1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, 6 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: old listeners, Wherever you are in the world, it's so 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: great to have you here. Back for another episode. We've 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: got another bonus episode for you today. These shorter episodes 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: are a little bit different from our usual deep dives. 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: Think of them as like little psychology snack breaks, where 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 1: we unpack a singular term, singular theory, or psychological concept 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: that might be misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually online. 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: Terms that we might not be able to do like 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: a full fifty minute episode on but I still really 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: want to cover. And today's topic it actually is a 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: big one. For a many episode, We're gonna talk about perfectionism. 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: You know what I realized the other day. I realized 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: I have been doing this podcast for nearly five years. 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: I have never just done a standalone episode purely on perfectionism, 20 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: which is ironic because it's probably the thing that I 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: like struggle with more than anything else. You have no 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,639 Speaker 1: idea how many podcast episodes I have recorded that will 23 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: never see the light of day because I didn't think 24 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: they were good enough. It doesn't It's probably more than that, 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: and that's not even including the scripts. You know how 26 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: many ideas that I have that I've never acted on 27 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: because I'm too afraid to start. How many hours I 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: spend thinking about how to be good at something and 29 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: never actually doing anything about it. I probably don't need 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: to tell you. It's an exhausting feeling. Perfectionism is an 31 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: exhausting state of mind, and I want to talk about 32 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: it today. Broadly speaking, perfectionism is basically characterized by the 33 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: need for excessively high standards and the need for everything 34 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: to be flawless. It's not a mental health condition, but 35 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: it is kind of like a personality trait almost that 36 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: a lot of us have. It is one of those 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: traits that, in all honesty, sounds kind of good at first. 38 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: When someone says I'm a perfectionist, You know, we don't 39 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: always think poorly of them. We think they're really good 40 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: at things, they work really hard, they have high standards, 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: they care deeply about what they do. I am sure. 42 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: So many people have been asked in job interviews, you know, 43 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: what's your worst trait, and they've said perfectionist because they 44 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: know it kind of makes them sound good, and that's 45 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: why people are so often applauded for it. They're applauded 46 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: for these excessive high standards, like it's a badge of honor. 47 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: I will work harder than anyone because I am never 48 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: able to prove I'm good enough to myself. Underneath perfectionism, 49 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: it's not about excellence. It's often about fear. It's about 50 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: the underlying, constant worry that you're going to fall short, 51 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: that if you are not perfect, you are not enough, 52 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 1: you have no value, your life lacks, meaning people will 53 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: never love you. It gets pretty psychologically heavy pretty quickly. 54 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: So many of us live with that kind of pressure, 55 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: especially in our twenties and thirties, when everything feels like 56 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be figured out ahead of schedule. A 57 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two study of young people aged sixteen to 58 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: twenty five actually found that eighty five percent of participants 59 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: identified as having perfectionist traits, particularly around academic achief. But 60 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: it can be so many things. It can be obsessing 61 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: over the right career, how your body looks, how your 62 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: relationship looks, your timeline. Basically, we've learnt to equate achievement 63 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: with external appearances and external value and therefore self worth. 64 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: But the reality is perfectionism doesn't drive success as much 65 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: as it actually drives exhaustion. It is not the superpower 66 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: that we all believe it is. Before we go further, 67 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: we actually need to talk about the main types of perfectionism. 68 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: There is not just one. It is a lot more 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: complex than just wanting things to be good. There are 70 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: actually three main strains or versions of this trait. The 71 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: first one is self oriented perfectionism. This is when you 72 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: set your own impossible standards, and it's about an internal 73 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: drive to prove to yourself that you can control your life, 74 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: that you have value, that you can do good things. 75 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: You're the one telling yourself that you can't make mistakes. 76 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: You're the one who has this relentless internal critic that 77 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: is never satisfied no matter how well you do. Then 78 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: there is the other oriented perfectionist. This one's a little 79 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: bit different. It's when you hold the people around you 80 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: to the same impossible standards you hold yourself to Maybe 81 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: this shows up in your relationships, friendships, at work. You 82 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: want the world to be perfect. You want people to 83 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: push themselves the way you push yourself. You expect others 84 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: to meet your level of precision care, and that can 85 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: cause a lot of tension and disappointment when they don't. 86 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: It also drives you to try and lead by example. 