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Speaker 1: It's sponsorship time. But you know what, it's really great

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Speaker 1: when you get a sponsor that you already use. And

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Speaker 1: guess what. Quint's is something that in the Todd household

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Speaker 1: we already go to. Why do we go to Quint's

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Speaker 1: Because it's a place you go where you can get

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Speaker 1: some really nice clothes without the really expensive prices. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I've been going through is I've

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Speaker 1: transitioned from being mister cot and tie guy to wanting

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Speaker 1: a little more casual but to look nice doing it.

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Speaker 1: Is I've become mister quarter zip guy. Well guess what.

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Speaker 1: Guess who's got amazing amounts of quarter zips? It is Quints.

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Speaker 1: I have gotten quite a few already from there. The

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Speaker 1: stuff's really nice. They have Mongolian cashmere sweaters for fifty dollars.

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Speaker 1: I just know, hey, cashmere, that's pretty good. You don't

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Speaker 1: normally get that for fifty bucks or less. Italian wool

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Speaker 1: coats that look and feel like designer the stuff. I'll

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Speaker 1: be honest, right, you look at it online, you think, okay,

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Speaker 1: is this really as nice as it looks? Well, when

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Speaker 1: I got it, I was like, oh, this is real quality.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm going to end up making sure I

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Speaker 1: take it to my dry cleaner so I don't screw

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Speaker 1: it up when I clean it. But I've been quite

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Speaker 1: impressed in Hey, it's holiday season. It is impossible to

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you you're going to find something that is

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Speaker 1: going to be comfortable for them on Quints. So get

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Speaker 1: your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with quints.

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five day returns quints dot com slash chuck.

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Speaker 1: Use that code. Joining me now to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about reforming. Are the infrastructure of the democracy. If

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Speaker 1: somebody I've had conversations with before, somebody I've known a

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Speaker 1: long time, Nick Triano, he's the executive director of Unite America,

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Speaker 1: are the organization that brought ranked choice voting to the

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Speaker 1: state of Alaska in particular, had been fighting to get

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Speaker 1: essentially to get rid of partisan primaries, whatever form that

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Speaker 1: can be done. If it's ranked choice voting, it's ranked

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Speaker 1: choice voting simply getting rid of the need for party registration.

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Speaker 1: Then it's getting rid of the need for that. But

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Speaker 1: it has been the through line of Nick's work. But

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Speaker 1: I know that he's essentially been in this game. He look,

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Speaker 1: he ran for Congress as an independent. He's he realized

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Speaker 1: these barriers to entry were extraordinarily high. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you're not a far left or a far right person,

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Speaker 1: is there a home for you in American politics? Is

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Speaker 1: there a home for you in primaries? And I think

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Speaker 1: Nick has been devoting himself to trying to find that

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Speaker 1: place for those of us that aren't stuck in the

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Speaker 1: wings and joins me. Now, Nick, good to see you.

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Speaker 1: Good to see you. Check. So let's start with sort

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Speaker 1: of your This is United America. What are we up?

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Speaker 2: Ten years coming up on ten years running the organization?

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Speaker 2: And we're not more united than I than we started. However,

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Speaker 2: we're still working on it.

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Speaker 1: So look, the let's start with ranked choice voting because

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Speaker 1: I think the first time you and I had a conversation,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of there's a lot of bullishness,

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Speaker 1: a lot of excitement about the idea. It kind of

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Speaker 1: worked right pretty It seemed like it worked the way

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Speaker 1: it was supposed to work in Alaska, it worked the

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Speaker 1: way many people were hoping it would work in New

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Speaker 1: York City in twenty twenty one, and you know, the

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Speaker 1: main experiment has been less successful because of the decision

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Speaker 1: that main lawmakers made to to only have this somehow

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Speaker 1: count for federal not for state, which is just a

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Speaker 1: head scratcher. And frankly, I find the whole New York

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Speaker 1: City setup. So the Democrats use rank choice voting, but

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Speaker 1: that trust me, there are a lot of voters who

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Speaker 1: wanted rank choice voting, I think during the general election.

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Speaker 1: But I know, you know this, over the last four

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Speaker 1: or five years, I feel like there's been a movement

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Speaker 1: against it, even people that were supportive going It's hard

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Speaker 1: to explain. You and I've had this conversation. I've always

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Speaker 1: said it. You know, hey, as somebody who has walked

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Speaker 1: people through election nights and talks about you know, vote

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Speaker 1: dumps and things like that, explaining ranked choice voting. Getting

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Speaker 1: it out of the black box is very difficult. So

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Speaker 1: that's a long wind up. Where are you on this?

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Speaker 1: Where's United America on rank choice voting? And is this

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Speaker 1: a method that you still think is the answer?

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Speaker 2: Well, I in you in America are focused on solving

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Speaker 2: what we call the primary problem, which is the role

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Speaker 2: that party primaries play in exacerbating our divisions in inc

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Speaker 2: increasing dysfunction in government because they incentivize candidates and elected

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Speaker 2: officials to play to the base of both parties in

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Speaker 2: order to win the only elections that really matter these days,

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Speaker 2: which is not the November election when most people vote,

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Speaker 2: but the primaries when the candidates are nominated, because most

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Speaker 2: districts and states right now lean so heavily one way

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Speaker 2: or another. So that's the problem, in our view, low

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Speaker 2: turnout party primaries dictating the outcomes of most elections before

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Speaker 2: most Americans can even vote. The solution set for what

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Speaker 2: we can do to solve that problem is varied, and

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Speaker 2: when we talk about solutions to the primary problem, it

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Speaker 2: could look like opening up party primaries so that all

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Speaker 2: voters can participate, including independent voters that are currently locked

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Speaker 2: out of primaries. In sixteen states. It can look like

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Speaker 2: getting rid of party primaries and replacing it with all

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Speaker 2: candidate primaries, so there's a single ballot in the primary,

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Speaker 2: everyone gets to vote for whomever they want, and the

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Speaker 2: top finishers go to the general election. There's a system

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Speaker 2: that's called top two that's used in California and Washington

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Speaker 2: for example, or what Alaska adopted in twenty twenty, which

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Speaker 2: is a top four system. And when you advance four

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Speaker 2: candidates from the primary to the general election, you want

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Speaker 2: to ensure that one of them wins with majority support,

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Speaker 2: not just plurality. And there are two ways of accomplishing that.

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Speaker 2: One is you can hold a run off election if

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Speaker 2: no one gets over fifty percent, or the other is

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Speaker 2: you can have an instant runoff where people rank their

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Speaker 2: candidates according to preference, and if no one gets a majority,

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Speaker 2: there's a process of elimination using voters' backup choices. That's

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Speaker 2: what ranked choice voting refers to specifically, which is the

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Speaker 2: part of the reform in a top four primary that

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Speaker 2: is focused on ensuring a majority winner. Ranked choice voting

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Speaker 2: is used in other circumstances, and in our view, it's

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Speaker 2: most powerful when it's combined with a reform to the

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Speaker 2: primary system. So Alaska's reform is a top four primary

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Speaker 2: reform plus ranked choice voting in the general election, and

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Speaker 2: other places like New York City or Maine are what

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Speaker 2: we would think of as partial reforms because they only

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Speaker 2: have ranked choice voting and they don't really have any

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Speaker 2: other kinds of reforms to the primary system that could

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Speaker 2: improve governing incentives by widening the electorate.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the mechanics of ranked choice voting, because

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Speaker 1: I think that's been the stumbling block. Can you is

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Speaker 1: there any way to make this feel more transparent where

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Speaker 1: you feel like you can see I have not come

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Speaker 1: up with one, but I'm curious if if you have,

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Speaker 1: or you know of other folks who have tried.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's two parts to the ranked choice voting process.

