and tells us the truth that, oh no, 862 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 2: that was missing too. 863 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: Assassination Records Review Board Chief analyst Douglas Horn. If you're 864 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to 865 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: follow here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or 866 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Douglas 867 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: Horn shares the timeline for developing the Zappruder film and 868 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: what he believes happened that led to it being doctored. 869 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,359 Speaker 1: I'm ALC. Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 870 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: Douglas Horn believes that a cover up of the JFK 871 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: assassination began almost instantaneously. Horn collected data and evidence that 872 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,760 Speaker 1: he claims can prove that the conspiracy stretched from Washington, 873 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 1: d C. And Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland to Parkland 874 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: Hospital in Dallas. 875 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 2: Well, there's one man on the ground in Dallas. It's 876 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 2: really important to understand this. Who's an honest broker in 877 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,600 Speaker 2: all this? So the county coroner, Earl Rose, Doctor Earl Rose, said, 878 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 2: this is a murderer in Dallas County and we have 879 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 2: to do an autopsy. It's the law in the state 880 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,120 Speaker 2: of Texas. And you're not leaving with the body. And 881 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 2: he says, we're going to do an autopsy in Texas 882 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,120 Speaker 2: and that's at this point. At this point JFK's body 883 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 2: had been he had long been declared dead at one o'clock. 884 00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,720 Speaker 2: This is shortly before two pm. He's in this bronze 885 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 2: ornate casket, the casket sealed. It's on a church truck, 886 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 2: a vehicle with wheels. They can go up and down 887 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 2: like an a accordion. The lift scissors lyft and they're 888 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 2: wheeling it out. So the widow is there and the 889 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 2: Secret Service is moving this thing, and one of the 890 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 2: funeral home people, Aubrey Reich, he's there, and so there's 891 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 2: this profane exchange of shouting and pushing between members of 892 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 2: the Secret Service who insist on removing the body and 893 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 2: taking it to Washington, and this honest County corner Earl Rose. 894 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 2: He says, no, we're going to comply with the law 895 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,879 Speaker 2: and do an autopsy in Texas. And so they were 896 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 2: bound and determined that there was not going to be 897 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,280 Speaker 2: an autopsy in Texas. And so, you know, they brandished 898 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 2: their weapons, They pulled aside their coats and showed their pistols, 899 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 2: and one of them even had a submachine gun. And 900 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 2: so he was actually picked up and slammed against the wall. Eventually, 901 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 2: and one of the doctors and attendants who witnessed this 902 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,840 Speaker 2: said in a recorded interview in the eighties, he said, 903 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 2: they told doctor Rose, if you don't get out of 904 00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 2: the way, we will run you over with the casket. 905 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,840 Speaker 2: So this is a very heavy, four hundred plus pounds 906 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 2: bronze casket when it was empty with a body inside. 907 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,480 Speaker 2: We're going to run you over with a casket. And 908 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 2: all of this unseemly behavior is occurring in front of 909 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 2: the poor widow. It's really really macabre and disturbing. 910 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: You don't mind if we use your dead husband's body 911 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: as a battering ram to knock these people out of 912 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 1: the way so we can go come in our cover 913 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: up of your husband's death. But what's interesting to me, 914 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,680 Speaker 1: forget about who they are for the time being. That's 915 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 1: always the quandary. But there's people on the ground in Dallas, 916 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: and there's people in Bethesda awaiting them, and we're switching coffins, 917 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,359 Speaker 1: and we're switching cars, and we're doing this and that, 918 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: and we're having bodies arrive ninety minutes, you know, unaccounted 919 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: for until later on it's accounted for, but arriving and 920 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,919 Speaker 1: then doing their work, you know, their cover up work, 921 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,920 Speaker 1: fumes and so forth. Now the other aspect I want 922 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,200 Speaker 1: to talk to you about, which is even more we're 923 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,840 Speaker 1: kind of devastating us. As most people know, the most 924 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,840 Speaker 1: vital piece of this whole thing is the Zapruder Film. 925 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: For most Americans, it's a movie taken by Abraham Zapruder. 926 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: I think he's a dressmaker. Correct, he's in the clothing business. 927 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 2: That's right, he's a dressmaker. And he has a shop 928 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 2: in the dal Text building, which is right across the street, 929 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,800 Speaker 2: right across Houston Street from the book depositor. 930 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,800 Speaker 1: And now I want you to take us through Supruder's there. 