1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Well he just won't go away, 2 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: will he. I'm talking about legal air air to a 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar legal dynasty. Alex Murdock, the one who is 4 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: now charged in the murder of his wife Maggie and 5 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: son Paul. Remember him, the one who got shot mysteriously 6 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: by an unknown assailant on a rural road. Well, now 7 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: it's out. Alex Murdock, who has fleeced his clients for 8 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars, most of it went straight 9 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: up his nose. He now has revealed what really happened. 10 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: Guess what really happened? South Carolina legal star Alex Murdoch 11 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: claims it was his cousin who murdered his wife and 12 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: his son, in fact, the same cousin that shot him 13 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: in the head. Well, my first question would be, well, 14 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: if your cousin shot you in the head on an 15 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: old dirt road, then why did you tell police it 16 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: was an unknown as Salem that drove back and forth 17 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: eyeing you, came back to shoot you. How could we 18 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: didn't tell him that then? I mean, see, Grace, this 19 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here 20 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Sirius Xmone eleven. You know what 21 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: I love almost as much as I love putting a 22 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: bad guy behind bars. I love it when they talk. 23 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: I love it when they try to lie their way 24 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: out of the hole they dug themselves. Joining me an 25 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: all star palem to make sense of what we know 26 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: right now. But first I want to go to a 27 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: special guest joining us An Emerson, senior investigative reporter wc 28 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: Ivy ABC News in Charleston and the star of award 29 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 1: winning podcast Unsolved South Carolina, the Murdoch Murders, money and Mystery, 30 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: and take a listen to this well. This new filing 31 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: indicates that they believe Eddie Smith could have had something 32 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: to do with the murders of Murdoch's wife and son, 33 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: and investigators turned a quote blind eye. The court document 34 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: stopped short of blaming Smith outright for the crimes, but 35 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: do point to a polygraph test conducted on smith bias 36 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: led agent in May of this year. Now. Smith reportedly 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: failed this test three times twice when asked if he 38 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: shot Maggie and Paul and if he was present when 39 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,839 Speaker 1: they were but Smith denied that he was anywhere near 40 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: the crime scene at the time and had friends at 41 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: his home the evening of the murders. You were hearing 42 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: our friends v C sc and Emerson what is happening? 43 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: Because you know, as soon as Alex Murdog points to 44 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: his cousin, which he has now done, he's the quote 45 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: real killer, the cousin is going to come up with 46 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: an alibi. And now he Murdog and his legal team 47 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: is stuck with this accusation. They're in it now, they 48 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: can't get out of it. That's what they've got to 49 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: go to trial with. Well, this is incredible, Nancy. You know, 50 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: every time we think we know which way this story 51 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: is going, it gives us another twist in turn, doesn't it. 52 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: And with Eddie Smith now being at the bulldye of 53 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: the whole defense for Alec Murdoch's attorneys, you start seeing 54 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: the pieces of the puzzle come together for sure. I mean, 55 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: we have been hearing about this guy ever since the 56 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: alleged assisted suicide attempt back in Labor Day of twenty 57 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: twenty one. Whoa hey, wait, wait wait the alleged assisted 58 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: suicide attempt. Now, let's be clear. What you're talking about 59 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: is when Alex Murda got shot in the head on 60 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: the dirt road, Jackie, can you pull up the sound 61 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: where he claims it was an unknown assailant in a 62 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: truck driving by, And remember and the trut went all 63 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: the way down the road and then comes back and 64 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: then shoots him. At that time he said he didn't 65 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: know who did it. Remember that, he said he was 66 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: on this dirt road fixing a flat tire or some 67 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: problem with his his vehicle, which we then found out 68 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: his vehicle has those ties that never go flat. Anyway, 69 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: that was a lie. Then he got to the story 70 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: of assisted suicide. Remember his story changed several times. At 71 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: first it was an unknown asailant, remember that, And I 72 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: do remember that, and I remember getting the call. I 73 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: actually was talking to his Jim Griffin the day that 74 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: story came out, And all we knew for a few 75 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: minutes at least was that he was shot, that Alec 76 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: Murdock had been shot and he was getting to a hospital. No, 77 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Dear Lord and Heaven. An Emerson, Joe Scott, do you 78 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: remember when Alex Murdock came into court after he had 79 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: been quote shot in the head, was serious brain injury. 