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Speaker 2: There is the part where voters show up to the

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Speaker 2: voting booth or get their ballot in the mail and

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Speaker 2: they fill out their ballot. And that part is simple,

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Speaker 2: which is you have the option of ranking your candidates

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Speaker 2: or you can just vote for your favorite. And in

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Speaker 2: all of our exit polling, we found that eighty plus

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Speaker 2: percent of voters say that they find this simple to do,

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Speaker 2: and that number goes up over time as people get

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Speaker 2: used to it. The second part is how the votes

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Speaker 2: are tabulated, and that is done by election administrators. They

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Speaker 2: have a range of options for how they do it,

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Speaker 2: and some jurisdictions in the country, particularly those that have

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Speaker 2: been using it for a decade or more, have found

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Speaker 2: ways that this can be an instantaneous process and it

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Speaker 2: could be fully transparent, which is to say, they release

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Speaker 2: the cast vote records so that there is a way

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Speaker 2: that anyone can audit the results. There is a way

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Speaker 2: to make sure that there's results delivered on election night,

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Speaker 2: and there's ways of displaying the results that make it

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Speaker 2: intuitive for people to understand exactly what happens at each

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Speaker 2: round of the tabulation. So the charge sometimes that it's

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Speaker 2: a complicated or confusing system is really used by opponents

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, let's not change the way that

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Speaker 2: the elections are currently working, because the current way works

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Speaker 2: for them, It works for the two major parties, it

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Speaker 2: works for the incumbent politician. They're afraid of change. But

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Speaker 2: you know, election reforms like the ones we champion have

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Speaker 2: been used successfully in America and abroad for many years,

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Speaker 2: and it's a necessary part of what's going to take

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Speaker 2: to foster a more functional and representative government.

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Speaker 1: Look, I am, I am. If we could get if

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Speaker 1: we could go to a top four I fully believe

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Speaker 1: we should be a top four democracy. I'd love to

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Speaker 1: see that in our presidential race, you know where and

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Speaker 1: then and that I wouldn't do rank choice. I think

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Speaker 1: the country suite, there's a runoff, then the top two

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Speaker 1: face off, we have one more debate, like there's a runoff,

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Speaker 1: right Like it feels like that that is that we

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Speaker 1: you know, we wouldn't have a big drop in you know,

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Speaker 1: the concern and when we got rid of general election runoffs,

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Speaker 1: the concern is always, well, you're not going to have

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Speaker 1: a good turnout. Well that's not true anymore. I mean,

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Speaker 1: my god, I look at the special election in Tennessee

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Speaker 1: earlier this during the early part of December, and for

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Speaker 1: a special election in December, you know, there were something

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Speaker 1: like one hundred and fifty thousand total votes. I mean

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Speaker 1: that's impressive for that. I mean, I think the engagement

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Speaker 1: with the democracy, and you know, I think there's a

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Speaker 1: I think there's a commentary about our country that our

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Speaker 1: electric gets engaged when when they when they think they

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Speaker 1: feel it slipping away. But you know, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that apathy was a sign of stability. But it is,

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Speaker 1: so I don't mind that. What but if we had

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Speaker 1: thirty states holding runoffs but the other twenty didn't, then

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Speaker 1: I could see that that would be an issue.

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Speaker 2: Well, runoffs get a bad rap for some good reasons,

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Speaker 2: including that they have been used historically in ways to

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Speaker 2: dis It.

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Speaker 1: Was about denying black representation in the South, right, That's

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Speaker 1: why why did we have Southern runoffs. Every Southern state

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Speaker 1: had runoffs for one reason, and one reason only, to

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Speaker 1: prevent black people and winning elections.

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Speaker 2: And two things can be true, which is that there

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Speaker 2: are systems that have runoffs today that don't necessarily have

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Speaker 2: that negative impact that you actually do see turnout increase

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Speaker 2: in the runoff. That is the case in Louisiana, for example,

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Speaker 2: in their governor's races. Louisiana has a very interesting election

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Speaker 2: system where there is effectively no primary. There is a

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Speaker 2: general election. Everyone gets to be on the ballot. They're

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Speaker 2: kind of top two, right, and if no one gets majority,

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Speaker 2: there's a runoff. And so in that case, the top

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Speaker 2: two finishers advance, or if someone gets a majority of

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Speaker 2: the vote. It's a one and done election. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, it's simpler for election administrators, it's simpler for voters,

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Speaker 2: and it's better for democracy because the election that matters

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Speaker 2: is the one in which most people are already voting,

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Speaker 2: and so you get a more representative outcome and there's

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Speaker 2: not this initial primary filter. We're only ten percent of voters,

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Speaker 2: who are usually on the most extreme fringes of the

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Speaker 2: political spectrum, are deciding you know, election outcomes, and so

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Speaker 2: this will set wonky and maybe mechanical to people, but

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Speaker 2: it has an impact on public policy because when you

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Speaker 2: look at Louisiana, it's one of the only Deep South.

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Speaker 2: It is the only Deep South state that's expanded medicaid,

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Speaker 2: for example, and was one of the first states to

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Speaker 2: really lean into charter school reform. And when you think

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Speaker 2: about the purpose of government and is it representing people,

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Speaker 2: in Louisiana, more citizens have access to healthcare and too

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Speaker 2: education than a lot of other pure states. And the

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Speaker 2: reason for that is they have a more functional political

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Speaker 2: system with leaders who are intended and focused on solving

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Speaker 2: problems rather than just these partisan squabbles every day. And

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Speaker 2: so performing our elections improve incentives. But ultimately improves governance

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Speaker 2: so that we can solve problems that matter to people.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I think Bill Cassidy wishes that they would

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Speaker 1: have kept the old system, but now they're going to

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Speaker 1: go to a primary system, which certainly complicates his path

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Speaker 1: to renomination. Let's talk about where you're active on the

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Speaker 1: playing field here. What's the status in Alaska and what's

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Speaker 1: the status in Nevada. I know, those are two places

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Speaker 1: that you've been active. And where else are you guys

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Speaker 1: active in trying to expand access to primaries.

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Speaker 2: So Alaska is a great success story for primary reform

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Speaker 2: because after the state adopted it through the ballot initiative

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Speaker 2: process in twenty twenty, it's now gone through two election

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Speaker 2: cycles where more voters than ever before have been able

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Speaker 2: to cast what we call a meaningful ballot, you know,

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Speaker 2: which is a ballot in election that's truly competitive in

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Speaker 2: which of their vote matters. And that resulted in Chuck Is.

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Speaker 2: The State House and the State Senate now have bipartisan

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Speaker 2: governing majorities. It's not just one party that's in charge.

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Speaker 2: There's a coalition of members Democrats, Republicans, and independents by

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Speaker 2: the way, that are working together. To address the problems

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Speaker 2: important to the state, most recently overriding a governor's veto

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Speaker 2: to increase education funding. And so Alaska's been a success

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Speaker 2: story of how better elections result in better governance, and

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Speaker 2: it's produced a backlash from those who used to be

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Speaker 2: in power and liked elections when it only represented a

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Speaker 2: handful of people, And so they've been trying to repeal

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Speaker 2: this system. They were unsuccessful in that last year, a

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Speaker 2: majority of voters in Alaska voted to defend the system,

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Speaker 2: and opponents are going to likely try again next year.

