1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nol. They called 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: you to know. This episode is a heavy one. Please 10 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: know that from the offset, we feel it is important. 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: We also need to establish at the very beginning two things. First, 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: nothing in this episode should be mistaken for any sort 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: of medical advice. Uh. There are medical professionals who are willing, 14 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: more than willing to provide assistance. Will tell you how 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: to contact them at the end of the episode. Secondly, 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: this is not a hit piece on thousands and thousands 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: of experts working, often tirelessly, often underpaid to help people 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: escape harrowing cycles of addiction, and today's episode involves addiction. 19 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: These are sometimes explicit stories, but they're important stories, and 20 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: they're often not acknowledged in the mass media in a 21 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: way that is not exploitative. According to the National Survey 22 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: on Drug Use and Health, over nineteen point seven million 23 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: Americans aged twelve or older battled some sort of substance 24 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: use disorder in twenty seventeen, and you can find the 25 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: estimates range widely. There's also another claim that fifty three 26 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: million Americans aged twelve plus where U s a drug 27 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: abusers in that seems like a high rise. So the 28 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: numbers vary here depending on which source you go to. 29 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: But I think we can all acknowledge that substance abuse 30 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: is a huge problem, one that has become exacerbated in 31 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: these our days of pandemic. I mean, would you guys 32 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: agree it's just kind of part and parcel with the 33 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: way our country treats like mental health or it's just 34 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: not taken very seriously. And you know, I mean, the 35 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: pandemic was not only a biological health crisis, I guess, 36 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: but it's also become in snowballed into a mental health crisis. 37 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: And what is addiction if not a signpost of some 38 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: struggle with mental health. And I mean we've seen the stats. 39 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: It's absolutely ballooned in terms of like people falling back 40 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: into old habits who maybe had sought treatment in the 41 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: past or maybe off of the uh, off of that substance, 42 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever. And then because 43 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: of being cooped up and the you know, insecurity of 44 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: what the future holds and employment and all of that stuff, 45 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: people kind of fell back into those old patterns. It 46 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: makes absolute sense. But I don't think it's being addressed, 47 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, in the ways that some other countries addressed 48 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: things like that are taken seriously. Um, I don't know that. 49 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm sorry if I sound soap boxy about it, 50 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: but I don't really feel strongly about it, and it's 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: something that I've seen throughout my life and it's something 52 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: that I think has been stigmatized in a really nasty way, 53 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: and I think it's time for a change. I don't 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: think it's soap boxy. I think we're all on the 55 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: same page today. Now, what what What are your gr thoughts. 56 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: I agree that it is a It is a major 57 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: macro problem for the United States, substance abuse and use. 58 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: It is an even more harrowing micro problem, you know, 59 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: on the personal level, on the individual and I just 60 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: want to make the point that you know, we we 61 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: we made we were being very open with everyone here. 62 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: We are not targeting anyone who's attempting to help people 63 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: who are using drugs or abusing drugs. Were also not 64 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: targeting the individual person if you're listening out there who 65 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: has struggled with, you know, abusing a substance in one 66 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: way or another. I just want to make that really clear. Yeah, 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: it's never helpful to do so. Really, if you think 68 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: about it, yelling at people, bullying them, mocking them never 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: changes them for the better. That is, that is a 70 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: truth of the human species. And to the point about 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: mental health disorders, UH, there is a co occurrence right 72 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: wrapped up in substance abuse disorders. The numbers I just 73 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: gave at the top have fluctuated over time in response 74 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: to larger nationwide events such as an economic depression, a pandemic, or, 75 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: as we proved pretty conclusively vous episode, a widespread conspiracy 76 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: to hook people on opioids. Factors like this can all 77 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: influence rates of addiction, and luckily, there are experts, doctors, 78 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,559 Speaker 1: therapists working literally around the clock to help people free 79 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: themselves from these dangerous, sometimes fatal cycles of abuse. In fact, 80 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: there is an entire industry UH surrounding this concept, and 81 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: today's episode is about just that the rehab industry. Here 82 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: are the facts. That's right. This industry that we're talking 83 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: about today is a forty two billion dollar industry. And 84 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: as we said, as the problems have ballooned UM in 85 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: recent decades, so has the industry. UM. Because let's remember 86 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: that US insurance is privatized and uh, the healthcare system 87 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: is privatized and all for profit UM. So insurance be 88 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: and accepting rehab claims UM. But it's it's still not 89 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: the same as it's like having all of it covered 90 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: kind of, you know. I mean, you get a little 91 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: supplements and maybe there are certain providers that are quote 92 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: unquote in network, and as we're going to discuss today, 93 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: some of those aren't necessarily ones with the best intentions 94 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: for the patient. Maybe at least when you dig a 95 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: little deeper, UM. Increased coverage from Medicaid and the a 96 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: c A, the Affordable Care Act, in tandem with what 97 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: you talked about, then that opioid epidemic has you know, 98 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: what could be seen as a positive thing on the 99 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: surfaces fueled growing access to treatment UM as well as 100 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: that need for treatment. Right, Yeah, that's right insurance companies 101 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: under the A C. A and another Act that we'll 102 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: talk about today. Uh, they were mandated to provide treatment. 103 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: But of course, the system this large will always be 104 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: no matter how well intentioned, it will always be imperfect. 105 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: By the rehabilitation industry is projected to reach of fifty 106 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: three billion dollars in the US alone, with states providing 107 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: most of the funding, which means regardless how of how 108 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: you feel about rehabilitation as a concept or about treatment 109 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: centers in specific, if you live in the US, you 110 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: are paying for this. Oddly enough, this was may surprise 111 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: some of us in the crowd. Today, this industry is 112 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: not yet heavily monopolized. There's so it's weird because so 113 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: many other large industries are the funeral industry, the automotive industry. 