1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I'm Matt, 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: and today we're discussing becoming a digital nomad and salary 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: transparency with Kristin Wong. Yeah Joel. Kristen Wong is passionate 4 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: about helping people understand money in an accessible way. She 5 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: started Life Hacker's personal finance blog called two Cents. She's 6 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: been featured in other major publications like Refinery twenty nine 7 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: and Glamor magazine, and you can currently find a writing 8 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: in Smarter Living in the New York Times. She also 9 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: authored the book Get Money last year, which is a 10 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: great beginner's guide to personal finance. So Christen, thanks so 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: much for joining us today on the show. Of course, 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Yeah, Kristin, We're glad to have you. 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: And by the way, every episode, Matt and I we 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: crack open a craft beer, and the beer we're having 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: tonight on the show is Monday Night Brewings. Lundy, I, 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: p A and Kristen we intentionally drink a craft beer 17 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: every episode. It reminds us of the fact that while 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: we're saving for the future, we also want to enjoy 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: life in the here and now, and craft beer for 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: Matt and I that's one of the ways that we're 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: able to do that and make that a priority. So 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: what is your splurge? What's your craft beer equivalent? Um, 23 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: my beer equivalent. I mean, I could say the easy, 24 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: fun thing that everybody loves, which is travel, which is 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: definitely one of them. But I have to say, like 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: one of my more guilty pleasures that I don't like 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: to readily admit is clothing I spend. Especially since my 28 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: book launch, I spent quite a bit on clothing because 29 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: I hired a personal stylist, which sounds like something I 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: would never do, but it was actually like one of 31 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: the best uses of my, you know, money in a 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: long time. I'm kind of just going off on this question. 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I did it, uh when the book launched, 34 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: because I was like, you know, I was doing a 35 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: lot of media stuff and if you know, if you 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: knew me, you would know like, yeah, she probably needs 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: a personal stylist, a kind of public public gatherings. Um. 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: And it was awesome because it just like it made 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: me confident and I didn't have to worry about how 40 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: I looked or how he was presenting when I was 41 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: talking to people, are giving speeches, so it's not a splurge. 42 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: I regret. I think it was a good call. Very cool, Christine. Yeah, 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: I love how that one thing was able to inspire 44 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: so much confidence in you and basically take one thing 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: off your plate as you're going on your book tour. 46 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: By the way, I wanted to mention one of my 47 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: favorite tweets of yours. You mentioned that you asked your 48 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: husband three things he was thankful for, and one of 49 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: the top things on his list was his Costco membership. Automatically, 50 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: I love him. I love him. I think we could 51 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: be best friends. We're going to Costco tonight. He's very 52 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: excited about it. What, Oh my gosh, can we come 53 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: to come along? Oh? Man? Well, Kristen, do you love 54 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: Costco yourself or is it just your husband? No? I 55 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: hate Costco. Have you been to a cost Go this 56 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: interview is over, Well, I have. That's why it's not 57 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: my favorite place to go either. I mean, here in Atlanta, 58 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: our Costco it's pretty far from where we live, and 59 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: so for me, that distance, you know how far it 60 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: is away from our house. That's a big reason why 61 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: I don't personally like going to Costco myself. It's not 62 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: the distance. It's the it's like Ikea on crack. It 63 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: sounds like a great company, but like actually going to 64 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: a Costco is a bit of a nightmare. And my 65 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: husband last night I was like, oh my god, we 66 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: should go to Costco tomorrow. I'm like, why don't you 67 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: just go and I can stay here? And he's like, oh, well, 68 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: the membership is in your name, so you have to go. 69 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: Oh they're not looking at the membership card that closely. 70 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure they'd let him in. He's just wanting to 71 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: spend that quality time with you. It's maybe that's his 72 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: love language, right, quality time. Oh that's that's true. Now 73 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: I feel bad. All right, tell your husband we want 74 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: to interview him next time as a Costco lover. Oh 75 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: he would love it to talk about Costco alright. Well. 76 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: On another Kristen Wong family note, it seems like you've 77 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: had an interesting relationship with money, even starting you know, 78 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: back at your childhood. In your book Get Money, you 79 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: mentioned your dad saying that money isn't the root of 80 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: all evil, not having enough is. And so it was 81 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: money discussed a lot in your family. And why did 82 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: this particular saying of your dad's stick with you. Um, yeah, 83 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: money was discussed a lot in my family, and he 84 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: would be so happy to I mean, he's happy that 85 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: that made it into the book, I think because he's like, 86 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: she listened to me, And that just kind of really 87 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: stuck with me, because you know, I think we grow 88 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: up hearing from a lot of different places that money 89 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: is bad. So it was interesting to hear this perspective 90 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: on how it's not exactly bad. I mean, money at 91 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: its core is just a tool, right, Like it's not 92 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: good or bad. But it was interesting because his take 93 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: on it sort of came from another extreme, right, like 94 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: not having enough is kind of the root of all evil. 95 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: And I don't know if I would agree with that fully. 96 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: Like it's the way that I look at money is 97 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: that it's neutral and you can use it for good things, 98 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: and you can use it for bad things, and you 99 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: can use it for neutral things like hiring a stylist 100 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: or paying your bills or saving some for tomorrow like that. 101 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: We didn't have a lot of money growing up, but 102 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: they had a huge interest in getting more money, you know. 103 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: So when I was a kid, I always used to 104 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: joke that, like it was like I wanted to grow 105 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: up and be rich just because we didn't have, like it, 106 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: money prevented us from doing so many things when I 107 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: was a kid, you know, like I wanted to travel, 108 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: We wanted to go on vacations, and we could never 109 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: do that. So I always said, you know, I want 110 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: to grow up and have a lot of money so 111 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: that I don't have to make choices and I can 112 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: kind of do the things that I want in life. 113 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: But it wasn't exactly that I wanted to grow up 114 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: and be rich. It was just that I wanted to 115 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: grow up and have enough money. As I kind of 116 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: said in the book, you know, yeah, yeah, have you 117 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: changed your tune on that at all? Like, like, as 118 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: you've grown up and you've kind of had jobs of 119 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: your own made money, has that changed your tune on 120 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: building wealth and your concept of having enough? You know, 121 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: I think it's like a lifestyle inflation thing, right, or 122 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: the Hadonic treadmill thing. You want more. Once you get more, 123 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: you want more so you want a bigger house, you 124 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: want nicer things. So in some ways it has. But 125 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: you know, I was talking about this with my husband 126 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: the other day. I remember when we met about ten 127 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: years ago, we were like it was a splurge for 128 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: us to go out to Carl's Jr. On a Friday 129 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: night after work, and we would go to the park 130 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: and just eat Carl's Junior and be like, oh, we're 131 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: so happy, We're so lucky to be able to do this. 132 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: And now our Carl's Junior has become like a much 133 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: more expensive dinner on a Friday night. And then we 134 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: were saying, like, you know, it's funny though, because we're 135 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: just as happy as we were. So I don't think 136 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: in some ways, if we had to go back to 137 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: that twelve dollar Carl's Junior mail because we got it 138 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: for twelve because we're like using coupons and stuff we're 139 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: very good at that, we would we would still be happy. 140 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: So I don't know, that's a that's a complicated that's 141 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a good question. It's a complicated question. I think, sure, 142 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: like my milestones have gotten bigger and they probably always 143 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: will be, but I'm just as happy as I was 144 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: back then. You know, in some ways, money does buy 145 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: you happiness, right like it buys you security. It can 146 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: buy you things that make you happy too, But then 147 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: there's like this overall happiness and fulfillment that like I 148 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: don't think has changed because of wealth or because of 149 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: getting more money. Kristen, your approach and how you view 150 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: money specifically as a tool, and how it's not inherently 151 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: evil and it's not inherently good. That's one of your 152 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: arguments against minimalism, right. I've read your thoughts some about 153 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: how oftentimes minimalism, Uh, it obviously paints you know, possessions 154 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: a lot of times as being evil, but with that 155 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: money also gets painted as evil, and how in reality 156 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: that that's an unhelpful and potentially harmful way for us 157 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: to view money. Can you share some more thoughts on that. Yeah, 158 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I think minimalism is sort 159 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: of misunderstood, right, Like, I think there's like the trend 160 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: of minimalism that we see and that very much is like, oh, 161 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,119 Speaker 1: wanting more things is bad and wanting too much money 162 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: is bad or at least borders on that um And 163 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: so that's what I kind of talked about in that post. 164 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: And you can take minimalism too far and it becomes 165 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: a thing that you consume just like anything else. It's 166 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: also a bit dangerous when you know, I was talking 167 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: about the argument with my mom who grew up with 168 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: Like I say that we were broke er, we didn't 169 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: have a lot of money growing up. She like had 170 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: no Like she was in a really bad situation as 171 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: a kid with money. And so she says, you know, 172 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: it's I am a minimalist because I have no choice. 173 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: That's her what she says about. It's like, it's, you know, 174 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: I live on less because I don't really have a choice. 175 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: So sometimes I I just worry a little bit when 176 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: we start telling people like be happy with less, especially 177 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: the state of our economy and our job market right now, 178 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: it just seems like a weird thing to be talking about. 179 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I do think like minimalism 180 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: can be good, right, Like you can use it as 181 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: a tool, just like money. You know, I would consider 182 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: myself a minimalist. I am happy with less. I like 183 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: having less things. Not because I begrudge people who are maximalists, 184 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: who who like to buy their happiness in material ways. 185 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: I actually think there's nothing wrong with that. For me, 186 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: it bogs me down and it's just like gives me 187 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: so much that I have to think about and maintain. 188 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, I think some of the arguments 189 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: for minimalism can be sort of snobby and sort of 190 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: discount the fact that money does buy us happiness, even 191 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: not just when we spend it on experiences, but when 192 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: we spend it on things too, and data backs that up. Yeah, Christen, 193 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think minimalism can be super 194 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: hip right now in a lot of circles. But there 195 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: are other people who are basically minimalist because of a 196 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: lack of economic power, and so yeah, there's definitely that 197 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: dichotomy there where it is kind of hip for people 198 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: of a certain socioeconomic status, as pop there on Instagram, right, right, right. 199 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: But Chris and I also wanted to ask you about 200 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: money avoidance, and you mentioned in your book that a 201 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: lot of folks avoid money altogether, they ignore it, and 202 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: that that ends up creating massive problems. So why do 203 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: you think most of us avoid thinking about money and 204 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: what are the most and what are the common problems 205 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: that result from putting our heads in the sand in 206 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: regards to our money. I think most people are reluctant 207 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: to talk about money or even think about money because 208 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: they have bad experiences with money. I think people have 209 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: bad experiences growing up a lot of times, like if 210 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: your parents fought about money constantly, you might grow up 211 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: to just avoid it because money equals conflict to you. Again, 212 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: all the messaging that we're given about how money is 213 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: the root of all evil and money equals greed, and 214 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: money means you're selling out all of those things, right, 215 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: And we also have shame when it comes to money. 216 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: So like most of us have made uh somewhat egregious 217 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: financial mistake in our lives, right, and so we are 218 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: ashamed of that mistake, and everyone else see us to 219 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: know what they're doing with money except us, when in reality, 220 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: I think most people don't really know what they're doing 221 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: with money, you know, maybe not in our circles, like 222 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: in the personal finance world it's a bit different. But 223 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: like I think, for the most part, most of us 224 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: don't really have any clear direction when it comes to money. 