1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, we gotta start this 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: episode with a shout out that's right to listener Katrina. Yeah. 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: We've got Katrina at our meet up in l A 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: a little while ago, back at the beginning of February, 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: and she had emailed us previously about issues surrounding people 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: with disabilities, all sorts of different issues, really great ideas 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: for some sminty episodes. And so after we met her, 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: she re emailed us that, which we're very grateful for, 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: and we have chosen from her list of topics. Yeah, 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: so today we're going to talk about the de sexualization 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: of people with disabilities and all of the history and 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: culture and political issues today surrounding that. Um. And again 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: Katrina to thank you for this fantastic idea, because really 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: we have not talked all that much at all about 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: people with disabilities on the podcast. It's high time that 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: we cover this. Yeah, absolutely, particularly because this is a 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: growing conversation and it has been a growing conversation and 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: I think more recently it entered this topic entered the 21 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: public conversation UH in ten when Rochelle Friedman Chapman, who 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: had been paralyzed from the chest down at twenty four 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: UH post and laundry to combat a bunch of assumptions 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: around the idea that people with disabilities can't be sexy. 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: But even before that, in Jess Soxy, who has Freeman's 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: Sheldon syndrome, posed in American apparel esque shots to counteract 27 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: the mother ing and de sexualization of people with disabilities. 28 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: And I remember sharing those photos of Saxy on the 29 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: stuff mob never told you social media because was I mean, 30 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: it was just very clever, because those American apparel poses 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: are so just kind of idiosyncratic to that brand and 32 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: so hyper sexual, and I mean it was it was 33 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: just such a smart way to do that and such 34 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: an important campaign for raising that visibility. And then Jess, 35 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: who prefers the pronoun, they posted this photo series depicting 36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: themselves on naked on a crane or posing with a crane, 37 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: and they said that they wanted to sort of grapple 38 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: with this idea of people are always staring at me? 39 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: What are they staring at I'm finally going to really 40 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: really look at myself naked, and you are going to 41 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: look at me naked as well, just to again sort 42 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: of helped to fight that stigma of you don't look 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: like the general population at large, so you must be 44 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: different in every way. Well, and that it's also the 45 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: polite thing to do to look away from people with disabilities. 46 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: Don't draw attention to it, which is kind of politely 47 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: in quotes, ignore it. Um. And one bit of history 48 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: that I did not know going into this podcast was 49 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: that twenty five years ago a woman named Ellen Stole, 50 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: who had been paralyzed from the neck down, became the 51 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: first woman with a disability to pose in Playboy. And 52 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: she said, the reason why I chose Playboy magazine for 53 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: this endeavor is its sexuality is the hardest thing for 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: a disabled person to hold on to. Helf was really 55 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: adamant that I had their right to have the same 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: sexual voice as women without disabilities. And I took a 57 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: look at the photos and I mean, it does look 58 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: like a typical Playboy spread. I mean, Stole is naked 59 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: on a bed and you have the kind of glossy 60 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: filter across her, and um, yeah, I mean it looks 61 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: just like any other centerfold. Yeah, And there was an 62 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: interview with both Hef and Stole, and he said that 63 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: her disability had made her feel like a non person, 64 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: like a non sexual being, and she was very articulate 65 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: at expressing exactly that the pictorial could serve not only 66 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: her but other people with disabilities as a way of saying, 67 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: we're human beings too, and sex is a natural part 68 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: of being alive with a disability or without. And the 69 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: thing is, if we look back at the history of 70 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: how we as humans have treated people with disabilities, I mean, 71 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff happening is downright revolutionary, you know, 72 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: because we're having to unearth centuries and centuries of this 73 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of marginalization and de sexualization. Because, as Catherine Quarmby 74 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: wrote about over in a really in depth piece at Mosaic, 75 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: there are some deeply ingrained and dehumanizing tropes about people 76 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: with disabilities. Yeah. She cites author Tom Shakespeare, who wrote 77 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: The Sexual Politics of Disability, and he points to a 78 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: bunch of threads from mythology, from literature, which of course 79 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,559 Speaker 1: reflect attitudes in the popular culture at large, stretching back 80 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: hundreds of years. And of course one of the biggest 81 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: tropes is that people with disabilities are just completely one 82 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: a sexual there's the idea that women and men are 83 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: viewed as impotent, sexless, and unattractive, and this makes them 84 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: vulnerable to mockery. It was Cicero who wrote in Deformity 85 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: and Bodily Disfigurement there is good material in making jokes. 86 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: So we are now in the twenty first century, I 87 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: feel like just still at the very beginning of unraveling 88 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: all of that other ing and all of the dismissal 89 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: of people with disabilities, and that other ring is very 90 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: much present to in ancient mythology. I mean, if we 91 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: look at the story of haffaced Us, the blacksmith god 92 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: with a shriveled foot who marries Aphrodite. Aphrodity ends up 93 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: carrying on all these affairs because his disability makes him unmanly. 94 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: There's that emasculating aspect as well. And then if we 95 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: fast forward to something I had not thought about while 96 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: reading this book, if we look at Lady Chatterley's lover Constance, 97 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: the main woman takes up with the gamekeeper after her 98 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: husband is paralyzed from the waist down during World War One, 99 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: and this develops into a concept known as Chatterly syndrome, 100 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: where a disabled man's loss of sexual power gives his 101 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: wife freedom to get her satisfaction elsewhere. Wasn't this side 102 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: note Caroline kind of a subplot a little while back 103 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: in Downton Abbey when Matthew is injured in the war. Uh, 104 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: do we have a little Chatterlee syndrome happening? I think? 