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Speaker 1: Where Were You in ninety two is a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. There was no question that never Mind

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Speaker 1: opened up a wide commercial lane for punk influence rock

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Speaker 1: that hadn't existed before, and it marginalized, you know, a

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Speaker 1: substantial percentage of some of the so called hair bands.

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Speaker 1: A lot of bands didn't survive the transition. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Where Are You In a podcast in which I your

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Speaker 1: host Jason Lafier, look back at the major hits, one

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Speaker 1: hit wonders, shocking news stories, and irresistible scandals that shaped

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Speaker 1: what might be the wildest, most eclectic, most controversial twelve

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Speaker 1: months of music effort. This week part two of the

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Speaker 1: extraordinary Tale of Guns and Roses, epic power ballad November Raining,

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Speaker 1: and it's equally epic video, which, at the time of

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Speaker 1: its release became the most expensive music video ever made.

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Speaker 1: The song may have been a monster hit, but it

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Speaker 1: was also a swan song for the band and for

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Speaker 1: all the hair bands who had dominated MTV and rock radio.

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Speaker 1: As Nirvana's grunge anthem Smells Like Teen Spirit bursts onto

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Speaker 1: the scene and birthed an icon, gin R, who had

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Speaker 1: been one of the most popular acts in the world,

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Speaker 1: would begin to unravel and lose their grip on the spotlight.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, we explore the simmering tension between Guns

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Speaker 1: and Roses singer Axel Rose and Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain,

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Speaker 1: whose infamous feud reached a fever pitch at the MTV

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Speaker 1: Video Music Awards, a night that for many reasons, has

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Speaker 1: become legendary. We'll also examine how grunge left heavy metal

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Speaker 1: for dead and change the music landscape, and why Axel

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Speaker 1: ditched women for Dolphins. Plus former Nirvana manager Danny Goldberg

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Speaker 1: joins us to share his side of the story. This

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Speaker 1: is the fascinating saga of hair metal taking its last

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Speaker 1: glorious gasp as grunge and alternatives swept America. The year

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Speaker 1: was that previous fall, heavy metal giants Guns and Roses

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Speaker 1: had simultaneously released their sprawling duel albums Use Your Illusion

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Speaker 1: one and two, thirty tracks spanning more than two and

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Speaker 1: a half hours. They were their first proper studio albums

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Speaker 1: of new material since Night seven's massive hit Appetite for Destruction.

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Speaker 1: Because of its lead single You Could Be Mine, which

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Speaker 1: had been featured in the blockbuster flick Terminator To Use

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Speaker 1: Your Illusion Too was slightly more popular than Use Your

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Speaker 1: Illusion One, debuting a number one on the Billboard Album charts. However,

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Speaker 1: just behind it at number two was Use Your Illusion One.

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Speaker 1: The LPs would eventually be certified seven times platinum by

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Speaker 1: the Recording Industry Association of America. Use Your Illusion One

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Speaker 1: would earn a Grammy nomination for Best Hard Rock Performance

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Speaker 1: with Vocal. G and R would lose to Van Halen.

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Speaker 1: The biggest hip from both albums was the colossal, ornate

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Speaker 1: nine minute power ballad November Rain, which at the time

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Speaker 1: was the longest song in history to enter the top

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Speaker 1: ten of the Billboard Hot one d It peaked at

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Speaker 1: number three, behind TLC's Baby, Baby Baby at number two

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Speaker 1: and Boys two Men's End of the Road at number one.

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Speaker 1: It's not surprising given that R and B was making

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Speaker 1: a strong showing on the charts in the early nineties. Rock,

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Speaker 1: at least, the big hair, testosterone fueled glam medal that

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Speaker 1: G and R and its brethren had been churning out

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Speaker 1: for several years was losing its luster. By bands like Poison,

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Speaker 1: skid Row, Slaughter, Warrant, and Winger were becoming punchlines. Hattie Golzy,

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Speaker 1: former senior vice President of Music and Talented MTV was

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Speaker 1: in charge of MTVS music video programming at the time,

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Speaker 1: and remembers the tides turning. She recalls Tom Freston, then

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Speaker 1: CEO of MTV Networks, beginning to say he hated hair

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Speaker 1: bands and wanted to play their music less. She was

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Speaker 1: a big fan of moralternative rock acts like R. E. M,

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Speaker 1: so this was music to her ears. She was especially

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Speaker 1: tired of these hairbands suggestive smutty videos, which often portrayed

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Speaker 1: women as bimbos and sex objects. There definitely was a

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Speaker 1: moment when you know, I was watching the video for

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Speaker 1: Warrant Cherry Pie where the woman is sitting in the

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Speaker 1: piece of cherry pie falls onto her crotch in the

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Speaker 1: video where you think damn, And then there's another shot

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Speaker 1: where it's like a hose suddenly spurts right and you

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Speaker 1: think this is this is not very all. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: video for Warren's Cherry Pie is pretty loot and ludicrous.

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Speaker 1: Most of the hairband videos were, but the video for

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Speaker 1: Guns and Roses in November Rain was in a class

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Speaker 1: of its own, ludicrous and not very subtle in a

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Speaker 1: different way. Sure. Singer Axel Rose's girlfriend at the time

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Speaker 1: supermodel Stuff and e Seymour wore that mullet wedding dress,

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Speaker 1: the front of which was mad short and revealed her garter.

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Speaker 1: But this video wasn't about sex. Inspired by Rose's Pale

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Speaker 1: Del James's maccab short story Without You, it was about love, marriage, betrayal,

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Speaker 1: death and profound grief. With its multiple locations, more than

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Speaker 1: a thousand extras, and a storyline that included two churches,

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Speaker 1: a wedding, a funeral, so much rain, and a man

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Speaker 1: diving into a cake our heroes Steve Catrall. As we

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Speaker 1: learned last week, it was off the rails in scope

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Speaker 1: and ambition, and with a reported price tag of one

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Speaker 1: point five million dollars, it was also the most expensive

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Speaker 1: video of all time when it was released. As its

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Speaker 1: director Andy Morahan told us, Rose wouldn't have it any

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Speaker 1: other way. The singer understood the power of the music

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Speaker 1: video not only as an art form, but as a

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Speaker 1: promotional tool. Getting massive exposure through heavy rotation on MTV

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Speaker 1: meant selling more records and more tickets. Eric Wisebard is

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Speaker 1: a music critic, a professor, and the author of an

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Speaker 1: entire book on user illusion one and two, which he

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Speaker 1: released as part of the thirty three and a third

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Speaker 1: music book series in two thousand seven, the same year

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Speaker 1: Guns n Roses guitarist Slash released his memoir Slash Well.

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Speaker 1: Wise Bard is quick to point out how flaw the

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Speaker 1: duel albums are. They had a special place in his

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Speaker 1: heart since they came out at the time he was

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Speaker 1: writing in the San Francisco Bay area after having worked

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Speaker 1: as a college DJ. Most of his friends and peers

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Speaker 1: didn't share his affinity for the records. They were vibing

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Speaker 1: on groups like R E. M and rising grungejacks like

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Speaker 1: Sound Garden, Pearl Jam and Nirvana, who were more influenced

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Speaker 1: by punk and underground rock. They regarded grunge as superior

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Speaker 1: to heavy metal, more cerebral, nuanced, authentic. As Wise barbaracalls,

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Speaker 1: I had been a college radio DJ playing the kinds

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Speaker 1: of bands that Nirvana idolized. You know, it was not

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Speaker 1: a surprise to me when Kurt Cobain covered Um the Vasilines,

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Speaker 1: But his taste extended beyond what he blasted at the station.