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Speaker 2: And I suspect that support for the system is going

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Speaker 2: to continue to grow over time, not just because people

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Speaker 2: in theory like the concept of the freedom to vote

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Speaker 2: for whomever they want, but now they're getting real and

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Speaker 2: better results from the system that they voted in a

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Speaker 2: few years ago.

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Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to have to fight

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Speaker 1: multiple election years in Alaska to keep this system in place.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's a surprise that every action has

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Speaker 2: an equal opposite reaction. There's the forces of trying to

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Speaker 2: make government better fighting against the forces that are trying

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Speaker 2: to protect the status quo. I think that the period

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Speaker 2: of defense is most important in the immediate years after

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Speaker 2: the adoption of reform, but that it gets better over

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Speaker 2: time because the new incumbents, there are those elected under

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Speaker 2: this system who actually like it and want to defend it.

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Speaker 2: And so it's not the legislature that's trying to repeal it, right,

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Speaker 2: it's a small faction of partisan activists that are.

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Speaker 1: The other perception problem rank choice voting has, and I

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Speaker 1: say it's a perception problem because it obviously depends on

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Speaker 1: where you sit, is that it appears to have benefited

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Speaker 1: the center left more than it has benefited anybody on

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Speaker 1: the right.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the challenge that we saw in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two was that the candidates who were running the

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Speaker 2: two Republicans, were late to adopt their campaign strategies to

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Speaker 2: this new system. So instead of telling voters vote for

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Speaker 2: me first and the other Republican second, they ran against

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Speaker 2: the system that the voters just adopted. And so without

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Speaker 2: that adoption of a new strategy to build broad coalitions,

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Speaker 2: a moderate Democrat, Mary Potola, you know, was able to

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Speaker 2: win that US House race. By the way, a couple

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Speaker 2: of years later, voters voted differently, and the Republican now

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Speaker 2: represents that US House seat. So I do think that

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Speaker 2: there's this transition period in which the parties and the

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Speaker 2: politicians have to get smarter in how they campaign under

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Speaker 2: the new rules of the system rather than campaigning under

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Speaker 2: what the old rules used to be.

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Speaker 1: So that's Alaska. So you're likely having a is it

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Speaker 1: the same ball on initiative that the opponents are putting

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Speaker 1: up or are they rewarded.

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Speaker 2: It they actually expanded what they're trying to repeal to

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Speaker 2: include repealing dark money disclosure requirements that were originally passed

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, that actually helps your cause. People don't like

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Speaker 1: dark money.

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Speaker 2: People don't like dark money, and they don't like party primaries,

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Speaker 2: and they don't like plurality winners and elections, and so

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Speaker 2: opponents are trying to do something unpopular for the sake

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Speaker 2: of protecting, you know, what was their own political power.

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Speaker 2: And I'm confident that the system will continue to endure

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Speaker 2: and be a proof of concept that other states could

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Speaker 2: potentially replicate. And that's what we did see in last

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Speaker 2: year's elections. You know, multiple other states pursued ballot initiatives

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Speaker 2: for an Alaska style kind of system, and while none passed,

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Speaker 2: three states came within three percentage points of passing in

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Speaker 2: a pretty to.

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Speaker 1: Be honest, though, five years ago, I thought all of

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Speaker 1: those were going to get pass easily. You know, I

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Speaker 1: remember when we were first talking, and you know, you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we got to do Nevada twice. You were pretty you

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Speaker 1: had you were kind of bullish about Missouri, I believe

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, And it did seem as if

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Speaker 1: the opponents got savvier in pushing back at you guys

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Speaker 1: in Nevada and elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: Well, what we're up against is the two party duopoly

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Speaker 2: that wants to.

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Speaker 1: Protect actually working with each other in this one.

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Speaker 2: Right, it was Democrats that spent over fifteen million dollars

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Speaker 2: against this in Alaska and Republicans who spent over seven

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Speaker 2: million in Montana to try and fight it, and they

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Speaker 2: would sort of weaponize the issue and say like, actually,

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Speaker 2: these reforms are about the stocking horse for the other party. Well,

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Speaker 2: they both can't be right when they're saying that, And

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Speaker 2: so we have work to do to build more early

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Speaker 2: and durable support among voters for these policies. We don't

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Speaker 2: need to convince anyone that our political system is broken.

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Speaker 2: What we do need to do is educate voters about

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Speaker 2: the benefits of these systems and why it is worth

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Speaker 2: a change. And as you know, the threshold of getting

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Speaker 2: a voter to vote yes on an initiative is much

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Speaker 2: harder than getting them to vote no, because you have

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Speaker 2: to kind of prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's the task that we've signed up

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Speaker 2: for and we're going to continue to work on because

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Speaker 2: the status quo is unacceptable and it's leaving us in

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Speaker 2: a direction in which we're seeing our politics.

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Speaker 1: Unravel even further. Having good life insurance is incredibly important.

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Speaker 1: I know from personal experience. I was sixteen when my

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Speaker 1: father passed away. We didn't have any money. He didn't

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Speaker 1: leave us in the best shape. My mother, single mother,

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Speaker 1: now widow, myself sixteen trying to figure out how am

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Speaker 1: I going to pay for college and lo and behold,

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Speaker 1: my dad had one life insurance policy that we found

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Speaker 1: wasn't a lot, but it was important at the time,

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Speaker 1: and it's why I was able to go to college.

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Speaker 1: Little did he know how important that would be in

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Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about, especially

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Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family. So if I were

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Speaker 1: in your shoes, I'd actually think that this is about

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Speaker 1: as opportunistic of a period of a year as you

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Speaker 1: can have. And when you think about the re redistricting wards,

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Speaker 1: it is taking you know, the issue of political party

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Speaker 1: manipulation and putting it right in the voter's face. Right,

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Speaker 1: so you know, I throw that in there. You throw

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Speaker 1: in that the electorate that you're like to get in

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Speaker 1: a midterm environment is an electorate that's going to be

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Speaker 1: more open to changes in the primary system. I think

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Speaker 1: that electric you would get in a mega induced environment.

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Speaker 1: I think we think you know where I'm going there.

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Speaker 1: So what states do you expect to be on the

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Speaker 1: ballot in trying to do primary reform?

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Speaker 2: And is it.

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Speaker 1: And let me know and differentiate whether it'll be the

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Speaker 1: top four or it's just open primaries, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: There is a lot of activity happening in the movement

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Speaker 2: to reform our politics. There is litigation happening to open

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Speaker 2: close primaries in states like Maryland or Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: I'm convinced there's an equal protection argument on this. I

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Speaker 1: do not the idea that the tax that there is

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Speaker 1: a poll tax against me as an independent voter, and

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Speaker 1: there's you're telling me that the only way I could

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Speaker 1: participate in a taxpayer funded election, is I have to

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Speaker 1: join a private club. I believe that's a poll tax.

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Speaker 1: I don't see how that's constitutional.

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Speaker 2: It's certainly not in our belief under many state constitutions

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Speaker 2: that have even more protection for voter rights than maybe

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Speaker 2: the federal constitution. And so there's work happening on that.

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Speaker 2: There's work happening in legislatures to at least open the primaries.

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Speaker 1: To all voters.