105 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: Didn't he like encourage her to go They weren't married yet, 106 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: he encouraged her to go find another husband or man 107 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 1: or something because he's like, oh, I'm not a whole 108 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: real man anymore, and she's stuck with him. Yeah. Well, 109 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: and I from what I remember too from Lady Chatterley's 110 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: Lover Besides all of the titillating bits was how they 111 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: characterized her husband as an unlikable guy too, like the 112 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: disability not only made him impotent, but also seemed to 113 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: make him devoid of any kind of decency. Yeah well, 114 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean, and then that ties into another one of 115 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: the tropes that Cornby and Shakespeare talk about, which is 116 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: that disabled people are perverse. This was especially a thing 117 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: during the seventeenth century. Wind Witch hunts everybody, from women 118 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: with mental health problems, older people with dementia. Two people 119 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: with cancerous growth faced the stigma that they were somehow twisted, 120 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: and this was tied in with the idea that disability 121 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: was sometimes considered a punishment for sins uh, and that 122 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: a person with a disability was an unsuitable partner, perhaps 123 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: because he or she supposedly evil powers of some kind. Yeah. 124 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: I mean, if we look at the literary example of 125 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: Shakespeare's Richard the Third, Uh, he's described as having twisted 126 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: body and mind. Yeah. But then but then, so, so 127 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: you've got the tropes of people with disabilities being completely 128 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: a sexual or their perverse in their sexuality, but then 129 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: you have the horrific hyper sexualization of people with disabilities. Yeah. 130 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: So this assumption has been used particularly against women with 131 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: learning disabilities, and it was largely used as a justification 132 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: to abuse women in mental institutions, and even in the 133 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, whistleblowers were drawing attention to rape, abuse, and 134 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: even murder, all based on this concept of you know, 135 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: I guess hyper sexuality being a part of their mental disability, right, 136 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that there's a power element in that too, 137 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: of like, um, using hyper sexuality to justify your thinking 138 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: that uh, this this woman is loose, you know, she 139 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: she will submit to my power because she's obviously weak. 140 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: And then finally we have the whole contamination fears around 141 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: people with disability, this worry that people with disabilities might 142 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: pass it along to their offspring. And this is something 143 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: too that ends up essentially being codified into American law 144 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: with a Supreme Court decision that we're going to talk 145 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: about in just a second, as part of the heyday 146 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: of the eugenics movement in the United States. Yeah. So, 147 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: in case you're wondering why these tropes about people with 148 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: disabilities are such a big deal, you all you have 149 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: to do is look at the very real consequences that 150 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: came out of them. And like Kristen said, I mean, 151 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: we get the eugenics movement in the late nineteenth century 152 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: in early twentieth century. Yeah, I mean, this was something 153 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: that we talked about in our two parter on the 154 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: legal history of abortion. It ties into that um, but 155 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: it also initiated starting in the eighteen eighties, these things 156 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: called ugly laws or unsightly beggar laws that literally made 157 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: it illegal in certain cities for people who were deemed 158 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: unsightly from being seen on the streets at all. And 159 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: this caroline reminds me of modern day anti panhandling laws, 160 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: which are also sort of a legal way to get 161 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: unsightly homeless people off of the sidewalks as well. Um, 162 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just though, the discomfort around people with 163 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: disabilities begging and possibly upsetting people on the street and 164 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: maybe driving away potential business, but also fears around what 165 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: reaction it would cause in pregnant women. Yeah, it was 166 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: believed that a mother encountering these unsightly beggars would have 167 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: a quote equivalent impression made on the fetus, so somehow 168 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: her unborn child would catch a disability, but just by 169 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: virtue of the fact that she saw someone with a 170 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: disability on the street. And then finally, in the mid 171 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: twentieth century, those quote unquote ugly laws are largely replaced 172 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: on a state by state basis with state directed institutionalization 173 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: and treatments. But if we go to nineteen fourteen, it 174 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:30,479 Speaker 1: was illegal for the classified quote feeble minded and insane 175 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: people to marry. I mean, if we if you think 176 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: of words like dumb, idiot, feeble minded, I mean those 177 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: were actual groups of people according to medical signs of 178 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: the day. Yeah, you could look back at old census 179 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: records and see people classified in that way. Um. And 180 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: so from nineteen o seven to ninety thousands of Americans 181 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: were sterilized as part of this growing eugenics movement, and 182 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: in Virginia, law, for instance, allow the forced sterilization of 183 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: quote feeble minded, insane, depressed, mentally, handicapped, epileptic, and other individuals. 184 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: And learning about this, Caroline, I'm really interested to read 185 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: a new book by Adam Cohen called Imbeciles, which is 186 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: all about the Supreme Court the eugenics movement in the 187 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: United States, and it centers around that Virginia case and 188 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: the for sterilization of a woman named Carrie Buck. And 189 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: what happened with Carrie Buck was that she was raped 190 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: and impregnated as a result of that, and after the 191 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 1: child was born, her family or just you know, completely 192 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: incensed by the whole situation, and so they had her 193 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: deemed feeble minded and sent away to a colony for 194 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: epileptics and the feeble minded. And they wanted the people 195 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: who were pro for sterilization, We're looking for some kind 196 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: of test case in order to legalized this whole thing. 