1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: For decades, hundreds of cities across the country have protected 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: undocumented immigrants from deportation, giving them sanctuary. Mayors in these 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: sanctuary cities, from New York to San Francisco, are vowing 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: to do all they can to continue to shield illegal immigrants, 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: despite President elect Donald Trump's promised to cut off their 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: federal funding. Chicago's Mayor Rama Manuel reassured undocumented immigrants in 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: his city on Monday, it always will be a sanctuary 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: city to all those who are after Tuesday's election, very nervous. 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: There's filled with anxiety. Has been spoken to you are 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: safe in Chicago. And yesterday, after a meeting with Trump, 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: New York City's Mayor Bill de Blasio said New York 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: would remain a sanctuary and reiterated to him at this 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: city and so many cities around the country, we'll do 14 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: all we can to protect our residents and to make 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: sure that families are not torn apart. Attacks on sanctuary 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: cities where a campaign staple for Trump. And now he'll 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: have six fifty billion dollars in federally funded leverage, but 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: will he use it. My guests are Lena Graber, a 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: special project attorney at the Immigrant Legal Resource Center in 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco and Kevin Johnson, the dean and a professor 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: at u C. Davis Law School Lena, cities seem to 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: be doing different things for illegal immigrants. Is there a 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: legal definition for sanctuary cities? Hi June, thanks for having me. No, 24 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: there is currently no specific definition of a sanctuary policy. 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't exist in law or regulation um to some extent, 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: what is a sanctuary policy as a matter of perspective, 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: but there is a big spectrum of what measures local 28 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: communities can take in order to protect the immigrants in 29 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: their jurisdiction and or refused to participate in assisting with 30 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: federal immigration enforcement. At the Immigrant Legal Resource Center, we 31 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: track some of the most important or most effective of 32 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 1: those policies, which are both resolutions or ordinances or administrative 33 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: policies where the local jurisdiction will not use its resources 34 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: to assist in federal immigration enforcement and in particular will 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: not agree to hold immigrants for ice so that they 36 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: can deport them. Kevin sence, states and cities can't be 37 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: required to enforce federal law, So is there any violation 38 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: of federal immigration laws in what these sanctuary cities are doing? 39 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: Not not generally, and I don't even think specifically. I 40 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: think traditionally it's been the case of the federal government 41 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: has power to enforce the immigration laws, to admit immigrants, 42 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: to deport I grants, and it's been up to the 43 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: states UH to UM enforce their their laws, including their 44 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: their law criminal justice laws. And that separation is thought 45 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: been thought of traditionally as being a good separation, because 46 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: you want the federal government that considers foreign policy consequences 47 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: of immigration enforcement, and you want the state local governments 48 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: to focus on what they should be focusing on the 49 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: safety UH and the well being of the residents of 50 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: the state local jurisdictions. In recent years, there's been some 51 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: states that have tried tried to intrude on the federal 52 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: power to regulate immigration, like Arizona UH, and the Supreme 53 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: Court is is said that that those those efforts are limited. 54 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: So I think it's what we're seeing now is some tension, um, 55 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: some um discussion, probably some debate about the role of 56 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: the states and the federal government when it comes to 57 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: immigration and immigrants and how to treat immigrants. Lena explain 58 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: the what the Obama administration has been doing using these 59 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: so called detainer requests to target undocumented immigrants, and how 60 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: some cities have been reacting so for the last many years, 61 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: ICE has been using this mechanism called an ICE detainer, 62 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: which is a message they send to typically a county jail, 63 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: but any law enforcement agency that says we're interested in 64 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: someone in your custody, please hold them for us so 65 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: that we can pick them up and put them in 66 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: deportation proceedings. And that mechanism has been roundly criticized in 67 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: the federal courts as an illegal arrest without probable cause 68 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: or a warrant. These requests are not reviewed by a judge, 69 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: they don't meet the requirements of the Fourth Amendment. And 70 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: in response to those core decisions and general concerns about 71 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: assisting in immigration enforcement, hundreds of counties across the country 72 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: and cities um but more often actually the county level, 73 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: have enacted laws or policies saying that they won't comply 74 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: with ICE detainers, and many of those um at sanctuary cities. 75 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: What they are really doing is following the law and 76 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: upholding the Constitution and the limits that apply to them, 77 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: and so it will be quite a strike for the 78 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: federal government to come in and say, although the courts 79 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: will hold you liable if you do comply with these 80 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: I detainers will try to take your money away if 81 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: you don't. Kevin, legally, can the Trump administration take away 82 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: federal money that is not related to the purpose of immigration. 83 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: I don't think at this point that the Trump administration 84 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 1: could do that. There was a bill that was pending 85 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: in Congress a while ago that would have attempted to 86 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: defund quote, sanctuary cities, that that bill died in Congress, 87 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: and I think that if the Trump administration wanted to 88 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: do something as extreme as it's suggesting it it wants 89 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: to do, it would have to go to Congress get 90 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: a bill that would try to somehow define what a 91 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: sanctuary city was and when they could be defunded, to 92 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: what could be defunded. But but I do think that, 93 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: you know, there are some limits to the strings attached 94 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: to federal monies, and we'll have to see how that 95 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: works out in any particular bill. And we haven't seen 96 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: a bill yet, and I imagine that there may be 97 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: one in the works. There certainly may be discussions, but 98 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: I don't think the