1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: It is d day for Empire star Jesse Smilette. He 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: is on cross examination in a court of law. This 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: is after the star makes the risky decision to throw 4 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: the dice and take the stand in his own defense. 5 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Typically a defendant will not 6 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: take the stand because they cannot endure cross examination under 7 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: the old adage, better to remain silent and let people 8 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: assume you're lying than speak and confirm their suspicions. Well, 9 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: Smilett on the stand, but what if anything, does it prove? 10 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: Small at The star of hit series Empire claims he 11 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: was the victim of a racial and gay based hate 12 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: crime when he leaves his high rise luxury apartment at 13 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: two am for a subway in subzero temperatures. He claims 14 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: his assailants were waiting for him out in the cold 15 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: through bleach on him and tied a noose around his neck. 16 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: Is that true? The other problem with a defendant taking 17 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: the stand we all know, all you llegal eagles know 18 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: that the burden of proving a case is solely on 19 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: the defendant, on the state's shoulders. The defendant has to 20 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: prove nothing at trial, absolutely nothing. And I have had 21 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: cases where I put up my case and the defendant says, 22 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: we rest and don't. They don't put up anything because 23 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: they don't have a burden too. But once the defendant 24 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: takes the stand, even though it's not the law, the 25 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: burden seemingly shifts in the minds of the gerars too. 26 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: Is the defendant telling the truth, it becomes a litmus 27 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: test of truth versus lie. Again, I Mancy graces his 28 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: crime stories nice for being with us. First of all, guys, 29 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to our cut thority. 30 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: This is Charlie Dumar at CBS. The actor took center 31 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: stage at his own trial today, trying to convince jurors 32 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: he did not choreograph an attack on himself. The defense 33 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: attorney asking were you planning a hoax? Smolette saying no, 34 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: there was no hoax. Smolette also denied paying the Osendaro 35 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: brothers to buy supplies, and when asked why he didn't 36 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: call police, he said quote, I'm a black man in America. 37 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: I do not trust police. I was also a well 38 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: known figure at the time and openly gay. I wanted 39 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: to play a boxer. I wanted to play a superhero. 40 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: The moment I got beat. I became an expletive who 41 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: got whooped. Nearly three years ago, on a frigid January night, 42 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: Smilin told police that Pugh was the victim of a 43 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: racist and homophobic he crime. Guys, again, you're hearing Charlie 44 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: Jamarrows CBS describing what's happening in the courtroom with me 45 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we 46 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: know right now. Professor Brian Levin, our esteemed guest director 47 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: for the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism 48 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: at San Bernardino, co author of the Limits of Descent. 49 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon 50 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: and host of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ, San Diego. 51 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: Renowned psychiatrist joining us from the Atlanta Jurisdiction Doctor Angela 52 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: Arnold at Angela Arnold, MD, dot Com. Forensics expert Joseph 53 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of 54 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and start of another 55 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: new hit series, Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart. 56 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: But first, let's go to crime Online dot Com to 57 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: get a reporter Alexis Terres. Alexis has been on the 58 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: case from the very beginning. So Alexis Jesse Smilett takes 59 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: the stand. Now he's starting his cross examination. Explain to 60 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: me what happened on direct exam? Was Jesse Smilett? So 61 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: he spent quite a few hours first with his defense attorney. 62 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: The prosecutor just had a very had a very quick 63 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: point that he wanted to make. He went right in 64 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: on his relationship with the brothers. He wanted to know 65 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: who wait, wait, wait, who is he the defense lawyer 66 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: Smilette or the prosecutor? The prosecutor? Okay, so could you 67 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: rephrase place the prosecutor was able to question Smilette, he 68 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: went he went right for the relationship with the brothers 69 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: because this is the key to this whole case. Is 70 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: Jesse telling the truth? Did he were these brothers? Excuse me? 71 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: Are you on a first name basis with Jesse Smilett? 72 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: What do you expect him to come over for dinner 73 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: after the trial? Well, he's a Hollywood celebrity talking to me, 74 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: and you always feel like you're closed, like they're more 75 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: than just I don't people on the TV and after 76 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: watching and after him so would being a fan of it. Okay, see, 77 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: I never saw an empire. Don't hate me. I was 78 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: too busy working and raising my children, Alexis, But you 79 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: go ahead. So he takes not judging the stand, and 80 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: he explains his relationship with these brothers, because these are 81 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: the two he has said that he was attacked by 82 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: two men and that they were screaming this is mega 83 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: country and calling him homophobic flirts. Well, it ends up 84 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: it's people that he knows. In fact, it's people that 85 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: he has given money to, and in fact it's people 86 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: that he's been Wait a minute, Alexis, aren't you kind 87 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: of burying the lead? It's not just the two Sandaro brothers. 