931 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: He's got a camera in his hand. He's filming what happens. 932 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,759 Speaker 1: It's a horror movie because the thing that always never 933 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 1: ceases to be so ghastly to me is here. This 934 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: man was the president of the United States back in 935 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: the time when I think that meant something to most people. 936 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: And they blow the top of his head off, the 937 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,400 Speaker 1: back of his head off, right in front of his wife. 938 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: But I want you to take us through a timeline 939 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,640 Speaker 1: of Supruders. There he's filming the event. Where does that 940 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 1: film go in a timeline after that? 941 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 2: Okay, the timeline, the real timeline is very firmly established now. 942 00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 2: And part of the work was done by the review 943 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 2: board staff, by me and Jeremy, and part of it 944 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 2: was done years later by independent researchers. But here's what 945 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 2: really happened. Zapruter. A couple of cops showed up at 946 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 2: his office. They're in Deely Pleasant and wanted to film, 947 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 2: and they had shotguns, and his secretary wouldn't give it 948 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,399 Speaker 2: to him, and he wouldn't give it to him, and 949 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,399 Speaker 2: so a secret service guy showed up and he says, well, 950 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 2: I'll stay with you. Let's get it developed. And so 951 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 2: everybody goes together to the local TV station. Zapruter does 952 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 2: a brief interview, and the reason they went there was 953 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,239 Speaker 2: he mistakenly thought they might develop it for him. Well, 954 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 2: they didn't have the capability. This is a special codochrome 955 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,799 Speaker 2: two daylight film. There's only four code act plants that 956 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 2: can develop this in the entire country, and one of 957 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 2: them is in Dallas. But the TV station can't do it. 958 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 2: They can only do black and white newsreel film. So 959 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 2: he does a little interview there and then the people 960 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 2: he's with, numerous people, they take him over to the 961 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,840 Speaker 2: Kodeac plant. So the original film shot in his camera 962 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 2: Bell and Howe movie camera is developed in the Kodak 963 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 2: plant in Dallas that afternoon, and it's a double eight film, 964 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 2: and it's a double eight means that you've got a 965 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 2: piece of film. I'll keep it real simple here, sixteen 966 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,920 Speaker 2: milimeters wide. Double eight means you got one strip on 967 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 2: one side, side A, that's eight milimeters wide, one strip 968 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,640 Speaker 2: on the other side that's another eight milimeters wide, Side 969 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 2: A and side B, and they're upside down and backwards 970 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,600 Speaker 2: from each other. So when you shoot your twenty five 971 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,120 Speaker 2: feet of side A, which he had already done at 972 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 2: home with a home movie, you've got to flip the 973 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 2: film around in the camera. The take up reil becomes 974 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,960 Speaker 2: the new supply reel, and vice versa. And so the 975 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,439 Speaker 2: assassination was on side B, it was on the other 976 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 2: side of the film. And so what they have developed 977 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 2: is a double eight film that's still sixteen milimeters wide, 978 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,400 Speaker 2: it's got images upside down and backwards, and it's not 979 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,880 Speaker 2: yet slit down the middle. So they look at it 980 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,600 Speaker 2: quickly in a sixteen milimeter projector to make sure it's 981 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 2: good images, very good images, crystal clear. So he says, okay, 982 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,719 Speaker 2: I want three copies of this today, and they said, oh, 983 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 2: if you want copies, we're not going to slit this 984 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,839 Speaker 2: film down the middle. Yet, because normally what they do 985 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 2: is they slid a film down the middle, and then 986 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,359 Speaker 2: you've got instead of one sixteen millimeter wide double eight 987 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,759 Speaker 2: film that's twenty five feet long, you would have two 988 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 2: eight millimeter films a total of fifty feet long after 989 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 2: they splice them together. So they said, okay, we're not 990 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,200 Speaker 2: going to slit these yet. We're going to give you 991 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 2: three rolls of a film that you can use as 992 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 2: duplicating film. We're going to send you over to another 993 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,759 Speaker 2: lab where you can have this copied on what we 994 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,799 Speaker 2: call a contact printer. They said, we don't have a 995 00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,759 Speaker 2: contact printer. We're a developing lab. We're Kodak. We just 996 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,560 Speaker 2: develop movies. So you go over to the Jamison lab. 997 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 2: We'll call them and tell them you're coming. And I said, 998 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,400 Speaker 2: that's what he did, and he handed them his camera, 999 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,280 Speaker 2: original film still sixteen milimeters wide, and the three rolls 1000 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,280 Speaker 2: of duplicating film, and they ran off three identical copies 1001 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 2: for him on a contact printer, and then he took 1002 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,920 Speaker 2: those three copies and the original back over to Kodak, 1003 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,640 Speaker 2: and then Kodak had to also develop the three copies. 