Speaker 1: Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the
Speaker 1: podcast that looks at the future and says, by rocket
Speaker 1: to the moon, by airplane to the rocket, by taxi
Speaker 1: to the airport, by front door to the taxi, by
Speaker 1: throwing back the blanket hanging down the legs. I'm Jonvin Strickland,
Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Vocoma, and throughout McCormick. That's that they might
Speaker 1: be giants. Quote. It's a great song. I'll play it
Speaker 1: for you after the show. All right, So today we
Speaker 1: wanted to talk We're still talking about space exploration. If
Speaker 1: you heard our previous podcast, we were talking about the
Speaker 1: the benefits and risks of manned space exploration versus unmanned
Speaker 1: space exploration. And today we want to talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the idea of colonization, not just exploring space,
Speaker 1: but finding other places where we could live and do
Speaker 1: science and stay there for prolonged time periods of time,
Speaker 1: not just for a short visit and then pop right back.
Speaker 1: You get a good butt groove going on your space couch, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you need to exactly get so that that you know,
Speaker 1: you can sit there and essentially say it's somewhere like
Speaker 1: this place is mine. Not only do I have a flag,
Speaker 1: check out the butt. It's not gonna fit your butt,
Speaker 1: I guarantee it. Um. Yeah. So, uh, you know, the
Speaker 1: can space become home? That's really the question we're asking.
Speaker 1: And the two main candidates that that I think most
Speaker 1: people think about when we talk about colonization, at least
Speaker 1: in the foreseeable future, like within the next few decades,
Speaker 1: would be either Earth's Moon or Mars. Those seem to
Speaker 1: be the two leading candidates when you agree so well,
Speaker 1: they're you know, cooler than mercury, less totally poisonous than venus. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Okay, So, as we talked about in our
Speaker 1: last podcast, Uh, it's gonna be mega dangerous to go there.
Speaker 1: So because space wants to kill you, Yes, space wants
Speaker 1: to kill you. Anytime you leave Earth, you're you're taking
Speaker 1: a big risk. So what are the benefits? Why would
Speaker 1: people want to create colonies on the Moon and Mars? Well,
Speaker 1: I can I can give you some overview about the Moon. Uh, specifically,
Speaker 1: I mean NASA was looking at the possibility of going
Speaker 1: back to the Moon and in fact ended up having
Speaker 1: a project in two thousand six called why the Moon?
Speaker 1: You know, why why would we go back there? And
Speaker 1: they came up with more than They actually asked people
Speaker 1: all around the world, like they were asking leading scientists
Speaker 1: and engineers as well as other people you know, thinkers, authors,
Speaker 1: all sorts, not to say that authors don't think all
Speaker 1: that often. Uh so, I'm the son of an author.
Speaker 1: It's just a joke at my dad. So they asked
Speaker 1: all these folks like, you know, why should we go
Speaker 1: back to the moon, and ended up compiling a list
Speaker 1: of over two d reasons or more than two hundred reasons,
Speaker 1: I should say, and uh, but the they generally fell
Speaker 1: into certain major category. Um. So for the Moon specifically,
Speaker 1: they said that they talked about just the idea of
Speaker 1: having a human settlement beyond Earth, this idea that this
Speaker 1: is another frontier that we can explore and uh and
Speaker 1: make a home on, and and that that's a powerful
Speaker 1: idea all on its own out the door, and that
Speaker 1: that could apply not just to the Moon, obviously, that
Speaker 1: could apply to any anybody that's out in space, but
Speaker 1: specifically they were referring to the Moon in this case.
Speaker 1: They also said that you could pursue scientific study to
Speaker 1: answer questions about the history of the Earth, the history
Speaker 1: of our solar system, and the history of the universe
Speaker 1: and what our place is within that context. You know,
Speaker 1: these are big questions, and sometimes to get perspective, you've
Speaker 1: gotta leave stuff behind, you know, like our planet. And
Speaker 1: we could learn more about the actual history of the Moon,
Speaker 1: like how was the moon form. We've got lots of
Speaker 1: theories on it, but this would help us, uh test
Speaker 1: those theories and see if the theories seem to hold
Speaker 1: true based upon the observations we can make their Beyond that,
Speaker 1: they said that you could test technologies, systems, and processes
Speaker 1: that we'd use for deeper space exploration and support future
Speaker 1: missions to other places like Mars and beyond. So, in
Speaker 1: other words, used the Moon as a test bed so
Speaker 1: that we can learn oh well, you know, we've created
Speaker 1: the best practices that we need to make space exploration
Speaker 1: as safe and uh and and scientifically profitable as possible.
Speaker 1: H Yeah, not just a test bed, but it would
Speaker 1: be an important staging point for actual missions, right sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're talking about one six the gravity of Earth, so
Speaker 1: from yeah, yeah, compared to Earth, it is far easier
Speaker 1: to get a vehicle off the surface of the Moon
Speaker 1: that it is on Earth. So if you were able
Speaker 1: to ship materials to the Moon and then put those
Speaker 1: materials together and then uh and then launch a ship
Speaker 1: from the Moon, then you could use as a staging
Speaker 1: ground a launch pad really, so you could use to
Speaker 1: go on deeper space exploration missions, whether those are manned
Speaker 1: or unmanned. You can even you know, launch unmanned missions
Speaker 1: from the mood if you wanted to um beyond that.
Speaker 1: It would provide a challenging objective that would require global
Speaker 1: cooperation and participation in a peaceful way. In other words,
Speaker 1: this is something that goes well beyond the capabilities of
Speaker 1: any one nation. It would be a global effort. And
Speaker 1: the idea being that if you can create a challenge,
Speaker 1: a task that requires cooperation on this global scale, So
Speaker 1: we're talking about a peaceful effort where we can get
Speaker 1: some cooperation around the entire world to meet this incredible
Speaker 1: challenge at hand. That's so that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that that programs like the Apollo are are are allouded for,
Speaker 1: you know, for even just within a single nation, bringing
Speaker 1: people together and making people figure out how to how
Speaker 1: to work, you know, between governments and corporations, and although
Speaker 1: the Apollo program certainly has, it's also other the other
Speaker 1: political side, which was it was part of the space race,
Speaker 1: where it was almost a afrontation confrontational thing between the
Speaker 1: United States and the Soviet Union. Maybe it's right. I
Speaker 1: think I've read those people interpreting it in a in
Speaker 1: a kind of generous light, saying that the space race
Speaker 1: gave us a way to um to express our sort
Speaker 1: of international competitive instinct in a way that was not
Speaker 1: violent like the the the Olympics, but with a more
Speaker 1: you know, nuclear threat behind it. As about to say,
Speaker 1: because when you think about it, the other side of
Speaker 1: the space race is saying, hey, I can put this
Speaker 1: thing into orbits, you better, but I can put it
Speaker 1: into Moscow or you know, Washington, d C. Depending upon
Speaker 1: which part you're in. So, but this would be a
Speaker 1: way of saying, instead of it being one pitting one
Speaker 1: nation against another in a race to get to a
Speaker 1: finish line, it's more saying, this is a challenge that's
Speaker 1: worthy of us. Let's band together and meet it. So
Speaker 1: it's kind of an attempt to take that same sort
Speaker 1: of spirit of of competition, but instead of working against
Speaker 1: each other. We're working against a an external challenge that
Speaker 1: is pretty significant. Um, the sheer scientific findings. We were
Speaker 1: talking a little bit about those in the previous episode.
Speaker 1: But but but you know, the the necessities that human
Speaker 1: beings have and in those kind of environments, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's up on the International Space Station station they've
Speaker 1: got a water filtration system that can effectively recycle up
Speaker 1: to all onboard water, including your urine, sweat and tears. Um,
Speaker 1: like the water vapor you breathe out could end up
Speaker 1: being recycled. Yeah, yeah, which you know is a little
Speaker 1: bit water world. But but but other than that, is
Speaker 1: is a terrific scientific advancement. Yeah yeah, So I mean
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, the things that would become a
Speaker 1: necessity for us just to make this work could end
Speaker 1: up in you know, inspiring technology or directly spawning technology
Speaker 1: here on Earth that benefits everybody in some other way. Um.