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Speaker 2: We saw earlier this year in New Mexico, after a

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Speaker 2: multi year campaign, there was a bipartisan bill that passed

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Speaker 2: to allow unaffiliated voters to start to participate in party

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Speaker 2: primaries starting next year, over three hundred and thirty thousand

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Speaker 2: of them. And then, of course there's the ballot initiative pathway,

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Speaker 2: and there's at least two states where local groups are

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Speaker 2: pursuing the top two all candidate primary initiative, and that's

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Speaker 2: in both Massachusetts and Oklahoma. Two very different states politically,

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Speaker 2: but what they have in common is that all of

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Speaker 2: their congressional seats are decided in the party primaries, and

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Speaker 2: in Oklahoma those are closed to unaffiliated voters. And so

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Speaker 2: those are two states I think to be watching for

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Speaker 2: and to your point, the environment has never been more

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Speaker 2: ripe because our political system has never been more dysfunctional.

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Speaker 2: We've just emerged from the longest government shutdown that we've

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Speaker 2: seen in history, motivated by you know, in this case,

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Speaker 2: democratic leaders who just want to fight. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: what this has become. I mean, the word of the

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Speaker 2: year the Oxford Dictionary new word is rage bait. That's

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Speaker 2: reflective of where our politics is.

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Speaker 1: Right. I'm still trying to understand how the word of

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Speaker 1: the year is two words.

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Speaker 2: But that's a good question. But that's reflective of our politics,

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Speaker 2: which is it's about playing to the base. It's about

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Speaker 2: demonstrating the fight, not about solving problems. And that's why

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Speaker 2: this primary problem, the incentives, is behind so much of

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Speaker 2: the dysfunction that we see, our inability to solve problems.

436
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: Another issue we can look at is immigration. As you know, Chuck,

437
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 2: a decade ago, there was a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform

438
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 2: bill that passed the Senate, it goes to the House.

439
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: Why does it fail? Well, the House majority leader was

440
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: primaried out of office that summer because he was open

441
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: to some compromise on this issue. And then here we

442
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: are a decade of pendulum politics. We had, you know,

443
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: effectively open borders under the Bided administration, and now we

444
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 2: have ice raids with even American citizens being snatched off

445
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: the streets under President Trump. People don't want these extreme

446
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: policies that we've been seeing of late. They want these

447
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 2: issues to be addressed in a sensible way. That's not

448
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: going to happen until we change the incentives of our

449
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: political system.

450
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: You and I go back, i think almost two decades now,

451
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 1: our mutual mentor the late Doug Bailey, and you know

452
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: you've been in this. You've been in this what I

453
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: call radical centrism, you know, movement for some time. I

454
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: use that phrase. I'm going to be a bit self

455
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: referential and name drop here. Bono called me a radical

456
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: centrist one time at a salon dinner that we were

457
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: at together, and I said, are you I'm going to

458
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: take it as a compliments. Okay, he wasn't, because it's

459
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: sort of a compliment. He goes, there's sometimes that I

460
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: wish you would take up this cause here, this cause there.

461
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: And I always say I'm not a centrist. I'm an incrementalist,

462
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: meaning that are some things I'm on the left and

463
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: some things. I'm on the right, but I know that

464
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: the only way to make change in America is one

465
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: step at a time. And I don't think you try

466
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: to do big things. You try to do baby steps

467
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: and eventually you get your hockey stick moment. Why do

468
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: you think it's been so hard to galvanize the frustrated

469
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: center in America?

470
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 2: Well, first I would, I would. I was also say

471
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 2: on this topic of what you know, what is the

472
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: ideology of this movement that wants to make politics better?

473
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 2: I think centrism comes short in describing it because it

474
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: really is not about living in what many people view

475
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: as a mushy middle.

476
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: It is about no, it's not about just everything's a compromise.

477
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: It's just that it's that's not what it is. That's

478
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: why I always say no, no, no, no. I'm an incrementalist,

479
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: you know. I empathize with your idea on here, let's

480
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: try with let's try one step.

481
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's about also people that want to find common

482
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 2: grounds and no matter where you are in the political spectrum,

483
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: you can work with others to see what you have

484
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: in common to actually get something done. And that's how

485
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: the biggest, most durable change that we've seen as a

486
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: country work. You know, when we look at the landmark

487
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: pieces of legislation that have passed the Congress, whether that

488
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: was civil rights or social security, or medicare or welfare

489
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 2: reform and a balanced budget, these things were votes of

490
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: a majority of both parties doing it together and to

491
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: be sustainable, not what we're seeing today. The promise of

492
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 2: primary reform is that for every state that adopts it,

493
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: it effectively liberates both senators and the representatives from those

494
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: states from being beholden to the base to being representative

495
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: of the whole. And so you don't need to win

496
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: in all fifty states. If we can abolish party primaries

497
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 2: in tense states, that's twenty US senators. It's a fifth

498
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: of the Senate that actually can have more leaders who

499
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: are willing to work with each other on issues of

500
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: national importance. That's never been more important for the country.

501
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: When I think about where we're at right now facing

502
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: the rise of artificial intelligence, whether we get this right

503
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: in terms of setting the right rules for the road,

504
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: having the right overset in place, making the right investments,

505
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: that's going to be hugely consequential for our economy and

506
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: national security. In our society. And if we don't have

507
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: a representative Congress that can do that, other countries will,

508
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: or the corporations themselves will, and we're all going to

509
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: be worse off for it. So whether we have a

510
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: Congress that works affects us all. And the reason why

511
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: it doesn't today is not just because of this partisan paralysis.

512
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: It's because without competitive elections, we wind up getting career

513
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: politicians who stay in office for way too long. We

514
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: have a quarter of the Congress that's over the retirement age,

515
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: over a third of the sentence above age seventy. It's

516
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: how we get congressional hearings where they're asking about tik

517
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: tak instead of TikTok. And these aren't the folks that

518
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: we needed making the decisions that are going to affect

519
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: maybe the biggest transformation our economy and society, you know,

520
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: going forward.

521
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: The biggest difficulty I have and I'll just speak for myself,

522
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: and I'm curious where you're where you are on this

523
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: what I'm about to bring up, which is I am

524
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: I am easily persuaded in the reform movement, right. I

525
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of I'm I look at the

526
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: last sort of crisis moments in American history, and each

527
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: one of them came with serious periods of reform. You know,

528
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: after the Civil War, during the basically after the Gilded Age,

529
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: and the and the and the robber barons right after,

530
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, during and after FDR and you know, both

531
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: for good and for bad, right like when, and so

532
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic that we're about to hit one of those

533
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: periods that we know, Look, we've got to do something

534
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: about the pardon power. We've got to do something. You know,

535
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: it's clear the Constitution is going to have to deal

536
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: with campaign finance issues because you can't do it legislatively.

537
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: And we've got to deal with age limits. Right, I'm

538
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: all for this age issue, but they're only you have

539
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: to do it in the Constitution. So the point is

540
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: is that I'm I can be I'm almost like a

541
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: squirrel with this. I'm like, oh I like that reform.

542
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I want to do this. There's a lot

543
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: of I've been you you go to these gatherings too.

544
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: I get invited to many of these sort of gatherings,

545
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: whether it's a fledgling third party movement, a fledgling reform movement,

546
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: you know, those advocating a constitutional convention. The folks at

547
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: the Forward Party. You've got the World Open Primaries, which

548
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: is another organization that's working in a similar fashion. I

549
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: know there's a loose connectivity between these groups, right you guys,

550
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: You know you're all rowing in the same direction. But

551
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: everybody has their own sort of laying in their own thing.

552
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: And maybe it's you already are biased that you have

553
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: got to start. Do you think you feel like there

554
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: is an order to the reform that's necessary here, that

555
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, before we get to X, we've got to

556
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: do why, and before we get to why, we got

557
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: to do Z.