88 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: I'm they weren't just people that he knows. He claims 89 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: to have gone to a gay bathhouse with one of 90 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: them and had amerous activity. I guess I mean sex 91 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: in a private room at a bathhouse, don't you think, Alexis, 92 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean you're the investigative reporter that he would recognize 93 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: the guy he's been having sex with. Of course, the 94 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: Sendaro brother denies it, But how can both of those 95 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: be true? Well, he didn't recognize him. He said they 96 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: were wearing masks, and in fact, he didn't even identify 97 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: them both as black. When he was first being with cops. 98 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: He thought perhaps one he had lighter skins than the 99 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: police arrested. Didn't he say they were white wearing maga hats? Yes? 100 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: But they okay? So Alex did he say as attackers 101 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: were white or not? And it's but it's two thirty 102 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: in the morning. They were wearing masks, but he said 103 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: they were white. He did, Okay, you know what, I'm 104 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: not getting a clear picture, Alexis, Let's just start with 105 00:06:52,120 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: what did Jesse Smilette say on direct exam. He said 106 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: that he was having a physical relationship with one of 107 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: the brothers, that they had gone to gay bathhouses together. 108 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: He was also saying that he hired these two brothers 109 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: to train him to get in shape for a music video. 110 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: He said that the director or the creator of the 111 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: show Lee Daniels of Empire, had told him he was 112 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: that he was thirty pounds overweight and he needed to 113 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: lose weight. So he also said one of the brothers 114 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: told him that he could get him a special weight 115 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: loss pill or powder that could only come from Nigeria, 116 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: where these brothers come from and that's why he was 117 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: giving them money. That's why he had written them a 118 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: check for thirty five hundred dollars. It was to train 119 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: him to get him in shape, and that he was 120 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: texting them to try to get this illegal Nigerian weight 121 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: loss pill. And what pel is at an illegal Nigerian 122 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: weight loss I thought it was some kind of an 123 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: herbal supplement. Did he divolve that on the stand? I 124 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: don't recall if he said the exact name of what 125 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: it was called, but he said that they had told 126 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: him that they could get him something that was only 127 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: available in Nigeria, not in the United States that would 128 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: help him lose weight very quickly. So there's a weight 129 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: loss supplement that exists in Nigeria and we don't have 130 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: it in the US. I thought we had every weight 131 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: loss supplement known to man in the US. That's a 132 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: whole other can of worms. How did Jesse Smollett explain 133 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: the fact that when cops arrived at his apartment, he 134 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: refused to give them his cell phone to see who 135 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: he had been calling leading up to the attack. And 136 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: isn't it true that one hour and approximately ten minutes 137 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: before his hate crime attack, he was actually on the 138 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: phone with a Sendaro brothers. He has not explained that, 139 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: but he just said he didn't want to give the 140 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: police his phone because he didn't want them to misconstrue 141 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 1: anything that was in there that he had things to hide. Specifically, 142 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: he has said that he likes to drive around and 143 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: smoke a blunt, which is a joint, while he is filming, 144 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: and he didn't want them to know about anything that 145 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: he said about drugs, which was just marijuana. He said, Okay, again, 146 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: please use proper names because there's a lot of heyes 147 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: floating around in this case. Okay, you just said, mister 148 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: Smollett said, you just said that Smelett would smoke a blunt. Okay. 149 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: Isn't it also true? On the stand yesterday, Smlett admitted 150 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: that he would use cocaine with Osdaro brothers. He claimed 151 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: that he would use cocaine with him. Yeah, Crime stories 152 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Let's bring in the whole panel, Wendy Patrick. 