Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,
Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for
Speaker 1: Bloomberg mus Yes, I know it's Saturday, but we're here
Speaker 1: to offer you our listeners a special audio only version
Speaker 1: of a new weekly video series called Crypto I r L.
Speaker 1: That's I r L Like in Real Life, and it's
Speaker 1: hosted by friends of the show, Katie Greifeld and Tim Stenovic.
Speaker 1: This is episode three of the series. If you want
Speaker 1: the full video experience, head over to Bloomberg dot com,
Speaker 1: slash qt or check it out on YouTube. You hate
Speaker 1: talking about bitcoin and energy? Why? I just feel like
Speaker 1: you have two sides. They have their opinions, they're very
Speaker 1: entrenched opinions, neither side are going to change, and because
Speaker 1: of that, it becomes just very heated and emotional, very
Speaker 1: very quickly. I don't I mean that sounds like good content.
Speaker 1: It's just it's like watching a presidential debate, like maybe
Speaker 1: there's going to be some singers or like some viral moments,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't feel like we're actually discussing. So you
Speaker 1: think nobody changes their mind? I don't think so. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna try to We're not gonna try to necessarily
Speaker 1: change anyone's mind today, but I want to give everyone
Speaker 1: all the information that they need to sort of understand
Speaker 1: bitcoin and energy. Bitcoin uses a lot of energy. Experts
Speaker 1: say crypto uses more power each year than Argentina. The
Speaker 1: energy it takes to process one single Bitcoin transaction could
Speaker 1: power the typical American home for more than fifty days.
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is so energy intensive because it relies on miners
Speaker 1: high powered computers that process transactions. These attempts to solve
Speaker 1: really complex problems and then get rewarded in the form
Speaker 1: of bitcoin when they succeed, and more computers are trying
Speaker 1: to do this. The amount of computing power needed to
Speaker 1: process transactions hit a record earlier this year. Miners are
Speaker 1: trying to lower their carbon footprint by using renewables, but
Speaker 1: the share of renewables used to power bitcoins network actually
Speaker 1: fell between. All of this is happening at a time
Speaker 1: when the world is seeing one of its works of
Speaker 1: energy crisis in decades, and it raises quite a few
Speaker 1: big questions. Is there an eco friendly way to power crypto,
Speaker 1: and perhaps even more importantly, should energy even be going
Speaker 1: to crypto? While the world struggles to keep the lights
Speaker 1: on at it's good to see you, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: So it's not really in dispute that crypto uses a
Speaker 1: lot of energy, that bitcoin uses a lot of energy.
Speaker 1: I think that the dispute the argument is that it's
Speaker 1: not worth it to use a finite resource for something
Speaker 1: like cryptocurrency. But what would you say to somebody who says, no,
Speaker 1: I believe in the promise of crypto, and it is
Speaker 1: worth it for for us to actually spend a finite
Speaker 1: resource like energy mining it and on maintaining it. I
Speaker 1: would indeed agree that if any amount of energy is
Speaker 1: being spent, you always have to look at what do
Speaker 1: you ultimately get back from that. And the thing is,
Speaker 1: when we look at the Bitcoin network, we know that
Speaker 1: is it is a digital currency, a payment system, and
Speaker 1: we also know that it is a payment system that
Speaker 1: is currently handling about one million transactions a year. So
Speaker 1: that means that it's actually not handling more than a
Speaker 1: handful of transactions per second. And that's it, which is
Speaker 1: completely negligible if you look at it from a regular
Speaker 1: oral the finance perspective, because the traditional financial institutions are
Speaker 1: responsible for handling more than seven hundred billion digital payments
Speaker 1: every year, and that amount is still growing, So I mean,
Speaker 1: that's an amazing stat But to be totally honest, part
Speaker 1: of the reason I don't like having conversations about energy
Speaker 1: is because and bitcoin and cryptos energy uses because on
Speaker 1: both sides, it sort of devolves into a toxic conversation,
Speaker 1: is what I've found. And I found that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of bad faith arguments on both sides. And I
Speaker 1: know that you're deeply rooted in the numbers, in the
Speaker 1: actual facts, but what's your best sense about why people
Speaker 1: get so emotional over these numbers. Well, it's not that
Speaker 1: hard to see why that is the case. We see
Speaker 1: that a lot of people have invested money in bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and we see that this type of data reflects extremely
Speaker 1: poorly on bitcoin, and well, actually to the extent where
Speaker 1: we see that China took action to completely banned cryptocurrency
Speaker 1: mining from their country in the spring of the European
Speaker 1: Union almost banned bitcoin trading in the EU a few
Speaker 1: months ago, and actually the White House just released a
Speaker 1: report that also recommended considered potentially eliminating cryptocurrency mining. So,
Speaker 1: of course, with a lot of people having invested in this,
Speaker 1: they definitely won't like this whole discussion, definitely and certainly
Speaker 1: not if that's going to resolve in outright bands. It's
Speaker 1: hard to have a conversation about energy and cryptos use
Speaker 1: of energy without talking about the ethereum merge. Of course,
Speaker 1: the transition from that blockchain from proof of work to
Speaker 1: proof of stake, which of course is much less energy intensive.