197 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: So there's this guy who came in to the epileptic 198 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: and feeble minded colony where Carrie Buck was and saw 199 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: her and said, oh, this is perfect because her mother 200 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: had also been classified as feeble minded. She was classified 201 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: as feeble minded, and she now had this baby who 202 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: could possibly be shown as feeble minded too, in order 203 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: to prove that whole contagious aspect to it. So they 204 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: essentially had a sham case and it allowed for her 205 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: forced sterilization. So then in Carrie Buck brings this case 206 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: again to the Supreme Court to challenge that decision, and 207 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: famed Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes rights in his Supreme Court 208 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: decision upholding that for serialization law that quote, three generations 209 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: of imbeccles is enough, Oh lord. Yeah. And as a result, 210 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: as Cohen talks about two Terry Gross in this Fresh 211 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: Air interview that I was listening to, that now has 212 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: me wanting to read his new book, Imbeciles. As a 213 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: result of that Supreme Court decision seventy thousand for sterilizations 214 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: then happened across the United States. Yeah, because in the 215 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: wake of that decision, twenty seven other states began sterilization program. Yeah, 216 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: I mean and all of that too. We need to 217 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: come back, Caroline and do a whole episode just on 218 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: the for sterilization issue, because it was something directed not 219 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: only at the so called people minded, but also especially 220 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: women of color. I mean, they're all sorts of really 221 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: disgusting layers to the whole thing. Um. And it culminated 222 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: to in the murders of two hundred thousand people with disabilities. 223 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: If we had over to World War two, two or 224 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: thousand people with disabilities who were killed by the Nazis. 225 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: And so this is the base of where we are today. 226 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the history that we're coming out of. 227 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: And so these days the fallout from all of those 228 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: stereotypes and tropes and fears is still evident. Uh. And 229 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: I know that, having just talked about eugenics and for sterilization, 230 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: dating seems almost like it seems almost flippant to talk 231 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: about dating. But this is a real consequence of our 232 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: history of marginalizing people with disabilities. So you've got the 233 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: dating issue right. People with disabilities are less likely to 234 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: marry or have long term partners, but of course that 235 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: varies depending on impairment type according to research, And there 236 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: was a Guardian poll UH that found forty four percent 237 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: of respondents had never had sex with someone with a 238 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: disability and said that they did not think they ever would. 239 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: So like, that's where we are. Those are the attitudes 240 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: that we are dealing with. And one thing that activists, 241 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: you gos Ling, who wrote Abnormal, How Britain became Body 242 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: dysmorphic and the Key to a Cure, discusses is the 243 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: issue of family and friends of people with disabilities over 244 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: protecting them out of a fear of exploitation, because you 245 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: have not only this sexualization, but also to this infantilization. Yeah, exactly, 246 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: of of protecting people with disabilities as if they are 247 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: permanent babies, permanent children. Yeah, I mean, and that's regardless 248 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: of whether we're talking about people with mental disabilities or 249 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: physical disabilities, right exactly. And Gosling points out, you know, 250 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: most women we know are looking for a relationship, and 251 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: disabled people are no different. Um, And she talks about 252 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,119 Speaker 1: how those fears of exploitation could potentially explain this assumption 253 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: that it's better to shield people with disabilities from reaching 254 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 1: out for sexual relationships rather than have them risk rejection. 255 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: So we're trying to protect we I mean families are 256 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: trying to protect them on every front, like, oh, you're 257 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: you're too again, like feeble to handle rejection or trying 258 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: to date on your own, and we are also maybe 259 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: a little scared of your sexuality because you're so different. Yeah, 260 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: I mean, and you could say that for those those 261 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: family members. I mean, the the motive is benevolent, but 262 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: it's all, you know, symptoms of this much larger and 263 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: deep rooted issue. Um. But one of the brighter sides 264 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: of this growing conversation that has been helped along, I 265 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: think a lot by social media and you know, visibility projects, um, 266 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: is how those layers of discrimination are even further compounded 267 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: for people with disabilities who are also lgbt Q, right, Yeah, 268 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: because you've got the whole issue of conflict that can 269 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: potentially arise when you, as a person with a disability 270 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: who also is lgbt Q, have a personal assistant or 271 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: a caregiver who maybe doesn't approve of your sexuality and 272 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: or then tries to control it. Yeah. And they're also 273 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: since it's too of opposite sex partners being allowed to 274 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: stay overnight in supported housing whereas same sex or trans 275 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: partners aren't. So we have homophobia and transphobia at work 276 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, all of this stuff is very layered 277 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: and wrapped up with all of these fears, and another 278 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: huge consequence of that with its own further consequences. Because honestly, 279 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: this discussion is like knocking down dominoes of terrible UM 280 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,719 Speaker 1: is lack of access to appropriate sex aid. And when 281 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: I say appropriate, I don't mean like, don't don't talk 282 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: about too much. You've got to keep it appropriate. I 283 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: mean like literally sex sex education that is appropriate for 284 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: the audience, because people with disabilities don't necessarily have the 285 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: same concerns or needs as their able body peers. Yeah, 286 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: healthcare providers typically aren't equipped to address sexual health and 287 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: function concerns. And then we have the complicating factor of 288 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: individual disabilities requiring different aids and information. But even though 289 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: that might be a complicating factor, of course, that shouldn't 290 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: be an argument to just dismiss it entirely. I mean, 291 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: which is essentially historically what has happened, I mean, sex 292 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: ed in schools, as poor as it generally is an 293 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: our country. Um, still when it happens is for the 294 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: most part directed toward able bodied students. Um. There was 295 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: a Canadian Council for Learning study talking to people with 296 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: disabilities that found one hundred percent of them said that 297 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: their education had been inadequate and that educators didn't have 298 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: sufficient resources to deal with the topic. And it's been 299 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: a problem despite the nineteen Education for All Handicapped Children Act, 300 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: which is PS now called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, 301 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: that required school districts to provide students with disabilities access 302 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: to the same information and classes as their peers. Yeah, 303 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: and in a lot of the articles and sources we read, 304 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: many men and women with disabilities are quoted talking about 305 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: their horrific experiences with sex ed and Tim Rose is 306 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: no different. He's the founder of the Rose Center for Love, 307 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: Sex and Disability, and he was born with spastic quadriplegic 308 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: cerebral palsy. He said that his school growing up largely 309 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: denied him access to sex ed information at all, completely, 310 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: even asking him to leave the room when it was discussed, 311 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: and he brought up a point that you will see 312 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of articles about this topic. He said, 313 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: sex ed for me was mostly trial and error, a 314 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: mix of getting what information I could from friends and 315 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: from TV. And this seems to be really key you 316 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: hear a lot of people disabilities talking about like well, 317 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: it just kind of came down to watching porn or 318 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 1: watching like movies where people were having sex, or just 319 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: talking with other people with disabilities. Because there's not a 320 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: base of information for a lot of these people, they 321 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: tend to be completely ignored. And that in and of itself, 322 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: of course has consequences too. If you're not educating people 323 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: about sexuality, sexual function, and safety, whether you have a 324 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: disability or not. UM children with disabilities, for instance, are 325 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: at a much higher risk of sexual abuse. UH and 326 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: doctors screen people with disabilities for S t I, S, 327 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: certain cancers, and other reproductive health issues at much lower rates. 328 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: And I'm really hoping that we hear from some special 329 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: teachers and experts listening to this podcast, because I am 330 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 1: curious to get the first and information of what is 331 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: happening in schools. Because Caroline, my mom was a special 332 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: ed teacher. I spent a number of summers working with 333 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: UM a special ed day camp and that was mostly 334 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: run by special ed teachers, and it seemed like a 335 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: there were so few resources for them. I mean, we're 336 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: talking about public schools here, so you have that whole 337 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: factor compounding things and also the focus of I think 338 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: one argument, depending on the level of disability that we 339 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: would be talking about, there's a lot more focus on 340 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: just daily skills that I have a feeling that it 341 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: might be an issue of prioritization, where it's like, well, 342 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: we have to make sure that this person can feed 343 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: and clean themselves versus you know, sex education. But that 344 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: doesn't answer the question of why in some schools when 345 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: sex said classes happen, the special kids are then taken 346 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: out of the room. Well yeah, and then you've got 347 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: the issue too of people who have become disabled later 348 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: in life due to injury, your illness um, and that 349 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: the fact that there's even an interesting gender division in that. 350 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: So we you suffer a spinal injury, for instance, and 351 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: have to go to rehab um, the counselors and therapists 352 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: are again like quick to educate about how you take 353 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: care of yourself. Let's let's focus on learning to walk 354 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: again and how you can get around your house and 355 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: deal with daily life. And sexual education and discussions about 356 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: sexual functioning are often left out or like maybe they'll 357 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: pop in a DVD to avoid any awkward conversations, Like 358 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: here's some sex said for you. Now, yeah, I mean, 359 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: and I do want to quickly go back and clarify 360 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: in terms of talking about uh special ed classes, that 361 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to conflate physically disabled people from mentally 362 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: disabled people, but just to emphasize how like, yes, this 363 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,719 Speaker 1: is a diverse group of people who are often just 364 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: like conflated into one monolithic disabled pool. But even if 365 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: we are talking about people with mental disabilities, because of 366 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: all those issues that you talked about, Caroline in turn 367 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: terms of consent and sexual abuse and the lack of 368 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: screening for STDs and s t i s and their 369 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: existence of sexuality, that they need to be educated too. 370 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: But going back to looking at physical disability and sex education, 371 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: there's also a gendered aspect to this as well. Um 372 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: Christine Sellinger, who works at sci Canada, which works to 373 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: empower and inform healthcare professionals to answer questions about the 374 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: sort of stuff, talks about how after spinal court injuries, 375 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: men tend to inquire about their ability to get an 376 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: erection almost immediately. Yeah, it's like top of mind, It's 377 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: one of the first things they asked about, Like, yes, 378 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: I need to I wanna, you know, try to increase 379 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: my strength. I want to learn how to get around 380 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: my house, but I need to know will I have 381 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: an direction? Yeah, totally understandable. Um. Whereas though women's questions 382 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: about sexuality and vaginal functioning and all of that come 383 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: later during the rehabilitation process and tend to focus or 384 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: around the relationship aspects like whether they can just date. 385 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: So Sellinger asks like, why can't we make this part 386 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: of the initial rehab process for everybody? Right? And because 387 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: Sellinger at nineteen suffered a spinal injury, and she said 388 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: too that, you know, when she was going to rehab 389 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: and going through therapy and talking with doctors, you know, 390 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: her first concern was, I'm I'm having to say goodbye 391 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: to my life as it was. I'm having to you know, 392 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: give up many activities. My life will never be the same. 393 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: You know, sex wasn't top of mind. She's like, maybe 394 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: dating was, you know, will anyone ever want to date me? 395 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: Or being a relationship with me? But now that she 396 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: works for U s c I Canada or I believe 397 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: s c I Ontario, maybe Um, she really advocates strongly 398 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: for these questions and concerns to be part of that 399 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: initial process. But it's part of batting, whether you have 400 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: a disability or not. It's part of combating that larger 401 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: social ick factor that we have around sex and sex said, 402 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: we're also uncomfortable talking about it regardless of our abilities. Yeah, 403 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: I mean, especially especially in the United States. But we 404 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: do have some good news to share because there has 405 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: been so much disability activism that has truly radically changed 406 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: the environment, both literally and figuratively around disability in the 407 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: United States. And we're going to talk about that when 408 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break. Caroline. You 409 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: do whatever it takes to make sure your business runs efficiently, 410 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: but constant trips to the post office can get in 411 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: the way. But with stamps dot Com, you'll be able 412 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: to spend less time at the post office and more 413 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: time growing your business. 