WEBVTT - Episode 6: The Dog Walker 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.720 It's now twenty seventeen, and Robert has been beavering away 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.160 for months on the Lee Harris story, teaching himself lots 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.080 of new skills like video editing and sound production. It's 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.720 fair to say he's caught the documentary making bug. 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:18.320 I've seen it so much I could pretty much bow 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.240 mild the lions as they're happening. Really, yeah, that's ridiculous. 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.600 It consumes my brain like you couldn't imagine. 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:26.920 Lee. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.240 I know more about you than anyone I think. At 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.720 this point. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.159 The movie is jam packed with all kinds of material Lee, 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.520 of course, but also old newsreel from eighty nine, interviews 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.960 with Detective Zuli, information about other cases he worked on. 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.639 The David Told story is in there. The alternate suspect 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.120 plus the sweatshirt are in there. He's even done interviews 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.479 with an old friend of Lee's from early Cabrinia days, 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.000 all leading to poignant musical crescendo in the form of 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:02.480 Sam Cook's A Change is Gonna Come. There's just one problem. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:04.520 It is long, like too long. 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:08.520 Yeah, it's an hour and forty eight minutes, and it's 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:10.840 like forty minutes before I even get to you. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.720 Which by any storytelling measure is a long wait before 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.520 meeting the protagonists. So Rob's opened the dock to some feedback. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.360 My mom watched this, she said, she said, it's good, 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.200 change this, this, and this, like how Ha's. I watched 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.360 it and staid, I should narrate the lions. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.520 Okay, so a few changes couldn't hurt. So how about 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.000 opening the dock? Was something profound like an Enlightenment age 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.200 quote about the very nature of justice? 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.400 I'm starting it out with the caption. You know, there's 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.160 a quote somewhere that says that it's better that ten 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.360 guilty menu ten guilty men escape than one innocent man propper. 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:50.320 That's good. 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.160 Yeah, yeah, I think that's better. 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.440 What is it they say about taste? There's no accounting 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.880 for it. Well, it's about to get more challenging. Another 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.360 bit of feedback is just landed in Robert's inbox. He 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:05.000 reads it to. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.520 Lee, you could take those news stories apart, who weave 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.600 them together with thee's story to present a more compelling 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:15.560 narrative story drama about an innocent man. I agree with 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.320 them there, I could have done a couple of different 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:19.040 things in there. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.280 Okay, he's taking it well. But then cue the denial 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.480 stage of the creative feedback process. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:28.480 I mean, if I really have to change and I'll 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.040 go back and change your I did it. 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:31.800 I did it. 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.920 I made the audio work, I made everything work. It's 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:36.480 it's a complete piece. 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.120 Stuff, followed swiftly by the bargaining phase. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.080 So I mean I like it. I like it the 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:42.720 way it is. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.720 But it's like it at what point? At what point 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:49.560 is the thing done? 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.320 Then depression the way I see it, I'm. 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.320 Done, man't. I don't want to go I don't want. 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:56.679 To go back that. 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.079 I mean, I could weave things together in a way 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.239 that would be compelled. I agree, But oh my god, after. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.520 This point until finally acceptance. 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.520 So at this point, so will I decided that I 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:11.320 need to redo it. 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.400 But the definitive piece of feedback is about to come, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.040 and it's gonna be fatal. Jennifer Black has seen the 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.919 latest version of the movie. She tells Rob in no 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:31.000 uncertain terms to take it down immediately, to put it mildly. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.640 She is unhappy with the way he has portrayed a 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.920 key witness, someone who has not spoken in thirty years, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.800 but who, if they were to speak, could be the 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.000 key in turning the case. She doesn't want anything spoiling 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:52.560 our chances, and certainly not Rob's burgeoning freely enterprise. I'm 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.520 Dax Stevlin Ross and from iHeartMedia. This is Crying Wolf, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:27.080 Episode six, The Dog Walker. These are the facts as 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:32.080 we know them. In nineteen eighty nine, on an otherwise 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.320 ordinary summer's night in Chicago, Diana Seppielli, a woman in 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.080 her early twenties, is out walking her dog near her 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:43.080 apartment on the Gold Coast. It's quiet late and she's 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.479 virtually alone on the streets, but at the intersection of 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.760 North and Dearborn unusual a young white woman who appears 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.320 to be about her age walking down the street with 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.400 three maybe four black men. The women lock eyes for 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:02.800 a moment, but then in a flash, it's over. Sepielli's 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.359 dog does its business and she returns home forgets about 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:11.920 the encounter. End of story. Several days later, she reads 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.800 an article on the Tempo section of the Chicago Tribune 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.800 newspaper all about the Dana Fhightler case. The cops are 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.680 desperate for any information that could lead to an arrest. 