Speaker 1: Could that be the green solution for the industry broadly
Speaker 1: beyond just ethereum? Well, I think so. I mean, if
Speaker 1: if you run on proof of steak or well, I
Speaker 1: must say it's not the only alternative to the process
Speaker 1: that is responsible for so much energy consumption in bitcoin,
Speaker 1: but it is definitely the most popular alternative in any case.
Speaker 1: Let me just say, if you make use of proof
Speaker 1: for steak, you can probably get away where using something
Speaker 1: like ten thousand times less power than you would need
Speaker 1: if you were to run on proof of work. So
Speaker 1: just changing that part of the software can lead to
Speaker 1: incredible energy savings. And we see that there are many
Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies already available in the market that are running on
Speaker 1: proof of steak and have been running on poof for
Speaker 1: steake for years. So if yeah, if if if you
Speaker 1: do that, and if that becomes the standard for the industry, Uh,
Speaker 1: then a big part or well almost the entirety of
Speaker 1: the energy consumption we're talking about could be solved. Alex
Speaker 1: de Vreese, thank you so much for joining us, Very welcome.
Speaker 1: If if I can say one thing, is I I
Speaker 1: have we talked about poof for stake, but we didn't
Speaker 1: really bother to explain anything. Have we just mentioned that
Speaker 1: it could save a lot of energy? Is that something
Speaker 1: you might want to spend a few extra words on,
Speaker 1: like why is it even possible to save so much
Speaker 1: energy if you do that? But it's a bit of
Speaker 1: a lengthy explanation and maybe two technical but it can
Speaker 1: it be in thirty seconds? Do you think, like in
Speaker 1: a in a way that's digestible for normal people in
Speaker 1: thirty seconds? Well, um, digestible maybe thirty seconds challenging. Challenging, Well,
Speaker 1: when you have it scripted by a Bloomberg journalist and
Speaker 1: thrown in a teleprapter, it's actually atty easy. So in
Speaker 1: under thirty seconds, here's the difference in proof of work.
Speaker 1: Super Powerful computers owned by miners compete to be the
Speaker 1: first to unlock a cryptographic puzzle. After multiple attempts using
Speaker 1: up lots of energy, one miner solves the puzzle. If
Speaker 1: their first they get a token and a transaction is recorded.
Speaker 1: Proof of State dispenses with the problem solving, removing excessive
Speaker 1: energy use. Instead, transactions are approved by participants who put
Speaker 1: up coins. Is guarantees of their work, and if that
Speaker 1: work is validated, you get a reward. If it isn't
Speaker 1: you don't see it wasn't so hard. Zach Bradford, CEO
Speaker 1: and president of clean Spark with us Now in studio.
Speaker 1: What's interesting about clean Spark is it sounds a little
Speaker 1: bit like an oxymoron, a sustainable bitcoin mining operation. What
Speaker 1: does that actually mean in practice? How do you fulfill
Speaker 1: that sustainable check mark? Our focus on sustainability really comes
Speaker 1: down to you know, bualth sustainable energy, but also sustainable
Speaker 1: business practice is and how we interact with the community.