87 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: So older siblings, sports captains, bosses, even parents get this 88 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 1: feeling a lot. And finally, we have socially prescribed perfectionism. 89 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: This is the one that's become increasingly massive in recent years. 90 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: It is the feeling that everyone else is perfect, everyone 91 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: else expects you to be perfect. It's the feeling that 92 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: you're constantly being watched, judged, evaluated, and so you have 93 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: to keep up, you have to look the part. Socially 94 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: prescribed perfectionism is deeply tied to our current culture of course, 95 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: social media comparison, our online culture. This constant subtle pressure 96 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: to perform, this sense of being visible, and that is 97 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 1: why this form of perfectionism has grown so significantly over time. 98 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: There was a twenty nineteen review published in the journal 99 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: Psychological Bulletin which looked at changes in levels of perfectionism 100 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: between nineteen eighty nine and twenty sixteen in the US, 101 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,119 Speaker 1: in the UK, and in Canada, using college students as 102 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: the participant group. What they found was that, yes, all 103 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: types of perfectionism rose over time. Socially prescribed perfectionism, though, 104 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: has risen so significantly such that it is the most 105 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: common form of perfectionism that we currently see, and the 106 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: researchers noted this as a concern because what this indicates 107 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: is that young people, people in their teens in their twenties, 108 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: are becoming increasingly more sensitive to external pressures, and they 109 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: are finding it more difficult than previous generations to cope 110 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: and to recenter themselves. Here is the final twist of 111 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: the knife here. Socially prescribed perfectionism is actually the most 112 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: debilitating of all three types of perfectionism, and wider research 113 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: consistently connects it to pretty major health concerns, anxiety, depression, 114 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: even eating disorders. Of course, you know, we're constantly measuring 115 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: our worth through others, through people's expectations, through these metrics 116 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: of success. Unless you are the very best in every 117 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: domain and dimension of life, you are falling short, So 118 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: you may as well be the worst. Perfectionism is so 119 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: harmful in that way because it deeply embodies black and 120 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: white thinking. Either I'm number one or I'm nothing, Either 121 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: I get everything right or I should give up. This 122 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: raises the stakes so high that we actually can't operate 123 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: under these conditions, and so you procrastinate, you avoid starting, 124 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: You work yourself to the point of no return. You 125 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: become more obsessive about what other people think, until you 126 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: can't achieve anything. Now here's where perfect gets really sneaky, 127 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: because in our culture, perfectionism is often disguised as discipline, 128 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: and so even when it feels bad, it looks good, 129 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: and we convince ourselves that it should feel good as well. 130 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: We are hard working, we are committed, we are detailed orientated. 131 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: These things are all admirable except actually, a lot of us, 132 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are born and raised perfectionists, 133 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: are starting to realize that, like the dream we are 134 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: sold by, this trait is a complete lie, and actually 135 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: we will never ever get to a point where we 136 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: are actually satisfied with what we have. It just keeps 137 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: us in the cycle. And now, discipline, being hard working, 138 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: those are great traits. So how do we tell the 139 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: difference between this insatiable need to be the best and 140 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: to never make mistakes, and this desire to truly work 141 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: hard for something and to really be passionate. We tell 142 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: the difference through motivation. What is our motivation. Discipline is 143 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: motivated by growth. We want to do well because we 144 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: care about whatever it is we're doing, and we like 145 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 1: the challenge. Whether we fail or not, We obviously want 146 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: to succeed, but the process is something that we are 147 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: invigorated by, excited by enjoying. Perfectionism is motivated by fear. 148 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: We feel as though we have to do this, we 149 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: have to do well, we have to push ourselves otherwise 150 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: we are worthless. No one wakes up one day and 151 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: just decides they're going to start being terrified of mistakes. 152 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: Like most of our deep rooted psychological patterns, perfectionism begins early. 153 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: It begins when we feel we needed to earn love, 154 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: whether that was from family, from friends, from mentors, from whoever. 155 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: It was a lot of us grow up learning consciously 156 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: or unconsciously. Love or approval is earned, maybe you earn 157 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: it through good grades, good behavior, achievements, being the easy child. 158 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,239 Speaker 1: Over time, that creates this core belief love is conditional. 159 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: You only deserve to enjoy life, and you only deserve 160 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: to enjoy love or to have it when you perform, 161 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: when you get it right. So psychologists call this conditional regard. 