Speaker 1: One of the things we say at the One You
Speaker 1: Feed a lot is that there's no shortcut to lasting happiness. Right,
Speaker 1: We've got to do the work to improve our lives,
Speaker 1: but this can be really challenging to do without some support.
Speaker 1: Our lives are busy, there's a lot of things clawing
Speaker 1: at our attention, and we might have ways of working
Speaker 1: with our thoughts, emotions and behaviors that are not very
Speaker 1: good for our well being. So if you'd like help
Speaker 1: working on any or all of those things, I've got
Speaker 1: a couple of spots that have just opened up in
Speaker 1: my one on one coaching practice. You can book a
Speaker 1: free thirty minute call to talk with me, no pressure,
Speaker 1: and we get to know each other. At One You
Speaker 1: Feed dot net slash coach, darkness is actually a beautiful
Speaker 1: teacher and usually is the thing that consistently guides us to, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is where we have a wound, this is where
Speaker 1: we need to heal, and that ends up being this
Speaker 1: really positive, transformative place. Welcome to the One you Feed.
Speaker 1: Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think, ring true and yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guests on this
Speaker 1: episode is Jacqueline Suskin. She's a poet, educator, and author
Speaker 1: of many books and collections, but is perhaps best known
Speaker 1: for her project Poem Store. Jacqueline composes improvisational poetry for
Speaker 1: patrons who choose a topic in exchange for a unique verse.
Speaker 1: Poem Store has been her main occupation since two thousand
Speaker 1: nine and has taken her around the world, writing nearly
Speaker 1: forty thou spontaneous poems. On this episode, Jacqueline and Eric
Speaker 1: discuss her book Every Day as a Poem, Find Clarity,
Speaker 1: fuel relief, and see beauty in every moment. Hi, Jacqueline,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me I'm excited
Speaker 1: to discuss your latest book, which is called every Day
Speaker 1: is a poem find clarity, feel relief, and see beauty
Speaker 1: in every moment. But before we get into that, we'll start,
Speaker 1: like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandmother
Speaker 1: who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grand otter stops and she thinks
Speaker 1: about it for a second. She looks up at her
Speaker 1: grandma and she said, Grandmother, which one wins? And the
Speaker 1: grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to
Speaker 1: start off by asking you what that parable means to
Speaker 1: you in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And what I find most interesting about it. I think
Speaker 1: there's so many ways to look at the practice of
Speaker 1: feeding which wolf. You know, what choices you make as
Speaker 1: a person when you turn towards either of these wolves
Speaker 1: inside of you, and the sort of balance of you
Speaker 1: have to have, the lesson of what it feels like
Speaker 1: to feed. Maybe we'll call the bad wolf, you know,
Speaker 1: the hungry greed of the world, and how much of
Speaker 1: this society that we're living in now actually perpetuates that
Speaker 1: and asks you to feed that and kind of reflects
Speaker 1: back to you all the time, this is what you
Speaker 1: should be doing. You know. It's good to be on top,
Speaker 1: it's good to feed the desire for more. And I
Speaker 1: think as an artist, all of my work sort of
Speaker 1: trying to lean towards showing that that actually is a
Speaker 1: choice and that we have been told for so long
Speaker 1: now that we don't have a choice and that this
Speaker 1: is the only way, and so many things that are
Speaker 1: kind of in our face every day are pre prescribed
Speaker 1: for feeding this bad wolf, like this is the only
Speaker 1: way to get ahead, the only way to you know,
Speaker 1: succeed in this world is to feed this negative wolf.
Speaker 1: And the truth is it's actually the opposite of that,
Speaker 1: and that that perpetual cycle is something I love to
Speaker 1: address in my work to kind of return people back
Speaker 1: to the other wolf, this other source that also resides
Speaker 1: inside of them, and that is to you know, notice
Speaker 1: beauty and see the world in all of its magical
Speaker 1: detail and remember everything that is there for us that
Speaker 1: is the antithesis of this weight that this other wolf carries.