1004 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,440 Speaker 2: So once they did, and once Kodak determined that the 1005 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 2: three copies were pretty good contact print copies. They were 1006 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,160 Speaker 2: a little bit soft, but they were pretty darn good copies, 1007 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,880 Speaker 2: and of course the original was needle sharp. Then they 1008 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,279 Speaker 2: slid all four down to eight millimeters in width so 1009 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 2: they could be shown on an eight milimeter home projector. 1010 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,920 Speaker 2: So here's what happens. Later in the day, he goes 1011 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,520 Speaker 2: downtown to see Forest Sorels, who's the Secret Service agent 1012 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,319 Speaker 2: that took into the Kodak plant in the first place. Well, 1013 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 2: Sorels left and he's now busy with the interrogations of 1014 00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,279 Speaker 2: this fellow named Oswald. And so Sorels says, don't bother me, 1015 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 2: I'm busy. I don't have time for your film. He says, 1016 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,960 Speaker 2: why don't you take it? Go downtown to my office, 1017 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,680 Speaker 2: and if you want to share a couple of your copies, 1018 00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 2: give him to Agent Max Phillips. So the recruiter before 1019 00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 2: he goes home Friday night, he goes downtown. He gives 1020 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,680 Speaker 2: two of his three copies to Agent Max Phillips of 1021 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,320 Speaker 2: the Secret Service, and he keeps with him the camera 1022 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,319 Speaker 2: original and one of the copies. So of the two 1023 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 2: copies he gave the Secret Service that night, they flew 1024 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 2: one to Washington, d C. To the head of the 1025 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,800 Speaker 2: Secret Service overnight on an airplane and then arrived before 1026 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,200 Speaker 2: dawn the next day. That's fine, that makes sense to me. 1027 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,800 Speaker 2: The other copy that the Secret Service had in Dallas, 1028 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,080 Speaker 2: they loaned to the FBI. The next day, they loaned 1029 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,279 Speaker 2: it to the local FBI. The FBI flew at the 1030 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 2: Washington and it was at FBI headquarters starting Sunday, right 1031 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:37,880 Speaker 2: after midnight early am Sunday. So then what Zappruter has 1032 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,600 Speaker 2: in his possession the next morning, which is what's important. Saturday, 1033 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,520 Speaker 2: November twenty third, he has the camera original eight millimeter 1034 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,080 Speaker 2: and he has one of his eight milimeter copies remaining. 1035 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 2: He meets with Dick Stolly of Life magazine, the West 1036 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,880 Speaker 2: Coast editor who had flown out to Dallas to do 1037 00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 2: this negotiation. Stolly offers him some money and Zupruter just 1038 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,960 Speaker 2: smiles at him. It wasn't enough, So finally Stally says, okay, 1039 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,360 Speaker 2: the maximum I'm allowed to offer you is fifty thousand. 1040 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 2: So the first of two contracts was cut that day 1041 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,080 Speaker 2: for fifty thousand dollars. The Pruter agreed to do this. 1042 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,400 Speaker 2: He would only loan the original film, loan it for 1043 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,720 Speaker 2: a week to time Life, and then all they would 1044 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:27,000 Speaker 2: be able to do make stills was make still copies 1045 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:31,400 Speaker 2: of individual frames, still still picture rights, not motion picture rights, 1046 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 2: still picture rights, and after a week they would return 1047 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,400 Speaker 2: the original to him and he could do whatever he 1048 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,600 Speaker 2: wanted with it, then sell it as a movie, and 1049 00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 2: he would then give him his remaining copy give it 1050 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 2: to them after a week. So that's the deal that's 1051 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,280 Speaker 2: cut on Saturday. I'm going to tell you about the 1052 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,280 Speaker 2: new deal that was cut on Monday, and then I'll 1053 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,160 Speaker 2: tell you why that was necessary. On Monday, there's a 1054 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,360 Speaker 2: new contract cut by Life magazine, and it's bizarre because 1055 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,960 Speaker 2: it's not to their benefit. It's toz the pruter's benefit. 1056 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:02,920 Speaker 2: So now the total amount of the sale goes up 1057 00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,360 Speaker 2: from fifty thousand to one hundred and fifty thousand total. 1058 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,960 Speaker 1: A lot of money back then, Yeah, that's a. 1059 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,040 Speaker 2: Lot of money. And what they wanted was physical custody 1060 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,560 Speaker 2: of all three copies and of the original and motion 1061 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:16,200 Speaker 2: picture rights. 1062 00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,360 Speaker 1: When they want the rights to the film, they want. 1063 00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 2: All the rights to the film, not just still picture 1064 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 2: all the motion picture rights and physical custody of the 1065 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,480 Speaker 2: original forever, and of all three copies forever, and that's 1066 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,600 Speaker 2: the new deal cut on Monday. And of course so 1067 00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 2: Zapruter said, yeah, sure. So it's what happened in between. 