1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: It's late nineteen seventy five, just a few months after 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: Betty Jane's fired from Viva, and Viva publisher Bob Guccioni 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: is under fire. Bob's a central figure in the sexual revolution, 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: but he's also a central enemy of anti porn feminists, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: a group that's expanding with a chorus that's growing louder 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: by the day. The marcher's aim was clear, let's kill 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: the four billion dollar industry that exploits females and female bodies, 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: young and old. 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: I'm ripping this up for incest survivors and right victims. 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 3: This is what I have to say to Bob Guccioni. 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: The early seventies famously ushered in a new kind of 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: get hip, get sexy, sexual liberation, which was mostly liberating 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: for men, but we'll get to that in a minute. 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: But by the mid seventies, porn makers like Bob are 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: sorting out just how far this liberation can go. So 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: while Kathy's been ramping up the cox at Viva, Bob's 17 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: been pushing the limits of what porn can be at Penhouse, 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: which means more vulva shown more explicitly than ever before. 19 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: Bob's getting attacked in both courtrooms and the court of 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: public opinion by groups on both sides of the political aisle. 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: By some, he's considered a free speech martyr and a hero, 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 1: but mainly he's seen as a larger than life symbol 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: of everything that's wrong and misogynistic about porn. Here's Bob 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: defending himself on sixty Minutes around this time. 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 4: What do you say to those people, particularly women, who 26 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 4: say the sole purpose of Penthouse and the other magazines 27 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,279 Speaker 4: is to demean women. We lord women, We uplift women. 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 4: We make life seem impossible without them. We were the 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 4: first people in New York to help finance the Equal 30 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 4: Rights Amendment. 31 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: He's talking about the Era, a proposed constitutional amendment which 32 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: would have guaranteed equal rights for all sexes, an amendment 33 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: that came close, but for a variety of reason and 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: conservatives being one never passed. 35 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 4: We were the first corporate group to come out and 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 4: donate money to Equal Rights Moment with Viva and I 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 4: have more women working for me that I have men, 38 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 4: more female executives working that I have male executives. 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: Bob loves to talk about how pro woman he is, 40 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: how many women he employs, how much he pays, and 41 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: all of this is true. His approach to business and 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: sexuality is incredibly progressive for the time, but he's not 43 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: letting his arguments stop there. 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 4: Well, if it wasn't for the fact that we are 45 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 4: all of us so damn dishonest about sex, we wouldn't 46 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 4: have the guilt that we have about it. And if 47 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 4: we didn't have the guilt we have about it, we 48 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 4: wouldn't have the problems that we do now. 49 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: The guilt and shame that Bob is referring to is 50 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: a very real thing for everyone, But guilt and shame 51 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: regarding sex for women arguably comes from a very different 52 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: place than it does men. It's a lot more complex, 53 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: and it's made even more complicated by men like Bob. 54 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: And despite what he seems to think, the get hip, 55 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: gets sexy attitude of Viva and Penthouse isn't necessarily helping 56 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: alleviate that guilt. In a lot of ways. It might 57 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: even be making it a little bit worse for some women. 58 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: So Bob's now at war with anti porn feminists while 59 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: publishing a feminist porn magazine, which means Viva, well, it's 60 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of at war with itself and in order to 61 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: understand what happens next at Viva. In this episode, we're 62 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: going to zoom out from the day to day Viva 63 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: story and dive into the seventies feminist porn wars, because 64 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: like any war, this one's complicated, full of skewed history, 65 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: conflicting motivations and beliefs, and the good guys they're not 66 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: quite as easy to identify as you'd think from crooked media, 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. I'm Jennifer Ramalini and this is Stiffed Episode five, 68 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: not So Porno Chic Act one Zipless fuck over. Now, 69 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: none of us will really know why Bob GUCCIONI hated 70 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: Viva's rape issue enough to have editor Betty Jane fired 71 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: over it. But it's fair to say by putting out 72 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: their rape issue, the Viva editors were tripping a wire. 73 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: This topic is a hot button, not just for their boss, 74 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: but for the public in general. And according to Bob's 75 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: sixty minutes interview, that's not the kind of content the 76 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: Penthouse universe is about. 