Speaker 1: So I love the kind of play off of here
Speaker 1: all the lessons you're taught in your life that maybe
Speaker 1: support the negative habit of feeding this awful wolf, and
Speaker 1: then here is everything else that kind of comes through artistry,
Speaker 1: as these reminders that no, you can turn back, you
Speaker 1: can make a different choice. You don't have to follow
Speaker 1: this pack. You know you can. You can make your
Speaker 1: own way, and that can be a way of beauty.
Speaker 1: I love that, and it makes me think of your
Speaker 1: poems Store, which I'm just going to describe quickly to
Speaker 1: listeners so that then I can make the point I
Speaker 1: want to make here, which is your poem Store is
Speaker 1: basically you would go out in public and just write
Speaker 1: poems for people as they would come up to you
Speaker 1: and they'd say, here's the subject I want, and you
Speaker 1: would write a poem. I think you've said you've done
Speaker 1: over forty thousand spontaneous poems this way, which is just staggering.
Speaker 1: But what caught my interest in your book is you
Speaker 1: talked about the regardless of what they came to you with.
Speaker 1: There were two things that caught my attention. One was
Speaker 1: you said, you know, just the striking similarity over and
Speaker 1: over and over and over about what us humans care about.
Speaker 1: And I think that ties to the wolf parable a
Speaker 1: little bit, in that we're all that way. But the
Speaker 1: second part, which ties more to the point you just made,
Speaker 1: is that you found as you wrote these poems for
Speaker 1: people that a natural positivity sort of emerged from them.
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's a Pollyanna thing on your part,
Speaker 1: because you you embrace darkness, but there's something about when
Speaker 1: you're channeling whatever this muse is out to other people,
Speaker 1: it naturally seems to come out, almost as if the
Speaker 1: good wolf is typing the poem. Yeah. And I like
Speaker 1: to come back to that word darkness because when I
Speaker 1: was thinking about this wolf parable and what we would
Speaker 1: talk about, I thought very carefully about not using the
Speaker 1: word dark to describe the other wolf. I was considering,
Speaker 1: that's not how I want to address this wolf, because
Speaker 1: darkness is actually a beautiful teacher and usually is the
Speaker 1: thing that consistently guides us to, oh, this is where
Speaker 1: we have a wound, this is where we need to heal,
Speaker 1: and that ends up being this really positive, transformative place.
Speaker 1: But I do think that looking at the wolf as
Speaker 1: the bad wolf, and this place of hatred and greed
Speaker 1: and fear, and that these things, you know, they can
Speaker 1: stand as either flags within us to show us where
Speaker 1: to turn. And that that's often what my poems do
Speaker 1: as they show people, oh, this is your source to
Speaker 1: pull from. Like let's say someone wants to get a
Speaker 1: poem about anxiety. I'm not going to write about the
Speaker 1: horror of anxiety only I'm going to write about how
Speaker 1: it's this flag within us that leads us to this
Speaker 1: other work of figuring out you know, what is underneath
Speaker 1: our fears? Where do these things come from? And that
Speaker 1: is the stuff of life, you know, the root of
Speaker 1: all of our pain and suffering, the root of what
Speaker 1: causes us to feel greed and what causes us to
Speaker 1: want more in this really negative way is actually, you know,
Speaker 1: the source of maybe our life's work. So that ends
Speaker 1: up being this really beutiful exploration if we can get there,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times that's I think what poetry
Speaker 1: does is it helps us get there. It helps us
Speaker 1: bridge the gap between this negative place, this relentless pain
Speaker 1: that we feel, the suffering of the world, and then
Speaker 1: move over this bridge to see, oh, this links to
Speaker 1: a greater possibility, because that's what humans have. We have
Speaker 1: this amazing possibility and potential in us to kind of
Speaker 1: expand and keep these ideas growing instead of just turning
Speaker 1: back towards the thing that hurts us. And I think
Speaker 1: that choice is kind of built into art because art
Speaker 1: asks us to make the choice. Art is what reminds
Speaker 1: us to make the choice. And so I really see
Speaker 1: that in these moments where I write people poems. It
Speaker 1: was not an intentional thing to say I'm going to
Speaker 1: go in public and sit down and write these positive
Speaker 1: poems for people, but it was just what was asked
Speaker 1: of me was to listen to their pain, to listen
Speaker 1: to their stories, to listen to the man who's committed adultery,
Speaker 1: to listen to the woman who saw has just committed suicide,
Speaker 1: to listen to all these people who are suffering and
Speaker 1: be able to see in them. Oh, this is actually
Speaker 1: your doorway to the light, Like this is your place
Speaker 1: where you get to choose the good wolf and you
Speaker 1: get to feed this And it's a choice. It's a
Speaker 1: moment where you say I'm going to either take this
Speaker 1: pain and let it be the impetus to feed this
Speaker 1: negative wolf inside of me who wants me to be
Speaker 1: full of hatred, who wants me to hate myself, or
Speaker 1: I'm going to make the choice to feed this other
Speaker 1: wolf and use my pain as kind of my fuel,
Speaker 1: as a seed for something else that will then help
Speaker 1: other people, or help even just you know, myself in
Speaker 1: my own life. Yeah, as you were saying that, it
Speaker 1: really made me think about art and my relationship to art.