558
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think two things are true. One is, we

559
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: have a beautiful system of federalism in our country, and

560
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: we can do this in an experimental way at the

561
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: state level. I mean, and that is the way that

562
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 2: these reforms have gotten done in the past and will today,

563
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: which is states can change these rules without an Act

564
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: of Congress or a constitutional amendment, and by virtue of

565
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: building momentum around reform, it will put more pressure on

566
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: Congress and potentially create an environment in which constitutional change

567
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: is possible. So I think the state by state route

568
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: is both a strategy and an opportunity to try different things.

569
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: And the second thing is I and we did not

570
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: start with primary reform as being our north star. We

571
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: got there through examining what sits at the center of

572
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: both what is most viable and could be most impactful.

573
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: And I do think that abolishing party primaries is the

574
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: biggest possible change that we can make right now that

575
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: can open the window for other potential changes down the road,

576
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: particularly changes that will require legislatures to do something, because

577
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: for them to do something on this issue, they need

578
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: to be more representative of the population who supports these

579
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: reforms than they are today. So I both support an

580
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: experimental approach to this, and we support primary reform for

581
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: a very particular reason, which I do think it is

582
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: the most solvable problem right now.

583
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the key, which is what's a problem

584
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: you could solve first? And I think there's no doubt

585
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: about that. This feels like a you know again, I

586
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: called myself an incrementalist. This is an incremental step that

587
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: could actually, you know, open the door to a whole

588
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: bunch more of ideas. Do you find yourself frustrated that

589
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: other reform minded folks don't see this as the core problem.

590
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: I think I was frustrated in year one when we're

591
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: you know, or year two, when we're back at the

592
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: same table and arguing no this one, no this one,

593
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: and realize, like we're thirty people in the room, there's

594
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty million people out there. Those are

595
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: the folks that we need to be kind of talking to.

596
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: And so my orientation changed, like this is a positive

597
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 2: sum approach to a movement. You know, when you look

598
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: at the environmental movement or other movements, there's not just

599
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: one policy that they're behind. It's a diversified approach, including

600
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: what could be done on the state or federal level.

601
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: And so it doesn't frustrate me that there are multiple

602
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: potential pathways to making our democracy better. The thing that's

603
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: frustrating to me is around apathy or defense of the

604
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: status quo, because can anyone look around today and say, oh, no,

605
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 2: this is actually fine and we're moving in an okayed direction.

606
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: If you can't, then then choose something, choose one of

607
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: these things to be for and get behind it, because

608
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: I don't think the path that we're on, you know,

609
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: is sustainable.

610
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: What's been you know, there's a lot of statistics that

611
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: show that the youngest voting generation is not registering D

612
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: or R. The registering is I or no party affiliation.

613
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: So in theory, this should be the core of the

614
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: activists that you're able to recruit to make this change.

615
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: Are you making some inroads? Is this something that can

616
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: be turned into a something that's galvanizable with the college crowd.

617
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: I do believe that. And what we saw last year

618
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: was that the number one predictor for voters that would

619
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: support election reform at the ballot was not by party affiliation,

620
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 2: It was really by age. Younger voters disproportionately in favor

621
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: of changes to a political system they've only known as

622
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: been broken, and older voter sort of more hesitant around

623
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: any potential changes to a system they've known the same

624
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 2: way while all of their lives. And that's good news,

625
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: because young voters become all voters and just a question

626
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: of time. And so I think time is a really

627
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: important lever here when you look back, as you reference

628
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: before to the progressive era when we got major reforms done,

629
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: the women won the right to vote, direct election of

630
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: the Senate, banning of corporate campaign contributions, income the big

631
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: party primaries.

632
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: People don't realize the income tax amendment was important because

633
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: it also helped create the property tax structure in America,

634
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: which is, you know, how we fund so many local services.

635
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: And that didn't happen in just a couple of years.

636
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: That was a thirty year period of time. And so

637
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: when I think about, Oh, Alaska won this transformational reform

638
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: four years ago, it suggests to me we're at the

639
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: beginning of a very exciting decade plus era of reform

640
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: in reaction to you know, historic levels of polarization and partisanship.

641
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: The country knows is just not working for them right now.

642
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: You know, we've sort of danced around this issue, but

643
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: the biggest opponent to everything you're trying to do is

644
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: the duopoly, and it's you know, the Democrats and party

645
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: in the Republican Party doesn't really work together on anything

646
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: other than this right, which is sort of protecting their

647
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: status at the ballot. You can sometimes win over local

648
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: members of a party or local party organizations if they're

649
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: in a state where they've been marginalized. But I imagine

650
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: donors are hard to come by because a donor usually

651
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: is a partisan right. They usually are passionate about something.

652
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: Is it hard to find people passionate in the very

653
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: wealthy space about reform.

654
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: Well unit in America over the years is built across

655
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: partisan community. Now over one hundred and twenty what we

656
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: call political philanthropists, and many of them have not traditionally

657
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 2: been partisan donors investing in politics for a partisan outcome.

658
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: That's fine, but there's been a lot of people on

659
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: who have come into this movement because their interest is

660
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: not trying to elect or oppose one political party or another.

661
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: It's about people who have been philanthropically mind who care

662
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: about an issue, that knows we're not going to make

663
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: progress on that issue, but for government being able to

664
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: be functional and representative of the electorates. So I would

665
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: say it's a different profile oftentimes of a donor that

666
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: gets involved in this space and from across the political

667
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: spectrum as well. It's really interesting in this work, not

668
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: just at our team or board level, but also in

669
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: the donor community of people that may not agree a

670
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: lot on particular candidates or particular policies, but we do

671
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: agree that government should represent a true majority of Americans.

672
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 2: And then let's have the argument once we have, you know,

673
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: a government that can represent us.

674
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: I know you said in a few states where there's

675
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: not a referendum option that you're trying to work in

676
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: the state legislature, obviously you have to go with the

677
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: lowest common denominator. Stuff is it? Is it simply allowing

678
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: independence in primaries. That's about the about the best you

679
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: can hope for in convincing a legislature to do something

680
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: in the near term.

681
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: I do think that legislatories will take more time to

682
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: bring along to more ambitious reforms. But let's remember that

683
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: California adopted it's all candidate primary system by legislative referral,

684
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: so some states legislators might be willing to at least

685
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: put it on the ballot. It takes leadership, though Governor

686
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: Schwarzenegger was instrumental, you know, in that campaign. And when

687
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: I look at incoming governors like an Abigail Spandberger who

688
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: serves in you know, have one term in Virginia, maybe

689
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: this is something that schol champion is part of her

690
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: legacy there to say this will be good for the

691
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: commonwealth out into the future. Let's get this done. I

692
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: think when we have executive leadership that leans into the issue,

693
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: legislatures may be more likely to follow.

694
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,839
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Speaker 1: That's get sold dot Com promo code toodcast for thirty

718
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: percent off. Look, I mean, I'm just ecstatic that is

719
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: a Virginia voter. I don't have to register by party,

720
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: and I at least get a choice what primary, you know,

721
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: and I always just find the competitive primary and I

722
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: vote in it. So I you know, Virginia is a

723
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: place where I where you feel like, no matter where

724
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: what your ideological stripe is, you at least have some

725
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 1: say in the conversation. But Virginia may also repeal a

726
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: constitutional amendment on redistricting reform in a couple of months,

727
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: and California just did it, and I look at what

728
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: happened there. There was real momentum on redistricting reform just

729
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: four or five years ago. And I would bet frankly

730
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: that movement had more momentum than your movement did. We

731
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: were part of that. Actually, yeah, for me, but it

732
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: had a and and it's amazing how that flipped that quickly.