153 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: How is it possible that he said he didn't want 154 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: the brothers to know he did blunt which is pot, 155 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: but yet he did crack, He did cocaine with them. 156 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: It isn't and that's one of the things that are 157 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: going to be able to consider now that he took 158 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: the stand and really laid it all out there. Remember, 159 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: when a criminal defendant takes the stand, they are allowed 160 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: to judge credibility as with any other witness. They're not 161 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing it if the defendant is just 162 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: sitting at the table availing himself of the right. He 163 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: remained silent. But once he's on there, everything he says 164 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: is going to be cross examined. And that question you 165 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: just asked, you bet, that's going to be asked back 166 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: in the deliberation room as well. Guys, take a listen 167 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: to Patrick Ellwood WG and Chicago Our Cut twenty nine, 168 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 1: Almost three years after he reported being attacked amid homophobic 169 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: and racial slurs, Actor Jesse Smolett took the stand in 170 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: his own defense today. While being questioned by his attorney, 171 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: Smolett described the early morning incident, saying he had gone 172 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: out to Walgreens to buy eggs, but it was closed, 173 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: so he opted for a subway sandwich store instead. On 174 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: his way home, Smolette says he crossed paths with two 175 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: men wearing ski masks, with one of them yelling and 176 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: homophobic slurs and saying he was in Maga country while 177 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: recognizing him as an actor on the TV show Empire, 178 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: Smalllett says he threw a punch in his defense but 179 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: doesn't know if it landed. He fell to the ground 180 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: and was kicked. He testified that after the attack he 181 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: didn't even know there was a noose around his neck 182 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: because quote, I was getting my ass whooped une. Okay, 183 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: that sounds fantastical to me, Doctor Angela Arnold psychiatrists could 184 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: join us out of Atlanta. For a black male to 185 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: have a noose tied around their neck, I mean that 186 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: brings up so many horrible connotationial hate images and connotations. 187 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: I would know if there was a news around my 188 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: neck and I would get it off immediately. And then, Nancy, 189 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: I agree with you, and learn to describe it as 190 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: he did as a as a Looney Tunes like hit. 191 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: That's very There's a word that we use, and the 192 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: word is incongruent. Those two things are not congruent with 193 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: each other. For someone to put a noose around a 194 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,479 Speaker 1: black man's neck, like you said, has so many connotations 195 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: to it, so many racial connotations to it. But then 196 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: to say it was a Looney Tunes like act, that 197 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: those two things don't mesh with each other. Yeah, it 198 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: goes to behavior on the stand. Professor Brian Levin, I 199 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe that a black male, 200 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: familiar with racial hatred that has torn our country apart 201 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: for so many years, to be so dismissive somebody wrapping 202 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: a noose around your neck and then referring it to 203 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: referring to it as a Looney Tunes event. Not only that, 204 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: it would have been far more believable had he thrown 205 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: that noose off his neck and ran from the scene. 206 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that would have been believable. But he looked. 207 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: Here's the thing that I got to say. Here, he 208 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: came up with an excuse for everything. They weren't good excuses. 209 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: They were paper excuses that crumbled with a variety of 210 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: facts that came out. He said, like his creative director 211 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: or something told him to keep it on or something 212 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: like that. His manager. Hold on, let me explore that 213 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: Alexis terres Chuck. Isn't it true that on the stand 214 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: Jesse Smillett, the Star of Empire, revealed once he was 215 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: confronted with the photo the video surveillance of him coming 216 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: into his high rise after the attack. The news was 217 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: one way. When the cops got there, their body came 218 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: reveals it's another way. And he has first said I 219 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: never tampered with the rope. Then when shown the video comparison, 220 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: he went, oh, yeah, I did take it up at 221 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: my manager telling me to put it back on for 222 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: when the cops got there. Didn't that happen? Elect Yes, 223 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: And he said that that his manager told him don't 224 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: hamper with evidence. So he retied it the way that 225 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: it had been tied around him what he claimed. But 226 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't tied that way when he came into the 227 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: lobby of his high rise. No, it was haying were 228 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: draped around his neck. Professor Levin, go ahead, place. Look 229 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: here's how I look at it. I could just take 230 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: a macro step here because it looked at the various 231 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: Q and A existed on cross. He came up with 232 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: a little scrap of paper, if you will, for everything 233 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: that came up and held it out as a shield. Right. 234 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: But here's the thing where just bear with me on this. Okay, 235 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: here's this thing where I think he's trying to throw 236 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: that hail Mary pass and that is. Look, two things. 237 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: One have the credibility of the brothers come into question, 238 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: and there were some issues with that, right, But his 239 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: main point was, Look, I don't trust the Chicago police 240 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: and leaders should you, because I'm a social justice activist. 