114 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 1: You know, there there's a massive slice of the pie 115 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: that goes to a few big players. Usually there are 116 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: some big rehab chains out there, like nine or so, 117 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: but the industry is mostly made up of much smaller operations, 118 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: and as it grew over time, it became more specialized. 119 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: Right those what you know. I'm sure when you think 120 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: of things like Betty Ford, you might think of drug 121 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: addiction or substance abuse, but they're also treatment centers that 122 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: specialize in things like sex addiction or internet addiction, gambling problems. 123 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: There was one that I was interested to find, conspiracy 124 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: theory addiction. Have you guys heard about those centers or 125 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: those treatment programs? Oh, my gosh, no, but I can 126 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: see it. I mean we've seen it with things like 127 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: Q and On and people that kind of you know, 128 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: get a strange from their families because they're obsessed with 129 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. Yeah, it definitely feels like a 130 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: mental health facility more than any kind of even a 131 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: rehab to me. Yeah, and these things can be you know, 132 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: wrapped up right. It's it can be difficult to extricate 133 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: the two. But yeah, in the post qu and On world, 134 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: this has happened. We've had a lot of We've got 135 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: a lot of our fellow conspiracy realists who may have 136 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: lost contact with friends or family members because of these 137 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: kinds of beliefs or even flat earth theory, which you know, 138 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: people dunk on all the time, rightly so, but for 139 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: people really believe it, it can lead to estrangement, nicotine addiction, 140 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: anxiety disorders, eating disorders. The list goes on. I think 141 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: it's a very important point that you may have been 142 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: about this industry not being monopolized, because what that is 143 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: going to do rather than having these glithes in the 144 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: industry that kind of controlling how much money you can 145 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: make essentially in a facility, because they make a certain 146 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: amount of money, they charge certain prices. You know, it's 147 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: a standard that basically gets set when there's a monopoly 148 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: or you know, a couple of big companies. In this case, 149 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: everybody is essentially vying for market share and share and 150 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: getting you know, a similar amount of market share within 151 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: the industry. So everybody is pushing as hard as they 152 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: can to get as many patients or clients, customers, whatever 153 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: you want to refer to. You know, somebody who would 154 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: be going to one of these facilities, they are they're 155 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: trying as hard as they can to get as many 156 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: people as they can. Similar issue with private prisons, right uh, 157 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: this this is a huge, increasingly well known market and 158 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: it's often private. As you said, Matt treatment can be 159 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: very expensive, like the Betty Ford clinic right where you'll 160 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: you'll see celebrities in the news going to betty Ford 161 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: because of maybe a relapse or struggle with some sort 162 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: of addiction, or if we're being cynical, sometimes to engage 163 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: in some pr after a something has smirched their reputation. 164 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,359 Speaker 1: But look, folks, at the offset, there is an absolute, 165 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: definite need for these programs, and there is no escaping 166 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: the simple fact that rehabilitation has literally really saved people's lives. 167 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: There are people right now that you may know there. 168 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: There may be people listening today who are alive now 169 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: because they received care and treatment. But there's more to 170 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: the story, and it's an important aspect of the story. 171 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: Like let's say you have a loved one or family 172 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: member in need of help. You might be overwhelmed by 173 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: the sheer flood of conflicting, contradictory advice you get from 174 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: all corners about what to do next. In a way, 175 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: it's like the experience of expecting a child. Right, you 176 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: have people come out of the woodwork swearing by some 177 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: very weird stuff in a very authoritative way. But where 178 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: does that authority come from. That's where we see a 179 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: lot of claims and criticisms originate. There was a wonderful 180 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: piece a while back on last week Tonight wh you 181 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: all know we're big fans of that, see, and it 182 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: showed out numerous rehabilitation facilities struggle with not just credibility, 183 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: but with accountability. Yeah, there's a professor emeritus at the 184 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: University of New Mexico named William R. Miller who is 185 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: mentioned in that In that piece, he contacted several rehab 186 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: centers and he was attempting to learn more about their 187 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: success rates, because a lot of these facilities claim that 188 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: they've got just a large number of percentage of people 189 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: that go through their facility and then get out clean 190 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: and they can they live on their lives without ever 191 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: having to deal with abuse. Again. Well, he found that 192 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: multiple centers for various types of addiction or disorders as 193 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: we listed earlier, they claimed this high success rate and 194 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: the lowest claims the lowest claims of success rates were 195 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: around eight, meaning those those these places considered eighty percent 196 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: of their patients essentially cured, right, and and that's for 197 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: the long term, that's not like cured for a couple 198 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: of months, that is, you don't got to deal with 199 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: it anymore. But when professor Miller asked for data to 200 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: back up these various claims, he found that absolutely zero 201 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: of the places he had contact and reach out to 202 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: had data to actually back up these claims, or at 203 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: least data they were willing to share. I guess the 204 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: safest phrase would be kind of what you said, long 205 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: term recovery, right, instead of necessarily cured to be fair, 206 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: to be painfully fair. That does not automatically make these 207 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: claims untrue. But it's pretty troubling to note, isn't it 208 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: that at the very least, there wasn't much effort to 209 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: track or document anything, and they're dealing with people's lives. 210 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: That's where some of the criticism begins, but it is 211 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: far far from where the criticism ends. So we're gonna 212 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: pause for word from our sponsor and we'll die eve 213 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: into the dark often unreported conspiracies surrounding rehab. Here's where 214 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. Standards, right, who needs them? Come on standards? 