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Speaker 1: He still dug g n R even this new grand, extravagant,

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Speaker 1: melodramatic version of ACXL Rose. So I had this odd

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Speaker 1: experience as Nirvana broke of seeing Guns and Roses as

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Speaker 1: the losers at that moment and feeling a certain sense

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Speaker 1: of empathy for them as they quickly hit their sort

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Speaker 1: of norma Desmond and Sunset Boulevard moment of feeling like, um,

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Speaker 1: the rock world had gotten smaller, It wasn't them. Even

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Speaker 1: if Guns and Roses were selling a ship ton of

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Speaker 1: records and concert tickets, their popularity and domination were starting

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Speaker 1: to wane, especially after the magnitude geenre Meldon experimentation in

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Speaker 1: theatrics have used your Illusion one and two with all

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Speaker 1: their pianos, horns, choirs and synthesized strings. This fanciful swerve

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Speaker 1: isolated some rock purists. Why did one time badass axel

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Speaker 1: Rose suddenly have such a heart on for Elton John

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Speaker 1: and swoony balladry? Why were his videos suddenly so over

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Speaker 1: the top? And why the funk was some dude throwing

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Speaker 1: himself into a wedding gike. You had a few things

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Speaker 1: happening at the same moment. One is he had a

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Speaker 1: band that attained such enormous success that it took a

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Speaker 1: while for the next record to come out, and had

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Speaker 1: the natural tendency then want to also prove they could

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Speaker 1: do something new. Um, you had the MTV factor, which

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Speaker 1: is in that era, the assumption was that when you

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Speaker 1: made an album, the release of that album was just

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Speaker 1: the starting point, because over there two or three year period,

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Speaker 1: the videos from that album Allah Thriller in the eighties

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Speaker 1: would redefine the album visually metaphorically by putting these gigantic

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Speaker 1: production numbers around the songs on the album. And you

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Speaker 1: had the first rumblings of alternative rock, questioning eighties rock values.

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Speaker 1: Those eighties values included excess, more money, more drugs, more bimbos,

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Speaker 1: more hair, more makeup, more pageantry, more guitar solos, as

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Speaker 1: we've learned three in November and alone, all of which

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Speaker 1: was beginning to feel a bit outdated. With this shift

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Speaker 1: and taste, this explosion of alternative and grunge, this changing

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Speaker 1: of the guard, rock was getting smaller, more introspective, stripped

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Speaker 1: down feedback, rougher rare and more real. And Rob Tannenbaum

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Speaker 1: and Craig Marks Is two thousand eleven books I Want

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Speaker 1: My MTV. The Uncensored Story of the Music Video Revolution.

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Speaker 1: Guns n Roses former manager Alan Niven called the cost

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Speaker 1: of the November Rain video a quote unquote preposterous waste

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Speaker 1: of money. Worse. Niven's successor, Doug Goldstein, who was managing

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Speaker 1: G and R during the Illusion Records and the making

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Speaker 1: of the November Rain video, has said Rosa's constant tardiness

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Speaker 1: doubled the cost of its production. Record executive Bill Bennett

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Speaker 1: called the group's videos quote unquote bloated, saying and I

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Speaker 1: want my MTV that quote. The band was so big

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Speaker 1: they did whatever they wanted. Meanwhile, Dave Grohl, the former

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Speaker 1: drummer for Nirvana and current from Ano Foo Fighters, considers

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Speaker 1: November Rain something of a disaster piece. When a musician

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Speaker 1: starts to use the phrase mini movie, it's time to quit,

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Speaker 1: he says, and I want my MTV. Some videos I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed just because they were train wrecks, like November Rain.

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Speaker 1: I looked forward to seeing that on TV because I

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Speaker 1: didn't need those nine minutes of my life anymore. Dany

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Speaker 1: I mean that deserves the place and the National Museum

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Speaker 1: of American History for being the greatest backhanded compliment ever

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Speaker 1: uttered in this two forty six year old country. Still,

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Speaker 1: if Morehan is the first to admit the November Rain

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Speaker 1: video costs an insane amount of money. He's also quick

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Speaker 1: to defend its grandeur and goofiness. In his mind, detractors

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Speaker 1: who dismissed or mocked it just didn't get it. He

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be a surreal nightmare. You know, the

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Speaker 1: rain is too heavy, But that's the whole point, the

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Speaker 1: idea of people, you know, pulling tableclothes off and jumping

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Speaker 1: through cakes. I know some people I hate that it

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Speaker 1: is so over the toby. It's deliberately supposed to be

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Speaker 1: a kind of allegory, a metaphorical bad dream. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's entirely how it was designed. Given the decadent, larger

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Speaker 1: than life nature of the track itself. Morehan says he

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Speaker 1: had no choice but to make its visual counterpart decadent

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Speaker 1: and larger than life. I think people should have a

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Speaker 1: a better kind of perspective of the irony of it

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Speaker 1: because he's a melodramastic song. That was the kind of

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Speaker 1: the whole point when that refrain comes in with the

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Speaker 1: you know, the you know, the the orchestra. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's all melodramatic. It's all completely over the top. So

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Speaker 1: in a sense, it's supposed to be a celebration of

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Speaker 1: that O T two. I mean we were blurring the

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Speaker 1: loins of what is reality and what is not reality.

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Speaker 1: Eric Wisebard was very content to lose himself in November

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Speaker 1: Rains celebration of the O T T, as he writes

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Speaker 1: in his book Unusual Illusion one and to quote, the

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Speaker 1: indulgences turned out to be refulgences. Suddenly the orchestra that

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Speaker 1: Axle had employed, like Jake Gatsby trying to impress Daisy,

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Speaker 1: starts getting fierce. The video, with images of the young

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Speaker 1: bride turned into a corpse, only added to the gothic

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Speaker 1: aura of November Rain, but the nonbelievers didn't see the

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Speaker 1: charm in it. The New York Times music critic John Parless,

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Speaker 1: a vocal non fan, he the Use Your Illusion albums

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Speaker 1: an okay review, writing quote, at its ugliest, the band

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Speaker 1: has become a vindictive underdog, lashing out at anyone who

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Speaker 1: dares to puncture its vanity. Chicago critic Don McLees asserted

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Speaker 1: that the album suffered when quote Axel Rose is emptying

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Speaker 1: his head or bearing his soul, and said November Rain

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Speaker 1: sounded like quote Neil Diamond's next Vegas engagement. The band's reputation,

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Speaker 1: specifically Rose, His reputation only stoked the anti g in

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Speaker 1: our flames. He was unpredictable, unchecked, unruly, a loose cannon.

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Speaker 1: After buying a big house in the hills and regretting it,

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Speaker 1: he reportedly shattered all its windows, pushed a thirty eight

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Speaker 1: thousand dollar piano through the side of it, and total

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Speaker 1: it's fireplace. This behavior sounds eerily familiar to that of

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Speaker 1: Del James's Without Your Character main Man, who you'll recall,

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Speaker 1: also trashed his apartment after his ex girlfriend shot herself.

