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Speaker 1: Indra rolls out the red kopet for the G twenty

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Speaker 1: summit to New Delhi and Mijawa leaders have started to

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Speaker 1: arrive in the Indian capital.

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Speaker 2: G twenty leaders are meeting in India this weekend amid

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Speaker 2: considerable divisions over the war in Ukraine and other key

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Speaker 2: global issues.

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Speaker 3: World leaders who gathered at the Group of twenty meeting

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Speaker 3: in New Delhi last week had plenty to discuss the

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Speaker 3: war in Ukraine, of course, but also energy, climate change,

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Speaker 3: and concerns about the health of the global economy. But

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Speaker 3: arguably the real center of attention in India was India

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Speaker 3: itself and the rising influence of Prime Minister Narendra Modi

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Speaker 3: in global affairs. With the world's largest population one point

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Speaker 3: four billion people and a fast growing economy, India under

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Speaker 3: Modi is seeking to become a global power with friends

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Speaker 3: in the developing and developed world, and one that doesn't

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Speaker 3: have to take a clear side in the rivalry between

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Speaker 3: East and West.

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Speaker 4: What you did, I mean that was a much more

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Speaker 4: confident India, particularly under Mody, that's very very self assured

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Speaker 4: and very confident in the direction they're going in.

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Speaker 1: If you look at India's foreign policy in the last

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Speaker 1: fifty to sixty years, India's always tried to claim that

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Speaker 1: it's a champion of the developing world.

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Speaker 3: That's Bloomberg's Dan ten Kate and Sudi Rajhsen. They're here

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Speaker 3: to talk about India's international clout and how Mody is

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Speaker 3: solidifying his own power at home and abroad ahead of

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Speaker 3: elections in India next year. I'm west Kasova today on

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Speaker 3: the big take India puts itself front and center on

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Speaker 3: the world stage. Sudi, this was a very big moment

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Speaker 3: for India's leader, and he had really made this summit

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Speaker 3: sort of a showcase for India itself.

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Speaker 5: Not only for India itself. I mean, not only was

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Speaker 5: he trying to project India abroad, but he was trying

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Speaker 5: to project himself.

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Speaker 1: Internally as well.

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Speaker 5: And that is a big thing because India goes into

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Speaker 5: elections next year. And the important thing to note oubt

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Speaker 5: here is that the government or India's economy is not

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Speaker 5: doing that great. There are issues about economy, the issues

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Speaker 5: about inflation, about unemployment. But what we are getting to

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Speaker 5: see of what we are you know, witnessing, is this

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Speaker 5: entire foreign policy kind of trying to trump internal issues

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Speaker 5: and that seems to be a very well thought out

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Speaker 5: plan and method that the Prime Minister is trying to

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Speaker 5: take as he goes into the elections next year.

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Speaker 3: And Dan it seemed that all of the different world tensions,

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Speaker 3: and there are so many of them, were on display

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Speaker 3: at this meeting.

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Speaker 4: It was quite an intense weekend. The build up to

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Speaker 4: the G twenty was also interesting. It was very uncertain

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Speaker 4: going into it whether Mody could actually reach a deal,

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Speaker 4: and in fact, you know, we heard from many people

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Speaker 4: that China was trying to thwart any sort of victory

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Speaker 4: for Mody. Xiji Ping didn't even go to the meeting,

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Speaker 4: kind of shunning Mody, and that was just seen as

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Speaker 4: trying to take away from his big moment on the

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Speaker 4: world stage. You know, China and India have sparred over

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Speaker 4: lots of things, including a border dispute, but more broadly,

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Speaker 4: you know, there's this question of who is the major

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Speaker 4: spokesperson for the global South, and that turned into you know,

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Speaker 4: a massive storyline at the G twenty over the weekend.

