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Speaker 1: Hey, discos, need a little more Disgraceland in your life,

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Speaker 1: just to touch to get you through. Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 1: This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Disgraceland, the after Party. Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode,

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Speaker 1: a little thing we'd like to call the after Party.

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Speaker 1: This is the show after the show, the party after

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Speaker 1: the party.

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Speaker 2: The bridge to get you from one full ever. All right, guys,

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Speaker 2: this is an extra special after party bonus episode because

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Speaker 2: I was able to sit down as a guest with

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Speaker 2: two of my favorite podcasters, the incredibly smart, funny and

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Speaker 2: talented women from one of the biggest true crime shows

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Speaker 2: on the planet, the Red Handed Podcast. These guys just

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Speaker 2: won the Listener's Choice Award at the British Podcast Awards

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Speaker 2: for the third straight year, and we spent our time

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Speaker 2: talking about the murder of Marvin gay which is something

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Speaker 2: that I know you guys will be interested in because,

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Speaker 2: as you know, we released an episode on Marvin Gaye

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Speaker 2: sometime back, and we'll be re releasing it into the

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Speaker 2: feed after this Red Handed Conversation drops. Gonna be making

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Speaker 2: a habit of this, finding ways to resurface archive episodes,

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Speaker 2: as we've been doing, but with a little more intention

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Speaker 2: when we have to.

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Speaker 3: Hit your feeds. You're gonna be hitting your feed every Friday.

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Speaker 3: But more on that later. All right, for now, I

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Speaker 3: give you me the murder of Marvin Gay in the

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Speaker 3: Red Handed Podcast, a podcast you guys are going to

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Speaker 3: be sure to go follow as soon as this episode ends.

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Speaker 3: All right, thanks, guys, let's do it.

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Speaker 4: I'm Hannah, I'm Ruti, and welcome to red Handed, but

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Speaker 4: no ordinary red Handed, very extra special, very exciting red Handed, very.

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Speaker 5: Musical red how very musical red Hand, A musical murdery

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Speaker 5: red Hand.

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Speaker 4: And we have the absolute pleasure of welcoming Jake Brennan

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Speaker 4: from I read just this very morning on the interwebs,

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Speaker 4: host of the most downloaded podcast of all time, Disgracelands.

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Speaker 5: So podcast Royalty, Jake, talk to the people, don't caveat.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Hey, hey, I'm so happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Have that in London though I'm here in the States.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I do just you know, I

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Speaker 1: hate to be an asshole right out of the gate,

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Speaker 1: but quick correction, most downloaded music podcast.

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Speaker 5: There we go. That is a big win. Still, though

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Speaker 5: there's a lot of music podcasts out there. So congratulations

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Speaker 5: big one.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for the people who are listening who for

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Speaker 5: some reason have not heard of Disgraceland. Please can you

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Speaker 5: tell them who you are, what you guys do, tell

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Speaker 5: us a little bit, sure.

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Speaker 1: Disgraceland is very simply a music and true crime podcast,

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Speaker 1: So everything we do has a true crime angle to it.

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Speaker 1: We tell the stories of musicians and either the crimes

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Speaker 1: that they have themselves committed or been accused of committing,

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Speaker 1: or just the insane things that have happened to them.

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Speaker 1: So it's everything from you know, Cardi b assaulting somebody

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Speaker 1: in a club, to Jerry Lee Lewis potentially getting away

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Speaker 1: with murdering his wife to the assassination of John Lennon

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Speaker 1: to Little Peep overdosing Mac Miller. We're all over the place.

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Speaker 1: We cover every single genre and yeah, it's just music

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Speaker 1: and true crime. That's the easiest way to say it.

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Speaker 5: Nice Well, we are very excited to have you here

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Speaker 5: and listeners. You guys know, we don't do this very often.

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Speaker 5: We haven't done very many collapse on red Handed, but

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Speaker 5: we thought, you know what, we're getting into the end

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Speaker 5: of the year this month. You guys are getting a

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Speaker 5: two parter on Lynnette Dawson and a two parts probably

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Speaker 5: on Israel Keys, So there is a lot there is

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Speaker 5: a lot of like just hardcore true crime coming your way.

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Speaker 5: So we're not stepping away from it today, don't worry.

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Speaker 5: Like I said, very murdery today. But we thought we

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Speaker 5: would try something a bit different and invite our new

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Speaker 5: friend Jake onto the show. And I think it is

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Speaker 5: quite a nice story how this happened, isn't it, Because

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Speaker 5: I believe it all stemmed off the back of an

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Speaker 5: Instagram comment.

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Speaker 2: It did.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, we just so we did Brenda Spencer, who's obviously

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Speaker 4: the inspiration of BoomTime routside down on Monday, mm hmm.

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Speaker 4: And then I like to think it was Jake, It

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Speaker 4: might have been someone else apart from Disgraceland comments and

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Speaker 4: being like we should clab on the music side of this,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, sick, yes, but we'd obviously already

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Speaker 4: done Brenda Spencer we have so out of that sprang

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Speaker 4: a conversation and then we landed on the case so

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Speaker 4: that we're going to do now.

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Speaker 5: And I'm very excited. I did not know what happened

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Speaker 5: to the person in this story happened to the person

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Speaker 5: in this story.

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Speaker 4: I think we can say his name, it's in the

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Speaker 4: title Marvin Kay.

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Speaker 5: I did not know what happened to Marvin Gay. Happened

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Speaker 5: to Marvin Gay. So I'm very excited to get started.

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Speaker 5: And also, like Jake said, he couldn't be here in

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Speaker 5: London today, he is in the state. He is actually

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Speaker 5: my moving buddy because we're both moving houses tomorrow. So

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Speaker 5: there's a lot of boxes and a lot of moving

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Speaker 5: around going on at the moment. But Jake has promised

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Speaker 5: that he's going to try and bring up the topic

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Speaker 5: of panders and if he does, the next time we

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Speaker 5: do meet, I will owe him one guinness. So let's

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Speaker 5: see what we can do. People.

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Speaker 4: It's the same color as pandas it is.

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Speaker 1: Good one yes.

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Speaker 4: Me down right?

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Speaker 5: Okay?

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Speaker 4: I think then, with introductions out the way, should get going.

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Speaker 4: Let's do it all right, everyone ready? Jake? Ready?

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Speaker 2: What Rack?

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Speaker 1: I'm ready?

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 4: This is the story of two Marvin Gays. On the

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Speaker 4: face of it's the story of two men, Marvin Pence

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Speaker 4: Gay Senior and Marvin Pence Gay Junior. One a cross

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Speaker 4: dressing Pentecostal preacher who ruled with an iron fist and

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Speaker 4: the other a multi award winning voice of a generation.

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Speaker 5: That's quite a mouthful, that's quite a sentence.

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Speaker 4: Well I crossed it, so thank you very much. But

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Speaker 4: also the chart topping Motown legend was nowhere near perfect.

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Speaker 4: Behind the charming soul singer with the golden voice was

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Speaker 4: a controlling, self sabotaging, unpredictable wreck, and this fight between

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Speaker 4: the two sides of himself as well as the destructive

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Speaker 4: force that was his father, stalked Marvin gay throughout his career,

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Speaker 4: through number one albums, multiple Grammys, and critical acclaim. He

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Speaker 4: fled his demons and the ghost of his father's abuse

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Speaker 4: to Hawaii, Belgium, and deep into the Santa Monica Mountains,

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Speaker 4: where he held a shaking knife to his girlfriend's throat,

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Speaker 4: and eventually, just after a whirl Win tour, he returned

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Speaker 4: to his parents' house and died by his father's hand.

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Speaker 4: This is the story of one of the most notorious

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Speaker 4: murders in musical history.

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Speaker 5: The first Marvin Gaye with no E was born on

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Speaker 5: a Kentucky form form form.

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Speaker 2: Where am I?

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Speaker 1: He sounds like you're from Boston farm?

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Speaker 5: Did you do that for me? Because I'm from Did

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Speaker 5: I do forarm? Did I do farm? He was He

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Speaker 5: was born on a Kentucky farm in October nineteen fourteen,

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Speaker 5: and he was actually one of thirteen children.

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Speaker 4: It's too many.

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Speaker 5: That is a lot of children.

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Speaker 4: Too many am I been in?

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Speaker 5: And unfortunately for Marvin gay Senior, this giant family was vicious.

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Speaker 5: He grew up in a storm of fights, which occasionally

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Speaker 5: escalated into serious violence and sometimes even a bullet. One afternoon,

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Speaker 5: Marvin recalls his father beating his mother until blood poured

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Speaker 5: out of her face. Another night, his father shot his mother,

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Speaker 5: but said it was just a warning. It's a hell

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Speaker 5: of a warning now, Marvin Gaycinia's mother survived, but the

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Speaker 5: atmosphere scarred the young Marvin and taught him the meaning

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Speaker 5: of violence as power. When he was young, his mother

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Speaker 5: moved the family to a new church. And if you

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Speaker 5: thought what you had to say, Hannah was a mouth

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Speaker 5: for let me tell you the name of this church.

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Speaker 5: Because this church was called the House of God, the

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Speaker 5: Holy Church of the Living God, the Pillar and the

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Speaker 5: ground of the Truth, the house of prayer for all people.

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Speaker 4: Put the thesaurus down.

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Speaker 5: They were just like we got to get everybody bums

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Speaker 5: on pews.

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Speaker 1: What do we call it?