Speaker 1: So for us, you know, energy is a big deal
Speaker 1: around bitcoin. We approach it with the acknowledgement that energy
Speaker 1: is a feature and not a flaw. And you know,
Speaker 1: we focus on sustainably interacting with the grid, but also
Speaker 1: we use about carbon free power with a goal of
Speaker 1: ultimately getting to at some point in the future. Um,
Speaker 1: but it takes time. We think that being part of
Speaker 1: the transition is what what matters, you know, getting from
Speaker 1: point A to point B. And in a sustainable process.
Speaker 1: What is carbon free power? So carbon free power can
Speaker 1: come in many forms. It can be solar, it can
Speaker 1: be wind. We actually use a lot of nuclear energy
Speaker 1: which puts off no carbon into the atmosphere, so that
Speaker 1: those are kind of the cornerstone of the energy sources
Speaker 1: with that we use. Do also tell us about the
Speaker 1: role of carbon offsets because I know that there are
Speaker 1: a lot of miners who do use carbon offsets. How
Speaker 1: much of that is part of your business model? Very little?
Speaker 1: So again we we focus on the source. So we're
Speaker 1: only using about ten of the power has any sort
Speaker 1: of carbon offput right now? Um, it can be a strategy, right,
Speaker 1: but not all renewable energy credits or carbon offsets or
Speaker 1: created equal. Right. So anything that we do we try
Speaker 1: and you know, go through a mechanism that results in
Speaker 1: new solar generation being added to the grid. So that's
Speaker 1: that that's the only one that we've participated in. Right now,
Speaker 1: do you buy power that is carbon free or are
Speaker 1: you actually generating it? Yourself. We're buying power, so so
Speaker 1: you don't have your own solar arrays or anything not
Speaker 1: right now, we don't. We are adding a solar ray
Speaker 1: to one of our facilities in the near future, but
Speaker 1: it will still just be part of what it is.
Speaker 1: So we we connect directly to the grid in the
Speaker 1: areas we operating. I want to get existential a question
Speaker 1: that I have about the bitcoin mining industry because there's
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on the entire industry right now,
Speaker 1: and then you layer on the need or the push
Speaker 1: to become sustainable. It feels like it's fallen way down
Speaker 1: the priority list because there's a lot of miners who
Speaker 1: are just trying to stay in business right now and
Speaker 1: in this path to a sustainable, a green bitcoin mining future,
Speaker 1: how much has that timeline been pushed out? You know,
Speaker 1: I think it's actually been shortened in some ways, um,
Speaker 1: because it's actually getting more important. You know, some of
Speaker 1: the conversations are actually leading to quicker change, so you know,
Speaker 1: depending on how you pull the industry. But it's estimated
Speaker 1: about six the power used by the industry is already
Speaker 1: renewable or carbon free UM. Now, that still leaves a
Speaker 1: big gap to close. But if you were to compare
Speaker 1: it to any other industry, we're actually doing a lot
Speaker 1: better in most cases. What would you say to someone
Speaker 1: who says, Okay, electricity is still a finite resource, even
Speaker 1: if we're getting it from renewable sources, and they just
Speaker 1: don't think it's a good use of energy to be
Speaker 1: mining crypto. They would rather that energy be used for
Speaker 1: keeping the lights on or running air conditioning in hot places.
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, look at the regions that
Speaker 1: miners are operating in. UM miners focus on finding cheap power.
Speaker 1: It's part of our strategy, right and you know, we
Speaker 1: operate a lot in Georgia where there's actually abundant power.
Speaker 1: So would I say it would be a good use
Speaker 1: to come into California, which has a very you know,
Speaker 1: the grid is unstable and under a lot of stress
Speaker 1: and open up bitcoin mine. Probably not. But ultimately, if
Speaker 1: you do it in Georgia or a few other places
Speaker 1: like that where there is abundant energy, we're actually focusing
Speaker 1: on using the underutilized resources that do exist and then
Speaker 1: adding to the generation. So again you have to think
Speaker 1: of it as a transition about what we can add.
Speaker 1: I have a series of simple questions. If we can
Speaker 1: go there, let's talk about the ethere emerged um the
Speaker 1: switch from proof of work to proof of steak. We've
Speaker 1: all seen the headlines that it cuts ethereum's power usage
Speaker 1: down or something. Why can't bitcoin just go to proof
Speaker 1: of steak? It seems like a pretty easy solution. Well,
Speaker 1: I would point to again, proof of work is and
Speaker 1: the energy uses is a feature and not a flaw.