77 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 4: Bebby God. Penhouse is an entertainment medium. First, I don't 78 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 4: think I'm not a missionary. The fact that it may 79 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 4: also be informative is by the way, it is first 80 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: and entertainment medium, and. 81 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: In his defense of his porn empire, Bob's also beating 82 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: another drum directly related to Viva's rape issue, and quite 83 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: possibly why he was so defensive with Betty Jane. Here's 84 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: Bob in a Nightwatch interview from the eighties with Christopher Glenn. 85 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: We heard part of their conversation earlier in the series. 86 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 5: So some people say, when they speak disparagingly of your activities, 87 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 5: that reading magazines such as yours increases violent to sexual crimes, 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 5: et cetera, etc. And sure enough, here comes a study 89 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 5: published last week by researchers at the University of New 90 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 5: Hampshire that say it says essentially, at the higher of 91 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 5: the readership for men's magazine in a given state, the 92 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 5: higher the incidents of reported rate. 93 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 4: Well, let me tell you that that's a lot of crap, 94 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 4: it's a lot of bold dash. Anybody came out with 95 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 4: a study like that is faking it. It just simply 96 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 4: isn't true. And every single study that's been done, including 97 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: the presidential study under I believe it was Johnson, where 98 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 4: you have real sexually explicit material available to the public, 99 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 4: there is an enormous decrease decrease in any incidence of 100 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 4: sexual crimes. 101 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: Well, Bob's saying here is not entirely untrue, but he's 102 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: pushing the argument a little far. In recent studies, like 103 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: one from the University of Texas in twenty twenty that 104 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: explored the connection between porn and sexual aggression over the 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: past forty years, researchers found there was no correlation between 106 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: sexually explicit material and sexual violence. But that doesn't mean 107 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: access to porn decreased crimes. Here's Bob digging in further 108 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: on that argument, and this time it's definitely a giant stretch. 109 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: There are a lot of people that require what you 110 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 4: call hardcore smut for its therapeutic value. You know, that 111 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 4: sort of guy is kept from invading the privacy of 112 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 4: other citizens, kept from committing crimes of rape and other 113 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 4: sex crimes. 114 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: Yes, he's saying penthouse and porn itself prevents rape. Not 115 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: the chillest nor most accurate argument, But remember, Bob is 116 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: not chill about porn right now, and neither is anyone else. 117 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: In fact, by the mid seventies and ramping up into 118 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: the eighties, the whole country is freaking the fuck out. 119 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 6: The feminists hated porn because they felt it was the 120 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 6: man's view of sex and that women were not included. 121 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: That's feminist writer and icon Erica Jong talking about a 122 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: certain fraction of feminists starting to crop up at the time. 123 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 6: Okay, so I would ask the question, what if we 124 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 6: wrote our own explicit stuff, How would it be different, 125 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 6: How would women's explicitness be different from men? And if 126 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 6: women have a different view, is it, let's write about it. 127 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Erica Jong's one of the first women, starting in the 128 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: seventies to write explicitly about women's sexuality in a big, proud, 129 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: mainstream way. But let's back up a bit. Jong's work 130 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: in the early seventies probably would not have received the 131 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: attention it did without the pro sex, pro female pleasure 132 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: feminism of the late sixties, a movement that imagined what 133 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: a true sexual liberation could look like for women. 134 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 7: In the early consciousness raising sessions of the late sixties 135 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 7: were talking. Nineteen sixty seven nineteen sixty eight, there were 136 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 7: women talking about their desires and talking about pleasure. 137 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: That's writer Nonah Willis o'roonowitz, author of the book Bad Sex, Truth, Pleasure, 138 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: and An Unfinished revolution, which she's talking about. Here are 139 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: the same consciousness Raisin groups we talked about the beginning 140 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: of this series, the ones attended by Viva editors like 141 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: Pat Linden and Gabe Bryant, the ones where women started 142 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: asking questions about their lives they'd never really asked before. 