215 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: Let's just wing it. I've thought standards were important, guys. 216 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: I thought that's to how you measure things with a standard. No, No, 217 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: let's let's make it up as the mood strikes us, right, Like, 218 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: maybe let's go pet horses that. Yeah, you know that 219 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: that equine therapy does help sometimes. Yeah, if you if 220 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: you like horses. I guess that's true. You do need 221 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: to at least not be afraid of a horse. But 222 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: but I'm just putting it out there. And we've talked 223 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: about this before. My wife, who's a school psychologist, has 224 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: seen equine therapy work wonders for younger children. Oh yeah, 225 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: and there's a there's a great movement here in Atlanta 226 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: that my family has participated in in helping kids from 227 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: the inner city get out and learn how to work 228 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: with horses and how to work on farms. I'm thinking 229 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: of that John Oliver piece because there's a great segment 230 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: in this interview where there's this person who went through 231 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: a treatment center that had equine therapy, and in very 232 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: crass terms, he talks about how it did absolutely nothing 233 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: and he hates horses. It's it's a classic if you 234 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: watch it, but it's it's a serious thing. There was 235 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: no there was no law about whether or not you 236 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: could or could not use equine therapy. There was also 237 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: no standard for what constituted success. There was no data 238 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: and no studies that proved the efficacy of this. That 239 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's bad, that doesn't mean it doesn't work, 240 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: but that means there wasn't much due diligence put into 241 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: figuring out what it actually did for patients. And might 242 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: seem strange, right that rehab facilities can make so much 243 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: money year over year without backing up their own claims 244 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: of success. But that's unfortunately not surprising when you consider 245 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: this profoundly troubling fact as we record right now, there 246 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: are absolutely no federal standards across the board for counseling 247 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: practices or rehab programs, zero zip, zilch data. Yeah, it's 248 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: even more extreme than that. Some states don't even require 249 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: high school degree or any kind of you know, mental 250 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: health training or um, you know, pub social work kind 251 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: of background to become an addiction counselor in California, for example, 252 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: as long as you're operating privately and dealing directly with 253 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: patients who pay directly to you. UM, just about anybody 254 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: can start an outpatient center. And it's not it doesn't 255 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: necessarily point as some kind of you know, insane level 256 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: of corruption at the state level. UM. It's just a 257 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: thing that we see oftentimes when an industry or demand 258 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: for an industry outpaces the infrastructure that's in place or 259 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: the regulations that are in place for for that industry. UM. 260 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: So a lot of the regulators that that are you know, 261 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: installed to uh oversee these kinds of operations just weren't 262 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: ready for this huge growth. It's this ballooning of this 263 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, rehab industry UM and just became backlogged and overwhelmed. Uh. 264 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: Not to mention insurance companies being in the similar boat, 265 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: but like you said, Ben, despite good intentions, UM, these 266 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: private for profit entities often make their money by denying 267 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: fraudulent claims. And it's complicated further by the fact that 268 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: you know, insurance companies, being private for profit organizations, make 269 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: money or the very least, you know, don't have to 270 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: pay out money by investigating and denying fraudulent claims. So 271 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: they do have incentives to crack down on and deny 272 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: treatment that they see as unsound or abusive. And yet 273 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: that backlog still is a problem because these investigations are 274 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: horror conducted by people and if they are absolutely underwater 275 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: and there, you know, workload is overwhelming, some things are 276 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: going to fall through the cracks or it's going to 277 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: take a very long time to actually track down. And 278 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: in the meantime, you know, everything kind of moved forward, right, 279 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: that's true, and experts recognize this problem. There's a guy 280 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: named Dr Mark Willenbring, who was the former director of 281 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: Treatment Research at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, 282 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: who explicitly said, there's nothing professional or evidence based about 283 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: counseling programs, and without these sorts of standards, and without 284 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: these standards being enforced, things can get uncomfortably and dangerously 285 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: wild west pretty quickly. Like if you are entering a 286 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: treatment facility now in the current day, there's nothing really 287 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,239 Speaker 1: stopping the administrators they're from subjecting you to treatment that 288 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: has been proven to do more harm than good. We 289 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: found one study that might be familiar to people about 290 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: something called confrontational strategies. This one was new to me, 291 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: but it apparently it originates in the sixties and seventies. 292 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: I think this is the concept that a counselor essentially 293 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: would give very frank feedback to someone, let's say, suffering 294 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: from a substance addiction. Uh, but it could also be 295 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: just yelling expletives at them and judging their character, telling 296 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: them they're so wrong, telling them it's almost like I'm 297 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: imagining it's like one of those intervention TV shows, but 298 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: instead of giving people loving feedback like we want we 299 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: love you. This is why it hurts us that you're 300 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: dealing with this, This is how it hurts me. It's 301 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: more of just like you're you're terrible, and why are 302 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: you doing this? Yeah, like the the I used to 303 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: think of those as popcorn interventions, like you would see 304 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: a show like Dr Phil or something. We're going to 305 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: scare this bad kid straight. Uh. The issue with those, 306 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: you know, like we said at the top, is attacking 307 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: people often will not change their mind or incentivize them 308 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: towards the behavior you wish them to exhibit. It's it's 309 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: tough and this lack of oversight, you know, you see 310 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: it in other types of US treatment industries, like the 311 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: troubled team industry. In fact, one of our colleagues and 312 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: friends of the show, producer Josh Thain, is me out 313 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: with a podcast about a specific example of just how 314 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: harmful the troubled teen industry can become. It's a podcast 315 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: called Camp Hell and Awaki, which is coming out at 316 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: the end of this month. Highly recommended. Do check it out, 317 