1068 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,280 Speaker 2: That's really the fascinating heart of this Sapruder film mystery. 1069 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: Douglas Horn, This is but one of hundreds of episodes 1070 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:50,880 Speaker 1: from Here's the Thing. To hear more great conversations from experts, artists, 1071 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,760 Speaker 1: and political insiders, head to our archives at Here's the 1072 00:58:54,840 --> 00:59:00,240 Speaker 1: Thing dot org. When we return, Douglas Horn share the 1073 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:05,080 Speaker 1: accounts of eyewitness testimony on the ground in Dallas and 1074 00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 1: how they dispute what was reportedly captured in the Supruter film. 1075 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,040 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 1076 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:30,440 Speaker 1: Douglas Horne spent years collecting documents and witness testimony involved 1077 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,520 Speaker 1: in the jfk assassination. One of the puzzle pieces he 1078 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,320 Speaker 1: worked on was what happened to the Supruter film? After 1079 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 1: Life Magazine initially purchased the rights to it for one 1080 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:43,080 Speaker 1: week's time. 1081 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:48,800 Speaker 2: So here's what we know today. This story for years 1082 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,160 Speaker 2: based on the memoirs of one Life Magazine person, Loud 1083 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 2: and Wainwright based on his memoirs written many years later. 1084 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,800 Speaker 2: The official story was that, well, the film which Stolly. 1085 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,160 Speaker 2: You know, he bought the original Saturday, just to borrow 1086 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,680 Speaker 2: it for a week. He put it on an airplane 1087 01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:08,960 Speaker 2: to Chicago on Saturday. He didn't go with it, but 1088 01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,919 Speaker 2: he put it on an airplane to Chicago. And that's 1089 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,000 Speaker 2: the part that remains unchallenged today. That's the fact. What 1090 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,440 Speaker 2: happened to it after it got to Chicago is not 1091 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:22,200 Speaker 2: what Loud and Wainwright and the mainstream or a research 1092 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 2: community has maintained. It did not stay in Chicago all weekend, 1093 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,000 Speaker 2: as has been claimed for years. Here's what really happened. 1094 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,000 Speaker 2: Two Secret Service agents or people who said they were 1095 01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,280 Speaker 2: Secret Service, intercepted the film in Chicago at some point, 1096 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,760 Speaker 2: either at the airport or at the time Life Publishing plant. 1097 01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to assume it's at the time Life Publishing 1098 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,280 Speaker 2: plant probably. Those two agents show up with the original 1099 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,480 Speaker 2: Suppruiter film in Washington, d C. At ten o'clock PM 1100 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,600 Speaker 2: on Saturday night. The same day, ten o'clock pm. They 1101 01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,880 Speaker 2: had not seen the film yet, so they're couriering it. 1102 01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,200 Speaker 2: They're bringing it from wherever they came from. But Obviously 1103 01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,680 Speaker 2: they came from Chicago because that's where it was sent 1104 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,280 Speaker 2: by Dick Stalley. Who did they deliver it to. They 1105 01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,760 Speaker 2: deliver it to the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center, which 1106 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,680 Speaker 2: is abbreviated Inpick. So the job of Enpick that night 1107 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:19,200 Speaker 2: was to make briefing boards. And simply put, briefing boards 1108 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,760 Speaker 2: are stiff panels with blowups from individual frames, just still 1109 01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,240 Speaker 2: picture blow ups of individual frames. Paste it onto the 1110 01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,680 Speaker 2: briefing board so you can brief government officials on what 1111 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 2: does the film show what happened? So the Secret Service 1112 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,400 Speaker 2: agents tell Brigioni what prints they want. He had to 1113 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 2: go out and buy an eight milimeter projector in the 1114 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,800 Speaker 2: dark at night, because you know it's an eight milimeter film. 1115 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,000 Speaker 2: They didn't have an eight milimeter projector. They view it 1116 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:45,680 Speaker 2: several times. They then make the selections the Secret Service, 1117 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,960 Speaker 2: these are the ones we want. They leave town with 1118 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,720 Speaker 2: a film at three am Sunday. He doesn't know where 1119 01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,760 Speaker 2: they're going. We know now where they went. They went 1120 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:59,160 Speaker 2: to Kodak headquarters, to the Research and Development Lab Worldwide 1121 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:00,400 Speaker 2: Research and Development Live. 1122 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,680 Speaker 1: For Kodak in Rochester, Hawkeye. 