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Speaker 1: Rose would also come after audience members, like he did

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Speaker 1: in Missouri before a riot ensued there, antied storm off stage,

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Speaker 1: abruptly ending performances. Many deemed him a diva, a spoiled brat,

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Speaker 1: a misogynist and abuser, a racist, a homophobe, a wastril,

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Speaker 1: a criminal, and just full of ships. Meanwhile, Grunge and

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Speaker 1: Nirvana in particular had been anointed the sound of the

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Speaker 1: New Generation and Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain the voice of

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Speaker 1: that generation. Grune showed up to chuck that unchucked eighties excess,

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Speaker 1: to crack its artifice, to spit in its face. Nirvana's

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Speaker 1: grunge touchstone never Mind was saying just that, never mind

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Speaker 1: all this pomp and lavish nonsense. Never Mind greed in

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Speaker 1: surface level garbage, as punk forefathers the sex Pistols had

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Speaker 1: declared fifteen years before. Never Mind the Bullocks. Grunge was

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Speaker 1: the new punk anti establishment, but it also enthralled mainstream listeners,

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Speaker 1: winning over MTV and radio and their key demographics, the youth.

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Speaker 1: Unlike the newly married, ill fated fictional couple played by

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Speaker 1: Axel Rose and Stephanie Seymour in the November Rain video,

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Speaker 1: Nirvana could have their wedding cake and eat it too.

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Speaker 1: Even if they didn't like MTV and what they considered

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Speaker 1: its crappy values, they wanted to make an impact and

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Speaker 1: make it period, so they played the game as Rob

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Speaker 1: tann Obama and Craig Mark's right and I want my MTV.

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Speaker 1: Nirvana didn't kill radio stars, they joined them. The groundbreaking

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Speaker 1: video for Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit, depicted a high

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Speaker 1: school pep rally transforming into a destructive teenage uprising. When

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Speaker 1: it landed in heavy rotation on MTV, everybody wanted to

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Speaker 1: emulate them. Hair Metal looked like a clown show. Axel

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Speaker 1: Rose wasn't quite wearing the big red nose. He and

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Speaker 1: Guns and Roses had shown their range and somewhat transcended

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Speaker 1: that genre. But other bands weren't so lucky, As Kip Winger,

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Speaker 1: the singer of Winger, says, and I want my MTV quote.

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Speaker 1: So I watched the Smells Like teen Spirit video and

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Speaker 1: I thought, all right, we're finished. We all knew it.

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Speaker 1: It was obvious MTV wiped the slate. Bands like Winger,

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Speaker 1: Poison and Warrant became the dude at the party with

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Speaker 1: Tune of Breath. No one wanted them or their videos

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Speaker 1: directors invited. He remains proud of his work on November Rain,

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Speaker 1: but director Andy Morihan too could see the writing on

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Speaker 1: the wall, as he says, and I want my MTV quote.

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Speaker 1: In a way, Guns and Roses myself, we became the dinosaurs,

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Speaker 1: the kind of artist punk rockers hated. We become overblown

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Speaker 1: and indulgent and kind of stupid. And then Nirvana happened,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly everything was grunge and cheap, and thank God

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Speaker 1: for it. You know, suddenly MTV needed Nirvana as much

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Speaker 1: as Nirvana needed MTV. So what did Axel Rose think

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Speaker 1: of all this, and what did Kirk Quote think of

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Speaker 1: Guns and Roses? Well, as you can imagine, this is

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Speaker 1: where the story gets complicated and uncomfortable. Up next, after

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Speaker 1: the Break, will delve into the tension between the reigning

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Speaker 1: king of hair metal and the new Prince of Grunge.

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Speaker 1: It's a tale of clashing philosophies, of swollen pride and

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Speaker 1: bruised egos, of an inevitable friction that would climax with

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Speaker 1: a nasty showdown at the MTV Video Music Awards, a

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Speaker 1: night that has become legendary. We've taken a deep wet

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Speaker 1: dive into Guns and Roses epic video November Rain. But

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Speaker 1: before singer Axel Rose and director Andy Morahan crafted that

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Speaker 1: opulent spectacle, they worked on part one of the video trilogy.

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Speaker 1: November Rain belongs to video for the Gunners single Don't Cry.

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Speaker 1: As we discussed in last week's episode, Don't Cry set

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Speaker 1: the table for the doomed relationship between the fictional versions

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Speaker 1: of Axel Rose and his then girlfriend Stephanie Seymour. In

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Speaker 1: case you forgot, let me refresh your memory. He talks

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Speaker 1: to other women, she gets jealous and cuffs some random

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Speaker 1: chick at a bar, Axel and Stephanie fight over a gun.

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Speaker 1: Axel prances around and a pair of teeny tiny jorts

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Speaker 1: on a rooftop under the glow of helicopter lights. Axel

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Speaker 1: gets some regression therapy, slash drives a car off a cliff,

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Speaker 1: but because he is a literal rock god, he emerges

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Speaker 1: from the blazing debris shirtless, unscathed, and ready to shred people.

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Speaker 1: This man's heart stopped for eight full minutes, and he

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Speaker 1: lived to tell he is unstoppable and invincible anyway. As usual,

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Speaker 1: when talking about a guns and Roses video, I Digress,

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Speaker 1: you See Don't Cry may not offer up the same

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Speaker 1: kind of splendor and o t tenus as November Rain,

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Speaker 1: but it's still significant for at least one reason. At

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Speaker 1: around the three minute mark, in a scene featuring Axle

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Speaker 1: lying on the table while his surprise super hot lady

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Speaker 1: therapist sits in a chair taking notes, we see a

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Speaker 1: baseball cap by his side. The logo on it is

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Speaker 1: instantly recognizable today You've seen it on countless T shirts, hoodies,

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Speaker 1: and other paraphernalia. It reads in big, sharp letters. Nirvana.

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Speaker 1: Rose was a fan of Nirvana who had wound up

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Speaker 1: at G and R's label, Geffen. Totally doug what they've

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Speaker 1: been doing up to this point. Seems he felt there

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Speaker 1: was plenty of room in the rocker sandbox for both bands.

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Speaker 1: This was rock. The more rock, the better. The problem

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Speaker 1: was Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain did not reciprocate the goodwill,

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Speaker 1: says Don't Cry in November Rain director Andy Morihan, But

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Speaker 1: l feeling wasn't mutual because you know, these new it's

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Speaker 1: like the pistols, you know, when you get a new

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Speaker 1: band and the grounds, you know, they just want to

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Speaker 1: blow everyone away. You know what they considered to be

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Speaker 1: the excess of rock and roll. They wanted to blow away.

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Speaker 1: That's just a cyclical thing in music. Cobain even shaded

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Speaker 1: G and R and interviews while promoting never Mind, said

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Speaker 1: Cobain two seconds magazine quote. We're not your typical Guns

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Speaker 1: and Roses type of band that has absolutely nothing to say,

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Speaker 1: nothing to say, not even over the course of the

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Speaker 1: thirty tracks and two plus hours that made up their heaving,

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Speaker 1: insanely ambitious dual albums. Cobain would utter even harsh words

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Speaker 1: to Michael Azarad in his biography, come as you are

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Speaker 1: the story of Nirvana. His role has been played for years,

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Speaker 1: Cobain said of Rose. Ever since the beginning of rock

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Speaker 1: and roll, there's been an Axl Rose, and it's just boring.

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Speaker 1: It's totally boring to me. Why it's such a fresh

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Speaker 1: and new thing in his eyes is obviously because it's

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Speaker 1: happening to him personally, and he's such an egotistical person

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Speaker 1: that he thinks that the whole world owes him something.