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.560 Diana Sepielli is rattled by the crime and the image 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.760 of that young woman keeps coming back to her. Maybe 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.640 that was Danas she saw and that look they shared. 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.159 Perhaps it was a cry for help. She racks her brain, 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.880 searching for clues to jog her memory. There was definitely 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.960 one man that stood out. He was holding Dana's hand 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.719 and he had a limp. She heads back to the 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.400 same spot to walk her dog and it all becomes 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.160 solidified in her mind. She heads straight to Area six, 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.600 where she's met by Detective Richard Zuli and his colleagues, 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.560 whoill promptly show her a picture of Dana. Yeah, that's her, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.840 all right, followed by seven pictures of black men they 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.599 have on file already. Lo and behold, it's him, the 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.640 one holding Dane's hand that night, the guy with the limb. 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.400 She's almost certain, but she can only be sure in person. 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.720 So the police arrange a lineup. They make the men 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.440 walk up and down, and when she sees the man 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:25.359 living and breathing, it's definitely him Tony, our alternate suspect 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:32.159 from the last episode. A few days after the lineup, 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.560 Sepielli offers to draw some sketches of what she remembered. 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.080 She had just graduated from the art Institute of Chicago. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.600 Drawing from memory was not exactly her training. She was 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.360 used to sketching by looking at scenes, but she could 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.320 give it a go. So alone in her apartment, she 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.159 sits down and lets her memory guide her hand in 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.159 creating a raw rendering of what she actually remembered. Could 0:06:55.200 --> 0:07:00.960 it help that remain to be seen? Sketches in hand, 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.880 Sepielli heads back to the police station to show detectives 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.760 in Area six. When who should she cross paths with 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.080 someone who was also a regular Area six at the time. 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.400 The current star witness in the Dana Fightler case one 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:16.720 Lee Harris. 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.920 I'm perforated today, Siri Yella. She was sitting in an 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.600 area fixed with the security guard and I walked to 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.520 the back and she was showing to say she had 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.960 roasts a person persons. 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.280 The sketch shows a woman, Dana, whose hand is being 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.440 held by a man that takes up center frame. The 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.520 figure is evocative. The outline of his body has been 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.480 gone over several times with dark pencil. His features are vivid. 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.559 Then they are the other two male figures flinking Dana. 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.360 They are more vague, one rudimentary set of marks, the 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.840 other more of a gesture none with features. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:01.400 It was kind of like fix and another person without 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:01.840 a faith. 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.720 Lee joins the group of police now huddled around Sepielli 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:06.600 and her sketches. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.600 She was explained what everybody was doing, what the gap 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.760 with the lint was doing. Hold in her hand? Who 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:15.680 that yards? 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.080 Now? I know what you're thinking, isn't There another pretty 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.400 significant time that Seppielli and Lee would be in a 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.440 police station together, but that time separated by a wall 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.080 of glass. I'm gonna hand this one over. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.520 To Robert Diana Seppielli. Not only did you work with her, 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.480 go over sketches with her in drawings. This is the 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.680 same woman that picked you out of a lineup and Hashley, that's. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.240 What I'm fell at you seek later she picked me 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.679 out of a ladder. She picked me out of a ladder. 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.520 About four months later, Lee would turn from fellow witness 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.440 moving in and out of Area six to one of 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.320 the men in sepielli sketch. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.080 With no face. She changed me. During the line up. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.720 She was standing on the side with another girl. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.240 And that's what the police said to another Holly, he's 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:17.880 been tendively identified, and she was She was looking at 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.959 me like, oh, well, I mean, you know, and I'm 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.000 looking at her light. You couldn't have kicked me out 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:25.760 of the line up, not. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.920 Shoot, but pick him out. She did. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.960 Here's what they did. They handed me upstairs, then stept 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.600 yelling me in her lineup see, and they decatted they 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:41.360 was gonna charge me. They called the medium and then 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.360 they took me down and walked me to the meeting them. 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.280 Then what they did to me. 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.960 That's where you might remember he locks eyes with one 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:53.959 of the reporters, Bob. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.160 Jordan, and I remember the look on his face. 0:09:58.200 --> 0:09:59.760 It was a look of. 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:11.720 And amazement, and it was like he had seen something unreal. 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.640 Well, this was Lee's team. 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:15.600 It was crazy. 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.480 Things happened that I didn't believe what was going on 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:23.960 in your big in jail with no bail, no nothing, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.000 the law, you the law. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.480 I think about it, the boy I get Addy. 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:32.800 You can hear how traumatic it is for Lee to 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.840 recall that moment in nineteen eighty nine, scary and confusing 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.760 an equal measure out of nowhere, the police had turned 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.239 on him, and so seemingly had the dog walker Diana Seppielli. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.920 So many unanswered questions, and as the lawyers began to 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.120 prepare for Lee's case. They were only gonna be more. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.520 It's the early nineties, and Andrea Lyon and her colleague 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.560 Shelby Prussak have spent over two years preparing for Lee's trial, 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.880 and the whole situation with Dina Sepielli felt, well, I'll 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:15.640 let her say it. 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.360 She was just a little too helpful. The sketch that, 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.360 all that stuff, it seems suspicious. 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.280 Plus so much time had passed when she'd finally idd Lee. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:30.240 Eyewitness identification is fraught with error, and you know, mistakes 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:31.200 are made all the time. 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.760 And then there was the fact that Diana Seppielli had 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.760 seen Lee around the police station before she idd him. 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.320 You know, you see someone again and again it you know, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:40.960 the power of suggestion is very. 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.440 Strong, perhaps, thought Andrea, someone may have used this to 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.000 their advantage to, let's say, help the case along. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.320 You can get if a police officer wants to help 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.800 someone make an identification. It's not hard to do. It 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:56.800 really isn't. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.880 And so, amidst all the uncertainty, and Andrea decides she 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.520 needs something tangible. She heads down to the Gold Coast 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.720 with Shelby for the most obvious bit of detective work, 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.000 retracing Diana Seppiele's steps that night. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.199 To just see what could you see, you know, what 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.160 was the lighting like, what did it feel like? And 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.920 we we walked it the best we could based on 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.719 what we're the police reports were exactly where everybody was. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:25.040 And all that. 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.160 Or we had a video camera with us and we 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.319 took the most sickening video you've ever seen. Because it's 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.960 going like this, we know how to do it. 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.520 Properly, think shaky nineties cam quarterer. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.480 You know, and it just it showed that the opportunity 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:45.440 to observe was very, very poor. It wasn't nonexistent, but 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.959 it was very poor. There were not good street lights 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.600 there there. There were not like shops with bright lights, 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:52.080 none of it. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:57.160 I've done that same walk, starting from Dana's building across division, 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.720 then back to the park and through to the alley 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:05.360 where the shooting actually happened. It's open, the streets are wide, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.319 homes and apartment buildings abound. There's no real place to hide, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.079 certainly not for three black men in the middle of 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.320 the Gold Coast late at night, and the ATMs one 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.559 was just a cross division which was bustling with activity 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.040 on any given summer Saturday night, the other a solid 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.719 five minute walk in the opposite direction, which means, if 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.959 the story holds, the men would have had to grab Dana, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.320 walk her to one atm, then another, and then somehow 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:41.000 back toward the park, all without drawing any attention ro out. Aside. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.800 For Andrea, the fact that Sepielli even lived in the 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:46.640 area felt suspicious. 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.439 There was a reward I think that would have motivated 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:57.480 her to come forward. Seppielli was a mystery to us. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:01.240 We couldn't figure out how she made a live I mean, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.240 she was living in the Gold Coast and we couldn't 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.720 find any evidence that she had a job anywhere. So 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.920 we had our suspicions, unprovable suspicions. 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.680 When we reached out to Sepieli for comments, she said 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:18.839 she was working full time in nineteen eighty nine in 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.560 Chicago and studying, and that she volunteered the information willingly 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.920 and was not aware of the reward. However, Andrea also 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.440 had a theory about Sepieli's testimony in the run up 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:33.640 to the trial, one that echoed Lee's twenty two statements. 