143 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 7: What do we want from these relationships? What do we 144 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 7: want from sex? It's not like one female experience materialized 145 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 7: from these sessions, but the point was prioritizing this quest 146 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 7: for pleasure, and I think it was exhilar for these 147 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 7: women to just say their desires. 148 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: This pro sex late sixties feminist movement is mostly underground, 149 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: but it sparks something broader. In fact, it's the spark 150 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: that helps light the fire of the seventy sexual revolution, 151 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: a fire that's ignited in part by Erica John's landmark 152 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: feminist novel Fear of Flying, which comes out in nineteen 153 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: seventy three, the same year as Viva. Fear of Flying 154 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: is a runaway success and international bestseller. Most famously and importantly, 155 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: the book introduces the concept of the zipless fuck, which 156 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: basically said straight women sometimes wanted sex with no strings attached. 157 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: Here's journalist Christine Emba reading one of the most famous 158 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: passages from John's Fear of Flying. 159 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 8: The zipless fuck is free of ulterior motives. There's no 160 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 8: power game. The man is not taking and the woman 161 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 8: is not giving. No one is attempting to prove anything 162 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 8: or get anything out of anyone. The zipler fuck is 163 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 8: the purest thing there is. 164 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: Emba talks a lot about this kind of pure casual 165 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: sex in her own book, Rethinking Sex, which covers sexual 166 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: ethics from the nineteen sixties to today. 167 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 8: Basically, what she's talking about is sex like women being 168 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 8: able to have sex without being used, without their sexuality 169 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 8: being used for something else, like to prove something, or 170 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 8: like just having sex for sort of the pleasure of it. 171 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 8: And Yeah, I think that did resonate with women because 172 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 8: you know, for so long there is this discourse about how, 173 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 8: like men want sex, women want love. 174 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: Emba devotes an entire chapter of her book to the 175 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: zipless fuck and what it meant to the sexual revolution. 176 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 8: When the term the zipless fuck was popularized, what the 177 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 8: public understanding of that was like, Oh, women just want 178 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 8: to have casual sex with no feelings really fast, Like 179 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 8: they just want to have empty sex with more people 180 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 8: and I guess that conclusion felt rising to people too. 181 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: It's true, this idea of Erica Jong's about centering female 182 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: pleasure in the seventies, it was extremely controversial. Here's Erica again. 183 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 6: I was amazed, actually that people were shocked, because I 184 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 6: thought what I was saying was so obvious, that there 185 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,359 Speaker 6: was a whole realm of feeling that was being unreported. 186 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 6: I didn't think this would surprise anybody, but. 187 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: Talking about women's desires in the beginning of the sexual 188 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: revolution weirdly did surprise lots of people. 189 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 6: I was absolutely commenting on what I thought was missing 190 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 6: from the conversation. The conversation about sex was had in 191 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 6: male terms. 192 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: The sex industry was then as it is today, mainly straight, 193 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: male shaped, male funded, and male benefiting. But there are 194 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: pro sex feminists in the early seventies like Johng who 195 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: trying to change this. 196 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 6: I tried to introduce the female view, the female feeling, really, 197 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 6: that's all. And the fact that anybody found that shocking 198 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 6: is amazing to me. 199 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: The successive fear of flying makes John the face of 200 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: a kind of feminist sexual rebellion. She's everywhere in the seventies. 201 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: There's even a big profile of her in Viva, though 202 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: not every feminist is psyched about her success, and not 203 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: every Viva editor appreciated her work. I asked Viva editor Pat, 204 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: do you remember Erica Jong at all. 205 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 9: At the oh time? Yeah, yeah, I do, I remember. 206 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 9: I didn't think too much of it. 207 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: Henry Miller said that she was changing women's lives the 208 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: way he had changed men's lives. 209 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 9: Maloney, she did a sort of porny kind of stuff. 