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Speaker 1: Cobain and drew a line in that sandbox, a demarcation

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Speaker 1: between the real rebels and the so called rebels, between

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Speaker 1: real rock and cock rock, between us and them. G

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Speaker 1: and R and those other hair bands were trifles. In

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Speaker 1: Cobain's mind. They represented not the scrappy underdog, but rather

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Speaker 1: the uber, macho, hostile, belligerent bullies who'd sneer at a

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Speaker 1: sensitive boy like Cobain before kicking his ass. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 1: fact that many of those glam metal bands also faunted crazy,

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Speaker 1: big hair and faces covered in makeup rendered them laughable caricatures.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't rock, Cobain thought, this was the circus. At first,

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Speaker 1: Rose was undeterred inviting Nirvana to play at his thirtieth

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Speaker 1: birthday party. Yeah, that wasn't happening. The following year, he

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Speaker 1: invited the band to play with Guns and Roses and

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Speaker 1: Metallica on their Big Stadium tour. According to former Nirvana

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Speaker 1: drummer David Roll, Rose's calling Cobain constantly to persuade him

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Speaker 1: to join GNA on the road, but Kobe didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be associated with them, didn't like what he thought

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Speaker 1: they stood for. Turns out, as we know from his

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Speaker 1: love of piano based ballads at the time, Rose was

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Speaker 1: pretty sensitive himself. Cobain rebuffing him left him feeling wounded,

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Speaker 1: says Morihan. And I think he was genuinely surprised at

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Speaker 1: the animosity that came from that band to him, because

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Speaker 1: I think in his own mind he didn't seem much difference,

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Speaker 1: you know, And I think he was a bit shocked

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Speaker 1: by that. I think he's hurt by that. Actually, as

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Speaker 1: was often the case with Rose, the hurt turned to anger.

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Speaker 1: In vitriol, Rose began trash talking Cobain in concerts, saying

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Speaker 1: his daughter with fellow rocker and holsinger or Courtney Love,

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Speaker 1: Francis Bean, would have birth defects because of Love's drug abuse.

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Speaker 1: Rose the Little Cobain's band, and they're cooler than now,

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Speaker 1: Seattle rock Brethren, saying, as Rolling Stone reported that the

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Speaker 1: only thing the term alternative meant to him was quote

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Speaker 1: someone like Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, who was basically a

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Speaker 1: junkie with a junkie wife, and if the baby is

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Speaker 1: born deformed, I think they both ought to go to prison.

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Speaker 1: Rose had kept his cool for a while, and you

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Speaker 1: could certainly argue that Mr Sensitive Cobain had started it,

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Speaker 1: But now Rose was living up to the dick head

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Speaker 1: stereotypes cobe and had associated him within the press. After

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Speaker 1: Nirvana turned down Jr's invitation to join them for the

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Speaker 1: stadium shows, a miffed Rose told Metallics magazine quote, they

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Speaker 1: would rather sit at home and shoot Heroin with their

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Speaker 1: bitch wives than tour with us. So yeah, folks, this

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Speaker 1: ship was like the real housewives of rock and roll,

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Speaker 1: like the housewives on a fun ton of drugs, which

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Speaker 1: is scary. And what was about to go down where

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Speaker 1: some serious season for now early worthy shenanigans. So go

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Speaker 1: for yourself another whiskey and buckle up. It was September nine,

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Speaker 1: just about two weeks before Guns n Roses lead guitarist

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Speaker 1: Slash would nearly die from a drug overdose in a

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Speaker 1: hotel in San Francisco. MTV Video Music Awards were hosted

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Speaker 1: by Saturday Night Live star Dana Carvey at u c

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Speaker 1: l a's Polly Pavilion in Los Angeles. The network sold

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Speaker 1: some six thousand tickets to the public to amp up

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Speaker 1: the proceedings, promising that for the first time the ceremony

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Speaker 1: would be totally live. The lineup of performers for the

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Speaker 1: awards was such a perfect encapsulation of just how batship

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Speaker 1: music was. Let me set the scene, because this thing

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Speaker 1: was all over the place. I mean, every lunch table

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Speaker 1: was presented. You had the hippies a k a. The

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Speaker 1: Black Crows, Rocks, New Cool Kids, Nirvana, Pearl Jam and

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Speaker 1: Rod Hot, Chili Peppers, It Curls, and funky Divas and Vogue.

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Speaker 1: Classic rock dads Elton John and Eric Clapton there to

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Speaker 1: chaperone hopeless softie Brian Adams. Michael Jackson beamed in from

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Speaker 1: his dangerous tour in London to sing his clumsy race

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Speaker 1: Relations single Black or White. YouTube beamed in via satellite

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Speaker 1: from Michigan to do even better than the real thing,

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Speaker 1: with Dana Carvey dresses Garth from Wayne's World joining them

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Speaker 1: on drums. At the actual show, you had def Leopard

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Speaker 1: Fast becoming the losers while trying to remind the audience

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Speaker 1: they were the real deal with a song called Let's

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Speaker 1: Get Rocked. Bobby Brown was there to sing his horny

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Speaker 1: nothing Burger humping around, and you had Guns and Roses.

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Speaker 1: Presenters included the likes of Eddie Murphy, David Spade, Andrew

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Speaker 1: Dice play Ice Team Metallica, Marky, Mark Wahlberg, then trying

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Speaker 1: his hand at Wrap, Vanessa William and Beverly Hills and

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Speaker 1: to No Star Luke Perry, along with shock Jock Howard

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Speaker 1: Stern as his gassy superhero character fart Man Cobain and

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Speaker 1: rehab for Heroin. At the time, considered bowling on the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. He was sick. He now had a newborn.

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Speaker 1: He and Courtney Love were still reeling after a damaging

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Speaker 1: Vanity Fair article that implied Love was doing Heroin well pregnant.

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Speaker 1: She'd reveal years later in the two thousand fifteen documentary

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Speaker 1: Kirk Cobean montage of Heck that she had and as

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Speaker 1: much as he wanted the exposure and TV sort of

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Speaker 1: sucked anyway, says former Nirvana manager Danny Goldberg. It was

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Speaker 1: a huge circus. He wanted to go into rehab. He

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do the show. Uh he he didn't

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Speaker 1: like the idea of award shows. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: tried to give him an honest assessment of what it

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Speaker 1: would mean tim TV, you know, one way or the other,

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Speaker 1: and that if he cared about his relationship with them,

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Speaker 1: this was certainly the most important thing to them because

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Speaker 1: it was their highest rated show of the year and

419
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: it affected the reputation of the big executives there. How

420
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: that show did so so he agreed to do it.

421
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: And then once he agreed to do it, um, he

422
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: wanted to be great. Nirvana had been asked to perform

423
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: their nominated hit Smells Like Teen Spirit, but Cobain wanted

424
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: to tease new material, specifically a song called rape Me.

425
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: MTV higher ups weren't about to green like that, so

426
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: he h rehearsal. He did rape Me, and Judy McGrath,

427
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: who was president m TV, called me just just very upset.

428
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: She said, I I can't have this, this song about

429
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: rape It's it's not We're not going to air, and

430
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: I said, Cudi, it's an anti rape song. Read Kurt

431
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: Cobaine's last hundred interviews. He's a feminist. He had an

432
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: anti rape song on never Mind called Polly. There's there's

433
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: no possibility that anyone would think that he's he's She said,

434
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: I I don't care. It's the word rape. I don't know.