Speaker 1: And and the only way you really get that benefit
Speaker 1: is if you really back the initiative to trying to
Speaker 1: do this. Beyond that, it also ex band's Earth's economic
Speaker 1: sphere to the Moon. So like in other words, we
Speaker 1: actually we literally increase our potential wealth by including the
Speaker 1: Moon as part of that, and you might think like, well,
Speaker 1: what the heck is on the Moon? What's good to
Speaker 1: get there? Well, m real estate as a steel right now,
Speaker 1: But you know about that guy who's Yes, I do,
Speaker 1: I do know about that guy who's selling it. But um,
Speaker 1: if you're listening and you're tempted to buy a plot
Speaker 1: of land on the Moon, don't do it. No, it's
Speaker 1: a shady deal. Yeah, the claimed will probably not be
Speaker 1: on her right but but there is stuff on the
Speaker 1: Moon that could be very useful. There was a discovery
Speaker 1: that the regules, that's the the dirt essentially the soil
Speaker 1: that is on the Moon. Um, it's also what we
Speaker 1: call really any any extra terrestrial dirt. Yeah, Mars has
Speaker 1: regules as well, but the regul on the Moon contains
Speaker 1: helium three in concentration is much greater than you would
Speaker 1: find here on Earth. And helium, aside from being completely wasted,
Speaker 1: as a children's toy and awesome way to make your
Speaker 1: voice sound funny. Yeah you sound awesome. Yeah, I sure do.
Speaker 1: You should do a whole episode on helium. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you mean literally, like we're on helium while we're doing
Speaker 1: the episode. It would have to be short because we
Speaker 1: could asphyxiate. But anyway, Uh, yeah, well, I think what
Speaker 1: you were going to say is that helium has lots
Speaker 1: of scientific uses, right. For example, you can use helium
Speaker 1: to to to cool things. You know, use liquid helium,
Speaker 1: you can use that to to cool uh, scientific equipment
Speaker 1: that needs to be close to absolute Yeah, helium three
Speaker 1: can get things within a few thousands of a kelvin,
Speaker 1: like a single less than one kelvin. Zero kelvin is
Speaker 1: absolute zero. That means there is no molecular movement. Helium
Speaker 1: three potentially useful infusion. It is also potentially useful for
Speaker 1: a fusion. Now, helium three because it's non radioactive, means
Speaker 1: that you could use that as a potential fuel infusion
Speaker 1: reactors and not have to worry about dealing with radiation.
Speaker 1: And you could essentially starts to produce uh protons as
Speaker 1: its byproduct. But you can control protons with a magnetic field.
Speaker 1: You can actually contain protons that way, So while it's
Speaker 1: giving off protons at high speeds during these fusion reactions,
Speaker 1: you could harness the energy and minimize any risk relatively
Speaker 1: easy if you have enough helium. And when I say
Speaker 1: relatively This is still an incredibly complicated thing, but it's
Speaker 1: access to that helium would make this much easier than
Speaker 1: it is right now. It's also important for detecting things
Speaker 1: like neutrons, which you might not think is that important
Speaker 1: unless you happen to be checking for any sort of
Speaker 1: illegal smuggled plute plutonium which gives off neutrons as it decays.
Speaker 1: So it's a very effective detection method for for things
Speaker 1: like neutrons. But we don't have a lot of it
Speaker 1: here on Earth. The Moon has lots of it from
Speaker 1: what we can tell. Uh it may be that shady
Speaker 1: parts of the Moon have a lot more of it
Speaker 1: than the sunny parts of the Moon, But at any rate,
Speaker 1: there is the possibility that we could end up using
Speaker 1: the Moon as a resource for helium three. And then
Speaker 1: there is the whole idea of inspiring future generations of
Speaker 1: students to really focus on STEM fields so that you know,
Speaker 1: all the science and technology, engineering and math disciplines that
Speaker 1: could benefit from you know, students just flooding it because
Speaker 1: there's this this initiative to build a colony on the Moon.
Speaker 1: All of these are big reasons, and of course, like
Speaker 1: I said, they listed more than two hundred total, and
Speaker 1: they all kind of fell into these broad categories. So
Speaker 1: that's sort of why we would want to look at
Speaker 1: the moon. Um. And now what about why we would
Speaker 1: want to go to Mars. A lot of the reasons
Speaker 1: are going to be similar. Things like the inspiring the
Speaker 1: generation of people. I mean, that's clearly going to be
Speaker 1: play a part. Uh. Science and technology would obviously play
Speaker 1: a part share uh, and also it would again be
Speaker 1: another global effort. Mars is a that's it is not
Speaker 1: a small task either. That keep in mind the Moon
Speaker 1: is about two hundred thirty eight thousand, nine hundred miles
Speaker 1: away or three four thousand, four hundred kilometers from Earth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Mars when it's at its closest point. Keep in mind
Speaker 1: that the orbital path of Earth and Mars means that
Speaker 1: sometimes they are quite far away. Yeah, they can sides
Speaker 1: of the Sun. Yeah, which means that Mars is further
Speaker 1: away from Earth than the Sun would be. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: at its closest point, it is about thirty three million,
Speaker 1: nine d twenty seven thousand miles away or around fifty
Speaker 1: four million, six hundred thousand kilometers and its furthest point
Speaker 1: it is two hundred forty nine million, two hundred thousand
Speaker 1: miles away or four hundred one million kilometers on average
Speaker 1: is about a hundred thirty nine million, eight hundred thousand
Speaker 1: miles or two or twenty five million kilometers. So it's
Speaker 1: much further away than the Moon, and that that presents
Speaker 1: one of the many, many challenges when you compare the two.
Speaker 1: Not to say that either would be a cake walk,
Speaker 1: but there are some extra considerations you have to make
Speaker 1: depending upon which place you're choosing. Sure as as a
Speaker 1: launch pad, you know it could when when it's when
Speaker 1: it's further out than Earth two or or closer I
Speaker 1: suppose at that point than Earth, to certain things that
Speaker 1: could be pretty cool. Yeah, you have to. You have
Speaker 1: to account if you're launching anything for Mars, you have
Speaker 1: to account for mars Is gravitational effect, which is not
Speaker 1: as big as Earths. It's around six Earth's, but still
Speaker 1: much greater than the Moon's, which is one six that
Speaker 1: of Earth's, so you still have to battle against gravity.
Speaker 1: You also have an atmosphere, although it's a thin one
Speaker 1: on Mars, and that can you know that also plays
Speaker 1: into the whole launch aspect and re entry and all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So Mars is a launching pad
Speaker 1: is certainly a possibility if you were able to build
Speaker 1: out a colony of sufficient complexity, but it's uh, it
Speaker 1: would be a larger challenge than to do the same
Speaker 1: thing on the Moon. Also, we were not sure what
Speaker 1: we could get resource wise out of Mars yet. We
Speaker 1: we don't have enough data to really say, yeah, if
Speaker 1: we want a lot of stuff that's oxidized, then we
Speaker 1: can get plenty of that. But that might not be
Speaker 1: that we can rust stuff here on Earth. I mean,
Speaker 1: there might be really cool stuff there could be well,
Speaker 1: I mean, one advantage of a colony on Mars is
Speaker 1: that Mars is potentially the bigger research prize than the Moon. Sure,
Speaker 1: because nobody really thinks we're going to find evidence of
Speaker 1: life on the Moon, but it's who knows, you know,
Speaker 1: we might find evidence on Mars that there was once
Speaker 1: microbial life on the surface. Yeah, those canals didn't pan out,
Speaker 1: So maybe we'll actually see some some some microbial or
Speaker 1: at least some evidence of microbial life on Mars. But
Speaker 1: that would hopefully that we didn't bring ourselves. That's a
Speaker 1: good that's good as well. Yeah, so there are definitely
Speaker 1: benefits for either. And I think that you know, we've
Speaker 1: always dreamed of exploring other place. Maybe always is the
Speaker 1: wrong word, but as long as I can remember, we
Speaker 1: dreamed of exploring, dream of exploring, like the bodies of
Speaker 1: gods that were crossing this guy. Probably not, but you know,
Speaker 1: now we're we're definitely at that point, although we call
Speaker 1: those bodies of God's rockets, uh, but you know, we're
Speaker 1: at the point now where we do dream of the
Speaker 1: exploration and establishment of a colony somewhere else. And I
Speaker 1: think Mars has its own kind of appeal because while
Speaker 1: there are some major challenges that we're gonna have to
Speaker 1: talk about in a minute, uh, the fact that it
Speaker 1: is in some ways much more similar to Earth than
Speaker 1: the Moon is. I mean, there is an atmosphere, even
Speaker 1: though it's not a breathable atmosphere, it's not very thick, uh.