Speaker 1: Um Again, proof of work. What is bitcoin? You know,
Speaker 1: there is no CEO of bitcoin. It's fully decentralized, and
Speaker 1: really proof of work is the really the only good
Speaker 1: way to truly secure a blockchain without an overseer. And
Speaker 1: that has value because bitcoin is used worldwide as a
Speaker 1: currency without you know, somebody changing the mechanism. What creates
Speaker 1: that value is Ultimately, there's only going to be twenty
Speaker 1: one million bitcoin. Ever, so somebody can't just decide tomorrow,
Speaker 1: hey there's gonna be forty million. It's kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, we're all experiencing what the Fed is doing
Speaker 1: right now to kind of pull back from inflationary you know,
Speaker 1: money printing. That won't happen in bitcoin. But that reminds
Speaker 1: me of another simple question I have one million bitcoin
Speaker 1: will ever only be mind we're at nineteen million now.
Speaker 1: I believe what happens to the miners when we get
Speaker 1: to twenty one million. They will essentially live off of
Speaker 1: very small fees. So think of Visa, master cardamic. These
Speaker 1: are all companies that are very large and function very
Speaker 1: well and actually very small incremental fees. That's what will happen.
Speaker 1: But you know that doesn't happen until so every four
Speaker 1: years there's a halfing. So basically the reward right now
Speaker 1: gets cut in half every four years. So even though
Speaker 1: you say, oh, there's only two million left, how do
Speaker 1: we get to where it's a hundred and twenty years
Speaker 1: before the reward runs out? By that time, the expectation
Speaker 1: is that the bitcoin essentially truly functions the worldwide currency,
Speaker 1: and the small fractional t action fees can be support
Speaker 1: all miners even started planning for that. Yet we have
Speaker 1: not started planning. Twenty years from now, we're still talking
Speaker 1: about bitcoin. Yeah exactly, you know which is and everybody
Speaker 1: will be using bitcoin there. So this special audio only
Speaker 1: episode of Crypto I r L will be right back
Speaker 1: with more from Katie Greifeld and Tim Stanovic. If you
Speaker 1: want the full video experience, head to Bloomberg dot com
Speaker 1: slash qt. If we think about crypto mining compared to
Speaker 1: mining of natural resources, a lot of the competitive advantage
Speaker 1: has to do with location. So you know, de Beers
Speaker 1: has rate access to diamonds, and Rio Tinto perhaps in
Speaker 1: the US has great access to copper, whether or not
Speaker 1: they can get it's a different story. Um, what's the
Speaker 1: competitive advantage for a bitcoin minor for for your company? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it is partially location, right. So for example, we
Speaker 1: have four facilities in Georgia, and the reason we chose
Speaker 1: are the ones you guys recently bought. Yeah, yeah, we've
Speaker 1: we've we've had you know, we've been operating in Georgia.
Speaker 1: We recently did buy two more. Um and these areas
Speaker 1: where we're at is we're kind of on grid edge areas,
Speaker 1: areas where there's actually excess infrastructure, excess energy that's not
Speaker 1: being used. And because they used to be a factory
Speaker 1: or something like that. So yes, it allows us to
Speaker 1: get good rates on power. But we're also bringing back
Speaker 1: to communities, Um, you know, workforces factories that used to
Speaker 1: be there closed, so we have a workforce that's ready
Speaker 1: to go. We have energy that's ready to go and
Speaker 1: lower rates. But couldn't any minor do that? Yes, you know, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And to the point that you recently made a few acquisitions.
Speaker 1: When you broaden out and look at the broader industry
Speaker 1: in this moment where we've gone through a pig downturn,
Speaker 1: would you expect more consolidation between some of these miners. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know for us, we we saw it as a
Speaker 1: big opportunity. But you had to have a healthy balance sheet,
Speaker 1: you had to not be over leverage, you had to
Speaker 1: be ready for this, you know, downturn. Um. It's something
Speaker 1: that we've been preparing for for a long time, and
Speaker 1: so the miners and we're not the only one the
Speaker 1: miners that have prepared. There's definitely gonna be some consolidation
Speaker 1: in the space. Can you explain his kitty? And I've
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: anyone really has been able to answer this for us.