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:38.960 Sepiel's testimony got better over time, and that coincided with 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:45.840 visits from Zuli. Again, it's speculative. I don't know if 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:50.520 he showed her pictures of Lee and helped her remember him. 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:55.680 I don't know that I suspected, but I don't know it. 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.880 Sepielli told us that never happened, that Zuli never visited her. 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.120 Much about that night still lingers in the shadows and 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.720 part at least because Diana Seppielli refused to speak with 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.920 Andrea or Shelby back in the early nineties, and when 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.680 you're the defense, a witness of silence is a dead end. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:18.080 So what did Diana really see or think she saw? 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.720 Andrea only has her guile and her gut to go on. 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.160 I think she saw a white woman with three guy 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.080 black eyes walking down the street. That's what I think 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.160 she saw. I don't think she I don't know if 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:31.200 she saw anything else. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.440 In court, Andrea played her shaky footage walking the jury 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.040 through the timeline, pointing to the gaps, and for a 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.960 moment she thought she saw the kind of flicker that 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:49.960 gives a defense lawyer hope. But then came Sepielli. Calm, steady, ready. 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:55.160 Stepielli was prepared to testify very well. She was dressed appropriately, 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:02.400 she sounded good, She looked good. I she didn't sound 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:03.440 like she was stretching. 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:12.440 You know, at this point, now in twenty seventeen, Lee 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.280 has been running all kinds of scenarios through his head. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.680 After all, he's had nearly thirty years to do so. 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.119 The way he sees it is Sepielli a bit like himself, 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.080 a bit like David Toles, could well have been another 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.560 puppet being manipulated by the CPD to close the case. 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.280 Well, I mean, from the way you described it to me, 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.600 at first, she was pretty sure that she was almost sure. 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.920 All the way through to that point, Sepieli appeared to 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.120 become less emphatic about whether she had actually seen Lee, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.200 such that by the time she testified in court she 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.560 was only ninety percent sure it was him. 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.080 I really feel that she was really tried to do 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.520 the right thing and know how to do it without really. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:05.480 I think she really get cattle h wants to. I 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:10.240 don't know, I mean, it's like, what are you gonna do? 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:16.440 You know? But what we need, what we need big 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.240 want it be in that direction. That's what we need 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:25.920 her to fact. But you know what, she's probably scat definitely, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.560 probably the frightening her with everything it is. 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.119 Robert has been chomping at the bid to contact sept Billy, 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.399 but Jennifer has told him that's a big no no. 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.679 That's her job. She knows how to bring witnesses around. 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.080 But since telling Robert to take down his documentary, well, 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.240 it feels there's been a whole bunch of nothing coming 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:48.160 from Jennifer's side. 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.080 They've been talking about going and seeing her for so long. 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.440 I wish they would just do that already, right right. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.800 With the documentary dead on arrival and no news on 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.240 the sweatshirt, their weekly calls soon narrowed to a single 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.160 fixation with Jennifer. 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.600 What else is going on? Anything you talk to Jennifer? 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.200 No, I've been going to Jennifer every day that we can. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:12.320 Haven't been able to catch her. 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:18.760 Hum huh, I don't know, Oh, I don't know. 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:19.159 You know. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.879 At this point, Jennifer has been on the case going 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.439 on a year and a half. It's getting harder and 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.080 harder not to take her silence personally. 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.080 She doesn't she doesn't tell me every move she makes 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.119 in it. It almost upsets me in a way. But 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.080 but as long as she's working on it. That's all 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.960 that matters. I figure out. I'll try to get a 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.000 phone call with her next week. Oh okay, okay, just 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.120 just because I tell when things are rolling and when 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:45.800 things aren't. 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.040 We don't. We don't want to. We don't. We don't 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.160 want to push her. No, we don't want to push her, 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.200 but we want to. We want to. We don't want 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:54.760 to really push her, but we want to. Gotta give 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:55.920 a mo nudge. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.399 Right right, right, Well, I'm I'm doing I'm doing the 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.760 best that I can, and nudd are along and I'm 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.359 using my best instincts on it. 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.240 Yeah, yeah, you have one minute left, oh, one minute, 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:10.120 one minute water. 