Speaker 1: And there is more gravity on Mars, although it's not
Speaker 1: as great as Earth's gravity in uh, it kind of
Speaker 1: feels like that would be a better fit in some ways.
Speaker 1: So that kind of leads us into a discussion about
Speaker 1: what the challenges are of establishing colonies at either the
Speaker 1: Moon or Mars um. And they share some stuff in common,
Speaker 1: but there are also some very you know, there's some
Speaker 1: things that are peculiar to just one or the other.
Speaker 1: Uh So, I mean the first problem is getting there.
Speaker 1: Not getting to the Moon is significantly less difficult than
Speaker 1: getting to Mars, so a couple of days. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: getting to the Moon is a few days, whereas getting
Speaker 1: to Mars, depending upon where Mars and Earth are along
Speaker 1: their orbits. And yeah, hopefully we would sink that up
Speaker 1: so that it was a shorter trip, but the best
Speaker 1: estimates about a hundred and eighty days, right, Yeah, generally
Speaker 1: like six months tends to be the on the shortest
Speaker 1: of short And even then, you're not aiming at where
Speaker 1: Mars is. You're aiming at where it's going to be, right,
Speaker 1: you have to do a trajectory of where Mars will
Speaker 1: be by the time your spacecraft gets to that point
Speaker 1: in space. Yeah, we discussed last time what happens to
Speaker 1: your body while you're in space on transit. In transit
Speaker 1: to Mars, dred and eight days in interplanetary space is
Speaker 1: not very cool. As it turns out, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of radiation going on in space. Yeah, there's a there's
Speaker 1: solar radiation there's cosmic radiation, cosmic rays. Uh, these are
Speaker 1: nasty things to encounter. It's not it's not something that
Speaker 1: you definitely it's not something you want to be exposed
Speaker 1: to for very long. So it means that either you
Speaker 1: would have to shield your spacecraft in such a way
Speaker 1: so that it could block the majority of this radiation,
Speaker 1: which adds weight to your spacecraft, it makes it more
Speaker 1: difficult for you to have to launch it, or you
Speaker 1: just have to endure the danger of traveling through that.
Speaker 1: Now that that's just kind of a nonstarter, Like you
Speaker 1: just have to find a way to shield the astronauts
Speaker 1: right the the there was one study that was done,
Speaker 1: uh back by the f a A actually back in
Speaker 1: two thousand five. If that said that if you were
Speaker 1: to take a journey to Mars and back. Now this
Speaker 1: was a thought of if we were to visit Mars
Speaker 1: but then ultimately return to Earth. As we'll discussed later
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Now the look at going to Mars
Speaker 1: essentially means a one way ticket because the difficulty of
Speaker 1: getting someone back to Earth is so great that it's
Speaker 1: it would push back the mission many more years for
Speaker 1: us to be able to do that. So the FAA
Speaker 1: estimated that it would take about five and thirty six
Speaker 1: days in space total to get two Mars and back
Speaker 1: because remember those both planets are continuing to travel through
Speaker 1: space while you're going on this mission, which means that
Speaker 1: by the time you land on Mars, Earth is not
Speaker 1: where you thought it was gonna be like, So you
Speaker 1: actually have to wait for the plants to start to
Speaker 1: line up. Against that you can optimize your travel time.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you have to worry about how much more fuel
Speaker 1: you're going to carry, which again changes all the other
Speaker 1: parameters of mission. It's really complicated in other words, like
Speaker 1: one change to one thing changes everything else. Um, they
Speaker 1: said that they estimated someone who would be between and
Speaker 1: thirty four years old would have a ten chance of
Speaker 1: contracting cancer if you're male, if you're female, seventeen. So uh,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a you know, that's a significant number.
Speaker 1: That's just and that's just the trip. So Mars, as
Speaker 1: it turns out, does not have enough of an atmosphere
Speaker 1: to really block a lot of this nasty radiation, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't have a magnetosphere to repel cosmic rays, and
Speaker 1: cosmic rays are thought to possibly lead to diseases like Alzheimer's. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's not just cancer. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of nasty things that can happen to you upon exposure
Speaker 1: to this stuff. You are vulnerable to it while you
Speaker 1: are traveling to Mars, and you would still be vulnerable
Speaker 1: on the surface of Mars. Will talk about a proposed
Speaker 1: mission to Mars that and how they are talking about
Speaker 1: getting trying to get around that, trying to keep people
Speaker 1: safe from this kind of radiation. But the point is
Speaker 1: that's something you gotta worry about. Now. The Moon benefits
Speaker 1: from being close enough to the Earth where not all
Speaker 1: of this radiation is going to hit the Moon, but
Speaker 1: it's still quite a bit still does hit the Moon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the moon is is from what I read, and maybe
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. I thought the moon was was pretty much
Speaker 1: just as bad a radiation situation as the surface of Mars.
Speaker 1: But the it's well, it's different because of the lack
Speaker 1: of atmosphere. That certainly plays a huge role with the Moon.
Speaker 1: But the advantages is the length of the trip, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're talking about exposed as long on the way there,
Speaker 1: and the heathetically come home within a certain period of time,
Speaker 1: so to to minimize your exposure exactly. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: but so if we're talking about in both cases that
Speaker 1: they could build a surface on the structure that would
Speaker 1: protect you from the radiation or under the ground. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: build a surface on the structure. I think that's what
Speaker 1: I said, build a structure on the surface. Sorry, Uh
Speaker 1: that would yeah, well, so that would keep you safe
Speaker 1: in either place. But the trip to Mars is unavoidable.
Speaker 1: It's going to be long, even in the best case. Now,
Speaker 1: some other challenges to discuss. Uh. You know, we've also
Speaker 1: said in the last podcast about how long exposure to
Speaker 1: micro gravity can result in other problems, things like your
Speaker 1: bone loss, your your body fluids redistribute, and you can
Speaker 1: start to have cardiovascular and blood pressure problems. Uh. Now
Speaker 1: on a trip to Mars, that's dangerous. The ones you
Speaker 1: get to Mars, the gravity is a little bit better,
Speaker 1: so you you could avoid some of those problems the
Speaker 1: moon one six the Earth gravity, so some of those
Speaker 1: problems would remain. Uh, big concerns like if you spend
Speaker 1: any appreciable amount of time on the Moon and then
Speaker 1: came back to Earth, you probably feel like you were
Speaker 1: wearing lead clothing. Um. And uh, and it's possible that
Speaker 1: you could be suffering from some of these problems like
Speaker 1: muscle loss and bone loss that uh, muscle less you
Speaker 1: can recover from, but bone loss is something that is
Speaker 1: pretty you know, pretty much permanent. Medical technology. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: no coming back. Now. Maybe by the time we actually
Speaker 1: have a colony on the Moon we can fix that.
Speaker 1: We'll have like Dr McCoy's little medical device that will
Speaker 1: magically restore bone loss, but right now we don't have that. UM,
Speaker 1: So both of those trips would have those issues as well,
Speaker 1: and that once you got to Mars you probably could
Speaker 1: avoid some of the muscle loss and bone loss stuff,
Speaker 1: but on the trip there you'd still have to deal
Speaker 1: with it. Um. You don't have a breathable atmosphere in
Speaker 1: either location, so you have to make sure that you
Speaker 1: bring something with you. Now, in the case of the Moon,
Speaker 1: you pretty much have to bring all of it, I
Speaker 1: mean uh, and then continually resupply with Mars. There's talk
Speaker 1: of the fact that you might be able to get
Speaker 1: ice from Mars and then treat it so that you
Speaker 1: can make it a breathable atmosphere, but you would have
Speaker 1: to treat it because the stuff that is on Mars
Speaker 1: is not friendly to human lungs. Oh. Yeah, it's another
Speaker 1: problem with Mars, isn't it. It's got some stuff there
Speaker 1: that we don't our bodies don't like. Yeah, the Mars regular,
Speaker 1: as it turns out, is pretty toxic overall. Um, there's
Speaker 1: a There are a lot of words here that I
Speaker 1: do not know how to say at all. Okay, um
Speaker 1: poison dust, poison dust, um, silicates, silicates, Yeah, Silicates are
Speaker 1: stuff that react with water to form things like hydrogen, peroxide,
Speaker 1: hydroxyl and superoxide. UM and bt dubs. Water is in
Speaker 1: our lungs, so when you when you breathe silicates in
Speaker 1: quartz dust does the same thing, and it's blamed for
Speaker 1: for for lung cancer and UH silicosis in minors. Um
Speaker 1: which which is a terrible lung disease. UM uh gypsum
Speaker 1: Um is a sulfate material that forms again in the
Speaker 1: presence of water. It's not technically toxic, but it's an
Speaker 1: extreme ice, skin and respiratory irritant, like on the level
Speaker 1: of coal dust, um uh and uh perch perch lare it? Yes,
Speaker 1: there you go that UM. It's which is a group
Speaker 1: of chemicals that are used as some oxidizers and rocket
Speaker 1: fuel um which can which can basically break down the
Speaker 1: thyroid gland too. So you have to make sure that
Speaker 1: whatever environment you have, you are completely free of these
Speaker 1: contaminants that could otherwise kill you, these toxic things that
Speaker 1: could kill you. It's not like you're going to be
Speaker 1: running around barefoot in this stuff or anything. But you'd
Speaker 1: have to imagine that like the cleansing process to get
Speaker 1: like like anything that you took in from outside would
Speaker 1: have to go through the kind of DeCamp decontamination. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would. It would be the it would be the
Speaker 1: space version of de lousing. It would be it would
Speaker 1: be this incredibly thorough process. It would have to be
Speaker 1: in order for you to avoid contaminating the habitable areas
Speaker 1: of the colony. And maybe this gives us a moment
Speaker 1: to talk about what is actually feasible in terms of
Speaker 1: a habitable environment on these planets. Uh in, not planet
Speaker 1: the Moon and the planet Mars. We're not talking about
Speaker 1: these these big space cities like you see in the movies.