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Speaker 4: Any G twenty normally has a community k that's hashed

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Speaker 4: out for months ahead of time. There's people called chirpas

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Speaker 4: from each country that get together separately and they figure

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Speaker 4: out all the things they're going to say in this

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Speaker 4: range is climate change and financing and how to deal

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Speaker 4: with debt in the emerging world, the state of the economy,

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Speaker 4: things like that. The last two years have really been

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Speaker 4: focused on Ukraine and after Russia's invasion of Ukraine and

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Speaker 4: how are we going to describe that? And that turned

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Speaker 4: out to be the big sticking point on this one,

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Speaker 4: And the result was also somewhat surprising in that regard.

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Speaker 6: Leaders at the G twenty summit in Delhi have issued

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Speaker 6: a joint declaration despite why differences over the war in Ukraine.

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Speaker 6: Unlike last year's Bali communicay, this year's document does not

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Speaker 6: mention Russia by name.

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Speaker 4: And this communicator that was eventually agreed upon, I mean,

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Speaker 4: it was criticized by Ukraine in particular for weathering down

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Speaker 4: the language, but I think it's also important to understand

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Speaker 4: it in the context of trying to win over the

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Speaker 4: global South. You saw the US and Joe Biden in

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Speaker 4: particularly emphasize a just peace. And one of the criticisms

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Speaker 4: of the Emerging World is that China has basically taken

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Speaker 4: the narrative for peace with Chiju and Pink's Peace Blueprint

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Speaker 4: earlier this year, and you see the G seven trying

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Speaker 4: to take that back, saying we're not for perpetual war here,

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Speaker 4: we actually want to solve this thing. And the other

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Speaker 4: major theme was just agreeing to something that would give

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Speaker 4: Mody a win, because the US very much sees India

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Speaker 4: as a counterweight to China, and India is a willing

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Speaker 4: sort of partner in trying to block Chinese interests in

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Speaker 4: the Indo Pacific, and if this summit ended with a

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Speaker 4: black eye for Modi, that would have been very damaging

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Speaker 4: in that regard. So what they essentially did was they

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Speaker 4: watered down the language on Ukraine in order to give

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Speaker 4: India a win against China in kind of a bigger game.

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Speaker 1: So to speak.

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Speaker 4: There's certainly a lot of people who think the US

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Speaker 4: and its allies folded, particularly on Ukraine, that this thing

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Speaker 4: was a mess. The reality is that the Group of Twenty,

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Speaker 4: the G twenty, is the only international body where you

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Speaker 4: have the US sent it salities, the G seven, and

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Speaker 4: other emerging world powers including China and Russia, sitting down

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Speaker 4: in the same forum. If they didn't agree on this,

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Speaker 4: if they couldn't find consensus then this body would fall

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Speaker 4: apart and you wouldn't have a forum where countries could

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Speaker 4: hash out and try and come to some sort of understanding.

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Speaker 4: And I guess the question is, you know, is that

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Speaker 4: even worth doing anymore? Is it worth having a body

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Speaker 4: like this where they can do these things even if

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Speaker 4: nobody gets what they want. I mean, you saw Russia

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Speaker 4: thinking this was a good deal, and you saw the

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Speaker 4: G seven thinking this was a good deal, and you know,

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Speaker 4: that's pretty rare. That was one of the most interesting

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Speaker 4: elements of this.

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Speaker 3: SUDI. The uscs India as an important partner, and one

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Speaker 3: of the things that you've written about is how India

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Speaker 3: has managed to very carefully thread a lot of different

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Speaker 3: needles by having other countries like Russia also see India

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Speaker 3: as a partner and has managed to maintain good relationships

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Speaker 3: with different countries where there are a lot of tensions

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Speaker 3: between them.

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Speaker 1: What we see as in this foreign policy is that

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Speaker 1: it's trying to be friends with the US, with the West,

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Speaker 1: in particular Germany, France, where it's looking for high end

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Speaker 1: technology defense technology like submarines, fighter engines, and at the

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Speaker 1: same point of time being friends with Russia, buying oil

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Speaker 1: from Russia buying weapons from Russia, and in fact, we

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Speaker 1: had the Russian Lavrov saying that Russia has going to

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Speaker 1: honor all defense contracts with India. We haven't seen India

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Speaker 1: saying that Russian defense contracts are being canceled. So yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's trying to play both sides.