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Speaker 4: But just for fun, they called it the House of

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Speaker 4: God for short. And the House of God was a

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Speaker 4: pretty interesting mix. It combined Pentecostal Christianity with Orthodox Judaism,

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Speaker 4: and that meant no Christmas and no Easter neither.

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Speaker 5: Oh boo, I know the worst of everything.

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Speaker 4: Who were we talking to you the other day? Who

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Speaker 4: was saying that he knew loads of Jehovah's witnesses and

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Speaker 4: it was mainly people who just like didn't want to

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Speaker 4: pay for Christmas.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was calm, my videographier. Yeah, So yesterday when

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Speaker 5: we went on our ghost ton, our videographer was saying

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Speaker 5: where he grew up, there were a lot of Jehovah's witnesses.

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Speaker 5: But he was like, but it was mainly just the

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Speaker 5: dads who didn't have jobs, and they were like, no Christmas,

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Speaker 5: we don't do Christmas.

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Speaker 1: We don't do that.

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Speaker 5: It's very cheap when you don't celebrate anything as a dad.

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Speaker 1: I can't get behind that. I just can't do it. Christmas.

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Speaker 1: Is it's worth the hassle? I think unless you're Marvin

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Speaker 1: Gaye that it's definitely not worth it.

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Speaker 4: No, you're right, spoilers, so it gets even better. No Christmas,

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Speaker 4: no Easter, and a strict patriarchal structure. Women and girls

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Speaker 4: were subservient, dressed all in with embroidered blue skull caps.

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Speaker 4: They didn't eat shellfish or pork, and they strictly kept

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Speaker 4: the Sabbath. Every Friday night at sundown, members down tools.

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Speaker 4: From then until Sunday morning. Everything that wasn't praying and

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Speaker 4: praising God was forbidden.

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Speaker 5: What do you do then, just pray?

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Speaker 4: Well, hit each other apparently.

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Speaker 5: No pray, and try not to commit outright murder?

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Speaker 2: Got it?

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Speaker 4: When the first Marvin Gaye became a minister, he was

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Speaker 4: totalitarian in the way he enforced his listening of strict rules,

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Speaker 4: and when he came to have a family of his

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Speaker 4: very own, he was no different. He moved the family

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Speaker 4: to Washington, d c. And used violent discipline in the

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Speaker 4: pursuit of what he saw as the perfect godly family,

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Speaker 4: and there were no vague threats during those years. He'd

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Speaker 4: even tell his children straight, I brought you into this

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Speaker 4: world and I can take you out.

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Speaker 5: What is the scariest thing either of your parents have

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Speaker 5: ever said to you? Growing up?

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Speaker 1: You're going to be a podcaster.

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Speaker 5: I mean, mine was probably quite similar to what Marvin

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Speaker 5: gay heard.

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Speaker 4: I'll put you through that second walk.

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Speaker 5: Mine was an a minus. You get in here, don't come.

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Speaker 4: Back down until you're a doctor.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, don't come back down until you're a doctor.

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Speaker 5: I'm a podcaster through His dad.

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Speaker 4: Is slimly clinging onto the hope that she will one

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Speaker 4: day retrained to be a doctor.

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Speaker 5: The person who can't look at blood.

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Speaker 4: And Marvin Gaye Senior was by far the harshest with

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Speaker 4: his second child, Marvin Pencegate Junior. Marvin Junior's mum, Alberta,

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Speaker 4: would later say, my husband never wanted Marvin and he

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Speaker 4: never liked him. For some reason. He didn't love Marvin,

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Speaker 4: and what's worse, he didn't want me to love him either.

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Speaker 5: Rough stuff that is so rough. That is so rough.

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Speaker 5: But that's quite like I don't want to say common

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Speaker 5: thing because it's not common, but that is quite an

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Speaker 5: art type like the father who then has children and

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Speaker 5: then is resentful of the mother giving attention to that child,

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Speaker 5: and then the resentment that that breeds turns into abuse

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Speaker 5: towards that child, which is just so bizarre because it

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Speaker 5: like overrides the natural biological urge that parents are meant

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Speaker 5: to have to protect and prioritize their children. But we

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Speaker 5: do see it. We see a lot of this in

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Speaker 5: true crime.

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Speaker 4: It's not a Christian that is it.

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Speaker 5: No, none of what he does is very Christian. So

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Speaker 5: Marvin Gay Junior grew up in what was known then

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Speaker 5: as Simple City.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty good.

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Speaker 5: What's happening? My theory joke is is it just that America,

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Speaker 5: the US, I should say, is so big that you

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Speaker 5: guys are just like, there's too many things to name.

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Speaker 5: Name it whatever the hell you like? Simple City? Sure,

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Speaker 5: what the hell?

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Speaker 1: I think you're hitting the nail right on the head.

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Speaker 1: I think this was named with extreme laziness and not

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Speaker 1: a hint of irony.

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Speaker 5: No, so we're not missing any irony. Okay, got it.

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Speaker 5: What is the best city name you've come across though

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Speaker 5: in your years? That Disgraceland?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, I mean, I mean, just not

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Speaker 1: to be totally basic about it, but you know they

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Speaker 1: called you know, obviously Elvis is his home. It's not

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Speaker 1: a city, but his estate was Graceland. And Jerry Lee

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Speaker 1: Lewis was such the opposite of Elvis. He was such

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Speaker 1: a hell raiser in a maniac that the locals called

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Speaker 1: where he lived Disgraceland, which obviously that's why we named

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Speaker 1: the show that.

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Speaker 5: I see. I thought you were just punning off Elvis's

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Speaker 5: But now it makes sense. Interesting, Simple City is up

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Speaker 5: there for me. But also it will be very hard

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Speaker 5: to top Truth and Consequences. Truth or Consequences?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, where is that from? Actually i've heard.

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Speaker 4: That New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: There it is.

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Speaker 5: It's David Parker. Ray abducted all those women, kept them

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Speaker 5: in his weird like sex cabin, tied them up, tortured them, etc.

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Speaker 2: Etc.

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Speaker 5: Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. They named themselves that because

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Speaker 5: they wanted to win a prize from a local radio show.

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Speaker 5: It was the first town that changed its name to

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Speaker 5: Truth or Consequence. Is won the radio show and that's

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Speaker 5: why they did it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, amazing. It sounds like it's out of a Coen

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Speaker 1: Brothers film or something like that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I mean it might as well be. I think

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Speaker 4: about fifteen people living there now.

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Speaker 5: So back to Simple City where Marvin Gay Junior is

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Speaker 5: growing up. He later called it a slum of Washington, DC.

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Speaker 5: So Simple City, it's not like it's a nice place

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Speaker 5: to live. It's a slum okay. They couldn't even bothered

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Speaker 5: to name, and they just called a simple city. And

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Speaker 5: from a young age, Marvin gay Junior grew to expect

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Speaker 5: the belt for any minor transgression, real or imagined against

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Speaker 5: his father. It was a campaign of fear. The older

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Speaker 5: Marvin seemed to take pleasure in. Marvin Jr. Remembered being

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Speaker 5: told that he would be whipped, only to be made

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Speaker 5: to wait in an adjoining room for over an hour

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Speaker 5: for his punishment. So Dad's really like not just the

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Speaker 5: physical torture, it's also the psychological abuse. Domestic terrorism is

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Speaker 5: what we're seeing here. And all the while that Marvin

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Speaker 5: Gaye Junior was waiting in the other room for his beating,

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Speaker 5: his father would stand in the other room shaking the

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Speaker 5: belt buckle. He later told his biographer David Ritz and

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Speaker 5: this is a quote, the only way to short circuit

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Speaker 5: the agony was to provoke him even more and just

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Speaker 5: get the beating over with. That is so sad. Basically,

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Speaker 5: he's like, I wanted to just forgo the psychological torture,

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Speaker 5: so I would provoke my father until he just beat

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Speaker 5: me and got it done with. So, yes, we can

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Speaker 5: really see a pattern starting to emerge here. Basically, it

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Speaker 5: was like Marvin Junior said, it was like to live

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Speaker 5: with his father quote, it was like living with a

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Speaker 5: very peculiar, changeable, cruel and all powerful king narcissist.

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Speaker 4: Hmmm, And the word peculiar doesn't just refer to Marvin

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Speaker 4: Gaye Senior's unusually savage parenting. Marvin Senior was not like

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Speaker 4: the other dads in Simple City. He taught her around

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Speaker 4: the house in his wife's heels, her best dresses, and

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Speaker 4: her wigs, and sooner or later the neighborhood kids saw

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Speaker 4: him do that through the window and let Marvin Junior

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Speaker 4: have it, and eventually it wasn't a secret anymore. Marvin

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Speaker 4: Senior was a flamboyant, unashamedly cross dressing man of God,

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Speaker 4: and that didn't sit right with the Washingtonians of the

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Speaker 4: forties and fifties. The shame came from all sides for

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Speaker 4: Marvin Jr. From his family's esoteric religious customs to his

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Speaker 4: father's quirks and even being teased as a sissy for

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Speaker 4: his own shyness. And for Marvin Junor, his first suicidal

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Speaker 4: thoughts hit him in his early teens. His church was

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Speaker 4: a strict and unforgiving place, and only activities that served

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Speaker 4: to praise the Lord were allowed. But luckily for Marvin Junior,

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Speaker 4: that included music. And we're going to pass over to you, Jake,

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Speaker 4: as our music expert. Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 4: about the church's influence on popular music in the forties

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Speaker 4: and fifties.