80 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: He had on a band aid. He had on a 81 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: band aid The only thing that could have made it 82 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: worse is he if he had an action star like 83 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: Superman bandaid. He had in a bandaid about this big, 84 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: a little one. You know when you buy the box, 85 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, let me finish, you know, when you buy 86 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: the box of a sort of band aids. And they 87 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: got the really big one that nobody can ever use, 88 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: and then the correct So I didn't had a little 89 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,119 Speaker 1: bitty ones. It was one like that. It was stuck 90 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: on his head. That was the shot to the head. 91 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: There was no brain injury, nothing like that at all. Yeah, 92 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: you're right. I've got a few SpongeBob bandaids at my 93 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: house from my grand babies, and they could have used 94 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: one of those on there. I was thinking, you know 95 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: that he may have, you know, because even Gray's gunshot wounds, 96 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: you can have an underlying skull fracture and it's a 97 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: concussive event. How many times have I told you to 98 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: speak English? Regular people? Dummy down for me? Okay, wait, wait, wait, 99 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: I want wait. Is this the one nine one one 100 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: call where he shot on the side of the road. 101 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: Is that the one you've done? Wait a minute, wait 102 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: a minute, hit it, Jackie hamt be coinning I on 103 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: one way of your emergency. Yes, Um, we're on the 104 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: Zacca Hasty road and there is a man on the 105 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: side road with one overlaying his hands. He just laying 106 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: the fleet, weaving his hands round. Fine, he looks fine, 107 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: but it kind of looks like a set up, so 108 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: we didn't stop. Oh, I don't believe you. What areask 109 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: I had you rude on you on? All walking? We're walking? Hay? 110 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: Did you hear that it looks like a setup that? 111 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: That's what she said? And the guy is fine, except 112 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: quote laying there waving his hands or standing there. You 113 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: have more for me, Jackie, go ahead? Okay, what's going on? 114 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: I stopped. I got a flat tire and I stopped 115 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: and somebody stopped to help me. And when I turned 116 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: my back, they tried to shoot me. Oh okay, will 117 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: you shot? Yeah? But I mean I'm okay you shot? Where? 118 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: Where were you shot at? Huh? Did they actually shoot you? 119 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: They tried to shoot you? They shot me? But okay? 120 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: Where you need the ms? Uh? Well? I mean yes, 121 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: I can't drive, okay, seeing and I'm bleeding a lot. 122 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: Where part of your body I'm not sure somewhere on 123 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: my head, your head. Somebody just stopped from me man 124 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: um for nine one one. Did you hear that? Okay, 125 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: hold on, Scott Morgan and feel free to jump in 126 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: and interrupt doctor Michelle Dupre. Okay because doctor Dupre joining 127 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: me from South Carolina Forensic Pathologists, medical examiner, author of 128 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Really, this is the guy standing 129 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: by the side of the road waving his arms can 130 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: call nine one one and go hello. I was changing 131 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: my tire and someone offered to help me and then 132 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: they shot me from behind. He is no more has 133 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: a brain injury than the man in the moon. He's fine. 134 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: And now he's saying, this is the cousin who shot 135 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: him and he lied about it. I mean, maybe I 136 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: have a hearing problem, but Jackie Sydney, did you hear 137 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: him say my cousin just shot me in the head. 138 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: I didn't hear that. Did anybody? Okay, they're not looking, 139 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: but I think that they in their heart they mean 140 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: to say no, they didn't hear that. What about it? Dupris, 141 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: this is crazy. When we heard that, nobody believed it, 142 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: not even in the Again, did you hear the nine 143 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: one one dispatch doctor d Pree. She's like, well, what 144 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: she said, can you drive? You sound fine? Basically what 145 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: she was saying. I mean, she does this really and 146 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: to stop and half a flat tire and him change it. 147 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: He has a car that you can drive for fifty 148 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: miles on a flat tire. This is crazy, Okay, Joe 149 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: Scott jump in because that is not a brain injury. 150 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: And now he's saying the cousin that shot him murdered 151 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: Maggie and Paul. He's obviously lying. Yeah, I think that 152 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: he is. Because the story just keeps flip flopping, and 153 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that slid the South The 154 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: South Carolina Law Enforcement Agency is looking at in this 155 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: because anytime suspect begins to change their story over and 156 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: over and look, it's not just about this guy this 157 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: one time, it's about everything else going back in the 158 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: past relative to this case that just doesn't match up. 159 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: And so that's a problem and that goes to his 160 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: I don't know your attorney us, his veracity, I guess, 161 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: as as a potential of victim in this case. Time 162 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace with me Jessica Garth, Chief of 163 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: the Special Victims and Family Violence Unit at Prince George County, Maryland. Jessica, 164 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: I want you to listen to I just gotta play 165 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: one more and I'm hoping I'm not getting a really 166 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: clear description, but that's okay. I'm hoping this is Alex 167 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: Marnock talking somewhere on nine one one. Go ahead, Well, 168 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: let me get my deputies in the area to see 169 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: what's going on. Can you give me a description of 170 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: that meal. Um, I'm probably forties, Okay, it's not very large, 171 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: but he's kind of heavy, say a white hair, it's 172 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: a black some kind of like a smaller Kia Suv 173 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: or some of them. Yeah, didn't stop where he's at. 174 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: The suv is right where he's at. As well, you 175 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: get pulled over on the side of the road. There's 176 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: no damage to the suva. Tum it was okay, all right, Well, 177 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: let me get my deputy, okay, Jessica Garth fellow lawyer. 