435
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: So I had a call him and tell him this,

436
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: and he basically just said, well, fuck it, I'm you know,

437
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm here. We're here to kiss m t V s

438
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: as anyway, so we'll do what they want. As vm

439
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: as producer Joe Gallan explains in the book I Want

440
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: My MTV, the network replaced Nirvana with The Black Crows

441
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: to open the show to lower the risk of a fiasco.

442
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: Nirvana agreed to perform the never Mind track Lithium instead,

443
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: but after being introduced before they're set at the show,

444
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: the band started playing the beginning of Ratney and the

445
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: book Amy Finnerty and MTV programming exact at the time,

446
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: and a big Nirvana fan recalls briefly freaking out with

447
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: MTV president Judy McGrath at the awards when those first

448
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: chords of Ratney kick in. All they could do was hope.

449
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: She locked eyes with our stage manager and said, no,

450
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: leave it, leave it. Finnerty says, as soon as they

451
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: launched into Lithium, the two of us just cracked up.

452
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: We were so relieved. But if MTV was scared of

453
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: what Nirvana might do, Cobain had his own moment of

454
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: panic that evening. The tension between G and R and

455
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: Nirvana was bubbling and bubbling and would boil over that

456
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: night at the v m A s says Goldberg. I mean,

457
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: first of all, Guns and Rosas were the biggest band

458
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: on Geffen Records until never Mind came out, and it

459
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: was weird go Prior to never Mind coming out, Axel

460
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: Rose was was was a fan of the album, and

461
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: then at the gig that that Nirvana did after never

462
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: Mind came out in Los Angeles, which was so very

463
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: widely attended by people in the music business because it

464
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: was like the talk of the biz, Eddie rosenblat again.

465
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: The president of Geffer asked me if he could bring

466
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: Axel Rose backstage just to meet Kurt, and Kurt didn't

467
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: want to meet him, so we contrived this whole charade

468
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: where we pretended Kurt had left the dressing room, and

469
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: then I brought them in the dressing room that Kurt

470
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: wasn't in This duplicity on top of Nirvana declining Gr's

471
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: offers and dissing them in the press. Meanwhile, Rose had

472
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: been doing his own dissing, of which Courtney Love was

473
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: well aware. That night the v ms before the performances

474
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: well the Gunners and Nirvana, an unofficial Nirvana member Love

475
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: we're backstage, she decided to take a harpoon to the

476
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: big elephant in the room. Walking past Rose and his

477
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: supermodel girlfriend Stephanie Seymour, Love let loose. She says, hey, Axel,

478
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: I want to be godfather to our baby. Come and

479
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: say hi, and you know it's grumpy grumpy. And then

480
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: Stephanie Seymour says to Courtney are you a model? And

481
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: Courtney looks at her and says no, Are you a

482
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: brain surgeon? So so? Or no? Are you a rocket scientist?

483
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: I forget what it was pretty sure it was a

484
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: rocket scientist, so act a Rose came over and said, yeah,

485
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, shut your woman up, rolled, you know, put

486
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: you on the pavement, you know, Kurt like you know.

487
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: It was first of all very upset by it. He

488
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: was very vulnerable anyway about anything involving his daughter, and

489
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: somebody had been insulting his wife, and plus he knew

490
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: it was a good story, and he called it with

491
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: relish and said, uh, shut up, bitch, but like obviously

492
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: mocking what a macho guy would do, not being that guy.

493
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: Witnesses would call everyone laughing at Rose's macho posturing. It

494
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: was like the high school bully losing his power, backing

495
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: down and walking away in the cafeteria. Amy Finnerty remembers

496
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: later seeing gin Or Rhodes and Bassis stuff mccagan shaking

497
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: Nirvana's trailer and screaming for them to stop because love

498
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: and the baby were in it. Nirvana, Basis Christ Nova, Slag,

499
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: and mccagan nearly got into a fist fight during the confrontation.

500
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: Goldberg says that before Nirvana went out to perform, Cobain

501
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: passed a stage set up for guns and roses and

502
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: spit on actual roses keyboard. At the end of Nirvana's

503
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: raucous performance of Lithium, after Novasellage threw his guitar into

504
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: the air and it came down, whacked him in the

505
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: head and knocked into the ground. After Cobain chucked his

506
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: own guitar and toppled over some speakers, Dave Grohl took

507
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: the microphone and proceeded to taunt Rose, saying in a

508
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: braddy childish voice, Hi Axel, Hi Axel, Where's Axel? The

509
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: crowd went crazy. The m as concluded with Guns and

510
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: Roses delivering a nearly ten minute performance of November Rain,

511
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: backed this time by actual strings as well as woodwinds, horns,

512
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: and a full orchestra. Rose sat at one piano while

513
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: Elton John, his hero and a major source of inspiration

514
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: for the User Illusion albums, sat across from him at

515
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: another slash power through his third darker guitar solo, the

516
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: Funeral Dirge, a top Roses piano, playing a beloved song

517
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: he'd been painstakingly toiling over for years with a legend

518
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: he idolized to a packed venue of MTV watchers after

519
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: winning the coveted Video Vanguard Award a Lifetime Achievement Award

520
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: that same night. Huh. If this moment wasn't the apex

521
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: of Axel Rose's career, it's got to be right up there.

522
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: But it's hard to watch it now knowing everything that

523
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: happened after without seeing it, as Guns and Roses swan

524
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: song their epic farewell as they began to fade from

525
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: the spotlight. November Rain would be G and R's final

526
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: top ten hit, and that evening would mark the last

527
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: time the group would win or be nominated for vm

528
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: A Use Your Illusion one and two would be their

529
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: last albums of original studio material until two thousand eight.

530
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: Seventeen years is a long time to make a record.

531
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Grunge and alternative would take over rock and even much

532
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: of Top forty radio for much of the nineties, says

533
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: Robin Petering, co hosted Nothing Last Forever, the November Rain podcast,

534
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: with more than eighty episodes and counting. We say as

535
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: when Nirvana played Lit the m and broke their guitar

536
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: like changed everything they couldn't and Guns and Rose Is

537
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: closed with the dueling piano with Elton John. People did

538
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: not want that, you know, It's just fully it was

539
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: over like right then and there um changing of the guard,

540
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: like really really can put it down to that moment.

541
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: It was the end of an era. They had brought

542
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: in their sound and set themselves apart from the hair

543
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: bands of the eighties. Soaring to the stratosphere to become

544
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: one of the most famous acts in the world. But

545
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: for many, the theatrics of Guns and Roses performances and videos,

546
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: and of Axl Roses offstage antics had started to feel dated, bloated,

547
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: and insincere. If G and R were losing their relevance,

548
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: other heavy metal bands didn't have a snowballs chance and

549
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: hell of surviving. Duff Leopard would enjoy their last top

550
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: Board hits. Their manager at the time, Peter Mench, has

551
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: said he knew they were basically over after their set

552
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: that night at the v M. As though Firehouse won

553
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: the award for Favorite New Heavy Metal Hard Rock Artist

554
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: at the American Music Awards, they too would lose momentum

555
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: after that year, because by then the genre was all

556
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: but dead. In a sense, they were the holdovers of

557
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: glad metal ballot I Lived My Life for You reached

558
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: number twenty six on the Billboard One. It's widely considered

559
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: the last eight style hair metal track to make a

560
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: decent showing on the charts. As two came to a close,

561
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain was still bitter and frank when conversation turned

562
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: to Guns and Roses he'd been very open and colorful

563
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: to the press about the altercation of the v M as, claiming, quote,

564
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: twenty bodyguards had surrounded a menacing Rose when Cobain had

565
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: a little helpless child in his arms. Novoselach added fuels

566
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: to the fire, sniping the guns and Roses quote want

567
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: you to buy their package rebellion of sitting on a

568
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: Harley Davidson. Will you play at piano with a forty

569
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: one piece orchestra? Just like Emerson, Lake and Palmer did

570
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen they painted Roses a villain and themselves as heroes.

