1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. We spend time thinking 2 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: about those that we honor that have passed on to 3 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: the other side. One of the ways we do that 4 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: as a people is memorializing, and I guess probably for 5 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: most of us that involves a burial, that is setting 6 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: up a location perhaps where we can go and visit 7 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: time to time remember the people that surrounded us. People 8 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: have impacted our lives. But when it comes to death, 9 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: many times some things are hidden. We've heard that old phrase, 10 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: They're gonna take it to the grave with him. That's 11 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: where the practice of exhimation comes in. And today we're 12 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: gonna talk about Gloria Sadderfield. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 13 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: this his body backs. Joining me today is Jackie Howard, 14 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: executive producer Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackiet, I think 15 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: one of the things I'd like to explore with you 16 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: today is Gloria Sadderfield and her apparent pending exhimation. The 17 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: Glorious Sadderfield exhamation is coming about because of the investigation 18 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: into Alec Myrtle. So many deaths surrounding this prominent family 19 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 1: in South Carolina since the death of Maggie and Paul 20 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: Myrtle both were murdered outside their family home, discovered by 21 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: the father, Alex Murdle. Since then, he is in jail 22 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: charged with setting up a murder for hire on himself 23 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: to ensure that his remaining son would get millions in 24 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: life insurance policies that hit failed. Murdoch survived. He has 25 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: also been charged with stealing millions of dollars from his 26 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: law firm, and that included a four point three million 27 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: dollar ruling award for Glorious Sadderfield's children. Gloria Sadderfield, she 28 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: was the Murdoch housekeeper for over twenty years. She died 29 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: during a trip and fall accident in the Murdoch family home. Reportedly, 30 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:42,279 Speaker 1: Gloria Sadderfield fell over dogs on the outside brick stairs 31 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: of the home and hit her head. Paul and Maggie 32 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: Murdoch called nine one and tell the operator that that 33 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: while she is breathing, she is setting up she is mumbling, 34 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: she's not making much sense. E mts arrived. They take 35 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: Gloria Sadderfield to the hospital. She is in I see 36 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: you for a lengthy period of time and ultimately died 37 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: as a result of a stroke. Her cause of death 38 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: listed on the death certificate is natural. That's the first 39 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: thing that I want to talk about, Joe, How does 40 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: that happen? But now sled officials have asked for permission, 41 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: which has been given by the sadder Field next to Keen, 42 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: to exume her body. So many deaths centered on the 43 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: Murdoch family and now police want to review this death. 44 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: No autopsy was done on Gloria Sadderfield at the time 45 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: of her death, and as I just mentioned, her cause 46 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: of death was listed as natural. I can't imagine that 47 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: a trip and fall is a natural death. But let's 48 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: talk about exhamation first, and then we'll talk about how 49 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: it relates to Gloria. What happens when you exume a body. 50 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: It's an interesting world to enter into, and for me, 51 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: as a medical legal death investigator, it's one of the 52 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: most fascinating because you're you're actually burying witness to those 53 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: things that have long since been buried. And of course 54 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: that's variable depending upon the type of case you're talking about. 55 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: I've been involved in cases that go back sixty years 56 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: many times where bodies have been exhumed. And let's think 57 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: about the root of that word. The root. Actually it 58 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: comes from the Latin, which means x you know, out 59 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: of and then pumas, which actually means ground, so you're 60 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: removing the body from the ground. There's other terms that 61 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: are used that people here, disinter but that's kind of 62 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: separate to this. But it's a it's a tough thing 63 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: to do. I think that many people in general public 64 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: think that you can just you know, run out, maybe 65 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: grab an attorney and say, look, I want my loved 66 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: one disinterred or exhumed, or the court investigators even say 67 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: we want this body exhumed. The problem is is that 68 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: there is kind of a gatekeeper here, and that is 69 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: the judiciary. There's a judge that actually has to approve 70 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: this and or what is referred to literally as an 71 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: order of exhamation. It's not something you know, judges don't 72 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: want to be tied to this idea that folks can 73 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: just kind of willy nearly run around and crack open 74 