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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is the podcast.

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Speaker 2: As just mentioned, we call it Stuff you Should Do.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, we should say to any new listeners,

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Speaker 2: we're not saying you should already know this stuff, so

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Speaker 2: don't be hostile toward us about that. We're saying we

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Speaker 2: think you should know this because it's so interesting we

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Speaker 2: want to tell you about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we could have changed the name of the show

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Speaker 1: to Things that you might find interesting, but then again

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Speaker 1: you might not as well, But that didn't have a ring.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no implied dummy in the title of our podcast.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're the dummies.

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Speaker 2: So I'll tell you somebody who wasn't a dummy as

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Speaker 2: far as it comes to being a world class liar,

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Speaker 2: maybe England's greatest liar ever. It was a spy from

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Speaker 2: the World War Two beginning early Cold War era named

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Speaker 2: Harold Kim Philby. And if that name rings a bell,

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Speaker 2: well to sit back and enjoy this episode on a

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Speaker 2: British spy. If you don't know who Kim Philby is,

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Speaker 2: sit back, and enjoy this episode on a British Spy.

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Speaker 1: Your voice is going up like you were going to

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Speaker 1: say something else. Is that it?

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to replicate it perfectly.

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Speaker 1: So big thanks to Dave who helped us with this.

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Speaker 1: But Dave also wanted us to shout out, and we

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Speaker 1: want to shout out. A book by Ben McIntyre, A

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Speaker 1: Spy among Friends Colon Kim Philby and The Great Betrayal,

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Speaker 1: and also a mini series that I have not watched

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Speaker 1: that I think I probably will now as six parter

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Speaker 1: on Amazon MGM called A Spy among Friends from twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, starring the winsome guy Pierce Oh Yeah, as

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Speaker 1: Kim Philby or Harold Adrian Russell Philby as He was

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Speaker 1: born in India in nineteen twelve because his dad was

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Speaker 1: a colonialist. I can never say that word, right.

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Speaker 2: I think he nailed it, Philby Kim. He was nicknamed

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Speaker 2: Kim because there was a Rudyard Kipling's story, a book

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Speaker 2: I think about a street urchin raised on the streets

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Speaker 2: of India who becomes a spy.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? It really is.

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Speaker 1: Because he got this nickname as a kid, like before

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Speaker 1: he knew he was going to be a spy.

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Speaker 2: Right, He wasn't out in there like we're I call

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Speaker 2: you Kim from now on. He Yeah, he grew up

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Speaker 2: to be a spy. And he was nicknamed after a

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Speaker 2: boy who grew up to be a spy, so it

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Speaker 2: is pretty interesting. But everyone called him Kim Philby. And

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Speaker 2: he was born in India nineteen twelve. His dad was

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Speaker 2: a colonialist, like you said, his sympathies actually lay with India.

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Speaker 2: He eventually quit the service and went to become a

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Speaker 2: I think an advisor to the King of Saudi Arabia. Eventually,

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Speaker 2: oh wow.

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Speaker 1: Well, at any rate, he was born to a well

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Speaker 1: old family. His parents were gone a lot. He was

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Speaker 1: raised by his Indian nanny. He went to Cambridge, so

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Speaker 1: he was sort of on that track of not you know,

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Speaker 1: royalty or anything, but probably aristocracy, you could say. And

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Speaker 1: when he went to Cambridge it was the early nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: pretty rocky time. The Great Depression was happening, and that's

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Speaker 1: when the fascists, especially in Germany and Italy, saw their

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Speaker 1: sort of opportunity when people were wrecked by poverty, to

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Speaker 1: step in and start controlling things.

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Speaker 2: Right. So communism became a thing among young Cambridge and

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Speaker 2: intellectuals at the time, and communism was viewed as the

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Speaker 2: antidote to fascism, which was on the rise at the

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Speaker 2: time in the late thirties. And the reason I was, like, why,

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Speaker 2: I don't understand that, because my geopolitics is seen through

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Speaker 2: the view of an eighties American kid who lived through

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Speaker 2: the end of the Cold War. Yeah, but communist is

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Speaker 2: all about class and social equality. One of the defining

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Speaker 2: characteristics of fascism is a rigid hierarchy. So of course

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Speaker 2: the aristocracy of Great Britain would be fully on board

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Speaker 2: with a kind of ideology that said, yes, you're at

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Speaker 2: the top, you deserve to be at the top, you

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Speaker 2: should stay at the top. And so they aristocracy at

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Speaker 2: the time definitely had sympathies with the Nazis because of

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Speaker 2: their fascist leanings, and that did not sit well with

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Speaker 2: these young Cambridge intellectuals who had bought fully into communism

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Speaker 2: as the ideology to spread throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was especially a way for you know,

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Speaker 1: kids to rebel against what their parents loved, which is

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Speaker 1: a classic thing that kids and teenagers and young adults do.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, these like you said, these young

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Speaker 1: Cambridge elites were like, hey, communism is where it's at.

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Speaker 1: Forget this. I was about to say patriarchy, but it

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Speaker 1: was really you know, everybody, the upper class altogether. And

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Speaker 1: you know, as far as Philby is concerned, he didn't.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't out there calling for a revolution or anything

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Speaker 1: and let's go burn it down. He apparently never officially

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Speaker 1: joined the Communist Party, but he was. He was a

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Speaker 1: Communist through and through, like up until the very end.

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Speaker 1: He was very committed to it, something he did not

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Speaker 1: grow out of like his parents. I probably hoped he would.

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Speaker 2: I mean, out of all of the Soviet spies in

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Speaker 2: the UK at the time, he was probably the most

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Speaker 2: committed Communists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you'll see, there were plenty of chances

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Speaker 1: to go a different way, and he never did.