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.879 Robert knows the next sixty seconds matter. He has to 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.359 find the words, make them count for his friend and 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:20.160 for himself. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.840 I know you've down inside. Believe me, Jennifer still loves you. 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.840 Jennifer wants to get you out. Nothing's changed, man, I 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.960 promise you. Okay, And it ain't nothing going yet right now, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.400 but hopefully and by next week there will be keep 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.880 in touch. Okay, and hopefully on Friday or Bundy, whatever, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:40.400 it's fine, call me whenever you are. 0:19:40.560 --> 0:20:00.439 Oh here, the caller has hung up, so I wouldn't 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:01.880 tell Robert jack shit, right. 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.360 Jennifer meanwhile, was having to figure out her own way 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:07.879 to manage Robert and the demands of the case. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.639 Because this was a slow, slow process. I had to 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.360 create this unbelievable timeline. It's the first time I've ever 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.960 created a time like this. Select three hundred pages of 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.080 facts that I was plugging in to try to make 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.440 sense of what was happening in the case and the 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.040 different theories, and why did they not go with the 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.760 alternate suspect, and when was Sepielli at the police station? 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.680 And why is there no report about Sepili at the 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:30.160 police station? 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.679 Like Andrea, she said something was up with this witness. 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.879 At the same time, keeping Robert away from Diana Sepielli 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:40.440 was priority number one. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.399 There are certain people who should not interview witnesses, and 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.480 that's family members of a defendant, friends of a defendant 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.680 because inadvertently, you might say emotionally manipulative things to try 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.040 to get the person to cooperate. But you definitely don't 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.560 want someone like Robert who's putting stuff on the internet, 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.040 who would probably put it, you know, his interview with 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:04.680 her on the record it and not tell her and 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.000 then put it on the internet, you know, which is 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.600 a crime in Illinois to record someone without their permission. 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.879 And ask any defense lawyer. Getting a witness to talk 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:17.640 is tricky at the best of times. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.800 It's very rare that someone has something they really want 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:22.360 to get off their chest and they're like, oh my God, 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:26.280 that god you're calling. I lied forever ago, and you 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:27.080 know now I want. 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:27.679 To tell the truth. 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:29.439 Or the police beat me up and it was one 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:31.240 of the most traumatic times of my life and I'm 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:32.320 choosing to relive it. 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.880 All of that is real. But in Chicago, there's yet 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:36.840 another hurdle. 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.080 There's a culture in Chicago among many of the residents 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.680 that talking to anybody is what's called snitching. That's even 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.760 helping an innocent person, it's considered snitching. So there's that 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.080 kind of threat. So it's just a lot to try 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.280 to overcome to get someone to tell you the truth. 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.120 Having said all that, I do have a good. 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:02.439 Rate of getting people to talk to me. 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:03.840 It's about fifty to fifty. 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:08.439 One of the things I've learned is that I'm a 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.720 genuine person. I think I'm not full of shit, and 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.200 people can sense that for me, and they can sense 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.639 that I'm really just trying to figure out what happened. 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:19.600 I don't have a motive, and. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:21.200 I don't know. 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:23.520 Maybe it's too much of a stretch to say people 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:29.159 trust me, but there's something about me that feels safe, 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.159 I think for people to talk to me. 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:35.600 And it's looking like this might be one of those 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.040 times when things are going Jennifer's way, because with only 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:42.080 a little digging, she finds what she thinks is Diana 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.200 Sepielli's home phone number. 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.240 So it's really rare in this. You know, now is 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:49.919 the day of no longer people having landline phones, but 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:53.320 if memory serves, she had like a landline phone. 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.280 Jennifer dials the digits. She's definitely got the right number. 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.359 It was like, Hi, this is Diana Sippielli. I'm not 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.840 here right now. Please leave a message and I'll call 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.760 you when I get back, you know, And I'm like, hey, 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.280 this is Jennifer Black blah blah blah blah. Then I 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:10.200 never heard anything. 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.720 Sepielli would never get back to Jennifer. Turns out someone 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.560 else had gotten there first. And in case you're wondering, 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:21.920 it wasn't Robert. You might remember me mentioning the Cook 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.760