241 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: And when you have fifty five percent of African Americans 242 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: having concerns about calling the police, whether we think the 243 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: evidence lines up, when you have that kind of landscape, 244 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: if you can get to a juror to take that doubt, 245 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: which to us looks incongruent and frankly preposterous for people 246 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: who have viewed things or had experiences through a different lens. Right, 247 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: remember the OJ case. Now, in that case, to spare 248 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: with you for one second, in that case, we actually 249 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: had a guy who was really discredited. Right, Remember the 250 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: detective who said he never used the N word. Here, 251 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: you don't have that, but you still have cases from 252 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: the past where we had police lie in Chicago about 253 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: the killing of a teenager. Right. So what I'm saying 254 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: to is that's the past. In the words, he might 255 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: get the goals might be blocked for all the other 256 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: jurors except for that one that might have come in 257 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: with the seat of doubt about the whole system, and 258 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: that's what I think he's trying to exploit if he 259 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: can for that possible juror or two who might be 260 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: willing to look at it from that angle. If you 261 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: look at just you know, the evidence out of a 262 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: box and just didn't know the background, you go, this 263 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: is preposterous. But as you know, and that's what I 264 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: wanted to say. One of the exciting things about being 265 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: on your show as a prosecutor, how do you handle 266 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: that one? I think the way I would handle it 267 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: is to point out the glaring inconsistency. Jesse Smillett a 268 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: black mail in America, a gay black mail in America 269 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: claiming that another gay black mail in America performed a 270 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: hate crime on him, Smelett because he's st it's a 271 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: gay black mail in America. That doesn't make sense. That 272 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense at all. Does it make sense to you, 273 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: Professor Levin, that one gay black mail would attack another 274 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: gay black mail. No, it's out of hate because he's 275 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: a gay black mail. That doesn't make sense to me. 276 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. But what I'm saying 277 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: to you is I think that that prosecutor has to 278 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,479 Speaker 1: really hit that home over and over again, insistent in 279 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: consistency one, in consistency two, in consistency three, to try 280 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: and get over a presumption that may be in the 281 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: heads of some of the jurors that the police in 282 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: Chicago don't play it straight. I think you're right. He's 283 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: got to fight it. He's got to fight that potential 284 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: problem that he's got, you know. Back to you, Alexis Terrest, 285 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: I understand that originally he claimed that he left his 286 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: apartment to go and get a subway sandwich. Now we're 287 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: hearing on the stand that he decided to go out 288 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: and buy eggs at Walgreens because the Osnari brothers told 289 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: him to for weight training purposes. And when Walgreens was closed, 290 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: that's when the whole subway sandwich thing happened. This is 291 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: the first time hearing about Walgreens, the eggs. The eggs 292 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: and Walgreens trip is a new part of the story. 293 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: We had not heard that before. And that's what he 294 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: testified to do. He said he was trying to lose weight. 295 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: That's why he called them. Because what has been established 296 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: is that there is a phone call that he made 297 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: about an hour and a half before the attack to 298 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: the brothers. So this is his explanation for that. Instead 299 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: of I called them to arrange to come beat me up. Okay, 300 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: in an hour and a half, we're going to meet 301 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: on the corner of the street, it was Hey, guys, 302 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: that's true. Well, I guess at that point, at twelve 303 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: to thirty in the night, I'm starving. What could I 304 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: eat that would make me lose weight? Okay? The obvious 305 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: answer is nothing. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to you. 306 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: Joseph S. Goot Morgan, Professor Forensics, There are so many 307 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: forensics issues. First of all, all the video, I think 308 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: Levin Professor Brian Levin is right. In order to tackle 309 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: to surmount any type of fear or prejudice toward the police, 310 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: you've got to point out to this jury all of 311 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: Smolett's inconsistencies. And I would start with the video and 312 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: I'll circle back to the eggs. But the video showing 313 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: not only away his rope had been adjusted and tied 314 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: around his neck more like a noose for when the 315 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: cops got there, but also the video of Smelette doing 316 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: a dry run with Osandaro brothers in the days leading 317 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: up to the attack. What about that video Joe Scott. Yeah, 318 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: and you're you know what you're what you're proposing is 319 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: that the jury, uh, you know, you can't believe you're 320 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: lying eyes. It's it's something that that is concrete relative 321 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: to visual evidence, which is very important in a case 322 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: like this where he is saying absolutely one thing and 323 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: the video evidence defeats it relative to what the jury 324 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: is viewing before them. How do you diminish that in 325 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: any way? Are you going to take the extra step 326 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: now as a defense and say, well, well, all of 327 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: this video, you know, don't believe it. It was all 328 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's all fantastical. It's