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Speaker 1: Hard to overstate just how influential gospel music, the music

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Speaker 1: that came out of the church was on black culture

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Speaker 1: in the forties, in the fifties, and just I know

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Speaker 1: it's obvious, but I got to say it. When I

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Speaker 1: refer to the church here, I'm referring to sort of

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Speaker 1: the you know, universal Christian Black church in America the

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Speaker 1: forties and the fifties Baptist Church. I'm not referring to

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Speaker 1: whatever crazy nutty church Marvin Gay's father was preaching out

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Speaker 1: that we talked about earlier. Yeah, it kind of goes

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Speaker 1: without saying, but worth pointing out just massively influential gospel

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Speaker 1: music is, of course, the Sunday morning music, which is

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Speaker 1: different in subject matter lyrically from the Saturday night music

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Speaker 1: of blues and R and B that's happening in the clubs,

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Speaker 1: but the same people are listening to gospel music in

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Speaker 1: church on Sundays, and you have, as it pertains to

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gay, you have these artists come out of the

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Speaker 1: gospel church in the fifties, you have Sam Cook come

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Speaker 1: out in the sixties, Ray Charles, and when they come

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Speaker 1: out of gospel they meld the actual mutis musick with

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Speaker 1: secular music, with pop music. And the irony here is

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Speaker 1: gospel music has this looseness to it and ironically this

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Speaker 1: sexuality to it that when it was merged with pop

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Speaker 1: music and secular music, it becomes what we now know

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Speaker 1: as soul music. So Marvin Gay is a young kid.

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Speaker 1: He's watching all this happening around him, and in Sam Cook,

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Speaker 1: he sees a model for him to sort of use

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Speaker 1: the church and use gospel music to propel a sort

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Speaker 1: of music career for himself.

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Speaker 5: Wow, that's fascinating. I didn't know at all, but this

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Speaker 5: is just speaking to my own ignorance about this. How

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Speaker 5: many of those incredibly influential artists came from a gospel background.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's real. It's almost an endless list. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have Aretha Franklin, whose father was a major preacher

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Speaker 1: at the time, and then even just a ton of

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Speaker 1: blues musicians who you don't even associate with gospel music,

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Speaker 1: like you know, Muddy Waters or BB King. They all

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Speaker 1: kind of passed through the church at one point and

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Speaker 1: go on to do their thing in secular music. But

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Speaker 1: the real big star is like Sam I mean, Sam

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Speaker 1: Cook was a worldwide phenomenon almost and that was a

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Speaker 1: real template for mar Gay. And thankfully Marvin Gay had

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Speaker 1: this immense talent himself that could match his ambition in

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Speaker 1: the model of Sam Cook that he was seeing.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely And when you think about it, it does make

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Speaker 5: sense because even in the nutty church that Marvin Gay

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Speaker 5: Senior is hanging out in a house of God, service

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Speaker 5: could actually include a whole small orchestra of instruments, saxophones,

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Speaker 5: wailing handclapping organs, and tambourines. So even in a place

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Speaker 5: where there is nothing allowed except the praising of God,

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Speaker 5: the music is there. And that's what is, like you said,

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Speaker 5: Marvin Gay Junior's savior.

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Speaker 4: And that's why there's so many like in early soul

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Speaker 4: and motown specifically, so many super tight harmonies, especially in

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Speaker 4: backing vocals, because all of the backing singers had sung

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Speaker 4: in choirs in church that they knew how to do

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Speaker 4: it already.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, exactly.

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Speaker 5: So at this church, like probably many churches at the time,

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Speaker 5: people would pour into the aisles possessed by spirits sometimes,

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Speaker 5: and Marvin gay Junior was a sense station. He'd learned

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Speaker 5: the piano by ear from the age of five, and

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Speaker 5: his voice blew people away, and for a while even

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Speaker 5: his father was impressed. But by his late teens, Marvin

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Speaker 5: Gaye Junior was singing for money. He was into that

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Speaker 5: secular music. He'd sung what he'd heard on the radio

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Speaker 5: do wop. To Marvin Senior. It was the devil's music. Jake,

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Speaker 5: could you tell us what is do wop? What are

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Speaker 5: we talking about there? I don't know if I'm I

389
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Speaker 5: feel like I kind of know, but tell us I

390
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Speaker 5: feel confident.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, doop of course, just is you know,

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Speaker 1: vocal music, a cappella music that's sprung up from street

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Speaker 1: corners largely, and it's kind of to hip. Back to

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Speaker 1: what Hannah was saying earlier, the sort of tight harmonies

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Speaker 1: from the gospel church influenced doop as well. But I

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Speaker 1: mean's somebody like Marvin Gaye's dad anything that was not

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Speaker 1: strictly gospel music was the devil's music. I mean anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean even like I was reading something the other

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Speaker 1: day that you know, Marvin Gay got in trouble for

400
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Speaker 1: reading I think Charlotte's Web because it was it was

401
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Speaker 1: considered to be a book of the devil, which is

402
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Speaker 1: just insanity. But you know, duop, you can picture, like

403
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Speaker 1: you know, four Italian guys on the street corner in

404
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Speaker 1: Philadelphia with greasy hair, singing together. This is just sort

405
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Speaker 1: of the earlier incarnation of that from the forties and fifties.

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Speaker 5: Perfect. This is great having Jake on. I feel like

407
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Speaker 5: I've done so many more research about any of those music.

408
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 5: I can just be like, Jake, please tell us. But yeah,

409
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Speaker 5: so Marvin Gay Senior absolutely goes without a doubt saying

410
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Speaker 5: he is convinced this is devil music. He is not

411
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Speaker 5: interested in his son doing this at all. But Alberta Gay,

412
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Speaker 5: Marvin Junior's mother, she gave her son permission to follow

413
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Speaker 5: his talent and it was his ticket out. By then,

414
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Speaker 5: the beatings had only increased. Marvin Junior may have been

415
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Speaker 5: taller and stronger than his father, but he never talked back.

416
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Speaker 5: In his own words, quote, I wanted to strike back,

417
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Speaker 5: but where I come from. Even to raise your hand

418
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Speaker 5: to your father is an invitation for him to kill you.

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Speaker 4: And with that neat bit of foreshadowing, firmly in the bank, Jake,

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Speaker 4: we're going to hand over to you, because we are

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Speaker 4: going to skip ahead a bit. Marvin Gate joined and

422
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 4: quit the Air Force, and then he joined a do

423
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 4: what group called the moon Glows, and then moved to Chicago.

424
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Speaker 4: He sung back up for Chuck Berry, and eventually he

425
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Speaker 4: caught the attention of a young producer and one of

426
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Speaker 4: my least favorite men of all time, Barry Gordy, who

427
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 4: had just founded Motown Records. And I have a particularly

428
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 4: strong opinion on him because before I did Red Handed

429
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Speaker 4: as my job, I worked on Motown the music Ah

430
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Speaker 4: and Motown the Musical is a very so dream Girls

431
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 4: is a very thinly veiled story of Berry Gordy and

432
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Speaker 4: Diana Ross and the Supremes. Right, all of the names

433
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Speaker 4: are changed, but the story is the same. Motown is

434
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Speaker 4: the rebuttal right so like it is. It shows Berry

435
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 4: Gordy as this like like young up and coming kid

436
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 4: who just like started from nowhere. His parents lent him

437
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 4: two hundred thousand dollars so he could start the label

438
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 4: like he was not like and he he met Diana

439
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 4: Ross when she was fourteen, like Pieter, shit fucking awful guy.

440
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 5: So it took me.

441
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 4: When I quit, finally quit that job, I would like

442
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 4: be on road trips with my friends and some Motown

443
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 4: will come on. I'll be like, please turn this offen

444
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 4: because my desk was directly above the stage, so I

445
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 4: would like hear like, oh, it's the contours, it's lunchtime.

446
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 5: How many shows were there are? Day two?

447
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 1: Two?

448
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 5: So you had to listen to Motown the musical twice

449
00:22:59,080 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 5: a day every day for.

450
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 4: Once because I went home for okay, yeah, okay, and

451
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 4: then obviously every time, like my mum was in town,

452
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 4: I want to go and see it, and I'm okay,

453
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 4: I'll just sit through it again. So I'm going to

454
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 4: hand over to you for possibly a more positive spin.

455
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 5: On not just shop but how much I hate Barry Gordy.

456
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was the dream Girls. Now I'm giving

457
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: the Motown rebuttal is that what.

458
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 5: We do exactly exactly?

459
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:23,239
Speaker 2: All right?

460
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: Okay, with all that context of what we now know

461
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: about Barry Gordy, we do need to kind of travel

462
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: back in time to where we're at. We're talking about

463
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay, Visa v. Berry Gordy. Fast forward from the

464
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: influence of the church in the nineteen forties to the

465
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties to early nineteen sixties and the secular music

466
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: that was made by Motown Records. And it's really hard

467
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 1: to describe now just how influential Motown was on popular culture.

468
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: It was the first entity of black music making that

469
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: crossed over in a very significant way and sold records

470
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: on mass to not just black kids, but to white kids.

471
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: And that was a huge deal at the time. We

472
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: take it for granted now because everything is so integrated,

473
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: but back then, obviously it wasn't. And even the charts

474
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this later were integrated either. And it

475
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: wasn't like they had one or two hits. It's like

476
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: they just crushed it constantly, consistently. And Barry Gordy, for

477
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: all of his flaws, Hannah was a genius on the

478
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: level with some of the great innovators in American history.