733
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: Are you at all I mean, are you at all

734
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: demoralized at how people who are reformers are going? Yeah,

735
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: but on this, I mean I just have struggled, you know,

736
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: And I've had this debate with friends out in California.

737
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: I said, Look, I just don't understand why. If disenfranchising

738
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: voters in Texas is bad, why is the answer disenfranchising

739
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: voters in California.

740
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm with you. I think fighting fire with fire means

741
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: everything just burned and is down. So it was not

742
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 2: in favor of what California is expression. However, the instinct,

743
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 2: which is that I get it, I get it, yep.

744
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: And I also think it's important to bring it back

745
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 2: to why it's happening. When Texas redistricted, when Missouri followed suit,

746
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: and now there's pressure in Indiana. It's because the president

747
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: right now is weaponizing the primary system to get it done.

748
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: When he goes sweeps into a state, it is get this,

749
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 2: find me five more seats, or I'm going to primary

750
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: you in your next election. So I think it's important

751
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: we connect the dots back to the political incentives piece,

752
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: which is how primaries can be weaponized not just to

753
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: push people to the extremes, but to push them to

754
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 2: do undemocratic things to consolidate power. The opposite is true

755
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: as well, or the other side of the coin, which

756
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 2: is that if we didn't have party primaries, this challenge

757
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: of safe districts or districts that are heavily lopside would

758
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: matter less, Chuck, because there would be more competition in

759
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 2: the general election if we advanced more than two candidates

760
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: rather than what it is you know right now. And

761
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: so I think the answer to.

762
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: Go ahead and create a partisan right, go ahead and

763
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: create a partisan plus twenty district in California. At least

764
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: there'll be a top two in the same party, and

765
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: then they fight over you know, you know, left versus center.

766
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I always thought Berman Sherman was the first

767
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 1: one of these, and it was Howard Berman and Brad Sherman.

768
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: They got redistricted into the same thing together and they

769
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: both advanced to the they were in the top two, and

770
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: so it was a d on d general election. And

771
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: I remember the dividing issue was actually tart at the time,

772
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: and one of them had been you know, voted against it.

773
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: One of them voted for it, and that essentially they

774
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: were wooing the third of Republicans that were in their district. Right,

775
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: they were both Democrats, and there was a third of

776
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,919
Speaker 1: Republicans that were the swing voter. And I thought, boy,

777
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: that that could really if if we could have that

778
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: system everywhere where, at any point in time, even if

779
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: you're in the minority, you your vote could be the

780
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: swing vote. You get to decide do I want, you know,

781
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: do I want a libertarian conservative or do I want

782
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: a evangelical conservative? Right? And if that's the two choices, well,

783
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: I you know, it may not like either, but I

784
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: have a preference of which I want less, you know exactly. Yeah,

785
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: you think about it.

786
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: The midterm elections that we're going to go into in

787
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the districts, these elections are over before

788
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: people show up in November, and their vote, if they

789
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 2: cast it really doesn't matter.

790
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: We're going to have a one hundred and ten million,

791
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think we'll get one hundred and ten

792
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 1: million midterm voters, maybe one hundred and fifteen. It's turnout.

793
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: It's been amazing in the Trump era again, and maybe

794
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: there'll be thirty five congressional seats decided by ten points

795
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: or less out of four hundred and thirty five maybe.

796
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: So that's tens of millions of people. You know, who

797
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: is A vote effectively does not matter. It's impooring people vote,

798
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 2: but on participation without competition does not result in representation.

799
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: If we want your vote to matter, you have to

800
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: have a choice that is real. And so the idea

801
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: that in red districts you get to choose what kind

802
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: of Republican you want, during blue districts, what kind of

803
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 2: Democrat you want in the general election, is much better

804
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: than showing up to an election that's already been decided.

805
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I grew up growing up in Miami.

806
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: I grew up in the seventies and eighties, and I

807
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: remember my dad was a Republican Conservative, but he was

808
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: a registered Democrat. And I remember asking, and I said,

809
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: why are you Originally he says, well, there's no Republicans

810
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: down here because at the time the South, this was

811
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: back in the seventieswer every politician in the South, everybody

812
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: was a Democrat, but half the Democrats were really Republicans.

813
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: But all the local offices, he said if I want

814
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: to have to say in local primaries, you know I

815
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: got to vote. So in some ways, conservatives, older conservatives

816
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: in the South have actually been participating in primaries this

817
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: way for a long time.

818
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it all boils down to the idea

819
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: that every American should have the freedom to vote fro

820
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: whenever they want and every taxpayer funded election period. Right

821
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 2: seventy eighty percent of voters, regardless of party, believe in that.

822
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: In addition, though to the attacks on redistricting, what we're

823
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: also seeing in nine states right now is attempts by

824
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: legislators to close the primaries and actually start to register

825
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: voters by party in order to do so. That is

826
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: extremely unpopular. I mean, we just released a poll today

827
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: from Republican polster in Texas that found two thirds of

828
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: Republican primary voters support the current system. They like to

829
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: have the freedom to vote. They don't like the idea

830
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 2: of government overreach and starting to have to register publicly

831
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: what party you're from. So these attempts are driven by insiders,

832
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: driven by extreme factions where they're trying to is unpopular,

833
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: and that's one of the reasons why you know, in

834
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: America is working hard in these states to defend the

835
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: current system from going backwards. And what we have found

836
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 2: is that our allies in this in many cases are

837
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: Republican legislative leaders who know that not only is this

838
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: bad for America, it's bad for their party. When the

839
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: largest and fastest growing part of the electorate are those

840
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: that don't belong to either party, How can you expect

841
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: to win those voters over if you're kicking them out

842
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: of the process in which you're choosing your candidates. And

843
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: so it really is, you know, courageous Republican leaders in

844
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 2: many of these states that are standing up to forces

845
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 2: within their own party that want to close elections to

846
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: create more pure ideological purity that might wind up costing

847
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 2: them elections.

848
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: Is there a good privacy argument? I mean, you know,

849
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to join one of these

850
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: two clubs. Don't make me join a club. I want

851
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: the privacy of keeping my you know, I may lean

852
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: one way or the other, but I'd prefer the government

853
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: and anybody that checks my vote a registration to just

854
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: see I'm a registered voter period. I don't think you

855
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 1: should know my politics now. You may learn it over time,

856
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: but I don't want to have to identify. I mean,

857
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: it's sort of a strange thing that government is making

858
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: people do this in a quote unquote democracy.

859
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean, we adopted the secret ballot a century ago

860
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 2: to give people privacy over their right to vote. In

861
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: many states, however, we force people to register publicly with

862
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: the political party. Go into some database, I can see what.

863
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: Party you belong to.

864
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: In many states don't have this system today, and that's

865
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: what those those states.

866
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: Are trying to change.

867
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: And I agree with you that it's an invasion of privacy,

868
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: particularly in an era of politics in which one's party

869
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: affiliation can be used against them.

870
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: Now, it gets weaponized culturally, it can be weaponized at

871
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: your job. It can do this. I mean, you know

872
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: the local part well, the local Democratic Party here in

873
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: Arlington County, if you want to participate in some of

874
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: the county primaries, because Virginia, each county can sort of

875
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: party can decide how they want to do it. So

876
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: they don't have party primaries, they don't have taxpayer fund

877
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: of primaries, but they do have their own party primary

878
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: and you have to sign a pledge if you want

879
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: to participate in it. And I just won't do that.