225 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: But we feel ashamed for that, and so that keeps 226 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: us from talking about it, keeps money taboo. And what 227 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: are the consequences of keeping your head in the sand 228 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: about it? I think, Well, it's really hard to learn 229 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: about something when you don't talk about it, you know, 230 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: so it's hard to figure out what you have control 231 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: over when it comes to money. What moves you can make, 232 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: how you can negotiate, how to you know how much 233 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: you should be negotiating, how much you should be saving 234 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: for retirement. You know, it's hard to do all those 235 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: things if you just don't want to deal with money 236 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, Christen, If you see money as sort 237 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: of the enemy or as a problem and you ignore it, 238 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that it goes away, right, Like, 239 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: I think about if the check engine light like is 240 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: on in your car and you ignore it, Well, the 241 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: problem isn't going to go away now. Yeah, you don't 242 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: want to put some duct tape over that and forget 243 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: about it, right Yeah, Like, and we can pretty much guarantee, yeah, 244 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: like that it's going to get worse. You're gonna end 245 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: up with a bigger problem in the end. And Christen, 246 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: you've mentioned that if you can think about your money 247 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: as a game, how that can be helpful. Why do 248 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: you feel that gamification is good for our finances? And 249 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: how do we start to think about money in that way? Well, So, 250 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: for anyone who is not familiar with the concept of gamification, 251 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: it's sort of a business tool that companies used to 252 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: like market to you. So like a store loyalty card 253 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: is a good example of gamification. Like when you spend 254 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: money at a store, you rack up points, right, and 255 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: so you feel good like you're playing a game and 256 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: you're beating something and you want to do it more. 257 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: And so I was reading a lot about gamification. It's 258 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: a bit a bit of a trend lately, and it 259 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: was really like the psychology behind it is so fascinating 260 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: to me, and just how you can kind of manipulate 261 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: consumer behavior and writing about money for several years, I 262 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: noticed there were so many similarities in the psychology between 263 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: gamification and personal finance. Like gamification, there are several components 264 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: to it, Like you need to make the consumer feel motivated. 265 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: They have to make meaningful choices. That's how they feel empowered. 266 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: They have to feel like they're being challenged making progress 267 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: on those challenges. They need feedback to see if they're 268 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: on the right track. They need a sense of autonomy 269 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: and control and all of that. Like the more I 270 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: was reading about it's like, oh my god, this is 271 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: exactly how like you get good with money, And this 272 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: is nothing new Like Mint. If you use the budgeting 273 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: tool Mint, they've already like snapped this right, They have 274 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: like a progress bar to like for your savings goals, 275 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: where they will show you like a green bar if 276 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: you're on track with your savings goals, and that makes 277 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: you feel competent and you're getting that feedback, it makes 278 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: you feel in control. And so I thought, you know, 279 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: would be interesting to have a book that takes all 280 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: of these components of gamification and psychology like into consideration 281 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: when dealing with money. And so that's what I did 282 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: with Get Money, because the entire like, I really think 283 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: people who are good with money, they just feel in 284 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: control of their money. Like when I was in debt. 285 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: I was in student loan debt. That wasn't a great situation, 286 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: like anybody looking on the outside to be like, oh, 287 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: you're in debt, that's not a good money situation. But 288 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: I felt in charge of my money. I felt in control. 289 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: I got out of debt and I saved money, and 290 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: really just that small feeling of being in control changed 291 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: everything for me. It was just like that tiny feeling 292 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: of being empowered. Right, So that's what I aim to 293 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: do with the book. Yeah, Kristen, I really thought that 294 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: was cool how you incorporated that into your book. You know, 295 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the chapters, like it said level 296 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: up and uh and the actual different chapters, you know, 297 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: they weren't chapters, they were different levels. So you had 298 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: level one, level two, level three. I was surprised at 299 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: how it kind of pulled me into your book. It 300 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: totally took me back to the eighties playing original as 301 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sitting there playing Mamari Brothers. But that 302 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: was pretty effective in your book as well. So great job. Thanks. 303 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: And some of it is like super obvious like that, 304 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, um, and just kind of fun and silly, 305 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: but like like I went through each chapter and really 306 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: like broke down all of the components of gamification and 307 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: how they related to money and how like to talk 308 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: about it to readers in a way that makes them 309 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: feel like they're in control. So it's a lot more 310 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: subtle than that in some ways. But yeah, I don't know, 311 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: it's fun. And Kristen, you just mentioned money challenges and 312 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: so on this quest for the gamification of our finances. 313 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: What role can money challenges play? How can that spark 314 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: us to becoming better with our finances? I think money 315 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: challenges just give you that feeling of control, that feeling 316 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: of autonomy, that you have. You know, I re meet 317 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: Sethi talks about quick wins, right, it's sort of the 318 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: same thing. It just gives you that quick jolt, that quick, 319 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: instant gratification of being good with money. And we did 320 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: this at Life Actor two Cents a few years ago. 321 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: I proposed to my editor just do like a year 322 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: of different money challenges. So each month we would do 323 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: a new money challenge and like the first month was 324 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: no restaurant spending, and we got really good feedback on that. 325 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: The best feedback was people were saying, like, oh, I 326 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: saved you know, a hundred and eighteen dollars this month 327 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: and put it towards my credit card debt, and like 328 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: that felt so gratifying to me because it was like 329 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: instant results for people. And my hope is that you 330 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: take a challenge like that and it just is the 331 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: thing that gets you into getting your finances in order, 332 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So if you were reluctant 333 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: to get your money in order, you don't want to 334 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: think about money, money is, you think about it and 335 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: you just get a headache immediately. Taking a challenge can 336 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: kind of get you over that hurdle. Kristen, those are 337 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: some great thoughts, and we've got more questions for you, 338 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: including we want to discuss becoming a digital nomad. It's 339 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: so hot right now, so hot right now, people moving 340 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: to all different parts of the country or the world 341 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: working remotely, and we'll tackle that right after the break. 