571
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: It worked in the band's favor substantially. It was a

572
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: little weird, but cured quickly through the alchemy that was

573
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: in his rock genius brain turned it into rock and

574
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: roll gold and a wildly publicized interview with lgbt Q

575
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: magazine The Advocate in December that year, Cobain addressed his

576
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: nasty v M A showed down with Axel Rose and

577
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: called him a quote fucking sexist and a racist and

578
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: a homophobe. J and R had already taken some heat

579
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: from Act UP earlier that year, when the organization founded

580
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: to end the Age Crisis called for the band to

581
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: be dropped from the Fronty Mercury Tribute concert because Rose

582
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: had used the slur Faggots and their song One in

583
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: a Million. Cobain was redrawing that line in the sand.

584
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 1: You can't be on his side and be on our side,

585
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: he said in his Advocate interview. I'm sorry that I

586
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: have to divide this up like this, but it's something

587
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: you can't ignore. And besides, they can't write good music.

588
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: He'd also tell Singapore Magazine they go quote, I don't

589
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: want to sound pretentious, but it's a crusade. To me,

590
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: what are they rebelling against. Rebelling is standing up to

591
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: people like Guns and Roses. Rock and punk fans felt

592
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: compelled to take a position Team Kurt or Team Axel,

593
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: given the way Rose was coming across in the press,

594
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: and given the direction in which Guns and Roses music

595
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: was heading while the rest of Rocks seemed to be

596
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: heading at a different one. For many, the choice was obvious.

597
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: Gin Are wrapped their twenty eight months Use Your Illusion

598
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: tour in August nineteen. By then, they had dealt with boycotts, riots,

599
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: stage fires, fried vocal cords, near death experiences, and lineup

600
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: changes guitarist as He Straud that had quit the band

601
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: in November one, he'd gotten sober and couldn't deal with

602
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: his bandmate's addictions and actual Roses axelness. Their reputations had worsened,

603
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: their relationships were tenuous. Rose's love affair with Stephanie Seymour

604
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: soured too. Their split was hardly amicable. After separating, Rose

605
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: sued Seymour, claiming she assaulted him at a n Christmas party.

606
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: She filed a countersuit claiming he'd assaulted her. They settled

607
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: out of court, but the following year Rose's ex wife,

608
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: Erin Everley, filed the student, accusing Rows of physical and

609
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: emotional abuse during their relationship. That lawsuit was also settled

610
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: out of court. G and R's follow up albums, To

611
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: Use Your Illusion The Spaghetti Incident, was a collection of

612
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: punk and glamor rock remakes. It contained a hidden track,

613
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: a cover of an old song by convicted murderer Charles

614
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: Manson that went over about as well as you'd think.

615
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: The record got decent reviews, but it's their worst selling album.

616
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: Soon after, the Gunners released the video for the Illusion

617
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 1: single Estranged, a nine and a half minute ballad stuffed

618
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: with multiple verses and piano and guitar solos. The third

619
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: video and director Annie Morahan's trilogy for the band, after

620
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: Don't Cry in November Rain, Estrange was even more expensive

621
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: than November Rain, rumored to have cost four million dollars.

622
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: In the video, you'll find a full size oil tanker,

623
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: a helicopter, ocean rescue swap teams, axel arrusted and taken

624
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: to a clinic for therapy, and slash walking on water

625
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: like some sort of metal messiah. Seymour was out of

626
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: the picture and Rose was over women. He insisted on

627
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: dolphins instead. At the end of the video, he jumps

628
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: into the seat and swims away with them. Even Morehan

629
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 1: thinks the whole thing is a mass. It lost. It's

630
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: why it was like picking up shelds of glass and

631
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: trying to sticking back together. I was floundering in the video. Yeah,

632
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: dolphins for the sake of it. Why I can't explain

633
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: that even now, other than Actul didn't want a girl

634
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: in the video. You'd rather have a dolphin, you know,

635
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: I mean, what does that mean? What you know? To me?

636
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: Estrange is like everything is broken. I've had to close

637
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: that off in my mind for years. Otherways have been therapy.

638
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: Rose would become more of a dictator, reportedly purchasing the

639
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: rights to the band's name. Slash claimed he and the

640
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 1: other band members had signed it over because Rose had

641
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: threatened not to perform at a show during They Use

642
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: Your Allusion tour. Gilby Clark, who had replaced Izzie Stradling,

643
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: was out of the group. By Slash officially quit it in,

644
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: Matt Sorum and Duff mccagan were gone by seven. The

645
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: original lineup was no more. Rose and new members slowly

646
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: worked on fresh material, but their next album would sit

647
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: in purgatory for years. Actually retreated, you know, to Latigo

648
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: Canyon or Latigo Canyon, wherever he lives. And I didn't

649
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: really want to engage with the world or anybody for well,

650
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, it had become so big and so except

651
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: obsessive so quickly, and there was so many pressures and

652
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 1: and you know, conflicts and internally with the band and

653
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: his personal life. I just think he retreated. It was

654
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: just like enough already when that turned into sixteen eighteen

655
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 1: years of toryn Mike Chinese Democracy. Of course, by April

656
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: of Cobain was gone. He died by suicide, having shot

657
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: himself at the age of seven, less than three years

658
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: after Nirvana had changed the music landscape forever, the band

659
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: was done up. Next, after the break, we welcome former

660
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: Nirvana manager Danny Goldberg to discuss the state of rock

661
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: in two, the legacy of Nirvana, and never Mind, Cobain's

662
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: conflicted relationship with MTV, and the tension between Cobain and

663
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: Rose m H. Welcome back to Where Were You in

664
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: ninety two. We've been discussing guns and Roses, Nirvana, the

665
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: end of hair metal, and the grunge explosion. Now it's

666
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: time to hear more of nirvana side of the story

667
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: as we welcome Danny Goldberg, former Nirvana manager and author

668
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: of the two thousand nineteen book Serving the Servant. Remembering

669
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain, You were, in a sense the Kurt Whisperer.

670
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: I think because I was older, and because I had

671
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: early on recognized that he was really in love with Corny,

672
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: that it wasn't just a passing thing. I developed the

673
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: role of a personal relationship with him that the other

674
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: people in the business at that time didn't didn't have,

675
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: and he was under so much public scrutiny and everything that,

676
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, he became kind of shrunk the number of

677
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: people he was talking to about certain things, and so

678
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: that was part of my role. But I you know,

679
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: my day job was was overseeing the part of the

680
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: A and R at Atlantic that involved trying to bring in,

681
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: you know, rock bands that that could be successful in

682
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: the post Nirvana music business. Tell me about the state

683
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: of music in by nine two, the record companies were

684
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: looking for quote unquote the next Nirvana, and UH and

685
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: and UH. There's no question that the differences between one

686
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: kind of rock and roll another are kind of exaggerated

687
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: by anyone who's got an AX to grind. You know,

688
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: they were all using guitars and amplifiers, but there was

689
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: a cultural difference in the stance, and there was a

690
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: musical difference between the music that was that was becoming

691
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: the commercial music. Uh on outlets like MTV, which was,

692
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, the biggest connector of fans to musicians in

693
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: the early nineties. There was no question that never Mind

694
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: opened up a wide commercial lane for punk influens rock

695
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: that hadn't existed before, and it marginalized you know, a

696
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: substantial percentage of some of the so called hair bands.