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: graves and bring out the dead, because first off, you know, 75 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: it's as I said in my in my opening, you know, 76 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: we talked about honoring the dead, and they have a 77 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: sense of that. The judiciary always has because you know, 78 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: when you have people that will come along and they'll say, 79 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, while I have this question or that question, 80 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: the body needs to be exhumed. Well, you can't just 81 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: essentially throw that out there without logical purpose in what 82 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: you're doing, and that has to be presented. It has 83 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: to be presented by an attorney before the judge where 84 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: there is kind of this linear logic that takes place 85 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: where it can be explained very exactingly. Because keep this 86 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: in mind, every person that is buried at some point 87 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: in time has kind of passed through this memorane of 88 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: government approval on some level where they have decided either 89 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: by the corner, the medical examiner, the police, that this 90 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: body is good to go. We can have this individual 91 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: embombed and then placed into their grave, and so that 92 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: can be problematic. It's really hard to go into a 93 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: graveyard and essentially put shottle to soil. Some of those 94 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: regulations that you're talking about, Joe, have to do with embalming. 95 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: You can in some jurisdictions request for religious reasons or 96 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: by explaining your reasons for wanting this not be embalmed. 97 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: So how does that affect the exhamation, Joe, whether you're 98 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: embalmed or not significantly, because the process of body prep 99 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: of embalming, you know, and preparing the body, even clothing 100 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: the body, all the sorts of things in casketing the body, 101 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: I'll play an integral role in preservation and absent say, 102 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: for instance, embalming, the body is going to take a 103 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: normal course of decomposition and will begin to break down. 104 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: You know, people don't realize that when we die, and 105 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter where we are, the process of decomposition 106 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: actually begins in that moment. Once all cellular respiration has ceased, 107 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: we begin to break down. Now that might be at 108 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: a molecular level, you might not can appreciate it. So 109 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: time is of the essence. If there is some type 110 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: of religious prohibition against uh embalming, for instance, then those 111 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: involved in this will will have the body buried in 112 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: a very short order. And of course, you know, right 113 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: now I'm reflecting back to Tammy day Bell that probably 114 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: in recent memory, that's one of the most famous disinterminents 115 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: or exhamations that has taken place. In that case is 116 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: still pending. She had been buried for some time, and 117 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: but the key to her case was the fact that 118 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: she went from Idaho to Utah in order to cross 119 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: state lines, she had to be embalmed. So in that sense, 120 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: the investigators were very fortunate if there was any kind 121 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: of physical findings. But when you place somebody into the 122 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: ground unembalmed, and then there's a problem because all of 123 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: that evidentry, ever, anything that contains evidentry value, begins to 124 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: kind of wither away and and and nature just essentially 125 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: consumes it. So you're hoping that the body has been 126 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: involved and not just embalmed, but also to a high 127 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: professional standard. I've I've worked many cases of exhamation where 128 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: we've retrieved the body from the ground, taking the body 129 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 1: out of the casket, placed the body onto the ise 130 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: typsy table, and because the embalming was so poor, you 131 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: sit there and you kind of scratch your head and say, well, 132 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: why do you even bother in the first place, Why 133 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: do you even charge the family for this? Because you've 134 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: done a very bad job. But there are other cases 135 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: out there where the preservation is so re markable that 136 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: when you open that casket up and removed body, it 137 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: literally looks like this individual just passed away within the 138 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: last few days. An image comes to mind for me. 139 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: I had a gentleman that was a pastor that was 140 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: alleged to have been beaten by someone and the family 141 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: got an order of exhimation. And you know, he was 142 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: dressed all in white. He had a white jacket, white pants, 143 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: white shirt, even a white tie, white socks, and white 144 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: shoes on. And he had a single carnation that a 145 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: red carnation that had been placed in his lapel, and 146 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: everything on his body was perfectly intact. The only thing 147 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: that had changed was