Speaker 1: And there were periods in my life, really dark periods
Speaker 1: before I learned to transform the darkness into something more redemptive.
Speaker 1: Before I learned to do that, I was attracted to
Speaker 1: art that was just dark. It just showed the problems.
Speaker 1: And I've found that since I have learned. I don't
Speaker 1: mean to make it sound like I just easily transformed
Speaker 1: difficult things into easy things, that the fact that they're
Speaker 1: difficult is what makes them so rich with opportunity. But
Speaker 1: I found that since I was able to do that
Speaker 1: in certain situations in my life, my relationship to art
Speaker 1: has really changed. And I'm looking for art that has both.
Speaker 1: You know, if it only has one, if it just
Speaker 1: has like, hey, everything's great, it doesn't do anything for me.
Speaker 1: If it only has the darkness. Now, it doesn't do
Speaker 1: anything for me. It's the art that bridges the two.
Speaker 1: That is what now speaks to me and what I
Speaker 1: turned towards and want and crave. Well, that makes sense
Speaker 1: to me also in this way of as all of
Speaker 1: this art in the world, dark or light holds great
Speaker 1: meaning because it allows people to open different doors and
Speaker 1: themselves at different times. And maybe just the pure darkness
Speaker 1: represented in some artwork is just what one needs in
Speaker 1: a moment to feel seen and heard and understood. And
Speaker 1: they say, oh, that person knows the darkness just as
Speaker 1: I do, and they didn't try to transform it into
Speaker 1: something greater. But there is this alchemy in certain art,
Speaker 1: and a lot of poetry does this where it takes
Speaker 1: this macro giant feeling that we can all maybe relate
Speaker 1: to on some level and spins it into something micro.
Speaker 1: It takes it down to the smallest detail and makes
Speaker 1: it personal. And that work is really hard to do.
Speaker 1: It's an alchemy. It's a specific skill set to be
Speaker 1: able to kind of take this great, grand, universal, deep
Speaker 1: abstract feeling and bring it down and weave it into
Speaker 1: something really intricate and personal. And I think on the
Speaker 1: spectrum of dark to light. That just can go back
Speaker 1: and forth and back and forth, but all of it
Speaker 1: has such merit because wherever we're at in our own process,
Speaker 1: like wherever we find ourselves when we're standing in front
Speaker 1: of a poet on the street who wants to write
Speaker 1: a poem about us, whether it's in a celebratory eight
Speaker 1: or a state of deep grief, there's something there for us.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's the thing, is that you know,
Speaker 1: in between these two wolves is this great choice that
Speaker 1: you have to make, and that is what needs to
Speaker 1: be sort of filled up again and again, the energy
Speaker 1: it takes to make that choice. And then I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times that that's what poetry and artwork
Speaker 1: gives to us. Is that energy, is that reflection or
Speaker 1: affirmation like yes, I see you, you are there, We
Speaker 1: are the same, We are processing these horrible and amazing
Speaker 1: things all at once, and we do have the energy
Speaker 1: to continue to do that. Life is working, it's happening.
