WEBVTT - Sessions Recuses Himself After Calls for Resignation (Audio) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.000 Joining us is Jennifer Rogers, Executive director of the Center 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:08.119 for the Advancement of Public Integrity. Jennifer, perjury requires a 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:12.080 statement under oath that is false, material, or significant, and 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.479 that the speaker knows is false. Does sessions testimony fit 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.959 the legal criteria for perjury? I don't think so. I 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.680 think the question and answer are just a little too 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.160 ambiguous to make a perjury count out. It's just a 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.520 very very hard statue to prove, and in this case, 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.400 it's just not a clean enough question and answer to 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.919 be able to say that for sure he knew that 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.640 he was being untruthful when he answered, Well, Jennifer, is 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:42.559 is that the only question here though, whether or not 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.839 he committed perjury or because a lot of people in 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:50.680 Congress at least seem to be upset with um the veracity, 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:53.640 whether or not it's a crime. Well, there are a 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.560 whole host of issues about whether the Attorney General was 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.440 misleading Congress and if so, whether he should resigning. And 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.280 you know, there's a false statement statute also that could 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.000 be applied here. There's even a misdemeanor statute for misleading 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.960 Congress that was used back in the Watergate times. UM 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.840 So I'm really just talking about perjury because it is 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:15.959 such a hard statute to prove. But there are a 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.520 whole host of other issues that you know, become a 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.200 little bit more of a political issue than a legal issue. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.880 And so what what you know, let's say that you 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:30.119 can't prove perjury here, what what could Congress look at 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.840 if they wanted to investigate what is going on here 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.480 and what has happened here? Well, on the legal side, 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.920 you know, there's really just perjury and false statements, neither 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.039 of which I think is going to be actionable here 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.840 unless additional information came out. Um. And then there's the 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.960 misdemeanor about misleading Congress. That one is a possibility. Uh. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.160 And then of course there're a whole, a whole realm 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.600 of non legal actions, right. They could continue to investigate 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.680 him and you know, seek his resignation and and other 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:04.600 other means of removal other than criminal convictions under the 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.520 legal system, But as far as the law is concerned, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.960 the options are pretty limited, at least on the evidence 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.120 we know now, unless something else comes out. So what 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:18.760 about contempt of Congress proceedings? UM? I think could certainly 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.600 UM initiate something like that um. You know, the problem 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.880 is we're dealing with a Republican Congress that doesn't seem 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.240 so far to be bowing to pressure to go too 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.600 far into this. Um. So, you know, all the possibilities 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.160 kind of on the political side are a little bit 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.640 sketchy given the Republican leadership in Congress, but that is 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.359 a possibility if they were willing to take that up. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.520 Jennifer just pushing to pass having Democrats pushed to pass 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.919 a contempt of Congress resolution could force him to resign. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.760 It's certainly there's been pressure to other attorney generals in 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.240 the past that have pushed them to resign. And isn't 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.880 there also a factor of the Attorney General being the 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:09.680 top law enforcement officer in the nation and being held 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:14.680 to a strict standard. Well, certainly the Attorney General should 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.040 be held to the highest of ethical standards, you know. 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.720 But what he's saying is, you know, I wasn't lying. 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.360 It just was the question was asked, and I wasn't 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.800 thinking about this other contact that I had had in 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.720 a different context. So at least as far as what 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.760 Attorney General Sessions is claiming now, he is you know, 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.160 being uh, he is acting in the in the highest standards. 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.200 So you know, I'm not sure that he would disagree 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.160 with the fact that he should be held at that standard. 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.840 But he says that he is um, and you know, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.360 it's it's it's kind of hard to disprove it unless again, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.920 there's evidence to come out. I mean, surely if there 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:50.920 were a recording of the meeting where it was clear 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:55.280 they were talking about the campaign and Russian influence in 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.920 the election, then I think it would be more clear 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.040 that he knew he wasn't telling the roots um when 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.600 he said he didn't know about any communications of that nature. UM. 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.320 But short of that, you know, I think he just says, look, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.600 it was a little bit of a disconnect. I was 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.480 thinking about one thing and and you know, other people 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.480 are thinking about other things, and that's where we are. Well, 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.719 so he's now accused himself from the investigation, saying that 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.279 he that you know, he's not going to take any 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:25.680 part in them at this point. Now that we found 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.760 out about these things, you know, it raises it's raised 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:30.760 a number of questions for people about why he didn't 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:35.680 recuse earlier, and is recusal sufficient? But I wonder if 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:37.240 he really didn't do if he says he didn't do 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.080 anything wrong here. Does he really need to be recused? Well, 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.760 I think he does, Um, And the reason is that, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.240 first of all, recusal, you should have a very low 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.120 bar for recusal. If there's really any suggestion at all 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.839 that you have a personal conflict or that you personally 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.840 will be brought into the scope of an investigation, then 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.039 you really should recuse um. And so I think it 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.040 it was the right decision. I think it didn't happen 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.520 earlier because he was just trying to fend off the 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.839 growing storm about it, and you know, finally when it 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.440 became a bit of a roar, then he did say 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.040 