it's been it's been manipulated, 329 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: and that can be implied. They can imply anything that 330 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: they want to, because remember, at the end of the day, 331 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: all they're trying to do is find one jury member 332 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: there that they can implant reasonable doubting. But with physical 333 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: evidence like that, you know, you mentioned the rope as well, 334 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: with it being manipulated. And this is another thing that's 335 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: so super bizarre here is when you begin to think 336 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: about his manager telling him that he needs to take 337 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: this critical piece of evidence and place it back around 338 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: his neck and This goes to something that people in 339 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: Hollywood are always talking about the optics of things. You know, 340 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: how do they appear? Or we want to be a 341 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: master thespian here and present for the cops as some 342 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: kind of sympathetic character as they walk through the door. 343 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: And thing bit it, Nancy, is that there are so 344 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: many people that surround this environment. They're endearing so much 345 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: violence at the hands of one another and and other people. 346 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: And this guy, as doctor Levin had pointed out, is 347 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: using these weak, weak things that he's putting forth as 348 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: a shield and it's it's horre. Both listen to Alexis Dusha. 349 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: It comes out that the jury has seen video of 350 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: Jesse Smolett, the Empire star, walking around the area where 351 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: the attack occurred on Jan twenty seven. The attack occurred 352 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: in the early morning hours on Jan twenty nine, so 353 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: less than forty eight hours before the so called hate 354 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: crime attack occurred. There is video a Smlett walking in 355 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: the same spot with Osandaro brothers doing a dry run 356 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: of the attack. How do you get around that, Well, 357 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: it is his neighborhood, so he lives there with that. 358 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: So this is you know, anybody would take a stroll 359 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: although it is absolutely freezing cold in Chicago. But if 360 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: you live in Chicago, you're fine walking around Chicago when 361 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: it is freezing cold. But the police, he said that 362 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: he testified. Smilett testified on the stand that he would 363 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: often get in his car with one or two of 364 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: the brothers and dry around and smoke marijuana. He would 365 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: do that, and that seemed to be what he was 366 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: saying he was doing two days before that that was 367 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: something they'd always done in the past, and it was 368 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: just a way that they chilled. They were not driving. 369 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: They were walking near the scene of the alleged attack 370 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: with the two Osandaro brothers, and the brothers paid a 371 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: bill at a beauty supply for some of They had 372 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: to get a rope, they had to get masks, they 373 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: got gloves somewhere. They got bleached, they say, with one 374 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: hundred dollars Bill Smolett gave them. And there's a video 375 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: of them doing that. Guys, take a listen to our 376 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: cut thirty one. The actor described as attacker saying it 377 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: felt like something out of a Looney Tunes Adventures. It 378 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: felt like someone massive coming up to me, not enough 379 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: time to think. This person felt significantly larger than me, 380 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: dressed in dark clothes a ski mask. Smolett told the 381 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: jury he fought back, saying quote, I would like to 382 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: think I ended a punch. I know I certainly threw one. 383 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: Smolette was asked why he never called police. He responded, 384 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm a black man in America. I don't trust police. 385 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: Smilette said after a threatening letter was sent to him 386 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: at the Empire Studio, executives got him security and took 387 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: the threat seriously. A counter to the special prosecutors claimed 388 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: that Smilette planned the attack because he was unhappy with 389 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: the response the letter received. I'm ready to do what 390 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: I gotta do. I'm ready to do what I gotta do. 391 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: Alexa Streschuk tell me about the death threat or the 392 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: hate mail that Smolette got at the Empire Studios, and 393 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: I find it more than coincidental that this letter exists, 394 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: whether Smilette wrote it to himself or not. And the 395 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: Osendaro brothers say Smolette wanted to do this attack because 396 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: his studio did not take the hate mail seriously, and 397 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: he wanted to bring attention to himself to get more 398 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: money in his next contract. So that's the Osendara brothers 399 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: story and the Hey mail exists, and the studio was 400 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: told about the Hey mail, and the studio did not 401 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: give him a race one that he wanted. Anyway, what 402 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: about it that seems to corroborate what the Osdara brothers 403 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: are saying. So the studio did take it seriously so 404 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: that it was a picture of a man with a 405 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: new surround or a person event with a staund It 406 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: was a stake figure and with a new surround their necks. 407 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: So this thing, you know, one of the worst images 408 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: in out there. But the studio offered to give Smollette security. 