178 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: You know, the prosecutors are just laughing into their fists 179 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: because there's nothing better than the defendant charged with double 180 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: murder and so much more pointing to a third party 181 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: and actually naming them. Now, it's one thing if you say, well, 182 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: this guy looked like this, you know, heavy set, white 183 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: male in his forties driving a Kia. But then when 184 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: you actually say it was my cousin. I just love 185 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: that because then and you can get the cousins alibi 186 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: and show the defendant is out right lying through his teeth. 187 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I couldn't agree more, Nancy. I mean, it's 188 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: it's great when when defendants talk, because every time they 189 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: give an inconsistent story is something that we can use 190 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: in court. Um. And I agree with you one hundred percent. 191 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: You know, he's basically locking himself into you know, this 192 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: other theory about his cousin, um, you know, being the 193 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: killer in this case. So you know, if this goes 194 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: to trial and he tries to put forth any other 195 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: theory and he's basically backed himself into a corner, you know, 196 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: he's he's locked into this um. And I assume you know, 197 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: the state in this case is going to look into 198 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: alibi's for his cousin, and I'm sure they're just, you 199 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: know it, thrilled to have an idea of what the 200 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: defense is theory is going to be. I mean, in 201 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: this case, you hear a lot about you know, prosecution 202 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: by surprise and gotcha prosecution. But you know, the prosecution 203 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: has to turn over discovery to the defense. But it's 204 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: actually the defense and in many cases who doesn't have 205 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: to put forward their theory to the state, to the prosecution. Um, 206 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: they don't actually have to put on a defense at all. 207 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: You know, they can just sit there and make the 208 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: state prove their case. So when you have a defendant 209 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: in his council who's willing to give this much information 210 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: about what they're going to do, it's the gift, truly, 211 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: it is. You know, you're right. What a lot of 212 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: people don't understand, Jessicine Garth is exactly what you just said. 213 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: Under the rules of evidence that have been interpreted through 214 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: our constitution, the state is basically required to hand over 215 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: its entire file to the defense. You've got to tell 216 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: them every witness how to reach the Witnis, the address, 217 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: the phone number of you've got it. You've got to 218 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 1: give them all of your scientific evidence, which is the 219 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: medical examiner, forensics, ballistics, everything. You have to give them 220 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: all of your scientific reports, what the ballistics said, what 221 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: the autopsy said, what the fiber evidence said, what the 222 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: blood evidence said, including addresses and phone numbers for those experts. 223 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: In many jurisdictions, the defense doesn't have to hand over 224 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: anything at all to the state. They are supposed to 225 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: hand over scientific reports and witnesses so the state can 226 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: read them and prepare a rebuttal at trial for trial. 227 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: That said, that's just about it. You never have a 228 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: defendant give you their whole theory to the defense beforehand. 229 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: It's like you're playing checkers or chess and you tell 230 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: the other side, well, the first thing I'm gonna do 231 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: is blah blah blah, then the next thing is blah, 232 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: and then I'll checkmate. No, that is what is happening 233 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: right here at giving the state a chance to torpedo 234 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: the defense before they ever have opening statements. Now, speaking 235 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: of what Jessica Garth just said, joining us out of 236 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: Prince George's county, take a listen to our cut one 237 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: o two our friends at WI. Stif told investigators he 238 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: had an alibi and night of the crime with three 239 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: witnesses at his home, and that he heard that Paul 240 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: Murdoch had caught Maggie Murdoch, his mother, with a groundskeeper 241 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: she had a reported relationship with, and he might be 242 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: to blame for the murders as well as that groundskeeper. 243 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: The defense team also writes that the state has a 244 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: weak circumstantial case at this time, basing it the entirety 245 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: of it on a Murdock's location at the crime scene 246 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: within the hour of their deaths and a small amount 247 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: of Maggie's blood on a shirt when on which they 248 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: claimed transferred when he quote frantically attended his wife's bloody corpse. No, 249 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: absolutely not, Jess Gott Morgan. The blood on Alex Murdoch's 250 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: clothing is not a transfer mark. That. For instance, if 251 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: I stabbed Jackie again and then I go to her 252 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: and she reaches out and we get a transfer from 253 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: blood from her to me, a transfer like I hug 254 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: her and I get her blood on my Shirt's a transfer. 