162 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: It is one of the strongest predictors of perfectionist tendencies 163 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: later in life. Research published in the Journal of Personality 164 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: found that when parents express affection or approval only when 165 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: their children meet expectations and when they withdraw it when 166 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: they fail, those children are more likely to internalize a 167 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: sense of conditional worth. They grow up feeling that mistake 168 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: equals deep psychological rejection and that to be loved they 169 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: have to constantly strive and achieve. Another study published in 170 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: I Think It Was two thousand and five found that 171 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: adolescents who were exposed to this kind of unconditional sorry, 172 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: conditional parenting, conditional love showed higher levels of self critical, perfectionism, 173 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: and internalized pressure. Even years down the line, this part 174 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: of them became fundamental to how they saw themselves and 175 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: how they operated and how they showed up years and 176 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: years into the future. Another element of this is also 177 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: the role of insecurity and self worth. It's not just 178 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: about love, it's about how you see yourself as valuable 179 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: if at your core, you don't feel inherently worthy or 180 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: good or seen. If you've internalized the belief that I'm 181 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: only good when I achieve or I have output, Perfectionism 182 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: is a way to compensate for what you feel like 183 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: you're lacking. I relate to this deeply. I didn't fit 184 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: in growing up. I didn't really have good friends. I 185 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: wasn't hot, I wasn't popular, I really wasn't anything special. 186 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: That I could work hard and I could get good grades, 187 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: and so that pursuit. I knew this about myself. I 188 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: knew I could push myself. That became my identity, and 189 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: it became a way to feel good about myself in 190 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: an environment where I previously didn't and where I didn't 191 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: have a role, and where I didn't belong, And it 192 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: was deeply protective of my ego. This is something that 193 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: humanistic psychologists like Carl Rogers have written about for decades. 194 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: When somebody's self worth is based on external things, the 195 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: authentic self gets replaced with this ideal self. That's the 196 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: version of us that we're always st chasing, wanting to be, 197 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: but we never quite feel like we will get there. 198 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: It's a big fat lie right. We have this idea 199 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: that if we just extend, push, work, do more, we 200 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: will get to a place of satisfaction. That is a lie. 201 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: It is a mental Ponzi scheme that tells you to 202 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: invest more, that tells you just to get to the 203 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: next target and you'll finally feel good, but never rewards you. 204 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: The final reason we develop perfectionism is actually really about control. 205 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: I don't feel like a lot of people talk about 206 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: it from this angle, but we're going to consider this 207 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: deeply in just a second after the shortbreak, stay with us. 208 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: Perfectionism can sometimes develop as a way not just to 209 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: feel love, not just to feel worthy, but to manage 210 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: our anxiety or the unpredictability of life, because it gives 211 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: this mental impression that if we just work hard enough, 212 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: if we just check over things a million times, if 213 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: we rehearse everything, have a million to do lists, we 214 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: can control whatever life throws at us. Perfectionism is actually 215 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: really deeply aligned with an intolerance for uncertainty. We've spoken 216 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: about this before, but our intolerance for uncertainty is this 217 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: extra feeling of distress that we face when we understand 218 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: that something is unpredictable or unknown. Some of us are 219 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: more intolerant than others. Some of us face increasing or 220 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: more anxiety compared to others. If you've learned that unpredictable 221 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: situations often lead to pain like conflict, rejection, criticism that 222 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: you previously were not able to cope with, or didn't 223 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: feel supported through, or were really overwhelmed by, you might 224 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: cope by trying to eliminate uncertainty altogether through the process 225 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: of perfectionist control. It's a lie again. This whole feeling 226 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: is just like trying to sell you. It's trying to 227 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: sell you this idealistic view of the world that the 228 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: people who work hard are the ones who get love 229 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: and the ones who get achievement and the ones who 230 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: can control the world. It's trying to basically convince us 231 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: that there is something within us that can determine all 232 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: of these outcomes or all of these truths that we 233 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: want to know about ourselves. We want to know that 234 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: we have value, we want to know that we're loved, 235 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: we want to know that we're going to be okay. 236 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: And in our attempts to gain certainty on those things, 237 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: perfectionism becomes the way through which we think we enact 238 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: it and through which we gain it. All of this 239 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: it's just a coping mechanism, one that looks bloody fantastic 240 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: from the outside. I'm sure, if you're listening to this episode, 241 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: you've got great grades in school. I'm sure you had 242 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: a job growing up, you had hobbies, extracurriculars, you made 243 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: your parents proud, you had high standards, you went to 244 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: a good school. You always had some kind of side hustle. 