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Go to stamps dot com before you 424 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: do anything else. Click on the microphone at the top 425 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: of the homepage and type in stuff that's stamps dot com. 426 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: Enter stuff, and now back to the show. So it's 427 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: interesting to watch the trajectory of the disability rights movement, 428 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: and we want to really focus on how sexual politics 429 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: became part of that movement and part of that discussion. 430 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: But to back up a little, to give you a 431 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: little perspective, the movement really gained steam in the wake 432 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: of the World Wars. In Vietnam. You have disabled veterans 433 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: returning home, needing services, needing to be seen and heard 434 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: and recognized, but also like needing to be able to 435 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: get into a building, and so needing to be able 436 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: to get employment right exactly. And so while you did 437 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: have people with disabilities returning from World War One and 438 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: World War Two, it really wasn't until post Vietnam or 439 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: or mid Vietnam um that it really became part of 440 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: the political climate, because you already had the fight for 441 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: civil rights and women's rights going on, and so the 442 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: fight for civil rights of people with disabilities fit naturally 443 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: into that political climate. Yeah, I mean, and this is 444 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: one of those movements two of the sixties and seventies, 445 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: I think, along with gay rights that were starting to 446 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: learn more out. But I feel like we still in 447 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: our popular understanding. I don't know that much about the 448 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: disability rights movement that was happening, um. But there was 449 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: a range of organizations that were developing during this time, 450 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: including the National Center for Law and the Handicapped, the 451 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: Disability Rights Center, the American Disabled for Public Transit Group, 452 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: and the National Center for Law and the Deaf. And 453 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: keep in mind too that during this time, some of 454 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: those so called ugly laws that we talked about earlier 455 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: in the podcast, we're still in the books in certain 456 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: major cities. I mean, if they weren't, if they already 457 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: had been removed, we were still left with the stigma 458 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: of that absolutely. Um. And so then you see sexual 459 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: politics very naturally becoming a part of this movement. Advocates 460 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: challenging those tropes we discussed at the top of the 461 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: podcast by pointing out, for one, hey, listen, not all 462 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: sex is about procreation. So if I can't actually procreate, 463 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: or if I have to have sex in a different 464 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: way than what you consider normal, that should be okay. Um. 465 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: You also have advocates trying to educate people still in 466 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, trying to educate people that not 467 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: all impairments are inheritable, stop being so afraid and even 468 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: if they are. Though, a lot of communities, particularly the 469 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: Capital d Deaf community, have embraced their differences as being 470 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: part of a larger culture, and the University of California 471 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: responded around this time to student activists by founding a 472 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: Sexuality and Disabilities Center staffed with sex therapists who could 473 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: not only give advice, but also connects students with sex surrogates. 474 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 1: And sex surrogates actually gained a lot of attention a 475 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: few years ago thanks to two films, Breathing Lessons and 476 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: The Sessions, which were inspired by Marc O'Brien's encounters with 477 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: surrogate Cheryl Cohen green Um. And so a lot of 478 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: people are a little bit confused, and this is understandable 479 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: of out what a sex surrogate is versus a sex 480 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: worker in this country. And it's interesting because the legal 481 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: territory is a little murky in the US, for instance, 482 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: sex surrogates their services are neither legal nor illegal. And 483 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: as the Kinsey Institute explains, that surrogate sex partners are 484 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: trained by the International Surrogate Partner Association to address specific 485 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: sexual difficulties that a client might have, not necessarily emphasizing 486 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: genital based pleasures. So, for instance, a sex surrogate might 487 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: help expand a client's ideas of what sex is beyond 488 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: penis and vagina, which that's just like good to do 489 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: period exactly. And and they also help clients build self 490 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: awareness and skills around both physical and emotional intimacy. Really 491 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: just a small minority of the time is spent on 492 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: actual physical interaction, and surrogate partners often work with people 493 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: who don't have partners for whatever reason, in uh that 494 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: they could practice these sexual and emotional intimacy issues with. 495 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: And so it's not just that surrogate sex partners are 496 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: working with people with disabilities, They're working with a range 497 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: of clients who have really widely varying needs. Yeah, and 498 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: so this brings us to the sex worker question because 499 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: there have been some arguments more recently that sex work 500 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: should be decriminalized specifically for people who can't have sex independently, 501 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: and perhaps some have proposed those services should even be 502 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: funded by governments. Yeah. And for instance, a lot of 503 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: people cite a two thousand five Disability Now survey that 504 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: found that thirty seven point six percent of men with 505 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: disabilities and sixteen percent of women with disabilities would pay 506 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: for sex. And while that's not a majority by any stretch, 507 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: it still is a larger number than people in the 508 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: general population. And there have also been studies into motivations 509 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: for paying for sex, h for hiring sex workers that 510 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: have found, I mean not surprisingly that men with disabilities 511 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: pay for sex for reasons that go beyond just like 512 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: men needs sex. It's a thing that men need. Uh. 513 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: Sociologist Kirsty Lilliard from Sheffield University in the UK found 514 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: that men cited the reasons of, yes, gaining sexual skills 515 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: and experience, but also invigorating the body, having something to 516 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: talk with male friends about, and gaining a sense of independence. 