479
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 1: I mean, Motown Records is Detroit and Barry Gordy, all

480
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: he had to do was look down the road at

481
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: the Ford Auto Factory and go Okay, there's my template

482
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: on how to make music. And he quite literally took

483
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: the process that they were using to make cars, the

484
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: assembly line process, and used it to make music. He

485
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: had staff writers, staff producers, He had singers that were

486
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: kind of interchangeable, and few of the really good ones

487
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: became icons, like Diana Ross whom you mentioned. So Marvin

488
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: Gay has this influence in Sam Cook early on, and

489
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: he uses that as a template to kind of model himself.

490
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: And with that and with the sort of musical package

491
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: that Marvin Gay and Talent had put together, he could

492
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: not have landed at a better place than Motown to

493
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: launch his career. All caveats and asterisks that Barry Gordy

494
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: was a very bad guy and did a lot of

495
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: shitty things to a lot of people, a lot of artists,

496
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: especially in young women. But I just want to, you know,

497
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: give the proper conduct.

498
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Content context is key. And you know it's

499
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 5: like we've said so many times on the show, you

500
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 5: can be a great person and not be a good person.

501
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 5: A person who makes huge amounts of change and transforms

502
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 5: a city, transforms the whole industry, like you said, completely

503
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 5: takes that huge, incredible step of desegregating the charts, like

504
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 5: we're going to go on to talk about later, Like

505
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 5: you said, I could still be a bad guy, yeah,

506
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 5: behind those doors, but I think the context is super important,

507
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 5: so thank you for that.

508
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 4: Of course, of course, and Marvin gay thrived in this.

509
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 4: He started as a session drummer, playing on tracks for

510
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 4: Smokey Robinson and Stevie Wonder, and then he started adding

511
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 4: piano and then backing vocals, and soon enough he was

512
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 4: writing songs.

513
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 5: So taking AQ from Sam Cook, Marvin Gaye decided to

514
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 5: add an e to the end of his name to

515
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 5: lend himself some gravitas as well as separating himself from

516
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 5: his father and the rumors of homosexuality that still followed him.

517
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 5: And Marvin Gaye Junior had his first hit with Stubborn

518
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 5: kind of Fellow and started to make a name for himself.

519
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 5: A string of hits followed, and he was an immediate

520
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 5: sex symbol. Night after night women were throwing themselves at him.

521
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 5: But one woman stood out, Anna Gordy, sister of Barry Gordy,

522
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 5: and she was actually seventeen years older than Marvin Gaye.

523
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 5: And it would be incorrect of us not to discuss

524
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 5: this next bit, because this is where waiting the second

525
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 5: half of Gay's super edaple life really fires up. There's

526
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 5: a kind of fighting his dad bit that was well underway. He's,

527
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 5: you know, trying not to hit his dad back as

528
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 5: much as he wants to. And now it's kind of

529
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 5: into the shagging his mum season. And it was, like

530
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 5: we said, seventeen years older than Marvin. Nothing wrong with her,

531
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 5: but she was also very forthright and became an all

532
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 5: important voice of reason and discipline in Gay's life, and

533
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 5: he wanted to be with her. Conveniently, she was also

534
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 5: the boss's sister. It was love, there's no doubt about that,

535
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 5: but there was also definitely a transactional element to this

536
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 5: whole situation too, you could rather cynically, and we're going

537
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 5: to look at this as an opportunity away for Gay

538
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 5: to join the dynasty. So we married Anna, and shortly

539
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 5: afterwards he became one of Motown's biggest names.

540
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 4: Back home in DC, infighting had forced the House of

541
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 4: God congregation to split into two. Marvin Senior's crowd was

542
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 4: the smaller half, and he soon found himself preaching in

543
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 4: disused storefronts or at home in his living room, and

544
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 4: after a while he stopped preaching altogether. He worked briefly

545
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: for the Air Force and then the Post Office, but

546
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 4: his refusal to work on the sabbath soon got him

547
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 4: booted out of both of those jobs. Soon he was

548
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 4: doing nothing, and that's pretty much how it stayed for

549
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 4: the rest of his life.

550
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 5: ALBERTA.

551
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 4: Gay meanwhile, was leaving the house at four am to

552
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: take the bus to the next date over to clean

553
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 4: rich people's houses, and.

554
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 5: Soon Marvin gay had a series of hits and wrote

555
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 5: several more for other Motown acts, like Dancing in the

556
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 5: Street for Martha and the Vandellas.

557
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna slip it in here. Yeah, completely not

558
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: Motown related, but Jake, I'm absolutely desperate to get your

559
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 4: opinion on the Mick Jagger David Bowie cover of In

560
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 4: New Street.

561
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that. I knew it,

562
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: and I was about to say something too, because I

563
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: didn't realize until right now that Marvin Gaye wrote that song.

564
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: So I was going to say, we have him to

565
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: blame or thank, depending on your point of view, for that.

566
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: Just it's both horrific and it's also just wonderfully entertaining

567
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: the Mick Jagger David Bowie video for Dancing in the Street.

568
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: So I'm on both sides of that fences.

569
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 4: It's definitely a moment in musical history that I will

570
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 4: never ever forget.

571
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 5: But getting back to our story today, like everything else

572
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 5: in the US, in the fifties, music was sadly segregated.

573
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 5: For the most part, White music would chart in the

574
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 5: top forty and the songs that Black America were listening

575
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 5: to ranked in the separate R and B or blues charts.

576
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 5: For a black artist to cross over into the top

577
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 5: forty took something really special. Jake, We're gonna look to

578
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 5: you again, talk to us a bit about this.

579
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, A lot of this gets credited to and I

580
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: certainly did this earlier, to Barry Gordy and his genius

581
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: and how to produce songs. But a lot of it

582
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: has to do too with just who Marvin Gay was

583
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: and the type of artist that he was where he

584
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: was able to cross over. And we really need to

585
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: illustrate here for the listeners who may not be aware

586
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: just how difficult that was and what it meant to

587
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: do that back in the forties, fifties and sixties, I mean,

588
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: there were different sets of charts, just like there are today,

589
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: and I should say it's still a big deal today.

590
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 1: We just had all these country artists here in America

591
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: who were on the Billboard Hot one hundred, not that

592
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: they hadn't been before, but much was made of that

593
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: because artists typically don't cross over, and the reason is radio.

594
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: So you know, for Marvin Gay to crossover, it means

595
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: that those white radio stations, pop radio stations were playing

596
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: the record, playing the single, I should say, and I

597
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: mean that translates directly into financial gain. It's just a

598
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: much bigger audience. Those stations are so much bigger, they

599
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: have a much wider and further reach. So, you know,

600
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: so it's one thing to cross over. You need a

601
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: special kind of talent that Marvin Gay certainly had. But

602
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: then when you do, the level of success that that's

603
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: going to bring you is going to be much bigger

604
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: than if you were just to be riding on.

605
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 5: The R and B charts. Do you think that Marvin

606
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 5: Gay intentionally set out to be able to do that

607
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 5: or do you think it was just something that came

608
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 5: because he was so talented.

609
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: I think Barry Gordy certainly intended to do that, and

610
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: by extension, Marvin Gay did as well, so bit by bit.

611
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 5: Gay crept up the top forty until the ballad Pride

612
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 5: and Joy made the top ten at number eight. But

613
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 5: as always with Marvin Gay, he could climb high, but

614
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 5: his demons weren't far behind. He'd been smoking weed pretty

615
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 5: much constantly since the Moonflows days, and as his star ascended,

616
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 5: he turned to coke. He never really took to snorting

617
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 5: it though, apparently he just ate it. He just eat coke.

618
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 5: So there you go.

619
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 4: I'm sure it gets the job done.

620
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 5: I mean it thoroughly did, and I don't know, maybe

621
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: it Obviously he has had a very abusive childhood. He's

622
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 5: obviously looking to substances as some sort of crutch. But

623
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 5: it could also have been to do with the fact

624
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 5: that Marvin Kay apparently hated performing, which until we looked

625
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 5: at this episode, I would just never ever have guessed

626
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 5: that to be the case. That he hated performing, And

627
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 5: apparently he could often be found shaking or being sick

628
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 5: backstage before a show, but then with a little powdered

629
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 5: courage in his mouth, he'd blow them away, always finishing

630
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 5: by mopping his brow with a silk handkerchief and then

631
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 5: throwing it into the baying crowd. But by nineteen sixty

632
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 5: nine this duality got serious.

633
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 4: His marriage to Anna was already pretty ugly. They were

634
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: both cheating on the rag and then using those infidelities

635
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 4: to twist the knife. Eventually, Marvin got a gun and

636
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 4: locked himself in an apartment, and he said that he

637
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 4: wouldn't leave until he or whoever dared interrupt him, was dead.

638
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 4: Eventually he was talked down by his father in law,

639
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 4: but these episodes repeated over the next few months. Sometimes

640
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 4: Marvin Gay would disappear for weeks without a word to anyone.

641
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 4: He'd start to threaten his friends and family members at gunpoint,

642
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 4: but all the while, his hits were only getting better.

643
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 4: I heard It through the Grapevine, sold four million copies.

644
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: It was Motown's biggest single so far, and now he

645
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: was going to use his success to go his own way.