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Speaker 2: No for sure. So he was at Cambridge and he

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Speaker 2: met with a professor. And with this professor he said, hey,

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Speaker 2: I really want to help communism, you know, spread throughout

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Speaker 2: the world. What can I do? What as a young

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Speaker 2: aristocratic Cambridge grad due to help communism? And this professor said,

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Speaker 2: I so in Vienna right now, they're they're battling the

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Speaker 2: commun and his comrades are battling a dictator named Engelbert Dolphus,

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Speaker 2: and Dolphus is a fascist dictator, and you can go

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Speaker 2: to Austria and help. I don't know how, but just

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Speaker 2: go to Austria and figure it out. And he did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, oh, I was thinking a letter

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Speaker 1: campaign or something, but but sure, I'll go to Austria

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Speaker 1: and find a ruthless dictator. While he was there, he

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Speaker 1: went to be in a lovely town, by the way,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorites in Europe. He fell in love

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Speaker 1: with a woman named Alice Lizzie Coleman, who was another

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Speaker 1: young communist. They became a co revolutionaries and they you know,

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Speaker 1: hooked up also in you know, in a more romantic way,

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Speaker 1: hugging and kissing that kind of thing. Okay, and Dolphus,

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Speaker 1: the fascist dictator, said all right, we got to get

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Speaker 1: rid of these communists and we will do so by

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Speaker 1: whatever means we need to. And that Lizzy woman was

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Speaker 1: on that list. She was pretty well known or you know,

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Speaker 1: well known as far as the insider fascist dictators go.

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Speaker 1: And they said, all right, we got to get out

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Speaker 1: of here. They realized the writing was on the wall,

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Speaker 1: so they got married, they fled to England and in

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Speaker 1: London he finally Kim Philby got in touch with a

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Speaker 1: real Soviet operative at a secret meeting in Regent Park

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Speaker 1: that was arranged by one of Litzi's communist friends, and

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Speaker 1: it was game time. It was on from that point forward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So this real life communist was a Czech academic

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Speaker 2: who was undercover for the Soviets as basically a spymaster.

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Speaker 2: His name was Arnold Deutsch, or at least that's what

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Speaker 2: he told people. I guess it's where Germany comes up

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Speaker 2: in this one. His code name and what he used

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Speaker 2: to communicate with people was auto Otto. Apparently it was

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Speaker 2: huge insecurity. He would make Philby take like three taxis

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Speaker 2: at least before they would meet. And this guy was like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I can do something with you. You're a like an

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Speaker 2: aristocratic You're a member of the upper crust of British society,

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Speaker 2: and right now, the upper crust of British society is

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Speaker 2: if you're from them, you have total trust across the board.

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Speaker 2: Let's take advantage of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was pretty ideal for that position. But he

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Speaker 1: was like, how good of an actor are you though?

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Speaker 1: Because that's what really matters if you're going to get

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Speaker 1: into this. And Philby said, well, let's just say this

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Speaker 1: one day, Guy Pierce is going to play me in

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Speaker 1: a streaming series. And he was like, what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: That makes no sense at all. He said, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: a pretty good actor, and a good actor will eventually

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Speaker 1: play me. He's really got to fall into this part,

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Speaker 1: you know, in such a perfect way that obviously no

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Speaker 1: one's going to find out. That's the ultimate goal of

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Speaker 1: being a mole is to be a great liar, and

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Speaker 1: he was really really good at it. One of the

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Speaker 1: things he had to do, though, was find a job

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Speaker 1: to you know, as cover. And he's like, the perfect

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Speaker 1: job for this would be a journalist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But one other thing he had to do, too

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Speaker 2: was he had to he had to become, at least outwardly,

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Speaker 2: what he despised the most, which was the quintessential English aristocrat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right wing yep, right wing.

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Speaker 2: Fascist sympathies that aren't particularly well hidden, super conservative, very

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Speaker 2: loyal to the British crown. Yeah, essentially everything you think

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Speaker 2: of when you think of like a guy wearing a

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Speaker 2: bowler hat in the forties in Great Britain carrying an

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Speaker 2: umbrella on his forearm, right, Like, he did not like

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Speaker 2: these people, and yet he now entered their world where

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Speaker 2: he would stay essentially as a mole for years to come.

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Speaker 2: And I mean it's I don't really sympathize with him

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Speaker 2: because of who he was and what a trader he was. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I do sympathize with him in the idea of

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Speaker 2: having to live your life like that around people you

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Speaker 2: despise and have to pretend like you like them for

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Speaker 2: years on end, or you are one of them for

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Speaker 2: years on end. That had to be that had to

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Speaker 2: definitely be rough on the old soul, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, here's the thing I never thought about.

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Speaker 1: Seen so many stories on this kind of thing. We've

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Speaker 1: read so many books and seen so many movies about

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Speaker 1: double agents and people you know, lying for cover. But

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Speaker 1: I always think about, like, oh, yeah, to live that

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Speaker 1: lie and to keep that up, that must be hard.

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Speaker 1: Until we did this episode, I never thought about how

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Speaker 1: hard that would be to just like be sleeping with

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Speaker 1: the enemy essentially full time, and like all your friends,

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Speaker 1: all your social circle, everything that comes out of your mouth,

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Speaker 1: like has to be the thing that you hate the most.

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Speaker 1: Right It's incredible. I never considered how hard that would be.

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Speaker 2: Right, So you said that he was told he needed

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Speaker 2: a job, Yes, and he became a journalist.

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Speaker 1: Jo, you are in al That's m right.

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Speaker 2: That was his job. And the reason why it was

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Speaker 2: such a great profession for him is that you can

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Speaker 2: go all over the world as a journalist and you're

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Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I'm covering the running of the bowl,

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Speaker 2: so here i am. Or this Olympics is amazing, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Octoberfest, let's do it right.

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Speaker 2: Nobody's gonna question why you're in this country because you're

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Speaker 2: covering something. That's one thing. Another thing, too, is if

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Speaker 2: you are covering like elite people, you're kind of considered

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Speaker 2: a member of the club just in and of itself. Right,

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Speaker 2: So people let their guard down around you because you're

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Speaker 2: an aristocrat, you're one of them. They know you won't

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Speaker 2: say the things that they are saying off the record.

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Speaker 1: You won't print those in the paper, but you could

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Speaker 1: sell them to the Soviets.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So he gathered all sorts of off

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Speaker 2: the record secrets and all this stuff from interviewing people

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Speaker 2: at the highest echelons of power that they were sharing

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Speaker 2: with him because he was one of them. He was

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Speaker 2: just turning right around and giving it to the Soviets,

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Speaker 2: like you said, So his career as a journalist to

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Speaker 2: start out was it was a great choice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just further reinforced the more he does

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Speaker 1: it because he's not printing that stuff. So they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Philby can really be trusted because it's taking off the

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Speaker 1: record stuff and he's not printing it. This guy's great,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So to sort of bulk up his cover,

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Speaker 1: he got this job at the Anglo German Trade Gazette,

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Speaker 1: which was a British newspaper, but it was at least

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Speaker 1: in part financed by the Nazis and it was about

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Speaker 1: just trying to get trade relations between Britain and Journey.