342 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: All right, we are back from the break here with 343 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: Christen Wong and Kristen. Before we get to the digital 344 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: nomad stuff, you wrote about the Dinero effect in your book, 345 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: and it is such an interesting story and it's so 346 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: telling about how we tend to react towards the stuff 347 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: around us, towards the things that we buy. What is 348 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: the Didero effects and how do we combat it? The 349 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: Dinnero effect is the thing that you do when you 350 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: buy something and then you have to buy all new 351 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: stuff because the thing that you bought doesn't go with 352 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: the new stuff. It's sort of named after this French philosopher, 353 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: didn't he I think his name is Deni did Erro 354 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: if I'm pronouncing that correctly. It's like an eighteenth century 355 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: French philosopher who wrote this essay called Regrets on Parting 356 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: with My Dressing Gown or something like that, where he 357 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: talks about somebody like a friend getting him like a 358 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: fancy new dressing gown. We've all been there, right, I 359 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: mean we all we all have that friend who gets 360 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: us the fancy new dressing again. So he says, you know, 361 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: it's a beautiful and dressing gown. The problem with it 362 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: is it doesn't go with all of his other crap, 363 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: Like it makes everything else he owns look and feel 364 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: terrible because he's got this new identity, this fancy dressing 365 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: gown wearer now, so then he has to buy all 366 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: new stuff. And I think in the essay he says 367 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: something like, you know, beware the trappings of fancy news. 368 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: And I'm very much uh, just summarizing what he's saying, right, 369 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: but like, be where the trappings of fancy new things 370 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: because they just lead to buying other stuff and changes 371 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: your identity. So it's just this really interesting mindset thing 372 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: that we do when we buy new things. And I 373 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: do that. I do it all the time. Like if 374 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: I buy a new rug or buy a new couch 375 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: or something for my house, suddenly that doesn't go with 376 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: all the other stuff that I own, and then I 377 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: feel like I need to buy other stuff that goes 378 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 1: with that rug. Better, you know what I mean. I 379 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: think a lot of us do this with a lot 380 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: of different things, clothing, so many different things. And so 381 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: one thing that's helped me with the ditto effect is 382 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: just really trying to when I buy, like being more 383 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: And this is where minimalism comes in, right, Like being 384 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more intentional and a little bit more 385 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: mindful with the things that I buy and thinking about 386 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: the long term consequences of whatever that is, Like, is 387 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: this going to lead to buying more things? Is this 388 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: what you know? At what point is this going to 389 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: end up in a landfill? I don't know. Things like 390 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: that that just kind of help you make more conscious 391 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: spending decisions. Yeah, we've talked in the past about secondary 392 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: costs and basically how everything that we buy ends up 393 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: costing more than we think because we we just haven't 394 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: factored in those other costs. Like let's say you buy 395 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: a new car. Typically you're thinking about that baseline payment 396 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: that you have to pay every single month. You're not 397 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: thinking about the potential increasing costs and insurance. And then 398 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: the dineral effect takes hook and you're like, man, I 399 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: need extra things to go along with my fancy new car, 400 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: and you know, what I probably need to get it 401 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: washed every week too. I think it's fascinating and I 402 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: think it's really fascinating that we have this story of 403 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: Ditto in his dressing room. It's like the most unrelatable thing, 404 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: but it's the most relatable concept. Yeah it's so old school, yeah, 405 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: so very sev very But the total cost of ownership 406 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: of a car is such a good metaphor I think 407 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: for so many different things we buy, and they're like 408 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: calculators you can use online to like look up what 409 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: the total cost of ownership of a specific type of 410 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: car you get is like considering the gas mileage, considering 411 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: the maintenance, that sort of thing. But I think it 412 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: helps to think about that in terms of everything you buy, right, Like, 413 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: what's the total cost of ownership of it? Yeah? I 414 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,479 Speaker 1: completely agree. All right, So let's move on to becoming 415 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: a digital nomad. And you mentioned that it's kind of 416 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: an obnoxious phrase, but really it's the best one we've got, 417 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: I think. So we're seeing real trends and people moving 418 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: and working remotely. We see folks moving from California to 419 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: Idaho because it's so much cheaper to live there and 420 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: they can keep their jobs at work remotely, we're seeing 421 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: younger folks traveling the globe and working from wherever they live. 422 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: So do you have tips for people that dream of 423 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: this digital nomad life? Yeah, And I should say I've 424 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: written about this a couple of times. I wrote about 425 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: it on life Hacker, and I interviewed my friend Stephanie Lee, 426 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: who was a digital nomad for a while, and we 427 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: both said, like, this phrase is so obnoxious. Let's try 428 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: to think of a new thing to call it. But 429 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,239 Speaker 1: like everything else was so much worse because we're like, 430 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: what about like a work from anywhere worker or something 431 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: like that, or it sounds it's even more pretentious. But 432 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, I think the first thing is like everybody 433 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: assumes that if you're going to become a digital nomad, 434 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: that means you have to quit your job and do 435 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: this grand thing, or they think like you have to 436 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: be on the road all of the time. And I 437 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: think the truth is like people do it in different ways. 438 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: They are varying degrees of it, and so stefinitely the 439 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: digital nohad that I interviewed actually said like she got 440 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: her boss on board with this, so she had a 441 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: full time job and she just negotiated her into working 442 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: remotely and got her boss on board, and so she 443 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: didn't have to quit her job. And I mean eventually 444 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: she did quit her job, but it was just the 445 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: first matter of asking if she could work remote a 446 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: few days a week and then amping that up a 447 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: little bit. So I think that's the first thing. I 448 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't consider myself a digital nomad, but I also travel 449 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: every month and have a home, you know, and have 450 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: a home base. That's the thing that every digital nomad 451 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: kind of needs some kind of poem base, whether it's 452 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: your parents house or you can get a po box 453 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: and they can give you like a physical address where 454 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: you get mail or something. But you know, I think 455 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: that's kind of the first thing is like asking yourself. 456 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: It's and this goes with so many things, but asking 457 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: yourself why you want to do this in the first place. 