Speaker 1: I mean, in the near future, we're basically talking about
Speaker 1: living in a can. Yeah, a few, maybe a few
Speaker 1: cans that are connected by by tubes, underground cans well,
Speaker 1: especially for for Mars, it would have to be um
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the specific one. Mars one is
Speaker 1: the one will specifically talk about. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: the moon would probably be a good idea too, just
Speaker 1: so that you can avoid that radiation problem. But the
Speaker 1: other big issue of course with Mars is that it
Speaker 1: is so far away that you know, we could send
Speaker 1: materials there, but it's going to take the better part
Speaker 1: of a year to get there, depending upon where Earth
Speaker 1: and Mars are in their orbits. So if you left
Speaker 1: your phone charger, yeah, or food food right, or that
Speaker 1: your oxygen making equipment isn't making oxygen at the rate
Speaker 1: you need it, then you're not in good shape mentioning food.
Speaker 1: This brings up another thing that's pretty interesting I read
Speaker 1: in a Slate article about Mars colonization. One issue is
Speaker 1: that we don't know what the long term effects of
Speaker 1: being separated from Earth bacteria are on the diet. Like,
Speaker 1: so they're there's soil bacteria all over the Earth, and
Speaker 1: having good biodiversity of bacteria and the soil is apparently
Speaker 1: important for growing the kinds of crops that keep our
Speaker 1: gut flora healthy, right, right, um. There there's a project
Speaker 1: called the Human Microbiome Project that that has found that
Speaker 1: bacterial cells outnumber our cells in our own bodies like
Speaker 1: ten to one. We've got something like a hundred trillion
Speaker 1: bacteria living in US at any given time. So really,
Speaker 1: were not so much human as we are bacteria planets. Yes,
Speaker 1: we are giant bacteria bags well by mass, we're a lot.
Speaker 1: We out number back, not out number, but our cells
Speaker 1: are bigger, we outmask but but but but any any
Speaker 1: given human contains up to like ten thousand strains of
Speaker 1: bacteria um. And and all of those are different depending
Speaker 1: on what you eat and where you live. Like like,
Speaker 1: for example, if you eat a bunch of sushi, Um,
Speaker 1: there's there's a uh, there's there's a bacteria for that
Speaker 1: that helps you break down the seaweed, there's a bacteria
Speaker 1: for that. There's a bacteria. It's much better than there's
Speaker 1: nap for that. Um Yeah, well but so so yeah.
Speaker 1: If so, if you're on Mars and you you're eating
Speaker 1: food grown hydroponic lee on Mars, you're not getting that
Speaker 1: biodiversity right. It has none of the If you're just
Speaker 1: growing out of water, you don't have that soil, and
Speaker 1: it would be just drastically expensive to ship dirt to Mars.
Speaker 1: Whether or not those bacteria could even live in those
Speaker 1: environments that we're artificially creating for ourselves is a questions.
Speaker 1: So those are the challenges. Let's talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about some of the proposed missions that either will or
Speaker 1: would or could have the colony on Mars or the Moon. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: and and and this is this kind of ties back
Speaker 1: into the challenges as well, because because that the costs
Speaker 1: of doing all of this stuff is large end end
Speaker 1: astronomi dear s. I was avoiding that word, but there
Speaker 1: you go. Um uh yeah, grain at me like an idiot.
Speaker 1: I am an idiot looking at going to the moon.
Speaker 1: Um about back in two thousand four, that's why the
Speaker 1: moon kind of concept um the the initial estimates were
Speaker 1: between a hundred and we're about a hundred billion dollars
Speaker 1: through um, but other people said that it could cost
Speaker 1: somewhere between two hundred fifty billions. And the Constellation program,
Speaker 1: which was a program that NASA had proposed back in
Speaker 1: the mid two thousand's that would have been our Moon
Speaker 1: colony and future deep space exploration program. Uh. One of
Speaker 1: the major criticisms leveled against that program was that it
Speaker 1: was already going over budget and it was behind schedule,
Speaker 1: um and so it may have been that that one
Speaker 1: billion dollar estimate was in fact low. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's hard to say when you first come up with
Speaker 1: these things because a lot of the challenges you will
Speaker 1: discover as you embark upon these projects aren't known at
Speaker 1: the beginning, right you start to discover them as you
Speaker 1: go along, and then you realize, oh, now I had
Speaker 1: to take this into consideration. Wait a minute, now that
Speaker 1: I know this one piece of information that affects these
Speaker 1: other fourteen things I thought I knew before, and uh
Speaker 1: if I don't have any of the numbers in front
Speaker 1: of me, But if you look at any of the
Speaker 1: NASA programs, most of them have gone tremendously over budget,
Speaker 1: and not in those you know, like government spending kind
Speaker 1: of kind of ways. Just because of of what you
Speaker 1: were saying. Yeah, I mean, not not to say that
Speaker 1: every NASA program has been a model of efficient management,
Speaker 1: because there are certainly cases of mismanagement within the Space program,
Speaker 1: but it's not like that's the one and only factor
Speaker 1: that leads to a project going over budget sure and UM.
Speaker 1: In contrast the Mars one cost um, which which is
Speaker 1: one of the projects we're probably about to talk about
Speaker 1: in detail. UM their their estimated cost is UM about
Speaker 1: six billion dollars for the first colony of four people.
Speaker 1: This makes no sense to me, which is ridiculous. Although
Speaker 1: although Elon musk Um roughly estimated to Mars colony at
Speaker 1: only thirty six billion UM, and I would say they
Speaker 1: all had to go in Tesla's right, we had just
Speaker 1: getting the Tesla and launch it into space and then
Speaker 1: you could drive there and the nice thing is it's
Speaker 1: a silent ride. But you know, I am but it
Speaker 1: wasn't before. But it's But it's ridiculous. It's crazy to
Speaker 1: me that the people are estimating going to Mars in
Speaker 1: this this six billion, this thirty six billion numbers. When
Speaker 1: we were talking about going to the Moon, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: almost a decade ago. For yeah, it's well, they're going
Speaker 1: to finance it by reality TV. So what's the problem.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, before we get into that, let me
Speaker 1: talk about the Moon one first. Because this this this
Speaker 1: kind of predates the Mars one circus. I think it's
Speaker 1: it's safe to call it a circus, right, No, I well,
Speaker 1: so unfair. I don't want to I don't want to
Speaker 1: throw a wet blanket on Mars one. I'm just saying it.
Speaker 1: I'm very skeptical. I don't want to say I don't
Speaker 1: want to be a downer and say like, don't try.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying like, it's I don't know how you're
Speaker 1: going to do. We'll get into that. We'll talk about
Speaker 1: the Mars one fiasco in a minute. So, uh, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: my my brain switched off. Now let's talk about the
Speaker 1: Moon for a second. So NASA had the Constellation program
Speaker 1: that they had proposed where it would UH. The idea
Speaker 1: was to to create a crew exploration vehicle, which was
Speaker 1: eventually named the Orion, and the Orion crew Exploration vehicle
Speaker 1: was to replace the previous UH methods of delivering people
Speaker 1: into space UM and also to create a new type
Speaker 1: of heavy lifting vehicle, essentially a rocket, so that that
Speaker 1: would replace what in the Constellation program was the Area's
Speaker 1: five rocket. So the Constellation program was meant to establish
Speaker 1: a presence on the Moon, a colony on the Moon,
Speaker 1: and then further go into space, perhaps eventually exploring and
Speaker 1: maybe even colonizing Mars and beyond. That was the idea,
Speaker 1: and some of the missions would be you know, unmanned
Speaker 1: missions that we would fire off from the Moon and etcetera. Uh.