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: and it's really good, but it's brutal. It is maybe 318 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: not suitable for all listeners, but yeah, be be aware 319 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: of that. So this problem with standardization can have these 320 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: deadly consequences. When people who are treated as experts, even 321 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: with good intentions, base their ideas of treatment entirely on 322 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: their own personal perspective or on their own clinical experience 323 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: instead of data, instead of information compiled by experts, they 324 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: run the serious risk of putting patients in danger. I mean, 325 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: take uh, you know you mentioned intervention. There's so many 326 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: like celebrity rehab shows, right, and you know, they purport 327 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: to be about normalizing addiction and stuff. At the end 328 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: of the day, they're just kind of like a celebrity 329 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: Big Brother show kind of situation that's ultimately looked at 330 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: as entertainment, which I find kind of further alienates folks 331 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: going through this. But maybe that and maybe I'm wrong, 332 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: but the whole celebrity rehab house thing, it always seems 333 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: to be about like how much drama can we cause 334 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: it's the same attitude as like any other reality show. 335 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: It's all about creating, manufacturing these moments um for people's entertainment. Yeah, 336 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: you know, and that's I mean, that's harmful for the 337 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: people on the show, but it also you know, as 338 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: you said, old that can be harmful to the people 339 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: watching as well, not to mention exploitative take something like 340 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: celebrity rehab like you mentioned with Dr Drew, this program 341 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: used an approach that, accorded experts maya savits, wasn't backed 342 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: up by by data like they it wasn't proven to 343 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: be effective. And the unfortunate dark note there is that 344 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: more than thirteen percent of the patients involved in that 345 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: died after treatment, primarily due to overdoses. And it's tough 346 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: to know how bad that actually is only because you know, 347 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: we we heard the statistics from the other treatment facilities 348 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: that say around eight of people are quote unquote cured 349 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: when they leave a facility. Um and then you imagine 350 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: that of the patients from this show ended up dying 351 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: due to an overdose. I guess it's just it feels 352 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: like this is terrible, but it feels like it's on 353 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: par with statistics of of people who just who don't 354 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: get a lot out of a treatment facilit This problem 355 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: also means that treatment centers aren't required to offer alternative 356 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: treatments even when those methods or techniques are proven to 357 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: have efficacy, you know, like for instance, the administration of 358 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: a substance like methodont they're not. They're not. There's not 359 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: a law that says you're required to offer this because 360 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: research shows it works or something like that. But the 361 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: problems don't stop there, like we go If we go 362 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: back in and we dig through the data, we find 363 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: even more distressing things. So, okay, we I can't remember 364 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: where we've talked about this before, but whenever you read 365 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: a study, one of the first things you want to 366 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: check is whether it is self reported, like a poll 367 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: that is self reported. Berns taught us that it's all 368 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: at how a question is frame, right, and it's all 369 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: in how a person feels at the time, right, Are 370 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: they talking about their past self, their future self, or 371 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: their current self, because those are often three different people 372 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: who may have three different answers to a question depending 373 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: on how it's praised. This kind of applies to rehab facilities. 374 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: Those eight percent success rates that Matt mentioned earlier are 375 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: often entirely self reported, sometimes based on something as simple 376 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: as the clinic calling former patients to check in, which 377 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: means it's two layers of self reporting at that time, 378 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: and that can literally be all it is ring ring 379 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: how you doing So, what is the stop a patient 380 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: from just not telling the truth. It's a phone call. 381 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: That's a really tough thing. And I bet there are 382 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who have dealt with 383 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: a loved one who has done that very thing, where 384 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: you know they've gone through something, they've been through a facility, 385 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: you've you know, called to check in on them or 386 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: even gone to see them to check in on them, 387 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: and everything appears to be fine. They self report that 388 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: everything is fine, and then you learn later that it 389 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: was very much not. So that's a tough thing because 390 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: what what else? This is my only this is my question. 391 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: What else would you do? Would you have like mandatory 392 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: post drug screenings for patients in some way, or even 393 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: voluntary drug screenings? And I wonder how many how many 394 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: patients would accept that as just a new thing that 395 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: they do moving forward after treatment? Right? Like would there 396 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: should there be some kind of law baked in that 397 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: says after you go to a treatment facility, you need 398 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: to check in X amount of times for why abounts 399 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: of months or years? Uh, there's not. There's not a 400 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: lot out there like that. There's especially there's not like 401 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: a federal level thing about it so right now. The 402 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that a treatment facility in 403 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: the US, depending on to Knowle's point, which state it's in, 404 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: can pretty much claim to be whatever it wants to be, 405 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: and it can say whatever it wants to say about 406 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: the effectiveness of its treatment and its approach, and it 407 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: will often not be required to offer solid evidence that 408 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: these strategies even work, you know what I mean, not 409 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: just like not that they help patients, but that they 410 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 1: don't harm them. The burden of proof simply doesn't exist. 