517 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to note, and we will 518 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: note this a little bit later, that this is mostly 519 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: focusing on men, like the sex work conversation is mostly 520 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, mostly focused on men. And and maybe the 521 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: sex surrogate conversation is different. Um, I'm not you know, 522 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 1: I'm not aware of that, but it is worth noting that, like, okay, this, 523 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: this is a thing to bookmark that men are a 524 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: basis of this conversation. Well, and a lot of these 525 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: dynamics are reflective of how we perceive and assume things 526 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: about sexuality and gender in the able able bodied population 527 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, but there are a lot of people 528 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: working to make this happen. You've got Australian sex worker 529 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: Rachel Watton, who founded the group Touching Base to connect 530 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: people with disabilities to sex workers. And one's main argument 531 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: is that basically people with disabilities should have all of 532 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: the same rights that able bodied folks have and it 533 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't be some kind of all or nothing thing. And 534 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: she said, quote, for some people with disabilities, they only 535 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: have one life and to wait around for society to 536 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: say I will date someone with cerebral palsy, Well, when 537 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: you see some of my clients, their prospects of getting 538 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: a partner are limited, if not nil. Yeah, And so 539 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: she basically says, yes, society should change, should all be 540 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: more accepting, We shouldn't ignore a marginalize, er and fantilize 541 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: people with disabilities. But until society has a radical shift, 542 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: I want to be here to provide these services. UM 543 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: related services also exist in Japan. For instance, there is 544 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: a masturbation service only for men, exclusively for men, called 545 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: White Hands, And in places like Holland and Denmark, where 546 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,439 Speaker 1: there are more permissive laws around sex work, you've got 547 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: this sexual assistant model UM. Basically, social workers will ask 548 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 1: clients with disabilities whether they need help with their sexuality 549 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: or their sexual function, and they may fund visits to 550 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: sexual assistants or sex workers. And this was pioneered by 551 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: Dutch sex assistant Nina Duvries, whose clients started requesting erotic 552 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: massages in the nineties and the work basically grew from there. 553 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: You know, she doesn't have intercourse with them, but she 554 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: works with clients with dementia, people with earning difficulties. But critically, 555 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: and this is a major part of its discussion, she 556 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: will not work with people who can't give clear consent. 557 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: This is a huge concern for people in this community 558 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,959 Speaker 1: that you know, whether you're a sex worker, a politician, 559 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: someone with a disability. This is a huge part of 560 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: the conversation the issue of consent. Yeah, and and also 561 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: not everybody is buying the argument to legalize sex work 562 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: specifically for people with disabilities, but it's not necessarily because 563 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: of concerns around sex work itself, right exactly. Um, A 564 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: lot of people are concerned about issues of commodifying sex 565 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: and commodifying women's bodies. Um Alex Guinness, for instance, who's 566 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: an American disability advocate and a former dating and relationship columnist, 567 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 1: said that it also helps us ignore bigger societal issues, 568 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: those things that Rachel Watton was addressing in her quote 569 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: that we talked about earlier. Um Alex writes, it makes 570 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: it so society can check this box that men are 571 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: getting laid, so we don't have to have broader social change. 572 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: We're giving them sex through a brothel, so we don't 573 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: have to change our social attitudes around socially excluded people 574 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: with disabilities. And she says it pities and coddles us, 575 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: as if we are being given things that will assuage us, 576 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: rather than having society change around us. And that was 577 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: something echoed by a musician and TV presenter, Mixed Scarlett, 578 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: who is not a fan of this idea either. Because quote, 579 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: apparently that's the only way I'm going to lose my virginity. 580 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: And he disagrees that it's a natural right to have 581 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: sex and argues instead that all of this just distorts 582 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: people with disabilities relationships with sex, because if you set 583 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: up this system where people can people with disabilities can 584 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: go and pay for sex and it's perfectly fine and legal, 585 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: but not for anybody else exactly, Scarlett says, then this 586 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: is gonna just create this whole idea that people with 587 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: disabilities if they have had sex and you've paid for it, 588 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: and it further marginalizes, Scarlett argues, people with disabilities because 589 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: on top of the layer of oh, well you're disabled 590 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: and therefore unattractive and probably not sexual anyway, but also 591 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 1: too you frequent sex workers, right, yeah. He takes major 592 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: issue with this idea that quote, some people are too 593 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: hideous and too disabled to have sex like the rest 594 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: of us, and so they have to pay for it. 595 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: And he says, on top of that, why is it 596 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: okay to oppress women and make their bodies a commodity? 