409 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: They were worried about him. They said, we will provide 410 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: security for you. He sat on the scan. I didn't 411 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: want their security because my schedule during the day is 412 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: I like, I come to work in the morning and 413 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: then at lunchtime I leave, I drive around the neighborhood, 414 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: I smoke marijuana and then I don't want those security 415 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: to see that. So he then he says the brothers 416 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,239 Speaker 1: begged him to let them be his security, and he 417 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: didn't want them to be security either. So that's part 418 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: of his defense that they wanted to work for him, 419 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: and that's maybe why they attacked him as well, because 420 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: he wouldn't hire them as security. Hey, Nancy, this is Wendy. 421 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: This is one of the things we're all talking about 422 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: is once he's taken the stand, it's reasonable interpretations of 423 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: the evidence. What we're establishing is that the evidence is 424 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: not consistent with mister Smollett's testimony. It's more consistent as 425 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: it's coming out and as we're all rehashing it here 426 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: with what the brothers are saying, and when the jury 427 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: considers that, that's going to be the question. You know, 428 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: sometimes actors over or underestimate their ability to narrate events. 429 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: We've seen that in several high profile trials involving Hollywood 430 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: actors that are either very good at and very persuasive 431 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: or not, but they think they are. And sometimes we 432 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: wonder whether that's why someone took the stand. But his 433 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: interpretation of the evidence is not consistent with all of 434 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: the other circumstances that we're discussing. It is, including this 435 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: hate mail that alexis just so eloquently put out there. 436 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: The way that was described is consistent with what the 437 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: brother said, So it might just come down to that, 438 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: to the corroboration and the consistency. Guys, take a listen 439 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: to our cut thirty three. This is Charlie Demarts, CBS 440 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: News Chicago. Similette said after a threatening letter was sent 441 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: to him at the Empire Studio, executives got him security 442 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: and took the threat seriously. A counter to the special 443 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: prosecutors claimed that Smilette planned the attack because he was 444 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: unhappy with the response that letter received. The actor also 445 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: told the jury that he would do drugs with abel Osandaro, 446 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: and the two head of physical relationship. He said during 447 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: a bathhouse encounter there was some touching. Abel denies those claims. 448 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: Abel denies those claims. So it's boiling down to a 449 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: he say, they say, let's talk about the various inconsistencies, 450 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: because I think Professor Brian Levin is correct. The only 451 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: way the state's going to win this case is if 452 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: they show the jury very clearly a visual deer enclosing 453 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: arguments as they verbally argue those inconsistencies at the same time, 454 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: a double whammy. They see it, they read it, and 455 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: they hear it when they go back to that jury 456 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: deliberation room. That's what they're going to be thinking about. 457 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: The inconsistencies. Just got Morgan, Professor Forensics, which inconsistencies stand 458 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: out the most to you? Well, I think that what 459 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: we have to consider here. I think that one of 460 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: the key pieces here is this letter Nancy. It was 461 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: essentially constructed as a result of magazine cutouts, if you will. 462 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: And you know the Postal the US Postal Inspectors who 463 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: are very good at this sort of thing, as well 464 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: as the FBI probably their Question Documents section really got 465 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: on this thing, and these are This is different than 466 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: examining handwriting, for instance. This actually comes into where you're 467 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: having to examine the margins of these cutouts and trying 468 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: to match them up, either include them or exclude them 469 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: as part of evidence. But I think it goes to 470 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: a bigger point here where why would this one individual 471 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: out of all the individuals in Hollywood receive a particular 472 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: letter like this? Does he does? He drag up that 473 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,239 Speaker 1: much hatred out there among the American public that he 474 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: is going to be targeted. And so this evidence that 475 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: they're going to submit and that they're going to be 476 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: discussing in trial, the jury is going to examine that, 477 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: and they're thinking, you know, look, out of all the people. 