the status of the carnation and 148 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: it had kind of melded into the fabric where it 149 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: left this kind of dark, deep red stain. But she 150 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: could still appreciate the stem. So preservation is key here. 151 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: So what do you mean by it's gone wrong that 152 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: it was not well? What does that mean? Exactly? Just 153 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: like you know, in any kind of professional practice, there 154 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: are people that are really at the top of their 155 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: game when they're doing anything, and there are those that 156 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: might not pay a close of attention. Was the body 157 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: sufficiently preserved? And that means were the incisions made correctly 158 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: where the profusion items were placed into the body, and 159 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: then there was a successful embalming where you're seeing that 160 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: all of the tissues have been you know, touched if 161 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: you will, by the embalming fluid, and sometimes there's not 162 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: the best job that is done under those circumstances. And 163 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: so any area, let's say you have one portion of 164 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: the body that has been pretty sufficiently involved and then 165 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: another area where the embalming fluids, say, did not reach 166 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: that particular area, that area will be markedly decomposed and 167 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: compared to the rest of the body, and so that 168 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: generates a problem if you're looking at at this at 169 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: this exhumed body from a forensic standpoint, in that area 170 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: that has been touched by decomposition is key to your investigation, 171 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: then all is lost at that point. But again you 172 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: have groups of individuals that do and for the most part, 173 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: do find work. You know, it only comes to light 174 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: during exhamations relative to the quality of the preservation that's 175 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: left behind, because as we know, most bodies don't get exhumed. 176 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: Most people do not expect their body or the bodies 177 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: of their loved ones to be exhumed, and so that 178 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: can be problematic when that when you're faced with that. 179 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: The other issue here that you're faced with in in 180 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: burials is when the body is placed in the ground. 181 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: Remember when a casket is placed in the ground, you 182 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: don't simply just dig a hole and then drop the 183 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: casket in there. There's an entire process that takes place. 184 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: They actually put a crypt in the ground. And when 185 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: I say crip and I'm talking about a vault, it's 186 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: a large concrete box. And so the casket is not 187 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: just set into bare earth. Because the earth consumes everything, 188 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 1: it's not these caskets contrary to what you might have heard, 189 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: or not as resilient sometimes as advertised. So the casket 190 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: is actually lowered into this vault, this concrete vault that 191 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: has been placed in the whole prior to the casket 192 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: going in, and then a concrete lid is placed on 193 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: top of the vault after the casket has been placed inside. 194 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: So you've got this kind of double level of protection. 195 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: But one of the things that folks don't necessarily count on, 196 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: and I don't know that any of us do, is 197 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: the impact, say for instance, of groundwater, flooding, all these 198 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: sorts of things, and you can't it's really hard, if 199 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: you will, to defeat nature. Many times these vaults actually 200 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: fill up with water, and even if a body has 201 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: been sufficiently embombed. Then water is an another factor that 202 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: can impact the status of the body because with water 203 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: comes in all kinds of microbial life and those sorts 204 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: of things that embalming is not necessarily going to defeat, 205 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: and it will just kind of spur this decomposition on 206 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: it will just appear slightly different. And then you know, 207 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: you begin to think about, you know, the structure, the 208 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: structure of of the the quality of say a vault. 209 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: Has it been placed in there appropriately, does it cave 210 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: in on itself? There are any number of cases where 211 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: the vault itself was a poor quality in the earth 212 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: begins to kind of cave in around the thing, crushing 213 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: the casket. And of course when that happens, you're creating 214 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: these huge defects in this environment. So anything that's on 215 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: the outside is going to seek seek out those points 216 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: of entry relative to so any remains that are contained 217 00:13:50,800 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: in there can be compromised greatly. As you think about 218 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: burials and our our efforts to try to preserve are dead, 219 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: and it's kind of understandable that, uh, you've got a 220 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: lot of elements working against you. I mean everything from 221 