255 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: That's very different from a high velocity impact spatter. It's 256 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: like what's you're used to it. It's like flipping a 257 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: lot on and off. What's the difference in a high 258 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: velocity impact spat. J Scott Morgan, Yeah, well we measure. 259 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: We measured this in velocity, so we've got low, medium, 260 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: and high, and with high that generally in most cases 261 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: originates from a firearm. That means it's going to blow 262 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: back onto the individual if they're standing over. I tell people, 263 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: take an air salt can of hair spray, go to 264 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: your mirror and just tap it one time in that 265 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: fine little histamine spray that comes out and it hears 266 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: that glass. That gives you an example of what high 267 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: velocity looks like. It's very tiny. It's not a big 268 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: smear or a swipe or a wipe or a transfer. Yes, 269 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: it is not a drop. Trust here's a good example. 270 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: Remember when Travis Alexander was stabbed dead about thirty times 271 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: by Jodi Arius For she shot him in the head. Yes, 272 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: he walked managed to somehow, I guess after the first shot, 273 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: walked to his mirror in his bathroom and looked at 274 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: himself dying and blood drop we think, from his nose 275 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: onto the bathroom countertop where the sink is right. And 276 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: that one drop is like a little round drop as 277 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: opposed to a high velocity spray. That's what we're talking about. So, 278 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: Anne Emerson, what do you make of Alex murdog who 279 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: has been stealing millions of dollars? I think we counted 280 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: up five dead bodies connected to him or his family 281 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: stealing millions and millions of dollars. I don't know what 282 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: these judges and the law firm was doing, just sitting 283 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: with their thumb up their rear end during all of 284 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: this theft from clients. But what do you make now 285 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: of him claiming changing a story from an unknown assailant 286 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: to his cousin did it well? He absolutely things started 287 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: circling him pretty quickly as soon as they realized that 288 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: that that Mercedes could have driven another fifty miles. I 289 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: think that he already knew he was in trouble then, 290 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: and then I think cousin Eddie, with the story that 291 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: he came out with, I mean, he as soon as 292 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: as soon as Alec Murdoch starts going after him and 293 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: his lawyers start start looking at Eddie Smith as the 294 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: person Eddie's mislike hold on. And he tells me in 295 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: an interview, I actually went there because he called me okay, white, 296 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: white white. Ann Emerson guys An Amerson, senior investigative reporter 297 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: that we civ ABC News four, and she's got this 298 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: incredible podcast, I've got Unsolved South Carolina, the murdog murders, 299 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: money and mystery is that the name of it? Anne? 300 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: It is okay, which is an incredible podcast. Guys, she 301 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: actually speaks to the cousin murdog is blaming is they 302 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: is Curtis Eddie Smith. Okay, that's sad. I just want 303 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: everybody to know what we're talking about here. Tell me 304 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: what happened and don't leave anything out. Well, what happens 305 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: is when we sit down and talk to Eddie Smith. 306 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: It's like a bottom months after this has all come 307 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: out that now Eddie's being targeted as you know that 308 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: he had gone into this assisted suicide attempts. When Eddie 309 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: gets to the place, what he tells us is that 310 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: he sees a desperate man that wants to kill himself, 311 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: and he goes up to him. He grabs a gun. 312 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: There's a little bit of a shuffle back and forth 313 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: and saves him from getting shot, but the gun goes off. 314 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: Eddie says that he leaves because Alex says, I'm fine, 315 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm fine, but he takes the gun with him and 316 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: he takes off. He's like, under no circumstances was I 317 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: there to actually go and help him kill himself. Okay, 318 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: so wait a minute, Anne, you do know I'm not 319 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: swallowing this hook line and sinker. So I'm supposed to 320 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: believe that out of the blue, the cousin shows up 321 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: on the road where Alex Murdock happens to be on 322 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: this rural road, and then they had this struggle. Okay, okay, 323 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: So he calls him, says, I need you here. Okay, 324 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: go ahead. I'm skeptical, but go ahead. Well, I mean, 325 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: I think everybody is. And it's incredibly difficult to nail 326 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: down who's telling the truth because there's just so many 327 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: layers of lives that we've been told in this story already. 328 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: But you know what we learned from Eddie in that interview, 329 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: what he shared with me, which doesn't I mean, it 330 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense with all of the allegations 331 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: right now, that he saw Alex Murdoch like a brother. 