478 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: You know, why would he be targeted? Why is he 479 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: such a polarizing figure in this? And I just I 480 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: don't see it. I don't see it holding water, you know, 481 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: moving forward, And then you throw the video evidence in here. 482 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: And to Alexis's point relative to people in Chicago being 483 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: used to the cold, yeah, they are used to the cold, 484 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: being out walking around, but they also are aware of 485 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: how deadly the cold is. We're talking about temperatures, Nancy, 486 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: that are sub teens at this point. The people in 487 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: Chicago are smart enough to know to stay indoors. You 488 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: don't go out looking for subway sandwiches and eggs and 489 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: whatever in the hell else he's looking for. It just 490 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't marry up the physical evidence that they have 491 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: and all of the circumstantial evidence crime stories with Nancy 492 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: Grace incident true. Alexis terres chuck that regarding this hate 493 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: mail Jesse Smilett claims he got at the Empire Studios, 494 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: the Postal Inspection Service closes their case and to Jesse 495 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: Smilette's alleged hate mail, they determined that the hate mail, 496 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: the Return of Jess was simply scrawled MAGA, never contained 497 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: any rising or any other dangerous outer. They said, as 498 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, it's much more likely that whoever 499 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: opened the letter, Jesse Smilett, had taken a tail on 500 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: all at some point. That's what they said. The postal service, 501 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: you think they got a dog in the fight. They 502 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: don't care. They're just trying to deliver the mail for 503 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: peace sake, so they couldn't care less. And this was 504 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: their opinion. They closed the case. They said, at most 505 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: Smilett took a tail and all before he opened the letter. Yes, correct, 506 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: they did close the case. But the studio did take 507 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: it seriously. And also with regard to his wile Are 508 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: you saying that what difference does it make? Because he 509 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: has been say so, the studio tickets seriously. They offered 510 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: him security. He turned down the security. But then he's 511 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: saying the brothers offered to be his security. Like it 512 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: just isn't connecting, man, Now, I get it. So they 513 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: offered him security for free, he turned that down. But 514 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: yet he was talking to the brothers about being his bodyguards. See, 515 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: I thought the brothers, he's I mean, their brothers wanted 516 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: to be a bodyguard, but that he wasn't going to 517 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: hire them. And I just did get to quick a 518 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: quick point champion. Okay, Now, if the letter said maga, 519 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: first of all, I think that a celebrity could in fact, 520 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: he even won. That's not like total a A list 521 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: right could get a hate mail. But here's this thing, 522 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: what do we all get hate mail? Lemon? I got it. 523 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: Why don't you get online? I bet you've got some 524 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: hate mail online? I get some routinely. Yeah, I'll get it. 525 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 1: In the letter though, it says magot. Just bear with 526 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: me though, because we're talking about kinds of forensic let's 527 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: look at it, just a slightly nuanced version here. Though, 528 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: he gets the letter stick figure noose and it says maga. Okay, 529 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: then he's attacked by folks who have a noose and 530 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: Maga hats at like two in the morning when it's freezing. 531 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: For me, that's just a bridge too far. Had it 532 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: just been a letter that said I hate you, you're 533 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: you know hey, you die right? But it's too close together. 534 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: It's like the dog. It's too much of a coincidence. 535 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: The dog gave my homework and look through a real 536 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: bite marks. You see what I'm saying. It's too it's 537 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: too consistent. So what I'm saying in most of the 538 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: stuff that we're just seeing, you were real inconsistencies. The 539 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: one place where we see a consistency a letter and 540 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: then at like two in the morning or one in 541 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: the morning, when it's freezing, some folks with a nise 542 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: and Maga hats. It just sounds too staged because it is. 543 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: And it turns out the attackers are people you've been 544 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: paying that you do a drive run with too, about 545 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: thirty six hours before the attack. Hey, you know what 546 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: I want to I want to talk about that. They 547 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: likelihood that it would be anybody else beside Smellette. The letter, 548 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: as eleven points out, stick figure with a nice from 549 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: MAGA and then Sudley his two friends and he's had 550 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: sex encounters with according to him, attack him, put a 551 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: news around his neck and he climbs. They they're yelling 552 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: this is a mega country and wearing a MAGA hat. 553 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: But because one quicktion or that even if that letter 554 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 1: was legitimately a hate mongering letter from someone who hated him, right, 555 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: he still played it with allegedly he still allegedly played 556 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: that script. So even if that letter was legitimately a 557 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: threatening letter, the fact that he then ran with it 558 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: as kind of the script for the play that that 559 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: actually petered out. I think it's damny either way. It's 560 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: whether he whether he made the letter up himself, okay, 561 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: but even if he didn't, he still could have orchestrated 562 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: it around that letter to make it more believable. Either way, 563 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: I think that's a dead end. Again. I just don't 564 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: see how it can get around the dry run caught 565 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: on video. I asked Joseph jo Scott Morgan what he 566 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: thought was the most serious evidence, and I want to 567 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: talk to you guys about what you think is the 568 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: most serious inconsistency. What about it? Wendy Patrick, Nancy, I 