Speaker 1: And oftentimes when I write these poems for people, I
Speaker 1: can just see so clearly that all they needed was
Speaker 1: someone to reflect themselves back to them, and so the
Speaker 1: poem does that and it shows them how beautiful they are,
Speaker 1: how brave they are, how wise they are, how you know,
Speaker 1: curious they are to even be standing there in the
Speaker 1: first place, and the words kind of hold and cradle
Speaker 1: that feeling. But that feeling is really what they're looking for,
Speaker 1: and all the many ways that we can deliver that
Speaker 1: feeling to people. I think that alchemy is what kind
Speaker 1: of takes it from this like dark place to a
Speaker 1: place that is accessible and has answers or you know,
Speaker 1: just the brilliance alone isn't enough. It has to have
Speaker 1: some sort of explanation to allow people to feel welcome
Speaker 1: in it or something like that. Yeah, that's really well said.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I heard you talk about it
Speaker 1: in one of your books or I read it in
Speaker 1: an interview, but talking about this idea of holding these
Speaker 1: two opposites, you know, being able to hold in this case,
Speaker 1: we're using the terms darkness and light. We could use
Speaker 1: hundreds of different terms, but being able to hold the
Speaker 1: terrible and the wonderful, being able to have a space
Speaker 1: that does that. And I guess that's kind of to
Speaker 1: my point about the art that really sustains me and
Speaker 1: really interests me, it's that art's able to hold both
Speaker 1: those positions, And it's honestly what sustains me in spirituality
Speaker 1: and in personal develop work and everything is that it's
Speaker 1: the and between those two things. I've heard you speak
Speaker 1: well to that point. Yeah, I usually talk about a
Speaker 1: sense of awe when I'm talking about holding those things,
Speaker 1: because the word awe has fear and wonder built in.
Speaker 1: It's being in this state of reverence with fear and
Speaker 1: wonder at the same time. You know, typically we think
Speaker 1: of the sense of fear as sort of a negative
Speaker 1: or a bad thing, but then when you think of
Speaker 1: it in the context of awe, it kind of illuminates
Speaker 1: this whole other aspect of fear, which is like, yes,
Speaker 1: this is all impermanent, this will all end, this will
Speaker 1: all change and shift, and the fear can be synonymous
Speaker 1: with the wonder of it. You know, you can be
Speaker 1: afraid that it will all end, but at the same
Speaker 1: time be completely in awe of the fact that that
Speaker 1: you get to experience it at all. So I think
Speaker 1: the and is really the catch for me as well.
Speaker 1: I do think that again, coming back to what I
Speaker 1: started with with this bad wolf inside of us, is
Speaker 1: this choice we have to make between these two things
Speaker 1: it's not always up to us how powerful that choice
Speaker 1: really is, because there's so much outside force coming in
Speaker 1: through media, through advertisement, through our society telling us really
Speaker 1: to turn towards this bad wolf. And honestly, a lot
Speaker 1: of times I think it's made out that way, and
Speaker 1: it's even easier to do that. It's easier to fall
Speaker 1: into the bad wolf and just to be angry and
Speaker 1: greedy and come from a place of hate because it's reinforced.
Speaker 1: So then there are all of these artists and healers
Speaker 1: and spiritual workers and and you know, journalists and people
Speaker 1: who are trying to counterbalance that, who are trying to say, actually,
Speaker 1: like you can feed this other wolf, and you probably
Speaker 1: will be way happier if you feed this better wolf.
Speaker 1: You know, it will be better for you. That's a
Speaker 1: a strong piece of work in the world to have
Speaker 1: to consistently come up against and recognize as just people,
Speaker 1: not even artists or anyone doing this work, just singular
Speaker 1: people every day realizing how much is against us, you know,
Speaker 1: how much we're being inundated with just all these ads
Speaker 1: and constant information that kind of don't nurture this loving, caring,
Speaker 1: kind spirit. They tell us we have to have tenacity.