597 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: Of course, that you know, it's a whole separate discussion about, 598 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, choosing to be in sex work and having 599 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: that be an empowering thing that you choose to do. 600 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: But I mean, he has a point that there are 601 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: so many layers too. You can't just say, yeah, it's 602 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: just let's just legalized sex work, but just for this 603 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: group of people. And that's something that Jessin Nicole, writing 604 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: for Exo Jane points out. She's like, whoa, I'm totally 605 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: on board with the idea of normalizing, legalizing and making 606 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: safer sex work, But why are people with disabilities considered 607 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: like this special group who it should only be for 608 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: them if we're going to have sex work. Shouldn't people 609 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: with disabilities just be another normal client base for sex workers? Yeah? 610 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean, because she argues that quote casting disabled clients 611 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: is somehow more legitimate than other clients, does it as 612 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: service to everybody, because by doing that, it holds up 613 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: the idea of disability granting some innate nobility, as she 614 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 1: puts it, while at the same time automatically casting quote 615 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: unquote other clients in a negative like so it's still 616 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 1: mothering in other words, Yeah, well yeah, it's yeah, it's mothering. 617 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: It seems to be mothering for everyone. Yeah. I mean, 618 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: I feel like there's like no no way around that 619 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: at this point in the conversation. But the thing is 620 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: sex work aside. These kinds discussions around sexuality and sex 621 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: said and how it relates to disability are beneficial for 622 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: all of us. Yeah. So, Penny Pepper is the author 623 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: of a two thousand three book, Desires Unborn Erotic Short 624 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: Stories featuring people with disabilities. Uh points out that this 625 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: is really working too open conversations and improve communication, and 626 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: as we've talked about on the podcast before, open communication 627 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: can only be positive when it comes to sex and 628 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: relationships in general at all. Um, And she says, I 629 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: do feel I can talk about sex in an open 630 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: and relaxed way that I don't see with many non 631 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: disabled people. I think it's because we've had to confront 632 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: these issues about body image, and that's a good place 633 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: to be, um. Because she goes on to further point 634 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: out that like, look, whether you have a physical or 635 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: mental disability or not, if you don't look like a supermodel, 636 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: it's hard for a lot of us out there when 637 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: it comes to body image and sexuality. Well, I mean, 638 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: in two if we just take a kind of bird 639 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: side view of all of the different layers of discrimination, 640 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: and marginalization, you know, as it applies to sexuality, whether 641 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 1: it's on the basis of gender or ethnicity, obviously ability 642 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: in this case, or even socioeconomic status. I mean, there's 643 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: so much discomfort and also just erasure on so many 644 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: different levels too. So I think that's another reason why 645 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: these kinds of conversations are important, because it opens up 646 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: the door to more of these important conversations. Um. And 647 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: that's something that the Disabled Students Union at UC Berkeley 648 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: is really doing. They push the boundaries with super open 649 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: and human panels discussing with students and academics alike issues 650 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: around sex, love, and disability, addressing sex as a natural 651 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: part of life and sexuality as a healthy thing to explore. Yeah, 652 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: and there were actually there was actually a documentary made 653 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: about these panels that you see Berkeley, and they talked 654 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: to one young woman who said that sex was anything 655 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: she could get off on, and the quote was this 656 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: brings us back into the human race because, like you said, sex, sexuality, desire, 657 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: these are all parts of normal human existence, and advocates 658 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 1: discussions around these things are really valid for a larger 659 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 1: audience and help us to remember that sex doesn't have 660 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: to revolve around these heteronormative notions of sex equals penetration. Yeah. 661 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: I mean this is something too that we've talked about, 662 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: especially in terms of sex within lgbt Q communities, and 663 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: how we have elevated penis and vagina intercourse to be 664 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: what sex equals and how a damaging and just straight 665 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: up limiting that is as well. Yeah, and so this 666 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: idea that sex is and can be more than just penetration. 667 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: It benefits older people, It benefits women who might not 668 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: enjoy it because of either vaginal pain or because of 669 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: sexual assault related trauma, and also benefits men, for instance, 670 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: whose penises have been amputated or damaged because of cancer 671 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: and injury. And the idea then that your orogenous zones 672 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: can be all over your body. It can be your 673 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: era loads, it could be your neck and give you 674 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: behind the knees. That benefits all of us, anyone who 675 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: wants to expand their own sexual pleasure or better understand 676 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: their own sexuality period. Yeah. And so as we close 677 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: out this episode, we want to leave you with some 678 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 1: thoughts from Kirstie Lidiard, who we've sided earlier from Sheffield University, 679 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: who said disability and impairment can invigorate sexuality and disrupt 680 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: our standard norms of gender and sexuality. Disabled bodies give 681 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: us a chance to think outside of the box, outside 682 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: the vision of penetration and the Hollywood view of sex, 683 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: and that, to me, Caroline, sounds like a mighty empowered vision. Yeah, 684 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 1: that's that's the that's the sexual world I want to 685 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: live in, exactly. And so I think all of these 686 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: photo projects, photo essays, like visibility efforts on the part 687 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: of activists and advocates are so important because people with 688 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: disabilities are just as normal as anyone else and just 689 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: as big a part of life as anyone else, And 690 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: so why would we not have these conversations They do 691 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: benefit everyone. And Caroline, one thing that we didn't address 692 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: in this episode that we could probably go back and 693 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: do another podcast on our representations of people with disability 694 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: and pop culture and specifically how their sexuality is portrayed, 695 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: if at all, If at all? Yeah, because going back 696 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 1: a little bit, the first two things that come to 697 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: mind are a The Other Sister starring Juliette Lewis, where 698 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: the whole thing kind of revolves around her wanting to 699 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: have a relationship with that when she has a mental disability, 700 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: and she wants to have a relationship with a guy, 701 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: Giovanni Rivisium, who also has a mental disability, and like 702 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: all the concerns around that, which echo a lot of 703 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: what we were talking about. And then two and listeners 704 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: might have to correct me on the details of this, 705 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: But I remember watching Life Goes On when I was 706 