569 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: think the most serious inconsistency is all about how this 570 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: actually came about in terms of what he was doing 571 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: out on the street, because everything else stems from that. 572 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: When you look at the motivation he would have had 573 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: for making this up, that's one thing you can imagine 574 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: if the career was boiling, wanted to draw attention, never 575 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: thought it would go to the police. They never thought 576 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: it would go to the police. Component explains so much 577 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: on either side. It would explain why they were willing 578 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: to take risks, why they were willing to have their 579 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: stories diverged. Why but he didn't get it together. If 580 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: you never expect to have anybody cross examining your statement, 581 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: you're not going to take those types of precautions. So 582 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: if you look at the underlying motivation behind the act, 583 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if they don't hit that hard 584 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: con a closing argument. Whether the prosecutor says, this is 585 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: why you have all those blue ends because nobody accepted 586 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: us to have tied them up the way that we did, 587 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: That's what I think this case is going to come 588 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: down to, Doctor Angie Arnold. I find the subway sandwich 589 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: slash Walgreens argument from a strictly personal point of view, 590 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: to be the least believable and the dry run. So 591 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: he's having sex encounters with one of the brothers that 592 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: deny it and a bathhouse, and he's with them thirty 593 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: six hours before, and he's on the phone with them 594 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: an hour and ten minutes before they attack him, yet 595 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: he doesn't recognize them. There's that, and then the going 596 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: out at two am for a subway sandwich. That's what 597 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: he said to start with. He never mentioned Walgreens until now. 598 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: That's what he told the cops he went out at 599 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: two A. I mean, doctor, Angie, what do you do 600 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: it too am when you're hungry? Well, I don't wake 601 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: up at two am, but let's just pretend you did it. 602 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: I would go down to my kitchen and grab something 603 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: such as, um, chocolate I mean, I mean, or soup 604 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: or a ballar cereal. What would you do too? I 605 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: am hungry. This happened to me the other day. I 606 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: didn't need a lot the room the day, went downstairs, 607 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: rumming through the refrigerator and ate what was kind of there? 608 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,720 Speaker 1: An edible, a little a little cheese wrap with some stuff, 609 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: and am a can of soup? Wendy, what about it? 610 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, I'm just getting up at two am, 611 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: as you and Jackie know, because I do so much 612 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: East Coast media in the morning. But one thing I 613 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: wanted to point out is I would make sure my 614 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: my fridge is stocked, and I certainly wouldn't go out 615 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: and polar vortex. That was also unbelievable to me. But 616 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,439 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that mister Smollette has tried 617 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: to turn around by basically saying, look, I'm not like 618 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm trying to evade the question of what you ate 619 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: it two am? Well, I usually just have coffee at 620 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: two am because I've just awoken. So my cereal comes 621 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: at cereals thirty and it's already in my fridge or 622 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: in my cupboard. I would never go out in the 623 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: middle of the night to forage for food. Just Scott, 624 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: what about it? Dark chocolate and cheese, man, basically a 625 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: garbage gut. Whatever I can find, I'll just eat it, 626 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: even it's like if it's really old, if it's expired, 627 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: a piece of cheese and glass and milk, whatever's left 628 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: over from sumer Alexis, what what is it? What's the 629 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,919 Speaker 1: go to two am rinella bar? We have lots, of course, 630 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: you're all California healthy best, You're a great cook, so 631 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 1: you have better options to choose from than the rest 632 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: of us. I mean this whole going out and literally, 633 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: when when Wendy Patrick said a polar vortex, there was 634 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: a polar vortex, it was sub zero tempts and Alexis, 635 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: isn't it correct that this whole Walgreen buying eggs at 636 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: Walgreen story just came up. I wouldn't think of going 637 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: to buy eggs at Walgreens. I'd go to a grocery 638 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: store for eggs. But what ever, didn't that just happen 639 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: on the stand, it did, which makes me think that 640 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,919 Speaker 1: the prosecutors perhaps can go back to although that it's 641 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: been a couple of years now to get video evidence, 642 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: but there's no video evidence of this, and perhaps the 643 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: defense at the time would have gotten the video evidence 644 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: to say, look, here he's in Walgreen because everything else 645 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: has been on video and it was closed and he 646 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: walked there first. Guys, we're attacking inconsistencies in Smilett's story. 647 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if the jury is going to see past 648 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: all of the claims Smolette is making. We'll see. We 649 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. You see Grace crime story signing 650 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: off good bye friend.