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: from weather to poor mortuary practices to the wishes of families, 222 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: not warning bodies involved. And even something I didn't mention earlier, 223 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: you begin to think that there's actually tiny little insects 224 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: called coffin flies that can You can't defeat them, they 225 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: will actually make their way into the coffin. So there's 226 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: a lot running against you at this period of time 227 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: if you're a forensic scientist and you're trying to seek 228 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: out information about someone that has long since been dead 229 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: and buried. You were talking about the exhimation process, and 230 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: once the body is exhumed and moved into the morgue 231 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: for further autopsy investigation, about what the investigators the EMMY 232 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: would see. Obviously, continuing your discussion on quality versus ineffectual 233 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: embalming practices, what are the investigators going to see? And 234 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: I would have to imagine that because of the embalming, 235 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: that any toxicological findings are basically moot because there's no 236 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: blood and the body is filled with artificial fluids. Yeah, 237 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: and that that does certainly present a problem. And let's 238 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: keep in mind that these investigators, relative to Glorious Sadderfield, 239 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: are going into this case armed with a knowledge, And 240 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: keep in mind, this is a physician that has made 241 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: this determination that they're dealing with a natural death, and 242 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: I gotta go back just for a second kind of 243 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: correct something that you said, Jackie. You talked about that 244 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: the cause of death was natural, well natural, that it's 245 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: one of the five components of actual manners of death. 246 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: And this is kind of fascinating in this particular case 247 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: because in Glorious sadder Field's case, they ruled her death 248 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: as the manner as natural, but they listed the cause 249 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: as head trauma, and those two things don't marry up. 250 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: You don't naturally sustain head trauma. Logic has to be 251 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: applied to this. You know, my first stop along along 252 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: the continuum here as an investigator, it's certainly going to 253 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: be the medical records department where Glory unfortunately passed away. 254 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna want to see everything they have. And she's 255 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: been in the hospital for a couple of days by 256 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: the time she finally succumbs, I'm gonna want to see 257 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: any kind of imaging that means X ray, CT scans, 258 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: m R eyes, PET scans, it doesn't matter. I want 259 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: to see it. I want to see all of her 260 00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: toxicology because remember anything, any blood that was drawn at 261 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: that particular time and they ran hospital test on her. 262 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 1: That blood's gone. Now, you know, we got to think 263 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,239 Speaker 1: about this. In the process of embalming, you're going from 264 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: high to low. There's a gravitational you know, element to this. 265 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: When an individual is placed onto an embalming table, the 266 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: head is pitched up, feet are lower than the head. 267 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: And when this process starts of drawing out the blood 268 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: out of the body, it's being pushed out of the 269 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: body through the pressure of the embalming fluid coming in. 270 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: And you know, once the body is embombed, all of 271 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: that blood that would tell the tale if you if you, 272 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: if you will is now gone. You can't use it. 273 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: So in Miss Sadder Fields in case, the issue here 274 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: is what types of samples did they draw from her 275 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: when they finally got her to the hospital, and did 276 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: they run appropriate testing at that point in time, you know, 277 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: looking for anything any kind of of toxicological issues relative 278 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: to drugs that were on board, any kind of things 279 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: like cardiac enzymes what they call a CBC handle, all 280 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: those things that you standardly do in the hospital. What 281 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: was that telling us? Because now it's all gone at 282 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: this point in time, and so that creates a problem 283 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: for the investigators. And if they have an opportunity to 284 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: review all of that prior to doing the examination on 285 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: the exhumed body, they're gonna be much better armed. So 286 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: when investigators start there, I guess new autopsy, for lack 287 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: of a better way to say it, they're going to 288 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 1: see the injuries, the cleaned up injuries that Glorious Sadderfield has. 289 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: How is the preparation of the body for burial going 290 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: to impact that, because we do know they do body putty, 291 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: they do make up. Depending on where her injuries are, 292 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: these may or may not have had to be done. 293 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: So how how do they go about removing