Speaker 1: When we think about mining, if we if we take
Speaker 1: it back to like pulling you know, natural resources out
Speaker 1: of the ground, that's clear to understand how somebody gets
Speaker 1: gold or or oil or copper out of the ground.
Speaker 1: Bitcoin miners don't just find new bitcoin. They also help
Speaker 1: keep the bitcoin network running. Yes, can you explain the
Speaker 1: difference between like discovering new bitcoin versus maintenance on the network. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So really, what we're doing all the time is we're
Speaker 1: processing data. So you know, we have tens of thousands
Speaker 1: of computers processing data. And what that data ultimately is
Speaker 1: is it's you know, locked by a cryptographic key, and
Speaker 1: that's what our machines are trying to guess and so
Speaker 1: they're putting in all this effort to do that. But ultimately,
Speaker 1: when you get a block, so what is the block?
Speaker 1: The block is the ledger of all the transactions that
Speaker 1: got recorded. So if you know, you sent bitcoin to
Speaker 1: your rather whatever it may be, right, that ledger has
Speaker 1: to then be compared to all the ledgers before it,
Speaker 1: and so all of this work is going in to
Speaker 1: make sure that it's secure and that block doesn't get
Speaker 1: placed without verifying everything behind it, and if there's an error,
Speaker 1: then the block doesn't get placed. You also don't get
Speaker 1: the reward. Do you actually need to be on the grid, Like,
Speaker 1: couldn't you find a spot in the Mojave desert that
Speaker 1: during the day it's hot and it's sunny and it
Speaker 1: provides solar power, and then at night it's windy, so
Speaker 1: you can get wind power. So you could, you know,
Speaker 1: in a perfect world, be run seven. Couldn't you just
Speaker 1: be self sustained? Absolutely, you could, and but I would
Speaker 1: I would also argue that then you're providing your own
Speaker 1: benefit with that energy, right. I think that there's true
Speaker 1: and this is how we've always set up the company.
Speaker 1: There's true ancillary benefits to the grid that provide value.
Speaker 1: We actually operated out of California for the first six
Speaker 1: years of our business, not as a cryptocurrency mining company,
Speaker 1: but as a renewable energy company. That's how we got
Speaker 1: into the space. And what we found is the interaction
Speaker 1: with the grid was incredibly important, so we had software
Speaker 1: that would do that. And as scale, though, you start
Speaker 1: to run into these interesting issues to where you know,
Speaker 1: renewables going onto the grid at the wrong times of
Speaker 1: the day is actually causing a problem for California. There's
Speaker 1: too much power hitting the grid. Um, well, the and
Speaker 1: is shining and everybody's at work and they're not using
Speaker 1: all their power at their home. Then they go home
Speaker 1: at night, the sun goes down, they turn their TV on,
Speaker 1: they turned their A C. On Yeah, whatever they may
Speaker 1: be doing, and now there's not enough energy at that moment.
Speaker 1: So it was about balancing the time the energy is
Speaker 1: available and not available, and so you know, really interacting
Speaker 1: with the grid. We see it's important because if we
Speaker 1: do a behind the grid project or behind the meter
Speaker 1: project where we're self generating wind and solar, yes, it
Speaker 1: means that we're only using renewables and we're not impacting
Speaker 1: the grid, but it means we're not helping the grid.
Speaker 1: So it's definitely one way to do it, um, but
Speaker 1: it's it's not the way that we've approached it because
Speaker 1: we want to drive change at the entire grid level.
Speaker 1: We really think that our sustainable strategy should provide a
Speaker 1: benefit to everyone around us. So convince me who you know,
Speaker 1: for the sake of argument, just a total crypto skeptic,
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be spending an energy on cryptocurrency, that
Speaker 1: it should all go toward, you know, actually essential things
Speaker 1: that we need power for, like this lightboard behind me
Speaker 1: that probably doesn't use much energy because it's led, but
Speaker 1: you get the idea. Yeah, I would. I would point
Speaker 1: to the fact that that energy that we're using is
Speaker 1: generally already available, but it's no one's using it, and
Speaker 1: so you think of you know, I'm gonna point to
Speaker 1: you know, uh, one of the communities we operate in
Speaker 1: kay they have a goal to transition off of coal
Speaker 1: and they're in the process of doing so. Where this
Speaker 1: is in Georgia, Um, it's actually in College Park. It
Speaker 1: is the same city that serves the Jackson Heartsfield Airport.