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Speaker 5: It's done well so far, but there are importables and

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Speaker 5: there could be problems down the road.

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Speaker 4: India is very reliant on Russia weapons and they have

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Speaker 4: been just for decades. Essentially, if they don't have Russian weapons,

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Speaker 4: they will not have weapons to fight against China. It's

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Speaker 4: going to take years and years for India's military to

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Speaker 4: wean off Russian weapons. If they take a really hard

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Speaker 4: line on India, that will only hurt India's capacity to

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Speaker 4: go after China and serve as a deterre to China.

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Speaker 4: You know, the US is playing a bigger game here,

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Speaker 4: India is playing a bigger game here, and that bigger

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Speaker 4: game is essentially China. And you know, of course they

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Speaker 4: want to stand up for you and principles, and I

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Speaker 4: think that came across and they communicate. But at the

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Speaker 4: same time, it's impossible to look at this outcome and

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Speaker 4: not see that they have their eyes on China here.

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Speaker 3: After the break, can India maintain this uneasy balance with China? Sudi.

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Speaker 3: We've talked quite a bit about the relationship between India

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Speaker 3: and China and the tension there. What exactly is the

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Speaker 3: tension between those two countries.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, if you look at the tensions that

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Speaker 5: are several. One you have at the border, you know,

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Speaker 5: along with the Humalayas. It's an unmarked border and it's

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Speaker 5: been there for the last seventy audios ever since both

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Speaker 5: countries became independent and came to be in their present shape.

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Speaker 1: The other space that's playing out is the trade relationships.

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Speaker 1: India is heavily heavily dependent on China. In fact, India

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Speaker 1: claims itself to be the pharmacy of the world. But

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Speaker 1: to be the pharmacy of the world, it does need

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff from China. It cannot be the

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Speaker 1: pharmacy of the world if it doesn't get the raw

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Speaker 1: materials from China. Or along with it comes the very

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Speaker 1: high trade deficit that India has with China, and you know,

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Speaker 1: cheap electronics that India kind of imports from China. Those

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Speaker 1: things are playing out at the same point of time,

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Speaker 1: which is leading the other So far, it has been

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Speaker 1: the border dispute that's kind of been the lead in

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Speaker 1: all this while the others are following. But they're very

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Speaker 1: much there on the table and playing out very hard.

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Speaker 3: Dan As Sudi says, there's tension with China and yet

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Speaker 3: India needs China. How has Mody kept that relationship from

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Speaker 3: boiling over.

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Speaker 4: A lot of diplomacy. For sure, there's agreements along the border.

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Speaker 4: The border has been relatively quiet of late. That's one

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Speaker 4: part of it. We saw Moody meet with she ahead

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Speaker 4: of the G twenty. A lot of people looked at

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Speaker 4: that and said, well, maybe she will show up.

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Speaker 2: Now China has confirmed that president's seating being will not

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Speaker 2: attend the G twenty summit this weekend. Premiate Leedsiang will

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Speaker 2: be going for the meeting in New Delhi instead.

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Speaker 4: You know the fact that she shunned the meeting was

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Speaker 4: definitely a sign that things are not very you know,

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Speaker 4: it's hard to imagine she not showing up in Brazil,

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Speaker 4: for instance, So it was definitely seen as something where

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Speaker 4: he could have easily gone if he wanted to. It's

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Speaker 4: a tricky relationship. It's the world's two most populous countries.

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Speaker 4: India is trying to keep out Chinese investment that they

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Speaker 4: view as a security threat, particularly with data and mobile

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Speaker 4: phone apps, and trying to ban those, even going much

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Speaker 4: harder than the US has gone in that regard. So

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Speaker 4: the tensions exist, but yes, they certainly need a lot

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Speaker 4: of stuff from China if India is going to realize

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Speaker 4: its growth potential over the next ten twenty years.

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Speaker 3: So do we hear a lot about how China has

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Speaker 3: tried to court other countries, especially in the Global South,

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Speaker 3: and bring them more toward China and away from the US.