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Speaker 1: It was like a friendly newspaper between them. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: he had to you know, play this role of sort

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Speaker 1: of quasi Nazi sympathizer and lose all of his friends

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Speaker 1: in his life because all of his friends were these

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of fellow ideologically aligned people, fellow leftists.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not all of them communists, but he wasn't hanging

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Speaker 1: out with these people until he started doing this this

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Speaker 1: right wing sort of Nazi sympathizing group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he essentially pulled a Christopher Hitchins and just completely

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Speaker 2: transformed from one way to the other. So at the

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Speaker 2: time civil war broke out, this is in the thirties

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Speaker 2: as well in Spain. Have you ever seen the orphanage? Yes,

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Speaker 2: very creepy in the time of the Spanish Civil War.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. On one hand you had the Fascists

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Speaker 2: led by Francisco Franco and they were fighting the Communists

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Speaker 2: led by Franco Francisco, and he was supposed to be

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Speaker 2: a war reporter for the London Times, and I mean

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Speaker 2: he was writing for the Times, but really what he

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Speaker 2: was doing was working his way into the good graces

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Speaker 2: of the fascists so he could spy on them for

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Speaker 2: the Soviets, who would then in turn tell what agents

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Speaker 2: to do what to undermine the Fascist side of the

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Speaker 2: civil war.

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Speaker 1: Right, do you think there was ever any confusion about

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Speaker 1: those two leaders?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I made that.

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Speaker 1: I thought you did very subtle though, thank you. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to sniff you off the case, but in

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Speaker 1: a way that made me look as less least dumb

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Speaker 1: as possible.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's why you're the best all around boy.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, stop it, so we should mention, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of neither here nor there. But he and Lizzy

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Speaker 1: had been divorced by this time. He was married four

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Speaker 1: times total, but he would do things like strike up

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Speaker 1: affairs in order to get into the places he needed

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Speaker 1: to be. In this case, he had an affair with

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Speaker 1: an older woman Franco's inner circle. But while he was there,

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Speaker 1: his car was bombed essentially not a car bombing, but

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Speaker 1: just hit by a shelling during a bombing raid, and

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Speaker 1: all three passengers in the car that were not named

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Speaker 1: Kim Philby died and he just had minor injuries. So

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Speaker 1: he was actually awarded the Red Cross of Military Merit

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Speaker 1: from Franco himself gave him this award.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I saw real quick is that Kim

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Speaker 2: Philby received the highest military honor possible from the Spanish,

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Speaker 2: the Soviets, and the English, all while here was a

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Speaker 2: spy for the USSR.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's crazy.

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Speaker 2: So he gained so much access, like he was friendly

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Speaker 2: with the highest levels of the fascist side of the

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Speaker 2: Spanish government that the Soviets were like, we could just

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Speaker 2: have him off Franco at this point, and they decided like,

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Speaker 2: now we're just going to use up a valuable asset,

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Speaker 2: and frankly, I'm not sure that that guy could do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so they didn't have him kill Franco, but he really

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Speaker 2: proved his worth by infiltrating the fascists in the Spanish

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Speaker 2: Civil War. And by this time, well should we take

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Speaker 2: a break and then come back and talk about his

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Speaker 2: next round of stuff? We got a break, Okay, Well

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Speaker 2: we'll be right back to talk about his next round

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Speaker 2: of stuff. So, Chuck I was saying that Philby proved

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Speaker 2: himself a very loyal communist spy and an effective one too.

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Speaker 2: So Auto is like, hey, man, you got any friends,

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Speaker 2: and Philby says, yes, yes I do. As a matter

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Speaker 2: of fact, I have two very close friends from my

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Speaker 2: Cambridge days who I think would fit the bill perfectly.

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Speaker 2: One of them was named Donald McClain. The other was

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Speaker 2: Guy Burgess Burgess. I'm not sure which way he said it.

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Speaker 2: I also saw a lot of conflicting information that Guy

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Speaker 2: Burgess recruited Philby, and YadA ya YadA, But I think

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Speaker 2: that the way that we've said it is correct.

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Speaker 1: I think so so he how he gets Don McLain

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Speaker 1: not American pie Don McLain. He gets Donald McLain on

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Speaker 1: the on the dole is he goes to dinner and

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Speaker 1: he sort of hints around, you know, like hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: what do you what do you think? And McLain was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm all in, buddy this, I've been waiting on this.

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Speaker 1: So he he had to do the same thing Philby did, was,

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Speaker 1: you know, like leave all his sort of leftist friends

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Speaker 1: behind publicly come out in favor of fascism. And his

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Speaker 1: other buddy, Guy Burgess, saw this happening and was like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: what's going on here, dude? This is really fishy. I

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Speaker 1: want in on this, Like I see what's happening here.

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Speaker 1: And Burgess was not. I think McLain was a pretty

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Speaker 1: decent fit for a spy, but Burgess was very loud,

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Speaker 1: apparently a pretty obnoxious guy, and he was a barely

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Speaker 1: closeted gay man at a time where homosexuality was illegal.

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Speaker 1: It was a crime in England. All that to say

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Speaker 1: he was not a real sort of low key, under

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Speaker 1: the radar, you'll be a good spy kind of guy.

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Speaker 1: But the Soviets are like he's fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy, Like he was a loose cannon if

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Speaker 2: there ever was one, but they still recruited him anyway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they became known as the Cambridge three. I

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Speaker 1: think eventually there would be a Cambridge five in total though, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were two others that were kind of brought on,

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Speaker 2: one of which was this lone wolf who was kind

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Speaker 2: of acting independently. But what they had in common is

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Speaker 2: they'd all five gone to Cambridge or instructed at Cambridge.