1123 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:06,760 Speaker 2: In Rochester, YEP. Hawkeye Works and so how do we 1124 01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,600 Speaker 2: know this. We know this because the film was brought 1125 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,400 Speaker 2: back to the End Pick in Washington, d C. The 1126 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,320 Speaker 2: next night, twenty four hours later. It's brought back there 1127 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,320 Speaker 2: by a different Secret Service agent who says his name 1128 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,880 Speaker 2: is quote unquote Bill Smith, obviously a pseudonym, because we 1129 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,200 Speaker 2: determined there was no Bill Smith working for Secret Service 1130 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,120 Speaker 2: on the review board we determined it. He brings it 1131 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:32,560 Speaker 2: back to Endpick to a different work crew. Dino Brugioni 1132 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:35,360 Speaker 2: and his high level confederates were not called in the 1133 01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:38,040 Speaker 2: next night, a different work crew was called in. Bill 1134 01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:41,360 Speaker 2: Smith tells them, this film just came from Hawkeye Works 1135 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:45,120 Speaker 2: in Rochester, which was the code name for this the 1136 01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:50,360 Speaker 2: classified portion of this film lab the classified portion used 1137 01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,120 Speaker 2: by the CIA. And he lied. Then he said, well, 1138 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,960 Speaker 2: this was donated by a patriotic American who didn't want 1139 01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 2: to make any money, so he donated it to the government, 1140 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,320 Speaker 2: and the original film was developed at Rochester at Hawkeye Works, 1141 01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:05,840 Speaker 2: and we want you guys to make briefing boards of it. 1142 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 2: So he told two big whoppers, two lies. So what 1143 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 2: you've got going on here is that I've concluded with 1144 01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,960 Speaker 2: a very high level of assurance that this film was 1145 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,720 Speaker 2: crudely altered over about a twelve hour period on Sunday, 1146 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:22,840 Speaker 2: November twenty fourth at Hawkeye. 1147 01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,920 Speaker 1: Works to depict what, to depict what. 1148 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the important thing. Primarily to blackout with very 1149 01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,960 Speaker 2: crude blackouts, which are supposed to look like shadows, but 1150 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,080 Speaker 2: they don't. They just look like blackouts like ink. To 1151 01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,720 Speaker 2: black out the huge exit wound in the right rear 1152 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,200 Speaker 2: of the head that was seen at Parkland Hospital. And 1153 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,280 Speaker 2: the reason this had to be done was the people 1154 01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,200 Speaker 2: in charge of this cover up, they already knew that 1155 01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,000 Speaker 2: the photos of the back of JFK's head, few of 1156 01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:50,960 Speaker 2: the few photos of the back of his head from 1157 01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,800 Speaker 2: the autopsy, were going to show no damage to the 1158 01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 2: back of the head. They were going to be doctored, 1159 01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,360 Speaker 2: and they have been. They don't reference. 1160 01:03:58,440 --> 01:03:59,880 Speaker 1: The film is then to be Doctor two. 1161 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,240 Speaker 2: So the film has to be Doctor to match what 1162 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,560 Speaker 2: we're doing with the autopsy photos of the back of 1163 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,800 Speaker 2: the head. So they had to match. So the only 1164 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,160 Speaker 2: reason I'm just telling you right now the end pick 1165 01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,520 Speaker 2: let's cut to the chase. They had the world's best 1166 01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,040 Speaker 2: in larger and they were the place to make the 1167 01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 2: briefing boards and the only reason to send the film 1168 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,200 Speaker 2: to Hawkeye Works in the first place is if you're 1169 01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,919 Speaker 2: going to alter the film. And so the reason you're 1170 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,520 Speaker 2: making a second set of briefing boards on Sunday night 1171 01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,640 Speaker 2: is you're making briefing boards from a sanitized, altered film 1172 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,440 Speaker 2: which blacks out the huge exit wound in the right 1173 01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,800 Speaker 2: rear of the head. And so some people in Hollywood 1174 01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,840 Speaker 2: who are good friends of mine, Sidney Wilkinson and Tom Whitehead, 1175 01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,640 Speaker 2: Sidney purchased a film from the National Archives, a copy, 1176 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,440 Speaker 2: a thirty five millimeter copy, a dupe negative of the 1177 01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,920 Speaker 2: so called original film in the archives. Sidney Wilkinson and 1178 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,880 Speaker 2: her husband, Her husband is Tom Whitehead. They're a team 1179 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,880 Speaker 2: and he's a Hollywood video editor and she's been involved 1180 01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:57,240 Speaker 2: with him and. 1181 01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:58,680 Speaker 1: The guys that are in the dock that I saw. 1182 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,280 Speaker 2: Yes, she buy he was a thirty five millimeters dupe 1183 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,680 Speaker 2: negative of the so called original film in two thousand 1184 01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,800 Speaker 2: and eight because she's intrigued by these rumors that the 1185 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,640 Speaker 2: film may have been altered and she didn't know what 1186 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 2: to think about all these arguments in different books. So 1187 01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,800 Speaker 2: her husband, he has the film scan. Six case scans 1188 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,800 Speaker 2: were state of the art at the time, almost above 1189 01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,760 Speaker 2: state of the art. So when the movie's Ten Commandments 1190 01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,520 Speaker 2: and ben hur were restored, you know they were four K, 1191 01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:26,440 Speaker 2: so six K was even a higher level of resolution 1192 01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,080 Speaker 2: than that. At the time. He used the best scanner 1193 01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,240 Speaker 2: you could get, a six K scanner. Every frame was scanned, 1194 01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:34,840 Speaker 2: and later he made two K scans, which