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Speaker 3: And Mody has been doing something similar, trying to make

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Speaker 3: friends with many other countries. What is the strategy behind that.

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Speaker 1: It's a strategy that we are watching, but Fia not

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Speaker 1: from baby which way's headed. If you look at India's

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Speaker 1: foreign policy in the last fifty to sixty years, Indias

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Speaker 1: always tried to claim that it's a champion of the

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Speaker 1: developing world, and there's a huge history between India and

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Speaker 1: the non online movement and the developing world. We see

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Speaker 1: Prime Minism Moody kind of pivoting back to that entire narrative.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons what one can understand from the

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Speaker 1: ground is that the Prime Minisa is trying to reclaim

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Speaker 1: India's old position, and that's because that gives India a

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Speaker 1: lot of theft with the other nations. And also it's

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Speaker 1: also a policy to counter China, because if we look

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Speaker 1: at China the way that it's unfolded the Belton Road

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Speaker 1: Initiative in Africa, in the developing world, it clearly outran

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Speaker 1: the West and India, so it's an effort to kind

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Speaker 1: of climb back to reclaim lost territory.

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Speaker 3: Dan For several years, Jijenping has been pretty open about

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Speaker 3: making China an alternative power center to the US. Does

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Speaker 3: MODI have a similar goal with India to be its

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Speaker 3: own power center.

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Speaker 4: Not another power center per se? I think what China

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Speaker 4: is trying to do is create different norms and values

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Speaker 4: in the world that aren't US focused or US aligned.

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Speaker 4: They often talk about the rules based order and they say,

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Speaker 4: you know, well, who came up with these rules? These

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Speaker 4: aren't our rules, These are your rules.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 4: They'll often try and isolate the G seven and say

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Speaker 4: you're just seven countries. There's more than two hundred countries

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Speaker 4: in the world, and most of them are with US,

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Speaker 4: and that's really what the US was trying to counter

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Speaker 4: and where they see India playing a major role. India

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Speaker 4: and the US the values are much more aligned than

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Speaker 4: the US and China, for instance. I mean, now India

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Speaker 4: comes under a lot of criticism, justly for the treatment

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Speaker 4: of religious minorities that we've seen under the Modi administration.

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Speaker 4: There's definitely issues there, But all in all, India is

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Speaker 4: a democracy. It does have, you know, a much more

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Speaker 4: vibrant press than China and other very repressive countries, and

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Speaker 4: all in all, they share very similar values. And if

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Speaker 4: you look at the Quad in particular, which is one

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Speaker 4: of the groups that the US and India are involved

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Speaker 4: in with Australia and Japan, those are democracies in Asia

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Speaker 4: that are designed to set down rules of the road

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Speaker 4: and ensure stability in that regard. When the US looks

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Speaker 4: at the world, they say, you know, do we want

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Speaker 4: China as the main actor kind of convincing all these

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Speaker 4: other countries in Africa and the rest of the so

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Speaker 4: called Global South to align more closely with Chinese values,

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Speaker 4: or do we want them aligning with India's values? And

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Speaker 4: India is much closer to where the G seven is.

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Speaker 4: And so if the US can prop up India as

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Speaker 4: the champion of the global South, ultimately they see that

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Speaker 4: leading to a more democratic world, more free speech, more

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Speaker 4: of these things that ultimately are more aligned with the

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Speaker 4: values of the US and its allies.

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Speaker 3: When we come back, Modi looks to stay in power

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Speaker 3: for years to come. So do We've talked a lot

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Speaker 3: about India and China and India and the US, But

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Speaker 3: what about India's relationship with the EU, because there's also

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Speaker 3: a lot of tension there.

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Speaker 1: Well, definitely, there is a lot of tension, and historically

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Speaker 1: India is veryy, very so to say of the European Union.