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Speaker 1: Right, and ended up being Soviet spies.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that part two. Yeah, So when World War

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Speaker 2: two broke out, the Soviets were like, oh, this is great.

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Speaker 2: We're allied with England, you know, nominally, and we've got

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Speaker 2: this guy on the inside. Let's have him join military intelligence.

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Speaker 2: And just like everything else, military intelligence was run by

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Speaker 2: the upper crust, the aristocracy of Great Britain at the time.

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Speaker 2: And so just like he went to that lefty professor

335
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Speaker 2: at Cambridge and said what can I do to help

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Speaker 2: the Communist cause, this spy version of Kim Philby went

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Speaker 2: to the British aristocracy and said what can I do

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Speaker 2: to help the Crown? I would really love to get

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Speaker 2: into intelligence. They're like, well, come aboard to I six.

340
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Speaker 2: We don't need to vet you. We'll look at your

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Speaker 2: background and see if there's anything that pops up. Nothing

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00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,159
Speaker 2: did great, come aboard, here's every secret that we have

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Speaker 2: in the entire nation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like later on they literally asked, like about the vetting,

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Speaker 1: and like how could this get past you? And they're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he came to the right family and we knew the

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Speaker 1: same people basically, Yeah, and this is how it was

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Speaker 1: back then. By the way, look for a little preview.

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Speaker 1: We got an episode on I six coming out at

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Speaker 1: some point. Nice looking forward to that. But he's all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden working for six is in the perfect

352
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Speaker 1: position to be a double agent because of where he worked,

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Speaker 1: but also because he was I mean, this is why

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Speaker 1: they get Guy Peers to play this guy. He was

355
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Speaker 1: really really charming guy apparently just very smart, very quick witted.

356
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Speaker 1: Apparently he would just make you feel like you're the

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Speaker 1: only person in the room. People really really loved him

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Speaker 1: and thereby trusted him very quickly. And a legendary drinker.

359
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 1: He could drink anyone under the table. And if you're

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Speaker 1: in a cocktail party and you get people a little

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Speaker 1: tipsy on whiskey, on that fine Scotch or British whiskey.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna start spilling some secrets, and he's like Karen

363
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Speaker 1: Allen in the First Raiders. You know, she could drink

364
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Speaker 1: that guy under the table. So don't get into a

365
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Speaker 1: drinking contest with Kim Philby or Karen Allen.

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Speaker 2: No. I think that Dave put it best though, when

367
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 2: he really brought it home for me, at least to

368
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 2: describe how charming this guy was. He said, Dave compared

369
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Speaker 2: him to peak Hugh Grant. I almost web my pants

370
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Speaker 2: when I read that. I was like, God, that's charming.

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Speaker 2: That's how disarmed I was. I almost just peeded.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen heretic yet. It looks good, though, I heard.

373
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Speaker 1: It's pretty good.

374
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Speaker 2: Oh have you seen talk to me?

375
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Speaker 1: What's that?

376
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 2: It's another A twenty four horror movie? Hmmm?

377
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 1: Maybe what's it about?

378
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to give it away. It's about where

379
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: you can you can hold this this mummified hand and

380
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 2: speak to the spirit world. You've not seen it. It's Australian.

381
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Speaker 1: I have not seen that.

382
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Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good.

383
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Speaker 1: I remember that.

384
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Speaker 2: You're going to love it.

385
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,879
Speaker 1: Do you've become quite a horror movie guy over the

386
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Speaker 1: past years.

387
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

388
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: No, I mean you like all kinds of stuff, right,

389
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 1: does you? Is you mean into these scary movies?

390
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 2: Oh no, she'll she'll hang out on the couch with

391
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Speaker 2: me and watch them. But she's not. She doesn't watch them,

392
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Speaker 2: although I think she would even like talk to me.

393
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Speaker 2: It's just so well done and there's only a few

394
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Speaker 2: parts that are like scary scary. Yeah, it's just a

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Speaker 2: really well thought out horror movie. It's really cool. It's good.

396
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Speaker 1: Well, and you're a You got an A twenty four

397
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: tattoo on your lower back, so I know you're an adherent.

398
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. They really are great.

399
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Speaker 1: All right, where were we? We were at Hugh Grant

400
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: and we were talking about the drinking. All right, I

401
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 1: guess let's talk about what was going on then with

402
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: the Cambridge Three. This is a very successful well, all

403
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: the Soviet spies combined were really successful, including the Cambridge Three.

404
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 1: They over the course of their work, they sent the

405
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: Soviets more than ten thousand documents during World War two.

406
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Speaker 2: Just World War two.

407
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and like the D Day invasion, advance notice

408
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: stuff about the Manhattan Project, like some really big fish.

409
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: They were getting fed this information and sometimes this would

410
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, this would lead to people dying because of

411
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Speaker 1: information shared by Philby and others.

412
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Kim Philby. He wrote a memoir as We'll

413
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 2: see you later on, but he showed zero remorse essentially

414
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 2: for any of the lives that he that he cost essentially.

415
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: One of the really good examples of this is some

416
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Speaker 2: members of the Catholic resistance in Germany who were fighting

417
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Speaker 2: the Nazis during World War Two. They approached the British

418
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Speaker 2: Intelligence we should say six. I don't know if we said,

419
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Speaker 2: that's the British equivalent of the CIA and America.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is it military based? Because you said military intelligence.

421
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: I thought they were just like the CIA. Yeah.

422
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 2: I don't know if their military intelligence or not.

423
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Speaker 1: I guess we'll find out when we do our am

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Speaker 1: I six episode.

425
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Speaker 2: Exactly great point. But they came to MI I six,

426
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: Some of these resistance leaders came to I six and

427
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: they said, hey, we want to make friends with you

428
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Speaker 2: because we think the Allies are going to win. We're

429
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: fighting to make sure the Allies win, and afterward we

430
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: want to build a Christian democratic Germany that's going to

431
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 2: be super friendly with the West. So let's work together

432
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 2: after the war. Okay. See TATA for now and Philby,

433
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Speaker 2: as a member of I six, found out about this,

434
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: told the Soviets and basically the names and addresses of

435
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 2: these people, and the Soviets went and killed them all

436
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: because the Soviets wanted Germany to be Communists afterward, not

437
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: open and democratic and Christian. So after the war, when

438
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: I six went looking for these Catholic resistance leaders to

439
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: help rebuild Germany, they were gone. They'd all been killed

440
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: during the war thanks to Kim Philby.