332 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: He was like a brother, he said, he was like 333 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: a brother to him, and he felt the trade by 334 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: the and we were just at the we were not 335 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: even at where we're at today, where he's saying his 336 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: lawyer jurnalism, you know, making these allegations that Eddie Smith 337 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: was the one that killed Maggie and Paul. We were 338 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: just at the assistant suicide attempt. But then then Eddie 339 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: Smith's story. Of course, we know he's behind bars right 340 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: now for a storing of alleged crimes that he was 341 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: involved with Alex Murdoch over almost what is it, almost 342 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: a decade? Millions and millions of dollars for those of 343 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: you just joining us, South Carolina legal air multi millionaire 344 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: Alex Murdoch has now come out with it. He names 345 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: the person that he says is the quote real killer 346 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: of wife Maggie and son Paul, the hitman, and the 347 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: hitman is his own cousin. He also climbs this cousin, 348 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: Curtis Smith, is the one who shot him Murdock as well. 349 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: Now the cousin, Curtis Eddie Smith, claims to have an alibi. 350 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: What do we know of the alibi Ann Emerson? Well, 351 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: according to Eddie Smith, he worked at home with buddies. 352 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: And the issue is that they're at right now between 353 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: the defense and the prosecutors. From what I can tell, 354 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: we're still waiting to hear what the AG's got to 355 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: say about this, But what we're hearing is that Eddie 356 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: said that he was that his girlfriend Donna Easton can 357 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: testify that he was where he was, that he was 358 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: at home. He's got a couple of buddies. But the 359 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: concern from the defense attorneys is that they waited so 360 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: long to reach out to these friends that were supposed 361 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 1: to be at the home with Eddie Smith, that there 362 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: would have been time for Eddie to get to them 363 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: to say something. Okay, hold on, hold on. The defense 364 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: claims who waited so long to reach out Sled? Well wait, 365 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: why should Sled? Sled? Thanks, They've got their man, and 366 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: that's Alec Murdoch. If anybody should reach out to defense witnesses, 367 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: it would be the defense. Anyway. Anybody can reach out. 368 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: Anybody can make that phone call. Anybody can show up 369 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: with a subpoena if you're an officer of the court. 370 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: So don't throw that on the state that they did 371 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: something wrong. Bottom line, you know what, they can all 372 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: claim they were here, there or yonder. All they have 373 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: to do is get their cell phone records and ping 374 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: out where these people were, because guess what cell phone 375 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: records show Alex Murdog was at the scene of the 376 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: murder at the time of the murder. Guys in a 377 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: Bobshell breakthrough in the Alex Murdog case. Murdog now facing 378 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: trial for the murder of his wife, Maggie and his 379 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: son Paul. We're hearing more about what the cousin friend, 380 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: Curtis Smith had to say. He comes up with this 381 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: crazy theory that Maggie is having an affair with a groundskeeper. 382 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: Let's play that cut one, O two, one more time. 383 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 1: Jackie Smith told investigators he had an alibi the night 384 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: of the crime with three witnesses at his home, and 385 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: that he heard that Paul Murdoch had caught Maggie Murdoch, 386 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: his mother, with a groundskeeper she had a reported relationship with, 387 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: and he might be to blame for the murders as 388 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: well as that groundskeeper. The defense team also writes that 389 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: the state has a weak circumstantial case at this time, 390 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: basing the entirety of it on a Murdock's location at 391 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: the crime scene within the hour of their deaths and 392 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: a small amount of Maggie's blood on a shirt when 393 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: on which they claimed transferred when he quote frantically attended 394 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: his wife's bloody corpse. Jesscott Morgan, I don't know that 395 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: that's exactly how I would describe the cell phone data 396 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: that places Alex Mardock at the same of the murdyrs. No, No, 397 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: I certainly wouldn't. I think that it's it's rock solid 398 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: to tell the truth. You know, when it's painting and 399 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: you can triangulate the location of an individual, it's pretty 400 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: damning evidence as far as I'm concerned. These phones that 401 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: we carry around with us everywhere nowaday like a mill 402 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: sewn around our neck. It track us everywhere we go. 403 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: You know, it gives us a position relative to where 404 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: we are on a daily basis. And also if the 405 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: cousin was there, where's his cell phone data as well. 406 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: So long story short, we don't have to take his 407 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: word for it because you know, either him the cousin, 408 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: or he the cousin or one of the three alibi 409 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: witnesses are going to have their cell phones and they're 410 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: going to shay where they were at the time of 411 00:25:40,440 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: the murder. Time stories with Nancy Grace to Chris Buyers 412 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: joining us former police chief JOHNS Creek twenty five years 413 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: on the force, now private an investigator and polygrapher. You 414 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: can find him at Chris Buyer's Investigations and Polygraphy. Chris, 415 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: take a listen to our Code one O four Attorneys 416 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: Dick Harpool and Jim Griffin have filed a motion seeking 417 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: evidence which could indicate a potential co conspirator in this crime, 418 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: particularly Curtis Eddie Smith. According to the motion and according 419 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: to law enforcement sources who have independently verified this information 420 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: to fitz News, Smith was given a polygraph examination in 421 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: connection with this investigation, specifically asked whether or not he 422 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: had anything to do with the murders of Maggie Murdock 423 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: and Pal Murdock, which again Alan Murdock is facing two 424 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: murder charges in connection with their desks. According to my sources, yes, 425 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: Smith was administered a polygraph. Yes, Smith did fail that polygraph, 426 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: and one of my sources in law enforcement said he 427 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: failed to quote badly end quote that was Will Folks 428 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: on her fit News. Okay, Chris Buyers, Yeah, he probably did. 429 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: Pat He probably did fill a polygraph. I'm talking about 430 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: the cousin. But who knows what he was really lying about. 