458 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: Because if it's just like long term travel, well you 459 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: can do that without making these grand gestures like quitting 460 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: your job or selling your house or leaving all your 461 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: friends and family behind. Okay, Christen, but for your friend 462 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: that you mentioned, like she was still working while she 463 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 1: was traveling, how did she set up a workflow? Because 464 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: even when you are living that nomad life, you're you know, 465 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: out there in the world, you still have to get 466 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: some of that work done. I think she said there 467 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: were some structures that she had, like general structures, right, 468 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: like she was going to work in the morning or 469 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: work out in the morning, and so she had like 470 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: these blocks of time these scheduled in her calendar. But 471 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: ultimately what she told me was, you can make all 472 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: the plans you want. It's always going to change. So 473 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: you just kind of like the beauty of being a 474 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: digital nomad is just kind of being at the whim 475 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: of your exploration or whatever. Right, So it's good to 476 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: kind of be flexible and yes, make those structures and 477 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: know that like, oh I get my best writing done 478 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: in the morning. Okay, that's great plan for that morning. 479 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: But like you still want to see the city, You 480 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: still want to see the place you're at. So I 481 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: think just having some general structures in place, but then 482 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: like also allowing yourself to be flexible to whatever happens. 483 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: So did that ever hurt her when it came to collaboration, 484 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: When it came to working with her coworkers, in particular, 485 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: if people needed to get a hold of her during 486 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: normal work hours. So how would you suggest someone wanting 487 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: to become a digital nomad, someone wanting to travel and 488 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: work remotely, be able to keep their boss happy and 489 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: also not irritate their coworkers at the same time. I 490 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: think a couple of things. First of all, communication, like 491 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: you should be communicating with the people back home that 492 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: you're working with when you're working hours are and when 493 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: you'll be available. And then obviously, if necessary, you want 494 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: to be available when they're available. But the other thing 495 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: is just making sure you have the right tools in place. 496 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: So like you have Slack, you have some kind of 497 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: project management tool like treloh which lets you communicate, you know, 498 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: with people on different projects. You have a solid WiFi 499 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: connection where every year at Like, just making sure that 500 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: those things are in place, and you have like a 501 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: you've invested in a good workplace set up is going 502 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: to make everything so much easier. So Christ and obviously 503 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of dependence right on technology when it 504 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: comes to communicating with our coworkers. When it comes to collaborating, Joel, 505 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: you know you just mentioned collaborating with your coworkers. I'm 506 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: thinking of a few industries, maybe some or creative industries 507 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: or just industries that rely on working together as teams. Christen, 508 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: do you feel that there is something lost when it 509 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: comes to communicating and collaborating, specifically creatively with others when 510 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: you're not able to meet face to face or in person, right, 511 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: of course, I think. But that kind of goes for everything, 512 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: Like everything is digital now, every everything is remote. Lad, 513 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: I've there's so many of my editors that have not 514 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: even met face to face. But you know, I mean, 515 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: of course there's going to be something lost, or I 516 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: think there's something gained when you meet with somebody and 517 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: sit down and you can see the nuance of their 518 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 1: facial expression and kind of you know, have the conversation 519 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: in a different, more fulfilling way, I guess. But that 520 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: kind of goes with everything, and I think there are 521 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: ways to work around that. And I think one of 522 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: the ways. One thing that I try to do as 523 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: a remote worker, whether i'm quote unquote digital nomatting or not, 524 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: is pick up the phone. So like if an editor 525 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: says to me, you know, an editor will give me 526 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: direction on an article I'm writing, and then she'll be like, 527 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: let me know if this is clear or if you 528 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: want to jump on the phone we can, and like 529 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: my I'm an introvert, my gut instinct is to be like, no, 530 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: if I never want to jump on the phone, like 531 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: I should want to be in my sweatpants at home, 532 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: leave me alone. But I take it. I take the 533 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: call because I know there's always going to be something 534 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: more there, right, And of course, like phase to phase 535 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: is always the best. But like anytime you can jump 536 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: on the phone or have as much human interaction as 537 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: you can, the better. Um. I think that's another thing, 538 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: is like the human interaction. I mean, aside from just 539 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: like the getting stuff done aspect of this conversation, it's 540 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: like your mental health, Like you need to see people, 541 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: and it's important to get out of the house whenever 542 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: you can and go work somewhere new. It's I'm telling 543 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: myself this more than anything, because I have a bad 544 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: habit of kind of hermitting up in my home after 545 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: a while. So, Kristen, you've written about kind of some 546 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: of the other benefits of becoming a digital nomad. What 547 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: other benefits are there for people who want to pursue 548 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: that lifestyle of working abroad. I mean, there are so 549 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: many things you can write off as a digital nomad. 550 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: But I don't want to tell anybody exactly what that 551 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: is because the I r S has pretty clear well 552 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: they're actually not very clear, but they're clear about the 553 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: things you can write off need to be Like, what 554 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: do they say ordinary and necessary? So in order to 555 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: write off expenses, the I r S says those expenses 556 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: need to be ordinary and necessary, and they define that 557 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: as an expense that is common and accepted in your 558 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: field of trade, business, or profession. And this is straight 559 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: from their website. And a necessary expense is one that's 560 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: helpful and appropriate for your business. But so that's super vague, 561 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: and so that could be anything. So I really think, 562 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: you know, you should hire attacks bro if you're gonna 563 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: do that, because they can help you find those things 564 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: that you can write off. I don't know if I 565 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: would feel comfortable telling somebody, yeah, just write everything off, right, 566 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: especially not publicly on a podcast, right right? Yeah? But 567 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: what about health insurance as a digital nomad, don't those 568 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: folks sometimes have access to better health insurance plans if 569 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: they're away from the United States for a good portion 570 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: of the year. Yeah, well, I would say probably most 571 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: people's health insurance is not going to cover them internationally, 572 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: except in a case of in case of an emergency, 573 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: but you can buy what's called expat health insurance and 574 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: it usually lasts for like a few months or just 575 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: six months. It's like five thousand dollars or something, and 576 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: it will cover you while you are overseas doing your thing. 