441
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's just one example of many where lives

442
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: were lost due to, you know, his intelligence gathering. After

443
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: World War Two, this is when obviously the Americans and

444
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: the Brits sort of turned toward the Soviet Union and

445
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: the threat of Communism as the main enemy, and you know,

446
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 1: kind of pre Cold War stuff. And you would think

447
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: that this would be a tough thing all of a sudden,

448
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: because Philby is really the enemy. But he was so

449
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,479
Speaker 1: good at what he did. It was he just had

450
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,239
Speaker 1: an inside position, so it was not easier, but all

451
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: of a sudden he was like he was really in

452
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: the mix.

453
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was so good at lying. He was

454
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: so good at playing this part sleeping with the enemy,

455
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: like you said year after year after year that even

456
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: when the Soviets were the enemy, now like he just

457
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: he just coasted right through it like it was nothing,

458
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: like there had been no change whatsoever for him. So

459
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: he actually had a stroke of genius in nineteen forty four.

460
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: He said, Hey, we really need to start worrying about

461
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: these Soviets. I'm worried that there's Soviet spies and six

462
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: and I think we need to create a counterintelligence section

463
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 2: for six dedicated to rooting out Soviet spies. Oh, man,

464
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: do you know the wavos? It takes I know, man

465
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: to suggest something like that when you're a Soviet spy,

466
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it really just shows Yeah,

467
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: that was his mo. He would be like, you can't

468
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: possibly suspect me because I'm the one suggesting this. That's

469
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 2: what he did. And they were like, great, idea, let's

470
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: get somebody not you to do this, and they hired

471
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: a guy named Felix Cowgil.

472
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, get that old boy Cowgill on it. And

473
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: Philby was like, Oh, that didn't go down like I

474
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: wanted because I really need to head up this organization

475
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: and not have this guy Cowgil. All of a sudden

476
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: sniffing down my neck. So he starts a whisper campaign

477
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: to sort of get Cowgill out of there. That's exactly

478
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: what happened. And within a few months Philby is standing there,

479
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: you know, at the ready to take over, a Soviet

480
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: spy all of a sudden, in charge of the Soviet

481
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: counterintelligence for six. So McIntyre in his book, this is

482
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: a pretty fun quote. He said the Fox was not

483
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: merely guarding the hen house, but building it, running it,

484
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: assessing its strengths and frailties, and planning its future construction.

485
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 2: He sounded like Hankazaria and mystery men.

486
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: This spins great. I'll take that.

487
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: I think that's a great quote too. He definitely yelds it.

488
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: So this is what But that's the reality now, Like

489
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: Kim Philby is the in charge of rooting out Soviet spies,

490
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: yet he's a Soviet spy for six and yeah, so

491
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: things are going along smoothly for I don't know, a

492
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: couple of months, and then there's this really big deal

493
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 2: that happens. There's a defector who worked at the Soviet

494
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 2: embassy in Istanbul. His name was Konstantin Volkov, and Volkov

495
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 2: went to the British Embassy in Istambul. He said, hey, neighbor,

496
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: get this. I know the names of dozens of Soviet

497
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: spies embedded in British intelligence all throughout, and I will

498
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: tell you their names if you give me fifty thousand

499
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: dollars and they're like fifty thousand dollars in twenty twenty

500
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: five money. He goes, no, no, no, fifty thousand dollars in

501
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 2: nineteen forty four money. That's a lot more. If you

502
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: give me that and you help me and my wife

503
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: defect to the West, I'll tell you all these people's names.

504
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: And here's a little here's a little bit of sugar

505
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: on top to get you interested. One of these spies

506
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: is the head of a section of the British counter

507
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: Espionage Service in London.

508
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: They said, oh boy, that's quite a Sweetenah. So Philby

509
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: hears about this and instead of like, you know, freaking out,

510
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: he was like, no, no, no, I've got this. He said,

511
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 1: you know what this this? If it's that inside, we

512
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: need to get an interview with this guy. Somebody needs

513
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: to go interrogate Bolkov and how about I do that?

514
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: And they're like cow only because no, exactly, and he said,

515
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, I should do this, and they, you know,

516
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: they trusted him so much at this point, they're like, yeah, sure,

517
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: like who better to send? Right, He goes to Istanbul

518
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: to meet with Volkov, but he never showed up because

519
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: the Russians took care of that, right.

520
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he told the KGB that there was this Volkov

521
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: defector in Istanbul and they needed to take care of him.

522
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: So he looks totally innocent and legit like he's the

523
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: head of I six Soviet counter espionage department, so it

524
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: makes sense that he would go interview him one but

525
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: it also just makes him look so innocent. Why would

526
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: you go all the way over there to meet with

527
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: somebody who knows not going to be there. Of course

528
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: he's innocent. He went to the Stambul to meet the guy.

529
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: The guy just disappeared, that's all. And it was just

530
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: another master stroke like that. I'm just I mean, I

531
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: don't take my hat off the liars very often, but

532
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: rats guy, definitely, he deserves a hat tip for coming

533
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: up with this this stuff.

534
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: I mean, he was always one step ahead of things,

535
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: so much so that you know, the Soviets eventually thought

536
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: that he might be like a triple agent or double

537
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: crossing them or something, because you know, they were like,

538
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: how's this guy moved up so quickly and all of

539
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: a sudden he's running the Department six. That's to like,

540
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: it's pretty genius, comrade, but it's all very suspicious to them,

541
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: and they were a pretty paranoid bunch at that point.

542
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: They probably still are, and they always wondered what the

543
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: deal was, but like his information always checked out, it

544
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: was always golden, so they really had no choice but

545
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: to go along with things. He would eventually go to America.

546
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: He was assigned I six chief and DC. So if

547
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: he was like a charming guy in England with that

548
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: accent and his drinking ability, he was like, just multiply

549
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: that times one hundred in the United States as far

550
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: as the charm factor.

551
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: Goes, right exactly. So yet again he's done some amazing maneuvering.