411 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: And then that's not to say, of course, the treatment 412 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: facilities are all somehow scams. Again, rehab has literally saved 413 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: people's lives, but there's no getting around it. Folks in 414 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: this business do have the opportunity to make a lot 415 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: of money without doing what they're saying they're going to do. 416 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: And this stuff matters and has absolute consequences, you know, 417 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: for people's in people's lives. American addiction Centers estimated eight 418 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: pcent of recovering addicts will relapse in a single year 419 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: after leaving our rehab facility. It's a pretty shocking statistic. Um. 420 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: But as we're going to discuss after the break, there's 421 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: a reason for this, and we're back. We talked a 422 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: little bit about corruption and conspiracy, and I think we've 423 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: we've done our best to make clear that this is 424 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: not saying the industry entirely is made up of bad actors, 425 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: but there are provable known cases of corruption, deep corruption, 426 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: and you know, to be completely candid, we like many 427 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: of our fellow listeners today, have had personal experience with 428 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: some of these systems, if not directly, then through our 429 00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: relationships with our families or our loved ones. And the 430 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: conspiracies and the corruption, it's real. It's not a theory. Uh, 431 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: these things are happening likely as you hear today's episode. Yes, 432 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: And one of the places, one of the physical places 433 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: that we're going to focus on as we're talking about 434 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: this concept is South Florida and a couple of places 435 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,239 Speaker 1: in Florida like Delray Beach and a lot of the 436 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: beaches that are just along the coast near there. And 437 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: as we're talking about these things, I am personally going 438 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: to be discussing experiences of a few close people in 439 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: my life who have been through many of these experiences. 440 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: So we're just gonna throw that in when it's contextual, 441 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: just to give you a heads up. But to begin, 442 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna start with some reporting coming out of Vice. 443 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: That's right. Adam Jazinski, speaking to Vice, a veteran of 444 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: Florida's sober home industry, says that the business oftentimes is 445 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: uh corrupt to the core. He alleges that sober homes 446 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: weren't really so much safe spaces for patients and recovery 447 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: as they were what he describes, in his words, quote, 448 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: holding barns for kids to wait until they relapsed. Um. 449 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: And he claimed that many of these bad actors who 450 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: were operating these facilities were actually making these shady kind 451 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: of backroom deals with treatment centers and and again, in 452 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: his words, quote, unscrupulous people would ease that process along. 453 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: They'd come through with a bag of dope, get your 454 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: dirty urine, and sell you for two thousand bucks. Yeah, 455 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: so let's unpack that. Really. Does that literally mean they 456 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: would tempt you with drugs and then you know, with 457 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: the intention of making you get a dirty screen. Yeah, 458 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: that's one way it could work. There's a kickback process 459 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: that we can examine here. When they say sell you 460 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: for two thousand dollars, it means they're sending you from 461 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: that sober home as a relapse patient to a treatment 462 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: facility or back to a treatment facility because there's a 463 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: rentse and repeat cycle that can occur here. Florida has 464 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: absolutely been a hotbed for rehabilitation corruption in the past. 465 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: There is a harrowing seventeen NBC News investigation that found 466 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: many vulnerable patients in Florida specifically have become quote grist 467 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: in an insurance fraud mill. And we can walk through 468 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: how it works. Unfortunately, the steps are well established and 469 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: these operations have been pretty successful. Yeah, and and before 470 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: we get into it, let's to find a couple of 471 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: things really quickly. So a treatment center or a rehab 472 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: facility is where a person would go to get treatment. 473 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: We've talked about that, where a person would go to 474 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 1: get all kinds of thing, anything from counseling to UH strategies. 475 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: They will learn strategies on how to cope with their addiction, 476 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: how to not UH indulge in the behaviors, or at 477 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: least strategies theoretically to do those things. A sober home, 478 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: at least in Florida is where a person would leave 479 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: a treatment facility and go live with others who are 480 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 1: doing the same thing, attempting to, as the name states, 481 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: live in a sober manner. And as we're going to learn, 482 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: oftentimes those places are not necessarily the it's not the 483 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: best environment for one to live cleanly. And we'll talk 484 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: about it. But I've got some personal experience here from 485 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: people who have been through this, this thing which is 486 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: often referred to as the Florida Shuffle. So let's get 487 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: into it. Yeah, this is where they caught like, so 488 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: what you know, As as Null said earlier, the concept 489 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: here gets pretty close to the idea of selling people. 490 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: And that's how some of these folks have thought of 491 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: that in the past. They've even been called body brokers. 492 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: That's the conventional term. So let's say you are, unfortunately 493 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: a corrupt treatment center. You saw the opportunity two commit 494 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: a kind of indirect insurance fraud, maybe with willing participants, right, 495 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: And what you do is you partner with these body 496 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: brokers and these operators of these widely unregulated sober homes, 497 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: and you start targeting people. You're looking for a specific 498 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: type of vulnerable person, someone struggling with addiction and someone 499 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: who also has good health insurance because again, these health 500 00:33:53,200 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 1: insurance companies will often pay out various sometimes exorbitant cost 501 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: that may be inflated by one person or another. So 502 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: these brokers and these sober home owners, they become predatory. 503 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: They start finding people who are trying to get clean 504 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: and they say, hey, I'll give you can stay here 505 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: for free or for a very low price. We'll give 506 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: you a gift card to go to the grocery store, 507 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: so you don't have to worry about food. You want 508 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: some cigarettes, do you want you know, uh, beauty treatments 509 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: like manicures, etcetera. Totally All you have to do in 510 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: return is go to this specific treatment center. This is 511 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: the one that we recommend and require. And then every 512 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: time that one of those people goes to that corrupt 513 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: treatment center, there's a kickback paid to the owner of 514 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: the sober home. You can start to see the cycle. 515 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: And this is something that was observed by a very 516 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: close person to me where they noticed that there were 517 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: p well in the working in the sober homes who 518 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: were being paid by the owners of that sober home 519 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: to go out and recruit, as you said, vulnerable people 520 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: with very good insurance to do this exact thing. This 521 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: is an eyewitness that I'm not going to talk about 522 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: who this person is, but just know that I was 523 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: on the phone with them five minutes before we started 524 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: recording this episode discussing this very thing, and they told 525 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: me that they saw this firsthand. And look, we're no 526 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: stranger to being overcharged in you know, certain health care facilities, 527 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: whether it be hospitals, and the sliding scale that goes 528 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: along with like how much does an asperacause it depends. 