are a 1195 01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,480 Speaker 2: high definition like you're HDTV, So he had high resolution 1196 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:40,960 Speaker 2: scans of the frames, and he discovers these crude black 1197 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,040 Speaker 2: patches over the back of the head. The worst one 1198 01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,160 Speaker 2: is framed three seventeen, the most egregious, but also frames 1199 01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,920 Speaker 2: three twenty one and three twenty three are particularly bad, 1200 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,600 Speaker 2: and so they clearly show artwork animation blacking out the 1201 01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,200 Speaker 2: back of the head. And obviously the artist wanted it 1202 01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,800 Speaker 2: to look like a shadow, but shadows on human hair 1203 01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,960 Speaker 2: don't have straight lines like the state of Ohio. 1204 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:06,720 Speaker 1: And it's not consistent with Connolly either. 1205 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 2: Right, not consistent at all with Connolly in frame three 1206 01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:13,400 Speaker 2: to seventeen. So the evidence is out there. Other researchers 1207 01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,800 Speaker 2: have bought films from the archives, copies of this so 1208 01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,360 Speaker 2: called original film, and they see the same defects, the 1209 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:24,080 Speaker 2: same artifacts in the film. So this was a rough job. 1210 01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:27,560 Speaker 2: The alteration. I figured after they got about three hours 1211 01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:29,680 Speaker 2: to take it to Hawkeye Works, about three hours to 1212 01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,320 Speaker 2: get it back to Washington for more briefing board Sunday night. 1213 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:36,400 Speaker 2: In between those two travel events, they had about twelve 1214 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,840 Speaker 2: hours to alter the film. And we even know how 1215 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:40,920 Speaker 2: they did it now. I mean, there's a textbook. The 1216 01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:46,080 Speaker 2: first textbook ever published on special effects techniques was by 1217 01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,880 Speaker 2: Professor Raymond Fielding The Technique of Special Effects Cinematography in 1218 01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:53,200 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, and he describes the two effects techniques, 1219 01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:57,320 Speaker 2: the only two techniques available in nineteen sixty five, which 1220 01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,760 Speaker 2: is a traveling matt which is very complicated involves many 1221 01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,520 Speaker 2: passes through a camera, and aerial imaging, which is very simple. 1222 01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:07,200 Speaker 2: It involves one pass through a camera. So it's clear 1223 01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,640 Speaker 2: that an aerial optical printer, an aerial optical printer, a 1224 01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:16,480 Speaker 2: modified Oxbury optical printer with an animation stand attached, was 1225 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,840 Speaker 2: used to alter this film. And then you just simply 1226 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:24,600 Speaker 2: you draw whatever artwork you want on a clear acetate cell, 1227 01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,840 Speaker 2: you put it on the animation stand and rephotograph the 1228 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,680 Speaker 2: frame that you've altered in a process camera, and then 1229 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,360 Speaker 2: you create a new film by rephotographing the frames. You 1230 01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:36,960 Speaker 2: want a rephotograph, rephotograph all the frames, and that way 1231 01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,280 Speaker 2: you can optically edit the film and take out things 1232 01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:40,880 Speaker 2: you don't want to be in the film, like the 1233 01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,000 Speaker 2: exe debris traveling to the left rear in Dailly Plaza. 1234 01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 2: You don't see that in the film. There were plenty 1235 01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,240 Speaker 2: of people that saw it that day, and Sappruter's partner Schwartz, 1236 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,880 Speaker 2: saw it in the film. He watched that film copy 1237 01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:57,480 Speaker 2: that they retained fifteen times that weekend and he saw 1238 01:07:57,560 --> 01:07:59,120 Speaker 2: debris traveling to the well. 1239 01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,200 Speaker 1: They also talk about how the cloud, the red or 1240 01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:07,320 Speaker 1: pinkish cloud of mist, the atomized bone, brain fluid, all 1241 01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,800 Speaker 1: this crap blood that comes shooting out of his skull 1242 01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,320 Speaker 1: in the supprudor that we know doesn't match what happened 1243 01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:18,280 Speaker 1: because it's all confined to a certain area. Whereas eyewitnesses 1244 01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:22,200 Speaker 1: have testified who were there on the site, not examining 1245 01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:26,759 Speaker 1: films of testify there was a corona covering his entire 1246 01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:28,599 Speaker 1: circumference of his head. 1247 01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,519 Speaker 2: That's right. Especially the Willis family, they've been interviewed on film. 1248 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen it. They just testify to the 1249 01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,800 Speaker 2: red corona and the large cloud of debris traveling up 1250 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,760 Speaker 2: and back. And then the other person who saw a 1251 01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,560 Speaker 2: very different pattern of debris that we don't see in 1252 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,880 Speaker 2: the film today was Dino Brigioni, who did the first 1253 01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 2: briefing board event, and he saw a massive verticalsure, a 1254 01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,280 Speaker 2: vertical head explosion that went three or four feet into 1255 01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,639 Speaker 2: the air, which is not in the film today. 