552
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: He's in DC's hanging out with the most connected embedded

553
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: members of the CIA, the FBI diplomatic circuit from the

554
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: State Department, Like everybody who's anyone in DC this guy's

555
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: partying with. And you said that he was well known

556
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: as it's just like a he had a hollow leg.

557
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: He was just such an amazing drinker. He could drink

558
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: as well as anybody, like maryon from Where's the Lost

559
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: Arc You said, Apparently he could get so drunk that

560
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: he couldn't engage in a conversation, but he was always

561
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: listening and he could still type up a pretty great

562
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: report the next day for his handlers based on the

563
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: stuff he'd overheard while he was blackout drunk. Essentially, so

564
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: this really jibed with America. Like the Americans at the time,

565
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: they loved drinking like that, just like the Bricks, maybe

566
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: even more so. So he would just drink with everybody. Okay,

567
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: but close to tide at least you can agree. So

568
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: he would just drink with everybody. That's how he became

569
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 2: a trusted confidant. Apparently, also he was a genuine friend,

570
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: Like he met some people along the way that he

571
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: really became friends with, and I think later on he

572
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: said that he missed some of them. But that combination

573
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: of being one of them in the intelligence community, being

574
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: able to drink as well as anybody so he can

575
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: have fun at cocktail parts, being charming, and then also

576
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: being in a legit friend, he really got his hooks

577
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: into people over in the US as well.

578
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. One of the guys he really butted

579
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: up with. His name was James Angleton. He was a

580
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: counterintelligence chief of the CIA for two decades, so good

581
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: guy to know. They had already met apparently from when

582
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: they were younger in England, so they were you know,

583
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: hooked up again and became really really close, and so

584
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: he thinks they're like really good friends. So he's just

585
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: spelling everything to Philby because they're buddies, right. One example

586
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: is he told Philby about a military operation called Operation Valuable,

587
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: where the Brits and the Americans were going to overthrow

588
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: the dictator of Albania to keep them from joining the

589
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: Soviet block, and they were training exiles to sort of

590
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: mount this fight, you know, against against their dictator. And

591
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 1: Philby passes this along to Moscow, and before you know it,

592
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: these Albanian authorities are like ready and waiting when this

593
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: uprising happens and just slaughtered all these foreign trained exiles

594
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and basically quashed everything. The revolution was no more.

595
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: Right, and so there's a whole bunch of heads also

596
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,959
Speaker 2: on Philby as well from that.

597
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should probably take another break.

598
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, let's take a break, all right.

599
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: We'll come back and talk about well Kim Philby right

600
00:32:44,560 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: after this. All right, so we're back here for act three.

601
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: It is now nineteen forty six, and we're going to

602
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about something called the Venona decryption.

603
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: That was you know, everyone had their secret codes that

604
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: they used to encrypt things in those days, and they

605
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: still do. But nineteen forty six, American cryptologists cracked that

606
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: code that the Soviets were using, the Venona decryption, and

607
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: they said, hey, let's just not use this going forward.

608
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: Let's go back and dig through all the stuff for

609
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: World War Two and see if we can get anything

610
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: out of that. And in nineteen fifty they decoded a

611
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: message from the past that identified a Soviet spy. No,

612
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: not Yuri, It's not wild. I was about to ruin

613
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: no Way out a movie that came out like thirty

614
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: something years ago, but I'm not going to do that.

615
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: I'll just say Uri because it's a really good movie

616
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 1: and you should see it if you haven't. But they

617
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: identified as Soviet spy named Homer who worked at the

618
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: British Embassy in DC in nineteen forty four, and Philby

619
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: was like, oh man, I'm reading this thing. Homer's McLean.

620
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: It's my friend, right and if they get him, then

621
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: my cover's blown. And you know, right now he's in

622
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: a good spot because everyone thinks he's like me, just

623
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: a straight up Cambridge boy who's doing God's work for

624
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: the crown. But more evidence started coming out, and another

625
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: decoded message came out saying that Homer's wife was pregnant

626
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: and staying with her mother in New York. And he

627
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: was like, it's really obvious it's you now, So I

628
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: gotta kick this thing into action.

629
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: Yes, so I guess as an example of what kind

630
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: of friend he was, he took it upon himself to

631
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: get in touch with the KGB and be like, McLean's blown.

632
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 2: He needs to get out of here. But just McLean,

633
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: Because if just McLean had to flee and it seemed

634
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: like it was just McLean who was the spy, he

635
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: could weather that pretty well. He could be like, I

636
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: can't believe this. I was as duped as you were.

637
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: If his other friend, the other member of the Cambridge three,

638
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: guy Burgess, also fled, it would be really hard for

639
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: Kim Philby to be like, oh my gosh, I can't

640
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: believe my two best friends or Soviet spies, but not me.

641
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: So he told Guy Burgess, like, McLean's leaving, you cannot leave.

642
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: You have to stay here. We're going to ride this

643
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: out together. Just we'll be okay. And Guy Burges said, yes, absolutely,

644
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: and he dipped with McLean two, leaving Kim Philby to

645
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 2: hold the bag.

646
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was holding the bag because he didn't

647
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: know this was coming. Moscow didn't say that was going

648
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: to happen, so word gets out. It's pretty clear that

649
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: there's a third man que the zither and that had,

650
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: you know, said hey, Moscow, here's what's going on. So

651
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: the writing's on the wall. He knows he's about to

652
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: be found out, even though he had all this protection

653
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: as the Cambridge boy, these other two guys being Cambridge

654
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: gentleman being moles and just sort of disappearing. You know,

655
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: it could be anyone. So he knew that the writing

656
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: was on the wall. He's everyone's starting to remember, like,

657
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: wait a minute, all three guys were super leftists, like

658
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: communists in college, and they really turned, they really changed

659
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: their mind on how they felt about things ideologically really quickly.

660
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 1: And then there's also the Volkoff Affair and Operation Valuable

661
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 1: and like all the things that Philby's assigned to are

662
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: going tits up.