Speaker 1: We have to have sharp teeth. We have to bite back,
Speaker 1: we have to claw our way to the top. We
Speaker 1: have to fight for what we believe in and it's
Speaker 1: true to some extent, but it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: that way, right right, Yes, tenacity is important, but a
Speaker 1: different type. Let's talk a little bit more about all.
Speaker 1: What you were just saying about All with Wonder and
Speaker 1: Fear is really interesting. It just made me think of
Speaker 1: do you know the artist Jason is Belli's a musician.
Speaker 1: Don't You should check this out afterwards. It's a song
Speaker 1: called if We Were Vampires, and the song is all
Speaker 1: about he's describing his wife and he's saying, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not all these incredible things about you. I mean,
Speaker 1: those are important, but it's the fact that this is
Speaker 1: going to end that makes this so poignant. You know.
Speaker 1: In the line is if we were vampires and we
Speaker 1: lived forever, what would matter? You should listen to. It's
Speaker 1: a gorgeous song, but it made me think of that
Speaker 1: when you were describing the fear in all I think
Speaker 1: the other part of the fear and awe sometimes is just, yeah,
Speaker 1: the impermanence and just the sheer massiveness of everything brings
Speaker 1: on all, but it's an all that has a tinge
Speaker 1: of wonder and a twinge of fear, right because there's
Speaker 1: so much unknown built into that. You know, there's so
Speaker 1: much of the void that our human brains can hardly
Speaker 1: even begin to comprehend. And that can be terrifying because
Speaker 1: we're so built to know. We want to know. We
Speaker 1: have this driving force to create meaning and make things
Speaker 1: make sense and understand the world. But the truth is
Speaker 1: is that there's this massive unknown in front of us
Speaker 1: constantly in every situation, and that is rifying, but it's
Speaker 1: also incredible because it just leads us onward and we
Speaker 1: keep going and going and going, trying to look deeper
Speaker 1: and move the rocks aside and find the keys. And
Speaker 1: you know, that's sort of the crux of humanity is
Speaker 1: that it's this pressure for us to continue looking, but
Speaker 1: also it's amazing that we get to keep continuing to
Speaker 1: look absolutely And I want to come back to meaning,
Speaker 1: because you talk a lot about meaning, and pretty eloquently,
Speaker 1: but before we move from all I want to talk about,
Speaker 1: you say that it becomes something that if we acquaint
Speaker 1: ourselves with it, it becomes infinitely abundant and accessible. You
Speaker 1: basically say, hey, you can get better at cultivating all.
Speaker 1: And I'd love if you could share maybe a little
Speaker 1: bit of how you think we can get better at
Speaker 1: cultivating all. I thought a lot about the way that
Speaker 1: practice plays into this conversation, and how we have to
Speaker 1: practice tending to this good wolf, and we have to
Speaker 1: practice feeding the good wolf, and to be cultivating our
Speaker 1: sense of awe and wonderment in the world is part
Speaker 1: of that practice, because if you can remember to look
Speaker 1: around and find all of the things that create a
Speaker 1: sense of awe in you, which honestly can be anything.
Speaker 1: And in my book, I talk about just the practice
Speaker 1: of choosing a random object in your house and letting
Speaker 1: it provide a sense of awe and wonderment, like where
Speaker 1: did it come from? Who made it? Why did you
Speaker 1: choose it? Why is this spoon in your drawer? You know?
Speaker 1: Was it your grandmother's spoon? Was it? And everything has
Speaker 1: a story in it, even you know, the piece of
Speaker 1: paper that you're writing on at your desk that was
Speaker 1: a tree. Like the whole process that creates everything around you,
Speaker 1: from the natural world to the human made world. It's incredible.
Speaker 1: It has so much details, so much to offer, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times it's just easy for
Speaker 1: us to forget that. I decided to write that book
Speaker 1: every Day as a poem, not because I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: everyone can be a poet, but mostly because I thought, actually,
Speaker 1: the mindset of a poet is something that can be practiced. Like,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be a writer to see the
Speaker 1: world as a poet sees the world. You can just
Speaker 1: teach yourself to find all of those details in any
Speaker 1: moment that you choose to. And it really is an
Speaker 1: art of noticing. It's being the observer, it's taking stock
Speaker 1: in the magnitude of wonder that's around you all the time.