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Speaker 1: Going back into history, in a way, India has always

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Speaker 1: been committing of walking into any one block wholeheartedly. Even

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Speaker 1: during the seventeen and the eighties when India was, you know,

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Speaker 1: much more closer to Russia, India did keep on saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a non aligned country while it was

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Speaker 1: dependent on Russia completely and went along happily. Today India

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Speaker 1: depending on Europe, on America and of course Russia for weapons,

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Speaker 1: from for oil. But at the same point of time

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Speaker 1: kind of saying that you know this we need to

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Speaker 1: do because of X, Y and Z reasons. It never

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to kind of come out openly. So I

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Speaker 1: guess that's that's the kind of foreign policy that India

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Speaker 1: wants to follow.

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Speaker 4: I think it comes down to just strategic self interest

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Speaker 4: on the part of all these countries, India as well. India.

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Speaker 4: You know, we met a lot with ministers in Delhi

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Speaker 4: over the last two days and other officials. But you know,

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Speaker 4: if you're going to bring up to them China plus

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Speaker 4: one strategies and how companies look at the world, you

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Speaker 4: know that that is not a popular phrase in Delhi.

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Speaker 4: They don't want to hear that. They want to say, like,

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Speaker 4: India has its own value proposition, companies should come here

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Speaker 4: because we have demographics on our side. We have a

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Speaker 4: young population that's going to be young for a while.

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Speaker 4: We've been emerging middle class. And you look at China,

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Speaker 4: it's economy slowing, it's aging. India has its own independent

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Speaker 4: foreign policy, and I think that's also what is very

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Speaker 4: clear that India is saying, we're going to play by

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Speaker 4: our rules here. Ultimately, if you're sitting in Europe, yes

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Speaker 4: you have problems with India, but when you look at

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Speaker 4: the world where it's going, who's going to have these

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Speaker 4: big opportunities over the next ten twenty years, and who

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Speaker 4: aligns more with your values. That's how they can do

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Speaker 4: business with the other. So India is very very confident

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Speaker 4: at the moment. I was in Delhi about a decade ago.

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Speaker 4: Now it was not the case then, trust me, it was.

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Speaker 4: What you're dealing with now is a much more confident India,

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Speaker 4: particularly under Moodi, that's very very self assured and very

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Speaker 4: confident in the direction they're going in. And Europe and

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Speaker 4: the US they do have issues with India, but overall,

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Speaker 4: you know, they really see an opportunity to align with

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Speaker 4: India and bolster India as a counterway to China.

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Speaker 3: Sudy. You mentioned domestic considerations earlier, and India has an

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Speaker 3: election coming up next year. How much of Modi's strategy

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Speaker 3: has to do with playing to his own voters at home, I.

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Speaker 1: Would say a lot. If you look back, India was

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Speaker 1: supposed to host the g twenty a year ago, and

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Speaker 1: you know, India kind of went back and said that

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Speaker 1: we will do it, not now, but a year later.

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Speaker 1: It's very clever politics on part of crime in the cimolity.

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Speaker 1: It is being done with a very specific motive that

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Speaker 1: he wants the entire country to know, you know, our G.

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Speaker 7: Twenty is happening, and in between kind of blow the

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Speaker 7: fact that it is a rotating presidency while projecting himself

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Speaker 7: as this leader who has been able to get the

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Speaker 7: G twenty and therefore it's a very big thing for

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Speaker 7: the country.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'll just say, in Delhi you could not go

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Speaker 4: basically twenty feet without seeing Mody's face on a poster.

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Speaker 4: So there were clear undertones for the election. The opposition

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Speaker 4: is trying to make the election close. They are uniting together,

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Speaker 4: which is necessary given Mody's utter dominance of Indian politics

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Speaker 4: over the past decade. You know, they are uniting and

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Speaker 4: trying to houst him. But it's still going to be

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Speaker 4: a toll order. It's very likely that Mody's party will

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Speaker 4: win again, even if it has a reduced majority in Parliament.

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Speaker 4: So much like Shishimping just extended his decade in power,

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Speaker 4: Mody is likely to do that as well, and he

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Speaker 4: could be in power even innother ten years. There's no

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Speaker 4: obvious person to take over from him. Now for the world,

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Speaker 4: what that means is there to be dealing with mody

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Speaker 4: for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: Dan Sudi, great talking with you, Thanks for taking the time,

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks for listening to us here at The

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