Speaker 1: The problem was that the budget, it went over budget,
Speaker 1: it was behind schedule. UH. It had been criticized widely because, UM,
Speaker 1: it's hard. It can be very difficult for scientists to
Speaker 1: justify the cost in the eyes of politicians and their
Speaker 1: constituents who don't see an immediate return on investment. UM.
Speaker 1: It's not to say that people all undervalue what science
Speaker 1: brings to us and they don't realize it. It's just
Speaker 1: that it's a tough sell. Sure, Sure when when you're
Speaker 1: going you know, like like healthcare and food education and
Speaker 1: I mean granted these the work that we do in
Speaker 1: these endeavors can often benefit us in those arenas, but
Speaker 1: it's hard to make that direct connection when you are
Speaker 1: just trying to justify an enormous price tech. Right. So
Speaker 1: NASA eventually, first they shelved the program and then essentially
Speaker 1: the Obama administration scrapped it. So the Constellation program is
Speaker 1: no more. The Crew Exploration vehicle lives on the Orion
Speaker 1: that has continued to be funded and developed, although now
Speaker 1: the focus at least in the short term, it's less
Speaker 1: on the Orion being an exploration vehicle and more for
Speaker 1: being a an alternative to an escape pod for the
Speaker 1: I S S folks, the International Space Station folks, so
Speaker 1: that way we don't have to depend upon the Russian
Speaker 1: soyas capsules. Instead we have our very own capsules we
Speaker 1: could use um. And then there's also that heavy lifting
Speaker 1: vehicle that is still being funded, which would be used
Speaker 1: to put crew and cargo and heavy supplies out into space.
Speaker 1: It would be a necessary part of deep space exploration.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of criticisms directed toward the Obama
Speaker 1: administration for putting that into motion, because a lot of
Speaker 1: people said that really the Area's five rocket would have
Speaker 1: done all of that, and that if we had stuck
Speaker 1: with the Constellation program, we would already be preparing people
Speaker 1: to go out into space, like within the next two years,
Speaker 1: we could have had someone on Mars. That's the argument
Speaker 1: that the critics have made towards this program. Where the
Speaker 1: truth lies, I don't know, because this is a complex issue.
Speaker 1: We've got a lot more than just the science and
Speaker 1: technology going on. You've got politics and economics, and eventually
Speaker 1: you get well beyond my level of expertise. So I
Speaker 1: don't know which side is the more realistic, but it's
Speaker 1: certainly it certainly does not look like we're going to
Speaker 1: have a lunar colony there anytime in the near future.
Speaker 1: Maybe we do within I don't know. Twenty is as
Speaker 1: close as I would go. I know that Obama had
Speaker 1: talked about even establishing a a presence on an asteroid
Speaker 1: by in preparation to landing people on Mars by twenty
Speaker 1: thirty five sometime around then. But you know, it's there
Speaker 1: have been a lot of critics saying that, how can
Speaker 1: you expect us to do that when you essentially hit
Speaker 1: reset on the program we had designed to do those things. Uh, meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Mars one, So Mars one is a totally different animal.
Speaker 1: It's a private approach as opposed to a government sponsored approach,
Speaker 1: and it's a one way ticket. Yeah. Yeah, you do
Speaker 1: not come back, at least, there's no mean right. Maybe
Speaker 1: you would, maybe you would live long enough for us
Speaker 1: to develop a way to get you back, but that
Speaker 1: the plan is that once you go, that's where you're
Speaker 1: going to be spending the rest of your days. It's
Speaker 1: on that red planet. It's a it's a run by
Speaker 1: a technically a nonprofit foundation that is run by a
Speaker 1: for profit group. Yeah. Well really, what you have is
Speaker 1: you've got a for profit arm that does all the
Speaker 1: merchandizing and like we said, the Mark TV, the TV
Speaker 1: reality show that's supposed to be the no, that's supposed
Speaker 1: to be the main way for generating revenue. The TV
Speaker 1: reality show and merchandizing would generate the revenue needed to
Speaker 1: pour into the research, development, production and execution of this project.
Speaker 1: So the the the idea is that through the applicant
Speaker 1: process and through the launch and through the settlement, um,
Speaker 1: you would be you know, yeah, yeah, doing a reality
Speaker 1: TV series what these people are going through. You would
Speaker 1: have a Mars one big brother essentially is from from
Speaker 1: the very beginning where you have the selection process through
Speaker 1: the training process, and that training would probably involve putting
Speaker 1: applicants into hostile environments where they have to pretty much
Speaker 1: spend all their time within UH kind of like a
Speaker 1: biodome experience, you know, but put the someplace where they
Speaker 1: really could not venture beyond their their UH stations because
Speaker 1: they would die. So something like Antarctica or whatever, you
Speaker 1: put the someplace where it would be really tough to survive.
Speaker 1: So that which yeah, yeah, for training purposes, but also
Speaker 1: it makes great television folks. Um I mean and in
Speaker 1: the way that interesting fact, I'm pretty sure that the
Speaker 1: Soviet cosmonauts were banned from playing chess after um, someone
Speaker 1: in Antarctica killed someone over the outcome of a chess match.
Speaker 1: That's so, this is a kind of TV that we
Speaker 1: can look forward to on the Mars one projects. So
Speaker 1: so this does raise questions obviously, like let's a that
Speaker 1: let's say that everything goes really well and despite the
Speaker 1: myriad of challenges we mentioned, not to mention all the
Speaker 1: other challenges based upon the actual Mars one radiation, the
Speaker 1: fact that they have to to build these like what,
Speaker 1: They'll build the capsules and send them to Mars. That's
Speaker 1: the plan, right, and they the capsules land on the
Speaker 1: surface of Mars. Rovers that they also put on the
Speaker 1: surface of Mars help bring those capsules to where they
Speaker 1: need to be, and then astronauts and the rovers together,
Speaker 1: the first group of astronauts, the first group of four
Speaker 1: would land on Mars and with yeah, so around the
Speaker 1: same time as what Obama's plan would would do through uh,
Speaker 1: through the new NASA initiative. UH. The they would use
Speaker 1: the rovers to help build the living space they would need.
Speaker 1: So essentially, the rovers and the first group before would
Speaker 1: be in charge of putting together all the habitable space
Speaker 1: for the next group before and the next group before.
Speaker 1: I think there's twenty total. The plan was to send
Speaker 1: out another four people every um, every every so often,
Speaker 1: every every couple of years. So uh, at any rate,
Speaker 1: the idea of being the first four would have the
Speaker 1: most palatial estate for a while because they'd be the
Speaker 1: ones in charge of putting it all together. But you know,
Speaker 1: to address that issue of radiation and the fact that
Speaker 1: they don't have the protection on the surface of Mars
Speaker 1: that we do on Earth, that talked about burying, you know,
Speaker 1: digging underground and putting some of the stations there. Some
Speaker 1: like the living quarters would be down there. According according
Speaker 1: to Mars, one five ms of or about sixteen point
Speaker 1: four feet of Martian soil would be equivalent to being
Speaker 1: protected by Earth's atmosphere. And yeah, so, I mean it
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it'd be of very comfortable experience. You'd
Speaker 1: be living underground on Mars with no way of getting back. Now,
Speaker 1: let's however, I mean, you know, it's a lot of people.
Speaker 1: You know, applications have gone, you know, everyone on the
Speaker 1: planets least well, they say they have at least a
Speaker 1: hundred thousands. Did I read some criticism It was something
Speaker 1: like they were counting applications that were started but not
Speaker 1: completed or so That's why I say. They say, it's
Speaker 1: almost like when they talk about when a when a
Speaker 1: technology company tells about how many units they've sold, and
Speaker 1: they include all the units that they have shipped to
Speaker 1: retailers that haven't been sold to consumers, they've been sold
Speaker 1: to retail establishments, but they counted as units sold. Well, regardless,
Speaker 1: I would say that it's captured the public's imagination. Right.