President Trump, through executive action, could 99 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: just start defunding state and local governments because um he 100 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: didn't agree with their immigration policies. Kevin, in just about 101 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: thirty seconds, tell us what the Supreme Court has held 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: the conditions for Congress to impose UH conditions on the 103 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: receipt of federal money to the states. The Congress does 104 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: have the power to require certain things and include certain 105 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: strings with federal funds. UH, and it has imposed UH 106 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,239 Speaker 1: those strings in number of respects. For example, of federal 107 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: moneies aren't supposed to go to universities that discriminated on 108 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: the basis of race. It has tended to be relatively 109 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: narrow the strings. UH. And the courts, including the Supreme Court, 110 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: hasn't been willing to allow overbroad and over over overregulate 111 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: the states in that way. Attacks on illegal immigration and 112 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: sanctuary cities where a campaign staple for President elect Donald Trump. 113 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: What do you tell the wife who's lost her husband 114 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: because a sanctuary city released an illegal immigrant from behind bars. 115 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: This has to end. It will end if I become president. 116 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: I promise you that you now. Trump will have six 117 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: under fifty billion dollars in federally funded leverage. But will 118 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: he withhold funds from sanctuary cities across the country where 119 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: mayors have vowed to continue to protect illegal immigrants. I've 120 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: been talking with Lena grab Or, special project attorney at 121 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: the Immigrant Legal Resource Center in San Francisco, and Kevin Johnson, 122 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: the dean and a professor at u C. Davis Law School. 123 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: Lena have calls increased to your center since the election. 124 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: They have we have seen over the last couple of years, 125 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: with this intense rhetoric across the country that it's very 126 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: threatening to immigrant communities. We have seen more and more 127 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: questions about ways that local jurisdictions can, within their authority 128 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: um opt out of helping with immigration enforcement or otherwise 129 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: protect their immigrant residents and communities. And especially since the 130 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: election last week, we at the r C have received 131 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,359 Speaker 1: lots of requests for legal advice about I stainers, about 132 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: what should cities do and especially what is the extent 133 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: of their authority regarding immigration enforcement. Kevin, you were talking 134 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: about attempts in Congress to pass laws about immigration sanctuary 135 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: cities recently, just this week, in fact, in Texas State, 136 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: Senator Charles Perry filed legislation that would ban sanctuary cities 137 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: in that state. Is there any difference in looking at 138 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: it legally, if it is a state saying in this state, 139 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: we can't have sanctuary cities, or rather than the federal 140 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: government saying, you know, you can have sanctuary cities across 141 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: the country, I think it's a very significant legal difference. 142 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: States can regulate localities in that state in ways that 143 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: the federal government can't. And so some states, like California 144 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: has have laws that actually allow a local government to 145 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: act in certain ways and to cooperate in limited ways 146 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: with federal immigration authorities in other states within limits, I 147 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: think it could have different policies and approach things in 148 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: different ways. One of the problems would be trying to, 149 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, figure out how to define sanctuary cities and 150 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: how to how to direct, uh specifically, how local governments 151 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: should or shouldn't operate. But I think there there probably 152 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: is more power in the states to regulate localities than 153 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: the federal government regulating states and localities. Leo us excuse 154 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: me not. Governor Mayor rum Manuel of Illinois of Chicago 155 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: has been saying that has been in this a lot 156 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: because of the community there and because they would be 157 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: in particular trouble if any federal funds were withdrawn. But 158 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: he said the other day that he just doesn't think 159 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: that this is going to happen. I don't believe they'll 160 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: do it, that meaning take away any federal money, because 161 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: that I mean, every major city in the US would 162 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: be targeted, and that's not what an administration will do. 163 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: Do you agree that it is unlikely that this is 164 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: going to happen, this targeting of funds. I I do agree. 165 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: I think, um, it's it's not good policy. It would 166 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: be taking pounds of from the way, not only from 167 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: major cities across the country, but from far larger, potentially 168 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: far larger floth of counties and rural communities as well. Um, 169 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: and so on top of it being on as Kevin 170 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: was saying, quite shaky legal ground in terms of Congress's 171 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: actual authority to place these kind of conditions. UM, I don't. 172 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: I don't think it's really that likely. And Kevin, how 173 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: likely do you think it is? Taking the legal and 174 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: weighing it against the promises that Trump made over and 175 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: over and over again, I think it's not that likely. 176 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: It's certainly absent congressional author's day, and that um, the 177 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: Trump administration is going to try to defund state and 178 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: local governments that have an immigration policy different than the 179 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: one he likes. At the same time, I do think 180 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: there's likely to be a discussion between this president like 181 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: there was with the last president, in state and local 182 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: governments about what what is the role for state and 183 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: local governments, How can they play a role in immigration 184 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: enforcement or not? And I think there's going to be, 185 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, a continuing discussion of that matter. And I 186 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: think that he, uh, he's an important initiative him and 187 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: he's going to pursue it. I want to thank you both. 188 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: That's Kevin Johnson, the dean and a professor at U C. 189 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: Davis Law School and lead a GRAB or special project 190 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: attorney at the Immigrant Legal Resource Center in San Francisco. 191 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: Coming up on Bloomberg Law, A T and T is 192 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: trying to become one of the world's biggest media companies 193 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: by buying Time Warner with eighty five billion dollar deal. 194 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: We'll look at it. This is Bloomberg