1256 01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,559 Speaker 1: Let me see this as we were running out of time. 1257 01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that was always so disturbing to 1258 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:08,080 Speaker 1: me and shocking to me was this ultimately, I mean, 1259 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:12,760 Speaker 1: if your government black ops people that are doing this 1260 01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,400 Speaker 1: kind of thing, how do you get everybody to shut up? 1261 01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:19,280 Speaker 1: How do you get hundreds of people involved in some 1262 01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,200 Speaker 1: small or not so small component of this, What do 1263 01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:26,919 Speaker 1: you tell them? This has always been the searing mystery 1264 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:27,240 Speaker 1: to me. 1265 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,479 Speaker 2: There's an answer to that. One is to compartmentalize the 1266 01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,880 Speaker 2: different audiences so they don't even talk to each other. 1267 01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:37,360 Speaker 2: Of course, So that's what happened with a multiple cast assassination. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1268 01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,920 Speaker 2: they didn't. There was a compartmentalized operation, this cast at 1269 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,639 Speaker 2: shell Game, so they didn't even become aware of each 1270 01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:48,960 Speaker 2: other until the late seventies, after the Congress. The Department 1271 01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,840 Speaker 2: of Defense lifted the gag order at the request of 1272 01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:56,800 Speaker 2: the HSCA, but the main technique used was intimidation and fear. 1273 01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:01,479 Speaker 2: So all the Navy personnel involved in the autopsy had 1274 01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:03,960 Speaker 2: to sign what we call a letter of silence. That's 1275 01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,000 Speaker 2: what we call They were threats that you will be 1276 01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,439 Speaker 2: court martialed. If you even discuss the events that you 1277 01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,639 Speaker 2: witnessed at the autopsy, you will be court martialed. 1278 01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,400 Speaker 1: So the other thing I was told is that people 1279 01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,960 Speaker 1: introduced was that if you tell the truth of what 1280 01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:19,320 Speaker 1: you're experiencing here. They didn't tell this to everybody, they 1281 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,040 Speaker 1: didn't have to, just the fear alone that you're going 1282 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:25,679 Speaker 1: to be have some kind of consequences, few legally or otherwise. 1283 01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:27,720 Speaker 1: But the idea that they told some of the more 1284 01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:32,720 Speaker 1: significant players that the Russians did this, all right, and 1285 01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,920 Speaker 1: if you say anything, we need to make sure that 1286 01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:40,840 Speaker 1: everything is such that it's a single guy who's alone nut, 1287 01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:42,800 Speaker 1: because if you say it's a conspiracy, it's more than 1288 01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:44,920 Speaker 1: one person. It's the Russians and we're gonna have World 1289 01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,120 Speaker 1: War three? Do you want World War III? Do you 1290 01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:52,080 Speaker 1: want the atomic bomb? Death? Using the atomic bomb? Reference 1291 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:54,960 Speaker 1: from back then. Do you want the atom bomb death 1292 01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,240 Speaker 1: of forty million Americans in a single day to be 1293 01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:02,200 Speaker 1: on your shoulders, your mouth shut because the Russians did 1294 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:02,960 Speaker 1: this to Kennedy. 1295 01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:08,800 Speaker 2: That's exactly I believe firmly I've concluded. That's exactly what 1296 01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,599 Speaker 2: the autopsy pathologist, Humes and Boswell were told. Is that 1297 01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,960 Speaker 2: we know there was a conspiracy in Dallas. We know 1298 01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:18,720 Speaker 2: there was a crossfire, and they told these doctors the 1299 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,600 Speaker 2: Communists did it. We know they did it. And so 1300 01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,559 Speaker 2: it's your job to remove evidence and not report any 1301 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,920 Speaker 2: shots from the front when at the autopsy you're only 1302 01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:30,080 Speaker 2: going to report shots from behind loan government and so yeah, 1303 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:32,320 Speaker 2: and so this is what would have been used on 1304 01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:37,920 Speaker 2: others later who maybe expressed discomfiture or who wanted to 1305 01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:41,400 Speaker 2: speak out, is that no, this is on patriotic You're 1306 01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,320 Speaker 2: you're endangering the country. We could have forty million deaths. 1307 01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:47,240 Speaker 2: That's what Lyndon Johnson told people when he got people 1308 01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:49,120 Speaker 2: to sit on the Warrant Commission who didn't want to. 1309 01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,120 Speaker 2: So all I can all I want to lead with 1310 01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,760 Speaker 2: your audience is the final conclusion today that I have 1311 01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:57,360 Speaker 2: with great certainty after talking to a lot of medical 1312 01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:01,080 Speaker 2: experts is that there was one head shot from behind, 1313 01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,040 Speaker 2: but it was not from the book depository. It was 1314 01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:07,280 Speaker 2: from down low, almost horizontal, probably from the Dalte's building. 