210 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 9: She was just one of many, and she had her 211 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 9: own voice, and she was and you know, she was 212 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 9: making it. 213 00:12:58,360 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 7: Now. 214 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: Pat's more on the conservative side of things, and while 215 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: she's not totally anti porn, she's emblematic of this split 216 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 1: in second wave feminism at this time, a fracture in 217 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: the movement that's about to quake because the thing that's 218 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: splintering them is porn. And porn is suddenly everywhere. It's unavoidable, 219 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: in your face, and for the first time it's not 220 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: just in print. And with the explosion of mainstream porn, 221 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: the initial mission of the pro sex feminist starts to 222 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: get twisted, and the fires sparked by Erica John and 223 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: others in the early Sexual Revolution start to blaze out 224 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: of their control. 225 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 8: Understanding and valuing female sexuality does not look the same 226 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 8: as like, well, here's a porn set. Now you can 227 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 8: just like help a man get off even more times 228 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 8: than you would have. 229 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 9: In the past. 230 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: Act twomists at War. By the mid seventies, it's fair 231 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: to say pornography is everywhere in America. It's on local 232 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: newsstands and magazine form, but it's also in your hometown's 233 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: neighborhood movie theater. Here's Viva's film critic Molly Haskell. 234 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 6: They were sut a softcore porn and they went mainstream 235 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 6: and people were talking about them. They went they were 236 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 6: opening up legitimate theaters. 237 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: Most famously, the porn movie Deep Throats, playing in dozens 238 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: of mainstream theaters across the country. It's bringing in millions 239 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: of dollars. It's a must see. 240 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 10: Deep Throat was a hardcore porn film starring Linda Lovelace, 241 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 10: who appeared to show off in it's a talent for 242 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 10: taking a penis very deep into her throats. 243 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: That's Karina Longworth, the film historian and longtime host of 244 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: the podcast. You must remember this, and it's important to 245 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: know that before this time, porn movies didn't really exist. 246 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: There were stag films, but they were short, poor quality, 247 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: didn't have plots. There was no internet, no streaming. If 248 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: you wanted to watch porn back then, you could maybe 249 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: maybe see these films in a private men's club which 250 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: only men saw them. Women had not been involved in 251 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: porn viewing, and suddenly now they were. There's an in 252 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: the no cool factor surrounding Deep Throat, and it helps 253 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: kick off an entire cultural trend, porno chic. 254 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 10: So the New York Times came up with the term 255 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 10: porno chic to explain what was happening when people who 256 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 10: were not creepy men in raincoats started to see movies 257 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 10: like Deep Throat in movie theaters, and it started to 258 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 10: become expected that you would go see a movie like 259 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 10: Deep Throat so that you could keep up with cocktail 260 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,239 Speaker 10: party conversation. 261 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: If books like Fear of Flying helped spark the pro 262 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: sex feminist movement, movies like Deep Throat unleashed anti high 263 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: porn feminist fury in a way that becomes impossible to contain. 264 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: Because the Americans going out to see Deep Throat in 265 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: the seventies cannot be dismissed as young perverts. They're regular 266 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: people and not so regular people. They're celebrities like Johnny 267 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: Carson and Jack Nicholson and even Angela Lansbury who are 268 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: proudly publicly lining up at the box office and telling 269 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: their friends. 270 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 10: There's a period of I think two maybe three years 271 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 10: where amongst the top ten highest grossing movies of the 272 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 10: whole year of all movies, there is an X rated 273 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 10: hardcore pornography movie on that top ten, their first one 274 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 10: being Deep Throat, which is on the same top ten 275 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 10: as The Godfather Too. 276 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: And Deep Throat is important for all sorts of cultural reasons, 277 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: but it also perfectly encapsulates the question who exactly is 278 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: being liberated by sexual liberation during this time. 279 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 10: The narrative suggests that this is a frigid woman who's 280 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 10: like has had sex but has never been able to 281 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 10: enjoy it until she discovers that her clitteress is deep 282 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 10: into her throat and so the only way to reach 283 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 10: it is by like sticking a big dick all the 284 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 10: way down in there. 285 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: This discovery is made by Linda Lovelace's doctor, who is 286 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: of course a man. Here's a clip from the film 287 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: Have You. 288 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 7: Ever Taken a penis all the way down to the 289 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 7: bottom of your throat. 