what they 294 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: can to get to the actual wounds. That's an excellent question, 295 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: And and here here's what will happen. First off, let's 296 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: go back to that nine one one call that Paul 297 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: and his mother were involved in. And one of the 298 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: things that Paul stated, of course he's now deceased, that 299 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: he stated in that nine one one call was that 300 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: she was bleeding from her head and where else her ear. 301 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: So when you're looking at this year, you know, for me, 302 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: if you have blood coming out of your ear, you're 303 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about kind of a fracture potentially of the 304 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: floor of the skull. It's not just simply going to 305 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: be the top of the head. So she's got perhaps 306 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: multiple fractures are what they refer to as communicating fracture. 307 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: That means that the that the blow that was sustained 308 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: creates such a fracture that the initial point of impact 309 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: creates this kind of cracking that goes all the way 310 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: through to the floor of the skull. So that's going 311 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: to be very important. But here's here's the problem. She 312 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: wasn't autopsy at the time you said new autopsy. There 313 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: hasn't been an original autopsy. Can you imagine this that 314 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: they're taking this woman who is sustained this kind of 315 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: trauma and in essentially burying her. And it's by no 316 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: fault of the of the family. You know, the families 317 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: don't do this every single day. Who is to be 318 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 1: held in account here, uh held responsible for this is 319 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: the hospital because it wasn't reported to the corner. The 320 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: corner can investigated death unless they have been summoned, unless 321 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: they have been notified. And to me, that's that's a 322 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: very very critical issue here that you have this multitude 323 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: of a learned medical individuals that know that this is 324 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: a trauma related death, and they didn't think to call 325 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: the corner because these these kinds of cases are mandatory 326 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: that they be reported. In her case, it was not so. Now, 327 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: when she's going to come in after they have exhumed 328 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: her body and they bring her back to the medical 329 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: examiner's office for the examination, and trust me, you're gonna 330 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: have all eyes on her body that that room will 331 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: be filled with all manner of people. You'll have forensic 332 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: scientists there, you might be and have a couple of 333 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: forensic pathologies there, and of course the police are gonna 334 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: have a tremendous presence there and they're going to go 335 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: through everything that they can as they remove her body 336 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: and try to appreciate these injuries. And one of the 337 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: things that you have to cut through the veil with 338 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: here is the fact that not only was their funeral 339 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: or mortuary preparation of her body, but there was also 340 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: medical intervention that took place prior to that. And let 341 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: me give you kind of a low down on this. 342 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: If you're talking about blunt force trauma, which we are, 343 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: that means that you're looking at a potential laceration to 344 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: the scalt well, if there's a laceration, the medical team 345 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: will essentially either staple or suiture that up. Well, that 346 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: has to be factored in to her treatment course. And 347 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: then if the funeral home did anything to that particular area, 348 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, as you mentioned applying any kind of of makeup, 349 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: the putty that you had mentioned, those sorts of things 350 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: to make her viewable, then that's also going to have 351 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: to That layer is also going to have to remove. 352 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: So you know, in my experience of working on exhumed 353 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: bodies and doing their autopsies, I don't know of any 354 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: other any other cases that take as much time as 355 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: exhumed bodies do. I can recall spending up to eight 356 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: to nine hours on a single body once you have it. 357 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: Because listen, once that body is out of the ground, 358 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: everybody's interested. You've got a lot of eyes on you 359 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: at that point in time, and so there will be 360 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: a lot of post mortal X rays that will be taken. 