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,760 Speaker 1: a kid, and Quirky who has down syndrome. In the show, 707 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 1: I want to say, at some point in later seasons, 708 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: he starts dating or he wants to date. So there 709 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: was that, I mean, where they were still like they 710 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: were kind of these precious representations. Yeah, exactly, if that 711 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,919 Speaker 1: makes sense. Um, But it does seem like, at least 712 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: in the past few years, we have been getting some 713 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: better representations. UM. Already Ugly comes to mind. I mean, 714 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: he's a fully formed character, he dates, he has a 715 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 1: fabulous singing voice. UM. So that seems like a step 716 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: in the right direction. You've got the real life story 717 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: too of Stephen Hawking and Jane Hawking. UM. And then 718 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: more recently, I don't even know if it's out yet, 719 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: but you've got the film adaptation of the book Me 720 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,879 Speaker 1: Before You, which is a romance between In the movie, 721 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: it's going to be Amelia Clark, also known as the 722 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: Queen of Dragons, nearest targarian from Game of Thrones who 723 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 1: falls in love with a recently paralyzed man who is 724 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: incredibly handsome and whose name is escaping me at the moment. 725 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: I think its character's name is Will Trainer. I don't 726 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:30,720 Speaker 1: know the actor's name, but so slowly getting representations in 727 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: in popular culture, but I don't know what what movies 728 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: and TV shows and characters are we missing. Yeah, I mean, 729 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,399 Speaker 1: because we are just talking off the top of our 730 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: heads right now, so you know, if this is an 731 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: episode that you would like to hear, and I think 732 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 1: that we should absolutely do it. Please send us all 733 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: of those, um all those pop cultural representations, and it 734 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: can even be beyond film and television um that come 735 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,839 Speaker 1: to mind. And I have a feeling that what we've 736 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: talked about today resonates personally with a lot of our listeners, 737 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: not just Katrina. Shout out to Katrina again for this 738 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,399 Speaker 1: fantastic episode. And we definitely want to hear from you 739 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,920 Speaker 1: on this because this is something first of all, that 740 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: Caroline and I as able bodied people, we don't have 741 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: a firsthand experience with it, and we need your help 742 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: sort of filling in all of the all the nuances 743 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 1: and experiences that um that we missed in talking about 744 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: this very very important topics. So we want to hear 745 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: from you. Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works dot com 746 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,920 Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at 747 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got 748 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay, 749 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: So I have a letter here from Brittany from our 750 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,720 Speaker 1: guesting episode and it's real funny. Brittany, I enjoyed your email. 751 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,359 Speaker 1: She says, here's a true story. I was using one 752 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: of the popular dating sites and set up a coffee 753 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: with a nice young dude. We met, talked, and instantly 754 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 1: knew there was no attraction, but we got along really well. 755 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: We talked for almost two hours. He was in the military, 756 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: very polite, and his friends had set up the stating 757 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: profile for him. He told me he was flying to 758 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: California the next day for an interview with the FBI. 759 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: We exchange phone numbers, give a buddy hug, and win 760 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: our separate ways. The next day I texted him, good 761 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: luck with your interview. He replied, thank you. I will 762 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,760 Speaker 1: let you know how it goes well. A day passes, 763 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:27,799 Speaker 1: so I jokingly sent in another text that said, Hope, 764 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: it went well. Did you already get sent on a 765 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: secret mission? Never heard from him again? Pretty sure my 766 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: name is in a file somewhere. True story. Thank you 767 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: for your excellent research and more importantly, your passion. Keep 768 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: rocking socks, and Brittany, you keep rocking socks as well. 769 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: I like to imagine that he did get sent, like 770 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: to some strange country and he's on some secret mission now, 771 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: although that sounds more CIA than FBI, but you know, yeah, 772 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: I like to imagine he was already in the FBI 773 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: and he was undercover, and it was like, I can't 774 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: text are back all of the all the ghosting narratives 775 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: and fill ins. I let's make that TV show. I've 776 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: got one here from Hope about her episode on mechanics, 777 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: and she writes, well, I don't know much about card 778 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: mechanics specifically. My first job out of college involved me 779 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,759 Speaker 1: working as an industrial maintenance supervisor and engineer. I was 780 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,760 Speaker 1: the only woman in the maintenance department of a multibillion 781 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: dollar company, and I was only on temporary assignment, I 782 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: had to win over a big group of older men 783 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: who frequently referred to women in the maintenance field being useless, weak, 784 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: and unwilling to do the dirty work to respect me 785 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: as a technical consultant and leader. After a few months 786 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 1: of getting under machines with the guys and providing them 787 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: technical training based on my larger engineering projects, we developed 788 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: some great friendships. Some of them even admitted being impressed 789 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 1: and learning something while I was there. I'm so happy 790 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: to hear about more women getting out there in this 791 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: industry because I definitely found it challenging and a little lonely. 792 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,320 Speaker 1: I'd love to see more eighties fixing machines, will hope 793 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 1: all the gold stars to you for doing that, because hey, 794 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 1: that's a really cool line of work that you are 795 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: in that my brain cannot entirely process and be. I 796 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: mean just that you have the people skills in order 797 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: to to do that, to lead that group of dudes 798 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,920 Speaker 1: is super impressive. So, folks, now I want to hear 799 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: from you. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com 800 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: is our email address and for links all of our 801 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,280 Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos 802 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,880 Speaker 1: and podcasts with our sources. So you can learn more 803 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: about people with disabilities and sexuality. Head on over to 804 00:50:34,320 --> 00:53:43,520 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told You dot com or yet for 805 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 806 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com