577 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: I think there are also like international health plans you 578 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: can get, like as an extension to your current health insurance, 579 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: but it's probably a little bit more expensive, so that 580 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: ex pat health insurance is is probably your best bet. 581 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean, the first thing you want to do is 582 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: check your own, like your current explanation of benefits in 583 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: your current health insurance and see if it's covered. But 584 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: I don't think most people are accept in case of 585 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: an emergency. Kristen, that's some great advice about being a 586 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: jet setting influencer. And we're gonna have some questions for 587 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: you about being a woman in the workforce, and we're 588 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: gonna get to it was right after the break. We'll back. 589 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: We're talking with Kristin Wong and Kristen, you right for 590 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: this tiny publication called The New York Times, and you've 591 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: recently written a couple of articles about the difficulties that 592 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: women encounter in the workforce. Can you kind of give 593 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: us some insight and discuss some of the things you've covered. Yeah, 594 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: it's complicated. Um, you know, a lot of the workplace 595 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: structures that exist don't benefit women, and um, they sort 596 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: of penalize women in some ways. And negotiating is a 597 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: really good example of that. Like you've probably heard the 598 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: statistic that like, or you've heard of the study that's like, 599 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: when women negotiate speak up for themselves, they're viewed as unlikable, 600 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: and when men do it, they're viewed as like assertive 601 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: and like taking control and getting what they want. Oh yeah, 602 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: he's a leader, right, And so they call it a 603 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: social penalty in the workplace. So, I don't know, it's 604 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: it's it's just more complicated for women in the workplace. 605 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of gender bias. There was a study 606 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: I read about recently that said people like when they 607 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: think about traits, when you say, oh, what is a 608 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: competent competent person, what kind of traits are Like masculine 609 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: is a trait like the so people think they associate 610 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: masculinity with competence. So they're just all these subtle ways 611 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: that the workplace is not favorable for women. So you 612 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: see a lot more literature, I guess, coming out about 613 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: how to navigate that. And that's one of the pieces 614 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: that I wrote for The Times was sort of a 615 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: Woman's guide to negotiating in the workplace. Yeah, and oftentimes 616 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: women they get fewer pay raises than men do. Right, 617 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of studies out there regarding that. So 618 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: christ and how would you recommend that women fight these 619 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: unfair practices. Yeah, I don't know. It's um, it's hard. 620 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: There are some practical ways that I've written about. Like 621 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: there's a researcher I talked to Dr Alice Stillmacher. I 622 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: think she was the researcher behind the social Penalty study, 623 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: and she said, like, women need to be extra prepared 624 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: with documentation when they go into an interview. So print 625 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: outs of your boss, like an email of your boss, 626 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: like praising you or telling you you brought in five 627 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: thousand new customers on this project or whatever, Like anything 628 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: you can quantify with documentation, you bring that into the 629 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: negotiation so that the focus is less on you as 630 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: a person and your unquote unquote unlikable traits and more 631 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: on the results that you're bringing to the table. Right, 632 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: there's you know, practical advice like that. But I really 633 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: I think the question it's it's I'm getting a little 634 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: hesitant to answer that question more and more because I think, 635 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,719 Speaker 1: like it's just such a it's a bigger issue, So 636 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to tell. I find it difficult 637 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: to tell women like, oh, here's how to navigate these 638 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: gender biases in the workplace against you. But at the 639 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: same time, it's like you kind of have to write 640 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: like you kind of have to work around them and 641 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,239 Speaker 1: advocate for yourself and do all the things that you 642 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: can to I guess rise up in this workplace. But 643 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: I do think like a lot of it comes down 644 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: to these workplaces doing a little introspecting, and it's complicated 645 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: because a lot of it is just our individual gender 646 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: biases too. Okay, So I've got a question about salary transparency. 647 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: You mentioned that maybe if our salaries were a bit 648 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: more transparent, if we gotta knew what our co workers made, 649 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: that we might have a little bit more of an 650 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: upper hand as employees. So do you think we should 651 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: be talking with our coworkers about what we make? Is 652 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: that an important step for us to take in order 653 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: to focus on earning more. Yeah, I mean that's what 654 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: researchers and experts say is one of the solutions to 655 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: closing the pay gap is for women and I guess 656 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: other marginalized groups who have a pay gap to talk 657 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: about money more transparently. I think it's good advice for 658 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: kind of everyone. Right. There was a study that came 659 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: out in two thousand and thirteen that found that workers 660 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: are actually more productive of when salary is transparent, So 661 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: I think it's good for everyone. But I also think 662 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: it's important to know that like salary transparency or financial 663 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: transparency doesn't always mean like sharing your exact numbers. It 664 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: just means making information that could be beneficial to people 665 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: in terms of salary more more transparent, more accessible. So 666 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: there are ways you can share your salary with your 667 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: colleagues and your peers. If you're not comfortable giving exact numbers, 668 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: there are ways to do that in a roundabout way, 669 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: Like you could say, like I really think you can 670 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: command seventy five thousand for the position you're in, And 671 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: that's a way to give somebody information without giving them 672 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: your exact numbers. If that's not something you're comfortable with 673 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: and a lot of people aren't. And I understand that. 674 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,479 Speaker 1: You know, I write about salary transparency a lot. I'm 675 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: pretty transparent with my numbers, but I think some people 676 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: are still like they either they still have that money 677 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: taboo or for whatever reason, they're not comfortable sharing their 678 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: exact numbers, but they still want to like do the 679 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: right thing and like help people know what they could 680 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: be earning and talk about money more openly. And I 681 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: think there are ways to do that without sharing your 682 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: exaction numbers. So, Christen, for you specifically as someone who's 683 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: kind of like a writer for hire, You've written a 684 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: lot of words at this point, You've written a lot 685 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: of articles. How have you navigated that in kind of 686 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 1: that world where you know other writers around the internet? 