Speaker 1: But see, here's here's the point I was getting at
Speaker 1: before I went on my incredibly long tangent. So let's
Speaker 1: assume that they beat all the odds and somehow they
Speaker 1: managed to land these rovers the capsules. Everything works, They
Speaker 1: put it all together before I get there. They no
Speaker 1: one's killed each other. Everything's hunky dory. The four got
Speaker 1: people settled down for a long Martian nap, and uh,
Speaker 1: the ratings for the TV show start to slip, and
Speaker 1: then the TV show that doesn't receive the financial support
Speaker 1: that it once had. What happens to those people that
Speaker 1: we've put on Mars And what happens when the TV
Speaker 1: show goes away when people stop buying Mars one trucker
Speaker 1: hats and T shirts. We're sorry, colonists, you have been canceled. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do we do? You know that's there's a Now
Speaker 1: we have a moral obligation, or at least an ethical
Speaker 1: obligation to the people we have put on this planet
Speaker 1: to keep them alive. Like, well, that's weird that you'd
Speaker 1: have an ethical obligation to people who are put there
Speaker 1: by a private enterprise, you know, not by your government
Speaker 1: or something. I also wonder. I mean, again, this is
Speaker 1: the skeptic in me. You've got a nonprofit organization that's
Speaker 1: overseeing all of this, and there's the for profit side
Speaker 1: that is designed to get all the money for it,
Speaker 1: and the nonprofit side essentially has like ninety five controlling
Speaker 1: interests in this private enterprise. Essentially, the nonprofit is in
Speaker 1: charge of making sure that the funds go to where
Speaker 1: they need to go with research and development and all
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. Uh, the skeptic in me worries
Speaker 1: that that's this. I would like to think that everyone's
Speaker 1: on the up and up. But the skeptic and me
Speaker 1: can't help but say, you know, if this were a scam,
Speaker 1: this is a heck of a scam where you've got
Speaker 1: a non private organization that's essentially funneling all this money.
Speaker 1: So I don't say that this necessary. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: for it to work, they would have to have the
Speaker 1: people involved, Otherwise you don't have a product to sell.
Speaker 1: So I would like to think that this is mostly
Speaker 1: on the up and up, but at the very least,
Speaker 1: I have to say it seems overly optimistic, if not naive.
Speaker 1: While we're on the negative side, I wanted to have
Speaker 1: another kind of dark concern I have about this is that,
Speaker 1: so we've talked about the inspiration factor that you know,
Speaker 1: so many kids wanted to get into science and exploration
Speaker 1: and engineering and stuff because of the moon landing. Uh
Speaker 1: and and are to the benefit of the Mars one
Speaker 1: if it succeeded and everything went according to plan, would
Speaker 1: be oh yeah, so we can renew that there's this
Speaker 1: new sense of adventure about going to space and kids
Speaker 1: are really inspired. Is it possible that there could be
Speaker 1: the opposite effect. Now, if you have a reality TV
Speaker 1: show where, assuming something bad happens, uh, we're watching people
Speaker 1: slowly deteriorate in health over the course of eleven months
Speaker 1: until they all die. Could that have a to the
Speaker 1: opposite effect really discourage people? I think it certainly would. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I agree that. And even if it just even
Speaker 1: if this were a project that just ultimately fails because
Speaker 1: it was too ambitious, like not saying that everyone is
Speaker 1: sincere in their desire of fulfilling this project. If it
Speaker 1: fails because it was too ambitious and uh, and they
Speaker 1: don't have a lot to show for it, that could
Speaker 1: end up hurting it as well. And it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be a complete like disaster and ending the loss
Speaker 1: of human life for it to have a negative impact.
Speaker 1: But then again, here we are naysaying, and we could
Speaker 1: have made a lot of these criticisms about the plan
Speaker 1: to put somebody on the moon a decade. I mean,
Speaker 1: that was ambitious. Lots of people said that that would
Speaker 1: be impossible, that it would result in the death of astronauts,
Speaker 1: said it just that there was no point to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and so I just want to I want to
Speaker 1: show prudence there, you know, I want to say like
Speaker 1: that I'm skeptical, but that if you're listening people involved
Speaker 1: involved in Mars one and you're really trying to do this,
Speaker 1: I mean, work on it. Yeah, I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: say stop. I will say I will say, if you
Speaker 1: are working for Mars one, that I find your approach
Speaker 1: to discussing the dangers of radiation to be a little carevilly.
Speaker 1: For example, you remember when I mentioned that if you
Speaker 1: were between the ages of twenty five and thirty four
Speaker 1: and you spent um. So so if you're between those
Speaker 1: ages and you've spent a good amount of time in space,
Speaker 1: your chances for developing cancer if you're male increased by
Speaker 1: ten percent and female by about se um. And then
Speaker 1: Mars one's response to that, saying this is quoting from
Speaker 1: their website. Let's compare it to the people who do
Speaker 1: not go to Mars in their lifetimes. Men have a
Speaker 1: twelve percent chance of contracting prostate cancer and women have
Speaker 1: a twelve and a half percent chance of developing breast cancer.
Speaker 1: That's in your lifetime. Okay, that's one specific kind of
Speaker 1: cancer to specific kinds of cancer. So we're talking. They're
Speaker 1: they're comparing a person's entire lifespan to the amount of
Speaker 1: time it would take just to go to Mars and
Speaker 1: then be exposed to radiation. So I think that that
Speaker 1: is at best, that's misinformation. At worst, it's completely disingenuous,
Speaker 1: and it it misleads people into thinking that it's safer
Speaker 1: than it really is. And I I'm sure that assuming
Speaker 1: that they are all on the up and up, that
Speaker 1: through the screening process and the training process, all of
Speaker 1: that information will become much more concrete for the people
Speaker 1: who are are serious about pursuing this. I'm sure it
Speaker 1: would be disclosed. Yeah, But on the face of it,
Speaker 1: it makes me uneasy. Yeah, yeah, especially when you're charging
Speaker 1: for applications and you're inviting the whole world to apply.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a little bit, it's a little bit squiggly.
Speaker 1: Jim Bob, you are going to go to Mars. Don't
Speaker 1: worry about cancer. So are we ready to talk about
Speaker 1: some other options? Let's okay. So we we've talked a
Speaker 1: lot about the Moon and Mars, and those are the
Speaker 1: big ones, I think, but our imagination doesn't have to
Speaker 1: stop there. I mean, it's possible that we could colonize
Speaker 1: other places in the Solar system too, uh, And I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about a few of those, and I
Speaker 1: want to start with one that's kind of kind of counterintuitive,
Speaker 1: but for a strange reason I think might be the
Speaker 1: most likely place, which would be asteroids. And the reason
Speaker 1: I think that is because asteroids have one of the
Speaker 1: most obvious financial incentives. Sure there could be could be
Speaker 1: are chock full equil stuff. Yeah, there are asteroids that
Speaker 1: could have a lot of metals that are in the
Speaker 1: platinum family, which are exceedingly rare on Earth, super rare
Speaker 1: on Earth, but not so much in asteroids. And they say,
Speaker 1: like one asteroid could have more platinum group metals than
Speaker 1: have ever been mined on Earth so far and so
Speaker 1: and those are very expensive, you know, more expensive than
Speaker 1: gold usually, and they're also incredibly useful. It's not just
Speaker 1: that they're pretty. We can use them in electronics, they're
Speaker 1: they're useful in platinum used in like in fuel cells, right,
Speaker 1: and you can use platinum and fuel cells that for catalysts,
Speaker 1: so that you can have hydrogen based fuel cells, I
Speaker 1: should say, because there are a lot of different kinds,
Speaker 1: but in hydrogen based fuel cells. More often than not,
Speaker 1: the catalysts tends to be platinum. Uh. So this is
Speaker 1: really useful, highly valuable, and so there's a financial incentive
Speaker 1: for people to work really hard and invest lots of
Speaker 1: money to get there and set up shop. Now, the
Speaker 1: other side of that is that asteroids are extremely they're
Speaker 1: not friendly to humans because they don't have an atmosphere
Speaker 1: and they don't have a magnetosphere. Some some might be
Speaker 1: big enough to have a small magnetosphere, and there's not
Speaker 1: signific not significant enough to protect us from radiation. So
Speaker 1: you'd still have that that space radiation problem unless you
Speaker 1: were to drill down deep or have very protective coating.