1315 01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,280 Speaker 2: There were two head shots from the front Alex. Two 1316 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,000 Speaker 2: from the front. One entered the right temple just right 1317 01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 2: in front of the ear, in the hair, right in 1318 01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,320 Speaker 2: front of the ear, where nobody at Parkland saw the 1319 01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,280 Speaker 2: entry wound. And the other shot from the front was 1320 01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:23,720 Speaker 2: very high in the forehead above the corner of the 1321 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,280 Speaker 2: right eye, very high in the forehead, and that would 1322 01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,000 Speaker 2: have been hidden by the President's bangs at Parkland had 1323 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,599 Speaker 2: long hair in the front, so they didn't see that. 1324 01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:33,760 Speaker 2: So all they saw was a big exit wound in 1325 01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,120 Speaker 2: the back. But there were two head shots from the front, 1326 01:12:37,760 --> 01:12:41,800 Speaker 2: one from behind. That means conspiracy period. And this evidence 1327 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:46,320 Speaker 2: is embedded in the Skullx rays. So I've got a 1328 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,680 Speaker 2: YouTube movie coming out in a month or two. I've 1329 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,680 Speaker 2: already recorded the thing. It's in post production now, but 1330 01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,920 Speaker 2: explaining the Skullex rays and how to interpret them, and 1331 01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:58,160 Speaker 2: all these great geniuses who examined these for years were 1332 01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:01,439 Speaker 2: obviously not willing to tell the whole truth. They were 1333 01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:03,640 Speaker 2: hiding the other half of the story, which is we 1334 01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:06,320 Speaker 2: also had two shots from the front. The evidence in 1335 01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,840 Speaker 2: the skulls rays of two entry wounds in the front, 1336 01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,120 Speaker 2: one high in the forehead and one just close to 1337 01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,960 Speaker 2: the right ear, just barely above the right ear, is 1338 01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:18,360 Speaker 2: as obvious as the news on your face. And for 1339 01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:22,000 Speaker 2: the Clark panel in nineteen sixty eight and for the 1340 01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:26,799 Speaker 2: House Select Committee forensic panel to not identify these means 1341 01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:29,880 Speaker 2: that it was they were willfully blind. 1342 01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:31,760 Speaker 1: And we didn't even talk them. By the way, how 1343 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:34,400 Speaker 1: the frames that they took out with the car slowed down. 1344 01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:36,759 Speaker 1: Do you believe we remove those images as well? 1345 01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,720 Speaker 2: I believe that a very brief car stop was removed, 1346 01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:44,280 Speaker 2: and there were too many witnesses to it. And all 1347 01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,920 Speaker 2: the witnesses to it were the people close to the car. 1348 01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:50,880 Speaker 2: I mean they should know. The four motorcycle cops to 1349 01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,400 Speaker 2: the left and right rear of the car said the 1350 01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:55,599 Speaker 2: car stopped briefly. The witnesses to the left and right 1351 01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,559 Speaker 2: of the car said it stopped briefly, and a lot 1352 01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:00,679 Speaker 2: of other people did. And so I think the pruter 1353 01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:04,720 Speaker 2: actually filmed the movie at three times the normal frame rate. 1354 01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:07,559 Speaker 2: He had a switch he could operate on his camera 1355 01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:10,320 Speaker 2: called slow motion, which meant it instead of filming at 1356 01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:12,880 Speaker 2: sixteen frames per second, he could film at forty eight 1357 01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:14,559 Speaker 2: frames per second and all he had to do is 1358 01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,400 Speaker 2: push down on the switch. And I think that if 1359 01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:21,040 Speaker 2: he filmed this movie with three times the normal frames, 1360 01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,519 Speaker 2: it would have been easy to remove a brief car 1361 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,760 Speaker 2: stop without a jump cut, and which is what you 1362 01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,000 Speaker 2: have in the film. You don't see a massive jump cut, 1363 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,439 Speaker 2: but you do see the car slowing a little bit, 1364 01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:33,600 Speaker 2: and they had to. And I think that's how you 1365 01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,879 Speaker 2: can remove EXITD debris frames, remove the EXITD debris frames 1366 01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,680 Speaker 2: which indicate shots came from the front, and remove this 1367 01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,640 Speaker 2: brief car stop which probably contained the car stopping and 1368 01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,080 Speaker 2: evidence of different head hits, you know, happening at a 1369 01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,800 Speaker 2: different time. Remove all that without it showing up as 1370 01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:52,800 Speaker 2: a jump cut, because he really filmed the event, I 1371 01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:55,240 Speaker 2: think at forty eight frames per second, not sixteen. 1372 01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:58,960 Speaker 1: You are a person who's made the pursuit of the 1373 01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:01,960 Speaker 1: truth of this matter such an important part of your life, 1374 01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:05,200 Speaker 1: and you've had such great success with it. Kennedy's assassination 1375 01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:07,320 Speaker 1: in sixty three was the beginning of the end for 1376 01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:10,160 Speaker 1: this country. It was my great pleasure to speak with you. 1377 01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful to hear and thank you, sir, thank you, 1378 01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:20,360 Speaker 1: thank you very much. My thanks to Douglas Horn. This 1379 01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:24,839 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoban. 1380 01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:29,360 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 1381 01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:33,960 Speaker 1: Daniel Gingrich. Here's the Thing is recorded at CDM Studios 1382 01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,080 Speaker 1: in New York. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is 1383 01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:57,400 Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Radio