663
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well put he he could have fled too. He

664
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: didn't though, He's like, I think the best thing I

665
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: can do is stay here, and just by having the

666
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: guts to stay here, it'll make me look all the

667
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 2: more innocent, like it will back up my claim right,

668
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: like what person in his right mind would be a

669
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: Soviet spy? And when he's basically outed, stick around to

670
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: say no, I'm not a spy. And that's exactly what

671
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 2: he did. And am I sick at the end where

672
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: they said, okay, we'll believe you, and they circled the

673
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: wagons around him again because he was an aristocrat. But

674
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: the CIA, the FBI, M I five, which is like

675
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: the UK's version of the FBI, all of them were

676
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 2: like this guy, Kim Philby, he's the third man, he's

677
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: a Soviet spy and I six would not hear of it.

678
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: And there is actually a riff that developed between six

679
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: and the other agencies. But the reason why I six

680
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: was willing to do this was because, like we said,

681
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: he was such a good friend, that is true friends

682
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: who were left who weren't spies came to his defense,

683
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: and they staked their reputations on Kim philby not being

684
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: the third man, the Soviet spy that was still embedded

685
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 2: in the in six.

686
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and those were James Angleton, who he talked about,

687
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: the CIA guy for twenty years. In a guy named

688
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: Nicholas Elliott, a career guy at mi I six, so

689
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: they him from being prosecuted. He couldn't still work at

690
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: m I six. He was forced to resign. They couldn't

691
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: save his job. But when this all came out, he

692
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: should have been it should have been like over for him,

693
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 1: but he held it again. The Wabels. In this guy,

694
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: he holds a press conference at his mom's house in

695
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: London and like live on camera, just very openly and

696
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: convincingly answers all these pointed questions from reporters, saying like

697
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: my two friends deceive me. Everyone ended up believing him.

698
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,959
Speaker 1: And while this made him like technically a free guy,

699
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: he didn't have that job anymore, and he thrived on

700
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: that job. So he was pretty miserable at this point

701
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: and drinking way way too much.

702
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, for not the last time in his life. He

703
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 2: almost drank himself to death between nineteen fifty one and

704
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty six, when he was just totally unmoored in

705
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: a drift. He was no longer an am I six.

706
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: The Soviets had cut off contact with him, and his

707
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: friend Nicholas Elliott, one of those guys who would stake

708
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: their reputation on Kim Philbey not being a Soviet spy.

709
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 2: He he pulled some strings. He used to be this

710
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 2: I six station chief in beay Root, and he got

711
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: in touch with some friends at the Observer and at

712
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,959
Speaker 2: the Economist and said, why don't you take this guy,

713
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: Kim Philby as one of your reporters. He's a longtime journalist.

714
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: He used to be a journalist and covered the world.

715
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Why don't you put him to work in Beyroot? And

716
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: they did. They put him in as a Middle East

717
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: correspondent for both of those papers.

718
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: And while this happened, or sort of shortly after this happened,

719
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: Elliott said, and you know what, you can start working

720
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: for MI I six again, just on the down low, right.

721
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: We'll throw you some bones here and there you can

722
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: go to work. So now Philby has this once again.

723
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: He's a journalist again. He's quietly working for I six again.

724
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 1: And he could have just you know, played it straight

725
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: from this point forward and been like, all right, I

726
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: got back on track. But he calls up through Ruskies

727
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: and he's like, guess what, oh, boys, guess who's back

728
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: in and immediately, you know, because of his love of

729
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: Communism is one thing, I think, but the author of

730
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: that book, Mackensire, also makes a point that and I

731
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: think a good one, that he was sort of addicted

732
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: to this kind of lifestyle, the deception lifestyle of drinking

733
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: and philandering and leading these two lives. Like he seemed

734
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: to really thrive off of that subterfuge and could not

735
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: give it up right.

736
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: So he was back in and again he was happy

737
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: to be alive once again. And I think this lasted

738
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: for about a year. A woman named Flora Solomon came forward.

739
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: She had been reading some of Philby's articles in either

740
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: The Observer of the Economists or both that were unflattering

741
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: toward Israel, and Flora Solomon was dedicated to the cause

742
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: of Israel and did not like that. So she said,

743
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 2: you know what, I've had this thing in my pocket

744
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: for thirty years. Kim Philbey approached me when we were

745
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: back at Cambridge and asked me if I wanted to

746
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: become a Soviet spy and I said no, and then

747
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: I just let it go for thirty years until he

748
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 2: ticks me off. And so this was this was it,

749
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 2: Like she said, this guy is a Soviet spy, told

750
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: an editor at one of the papers, either the Economists

751
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 2: or the Observer. Again they turned around and told six,

752
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: and Kim Philby was in again in trouble, and this

753
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: time he had nobody to swoop in to help him out.

754
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: He was he was basically cooked.

755
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: I feel like those kind of loose ends don't happen

756
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: in intelligence anymore, Like, oh, this woman who you tried

757
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: to recruit as a spy is just out there with

758
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: this information.

759
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: I read why Why Because m I six at the

760
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: time was doing something called negative vetting. They would look

761
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 2: at your record, your file, whatever they had on you,

762
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 2: and as long as nothing no red flags popped out,

763
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: you were in, rather than positive betting, where they conducted

764
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: an actual background like a background investigation on you. That

765
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: they went to the trouble of like doing research as

766
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: long as there's no problems your wow. So that was

767
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: one reason why it changed.

768
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: Okay, well that makes sense. Thank glad you knew that.

769
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: Thank you. So where were we? Okay, So he was

770
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: in trouble. He couldn't deny, you know, what was going

771
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: on any longer. His buddy, Nichol Nicholas Elliott was pretty upset. Obviously,

772
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: he volunteered to go to beir route and get a

773
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: confession out of Philby, and he tried to deny it

774
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: to him still, but Elliott was he was super upset

775
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: at this point, and he was like, you're you're my friend.

776
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: You pulled a charade over my eyes. The blank the

777
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: charad over my eyes. The wool the wooly blanket has

778
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: been pulled over my eyes, old boy, and he was,

779
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: he was, he was ticked off. And finally he was like, hey, listen,

780
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: give me a full confession. I can make sure you're

781
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: not prosecuted for this. Philby knew that like even if

782
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: that happened, he wouldn't be like a free man. Like

783
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: the m I six was all of a sudden going

784
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: to put the thumb screws on him to try and

785
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: get all the information he ever had about the Soviets. Right,

786
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: the Soviets were probably going to try and snuff him

787
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: out right. So he's like, I gotta just leave. I

788
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: got to get the heck out of here.