361 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: In this particular case, all kinds of imaging will go on. 362 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: It would not surprise me if maybe they had access 363 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: to a cat scan, that they would run the body 364 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: through the cat scan while they had the body and 365 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: all all of these little nuanced areas that they're going 366 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: to have to dig into, because once they're complete with this, 367 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: the judge is going to require that they re inter 368 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: the body at that time. They're not just gonna leave 369 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: her there, so they're gonna have to put her back 370 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: into her casket and back into her burial space, and 371 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: so they have to capture as much information as they 372 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: possibly can at that moment in time. You said that 373 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: the wounds would have been sutured closed at the hospital 374 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: after her death. Isn't that going to degrade the wound area? 375 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that going to change the topography of 376 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: the head of what actually happened. How does that impact 377 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: you being able to tell what happened? Yeah, it does. 378 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: And this is you've got a couple of elements working here. 379 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: First off, you have medical intervention, which I had mentioned. 380 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: And when these these edges which are gonna be very jagged, 381 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: Remember we're talking about blunt force trauma. This is not 382 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: a sharp force event. They're gonna be very jagged, and 383 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: so you're going to have and people can, you know, 384 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: think back to their own personal experiences where they've had 385 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: some kind of impact injury on their body that required suturing. 386 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: They're not clean and neat, and so it's going to 387 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: take this kind of what we refer to as a 388 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: curvilinear and yeah, that's a real word that's used in 389 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: forensic science, a curvilinear pattern many times. And if she's 390 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: been struck multiple times, which I don't know if she 391 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: was or not, you might have multiple lacerations along the way, 392 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: and all of those are going to have to be 393 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: suited up, because remember before this became a forensics case, 394 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: this is a medical case. You're trying to save her life. 395 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: So they're going to go to any means they can possibly. 396 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: I think all of us would want them to to 397 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: try to make sure that she is going to survive. 398 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: And unfortunately she didn't. So it's going to change the 399 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: initial appearance as opposed to if we had a body 400 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: of some unfortunate person that had beaten to death out 401 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: on the street. You could appreciate that readily. You know 402 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: where that body is taken directly to the Mulligan examined. 403 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: But now not only do you have the su train 404 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: that's taking place, you potentially have some healing that may 405 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: have taken place as well. And what does that mean 406 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: for us, because one of the key things we're gonna 407 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: be looking for here are going to be evidence of 408 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the soft tissues of the skull and also 409 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: overlying what we call the external table of the skull 410 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: and any kind of pattern that may have been there. 411 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: Let's say, you know, they're saying that when miss Adderfield 412 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: felt that, and it's kind of non specific at this point, 413 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: but when she fell, she was on a set of 414 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: stairs and they were external stairs, So we can kind 415 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: of put forth our supposition is that they're either brick 416 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: or they're either concrete. Either way, it's a hard surface 417 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: that you're going to strike. If there are edges there, 418 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: you could appreciate a pattern of an edge, for instance, 419 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: if it's blunted, say like kind of a curved concrete step, 420 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: that's going to have a completely different appearance and it's 421 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: going to be very rich and say an abraided or 422 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: an abrasion that might be there where that point of 423 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: impact is. All of that's gonna be compromised at this 424 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: point in time. So they're gonna be heavily reliant upon 425 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: all of the anti mortan records, that is, those records 426 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: that were generated prior to her death, and then they 427 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: have to factor in the treatment course along with They're 428 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: gonna they would literally, and I have to say this, 429 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: they're gonna have to bring in probably the mortuary science 430 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: person that tended to her body and question them at length. 431 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: You have to tell us specifically what you did to 432 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: her remains when you received them from the hospital, because 433 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: we have to know what you saw at that point 434 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: in time, did you change anything at all? And they 435 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: should have a record of their preparation at that point 436 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: in time. And then what you're left with essentially is 437 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: what comes up out of the burial. You know, what 438 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: can you observe that can be tied back to a 439 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: specific point of origin relative to this impact injury that 440 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: she is has sustained. This is going to be a 441 00:26:50,200 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: very very involved examination. And granted, exclamations don't don't take 442 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: place every single day, but there have been enough of 443 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: them over the years that have actually changed the course 444 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: of cases that have gotten people off the streets that 445 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: committed horrible crimes that they thought that they had gotten 446 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: away with. And you know, Gloria Sadderfield's case is an 447 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: example of having to go back in and take a look, 448 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: and they're right on the edge of this right now. 449 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: But there's a few of the cases that I think 450 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: that we can examine. Wouldn't you agree, Jackie? I would 451 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: in those cases obviously Tammy Day Bell, which we still 452 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: don't have the resolution of this yet. You mentioned that earlier. 