529 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: It's like airline tickets, you know, no one knows at all. 530 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: There's so many factors can go into it, and you 531 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: can always argue your way out of it, but it's like, 532 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: why can't it just be standardized? And that's the same 533 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: deal here. Not only UM are patients kind of treated 534 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: like commodities. Uh, These treatment centers build their insurance companies 535 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars for just that kind of stuff, 536 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: whether it be questionable counseling without any kind of real background, 537 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: like we're talking about earlier or expensive and at times 538 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: absolutely unnecessary drug screens. And then of course things like uh, 539 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: laboratory tests or what are often referred to as quote 540 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: exotic laboratory tests. I'm not quite sure what that would 541 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: entail UM. But right, like, I mean, you know they 542 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: you were at the mercy of the proprietors of these facilities, 543 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: who you know, would argue that these are all necessary 544 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: steps to ensure that someone is on the road to recovery, etcetera. UM. 545 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: But it's sort of like you know a lot of 546 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: those uh kind of mafia you know, construction deals you 547 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: always hear about where it's like they make their money 548 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: by overcharging for you know, a chair or like whatever 549 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: it might be, and it's hidden on this paperwork. And 550 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: because of the backlog we're talking about, or any kind 551 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: of bureaucratic backlog, sometimes these things go unnoticed for a 552 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: very very very long time. UM. And and the people 553 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: that are you know, responsible for these types of kind 554 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: of crooked practices don't get caught, if ever, or at 555 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: the very least, they keep doing it and doing damage 556 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: to people and the system for a long long time. 557 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: And State Attorney Dave Ehrenberg notes UM in an excellent 558 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: point that really mirrors what we've been talking about earlier. 559 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: These relapses, those of patients that relapse after leaving one 560 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: of these facilities. What is that if not great for business? 561 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: He says, quote, this is an entire industry that's been 562 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: corrupted by easy money. Unscrupulous actors have taken advantage of 563 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: well intended federal law and a lack of any good 564 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: law at the state level to profit off people at 565 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: the lowest stages of their lives. Maybe at the top 566 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: of the show, sounded the dismissive like, I just I'm 567 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: very suspicious of of of insurance in general. I feel 568 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: like things like co pays and having to navigate all 569 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: of the red tape just to get it a little 570 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: bit of help just to get treatment, and you end 571 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: up kind of paying, you know, these premiums, and then 572 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: every time I go to the doctor, I end up 573 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 1: getting a bill like for for however much it is. 574 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem you know, it's certainly less than it 575 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: would be if I didn't have insurance at all, but 576 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: it's still sometimes a couple of hundred bucks. And I 577 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:18,959 Speaker 1: looked down at the thing, and it's like, why wasn't 578 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,479 Speaker 1: this covered? I don't understand. How do I even look 579 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: into why? Um So, these laws, while well intentioned, we're 580 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: still working within a very flawed insurance system that's only 581 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: just started to accept the idea of covering mental health 582 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: treatments like this, um, and it's it's it's it's broken, 583 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: and then the ability for it to keep up with 584 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: this new backlog of cases is just impeded by the 585 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: fact that it's already kind of broken. Um. So the 586 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: federal law that Aharnberg is referring to is not regulation. Um. 587 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: He's talking about the Affordable Care Act and the Mental 588 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: Health Parity Act of two thousand eight, And can you 589 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: help us unpack those those kind of the relationship between 590 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 1: those things. Yeah. Yeah, So earlier I had said there's 591 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: no federal level regulation the a c A and the 592 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: Mental Health Parity Act that that you just mentioned. They 593 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: some aspects of it might be considered controversial, but in 594 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: this context, here's what they did. They required private insurance 595 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: companies to cover things like substance abuse treatment, and they 596 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: prevented these companies from rejecting people who have pre existing 597 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: conditions related to that. And they had also allowed younger 598 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: people to stay on their parents insurance until they were 599 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: twenty six years old. So this meant that insurance companies 600 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: had to enter the game, right, and that's part of 601 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: what fueled the growth of this industry. And I would 602 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: agree with you. These laws are well intentioned, but without 603 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: regulation and oversight, they present this huge opportunity for corruption 604 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: and outright conspiracy. And it's an opportunity that it seems 605 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: numerous people and institutions have taken advantage of in recent years. 606 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: And again, look a taxpayers, yes, are footing the financial 607 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: bill here, but the patients are all too often paying 608 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: with their lives. And that's something you can't put a 609 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: price on no matter. You know what what these scammers 610 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 1: think about two thousand dollars per body. Yeah. In the 611 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: in NBC investigation, they specifically talked about a twenty four 612 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: year old woman who went to one of these facilities 613 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: and then ended up in one of these houses and 614 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: she owed eed there while at at the Silver Living House, 615 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: and she passed away and prior to her dying, which 616 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: was obviously tragic to the family, prior to her dying, 617 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: she reached out to her mom and said that one 618 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: of these guys who was working at the facility, I 619 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: think it was called Reflections. It's always a name something 620 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: like that, you know what I mean. Like the same 621 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 1: way there's a genre of names for uh for suburbs, 622 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: you know, like Shady Oaks or Park Lake. Uh. Reabsenters 623 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: have names like oh, I'm just I'm making some up here. 624 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: I hope they're not true, but uh something like Breeze 625 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: Hills or Milestones, right, sure. Yeah. Well, one of the 626 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: people there at the facility where she had been to 627 