he would recuse. So the Deputy Attorney General will will 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.560 handle the investigation, and you know, we'll wait to see 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.840 where that goes, of course, but ultimately I think it 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.400 was right to step away. You know, high level federal 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.440 officials need to not only avoid actual conflicts, but the 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.520 appearance of conflicts, and so you know, ultimately that was 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.280 he did the right thing. Jennifer. He said he's going 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:37.400 to correct the record, but some senators are criticizing him 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.880 for his failure to clarify his response in written testimony 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:46.080 to the committee. Afterwards, and he had a lot of 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.880 opportunity to clarify his response once he realized what was 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:55.080 happening with Michael Flynn and all the different the investigations 0:05:55.120 --> 0:06:02.640 into the alleged Russia connection. So is at incriminating, you know, 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.640 it's hard to say. I mean, again, he's maintaining that 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.200 the context that he had were in a totally different context. 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.600 They were context he had because he was a senator 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:14.640 or not because he was kind of part of the 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.679 Trump world. So you know, he could just say, listen, 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.599 I had a separation there. You know, I didn't have 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.960 any contact in connection with the Trump things that I 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.800 was doing, and so I didn't feel any need to 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.000 correct the record in that respect. Um, you know, he's 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.279 he's got that division. He's maintaining that division. If something 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.599 comes out that shows that that's not an actual division, 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.720 then we'll have more to talk about. But I think 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.359 he just kind of came up with this, you know, 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.839 dividing line in his mind, and he's he's sticking to 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.080 it in always. Let me just tell you some of 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.920 the events. Let's just go through a chronology and then 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.520 we can put into context what what where he was 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:58.479 at perhaps on March seventeenth, he discussed Trump's foreign policy positions, 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.960 including there being no re He's in for the US 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.599 and Russia to be at loggerheads at a meeting on 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:08.279 July eighteen, the Russian ambassador approached him after a Heritage 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:13.080 Foundation panel that focused on Russia's incursions into Ukraine and Georgia. 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.360 On July thirty one, in an appearance on CNN, he 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.720 defended Trump's position on reaching out to Russia. And then 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.960 September eight you have him meeting with that Russian ambassador 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.960 that had approached him in his Senate office. In light 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:32.760 of that, and as we see some of his aids 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.440 perhaps being called before the committee, doesn't it seem as 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.920 if there is and he does have an involvement with 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:45.080 the Russia issue. Well, look, I mean he certainly could. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.680 I think the problem is we just don't have any 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.120 evidence other than what he is saying about what happened 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.880 during that meeting, um so, and you need that kind 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.520 of evidence to bring charges. So whatever it looks like 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.680 politically and the pressure that's on him to resign or 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.480 what have you, that's kind of one side of things. 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.840 But you know, what I've been thinking about really is 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:09.640 more on the legal side of things. What evidence you 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.400 have to have to bring an actual criminal charge, and 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.720 you know, innuendo and suggestive chronologies really just aren't enough. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.040 So without evidence that what happened in that meeting really 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.960 was related to the campaign or the election and not 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.480 to just general Senate stuff, UM, you know, I don't 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.240 think you have it. And you know, I'm even mindful 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.360 of the commentary I've seen recently that says that Senators 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:38.160 don't typically meet with ambassadors, UM, just to talk about 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.280 general Senate stuff. It's not the sort of thing you 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.120 would do to meet with a foreign adversary. UM. So 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.760 I'm not sure what they did talk about or how 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.520 it can be justified. But without evidence that that's not 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.600 true and what they actually we're doing was talking about 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.280 election or campaign related things, it's not solid enough to 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.040 bring a criminal case. Well, you know, you're going to 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:04.400 have Justice Department lawyers and presumably the FBI now investigating this. UM. 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.040 The Attorney General recused. You know, the White House has 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.640 been very outspoken about UM, all of these issues and 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.960 their position on them, and some have called for a 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.200 you know, a special prosecutor or investigator to take a 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.320 look at these allegations and that hasn't happened. Do you think, Jennifer, 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.280 that you know, people can have some faith in the 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.400 Justice Department to actually do this investigation given the Attorney 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.000 General's involvement in what's coming from the White House, or 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.680 how ethically should people be thinking about what the Justice 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.680 Department is about to do? You know, I think we 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:42.320 can have confidence in what's going to happen. UM. I 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.839 was lucky enough to work with Jim Comey when he 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.000 was the U. S Attorney in Manhattan, and I have 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.199 the highest faith in his abilities to be independent and 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.960 impartial and to take the investigation where the evidence leads. 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.320 And I've heard heard also very good things about Rod Rosenstein, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.319 who's due to come in after confirmation and as the 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.959 Deputy Attorney General. I don't know him personally, but I've 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.240 heard good things about his um, his ethics, So you know, 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.840 I do think that these are people who are charged 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.720 with upholding the law and for investigating and and following 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.480 where the evidence leads. So I do think that we 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:19.840 can have confidence that, uh, if there is evidence to 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:24.200 suggest that there was a lie or even misleading evidence 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.360 put before the Congress, that UM that that they will 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.000 go with that and and ultimately do whatever is appropriate 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:30.920 with that information.