646
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 4: When Gay's brother Frankie recounted his stories from Vietnam, the

647
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 4: singer was infuriated and knew that he had to do something,

648
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 4: and that led him to what's going on, Jake, can

649
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: you speak a little bit about just what a seminal

650
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 4: record that.

651
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: Was I can try, Bukowski said, writing about music is

652
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: like dancing about architecture. Very hard. It's very hard to do.

653
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: Somehow we try. We keep trying, though, but with What's

654
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: going on, it's particularly hard. You know, I'm always struck

655
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: by the context of the day is so much different.

656
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: You know, this was this record. I'll start with the

657
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: history of him trying to make it with Barry Gordy.

658
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: Barry Gordy heard the demo or the first recording of

659
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: the song What's going On, and he hated it. He

660
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: quite literally called it the worst recording he had ever heard,

661
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 1: and he refused to put it out, and he didn't

662
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: like anything about it. He didn't like the production, like

663
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: the quote unquote looseness of it, which I find to

664
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: be rich. He didn't. He especially didn't like that it

665
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: was political. That was the main reason he didn't like it.

666
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: But Stevie Wonder loved it. Marvin Gaye played it for

667
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder. A bunch of people around Motown who worked

668
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: at Motown loved it, and it became this big battle

669
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: between Marvin gay who now had all this leverage because,

670
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: as you just mentioned, Hannah, he was on the charts

671
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: and he had success. Whereas before he wouldn't have said

672
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: no or argued with Berry Gordy, here he is arguing

673
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: with him, and there's like something like a seven to

674
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: eight month battle that ensues where Marvin gay refuses to

675
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: work at all for Barry Gordy unless Barry allows him

676
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: to make this record and put it out. And I

677
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: just want to I don't want to. I don't want

678
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: to defend Barry Gordy here. But we're talking about a

679
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: guy who is eating cocaine who's also married to your sister.

680
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: So if anybody has insight into just how fucked up

681
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: Marvin gay was and has the inclination to not believe

682
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: that he can pull off what no other black artist

683
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: has done before, which is have a hit that is political.

684
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: Barry Gordy certainly had had a unique perspective into a

685
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: unique lens into this and perhaps has justified reason for

686
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: not allowing Marvin Gaye to do this. But the music

687
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: should have spoken for itself. The music was, as we know, incredible,

688
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: to the point where I think it was an A

689
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: and R guy who worked for Barry Gordy at Motown

690
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: ended up pressing singles on his own and sending them

691
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: to some radio stations before it was officially released, and

692
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: the radio stations freaked out. They loved it, they played it,

693
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: it becomes this massive hit. And two things about this one.

694
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: The original title was What's going on? Question Mark, and

695
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay insisted, and he had a fight with his

696
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: co writers on this from Motown that it was just no,

697
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: it's not what's going on, question Mark, it's what's going

698
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: on period declarative, because this is a statement of what

699
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: is happening in our cities. This is the culture that

700
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: I grew up in that I am seeing that is

701
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: not changing, that is getting worse, Vietnam, all the social

702
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: unrest of the late sixties. And to speak to the

703
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: significance of this album, quite frankly, there was nothing like it.

704
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: There was no album that had done what it had

705
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: done before. It quite literally gave license, not literally, it

706
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: quite figuratively gave license to black artists to protest on

707
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: the charts, and that had never had been done before.

708
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: We take it for granted now, but it was this

709
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: album that almost didn't get made that opened the floodgates.

710
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 4: So I suppose in the end then it was the

711
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 4: music that spoke for itself. If it was getting secretly

712
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 4: sent to radio stations, I.

713
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 5: Think so, yeah.

714
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: I think some things are just so undeniably great that

715
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:26,919
Speaker 1: you can't put him down.

716
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: And it worked because almost fifty years later, What's Going

717
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 4: On was ranked number one on Rolling Stones's list of

718
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 4: the five hundred greatest albums of all time, So even

719
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 4: Marvin Gay Junior had to admit he was a superstar.

720
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 5: And Marvin Gaye's first la home had been given to

721
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 5: him by Barry Gordy. That didn't really sit right with

722
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 5: the star. He wanted to buy a place for himself,

723
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 5: so after the success of What's Going On, he bought

724
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 5: what his family would later refer to as the Big House.

725
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 5: Marvin soon moved his parents into the mansion and considered

726
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 5: it a fresh start, but his dad, Marvin Senior, as usual,

727
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 5: was not happy. He resented the fact that his sexed

728
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 5: up son's devil music had bought him this house, and

729
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 5: he was still, as the father of an adult man,

730
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 5: jealous of his wife's relationship with their son. So in

731
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 5: a further effort to patch things up, Marvin Junior would

732
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 5: invite both of his parents even to go on tour

733
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 5: with him. But his father always declined, choosing instead to

734
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 5: stay alone in the big house, stewing in his booze

735
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 5: soaked resentment. There was no way he was going to

736
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 5: go on tour and watch all these people love his son,

737
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 5: love and adore his son. That's the hell for him.

738
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 4: And whilst Marvin Jr. Was working on the number one

739
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 4: hornier song ever written, Let's Get It On, he was

740
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 4: introduced to the girl who would become his second wife.

741
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 4: And we say girl and we mean it. Gay would

742
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 4: become obsessed with her, singing every one of his songs

743
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 4: for the rest of his life with her in mind.

744
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 4: Sometimes and this makes me feel uncomfortable, he sometimes would

745
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 4: whisper her name softly in the background of recordings. And

746
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 4: the problem was she was sixteen. Marvin had been working

747
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 4: on Let's Get It On with the singer and songwriter

748
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 4: Ed Townsend, and when Townsend brought his teenage daughter in

749
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 4: to show her around the studio, Marvin Gaye was smitten

750
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 4: with Janis Hunter. Before we move on to pastures new pastures,

751
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 4: new and old and old, young and old and everything

752
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 4: in between, just because we've mentioned Ed Townsend, I have

753
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 4: to ask you how you feel about the Ed Sheeran trial.

754
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: I didn't follow it as closely as you as you

755
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: would think, but I just think in general, all of

756
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: these lawsuits that are being brought are frivolous. For the

757
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: most part. I think music is there's only twelve notes

758
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: a man can play. Boys said, hey, you're going to

759
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: run into these scenarios where there's similarities, and I think

760
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: there's a much easier way to handle this. I think

761
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: Tom Petty and Sam Smith there was some beef there,

762
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: they handled it out of court. It's just like they

763
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: just go for the juggular. Someone like Ed Cheering is

764
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: so popular and so successful that I just think it

765
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: strikes of being too opportunistic.

766
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 4: To me, absolutely, And I think I think if Ed

767
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 4: Townsend hadn't had success with the blood Lines trial, he

768
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 4: would never have gone after Ed Cheering. But I don't

769
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 4: know if you saw, but there Ed Sheeran used to

770
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: do the rounds on like morning talk shows, and he

771
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 4: was like, there's only four chords in music. Tell me

772
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 4: any song and I will play it for you using

773
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,479
Speaker 4: only these four chords. And those were the four cords

774
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 4: they came after him for. And he, I don't even

775
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 4: want to say, got off he rightly was like yeah, vindicated, Yeah, yeah,

776
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: and he said he said during the trial, he was like,

777
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: if I lose this, I'm done. I quit the industry

778
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 4: because it's ridiculous to sue people over courts. It's really interesting,

779
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 4: But I think Edtwnsend will probably give up.

780
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 5: Now.

781
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 4: I mean one would hope, but I do have an

782
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 4: image of just like sitting in his house listening to

783
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 4: every trap on Spotify being like, no.

784
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 5: That's clocks enough, right down, that's good.

785
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 4: But let's get back to Marvin Gaye and where he

786
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 4: is in his life. He's thirty three, he's in a

787
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 4: crumbling marriage to a woman who's seventy teen years older

788
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 4: than him, and now he's obsessed with a girl seventeen

789
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 4: years younger than him. So sorry to anyone who loves

790
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 4: the song, but the vocal line of this is what

791
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 4: a critic said about Let's get it on, unabashed peon

792
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 4: to fucking It was sung directly to a sixteen year

793
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 4: old girl. Well, thank you, Okay, so we can all

794
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 4: feel gross about that for a while.

795
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 5: Just don't think about it. The guy was eating cocaine.

796
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 5: He didn't know what the fuck was going on, because yes,

797
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 5: between eating all his cocaine and having a secret teenage girlfriend.

798
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 5: Gay's paranoia was ramping up, so he ran to the

799
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 5: Santa Monica Mountains to a small house into Panga Canyon,

800
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 5: and in the notes producer briond producer Alex Brand has

801
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 5: written down if that name rings a musical true crime bell,

802
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 5: well done, have a sticker. That's where Charles Manson got

803
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 5: to know the Beach Boys. I didn't know that. All

804
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 5: I thought when I heard Tapanga Canyon was did you

805
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 5: ever watch Boy Meets Girl? Because that was what that

806
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 5: girl's name was.

807
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 4: What Topanga Canyon?

808
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 5: Topanga? Oh, I can't remember her surname. Do you remember

809
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 5: who I mean? No, I'll google it. I'll show you.

810
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: Jake, do you remember I was confused. I thought you

811
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: meant that the girl from Boy Meets Girls named Charles Manson.

812
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 5: Huh oh yeah, So maybe she was named after the

813
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 5: canyon or the Beach Boys. Maybe her parents were big

814
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 5: fans of Charles Manson.

815
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: There you go.