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: allegedly was supplying the women at that at that home 628 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: with drugs, specifically with opioids. And it was that same 629 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: cycle that we just outlined, and the people that I 630 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: know said that there was a similar thing occurring. Um 631 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: And we can get into even more detail about some 632 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: of these things, but it should be I would just 633 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: like to put out here that even in the best 634 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: case scenario, let's say one of these sober homes is 635 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: attempting to do the right thing and help people get through. Oftentimes, 636 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: there are five bedrooms in a home that used to 637 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,879 Speaker 1: have only three bedrooms, but they turned it into five 638 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 1: bedroom home, and each one of these bedrooms is being 639 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 1: occupied by two, maybe three people, and each of those 640 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: people is paying the home let's say a hundred to 641 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars. In the case of the people I know, 642 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 1: it is two hundred dollars per person per week, which 643 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: means that the individual or group that owns that home 644 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: is making tons of money on rent. Think about how 645 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: much rent money that is. That's so that's like five bedrooms, 646 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: three people in each bedroom, Let's say two hundred dollars, 647 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: so six hundred times five three thousand dollars a month, right, 648 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: really really nice money coming in. Then you add on 649 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 1: top of that any kind of kickbacks that come from 650 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,919 Speaker 1: the cycles that can occur. You're talking about a big 651 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:13,439 Speaker 1: incentive for someone to get into that game. Question, how 652 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: different is that? I know it's different in terms of 653 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: what these are in patient facilities, and it's it's more 654 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: about perpetuating the addiction than just robbing people of their money. 655 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: But I've always thought that the d u I schools 656 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: that are like mandated when people get you know, a 657 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: d u I UM are somewhat similarly crooked, and that 658 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 1: there's not much regulation there either, and you're basically forced 659 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: to take these classes and pay out all this money 660 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: that is to a private for profit company just happens 661 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: to have a cop contract with a state or government, 662 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: you know. Entity do you see any parallels between these 663 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: two or am I am I misreading this? It doesn't 664 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: feel like the same thing to me. Just I don't know. 665 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: I don't know what essentially a d u I school is. 666 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: I've I have only I'm only aware of defensive driving schools, 667 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: which is a similar mandated thing. I don't think that 668 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: one could be corrupted in the same way. Yeah, it's interesting. 669 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: I I imagine there could be a situation where someone 670 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: is staying so a sober home. You're you're supposed to 671 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,919 Speaker 1: be staying there while you're taking out patient treatment. That's 672 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: why it's not regulated the same way, and it has 673 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: a lot to do with Florida's Fair Housing Act. But 674 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: I could see a situation maybe when someone is in 675 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: UM an alcohol rehabilitation program and it's out patients, but 676 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: they're required to go with this specific center because it's 677 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: in partnership with their sober home. I could see them 678 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,719 Speaker 1: also being required to go to a specific school maybe 679 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: and and maybe that's where they kickback occurs. I'm sorry, 680 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: and maybe I wasn't clear all all I'm saying. I 681 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: know that that these d u I schools like it's 682 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: it's a similar situation that anyone can start one. UM 683 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: Literally just google d u I school and there's a 684 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: wikiHow article called how to Start a d u I 685 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: School eight steps with pictures. So I mean it really 686 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 1: is like a similar situation, and that you don't have 687 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: to be some kind of licensed counselor or therapist to 688 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: do this, and these treatment programs you couldn't even really 689 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: call the treatment programs with these classes are required and 690 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: cost a lot of money. Um, when someone you know 691 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: gets a driving under the influence charge, you have to 692 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: take these. So it's sort of like a money, you know, 693 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: money faucet that is purporting to like be helpful to 694 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 1: individuals who you know. I mean, I guess the the 695 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: assumption is that if someone has had a d u 696 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: I and then in some way need help, I guess 697 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: because who else would put themselves in that situation. I 698 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: think that's oversimplifying the case, but it seems like these 699 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: there is a bit of you know, palms to be 700 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: greased in this kind of situation too. But I know 701 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: it's not one to one, but I just wanted to 702 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: bring that up. Yeah, the interesting part there is if 703 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: you think about it, um, I would assume that those uh, 704 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: those d Y courses are not paid by insurance, So 705 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: then if someone is getting built, then there's a ceiling, right, 706 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: because you're only able to build the individual individual. That's 707 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: a good point, and you can make more money because 708 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,760 Speaker 1: you're messing with incredibly wealthy insurance companies at this point, 709 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I wonder if anybody's tried 710 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: to get the big boys involved, as anyone like called 711 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: up Blue Cross, Blue Shield and said, hey, you know 712 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: it's crazy, Tom's sober home. Uh got an offer for 713 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 1: you guys, put me on the phone with your CEO. 714 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: But it's weird because in the end, the insurance companies 715 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: are just dishing out so much money. You think they 716 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: have an incentive to put a complete stop to this stuff, 717 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: or to the least the abuses of it, right, But 718 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,720 Speaker 1: they're also you know, overwhelmed because of how quickly this 719 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: this grew, you know what I mean. And yeah, they 720 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: would have, like we said earlier, they would be the 721 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,360 Speaker 1: players who had the incentive to stop this, right because 722 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: they and taxpayers and people's families are are falling victim 723 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: to this scheme on the financial end. This leads us 724 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: to the current situation. The immediate question is what now. 725 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: So we know this stuff is true, we know what's happening, 726 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: we know it is a level of systemic corruption in 727 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: some ways, so what is to be done? Fortunately, folks 728 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: were glad to report that there is more national attention 729 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 1: on this massive problem. It's not just Florida, it's not 730 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: just California, it's not just Ohio. It's not just one 731 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: weird part of town in your neck of the woods. 