687 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: So are you asking people, are you volunteering how much 688 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: you're making? How are you essentially bringing salary transparency into 689 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: your world? Yes to all of those questions. I ask 690 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: with people that I'm comfortable with, who I know will 691 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: trust me enough to share how much they're getting paid. 692 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: I share with people I trust enough how much I'm 693 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: getting paid at different places. I share openly how much 694 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: I make um like My standard rate is a dollar 695 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: a word. I make anywhere between From the past five years, 696 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: I've made anywhere between like seventy and thousand a year 697 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: with writing and other things too, like speaking. So some 698 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: of these conversations are happening openly, like I think probably 699 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: written about it on a blog or a newsletter before. 700 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: And some of these conversations are happening behind closed doors 701 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,919 Speaker 1: on Slack, just with colleagues and friends who are like, Hey, 702 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: this publication is hitting me up. How much can I 703 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: expect to get paid from them? And vice versa. If 704 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: I am writing for a place that I know somebody 705 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: has written for them before, I won't I mean, sometimes 706 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: I will straight up ask them, like how much are 707 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: they paying you? It depends on how comfortable I am 708 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: with the person, but most of the time I'll just 709 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: say like, hey, what kind of rate do you think 710 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: I can ask for with this place? And you know, 711 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: they're online tools that can help with this for writers 712 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: specific I mean everybody's heard of glass Door and pay Scale, 713 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: I think for writers specifically, there is a site called 714 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: who pays writers dot com, or you can just plug 715 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: in the name of the publication and it's self reported 716 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: rate information. So christ and you're talking about this from 717 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: a salary transparency point of view, right, You're having these 718 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: conversations with your colleagues and everyone's on the same page. 719 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: You're all working towards, you know, getting paid more making 720 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: sure that there is equivalent pay. One of the main 721 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: goals on how the Money here on the podcast is 722 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: to drop that stick about discussing money with our friends 723 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: and family specifically, so aside from coworkers, what in your 724 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: estimation can everyone do to make money less to Boo, 725 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: you should just ask all of your friends and family 726 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: exactly how much money they make. Yeah, just just alienate 727 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 1: them all at once, exactly. I think obviously talking about 728 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: money more openly and having those conversations, yes, but doing 729 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: it in a way that makes people feel comfortable, like 730 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: trying to empathize and understand where somebody might be coming from. 731 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: I think part of the reason money is so taboo 732 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: is because we're afraid of being judged. I'm still afraid 733 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: of being judged. Like when I told you about hiring 734 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: a personal stylist, immediately in my head is like a 735 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: listeners are going to judge me for that. So this 736 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: is something that affects everyone. So I think if you 737 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: can when you talk about money, like if your friend 738 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: asks you how much you're saving for retirement, or you 739 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: somehow broach that conversation organically open the doors in like 740 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: a non judgmental way, like this is what your situation 741 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: might be, Mine might be different from that. I think 742 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: doing that with your spouse or your partner is super important. 743 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: I think the main reason a lot of couples can't 744 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: get on the same page when it comes to money 745 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: a lot of times is because they feel attacked, you know, 746 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: especially when you talk to your partner spouse, it's important 747 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: to talk about money in a way that doesn't make 748 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: them feel like they're being attacked. Really, at the end 749 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: of the day, like there's there's some personal finance advice 750 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: that's like obvious, right, like that applies to everyone, Like 751 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: if you spend less than you earn, you're going to 752 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: build wealth. I mean, that's very basic, obvious advice that 753 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: applies to everyone. Other than those like personal finance basics, 754 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: most of us handle money in really different ways, so 755 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: like what works for me is not necessarily going to 756 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: work for you. So I think just keeping an open mind, 757 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: an open mind about money when you're talking about it 758 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: with people is a great way to start breaking that taboo. Well, 759 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: on the note of talking with your significant other about money, 760 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: there's a stat I read recently and it was that 761 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: Americans don't know how much their spouse makes. If we 762 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: don't even know how much our spouse is learning, that 763 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: means we probably don't know overall how much our household 764 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: income is. If we don't know that, then it's almost 765 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: an impossibility that we know how much money we're spending. 766 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: I feel like we're just setting ourselves up for money tension, 767 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: don't you agree? Yeah, totally. That stat is like so 768 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: surprising to me. I read that too, and it was like, really, 769 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: like forty three percent is just crazy, like just not 770 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: like having no idea how much your spouse makes much less, 771 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: spends much less, what bank accounts they have open, and 772 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: I've gotten I do a column called Joint Accounts for Medium, 773 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: and we get readers who will write in, and it's 774 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: surprising to me. Again, I'm trying not to be judgmental, right, 775 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: because you break the money taboo, but it's surprisingly how 776 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: much people don't talk about money with their spouse, and 777 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: you have to because money issues will manifest in other ways, 778 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: like there they'll come up later obviously knowing how much 779 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: your spouse makes, but like knowing what their future financial 780 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: goals are, what they're spending money on now, what kind 781 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: of debt they have now with their credit score looks 782 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: like now, all of those things what my friend Aaron 783 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: Lowry calls getting financially naked with your partner's spouse are 784 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: so important because they're going to prevent fights in the future. Yeah, 785 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: christ And it's so important to communicate well about money 786 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: with our significant other, with our partner. It's also important 787 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: to communicate well about our finances with our community. It's 788 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: important to have community support in all aspects of our life, 789 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: including our personal finances. So how do you recommend folks 790 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: find their money tribe, someplace that they can go where 791 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: they can learn and talk more about their personal finances. 792 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the first step is talking about 793 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: it with friends and loved ones, being okay with having 794 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: that conversation a little bit more openly, but also finding 795 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: the like financial writer or financial author, expert, guru, whoever 796 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: that speaks to you, and whether it's me or somebody 797 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: else you know, um, just finding that voice that speaks 798 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: to you most and makes you feel most empowered in 799 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: control of your money. Yeah, Chris, and I think that's great. 800 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on finding a community online where 801 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: people can help each other out when it comes to 802 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: their personal finances, Like, for instance, we've got a Facebook 803 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: group with with thousands of people that are helping each 804 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: other out every day with their money questions. It's it's 805 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: a beautiful place to be. So are there are other 806 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,919 Speaker 1: places that you think people should go where there are 807 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: are folks willing to give advice and help out. There's 808 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: there are no shortage of online community, online communities for 809 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: people who are interested in getting their finances in order. 