816
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 5: Anyway, So when he went to Pank Canyon, remember he's paranoid,

817
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 5: he's starting to go off. His rocker is Marvin Gaye Junior.

818
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 5: So he gets two ginormous great Danes to ward off intruders,

819
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 5: and he hid his secret girlfriend away from his record label,

820
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 5: from the press, from his parents, and from his wife

821
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 5: because yes, he is still married, and it wasn't a

822
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 5: good look, especially after Janie got pregnant at just seventeen

823
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 5: years old and then lost the baby, and that pregnancy,

824
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 5: by the way, was no accident. Janis has since written quote,

825
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 5: we made love at every opportunity, night and day. We

826
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 5: never used birth control. It was clear that Marvin wanted

827
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 5: me pregnant, and I did nothing to prevent that. His possessiveness, jealousy,

828
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 5: and rage over this new muse of his was all

829
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 5: consuming for Gay, and Janis was soon exposed to the

830
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 5: wilder parts of his lifestyle. One day, they went to

831
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 5: a coke fueled party at Richard Pryor's house, where the

832
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 5: comedian lost control and smashed a wine bottle over his

833
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 5: wife's head. They also went to Studio fifty four with

834
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 5: Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall, where actor Ryan O'Neill crept

835
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 5: up behind Janis and put his penis on her shoulder.

836
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: How Mary Kevin's basically of him. Allegedly, after they married,

837
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 4: Janie gave birth to their first child, and the forty

838
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 4: year old Gay would burrate the twenty two year old

839
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 4: jan for her changing post birth body. He'd purposefully swerve

840
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 4: the car while driving with jan and the kids in it,

841
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 4: and he threatened to drive them off the road, and

842
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 4: soon Gay pushed her into affairs with other men, booking

843
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 4: hotel rooms for her and any man he saw take

844
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 4: a shine to her. Once, when Gay disappeared without a

845
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 4: trace from a family holiday in Hawaii, Janis came home

846
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 4: and slept with Gay's rival, Teddy Pendergrass, and when Marvin

847
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 4: found out, out of his mind on coke and mushrooms,

848
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 4: he lunged for Janis with a kitchen knife. He held

849
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 4: the knife to her throat and said, this love is

850
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 4: killing me. I beg you to provoke me right now

851
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 4: so I can take us both out of our misery.

852
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 5: It's all very on the no, isn't It's literally what

853
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 5: he did to his dad. It's like, yeah, provoke me,

854
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,919
Speaker 5: provoke me so I can just do it. Yeah, don't

855
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 5: make me stay in this state of like wanting to

856
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 5: do it. Just make me do it.

857
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

858
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 5: And it is also interesting because he's a very paranoid

859
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 5: man by this point, Like we said, he's very paranoid,

860
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 5: he's very possessive, he's very obsessed with maintaining jan to himself.

861
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 5: But then he also does the thing of like making

862
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 5: her have these affairs with other men, which is interesting.

863
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 5: Do you think it's possibly? But then he loses his

864
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 5: mind when she sleeps with pentagraphs? Do you think it's

865
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 5: a weird way in it's still about him being in control,

866
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 5: so as long as he's choosing who it is. Maybe

867
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 5: it's again about not staying in that state of will

868
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 5: it happen or won't it happen? That psychological abuse that

869
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 5: his dad like instilled in him. Maybe it's like she's

870
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,959
Speaker 5: gonna cheat anyway. I'm sure she's gonna cheat, And maybe

871
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 5: he can't stand that in between stage of like when's

872
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 5: it gonna happen? So he it's the same as provoking

873
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 5: his dad. It's like, I'm going to force you to

874
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 5: have this affair. So at least I'm still in control.

875
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 5: I know when it's happening, I know what's going on,

876
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 5: and I know why I'm so angry. Yeah, maybe I.

877
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: Think you're out of something. I think it's partly that

878
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: the control piece of it. I think this part of

879
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: Marvin Gaye that liked men as well, and like the

880
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: idea of some of the men that were sleeping with

881
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: his wife.

882
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 5: I think that's part of it, too interesting interesting.

883
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 4: Thankfully, on this occasion, Marvin Gaye's mood switched and he

884
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 4: let his wife go. She took the kids and she

885
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 4: left the good.

886
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 5: But Marvin did harass Jan saying that she'd stolen his family.

887
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 5: I need accuse her of strange things like sending gang

888
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 5: members to try and kill him. It's clear as paranoia

889
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 5: was getting worse, and decades of not paying his taxes

890
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 5: were catching up to him. The money from his string

891
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 5: of hits was still flowing in. He once asked Motown

892
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 5: for his recording fee to be given as a million

893
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,479
Speaker 5: dollars in cash in a suitcase so he could show

894
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 5: his father he'd made it.

895
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: That is so.

896
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 5: Desperately sad. I mean, imagine being Marvin gay and still

897
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 5: feeling like you need to prove something to your piece

898
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 5: of ship father.

899
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's speaking of things that are on the nose,

900
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 4: and I hate to drag it back to Motown to

901
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 4: musical I can't help myself. There's a there's a line

902
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 4: in Motown and musical where I think they're arguing about

903
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 4: the release of what's going on Berry Gordy and Marvin Gaye,

904
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 4: and Marvin Gay just goes, you're not my dad. I

905
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 4: have a dad, and then he storms off these yeah,

906
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 4: and then you don't really see Marvin Gay for the

907
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 4: rest of the show.

908
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 5: Because he's in the bag eating code because he's been

909
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 5: shot after But this was the problem. So he is

910
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 5: earning money, He's still making good money from all of

911
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 5: his mut of course he is. But the problem was

912
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 5: that as soon as Marvin had any money, it would

913
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 5: just go to paying off his debt, paying his divorce proceedings,

914
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 5: and also to furnish him with an endless stream of drugs.

915
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 5: And by nineteen seventy nine, and surprisingly, Marvion Gay's career

916
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 5: had stalled. He was on the run from his ex wives,

917
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 5: his family, his fans, his label, and the taxman. For

918
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 5: seven months, he hid out in Hawaii, sleeping in his

919
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 5: van or on the beach. Imagine how high you would

920
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 5: think you were if it was nineteen seventy nine and

921
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 5: you were just on the beach and you saw Marvin

922
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 5: Gay asleep in the sand. What have I taken?

923
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 4: But eventually Marvin Gay agreed to tour the UK to

924
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 4: drum up some cash, but it wouldn't be that easy.

925
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 4: His terror at performing on stage and his changeable moods

926
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 4: made it a nightmare to organize. He climbed out of

927
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 4: a window at Heathrow to avoid flying to Manchester for

928
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 4: his next show. On another date, he was booked to

929
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 4: perform in front of Princess Margaret, who is my favorite

930
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 4: Royal Marvin Gay had heard, and these things are true,

931
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 4: very hip, like to party. Princess Margaret absolutely both of

932
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 4: those things, and that's why she's the best one. But

933
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 4: in a sudden change of heart, Marvin Gay claimed that

934
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 4: he resented performing for Royalty and said he had been

935
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 4: tricked into the show by his tour manager. So Marvin

936
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 4: Gay left Princess Margaret waiting in a theater for hours

937
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 4: until she finally gave up and left.

938
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 5: That's pretty borer of him, though it is like nah.

939
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 4: And naturally it was front page news. Headlines like Popstars

940
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 4: snubs Margaret were splashed across the tabloids. Gay was making

941
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 4: enemies wherever he went. He bounced around Europe and the

942
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 4: US CBS bought him for one point five million from Motown,

943
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 4: hoping for one last comeback, and Marvin Gay built up

944
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 4: his strength. He even sow it up slightly, staying with

945
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 4: friends in Belgium, and then he made one of his

946
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 4: biggest hits yet, sexual healing.

947
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: Before we get into the sexual healing that we all

948
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: so desperately crave, here, can I just go back to

949
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: Princess Margaret at lea say that Princess Margaret's nineteen sixties

950
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 1: exploits with in Swinging London, with the rolling stones, et cetera.

951
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: There's some fertile stuff there for us to unpack at

952
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: another time. I just want to sult lay that out.

953
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 5: There, perfect, perfect. So in nineteen eighty two, Marvin Gay

954
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 5: Senor moved back to Washington, So we left the Big

955
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 5: House and he went back to fix up the family's

956
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 5: old house. Now for the other residents of the Big

957
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 5: House in La So that's Gay's mother Alberta, and his

958
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 5: siblings Frankie and Jean, and their families. It finally meant

959
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 5: having some peace. Marvin Senior's drinking hadn't improved over the years,

960
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 5: and neither had his temper. Soon though, Alberta fell ill.

961
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 5: She'd had a risky operation and she had weeks long

962
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 5: recovery to get through, all the while Marvin Senior, her husband,

963
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 5: was nowhere to be found. Marvin Gaye Junior was furious.

964
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 5: He stayed with his mother and made sure she had

965
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 5: everything she needed while she recovered, but he was soon

966
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 5: pulled away by his public. After five rocky years, his

967
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 5: career seemed to have bounced back. He won nine Grammys

968
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 5: that year and Sexual Healing would be the biggest R

969
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 5: and B hit of the nineteen eighties. Even his drug

970
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 5: use was at the lowest it had been for years.

971
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 5: But then two things happened to unravel Marvin Gaye once

972
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,479
Speaker 5: and for all. Firstly, forced out on the road again,

973
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 5: his nineteen eighty four tour would prove to be his

974
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:57,959
Speaker 5: wildest yet. And secondly, sixteen months after Marvin Senior left

975
00:51:59,120 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 5: he returned to.