880
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: I know the pledge is meaningless, but I kind of feel,

881
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: you know, but I don't think they have the right

882
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: to ask that right now. It is a privately funded

883
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: election that they run, so okay, it's private organization. They

884
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: can have that say. So I just don't participate in.

885
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: I won't participate in in because there're sometimes the Republicans

886
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: have gone off and on about doing the same thing

887
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: where they make you sign an oath because there isn't

888
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: a there isn't party registration in this state. So let

889
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: me shift in our last few minutes here to the

890
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: other areas of reform to focus on. So I agree

891
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: with you. I think primaries number one are sort of

892
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: easy to communicate to people that it's a problem, right,

893
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: it's a we're polarized. Hey, it's this primary issue. People

894
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: get it. So I'm with you. I think it is

895
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: the good first reform to focus on what's next. What's two, three,

896
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: and four in your head? I think it's a good question.

897
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: I think we need to do something on campaign finance.

898
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: It's a salient issue for most voters. They don't like

899
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: the idea of special interests or wealthy interests having disproportionate

900
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: say in our political system that will likely require a

901
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: constitutional amendment. There's something the other number two issue. When

902
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: you ask people what's wrong with.

903
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 2: Politics today, one's money in politics, the next is career politicians.

904
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 2: And I think there is something to do with age

905
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: limits and term limits to make sure that we have

906
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: a Congress that can reasonably turn over with time and

907
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: remain both nimble to the issues of the day, you know,

908
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: and representative of people. Again, those may require amendments, so

909
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: those are harder, you know, lifts. I'm also frankly interested

910
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: in what may not be a reform that requires a

911
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: change in law or state constitutions. But how do we

912
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: think about other ways we do democracy outside of an

913
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 2: electoral context. And there's a growing movement around deliberative democracy

914
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 2: and citizen assemblies, which are essentially randomly assembled groups of

915
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 2: citizens that can deliberate on issues and make recommendations to government.

916
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: I think they're interesting ways where they can actually be

917
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 2: integrated into the government.

918
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 1: Like a jury pool, but instead of for deciding somebody's

919
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: guilt or innocence. Okay, Arlington County is going to do

920
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: a random jury of one hundred citizens because we want

921
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 1: to decide whether we want to put bike lanes everywhere, right, Yeah.

922
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: I mean, and this goes back to Athenian democracy. I mean,

923
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: this is not a new idea. This is actually how

924
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: democracy was done in the very early days and.

925
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: The idea it's what Datokville loved about our democracy. It

926
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: was how local it was and how engaged we were

927
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: at the township level.

928
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this could be even more important

929
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 2: as our information ecosystem is transformed and in many ways

930
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 2: polluted and distorted by artificial intelligence. How do we protect

931
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 2: the spaces in which democracy can be done?

932
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,919
Speaker 1: So mean, this intrigues me is who's trying this? Any

933
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: community out there trying this?

934
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: There are local communities in fact here in Montrose, Colorado,

935
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: and for Colins have done citizen assemblies. There have been

936
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 2: How does it work?

937
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: Give me an example of how the citizen assembly worked

938
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: for Collins especially.

939
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: People will approach in different ways. The sort of ideal

940
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 2: way is a process of what they call sortition, which

941
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: is random selection of citizens. They are incentivized for participation,

942
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 2: like compensated for their time, but they might meet a

943
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 2: few times on a weekend over the course of a

944
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 2: few weeks. They're presented with information and arguments from different

945
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 2: perspectives on an issue and then they liberate in a

946
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 2: facilitated way together to render a particular you recommendation or

947
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 2: perspective that then say, goes to the city council and

948
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: so binding. No, although it could be set up in

949
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: a binding way, but right now, many of the ones

950
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: that are being done are advisory, you know, in nature.

951
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 2: I think there are interesting ways in which may be

952
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 2: integrated into the citizen initiative process itself. We can use

953
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 2: citizen assemblies to determine what gets to go to the ballot.

954
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's an improvement in what direct democracy,

955
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, can look like. So I would say like

956
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 2: over the next decade plus, there's going to be needs

957
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: to reimagine what democracy looks like. I mean, we're coming

958
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 2: up on our two hundred and fiftieth anniversary as a country.

959
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: We've gotten here, I think by continuing to look at

960
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 2: and innovate and improve the way that we can self govern,

961
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 2: and we need to be responsive to the times. And

962
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 2: so whether it's these election reforms or citizen assemblies, the

963
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: ideas that we need to keep democracy fresh to keep

964
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 2: it working.

965
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I would. I would. I've always thought

966
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 1: about this, and you know, I joke that if you

967
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: live in the state of New Hampshire for more than

968
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,479
Speaker 1: ten years, you're going to end up in the state

969
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: legislature at some point when you have a four hundred

970
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: members state House. But I used to think, what if

971
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: that were just four hundred random people that were selected

972
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: to be in the you know, and then you brought

973
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: them together just like you would a jury, and okay,

974
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: this is the legislature. We're going to compensate you for

975
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: your time. You're the citizen legislature for the l and hey, look,

976
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: if you feel like any you vet them, maybe you know,

977
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: certain people can't serve, and you know whatever, you can

978
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: come up with some criteria. But compulsory representation is something

979
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: that I've actually been curious about, where you basically, okay, yeah,

980
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: once every twenty years, I got to sit on the

981
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: city council, you know, once every twenty twenty years, I

982
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: got to do six months. I got to do six

983
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: weeks at the state capitol. You know, I think we

984
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: would get better. I think we would certainly get outcomes

985
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: that were more reflective of the population.

986
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: I mean, if you put in a poll right now

987
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: and ask most Americans, would you rather keep the five

988
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five leaders we currently have in Congress

989
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: or do a lottery and try out something new for

990
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: a couple of years. I'd be interested how to come back,

991
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people

992
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 2: would be open to trying something a bit new. And

993
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 2: this model, like you said, is not a foreign concept.

994
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: Juries make life or death decisions the trust. Really they

995
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 2: are also capable of informing what our marginal tax rate

996
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: could be.

997
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: Now you look at it, it feels like there are

998
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: a couple of rural states that would be more open

999
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: to trying this first, you know, And it could be

1000
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: interesting whether it's a you could see easily see one

1001
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: of the New England states being open to this concept.

1002
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,919
Speaker 1: I mean, the New Hampshire State House can be such

1003
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: a pain in the ass with how many specials, you know,

1004
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: we have foreignered members. There's always somebody who's you know,

1005
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: can't do it, or can't go or this or that.

1006
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: If you told me they transition to something like this

1007
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: in twenty years would shock me. By the way.

1008
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 2: The pathway that many of these reforms take at the

1009
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: state level is through the initiative process where citizens get

1010
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: to decide this and shape their own government directly, and

1011
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: that process needs to be protected. It is under attack

1012
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 2: in many states right now by legislatures that are trying

1013
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 2: to increase the threshold of what it takes to pass

1014
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: the ballot initiative to make it harder to qualify. So

1015
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: I think everyone who cares about democracy, and especially in

1016
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: the reform movement, ought to be working together to make

1017
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 2: sure that we protect and improve the citizen initiative process.

1018
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: There will be initiatives on the ballot next November that

1019
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: will both attempt to make things worse that we need

1020
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 2: to defeat, and a couple of states innovating with constitutional

1021
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: protections of the initiative process so that legislatures can't undo

1022
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 2: them in the future.