810 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: I've heard another good one is that you need a 811 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: budget forums. People go in there and I'm not a 812 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,439 Speaker 1: part of that community, but I've just heard great things 813 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: about it. There are different financial gurus like set To 814 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: who have like these, who have meetups with their followers. 815 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: I think that's really great. I've been to one of 816 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,439 Speaker 1: his events before and it was pretty incredible how many 817 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: people were there and how how good the energy was. 818 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: So just finding some voice in the personal finance world 819 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: that speaks to you, and then finding where their community 820 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: is whether it's on line, if they have meetups. There 821 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: are so many out there. Christen. That's awesome advice. And 822 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: this has just been a fantastic conversation that we've had 823 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 1: with you today. Where can folks find more info on you? 824 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: I am on social media at the Wild Wong. You 825 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: can find me at Kristen Wong dot com, sweet and 826 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 1: we'll pop those links up on our website at how 827 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: to money dot com. Kristen, thank you so much for 828 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: joining us today. It was a really fun conversation. Thank you, 829 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Thanks Christen. All Right, Joel Man, 830 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: that was a fantastic conversation with Kristen Wong. Joel, what 831 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: was your big takeaway from our conversation with Kristen? Yeah, 832 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: that was really enjoyable. Kristen's awesome. Her husband might be 833 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: even cooler, but but we're gonna talk about that right now. 834 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: I think the big takeaway for me was the idea 835 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: of a gamification of your money. I love how challenging 836 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: yourself in that way, thinking about your money as a 837 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: game to win as opposed to this boring thing that's 838 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: holding you back. It's really all about mindset, and if 839 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: you can start to think about money in the way 840 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,919 Speaker 1: you think about beating the levels of a video game. 841 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: It can really help you as you kind of seek 842 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: to be the master of your money domain. And you 843 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: know what, a money challenge might be just the thing 844 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 1: to get you started. So yeah, that was my big 845 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: takeaway Matt. What was yours? Well, that one actually may 846 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: have also been been mine. But I totally agree with 847 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: you though, right, if we can find ways to make 848 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: our personal finance, if we can find ways to make 849 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: money more fun, then it's something that we're going to 850 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: naturally want to improve upon. But I can't choose the 851 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: same one as you, so I will go with the 852 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: Dido effect. You know, this is something we've talked about before, 853 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: but now I have an actual name for it. We've 854 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: talked about how you know, anytime something old touches something 855 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: new in comparison, you think, oh that you know, the 856 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: example Christen gave was, oh that that couch is old 857 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: and shabby now next to that nice new rug. I 858 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: think with that in mind, we need to consider our 859 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: purchases and to make sure that the things we are 860 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: buying sort of fit within our existing framework of of 861 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: how we want to live our life. Otherwise, it's gonna 862 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: be really easy for us to get carried away buying 863 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,879 Speaker 1: new stuff because man, like that old stuff, that shabby looking. 864 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: It's time for an upgrade. And I say that because 865 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: it's easy for me to go down that path. So 866 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying this almost as a personal reminder for myself. Yeah, 867 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: for sure, it takes intentionality to avoid the Diggero effect 868 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,879 Speaker 1: in our lives, right, I completely agree? All right, Matt. 869 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: And the beer that we had on the episode tonight 870 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: while we were talking with Kristen was the LUNDI I 871 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: p A by Monday Night Brewing. They're right down the 872 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,959 Speaker 1: street from us, and you provided this beer tonight, my friend, 873 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: thank you for the beer And what was your take 874 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: on it? Yeah? Man, this was a recent release of 875 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: one of our favorite local breweries here in Atlanta, Lundy. 876 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: You know what. I actually I looked it up as well, 877 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: because I was like, what does Lundy even mean? Did 878 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 1: you look it up? Nope, I have no idea. It's 879 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: French for Monday, which obviously is quite a appriate for 880 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: Monday Night brewery. That makes sense now exactly. Man. For me, 881 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: this was an I p A that was incredibly citrusy 882 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: out the Wazoo citrus. I love that. On the can 883 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: it says that it was soft, and I totally am 884 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: down with that as well. It's sort of had the 885 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: slow build to it. It's almost like a like a 886 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: nice fade in, you know, like with audio, Like you're 887 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: all about audio, right, had like that nice sort of 888 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: fade in as you're drinking it. It It didn't overwhelm your 889 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: palette like right when you drink it. It kind of 890 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: had a nice crescendo effect before it kind of hits 891 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: you with all of its juicy, citrusy goodness. But yeah, man, 892 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm all about this one. Another solid offering from the 893 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: guys over at Monday Night. What were your thoughts? Yeah. 894 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: Another word they put on the can to describe this 895 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 1: beer was elegant. Reminded me of myself in that way. 896 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: Uh truly, I would say a refined beer. It's this 897 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: I PA that you can tell has these just beautiful 898 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: subtleties going on it. It doesn't overpower you. It's not 899 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: just this overwhelming flavor punch to your mouth. But it's 900 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: one of those that you could see having in your 901 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: fridge almost all the time because it's something that has 902 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: just a nice amount of flavor, but it's not crazy intense. 903 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: So yeah, I really like this beer from Monday Night 904 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: and another great one. They just continue to make great beers, 905 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,800 Speaker 1: no wonder, they continue to expand. I think they're building 906 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: a brewery in Birmingham now, so they're getting big man. Yeah, 907 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: so if you're in Birmingham, keep your eyes peeled and 908 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: you can look for that space opening soon. All right, Matt, 909 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: that's gonna be it for this episode. We will put 910 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: show notes up for the episode on our website, how 911 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: to money dot com. We've got tons of other stuff 912 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,439 Speaker 1: there as well, so go check out our website. Yeah, 913 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: and we would love for you to subscribe to this 914 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: podcast if you haven't already wherever it is that you 915 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. And also if you don't mind, head 916 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: over to Apple Podcasts and you can leave us a 917 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: little rating and review over there. So, Joel, that's gonna 918 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: be it for this episode. Man. Until next time, Best friends, 919 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: Best Friends Out