Speaker 1: We operate there and we are working with them to
Speaker 1: help them transition away from any reliance, right and this
Speaker 1: has been a multi year strategy for them. It's not
Speaker 1: that there isn't enough power, and I think that that's
Speaker 1: a mindset that that we we can change is power
Speaker 1: is abundant, it's around us. It's about how it's harnessed
Speaker 1: and if we're there to pay for it all the time.
Speaker 1: We can help support grid infrastructure, which in this country
Speaker 1: we need to invest a lot in grid infrastructure. But
Speaker 1: why do you have to be mining bitcoin to do that?
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess what I'm still not hearing is
Speaker 1: like the argument about is the argument? And this is
Speaker 1: the argument that totally bothers you. I think of, like
Speaker 1: why bitcoin should exist? Well, let me ask what else?
Speaker 1: What is it going to be used for and how
Speaker 1: if I'm gonna put myself as the utility now right
Speaker 1: when you know, in Georgia it's been a hot summer.
Speaker 1: When the power prices are peaking, that also means demand
Speaker 1: is peaking. We shut off we you know, all that
Speaker 1: power goes back into the community. UM. We can actually
Speaker 1: help reduce power rates in communities because being a large buyer,
Speaker 1: if it's not being purchased when you know it's off peak,
Speaker 1: then that means that they have to take those dollars
Speaker 1: and they have to put them back into the community somewhere, right.
Speaker 1: And so we're we're actually able to do all of
Speaker 1: those things. So we're really providing a grid's service in
Speaker 1: addition to everything else. So the question is why bitcoin,
Speaker 1: I would say, point to another UM asset or another
Speaker 1: business that's willing to do that, come on the grid,
Speaker 1: off the grid and really interact in a way that
Speaker 1: balances both you know, the grid and the power itself,
Speaker 1: but also balances the monetary system behind utilities. And you
Speaker 1: can't find one, you know, if you're a regular data
Speaker 1: center right now, UM, which which is a whole other conversation,
Speaker 1: but you have to be there all the time. You
Speaker 1: can't just shut down because there goes somebody's website, right,
Speaker 1: or there goes somebody's backup system. Um. You know something
Speaker 1: that we're not talking about just pointing to data centers,
Speaker 1: is you know why why data centers? Why can Why
Speaker 1: is it okay to you know, host hundreds of megawatts
Speaker 1: of selfies of power all the time and set up
Speaker 1: in a system that cannot interact with Yeah, I know
Speaker 1: the people need my content, true, Yeah, yeah, Tim, I
Speaker 1: think I made it pretty clear that I did not
Speaker 1: want to talk about energy. You really did not want
Speaker 1: to do that episode. I actually got a lot out
Speaker 1: of it. Good. That's the idea, so much so that
Speaker 1: I believe we're going to do a whole another episode
Speaker 1: on it. All right, let's do it, Okay. I want
Speaker 1: to see these episodes of Crypto I r L in video.
Speaker 1: Check them out on Bloomberg Quicktake at Bloomberg dot com,
Speaker 1: slash qt, or find Katie and Tim Over on YouTube
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. If you worked
Speaker 1: at a gaming studio in or around say, October, you
Speaker 1: might have been part of discussions about blockchain gaming or
Speaker 1: n f T s in gaming or some combination of
Speaker 1: those things. It even looked for a while like major
Speaker 1: game developers, we're going to try to make in game
Speaker 1: non fungible tokens a whole thing. So what's happening with
Speaker 1: that a year later, Well, there's been a vibe shift.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and
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Speaker 1: for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net or
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising producer
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Faruke and Sharon Barriro.
Speaker 1: Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them.
Speaker 1: Death to Wonder At is our engineer. Original music by
Speaker 1: Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy, Marie Ishmael. Have a great weekend.
Speaker 1: M