453 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: Let's also talk about Kathleen Savio and Shelley Danishchevski. But 454 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you first, Joe, who does the 455 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: atop the on an exhumed body, obviously performing an autopsy? 456 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: Is a pathologist? Are there pathologists who specialize in just exhumations? 457 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: You know, I can't imagine if you're just looking at 458 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 1: from a practical standpoint, there's they're not forensic pathologists out 459 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: there that essentially make their living doing exhimations. You probably 460 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: start to death that was the case. However, I think 461 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: that they're depended upon how how skilled the pathologist is. 462 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: People have advanced skill sets in this area, and you know, 463 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: obviously the more autopsies you're involved in, the higher the 464 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: likelihood is that you're going to come across an opportunity 465 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: to do an exhumation case. What I do know, and 466 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: this is quite fascinating, is that the medical legal community 467 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: in South Carolina and just just let's sink your teeth 468 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: into this, just for a second, has been left completely out, 469 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: completely out of glorious adder Field case period. Now, they've 470 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: been involved in all these their desks that kind of 471 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: swirl around the Murdoc family, but her case in particular 472 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: was not even on the radar of you know, of 473 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: of of the medical legal community. I'm talking about the corners, 474 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: the medical examiners, the forensic pathologists in state of South Carolina. 475 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: So I can tell you this about this particular case. 476 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: First off, the corner for this particular county is gonna 477 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: be front and center in this They're going to request 478 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: that the forensic pathologists that they normally work with do 479 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: this examination, and it would not surprise me at all 480 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: if they bring in consulting forensic pathologist as well, so 481 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: that they've got another set of eyes on this particular case, 482 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: because this thing is so very complex that you need 483 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: as many professionals on this case to take a look 484 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: at it with. Of course, the primary medical examiner is 485 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: going to be the one that is in charge the 486 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 1: primary forensic pathologists, but they very well might have others 487 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: that are in the room. Just to make sure that 488 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: they get everything, because time is of the essence. Let's 489 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: look at what might actually come out of this and 490 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: any other exhimation. We know. In the Tammy Day Bell case, 491 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: they were looking for evans that she had been killed 492 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: or poisoned by her then husband. This investigation into Gloria 493 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: Sadderfield because the manner of death was considered natural, but 494 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: she had head trauma as a cause in relation to 495 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: all the other deaths that seemed to be circling around 496 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: the Murdoch family. Now, in the Kathleen Savio case, she 497 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: was the third wife of Chicago police officer Drew Peterson. 498 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: The investigation into Kathleen Savio's death started when Drew Peterson's 499 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: fourth wife disappear. Now, Kathleen Savio died in her bathtub 500 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: of a head wound. She had, I believe a one 501 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: inch dash in her head, and it was surmised that 502 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: she hit her head, fell into the bathtub and drowned. 503 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: But the problem was the bathtub was dry. Investigator's surmise 504 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: that well, okay, the water drained out, but we find 505 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: that wasn't the case. Jokes, So investigators exhumed Kathleen Savio's 506 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: body what did they find. Yeah, well, when when they 507 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, they didn't think that this you know, kind 508 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: of met and muster if you will. And these dry 509 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: drowning cases are real head scratchers to begin with. One 510 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: of the first things you're gonna look for at autopsy 511 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: on somebody that you are actually opining had drowned is 512 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: that the water might be out of the tub. But 513 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 1: guess what doesn't change. That's the weight of the lungs. 