976
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 4: La on tour. Marvin gay was completely out of control.

977
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 4: Things had definitely changed since the early days. Jay, can

978
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit about Marvin gay at

979
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 4: his best and then we can compare it to where

980
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 4: he ends up?

981
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: Yes, I can. I mean Marvin gay you mentioned the

982
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,959
Speaker 1: success of Sexual Healing and even when he's at his best,

983
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: though he's at his worst so he's on stage and

984
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: he's crap. Now he's leaning into this, this this sex

985
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: symbol status that he has, and he's got this like,

986
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, do we talk about this earlier? Do

987
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: we talk about his the fact that he couldn't dance, No,

988
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: Marvin Gay couldn't dance unbelievably. If you google Marvin Gay

989
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: live footage, he kind of you, guys Seinfeld fans probably not.

990
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: It looks like Elayne Benis dancing. Listeners will know what

991
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, just like not a good dancer. So

992
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: he had all this stage fright about being on stage,

993
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: and he had all this this shame from this fear

994
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: of being thought of as being gay because he was

995
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: sensitive and the stuff with his dad and all that.

996
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: So the way he combats that in the eighties is

997
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: he leans into this sex symbol status on stage and

998
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: he's doing like the strip tease, the sexual healing, and

999
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: he's kind of a caricature of himself. But it works.

1000
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: It works for a while anyhow. But then the thing

1001
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: we all have to understand about where his live touring goes.

1002
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: I mean, he literally ends up bringing two men on

1003
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: the road with him. One is a priest, the other

1004
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: is his coke dealer, and he has them on opposite

1005
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: rooms in his hotel, connecting rooms so that he can

1006
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: do drugs and then immediately go confess his sins. Wow,

1007
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: talk about on the nose with the angel and the

1008
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: devil on each shoulder. And it's a shame because he

1009
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: was really at the height of his success and for

1010
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: a moment things were cleaned up. But they go off

1011
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: the rails pretty quickly there in the beginning part of

1012
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: the eighties.

1013
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 5: It's just like he is like nothing if not on

1014
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 5: the nose. But it is just so tragic because it's

1015
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 5: like a man who's trying. He's like, I'm gonna take

1016
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 5: my priest, but he's also like, but I love that coke.

1017
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 5: I'm taking you too, Dila, get in and Yeah, I

1018
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 5: just pulled up a live video on YouTube of Marvin

1019
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 5: Gay singing. I heard it through the grapevine, and you're right,

1020
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 5: he actually once you know the context of the fact

1021
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 5: that he didn't enjoy being on stage and that he

1022
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 5: wasn't a good dancer, you are like, he does look uncomfortable.

1023
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 5: He looks like he just wants to go backstage and

1024
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 5: eat some goat.

1025
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, a man's gonna eat so, as Jake says, the

1026
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 4: performances of Sexual Healing got increasingly raunchy, and by the

1027
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 4: end of this tour in the eighties, by the end

1028
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 4: of the show, he was basically just standing in his

1029
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 4: pants off stage. He was throwing back lumps of coke

1030
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 4: like there were skittles, and the paranoia was all encompassing.

1031
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 4: He was certain that someone was after him, that a

1032
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 4: hit man had been hired to take him out, so

1033
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 4: he insisted that his brother be at his side at

1034
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 4: all times. They looked so alike that Marvin Gay wanted

1035
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,959
Speaker 4: to use him as a decoy, and at one point

1036
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 4: he was completely certain that he had been poisoned. He

1037
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 4: even hired attorney f Lee Bailey, part of OJ Simpson's

1038
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 4: Dream Team, to find out how he'd been poisoned and

1039
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 4: who by Marvin Gay said that the only reason he

1040
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 4: was still standing was that the comedian Dick Gregory had

1041
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 4: concocted an antidote to the imaginary poison that had saved

1042
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: his life. Gay also went on to become obsessed with firearms.

1043
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 4: He'd been stockpiling them at his La home before the

1044
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four tour, and even brought his parents a

1045
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 4: handgun for Christmas so they could protect themselves on tour.

1046
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 4: He made his guards carry submachine guns and wore a

1047
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 4: bulletproof vest all the way up to the stage.

1048
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 5: As you can imagine from everything, Hannah just told us

1049
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 5: all that four month tour was a total disaster. And

1050
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 5: afterwards Marvin returned to the La House exhausted, manic on

1051
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 5: the edge, and more paranoid than ever. Gay took a

1052
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 5: bedroom between his mother and his father on the top floor.

1053
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 5: Now Alberta and her husband, Marvin Senior hadn't slept in

1054
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,439
Speaker 5: the same room for ten years, so it's basically Mum,

1055
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 5: Marvin Jr. And Dad on the other side, a little

1056
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 5: weird messed up sandwich, and Marvin Senior by this point

1057
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 5: basically just stayed in his room the entire time, swigging vodka,

1058
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 5: and Marvin Jr. To be honest, stayed in his but

1059
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 5: he wasn't swingging vodka. He has started freebasing cocaine, which

1060
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 5: is basically a method of producing cocaine that's almost one

1061
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 5: hundred percent pure, and its low melting point also makes

1062
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 5: it easier to smoke. Within seconds, users get a heavy

1063
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 5: euphoric high followed around half an hour later by a

1064
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 5: steep crash, which brings fatigue, depression, anxiety, irritability, and even

1065
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 5: more paranoia. Marvin Gaye had an elaborate security system installed

1066
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 5: at the La House, but he was in deep. Dealers

1067
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 5: would be in and out of the house constantly, would women.

1068
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 5: At one point, up to twenty or thirty people would

1069
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 5: be coming in and out of that house every day,

1070
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 5: which is a lot for a man who is that paranoid.

1071
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 5: And his dad, Marvin Senior, absolutely hated this.

1072
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 4: And then on the thirty first of March nineteen eighty four,

1073
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 4: Marvin Senior woke up angry. As well as the commotion

1074
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 4: of the house. He resented his son's success and his

1075
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 4: relationship with Alberta and pretty much everything else is Sun

1076
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 4: did as well, But this particular fight on the thirty

1077
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 4: first of March was about money. Marvin gay Junior's debts

1078
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 4: were escalating and it was threatening their home. It was

1079
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 4: later reported that at this stage Marvin Gaye owed over

1080
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 4: a million dollars to the IRS, a further six hundred

1081
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 4: thousand dollars to the state of California, and another three

1082
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars in divorce payments.

1083
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 5: In nineteen eighty four. Man, oh my god, that is horrific.

1084
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. In one of the divorce settlements, the judge made

1085
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 1: Marvin Gaye fork over the royalties to his ex wife

1086
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 1: from his albums. He had like four albums he had

1087
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: to produce where all the royalties had to go to

1088
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: his ex wife. So he purposefully tried to make them

1089
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: shit and he just couldn't. He just couldn't. Too good.

1090
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: Just they're not bad albums at all. Wow, I don't think.

1091
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 5: Anyways, that's amazing.

1092
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 4: Marvin Senior was obsessed with wanting his son to know

1093
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 4: that he was a failure after all, and then when

1094
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 4: Alberta couldn't produce a specific insurance document, Marvin gay Senior

1095
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 4: flew into a rage. He spent the rest of the

1096
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 4: day storming about the house late into the evening, shouting

1097
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 4: at no one in particular.

1098
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 5: It distressed Marvin Jr. But he knew better than to

1099
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 5: step in between his parents having a fight unless he

1100
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 5: absolutely had to. Like we told you earlier, he knew

1101
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 5: what raising a hand to his father would mean. The

1102
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 5: next day, the first of April, the argument was still simmering.

1103
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 5: Irene Marvin's sister in law came from the guesthouse with

1104
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 5: breakfast for Alberta. Alberta had seen the state of Marvin

1105
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 5: Junior in the past few days. He looked boned, hired,

1106
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 5: like he hadn't slept for months. He looked, in his

1107
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 5: mum's words, like he wanted to give up. So she

1108
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 5: gave the breakfast that had been brought in to Marvin Junior.

1109
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 5: And for some reason, for Marvin Senior, this was the

1110
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 5: final straw. He saw it as yet another act of

1111
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 5: favoritism and more disrespect, And at just after midday on

1112
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 5: the first of April nineteen eighty four, he shouted up

1113
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 5: the stairs to Alberta, and Marvin Junior shouted back.

1114
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 4: Here's what he said. He said that if his father

1115
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 4: had something to say to Alberta, then he could come

1116
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 4: upstairs and say it himself. Oh God, and so Marvin

1117
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 4: Senia did. He tore up the stairs, and as he

1118
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 4: ran in, screaming at both of them, Marvin Jr. Leapt

1119
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 4: out of bed and shoved his father to the ground.

1120
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 4: He punched and kicked Marvin Senior again and again. When

1121
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 4: Alberta separated them, Marvin Senior quietly picked himself up dusted

1122
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 4: himself off and went into his room. He returned with

1123
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 4: a thirty eight handgun that his son had bought him

1124
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 4: three months before for Christmas. Without a word, Marvin Gay

1125
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 4: Senior shot his son, Marvin Gay Junior, directly in the heart.

1126
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 5: It's just such a classic and this like build up

1127
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 5: of violence in an abusive home with a narcissistic parent.