Speaker 1: But it does take practice. You have to teach yourself
Speaker 1: to return to it. You have to teach your mind
Speaker 1: to pick up on those things or you'll miss it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a few things come to mind there. Tick not Hans says,
Speaker 1: if you're a poet, when you see a book, you
Speaker 1: also see the sun, and you see the clouds and
Speaker 1: you see rain. And you know, he's basically saying interdependence, right,
Speaker 1: which you were basically saying. If you take any one
Speaker 1: thing in the universe, you basically, if you pay close
Speaker 1: attention and you think about it, you have to trace
Speaker 1: it back to everything else, and that is all inspiring.
Speaker 1: And so I love what you're saying. I love the
Speaker 1: idea of every day as a poem because I do
Speaker 1: think that what poet Tree does for me is it
Speaker 1: teaches me how to look, but by seeing how a
Speaker 1: poet is looking, it teaches me in ways to look
Speaker 1: more deeply. And that seems to be the key to
Speaker 1: opening up the beauty and all of the world, is
Speaker 1: to give it tons of attention, and it also turns
Speaker 1: out for me. And I think a big portion of
Speaker 1: what you're saying in your book is that act of
Speaker 1: paying closer attention to everything is what helps transform our
Speaker 1: inner lives, right, And then you know, you can put
Speaker 1: that into practice in really tangible ways by you make
Speaker 1: a list of the things that cause you to have
Speaker 1: a sense of awe and then keep adding to it
Speaker 1: and see how truly plentiful that is and how ongoing
Speaker 1: it can be. And I have a lot of practices
Speaker 1: that I talk about in the book that are like that.
Speaker 1: They seem really simple, and choosing these like everyday objects
Speaker 1: is actually a big part of it, because I think,
Speaker 1: you know, there's this sort of enormity that gets put
Speaker 1: upon the art of poetry and this this craft of poetry,
Speaker 1: and it's inaccessible. People don't understand it. It's not very welcoming.
Speaker 1: It's esoteric and strange, you know. But the truth is
Speaker 1: is that the heart of poetry is really simple. It's
Speaker 1: really just curiosity and observation and connecting small things to
Speaker 1: large things. So it's not saying the large abstract idea
Speaker 1: without tying it to some image that lets it be
Speaker 1: real for all of us simpletons, you know, this kind
Speaker 1: of Oh, I can actually just be the person who
Speaker 1: sees this every day all the time. I don't need
Speaker 1: to have a background in poetry in order to see
Speaker 1: the world illuminated in verse, because everything has that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Early in the book, you say, if you treat everything
Speaker 1: like a poem, then everything has a chance to be important, sacred, powerful,
Speaker 1: or revolutionary, and we all have permission to enact that
Speaker 1: kind of remarkable meaning. I'd love to use that sentence
Speaker 1: as a chance to sort of skip out to a
Speaker 1: line that you have, which is that meaning is a choice,
Speaker 1: and so let's talk about meaning, how we construct it,
Speaker 1: and what are ways to use that more poetically. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that creating meaning is actually the most impressive
Speaker 1: tool that humans have. No other animal does that. We
Speaker 1: are the animals that hold onto a rock and say
Speaker 1: this rock means this, and I've held it in these
Speaker 1: moments and it informs me in this way, and this
Speaker 1: is what it means. And so that's what it means.
Speaker 1: And then if you say it enough, then other people
Speaker 1: will probably think that that's what it means also, and
Speaker 1: then it just does mean that because everyone's sharing this meaning.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's great power in that, because
Speaker 1: then everything in your life can be meaningful. But you
Speaker 1: have to choose to assign the meaning. You have to
Speaker 1: do the work to create the meaning. It is tied
Speaker 1: to AWE because similarly like you have to choose to
Speaker 1: be in AWE, you have to choose to pay attention
Speaker 1: and notice these things and let the feeling come over you.
Speaker 1: You have to practice it, and just the same thing
Speaker 1: comes up with meaning is you have to practice making
Speaker 1: things meaning full. And a lot of times I find
Speaker 1: when I teach workshops and talk about this, people actually
Speaker 1: already do assign meaning to many things in their life.