697
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: A lot of bands didn't survive the transition culturally, which

698
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: had to do with the generational change. Why do you

699
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: think there was such a divide between the guns and

700
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: Roses and heavy metal sector and then the Nirvana and

701
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: I think they were there. They're The biggest thing is generational.

702
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 1: You know, you think high school is four years, So

703
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: to me, I always look at it. You know, people

704
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: talk about what's how long is the generation? In demographic terms,

705
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: that usually think of fifty five years. But to me,

706
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: in the music business, the generation is four years, how

707
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: long high school is. And and you know every time

708
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: every four or five years, there's a yearning of people

709
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: who are thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen to differentiate themselves from

710
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: people they're five years older. So that's just number one.

711
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: That's that's that's that's a permanent fixture of just the

712
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: psychology of public during you know, as long as I've

713
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: been alive, then there was the political environment of of

714
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: of we we were. We were ninety two was the

715
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: last of twelve years of Republicans in the White House,

716
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: two terms of Ronald Reagan, one of George J. Stubb

717
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: be a Bush. There was the Gulf war had happened

718
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: at the beginning of Bush's term, and there was a

719
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: generation of people that felt like outsiders from you know,

720
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: the sort of conservative political consensus, and they felt a

721
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: desire to differentiate them themselves. Uh. Then there was also

722
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: the evolution of of sexual roles and and what it

723
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: was to be a man. And and you know, one

724
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: of the things that Courtney had said to me early

725
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: on when I met her after she was dating Kurt's

726
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: that she thought, you know, Kurt was really gonna one

727
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: of his missions was, you know, the feminization of rock,

728
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: the challenging the the the idea of what manliness was

729
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: from the uh, from the images on MTV of guys

730
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: who'd obviously spent a lot of time at the gym

731
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: and were wearing their cutoff showing showing their muscles, and

732
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, wearing black leather and talking

733
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: about women as sort uh, you know, objects, and the

734
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: strain of punk that had inspired Kurt and and also

735
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: inspired Pearl Jam and Sound Garden and a lot of

736
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: the other bands that emerged in the nine in ninety two,

737
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: which which included the Riot Girls. In the influence of feminism,

738
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: the influence of the gay rights movement and a real

739
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: challenge to that idea of macho maleness as being the

740
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: coolest thing. So you had the sort of cultural changes

741
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: involved in sexuality, had the generational changes, and you had

742
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: the political changes, and you had had a decade in

743
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: the eighties of this German aating American punk rock culture

744
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: that never was very big commercially, but had a tremendously

745
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: intense influence on the on the cult of fans that

746
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: it did have artists like the Black Flag and Dead

747
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: Kennedy's and Fugazi um and and a number of others

748
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: who who it was a laboratory for creativity for the

749
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: previous decade coming from that subculture. Those were not artists

750
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: who were written about and Rolling Stone or whose videos

751
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: were on MTV for the most part, but they played clubs.

752
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: And then there's the mystery of creative genius that just

753
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: pops up in certain people at certain times, and and

754
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: they have a lot of influence when those human beings

755
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: come along. And this was manifest by the variety of

756
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: radio stations that played Smell Like the in spirit. It

757
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: was the quintessential magical song that crossed a lot of boundaries.

758
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 1: You know, you your team, and even you know, even

759
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 1: Kurt in the band did still want to be popular.

760
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: They did want to be bigger. You know, he obviously

761
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: understood he needed MTV, but he also unders at MTV

762
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: needed him. But it was it was definitely a struggle

763
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: for him. Tell me a little bit about that. The

764
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: main people he dealt with, particularly Amy Finnity, who was

765
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: sort of designated by MTV to be the Nirvana person,

766
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: but also Judy McGrath, who was president of MTV. He

767
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: had never had a problem with them as human beings.

768
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: He had a problem balancing three different things, one of

769
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 1: which was his own inner voice as an artist, which

770
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: was the number one thing to him. Number two is

771
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: he had a tremendous amount of respect for the punk

772
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: culture from which he had emerged and did not want

773
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: to disrespect it. He didn't want to leave it. He

774
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 1: wanted those people to still be his fans. And he, uh,

775
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: he wanted to be a big, big rock star. There's

776
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: no question about it. If you look at the Kurt

777
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: Cobain journals, you know he was when he was a teenager,

778
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: he was doing a drawing showing Nirvana headlining big places

779
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: and things like that. You know, he he um he

780
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 1: wanted all of that so an MTV embodied all those contradictions.

781
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes they'd asked him to do something like an award show,

782
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: which to him was kind of an anapoma compared to

783
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: the sort of punk ethos. On the other hand, if

784
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: he was watching him. There was one time I tell

785
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: the story, but you know he called me be us.

786
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,760
Speaker 1: He had been watching MTV and he'd seen more Pearl

787
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: Jam videos than their Vana videos and wanted to know

788
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: where they mad at him, or what what do we

789
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: do about this? You know? So you know he was

790
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: he was had those contradictions. He's not the only artist

791
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: who has been conflicted between a desire to be a

792
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: pure artist and and and and a very successful one,

793
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: but a lot of them. When you look at Nirvana's career,

794
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: you look at Unplugged, you know, one of the most

795
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: important albums, you know, an MTV special, you look at

796
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: smells like teen Spirit. It's hard to think about that

797
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: song without thinking about that video. So uh, you know,

798
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: some of the most famous moments happened on some of

799
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: those award shows. Um so they were. They were a

800
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: big part of his career and he knew it. You

801
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 1: write in a book that Kurt associated, you know, certain

802
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: values you know, with guns and roses and heavy metal

803
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: bands that he didn't endorse. In addition to the music,

804
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: he was incredibly sophisticated about the cultural symbolism that connected

805
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: an artist to an audience. And he really wanted and

806
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: he was particularly conscious at that moment in time of

807
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: having left an indie labeled Subpop Records and signed to

808
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: this major label, Geffen Records, go on with managers. He

809
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: really wanted to be consistent in the message he was

810
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: sending culturally about his what we would call today brand,

811
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, where he would have been horrified by, but

812
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of today how people described their image, you know.

813
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: And uh, I don't think he wanted to have anecdotes

814
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: or photos about that would make his punk audience and

815
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: punk fans feel that he was leaving them or betraying them.

816
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: There was this different camps, and he wanted to be

817
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: kind of loyal to and the and and a thought

818
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: leader of his camp. I think five years later it

819
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: would have been a completely different thing, because those things

820
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: are temporary. But in moment, there was a real difference

821
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: between coming and embracing the punk culture and embracing the

822
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, kind of macho what he perceived as the

823
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: macho rock and roll culture. The line with the lights out,

824
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: it's less dangerous here we are now entertain us. What

825
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: does that line mean to you? I I thought it

826
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: was a commentary on the shallowness of the people in

827
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: high school that he didn't like and people like that.