Speaker 1: Step one higher, Bruce willis step two. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: all the same stuff we've been talking about. There, You're
Speaker 1: you're exposed to radiation in a bad way. It's it's
Speaker 1: a low or micro gravity environment, which is a pro
Speaker 1: and a coon on asteroids. Number one, it's a pro
Speaker 1: because it makes it that much easier to land and
Speaker 1: take off um, but it's a con because it has
Speaker 1: this negative effect on humans. And one of the pros
Speaker 1: also is that it might be much easier to build
Speaker 1: load bearing structures like living quarters and stuff on the
Speaker 1: surface of an asteroid, i'd because of that low gravity. Um,
Speaker 1: it would require you know, just less material. Again, they're
Speaker 1: they're they're a little bit further out in the Moon,
Speaker 1: so so that can have a potential for yeah launch,
Speaker 1: They're they're near Earth asteroids and there are Main Belt
Speaker 1: asteroids and and so we've thought about both. It seems
Speaker 1: more likely to me that if we were to set
Speaker 1: up shop would be on one of the bigger, nearer
Speaker 1: Earth asteroids that they want to exploit. But also you
Speaker 1: could focus on Main Belt asteroids or even like the
Speaker 1: Dwarf Planet series. Um, yeah, that's oh oh mega. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But like we've been saying that all these challenges are there,
Speaker 1: but these are other places we might look. Here's a
Speaker 1: really cool one I came across, which is and this
Speaker 1: is very fantastical. It's this is looking a long way
Speaker 1: in the future, not not any near term. But uh.
Speaker 1: I read uh Universe Today article that interviewed this NASA
Speaker 1: scientist named Jeffrey Landis, and he talked about an interesting
Speaker 1: way of possibly colonizing Venus in the far future. Venus
Speaker 1: Venus which which can melt lead. Yeah, the surface of
Speaker 1: which can melt lead, boil sulfur the surface of screen.
Speaker 1: The surface of Venus has a pressure about ninety times
Speaker 1: that of Earth's atmosphere, so it's like a pressure that's
Speaker 1: not quite as much as the bottom of the deepest
Speaker 1: part of Earth's ocean, but like being at the bottom
Speaker 1: of some parts of the ocean. Um. See I'm seeing here.
Speaker 1: It has a mean surface temperature of seven thirty five kelvin,
Speaker 1: which is about four sixty two degrees celsius or a
Speaker 1: balmy eight sixty three degrees fahrenheit. Yeah, like we said,
Speaker 1: melts lead, So drop your artillery shell and it's just liquid.
Speaker 1: All of your books catch fire. But this plan but
Speaker 1: so there it's well it's not so much a plan
Speaker 1: and that anybody's gonna do it real soon. But he
Speaker 1: just talked about it is a sort of thought experiment,
Speaker 1: and it actually sounds really cool. So he had this
Speaker 1: idea that a balloon filled with breathable air would float
Speaker 1: in Venus's atmosphere because of Venus's atmosphere is so thick,
Speaker 1: so the density of this balloon full of air that
Speaker 1: we could have breathed would float in Venus's atmosphere at
Speaker 1: a place where the atmospheric pressure is about one bar
Speaker 1: or one atmosphere, which is totally livable for us. Um,
Speaker 1: just floating in the atmosphere by itself. Are you telling
Speaker 1: me there's talking about a floating colony that he's talking
Speaker 1: about a floating cloud city on exactly. Yeah, it would
Speaker 1: be Lando Calarisians city on Venus. And um, yes, we've
Speaker 1: all seen that old adlay Williams in the cult forty five.
Speaker 1: What does it say? He says works every time. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and so we'd all be chilling with Lando. Um. But
Speaker 1: but the cool thing about this is so just imagine
Speaker 1: you would counteract a lot of these problems if you're
Speaker 1: if you're in the atmosphere at this level, it would
Speaker 1: be a reasonable temperature at this level in the atmosphere
Speaker 1: because where this balloon would float would be comparable to
Speaker 1: Earth's atmosphere temperature. Um, it would be you would be
Speaker 1: uh safe from rapid decompression because the atmospheric pressure outside
Speaker 1: would be about the same as it would be inside. Um.
Speaker 1: So you have all these cool benefits. Now you would
Speaker 1: have some problems number one, like how would you build this? Also,
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, the clouds on Venus are made
Speaker 1: of sulfuric acid. That's exactly right, and it would be
Speaker 1: that that's one of the main problems he identified. He
Speaker 1: thought that the hardest part of this would be making
Speaker 1: the balloon out of a material that's sturdy enough to
Speaker 1: hold it and keep it in place and not not
Speaker 1: too heavy at the same time to sink it. But
Speaker 1: that would be sturdy enough to withstand the corrosive effects
Speaker 1: of the sulfuric acid that would build up on the
Speaker 1: outside of the balloon. Um. But anyway, I think that's
Speaker 1: a really interesting idea. Uh. And then that of course
Speaker 1: leads to the other question that if you're talking about colonization,
Speaker 1: we're not necessarily talking about on the surface. So could
Speaker 1: we create floating cities and other gas planets like the
Speaker 1: gas giants. The answer there is probably no, because gas
Speaker 1: giants like a Jupiter just has massive radiation stormy and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's Jupiter is just a death trap. Um. Really, like,
Speaker 1: it's way worse than just interplanetary radiation. Mars was hostile.
Speaker 1: You don't know anything yet. Seriously, Jupiter, it's like it's
Speaker 1: not just that you're you're lacking the protection of Earth,
Speaker 1: but you're subjecting yourself to additional radiation. Um. And there's
Speaker 1: a huge gravity. Well, and that creates a big problem. Um.
Speaker 1: But so could we colonize other planets? Well, uh, here's
Speaker 1: one that's another weird option. What about Mercury. Well, you say,
Speaker 1: why would we colonize Mercury? And how could we do it?
Speaker 1: It's so hot. Mercury is actually not quite as hot
Speaker 1: as Venus, but it's almost as hot. So why would
Speaker 1: you do that? Well, it turns out the polar regions
Speaker 1: of Mercury might be safe temperatures, um, if you go
Speaker 1: straight to the north or south pole. Uh. And another
Speaker 1: thing that's interesting is satellite data makes us think that
Speaker 1: there is probably water ice on the poles of Mercury,
Speaker 1: which is a sort of a must have. It's kind
Speaker 1: of it's way up there on our list of things
Speaker 1: what we want, um, and so you can get it
Speaker 1: this there might be other volatiles that would be useful
Speaker 1: for us. And one of the big pluses of colonizing
Speaker 1: Mercury would be solar energy. Okay, Now, the surface of
Speaker 1: Mercury gets a huge amount of solar energy. It gets
Speaker 1: way more than the surface of the Earth does. And
Speaker 1: if you could set up shop on Mercury where you're
Speaker 1: collecting solar energy, you could create a just ginormous surplus
Speaker 1: of energy that's useful in space, be way more, way
Speaker 1: more effective than our our Earth based photovoltaics because of
Speaker 1: the yeah, proximity to right and so so that's one
Speaker 1: big selling point of of Mercury. Uh. And so some
Speaker 1: people have even said, like, if you go way way
Speaker 1: into the future, I don't know if you've read about, like, uh,
Speaker 1: some of the plans for creating like Dyson spears. Have
Speaker 1: you ever heard of this concept where you would be
Speaker 1: creating just tons and tons of solar panels to harness
Speaker 1: all of the Sun's energy. Basically a lot of these
Speaker 1: plans involved something basically like, uh, turning the planet Mercury
Speaker 1: into solar panels, like you're you're just mining it to death. Um.
Speaker 1: Of course that's so far in the future. That's it's
Speaker 1: basically fantasy, but it's an interesting idea. Um. So, then
Speaker 1: there are a couple other places in the Solar system
Speaker 1: we might look. I've already mentioned that Jupiter is kind
Speaker 1: of a death trap, but there are really cool reasons
Speaker 1: we might want to go to Europa, Yeah, which is
Speaker 1: still pretty rough. Oh yeah, I'm not saying we want
Speaker 1: to go there, like it'd be real nice, and I'm
Speaker 1: saying there's there's a strong incentence. But yeah, like there
Speaker 1: are like they're like the amount of lethal radiation you
Speaker 1: would receive in Jupiter as uh you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's a huge amount, but uh it's only like one
Speaker 1: six that on Eurobo, which is still pretty nasty stuff.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, on one day, one day of surface exposure
Speaker 1: on Europa, they say is is a fatal dose of
Speaker 1: radiation for a human. So again you need massive protection.