732 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: It is occurring in states across the US, and some 733 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 1: of these criminals are being successfully prosecuted. We found cases 734 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: um about like we found high profile cases the last 735 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,760 Speaker 1: several years, and they're being indicted. Uh, they're being charged 736 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 1: with pretty heavy crimes like us In Ohio there were 737 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: six people who were indicted for healthcare fraud to the 738 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: tune of forty eight million dollars. You know what I mean. 739 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 1: That's that's a lot of people in a sober home 740 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: pain two a month when you think about it, So 741 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: it gives you a sense of the scale a victimization here. 742 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: And you know, the thing that gets me about this 743 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: is this problem is also a huge hindrance to thousands 744 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: very well intentioned professionals who are working not for the 745 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: money there there because they want to make the world 746 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: a better place, or something happened to them or a 747 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: loved win personally that made this the number one mission 748 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,240 Speaker 1: in their lives. Like, it's like people who do social work. 749 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 1: Nobody is getting into social work because they think that's 750 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: the fastest route to buy in their first yacht. And 751 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,880 Speaker 1: these folks who are work the majority of the people 752 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: in this industry are doing their level best and they 753 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: don't have the support they need. They're they're often underpaid, 754 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: and they and then adding insult to injury, they can 755 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 1: get unfairly lumped in with scam artists in criminals. They 756 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: also have to deal with the effects of the corrupt 757 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: part of the industry around them, Right if they're trying 758 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 1: to help an individual get clean or or or help 759 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: themselves get through to the next stage of their life 760 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: and the rest of the corruption is just working exactly 761 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: against that. How do how do you actually how are 762 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: you successful? Yeah? Like you're you're working fifty plus hours 763 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,359 Speaker 1: a week and you're not corrupt, and you're in an 764 00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: area where you know there are body brokers active, where 765 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: the are scam artists running these sober homes? Do you 766 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,239 Speaker 1: have like do you have a list? And you just 767 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: do your best to steer your patients away from those places. 768 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 1: And how do you how can you establish to them 769 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 1: that you are trustworthy right because they may be aware 770 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,720 Speaker 1: of this kind of system, but luckily the public itself 771 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: is becoming more aware of this conspiracy. I just learned 772 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,280 Speaker 1: about a res a film that came out recently called 773 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,320 Speaker 1: Body Brokers, which is exactly it's about, exactly what today's 774 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: episode is about. I haven't checked it out, but the 775 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: reviews are good. If you want to learn more about it, 776 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,560 Speaker 1: do please check it out. Let us know what you think. 777 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 1: It follows the story of someone who is addicted to 778 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: heroin who makes is trying to make an effort to 779 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: get clean, but slowly comes to realize that his very sobriety. 780 00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: It's being sold to the highest bidder, and as situation 781 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 1: currently stands, if you are struggling with addiction we say 782 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: this at the end of every episode that we do 783 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: dealing with mental health or substance abuse, Please know you're 784 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: not alone. There are resources out there to help you, 785 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,440 Speaker 1: and you are worth it. Nothing in today's show should 786 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: be mistaken for medical advice. We are well intentioned, but 787 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: we are not experts. Instead, please research any in all 788 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 1: treatment facilities that you might be considering and don't hesitate 789 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: to reach out to the people who are waiting to 790 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: help you right now. If you live in the US, 791 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,760 Speaker 1: please consider calling places like one eight hundred six six 792 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,120 Speaker 1: to help. That's one eight hundred six six to four 793 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,759 Speaker 1: three five seven. That is a seven three sixty five 794 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: days a year treatment referral program and information service. It 795 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: has the unfortunately awkward name of the sal CASA National Helpline. 796 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 1: Oh my guy, is that an acronym? Ben? Yeah, you know, 797 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 1: we love acronyms on the show. It's just it's a 798 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: weird one. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. They're 799 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,319 Speaker 1: doing good work. They just didn't spend a lot of 800 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: time on the acronym I think. Yeah. So yeah, call 801 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,080 Speaker 1: them anytime, any day if you'd like to reach out 802 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,759 Speaker 1: to us, to talk to us about, you know, what 803 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,239 Speaker 1: you've experienced. We would love to hear what you have 804 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 1: to say. What you've been through. Um, we'd love to 805 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,720 Speaker 1: know what you've seen. Have you been to a sober 806 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,880 Speaker 1: living home? Have you gone through one of these treatment facilities? 807 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,439 Speaker 1: Are gotten caught up in the shuffle? Do you work 808 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: for an insurance company? Have you seen abuses by some 809 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: of these treatment centers? We'd love to hear from you. Two. 810 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,959 Speaker 1: You can reach out to us over social media on 811 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: Twitter and Facebook, we are conspiracy Stuff. On Instagram were 812 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,680 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you'd like to reach out to 813 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,759 Speaker 1: us via telephone, we have one of those two. It's right. 814 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: You can call one eight three three st d w 815 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: y t K. You've got three minutes to leave your 816 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,239 Speaker 1: message makes or to let us know what to call 817 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 1: you and that it's okay to use your voice on 818 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: the show, and you might end up at one of 819 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: our weekly listener mail episodes. Try to keep your message 820 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: within that three minutes if you can. If you have 821 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,879 Speaker 1: a message you'd prefer to send to us directly, UM 822 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,799 Speaker 1: that isn't a story or something that you'd want to 823 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,279 Speaker 1: be included on the listener voicemail episodes, you can do 824 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 1: that as well by sending us a good old fashioned email. 825 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,799 Speaker 1: And while you're online and feeling generous, feel free to 826 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcast. They do make 827 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: a difference. Every little bit helps. We surely appreciate your time. 828 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: Our email address, as we always like to end with, 829 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 1: is conspiracy at I Heart radio dot com. Stuff they 830 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of i 831 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,919 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 832 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 833 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:07,920 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.