514 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: If an individual has essentially inhalated water into their lungs, 515 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: the lungs will be heavy and congested more so than normal. 516 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: So I think that that would be my first question. Yeah, 517 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: she might have had a head injury that you're listing 518 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: as the fatal event, But how did you arrive at 519 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: this drowning proposition that you put or But when they 520 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: finally did exhume Umsavio's body, one of the things that 521 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: they determined was the fact that she didn't just have 522 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: one one blow to the back of her head. There 523 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: was one, you know, significant lacerated area that initial point 524 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: of contact, and I'm sure that it stood out. But 525 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: you know, as they were going through this case, they 526 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: they suddenly determined that they had at least six or 527 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: maybe even seven other points of impact on her head 528 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: that were not that we're not lacerated, but they had 529 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: these deep bruises that were there. So you know, you 530 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: can understand, I think and and certainly are our listeners 531 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: can that if you fall one time, you strike your head, 532 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: that's understandable, but you're not going to fall six to 533 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: seven times, generating each individual bruising, you know. And in conclusion, 534 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: that's that's how they wound up determining that this was 535 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: not as advertised, this is not an an accidental death. 536 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: They knew just sently based upon these injuries that they 537 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: discovered at the autopsy, per the exhimation that she had 538 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: been struck multiple times. And this is a fine example 539 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: of what can be left behind even after she had 540 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: been embalmed and buried. The one thing about the particularly 541 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: hemorrhage that you can never get past in a case 542 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: like this is it it doesn't disappear. Do you know why? Well, 543 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: because when you know, we were talking about how when 544 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: the embalming fluid is traversing through the body, right, it's 545 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: it's it's essentially going through our vascular system, it's going 546 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: through the veins, and arteries and all these sorts of things. 547 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: But when blunt force takes place and you generate a hemorrhage, 548 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: a point of hemorrhage or or bruise, if you will, 549 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: the reason it bruises is because that little capillary bed area, 550 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: that specific area has been compromised. It's been ruptured, and 551 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: so now it's out into what's referred to I'm gonna 552 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: say this very very slowly, it's called the interstitial tissue. 553 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: You're literally bleeding out into the soft tissue surrounding that 554 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: point of impact. So the embalming fluid is not going 555 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: to eradicate that it will still be there. And didn't 556 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: that fascinating with Saba's case because they still saw evidence 557 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: of this after she had been dead and buried for 558 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: some time. Shelley Denishevsky's case is very similar in that 559 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: Denishevsky was found by her daughter in the bathtub and 560 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: it was thought that she had slipped, fallen and hit 561 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: her head. Danishevsky was not autopsied either, because she and 562 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: her family are Orthodox Jews. So as this case progressed, 563 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: investigators requested the exhimation of Danishevsky's body and they found 564 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: something totally different that it was not caused by hitting 565 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: her head and drowning. Shelley's death was caused by a 566 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: net compression, meaning what well, that there was direct pressure 567 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: apply to her neck, and therefore, you know this is 568 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: going to be consistent with the say, for instance, someone 569 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: pinning her to the floor and pressing down on her neck, 570 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: perhaps a strangulation of some type where you're actually applying 571 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: pressure directly by the palm of the hand. You know, 572 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: any any number of things can create a net compression. 573 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: But we do know this. Again, You're back to this 574 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: issue someone slipping and falling in the bathtub, and you 575 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: you want to try to honor the family's wishes as 576 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: best you possibly can. But this again goes to show 577 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: if someone has sustained trauma, it needs to be further investigated, 578 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: because if you cannot validate the origin of that trauma specifically, 579 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: I mean really scientifically validated, it's gonna wind up in 580 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: a problem going down the road, just like it did 581 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: in this case. I've actually been involved in another case 582 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: similar to this that involved our Orthodox community in the 583 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: New Orleans area when I was there, and again that 584 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 1: case slipped under the radar and it turned out later 585 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: to be Hamsa. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 586 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: body Backs.