290 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 6: No, I try, but I choke. 291 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: Oh well, now I hear. 292 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 4: It's a matter of discipline. 293 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: And while up until this point, pro sex feminists were 294 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: trying to center their own sexual pleasure in the Sexual Revolution, 295 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: this is not exactly what they were bargaining for. 296 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 10: The Sexual Revolution sort of pretended to be about women's pleasure, 297 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 10: but really Wasn't you know this is a narrative of 298 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 10: a film which says it's about giving women orgasms. But 299 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 10: women do not have glittericism in the back of their throats. 300 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 10: It is absolutely possible that some women enjoy deep throating. 301 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 10: They could enjoy it for many reasons. They could even 302 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 10: feel orgasmic from it, but not have clitterses in their throats. 303 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: Also important is that right before deep throat and porno chic, 304 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: pro sex feminists had just started bringing awareness to female 305 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: anatomy and what it meant to pleasure it. And part 306 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: of that awareness was an education about clitteresses and how clitterises, 307 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: not vaginal penetration, are the key that unlocks the door 308 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: to where a woman's orgasm is hiding. Here's Nona willis 309 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: Aronowitz again. 310 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 7: You know, the clitteral orgasm was on the tips of 311 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 7: everybody's tongues, no pun intended, So I think in some 312 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 7: ways it was like a positive representation and a positive 313 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 7: osmosis to some feminist messages. But on the other hand, 314 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 7: there was a backlash embedded in a lot of these 315 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 7: narratives where ultimately men were re centered in female pleasure. 316 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: In other words, when it came to mainstream porn, the 317 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: central figure both viewer and subject was most often men, 318 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: and more specifically male anatomy. 319 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 7: And that was a way, I think to reassure all 320 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 7: these men who are looking at these porn movies, even 321 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 7: though women are liberated, don't worry. They're still obsessed with 322 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 7: your dick and they need it in order to fully 323 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 7: realize their sexual pleasure. 324 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: So Deep Throat is in many ways a mockery of 325 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: female sexuality, a joke about glitteristes and female orgasms. And 326 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: if there was ever any question about who the so 327 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: called sexual revolution is for, deep Throat makes clear that 328 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: in straight relationships, for straight women, sexual satisfaction is about 329 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: one thing, kneeling at the altar of the dick, an idea, incidentally, 330 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: that Kathy and Viva and all of its cocks is 331 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: pushing at this time too. 332 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 10: And so this movie, which ends up becoming effectively part 333 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 10: of the sexual revolution because it opens up mainstream movie 334 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 10: theaters too. Hardcore porn is selling a lie that is 335 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 10: a lie that serves what men want to do sexually 336 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 10: more than it serves what women want to do sexually. 337 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: Deep throat and porno Shika itself is a big turning 338 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: point in the sexual revolution. Straight men suddenly feel even 339 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: more entitled to sex. Here's Nona Willis Aronowitz again. 340 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 7: And a sexual revolution was through the male lens and 341 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 7: created new kinds of fines for women all of a sudden, 342 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 7: not that the sexual revolution. There were all kinds of 343 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 7: pressures to be groovy and be with it and not 344 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 7: have hang ups. And I think women felt like, why 345 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 7: am I even having sex when these guys don't care 346 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 7: about my pleasure? But if they didn't have it, they 347 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 7: were like lame or they were fruit or frigid. I 348 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 7: think it really did put women in this frustrating bind. 349 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: And some of the women working at Viva very much 350 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: felt this dichotomy. Here's Viva Annie Gottlieb. 351 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 11: Who was pretty bad time for women because we were 352 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 11: making ourselves sexually available, but we really didn't have any 353 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 11: sense that we still felt like we needed men's attention 354 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 11: to make us worthy. 