431 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: He could have been lying about being high on dope. 432 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: He could have been lying about selling meth or whatever 433 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: it was he had. He could have been lying about 434 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: having an affair with somebody. He could have been lying 435 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: about anything. That's like me with dragging Sydney and strapping 436 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: up to a polygraph, and I say, did you commit 437 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: the murderer, amongst other questions, and she says no, and 438 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: she fails the polygraph. Well, she may have filled a polygraph, 439 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 1: because I also asked her, did you get drunk as 440 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: a skunk this weekend? And she said no. That could 441 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: have been why she filled the polygraph. I don't know 442 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: why she filled the polygraph, but I do know I 443 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: trust those pings of the cell phones of Curtis Edward 444 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: Smith and has three friends the night of the martyrs, 445 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: and the pings on Murdog's phone show him there at 446 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: the scene of the double martyr of his wife and 447 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: his son. And he has high velocity human matter blood 448 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: on his clothes. Think you only get if you're thirty 449 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: six inches or less from the shooting. That's what I know. 450 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: So tell me about him, the new suspect. I'll just 451 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: call him that. Kurts said, we're spent the cousin. Tell 452 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: me about him failing his poll. Well, first of all, 453 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: the picture that the defense has put out is the 454 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: proof of him failing. The polygraph shows absolutely nothing. You 455 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: would have to see the polygraph report that the captain 456 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: from SLED did, and it's all about polygraph is all 457 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: about that pretest interview and getting the questions exactly right 458 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: and making sure that the person that you are about 459 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: to conduct the test on understand the questions properly. But 460 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: I've seen nothing in what the defense is put out 461 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: to prove that. To show that again, really have to 462 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: see the polygraph reports that the captain did. But that 463 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: picture is absolutely garbage. You know, not everybody is saying 464 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: the picture Chris Buyers explain. So they've got an exploded 465 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: picture of the polygraph examiner and the polygraph going on, 466 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: and they're showing just one huge what they're calling a response. 467 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: So you've got the line going across horizontal and they've 468 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: got this vertical line that they're claiming is a response. 469 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: But in looking at it, first of all, there's the 470 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: lines that are running vertical is showing when the examiner's 471 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: asking a question, and the response that they're talking about 472 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: is coming before the question bars even there, and it's 473 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: a it's a they're saying it's a crazy response, and 474 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: it is a crazy response, and that normally means it's 475 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: some type of interference like that they moved or something else. 476 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: It's your responses. You have to look at the reason 477 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: you do like two or three different charts. You have 478 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: to compare each of the charts and make sure that 479 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: they're all similar and one is not just huge and 480 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: doesn't look like the rest of them. And you can 481 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: even see on this chart, I'm assuming this line that 482 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: they're showing is the electrodermal activity plates, and right underneath 483 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: it is the heart rate, And you've got the eeda 484 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: response going up in the heart rate going down. They 485 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: should be going in the same direction together. So this 486 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: picture means absolutely nothing. It's all about what the captain 487 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: put in his report and which questions that he hit on. 488 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: You know, one of the one of the newscasts that 489 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: you've played earlier said that he failed at three times. 