1128
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 5: And he was waiting, he was looking for something to

1129
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 5: happen because Marvin Gaye Senior already knew the endgame. He

1130
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 5: already knew he was going to do that. It was

1131
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 5: just how am I going to get there? So the

1132
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 5: bullet into Marvin Gay Junior's chest ricocheted through his right lung, diaphragm, liver, stomach,

1133
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 5: and left kidney. And after he had shot his son,

1134
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 5: Marvin Senior calmly stepped forward and fired again into his

1135
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 5: son's left shoulder, and they go there's proof that it

1136
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 5: wasn't just a heat of the moment, a snap. He

1137
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,439
Speaker 5: had time to go into another room, pick up his gun,

1138
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 5: come back in there, shoot him, and then shoot his son,

1139
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 5: who's already on the floor again. So as this is happening,

1140
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 5: Frankie Gay, Marvin's brother, heard the shots and ran over

1141
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 5: and he called nine on one. He then lay by

1142
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 5: his brother as a pool of blood covered the floor.

1143
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 5: Marvin Junior was saying the entire time, I got what

1144
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 5: I wanted, I couldn't do it myself, so I had

1145
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 5: him do it. It's good. I ran my race. There's

1146
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 5: no more left than me. Oh my god.

1147
01:01:58,920 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: That is so.

1148
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 5: It's just so sad because it is just the cycle

1149
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 5: of his life ending up exactly where both of them

1150
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 5: knew it was going to end. It's almost like the

1151
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 5: tragic inevitability of it. And I know people say this

1152
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 5: all the time and it's such a cliche, but it's

1153
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 5: like watching a car crash in slow motion. This is

1154
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 5: exactly where it was always going to end up. The

1155
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 5: gun was recovered just twenty minutes later. It had been

1156
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 5: tossed on the front lawn of the house. Marvin Gaye

1157
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 5: was declared dead on arrival at California Hospital Medical Center

1158
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 5: just after one pm. It was the day before his

1159
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 5: forty fifth birthday.

1160
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 4: Marvin gay Senior was arrested and held at La County

1161
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 4: Jail on a one hundred thousand dollars bail. His account

1162
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 4: of the incident was widely reported, and he painted Marvin

1163
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 4: Junior as having exploded in a drug fueled frenzy, claiming

1164
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 4: that he had had no choice but to shoot his

1165
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 4: son in self defense. Doctors also found a walnut sized

1166
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 4: tumor in Marvin Senior's portuitary gland. His lawyer suggested that

1167
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 4: this may have affected his judgment, but the judge ruled

1168
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 4: that Marvin Senior knew absolutely what he was doing and

1169
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 4: that he was fit to stand trial.

1170
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 3: Good.

1171
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 4: Once again, he testified that his son was out of

1172
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 4: control and that quote, he knocked me onto the bed,

1173
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 4: and when I fell, my hand happened to feel the

1174
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 4: little gun under the pillow, and Marvin Senior said that

1175
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 4: he was sure that the gun was loaded with b

1176
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 4: B pellets. And in September, Marvin Senior unbelievably faced a

1177
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 4: reduced charge of voluntary manslaughter, mainly owing to evidence of

1178
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 4: bruising on his own body from the incident, and he

1179
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 4: pleaded no contest. The court heard that PCP had been

1180
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 4: found in Marvin Junior's body, which is known to make

1181
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 4: people violent. However, it was totally untrue. The prosecution had

1182
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 4: either misread or willingly misinterpreted the coroner's report.

1183
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 5: Alberta.

1184
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 4: Marvin's mum also repeated her version of events, which were

1185
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 4: that her husband had left the room after an altercation,

1186
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 4: returned with a gun, and then coldly shot their son.

1187
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 5: Still, the narrative held that Marvin Junior had flown into

1188
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 5: a drug induced rage and Marvin Senior had to defend himself.

1189
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 5: It's so awful, but it's like Marvin Junior, he's basically

1190
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 5: been on tour. He's acted crazy, he's made a lot

1191
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 5: of enemies, he's made a bit of a tit of himself,

1192
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 5: and so people are like, of course, I believe that

1193
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 5: he went into some sort of drug field mania because

1194
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 5: this was bound to happen, and it was, you know,

1195
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 5: it was behind closed doors. Like we said, his dad

1196
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 5: was a domestic terrorist. Was behind closed doors that people

1197
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 5: knew what he was really like. To everybody else, he

1198
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 5: was just you know, a bit of a kooky preacher

1199
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 5: who happened to be Marvin Gaye Junior's dad. So of

1200
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 5: course people were like, yeah, that makes sense. So on

1201
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 5: November the second, six months after he shot his son,

1202
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 5: Marvin Senior faced as sentencing and he was asked directly

1203
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 5: at this sentencing whether he loved his son, to which

1204
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 5: he replied, let's say I didn't dislike.

1205
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: Him, so brutal, so brutal so.

1206
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 5: Judge Gordon Ringer's closing statement was this, this is one

1207
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 5: of those terribly tragic cases in which a young life

1208
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 5: was snuffed out. But under the circumstances, it seems to

1209
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 5: be agreed by everybody, including the very able and experienced

1210
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 5: investigating officers in this case, that the young man who

1211
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 5: died tragically provoked this incident and it was all his fault.

1212
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 5: Even just the fact that the judge uses the word

1213
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 5: provoked this incident. It's like if this was some sort

1214
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 5: of Hammy lifetime movie, who'd be like, stop beating me

1215
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 5: over the head with it. Yeah, stop beating me over

1216
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 5: the head with this narrative. But it's you can't escape it.

1217
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 5: So Marvin Senior was sentenced to a six year suspended sentence,

1218
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 5: which was then reduced to five years probation. So Marvin

1219
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 5: Gay Senior, who shot his son twice once while he

1220
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 5: was lying on the floor, never went to prison. After

1221
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 5: fourty nine years of marriage, Alberta Gez finally divorced him

1222
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 5: after the trial, and he was prohibited from owning firearms

1223
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 5: or drinking alcohol. But he lived at the ripe old

1224
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 5: age of eighty four and died in just nineteen ninety eight.

1225
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 4: So hopefully we've shown you throughout this episode that there

1226
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 4: were two sides to Marvin gay We've definitely covered some

1227
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 4: of the more troubled aspects of his life, but we

1228
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 4: also have to couple that up with an incredibly astute,

1229
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 4: deeply talented artist that he was. He was beloved around

1230
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 4: the world, still is. Ten thousand people cued for hours

1231
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,919
Speaker 4: to pass his open coffin and Jake, one last time,

1232
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 4: we're going to hand over to you as our music savant.

1233
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 4: Could you tell us a little bit about the legacy

1234
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 4: that Marvin gay left behind?

1235
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: For sure, you know, on the one hand, it's complicated,

1236
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: Like you said, he was a very complicated guy. He

1237
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 1: had really messed up relationships in his life with women

1238
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: that were violent. But on the other hand, you know,

1239
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 1: if I look at the most important thing that Marvin

1240
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: Gaye did, it is that album. What's going on? That

1241
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: to me is the crown jewel of his legacy. If

1242
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: he hadn't made that album, he would be just known

1243
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: as this great soul singer who had a bunch of hits,

1244
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: bunch of number one hits, and you know, perhaps moved

1245
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: the genre in some sort of innovative ways, but with

1246
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: what's going on, he took it to an entirely different level.

1247
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: And like we said earlier, he created license for black

1248
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 1: artists to protest using the Billboard charts and that had

1249
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: never been done before, and we take it for granted now,

1250
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: and it was a monumental achievement. And I think that's

1251
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 1: to me, that's the most significant part of Marvin Gaye's legacy.

1252
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 4: I think the most like overwhelming tragedy of the whole thing. Obviously,

1253
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 4: as we said multiple times, not excusing anything Marvin gay did,

1254
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 4: but I think the saddest thing is that even though

1255
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 4: he was at one time probably the most successful artist

1256
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 4: in the world, his dad controlled literally everything, even the

1257
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 4: way he died.

1258
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: Right, good point, good point.

1259
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 4: And that's all we've got.

1260
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 5: So that is it, guys, that is it. That is

1261
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 5: the story of Marvin Gaye Jr. I'm not going to

1262
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 5: say and Marvin gay Senior, because fuck that guy. And Jake, yes,

1263
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 5: this is it. This is your last like ten seconds

1264
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 5: to bring up pandas you felt to do it back.

1265
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 1: That oh my god, Oh my god, no, no, I

1266
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:42,639
Speaker 1: have the perfect one though you know it's Marvin Gaye's

1267
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: other brother, Panda Gay. But he was the good son.

1268
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: He was the one that Marvin gay Senior actually loved,

1269
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 1: totally controlled by kind of child, actually doesn't have.

1270
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 5: Sex, he ate se they go there, you go, all right,

1271
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 5: you did it, you did it. Guinness is on me

1272
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 5: when we finally meet up. Oh my god, my voice

1273
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 5: is going.

1274
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm going to wrap it up because Serrus he's dead.

1275
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 5: Okay, I killed it.

1276
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 2: Cool.

1277
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 4: So thank you so much for joining us. Jay, You've

1278
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 4: got an absolutely encyclopedic knowledge of music that we will

1279
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 4: be stealing from you once more, I'm sure, or many

1280
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 4: times more.

1281
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 1: Pleasure was all mine. Thank you so much for having me.

1282
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 1: Loved hanging out and talking to you guys.

1283
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 4: Wonderful.

1284
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 5: Thank you, Jake, everyone,