245 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: But can I ask you a question right now, are 246 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: you actually happy, genuinely? If I took all of that away? 247 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: Would you know what you actually like doing? Would you 248 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: know who you actually are? Would you be doing half 249 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: of what you're doing now without external approval? How many 250 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: things do you do not because you have ever enjoyed them, 251 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: but because you think that you have to. That is 252 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: the paradox of perfectionism. Often it begins as a way 253 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: to feel in control, to feel loved and worthy, and 254 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: it ends up controlling you with golden handcuffs. It is 255 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: your best friend because you know what it gives you outcomes, 256 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: It gives you output, you know you can rely on it. 257 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: It gets stuff done. It's also your worst enemy. So 258 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: how do we loosen the grip of perfectionism when it 259 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: has been a part of us for so long that 260 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: it almost feels like a second skin. Firstly, I want 261 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: you to imagine the life you really really want, vividly. 262 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: Imagine it. Your house, your day to day life, what 263 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: you're wearing, who your friends are, what you have for dinner, 264 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: what your house looks like. Now, seriously ask yourself, will 265 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: being a perfectionist allow me to be that person? And 266 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: even if it does, will it allows me to enjoy 267 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: even my dream life? Is there a future where my 268 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: perfectionism will actually let me be satisfied. The best way 269 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: I found to start tackling my perfectionism in the now 270 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: is to use future mindedness, or what psychology calls prospection, 271 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: to kind of observe how perfectionism will continue to hurt 272 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: me into the future. I really find that the only 273 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: way I can stop myself from doing it is to 274 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: focus on all the downsides that I know will only increase, 275 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: like perfectionism is like the cell count of a virus, 276 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: like it will continue to infiltrate everything in my life 277 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: if I don't challenge it. If I don't challenge this 278 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: thought that I need to be the best, this needs 279 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: to be perfect that will slowly determine my entire outlook 280 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: on life and how I see myself, even like projecting 281 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: myself onto my deathbed, I know it feels morbid, gives 282 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: me some perspective. Is this mindset actually going to help me? 283 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: What am I going to lose out on by continuing 284 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: to focus on these things that don't actually matter? Another 285 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: thing that has helped me is more than anything else. 286 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: Having a work free, project, free, appearance, free, online free 287 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: day every now and again. I try and do it 288 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: once a fortnight. You know, I work in an industry 289 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: that makes it so easy to constantly be quantifying how 290 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: good my work is and how well I'm doing in 291 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: comparison to others and where I stand. You know, podcasts. Literally, 292 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: I have a daily ranking that is updated. Like as 293 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: a perfectionist, that is hell, That is nightmare fuel. Realizing 294 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: that numbers all those things like don't actually quantify real 295 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: life and don't actually determine how I feel is helpful. 296 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: And having days where I can just disconnect from all 297 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: of that and do things my human brain and soul 298 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: wants most of all, like hiking, swimming, eating with friends, 299 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: dilly dallying like that makes me feel less like a 300 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: machine and more like somebody who is here to feel 301 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: and experience rather than to get results that will fade 302 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: over time anyways, that will not last much longer past 303 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: the time I'm dead. Like it really does help me 304 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: to get morbid. It also helps remind me these days 305 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: off that working isn't a hobby. Constantly working on myself 306 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: on a project on my job isn't a good enough 307 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: way to spend all my time. Sure, I like it, 308 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I feel a deep sense of like 309 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: intensity to do it more. Is it actually giving me 310 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: what I'm giving it? No? You know, no, it's not. 311 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: Work is not a hobby. I need something more if 312 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: I really want to be sneaky and to be honest. 