1023
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: I scared Jack dan Forth on the idea of a

1024
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: constitutional convention. He fears it that you know that you

1025
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: know it implies that we're scrapping the Constitution, and he's like,

1026
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 1: I love our constitution, we just need to amend it.

1027
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, it's a gathering to basically consider amendments,

1028
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: is what I'm what I'm advocating, But not everybody is.

1029
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 1: There's always when when you throw this idea out there.

1030
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: It's more folks on the left who are skeptical of

1031
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: it these days than folks on the right. And in fact,

1032
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: had Clinton won in ninety six, I think it was

1033
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: Greg Abbott at the time as governor of Texas was

1034
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: basically wanting to to lead a movement of states to

1035
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: call for a constitutional convention. And you know, had Clinton

1036
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: one in sixteen, that might have been what the right

1037
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: would have focused on. It might have been an interesting exercise.

1038
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: But do you think it would Is that a fool's

1039
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: errand in your mind? Or is it something that whose

1040
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: time might be now?

1041
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 2: I think the time was before now for a convention

1042
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 2: to re examine some of the not principles of our

1043
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: constitutional design are checks and balances or our separation powers,

1044
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: but the structures. I mean, whether you believe there ought

1045
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 2: to be an electoral college or not, no one can

1046
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 2: argue that it's functioning in the way the founders designed it.

1047
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 2: So what does it look like to improve and modernize that?

1048
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: Well? I got a simple solution to that. Double the size,

1049
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: go back to increasing the size of the House every

1050
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: ten years, and then your electoral college and your popular

1051
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: vote will no longer I mean right now, every four years,

1052
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: the likelihood of a split decision between the electoral college

1053
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: and the popular vote is more likely, not less likely,

1054
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: because we have not expanded the numerator of the electoral

1055
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: vote of the electoral college. And if we double the

1056
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: size of the House, I promise you nobody will be

1057
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: complaining about the electoral college.

1058
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 2: As you know, what people fear about a convention, is

1059
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 2: it the runaway convention? Well, they do something to radically,

1060
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: but we're skipped. But those critics forget there's a ratification process. Whatever,

1061
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: the practition comes up with.

1062
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: A quite high yes. Right, you don't think you're the voter. Yeah,

1063
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: I don't think we should fear it.

1064
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 2: I think we need to treat it seriously, be cautious

1065
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,439
Speaker 2: and smart about it, and embrace it as a tool

1066
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 2: the founders gave us to ensure that we can continue

1067
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 2: to endure as a representative republic for centuries to come.

1068
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: Why isn't someone trying to be the leader in convening this.

1069
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: I think that there's this sort of psychological barrier about

1070
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 2: whether constitutional change is possible. It's been what thirty years

1071
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: since the last amendment, you know past? But I think

1072
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: pressure is going to build, especially because of how if

1073
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: power continues to consolidate in the way that it does,

1074
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: if the initiative process deteriorates, then the other levels we

1075
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 2: have to make change become harder, and I think people

1076
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 2: may view this other pathways becoming increasingly necessary.

1077
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been I just feel like that the I

1078
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: think that there's agreement with this, But in some ways

1079
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: you have to have a leader, right to galvanize people

1080
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: to get there.

1081
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: Well, your next project, Chuck.

1082
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: Oh man, We've all got a lot of projects. Right,

1083
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: let me get you out of here on this. You

1084
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: ran for office once before, you still have the itch.

1085
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 2: Not under today's party primary system, I can tell you that.

1086
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: You live in Colorado, it's the least partisan or the

1087
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: least primary impact. I mean, certainly primaries have some certainly

1088
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: or but it's less so, right.

1089
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Although I think Colorado is heading the direction of

1090
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 2: many other places where the primaryism is causing our state

1091
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: to become a lot more partisan. It's one of the

1092
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: states that we continue to work on for form. But

1093
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 2: we'll say having had the experience of running for office

1094
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 2: early on was good in being grounded and how voters

1095
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: actually think about democracy and elections, not just an academic

1096
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 2: perspective on this, and I feel grateful to be in

1097
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: a role right now to make the biggest impact I

1098
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 2: can that can impact how people who runs and how

1099
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 2: they govern and at scale.

1100
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: You ran as an independent, So let me get you

1101
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: out of here actually on this topic, which is what

1102
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: do you think Mike Duggan is running into right now

1103
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: running is independent in Michigan That he didn't expect that

1104
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: you would have been able to tell him how He

1105
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: asked you that, Oh, yeah, this is how many voters

1106
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: view third party candidates are independent.

1107
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, be wary of the early polls that show voters

1108
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 2: would like the idea of an independent.

1109
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: And looks really good at first, doesn't it exactly?

1110
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: But I think the most important thing for any independent

1111
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 2: is to achieve escape velocity, which is to say, you

1112
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 2: have to be able to prove that you are viable

1113
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 2: before voters really start paying attention and ask if you are.

1114
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: And that happens well before election days. So unlike the

1115
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: traditional playbook where you spend most of your resources in

1116
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 2: the last ninety days, you know your November election is

1117
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: actually months earlier because you have too interesting that you

1118
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 2: can be a.

1119
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: What does that look like being showing up in the

1120
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: conventional places that other candidates do? Is it money? What

1121
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: is it that you think? And I know this is

1122
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: a bit subjective, but generally, what do you think that

1123
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: voters are looking for to decide, oh, you're legitimate?

1124
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: I think in the past the heuristic would be like

1125
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 2: traditional media coverage, the press taking you seriously, do you

1126
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 2: get a debate? Are you as the what are you

1127
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 2: pulling at? But today I think that's changing because the

1128
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 2: metric that probably matters most in our politics is attention.

1129
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 2: Are you getting attention? Am I hearing from you? Are

1130
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 2: you breaking through? I think that works in the favor

1131
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 2: of independent candidates the extent that there are a fewer

1132
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 2: gatekeepers that are saying whether you're credible or not, but

1133
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 2: you can reach voters directly in a more democratized way

1134
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: than ever has been the case. I'm hoping that we

1135
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 2: might see a couple of these candidates actually break through

1136
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 2: what has been that glass ceiling and then show that

1137
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 2: it's possible.

1138
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: Nick Treada, you always give me a little more hope,

1139
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: your your glasses half full on.

1140
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 2: This reform movement. Aren't you continue to stick there? There's

1141
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 2: no other choice, So let get it done right.

1142
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: There's only forward, right, there's there's my friends at a

1143
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: certain third party like to say, you know, we only

1144
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: have one choice. We have to move forward exactly. Thank you, John,

1145
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: great to talk with you. There's a reason results matter

1146
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: more than promises, just like there's a reason. Morgan and

1147
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,959
Speaker 1: Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. For the last

1148
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: thirty five years, they've recovered twenty five billion dollars for

1149
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,439
Speaker 1: more than half a million clients. It includes cases where

1150
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: insurance companies offered next to nothing, just hoping to get

1151
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: away with paying as little as possible. Morgan and Morgan

1152
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,919
Speaker 1: fought back ended up winning millions. In fact, in Pennsylvania,

1153
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: one client was awarded twenty six million dollars, which was

1154
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: a staggering forty times the amount that the insurance company

1155
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: originally offered. That original offer six hundred and fifty thousand

1156
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Speaker 1: dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

1157
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: So with more than one thousand lawyers across the country,

1158
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Speaker 1: they know how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured,

1159
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: you need a lawyer, you need somebody to get your

1160
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: back check out for the People dot Com slash podcast

1161
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 1: or dial pound law pound five two nine law on

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1164
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Speaker 1: is free unless they win