490 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: There's no such thing. There's either deception indicated or no 491 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: deception indicated. That's the only way that captain would have 492 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: scored the chart. So what do you make of what 493 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: the defense is claiming about this poly I would really 494 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: have to know exactly how I mean the questions that 495 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 1: they're showing in the news report that I have. Did 496 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: you shoot either of those people at the property on 497 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: Mozelle road, and were you present with either the people 498 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: shot at the property on Moselle Road. That is a 499 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: direct question, and then there's the evidence connecting question. He 500 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: could have failed it because he maybe knew or suspected anything, 501 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: he had any type of knowledge. And it's all about 502 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: reading that report and seeing how the investigator did the pretest, 503 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: how he got the physiological responses, how he really set 504 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: that question set. I'm not even sure what type if 505 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: he did, a probable lie or a directed lie. It's 506 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: all about You've got to see at all. You know, 507 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: you're an expert in this. Everybody else, including myself, is not. 508 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: But I do know this. Number one, Polygraphs are not 509 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: allowed in a criminal case unless both parties stipulate before 510 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: the polygraph that it will come into evidence. Number one. 511 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: Number two. Whenever I would be presenting with a poly 512 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: graph by a defense attorney going my guy didn't do it. 513 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: Look you past polygraph, I'm like, okay, soaken, look at it. 514 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: Who gave the polygraph? Is that somebody you hired or 515 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: is it an independent polygrapher, is someone of the state 516 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: uses or is it your cousin the polygrapher down the street. Also, 517 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: I want to see the questions, which question do I 518 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: see disturbance? That's what I call it when you get 519 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: a differently. Think of those machines beside your bed at 520 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: the hospital and they show your heart beat, and they 521 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: show your blood pressure and your breathing, and suddenly one 522 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: of those squiggly lines starts going haywire. That's what I'm 523 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: looking for on a polygraph. And when you're talking about 524 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: the questions, the question would have to be something like, 525 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: were you at the scene of the crime when Maggie 526 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: Murdog was shot? Did you pull the trigger and kill 527 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: Maggie Murdog? Not? Were you involved? Because as you said, 528 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: Chris Buyers involvement could be he told me about it. 529 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: After I covered up for him, I lied about it. 530 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: You know, it could be any sort of involvement. And 531 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: when you say no, then you get a bad polygraph. 532 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: So you want to see the questions and the lead 533 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: up to the questions, right, It's all about that pretest interview. 534 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: I've always said polygraph is as good or bad as 535 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: the examiner, and I will say that the sled investigators 536 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: and examiners I've I've been to conferences trained with those 537 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: guys and they're excelling at what they do. But yeah, 538 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: it's all about the questions. It's just like you said 539 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: that you you can't even reference did you kill someone 540 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 1: because you have to get into their mind and they 541 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: can think, well, hey, I shot them four times, but 542 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if they were dead or not. You're right. 543 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: Your requestions have to be did you hold the gun 544 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: that's shot? I mean that's why those are the questions 545 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: are so important, and you can just miss it by 546 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: just a little bit and give them any type of 547 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: excuse in their mind, and they're gonna that's what's gonna 548 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,239 Speaker 1: hit on that question. They're gonna pass. Ye. You're right. 549 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: It's all about the question, the phraseology, and the lead up, 550 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: which leads me to doctor Sherry Schwartz. Hey, anybody on 551 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: the panel, if you suddenly have a thought about what 552 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about, for Pete's sake, jump in. I mean, 553 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: you are the brain trust. Doctor Sherry Schwartz is joining 554 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 1: US forensic psychologist, specializing and capital cases like this. She's 555 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: at panther mitigation dot com. She wrote Criminal Behavior and 556 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: she also wrote Where Law and Psychology Intersect Issues in 557 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: Legal Psychology and Boy do we need you, doctor Sherry Schwartz, 558 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry, how is it now? My husband will say 559 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 1: this is his excuse. A rat on a sinking ship 560 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: will jump onto anything, They'll grab a hold of anything, 561 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: and you'll all go down. I was about to say, 562 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: what do people tell fantastical lies to get out of trouble? 563 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: And it's obviously a lie. And I'm not saying Curtis 564 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: Eddie Smith is an angel because he ain't. He is 565 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: far from it. But is Murdoch's so arrogant that he 566 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: thinks sled won't check out his cousin's alibi for the 567 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: time of the shootings? Well, it's I never met Alex Murdock, 568 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: so I don't know for sure. That's good for you, 569 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: Good on you. It certainly seems like the evidence points 570 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: toward this idea that he's untouchable because the Murdoch's family 571 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: has really been untouchable in many ways through for I 572 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: think a hundred years ish or something when the law 573 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: firm was originally established, so they're quite powerful in that area. 574 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: And you're right, Eddie Smith is no angel. Wait a minute, 575 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: Donor Sherry Schwartz, That's what I would always argue to juries. Yeah, 576 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: this witness is no angel. But who do you think 577 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: the defendant's hanging around with? Nuns and phrases and virgins? 