789
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: Well, he compromised, so just this past January they declassified

790
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 2: the confession that he gave to Nicholas Elliott, and in

791
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: it he basically said, yes, I spied for the Soviets,

792
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: but only while they were allies to the UK, just

793
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: in World War two yea, and in nineteen forty six

794
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: I stopped. So he compromised. He had to give them something,

795
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: but he also didn't give them enough that the Soviets

796
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: would want to kill him.

797
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: Right right, well, hopefully right.

798
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: Exactly, and that Nicholas Elliott had a great quote when

799
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: he went to bay Rude. He said, I once looked

800
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: up to you, Kim, My God, how I despise you. Now.

801
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 2: I hope you've enough decency left to understand why.

802
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, so painful.

803
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: Philby's sitting there, He's doing three days of interviews with

804
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: Nicholas Elliott, and on the third day he's like, that's enough.

805
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: I'm out of here. And he vanished from be Root

806
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 2: in January of nineteen sixty three, shortly after telling his

807
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 2: wife he'd meet her at a diplomatic dinner party that evening,

808
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: and he hopped on the Soviet freighter and slipped away

809
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: so easily that even the KGB was like, We're pretty

810
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: sure Nicholas Elliott let him slip away.

811
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he may have, because just to let him

812
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: quietly leave was a lot less embarrassing for England than

813
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: to put him on trial and to go through this

814
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: big public spectacle where all these people are trotted out

815
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: and ask like, how did this guy get away with

816
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: this for so long under your watch? So he left.

817
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: He lived in Moscow for the rest of his life. Yeah,

818
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: twenty five years. You can google pictures of like an

819
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: elderly Kim philby walking around Moscow. He eventually would die

820
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: in a Russian hospital in nineteen eighty eight, and never

821
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: said a bad word about the reign of terror from

822
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: Stalin or anything like that. He got the Order of Lenin,

823
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: like you said, was awarded the highest honors in three different,

824
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: very opposing places.

825
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: Right exactly.

826
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: He was so good at lying in his spycraft.

827
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: He also, I mean, he was considered, i think still

828
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: to this day is considered a national hero in Russia.

829
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 2: He was featured on a postage stamp in nineteen ninety

830
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: as part of the Soviet intelligence Agent series of postage stamps.

831
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: And I think he got full military KGB honors when

832
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: he was buried in Moscow. And yet I read this

833
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: blog called Cipher Brief and they basically say the big

834
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: problem they did, in an addition to all the lives

835
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: lost because of him, was just the damage he did

836
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: at creating paranoia in all of the intelligence agencies which

837
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 2: tore themselves apart looking for Soviet spies because they found

838
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 2: out that they were not just three, but five. And

839
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 2: they tore themselves up for decades to come looking for

840
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: that fifth one because they didn't know who it was,

841
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 2: and it turned out it was a guy named John

842
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: karn Cross. And then there was another one named Anthony Blunt,

843
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: who was the art curator for the Crown, but he

844
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: was a trader at any rate. That was one of

845
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: the big lasting legacies Kim Philby left behind him was

846
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 2: just utter paranoia.

847
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if it could have been them, it

848
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: could have been anyone. And it was also this sort

849
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: of this bedrock thing of that up until then had

850
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: been you know, if you come from the right family,

851
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: if you come from the right world, then you're to

852
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: be trusted as an insider. M h. It rocked them

853
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: to the very foundation.

854
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,439
Speaker 2: Well put chaps, you got anything else?

855
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: Well no, But since he said chap, I think you

856
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: know what that means.

857
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: It means that I've unlocked less than her mail.

858
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: That's right. This is from it says Emily. But there's

859
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: a little is it an accent? Al goo or grove

860
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: which is the one that goes from northeast to southwest?

861
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: Like I know, okay, that's above the east. So I'm

862
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: not sure how Emily pronounces the name. There might be emil.

863
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: No like you would pronounce the e. If it has

864
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: an accent. There's something to it, eh Mel. Thank it

865
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: all right?

866
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, been listening since around twenty eighteen provided me

867
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: much comfort, entertainment, and knowledge, So thank you. I'm from

868
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: Montreal and I love your poutine short stuff episode. I'm

869
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: somewhat of a poutine super fan and purist. It's been

870
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: on my mission to try and rate as many poutines

871
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 1: as possible throughout Quebec to find my favorite. I thought

872
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: i'd share my personal poutine rating system with you because

873
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: I've found it to be a rigorous method. Nice poor criteria.

874
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: Number one cheese kurt how squeaky? Are the kurds too

875
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: big or too small?

876
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 2: Okay?

877
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 1: Number two? Gravy sauce too sweet? Tomato e not salty enough?

878
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 1: Too runny?

879
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: Tomato we.

880
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: Eh, I don't know, okay. Uh, French fries too limp ugh?

881
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: Is the cut tooth thick? Are they tasteless? Oh?

882
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do they taste like Wendy's tasteless fries?

883
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: Oh not on the Wendy's fries?

884
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: Huh No?

885
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: Pretty good dipped in a frosty though, Yes. Assembly is

886
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: the cheese gravy fry ratio just right? That's a big one.

887
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

888
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: Is the portion too big or too small? And bonus

889
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: fifth criteria the value for money.

890
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good good extra one there at the end.

891
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty good. Even though poutine is a simple dish,

892
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: Guy's the beauty of it is so that it can

893
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: be adapted to everyone's own personal taste. Thank you very

894
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: much for the podcast. To all the team have a

895
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: nice day.

896
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 2: That is from Emele, Thank you very much, Emilay Emily.

897
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 2: That is a great test, a litmus tests, if you will,

898
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: for poutine. In my opinion, it would be really tough

899
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: for the gravy too potato ratio to be too much gravy.

900
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 2: It'd be easy to be too little gravy, but too

901
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 2: much gravy would be hard to achieve.

902
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: In my opinion, that could lead to a soggy fry, though.

903
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: That just means you're not eating them fast enough.

904
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: Good point.

905
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: All right, Well, if you want to be like Emily

906
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 2: and send us your own personal litmus test for something

907
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 2: or other, we love that kind of stuff, you can

908
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: send it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

909
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

910
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

911
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.