313 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is something a therapist would 314 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: recommend or not. Take it with a grain of salt, 315 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: But I try on my days off to be the 316 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: best at relaxing. I try to be as perfect as 317 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: possible at taking time off. I try to do it 318 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: in the best possible way to be number one at 319 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: enjoying life, not you know, number one at not grading 320 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: myself based on others, which is ironic. But I'm like 321 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: if I'm gonna do this, if I'm gonna take time off, 322 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: if I'm gonna take a break from my perfectionism, I 323 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: better do it really, really well. And you know what, 324 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: it probably still keeps the underlying impulse alive, but I 325 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: like to see it as using it for good and 326 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: using it to really like force myself to not half 327 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: ass my time off. A tip I also picked up 328 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: from the book The Perfectionist Guy to Losing Control, which, honestly, 329 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: if you're resonating with anything I'm saying, go and pick 330 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: up a copy of that book was also to swap 331 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: the idea of perfect to better and to follow the 332 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: one percent rule, not one hundred percent better all at once, 333 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: one percent better at a time, and don't ignore that rule. 334 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: Apply it to your life. Apply it to your wins. 335 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: When you notice you've improved slightly on something you did before, 336 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: notice it, Celebrate it. When you've worked hard, take a break, 337 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: Let things take their time rather than rushing them. Do 338 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: it at the one percent level because you won't burn out, 339 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: you will have time for yourself, you'll be able to 340 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: enjoy the process, and you will be able to like 341 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: let the universe cook, let life cook you up something right, 342 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: Let things take the time they need to mature and 343 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: to get better and to see progress. Finally, redefine success 344 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: using your values rather than somebody else's standards. Perfectionism makes 345 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: you chase external metrics, grades, numbers, praise, outcomes, metals. I 346 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: don't know what else like all those kinds of things 347 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: that want to put progress into a box that is 348 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: numerical or hierarchical. But those hierarchies, those number places, those 349 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: quantifiable metrics are endless and they never lead to peace. 350 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: So instead, ask yourself what matters most to me more 351 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: than anything? Now ask the question again, but with a 352 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: slightly different tweak. What would matter most to me if 353 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: no one was watching? How do I chase more of that? 354 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: Another question is how do I actually want to feel 355 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: every day? And in what ways would that feeling already 356 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: be available to me if I spent less time trying 357 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: to be perfect? And finally, does perfectionism help me or 358 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: harm me in my pursuit of my dream life? When 359 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: you align your efforts with values instead of with perfection 360 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: with this crutch, the focus shifts from did I do 361 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: this flawlessly? To did I do this in a meaningful way? 362 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: Did I do this in a way that was aligned 363 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: with what I actually desire? And I think that's a 364 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: much kinder, more sustainable form of striving ultimately, And this 365 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: is where I really want to finish today's little bonus 366 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: episode reframing perfectionism isn't about lowering your standards. It's not 367 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: about quitting. You have proven to yourself time and time again, 368 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: if you wanted to work yourself to the bone, you 369 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: can do it. There's no doubt about that. It's not 370 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: that you can't do it. It's whether you you should. 371 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: It's whether this is actually making you happy. And it's 372 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: learning to detach from how you think people will see 373 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: you when you're the one who has to feel your life. 374 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: How people see your life matters so much less than 375 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: what it's going to feel for you to be in it. 376 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: And it's learning to really include things like joy, curiosity, 377 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: rest connection in your definition of success because they are 378 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: some of the best things about life and you will 379 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: miss out on them if you are in this constant, 380 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: relentless pursuit of goals that are sometimes completely arbitrary. You 381 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: know again, I just want to say it more time. 382 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: I know you can work hard. Everybody around you knows 383 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: you can work hard. You know it as well, but 384 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: is it going to make you happy? Is this coping 385 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: mechanism actually helping your life get better or is it 386 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: leading you to chase things that aren't actually fulfilling and 387 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: that you know deep down leave you feeling quite empty. 388 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: So thank you for listening to my musings on perfectionism. 389 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: I hope it's just given you something to think about. 390 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: If you have made it this far, I want you 391 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: to leave a little book emoji down below. I feel 392 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: like that ties in with how perfectionism really shows up 393 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: in academia and in our studies and in work. Thank 394 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: you for being a loyal listener. Thank you for letting 395 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: me have your attention for these twenty six minutes. I 396 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Make sure as well that you are 397 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: following us on Instagram at that Psychology podcast, and that 398 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: you are following along or subscribed wherever you are listening 399 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: to this episode. I would also really appreciate if you 400 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: could give us a five star review, especially if you 401 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: are listening on Apple. Reviews really help the show grow 402 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: and reach new people, which is really important to me. 403 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: I always want to thank our research at Libby Colbert 404 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: for her contributions to this episode. Until next time, be safe, 405 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: be kind, to be gentle with yourself, and we will 406 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: talk very very soon.