578 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: H w L n Oh, he's sang a L S 579 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: guy right here. So that's the witness. Get up there 580 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: and start testifying. Bottom line, I don't expect him to 581 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: be an angel, right, right? So what about Murdoch and 582 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: his story? Does he think we're not going to check 583 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: it out? He probably doesn't really think that far ahead 584 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: because really, in his life, he's never really had to 585 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: justify any of his actions. Right, I'm imagining that the 586 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: Murdoch name carries a lot of power, and so it's 587 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: just a matter of Murdoch said it, so it must 588 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: be true. And let's just go on about our day. 589 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: And to answer your question about why do people try 590 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: to get out of trouble, well, I mean, he's got 591 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: a lot to lose, especially in this case, because he's 592 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: looking at possibly the death penalty and if not, decades 593 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: in prison. Well, and also, go ahead, and I was 594 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: going to ask you about that cell phone video that's 595 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: taken at the time of the shooting, but we'll circle 596 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: back jump in. Oh, okay, Now I'm just gonna say, 597 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: like once again, like just talking about the psychology of 598 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: this case. I mean, Eddie Smith very much said that 599 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: this that Alec Murdoch was incredibly close to him, that 600 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: he felt an allegiance to him, that he would do 601 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: anything for him. He basically said this in the interview 602 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: with me. So this is a person who obviously looked 603 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: to Alec as someone who was very close to And 604 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: I don't think you can ignore when somebody tells you something, 605 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: you have to leave them to that degree when they're 606 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: just talking about somebody. So if that's the case, then 607 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: you have somebody who already has already shown an enormous 608 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: amount of allegiance in these allegations of different of different 609 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: crimes that the state's going after. Cardis Eddie Smith's for 610 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: everything from from his involvement in drug feels allegedly to 611 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: his involvement in money laundering for Alec Murdock. So there's that. 612 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: But now one thing that I think is really interesting 613 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: here is that they keep on the sense attorneys for 614 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: Alec Murdock keep on going back to what they don't 615 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: feel like they're getting. They feel like they've keyed on 616 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 1: Alec the whole time. That's something that they really talked 617 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: about and harped on in in this motion to compel. 618 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: They said that SLED didn't properly investigate other possible suspects 619 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: because they want to use Ye Smith against Alec Murdock 620 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: and they feel like that. To me, that was a 621 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: really interesting part of this motion to compel is that 622 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: they want more DNA and gunshot residue analysis of Maggie 623 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: and Paul's clothes, and if that analysis doesn't exist, is 624 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: as a defense argument that fled it in properly investigating 625 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: other subjects that they were always looking at Alic. So 626 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: to me, that was an instance I think somebody else 627 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: is jumping in go ahead, but this is um doc. 628 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: It's also very interesting to write. At the time of 629 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: the two murders, the law enforcement came out almost immediately 630 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: and said that the community didn't have anything to worry about. 631 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: And so to me, absolutely that says that you know, 632 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: they have an idea of what's going on anyway. I mean, 633 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: certainly they have to investigate, but that was I think 634 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: very unusual. They knew from from the onset that this 635 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: was a targeted attack. You're right, and Emerson, what can 636 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: you tell me about cell phone video taken just before 637 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: the shooting. This is a huge revelation that we were 638 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: we were hearing about a few months ago. And another 639 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 1: twist there was cell phone video that was on Paul's phone. 640 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: Supposedly he was taking some videos of a dog that 641 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: he was kicking at the kennels and he was there, 642 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: and they're very too, very different accounts of what that 643 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: video shows as far as the mood and the feeling 644 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: behind the people that were in that video. You're supposed 645 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: to be able to see and hear. You're you're able 646 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: to hear Alec and Maggie and Paul talking from what 647 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: I understand, and you know that what the defense argues 648 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: is that that was not an angry conversation. Who cares. 649 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: It places him, Alex Murdock at the crime scene, at 650 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: the double murder, with the two victims, just the three 651 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: of them, at the time of the murders. That's the significance. 652 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: I don't care if they were arguing or not arguing. 653 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: He's there at the same and that's and that's what 654 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: they've got to get to. That's what they've got to 655 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 1: get to, is exactly when those murders occurred and whether 656 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: or not that video actually is within that timeframe. That 657 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: is what the defense is going to try and poke 658 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: holes into saying that that was not that that doesn't 659 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: show the exact time. But you're right, I mean, that's 660 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: what they're going to keep on arguing. Well, I guess 661 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: now we know who really did it. According to Alex Murdock, 662 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: sitting in jail on double murder and so much more, 663 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: it was his cousin. We wait as justice unfolds Nancy 664 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: Grace crime story, signing off goodbye for him