828
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: It was kind of the cool people joining together to

829
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: to to focus on what they thought the shallowness was

830
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: of people that were just into superficial entertainment as opposed

831
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: to deeper matters of the heart and mind, you know,

832
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: and and and and so on. It was sort of

833
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: a snobbish commentary on idiots. It it was a comment

834
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: on the shallowness of group think as opposed to the

835
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 1: soulful brothers and sisters that you know, were the US

836
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: as opposed to them. How would you sum up the

837
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: legacy and impact of of of Nirvana and ninety two

838
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: in particular, you know, the impact of never Mind and

839
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: smells like teen Spirit. Look. Rock and roll have been

840
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: around since the middle of the fifties, and it was getting, uh,

841
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: it was starting to fade as as having real cutting

842
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: edge cultural power because it had been so popular for

843
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: so many decades and had become formulaic, like all genres

844
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: get at a certain point, and uh he and the

845
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: rest of Nirvana figured out a way to reinvent it

846
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: for for for the nineties. He uh he took some

847
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: of the energy of punk rock and uh and and

848
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: merged it with mass communication skills and and created an

849
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: art that spoke to uh you know, it was very entertaining,

850
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: which he wanted to be, but which also spoke to

851
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: a kind of a redefinition of what masculinity and critique

852
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: of bigotry of any kind, particularly uh misogyny and homophobia

853
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: at that moment. Uh that was that was the first

854
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: time somebody who had access to a global mass audience

855
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: was saying those things in that way. But but the

856
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: other legacy is just here's a great musical artist. You

857
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: know they the world produces these people, the genre of

858
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: pop music produces them every once in a while. Chuck

859
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: Berry was one, Bob Marley was one, John Lennon was one,

860
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,959
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan was one. And I don't know who else

861
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: other people would put on that list, but I don't

862
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: think there's anyone that wouldn't put Kurt Cobain on that list.

863
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a list of people who you

864
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: took took music into into a deeper place while maintaining

865
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: a mass audience, you know, And he was that guy

866
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: for that moment. I see people in their teens and

867
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: twenties were in Nirvana t shirts almost every day. Something

868
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: about what he did transcended time revisiting the stories of

869
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: guns and roses in Nirvana, and specifically that fraud fateful

870
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: night of the n m A S doesn't so much

871
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 1: excite me. Has bummed me out, and not just because

872
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: both stories and tail tragedies call me a Pollyanna. But

873
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: in an ideal world, rock fans would never have had

874
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: to choose between these two bands. But I'd also like

875
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: to think plenty of rock fans didn't choose Nothing Lasts

876
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: Forever podcast host Tera reader and Robin Petering didn't, music

877
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 1: journalist and critic Eric Wisbar didn't. November Rain director Andy

878
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: Morahan didn't. Hell even Dave Grohl ultimately didn't. G and

879
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: R and the former Nirvana drummer who taunted Axel Rose

880
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 1: and called the November Rain video a train wreck, seemed

881
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 1: to have buried the hatchet. Grol has collaborated and performed

882
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: with Guns and Roses, including returning members Slash and Duff mcgagan.

883
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: In recent years. Groll even let his old pell Axel

884
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: his elaborate performance thrown after the singer broke his foot.

885
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't choose. I can fully respect and appreciate

886
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: Irvana's impact. It is mind blowing and undeniable. But I

887
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: can also say I wholeheartedly and ironically love November Rain

888
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: and its video. It remains one of my all time

889
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: faves for Morahan. November Rain also transcended time. People say

890
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: to me, how you know what makes a great video, Well,

891
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,919
Speaker 1: now you need the riot artists at the right time

892
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 1: with the riot song, and if you can get all

893
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: those stars aligned, you get a home run. There a

894
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: very few home runs in the pop cultural landscape, and

895
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: I think this is one of them. It resonated, and

896
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: I think it's still resonates because it has a kind

897
00:55:55,239 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: of slightly timeless quality about it. Yes, Rose was probably thematic,

898
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, both Kobe and

899
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: Rose were flawed, damaged men who poured their guts into

900
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: their music, very publicly confronting their demons, albeit in very

901
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: different ways. And hoping listeners would understand and accept them

902
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: and maybe find a kindred spirit in them. We'll enjoy

903
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:17,919
Speaker 1: them out of the line and saying and go oh yeah,

904
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,919
Speaker 1: you know, end of hair up, beginning of grums. They're

905
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: kind of indivisible. It's just a different approach to life.

906
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: A lot of these bands aren't that different. They just

907
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: wear different clothes and have a slightly different outlook on life.

908
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: But they're still fucking rock and roll pets who want

909
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 1: to make loud music, adds Wise Bard. What absolutely fails

910
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 1: at the level of rock albums is also the thing

911
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: that kept Guns and Roses eternally fresh for new generations

912
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: of music fans, because November Rain turned out to be

913
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: one of those musical experiences that a lot of people

914
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: enjoy having. In some ways, you could argue that, although

915
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: it was maybe not his goal, Axel Rose didn't make

916
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: a great rock album to follow up on Appetite for Destruction,

917
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: but he did make a music video to follow up

918
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,439
Speaker 1: on Thriller, I would argue that November Rain is sort

919
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 1: of a little bit in that category. That is. One

920
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: one way that pop works um is that a certain

921
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: kind of song can escape um the moment of its

922
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: creation and just have a kind of afterlife all of

923
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: its own. Wise, Bard goes on to argue that listeners

924
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: these days don't give genre the power it had in

925
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: pop is no longer a dirty word, nor his metal

926
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: pianos are cool. Synthesizers are very cool. Alternative doesn't mean

927
00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: anything anymore alternative to what a genres fused together and

928
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: influence one another, as once maligned genres are reconsidered and

929
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: reinvented in cool new ways. Genre purism sometimes feels like

930
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: it's going extinct. It's all flipped and flopped and mixed

931
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: and remixed. Um. But what we do do I think,

932
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 1: as individual listeners, is we make just decisions about um,

933
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: what makes us feel connected to something. I don't think

934
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: that anyone listening to November Rain these days is thinking

935
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: at all about Nirvauna, is thinking at all about questions

936
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: of corporate rock and indie culture. If they're thinking about something,

937
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: it's not that um and and so you know that

938
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: is that is something that happens over time. In a

939
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: lot of ways, that version of nineties culture is less

940
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: tied to remembering a scene, less tied to remembering his genre,

941
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: and it is more just a free floating thing in

942
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: and of itself, that um, so far as we can tell,

943
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: still has a ways to go before the helicopter is

944
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: gonna land, and the and the and the video will

945
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: finally be over for a certain segment of the population.

946
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: Guns and Roses nine minute power ballot Opus November Rain

947
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: showed up when it was supposed to being in the

948
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,439
Speaker 1: wrong place at the wrong time, actually served it well.

949
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: It was really like nothing else in two and it's

950
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: like nothing else now. Epic, unruly and ridiculously extravagant. It

951
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: spins along on its axis and its own vast and

952
00:59:37,960 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: infinite universe. Maybe some things do last forever. Where Were

953
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: You in ninety two was a production of I Heart Radio.

954
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Noel Brown and Jordan run Talk.

955
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: The show was researched, written and hosted by me Jason Lafier,

956
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: with editing and sound design by Michael Alder June. If

957
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us

958
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: a review. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, check

959
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

960
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.