Speaker 1: Uh So Europa for those of you who don't know that,
Speaker 1: that's a moon of Jupiter and it's the place in
Speaker 1: the Solar system that we're that scientists are the most
Speaker 1: excited about life. They think that Okay, now Europa is
Speaker 1: covered in this icy crust, and underneath that icy crust,
Speaker 1: they're pretty sure there are vast oceans of liquid water,
Speaker 1: and they think in those oceans of liquid water, it's
Speaker 1: entirely possible that there is microbial life. We just don't know,
Speaker 1: but that's on the radiation, some kind of eldriche horror.
Speaker 1: They think it's the best place to look um and
Speaker 1: so that's a really cool reason to go there. Um.
Speaker 1: Of course, the drawback of that is one of the
Speaker 1: challenges to human colonization might be the same thing. Uh now,
Speaker 1: if there are alien microbes there, that might be bad
Speaker 1: times to be fair, to be fair, Yeah, the the
Speaker 1: likelihood of alien and and terrestrial biology being all um
Speaker 1: compatible in any way so like for it to be
Speaker 1: sort of a bacteria or a virus kind of thing
Speaker 1: is the likelihood is low because it's the development would
Speaker 1: have been so far separated that the chance that they're
Speaker 1: being compatibility is also low. Well, it can still be
Speaker 1: toxic though, Oh yeah, so toxicity would still be an issue,
Speaker 1: but you wouldn't necessarily worry about catching some sort of
Speaker 1: weird European I don't know. No, it would be more
Speaker 1: likely that it would be something like you know, the
Speaker 1: the europa version of Chlistradian bata lineum, which causes botulism,
Speaker 1: which you know is a neurotoxin that can kill on
Speaker 1: the magnitude of nanograms. So yeah, or you can use
Speaker 1: it to smooth out those wrinkles. I don't know. It
Speaker 1: sounds like you're saying like you're sure that it wouldn't
Speaker 1: have a biochemistry similar to Earth life. I would say
Speaker 1: that we don't know. We don't know whether it would.
Speaker 1: I'd say that it would be separated by enough time
Speaker 1: that the likelihood of it having compatibility would be low,
Speaker 1: not that not that it's I would just say that
Speaker 1: I don't think I could comment on the likelihood. I
Speaker 1: don't know why we would we would know one way
Speaker 1: or another at any rate. Anyway, So yeah, well it
Speaker 1: would be because it's icy. Um, so it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: very cold. As we discussed before, Jupiter's radiation is completely nasty.
Speaker 1: People have talked about one way to protect ourselves if
Speaker 1: we were to set up a colony on Europa would
Speaker 1: be to drill under the ice. And water is actually
Speaker 1: pretty good at shielding from radiation because of the hydrogen
Speaker 1: content in water. Um, so if you drill deep enough
Speaker 1: in the ice, you would be protected on Europa, we think, yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: And so the Jupiter has other moons too, I mean
Speaker 1: there's there's Ganymede, which doesn't it doesn't have nearly as
Speaker 1: much radiation as Europa does have some magnetosphere as well,
Speaker 1: that's true, but there's not as much to do one.
Speaker 1: Have you ever been there? It was a slow place
Speaker 1: on a Saturday night and it's only Thursday morning. Ganymedes
Speaker 1: Gennamed is not a research prize like Europa is. Of course,
Speaker 1: there's and then there's like, well there's also a Calisto. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: which is which receives even less radiation to the point
Speaker 1: where you know, maybe we don't have as much of
Speaker 1: a research base there, but it could be another launching
Speaker 1: pad for further deep space exploration. I want to talk
Speaker 1: about one more really cool possibility and that Saturn's moon
Speaker 1: tighten r. Have you all read about Titans. Titans cool
Speaker 1: because it's sort of like planet oil, not oil, but hydrocarbons,
Speaker 1: you know. Uh So it's a planet that's full of
Speaker 1: we think methane and all these organic compounds, probably liquid
Speaker 1: lakes on the surface, and it has it's the only
Speaker 1: moon as far as I know, in our Solar system
Speaker 1: that has a dense atmosphere. Now, to be fair, when
Speaker 1: you say liquid lakes, we're talking liquid lakes and things
Speaker 1: like methane and ethane, not liquid water. Well, no, they
Speaker 1: think there might be some water, but we're not talking
Speaker 1: about all water. Yeah, it would be a lot of
Speaker 1: methane and stuff. Uh, so that's really cool. But it's freezing.
Speaker 1: It has low gravity, and it's let me talk about
Speaker 1: how cold it is. So the butchure on Titan surfaces
Speaker 1: about negative two degrees eighty nine degrees fahrenheit. That's a
Speaker 1: negative a hundred and seventy eight degrees celsius um in
Speaker 1: for some perspective, I just quickly looked up the lowest
Speaker 1: temperature ever recorded on Earth, that's ever recorded on Earth anywhere.
Speaker 1: That was a negative a hundred and twenty eight point
Speaker 1: six degrees fahrenheit or negative eighty nine point two degrees celsius,
Speaker 1: and that was in Vostok Station in Antarctica. Clearly, no
Speaker 1: no measurement has ever been taken. After I've told a
Speaker 1: really bad pun and Lauren has reacted because, let me
Speaker 1: tell you, there's no molecular movement in that room. The
Speaker 1: level of coldness is unimaginable. I mean, it's how cold
Speaker 1: this is. It's one thing they talked about is it's
Speaker 1: so cold that the atmosphere is just extremely thick. You know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a soupy atmosphere. You could you could
Speaker 1: wear wings and fly, you know, although you know it's
Speaker 1: I'm sure that we could work out the heat management
Speaker 1: system if we, you know, had the technology to get there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and there. But it's full of resources, and that that's
Speaker 1: what's cool. I mean, it's like it's your interplanetary gas station. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: some of the other planets may have lots of resources
Speaker 1: that would be very useful to us. It's just the
Speaker 1: question of is there any way of getting there and
Speaker 1: getting the resources to where we would need them in
Speaker 1: a way that makes sense. Like Urinus might have lots
Speaker 1: of helium three on it, but to get out there
Speaker 1: and to get back take a monumental effort. So on
Speaker 1: the other hand, I would not recommend colonizing anywhere near
Speaker 1: Neptune because that's where event Horizon happens, and if you've
Speaker 1: seen it, you should know very very poorly. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you just you don't do that. Okay, Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't have any problem going to Mars despite Mars attacks.
Speaker 1: But let's I think that wraps up our discussion here.
Speaker 1: So the interesting thing here is that I don't think
Speaker 1: we're going to be abandoning these dreams of colonization anytime student,
Speaker 1: and I really hope that we're able to see um
Speaker 1: live to see some of these come to fruition. And
Speaker 1: while we do feel skeptical about the Mars One initiative,
Speaker 1: maybe that is the one that works out. You know,
Speaker 1: it's too early for us to say. It may very
Speaker 1: well be that the ingenuity and determination the people who
Speaker 1: are on that program are up to the challenge of
Speaker 1: getting people on the planet and having them uh survive,
Speaker 1: and and really, if they are, we're going to find
Speaker 1: out so many amazing things that it's just gonna be
Speaker 1: a boon for for all of mankind. Really, whenever we go,
Speaker 1: and I think we will, it will be it's going
Speaker 1: to be pretty awesome. Yeah. So, I mean, I certainly
Speaker 1: hope it works out. You know, don't don't let our
Speaker 1: skepticism translate into us being like we shouldn't try. I
Speaker 1: think all of us believe we should try. We just
Speaker 1: want to make sure that every effort that has made
Speaker 1: is our best effort. I think at a certain point
Speaker 1: that trying is even more important than than than whether
Speaker 1: we succeed or not. Yeah, and only there in an
Speaker 1: immediate sense. How only concerns I have, of course are
Speaker 1: for people's safety. That's paramount obviously, and then to make
Speaker 1: sure that nothing we do ends up discouraging future generations
Speaker 1: from trying to look at how they mucked it up.
Speaker 1: Let's just let's just go to the bar, and I
Speaker 1: don't want that to happen. So so we're gonna sign
Speaker 1: off on this episode. But if you guys have anything
Speaker 1: to say about colonization space, what what you think are
Speaker 1: the best approaches, what what you think is uh the
Speaker 1: most likely scenario, or if you think it's just ridiculous,
Speaker 1: you should let us know. I want to hear everything.
Speaker 1: Let us know. Send us an email are address as
Speaker 1: FW thinking at discovery dot com or go to FW
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