355 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: And all of this makes some women think they need 356 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: to show up sexually in a different way than how 357 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: they actually feel. Here's Viva editor Pat. 358 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 9: I think everybody was putting on a big show about 359 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 9: you know, how liberated they were. You know, everybody is 360 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 9: trying to be something, something that is fashionable, something that's hip, 361 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 9: something that's with it, whatever words you want to use. 362 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 9: And the one thing that you were not supposed to 363 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 9: be was a woman who wanted a relationship with a man. 364 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: And this is where things start to split feminism in 365 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: a big way. 366 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 7: Well, man hating is interesting, right. It's like, of course, 367 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 7: if you are heterosexual, you don't hate men because you 368 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 7: desire that sexually and or desire them romantically. You want 369 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 7: to build lives with them, you want to have children 370 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 7: with them. But at the same time, if you're raising 371 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 7: your consciousness and becoming a feminist, you are going to 372 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 7: be angry at men and you are going to have 373 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 7: these aha moments of saying, what the fuck? 374 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: But this, this man hating, man loving is just too 375 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: many truths for the feminist movement to hold it once. 376 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 7: Once we hit the mid seventies. The one sect of 377 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 7: the feminist movement is really very focused on protection for women, 378 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 7: protection from men's impulses, protection from rape, domestic violence, sexual assault, 379 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 7: and pleasure really wasn't centered or part of that conversation. 380 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: And then there's the other side. 381 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 7: I think that pro sex feminists, as they were called, 382 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 7: weren't dismissing these problems, but they were saying, we have 383 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 7: to talk about a balance between pleasure and danger. 384 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: And so by the mid to lie seventies, feminism breaks 385 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: in two. There are pro sex feminists and anti porn feminists, 386 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: and the latter is quickly overtaking the movement, with more 387 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: and more women joining their cause. In fact, by nineteen eighty, 388 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: Deep Throat actress Linda Lovelace will join the movement after 389 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: stating publicly that she was physically abused on set and 390 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: coerced into many of the scenes in the film. Lovelace 391 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: will ultimately testify before Congress the quote, every time someone 392 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: watches that movie, they're watching me being raped. But Lovelace 393 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: isn't the loudest nor earliest voice in the anti porn movement. 394 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: Women like Andrea Dwarkin are out years before her ferociously 395 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: ringing this anti porn bell. 396 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: What we're doing is say that pornography is an institution 397 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: that helps to socialize men to rape, and that without 398 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: that kind of socialization, we don't take it as inevitable 399 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 2: that men will rape. 400 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: You can hear how Dowarkins stands is in direct opposition 401 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: with Bob's from that Night Watch interview earlier, and while 402 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: neither is actually wrong per se, both views are extreme. 403 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: Bob took pro pornography a little too far, and Dowarkin's 404 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: position was in many ways limiting, exclusionary, and even disempowering 405 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: because of porn And I'll throw an exotic dancing and 406 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: sex work here too. If these things can only ever 407 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: be about perpetuating violence against women, then it goes to 408 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: follow that if you are pro any of them, if 409 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: you don't want to blow up the system so much 410 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: as rehabilitate it, then according to Dwarkin's limited lens of feminism, 411 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: you're considered outside the fold, even anti sisterhood and anti 412 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: feminist itself. Here's pat again. 413 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 9: There's a memory and an image of being what feminism 414 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 9: was about, but no it was big, messy. 415 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: Miss and this is where a magazine like Viva could 416 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: have been a bridge to be both anti violence and 417 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: pro female desire, to push boundaries, to bring together anti 418 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: porn and pro sex feminists who really did have a 419 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: lot of the same goals in mind. 420 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 7: They both broadly wanted the same things, which is to 421 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 7: be able to have sex and pursue pleasure without male 422 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 7: dominance and male misogyny getting in the way. 423 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: Unconsciously or not. The Viva editors were in real time 424 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: trying to deliver something that combined the two perspectives by 425 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: interviewing sex workers and writing openly about straight women's sexual fantasies, 426 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: while also covering topics like sexual violence and consent in 427 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: their rape issue. This utopian goal of liberated sexuality is 428 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: the direction they were starting to go. But given everything 429 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: they were up against, this is a tall order, a 430 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: magic trick that's incredibly tricky to pull off. Here's editor 431 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: Ga Bryant, who was there at the inception of Viva. 432 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: You would think that Viva, Sexy and intelligent, would reflect 433 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 3: how we see ourselves, but it turned out not to. 434 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: And why did it turn out not to? 435 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 5: Well, still, to come on, the news hour the never 436 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 5: ending battle over pornography with Penhouse publisher Bob Guccioni and others. 437 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: This is Bob on yet another news show, defending his 438 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: pornography against the anti porn feminists. Remember, Bob doesn't even 439 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: like leaving his house, but this issue is important enough 440 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: that he's going out on TV a lot, and this 441 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: time he's up against the anti porn powerhouse Dorchen Leedholt. 442 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: What pornography does is it makes every woman the actual 443 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: or potential victim of sexual violence. It functions as a 444 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: kind of terrorism. It keeps us silent. Leidhold was president 445 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: of the group Women Against Pornography or WOP, which had 446 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: a different meeting in the seventies than as today. I 447 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: know what played a major role in the feminist porn wars, 448 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: and they wanted Penthouse shut down or at least censored. 449 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: But Bob's not a nubie when it comes to this debate, 450 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: and he's not afraid to dig in. 451 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 4: This is a totally subjective affair, and what demeans women 452 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 4: in her opinion may not demean women in my opinion 453 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 4: or yours or someone else's. Let me just answer by 454 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 4: quoting from a former head of the National Organization of Women. 455 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 4: She read the magazine. 456 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: He's talking about Penhouse here. 457 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 4: She went on to say, I couldn't do what I 458 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 4: was asked to do. She said, on the September issue, 459 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 4: I could find no put down of women, no suggestion 460 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 4: that women were asked to be exploited, hurt or pressed, 461 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 4: or even asked to cook dinner. There is no suggestion 462 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 4: that women be forced to have sex against their will, 463 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 4: she said. Penhouse sexy, yes, sexist no. 464 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: What Bob overlooks in all this vigorous defending of Penhouse 465 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: is that he might have actually held the key to 466 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,479 Speaker 1: unlocking this battle with anti porn feminists Viva magazine. Like 467 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: we've said before, Viva straddled a line between pro sex 468 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: and anti porn, especially with its rape issue. But Bob 469 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: forbids the editors from addressing any topics like this. As 470 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: a result, they can't possibly make a relevant feminist porn magazine. 471 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: Their hands are tied, they're kept from meeting the moment. 472 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: And as for their other boss, Kathy, she doesn't help matters. 473 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: She stands by her man and ignores the concerns of 474 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: the anti porn feminists entirely here's Kathy on Arlenehurson's show 475 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: now Here. 476 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 9: You are a successful business woman, believer in women's rights, 477 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 9: and you're missus Bob Gucciuni. 478 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 7: I'm sure you get a lot of flack from people. 479 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 3: Oh, from people. 480 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 6: A lot of extreme feminists. 481 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: I get flack from, but they really don't pay attention 482 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 4: to them. I mean, they're crazy, lunatic ringenyways. 483 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: And in her inaction around Betty Jeane's firing and her 484 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: inability to define Viva in this important moment, Kathy sets 485 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: the tone for an inevitable sea change, the fatal turn 486 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: off course in Viva that's just about to come. 487 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 2: I don't know anybody who wants to look at pictures 488 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: of male penises. I just don't. And you know, I 489 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: like the idea of a sexy magazine for women, but 490 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: this isn't sexy to me. 491 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: Stiff is an original podcast from iHeartMedia and Crooked Media. 492 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: It's produced by Crooked Media. It's hosted and written by 493 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: me Jennifer Ramalini and produced by Megan Donnas. Sidney Rapp 494 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: is our associate producer. Story editing by Mary Knock, music 495 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: sound design and engineering by Hannes Brown. Our fact checker 496 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: is Julia Paskin. Additional production support from Nafila Cato and 497 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: Inez Maza from Crooked Media. Our executive producers are Sarah Geismer, 498 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: Katy Long, and Mary Knap, with special thanks to Alison 499 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: Falsetta and Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. Our executive producers are 500 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: Beth Anne Macaluso and Julia Weaver.