Speaker 1: They just don't think about it. And so this is
Speaker 1: this opportunity that you get to actually think about, what,
Speaker 1: what are the meaningful things in my life? Why are
Speaker 1: they meaningful for me? How could I make them more
Speaker 1: consistently meaningful in a conscious way, and how can I
Speaker 1: pay attention to that and and just fill my life
Speaker 1: up with this sense of significance because I think that's
Speaker 1: what a lot of people are missing. And when you
Speaker 1: lose that sense of significance in your life, when you
Speaker 1: lose your sense of purpose or direction or meaning, you
Speaker 1: lose your energy to kind of keep creating this choice
Speaker 1: between the good wolf and the bad wolf. You know,
Speaker 1: if you don't continue to illuminate your life in this
Speaker 1: way like I'm talking about, in this poetic way. Sure,
Speaker 1: but just even understanding why everything you choose to pay
Speaker 1: attention to or spend your time on is actually sacred,
Speaker 1: is actually meaningful, then you kind of lose your source energy,
Speaker 1: lose your ability to care. And I see that happen
Speaker 1: so much. You know, people slip into this abstract place
Speaker 1: where they're not creating meaning, they're not revitalizing their connections
Speaker 1: to the things or people in their life, and it
Speaker 1: does take consistent work. I think the idea of offering
Speaker 1: up a book like every Day as a poem is
Speaker 1: to show, yes, I have this mentality and I have
Speaker 1: this way of being in the world that feels really magical,
Speaker 1: and my life has been this incredible journey. But I
Speaker 1: work really hard to keep my mind in this place,
Speaker 1: like I work really hard to feed the good Wolf,
Speaker 1: and I think that that work can be really beautiful
Speaker 1: and can be really poetic, and that that's sort of
Speaker 1: the point of it is that actually we get kind
Speaker 1: of bogged down with all of this healing and spiritual
Speaker 1: work and the work of feeding the good wolf and
Speaker 1: turning yourself back to that again and again. It does
Speaker 1: take energy, but it can be this really be a
Speaker 1: full poetic journey. It doesn't have to be you know,
Speaker 1: this stark hard. You know the tenacity we're talking about.
Speaker 1: You don't have to like bite your way through it.
Speaker 1: It could be more of a craft. I think we
Speaker 1: are meaning making machines. That's what the brain does. I
Speaker 1: don't think we can turn it off. It just happens.
Speaker 1: So since it's happening, becoming conscious of it is really
Speaker 1: so critical. You say that meaning is a choice. It's
Speaker 1: a fascinating process because I know I am the one
Speaker 1: who adds significance to what is otherwise meaningless. And that's
Speaker 1: really the game is like what meaning am I making
Speaker 1: without knowing it? And how do I become more conscious
Speaker 1: in doing that? You know, I'm always seeing the world
Speaker 1: through a perspective I can't not, But how can I
Speaker 1: make that process conscious and wiser? For lack of a
Speaker 1: better word, I think that's where poetry comes in, and
Speaker 1: and the practice of writing things down is you're clarifying
Speaker 1: something for yourself and not only do you clarify it,
Speaker 1: and maybe like a simple sentence or a list. I'm
Speaker 1: obviously very fond of making lists. I think that, like
Speaker 1: getting yourself clear on a piece of paper, is something
Speaker 1: that changes your life because you can just see this
Speaker 1: part of yourself written down and expressed in an explanation
Speaker 1: that you created for yourself. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: why people love poetry actually in general, because it reflects
Speaker 1: something of themselves back to them, even if they didn't
Speaker 1: write it. You know, the poem is meant for you,
Speaker 1: so you get to see yourself it and whatever you're
Speaker 1: reading that's you, whatever you're reflecting on, whatever you're enjoying
Speaker 1: in the poem, whatever moves you, that's because that's a
Speaker 1: part of you. And so I think that the act
Speaker 1: of writing these things down helps clarify yourself for yourself,
Speaker 1: and that that's such a healing thing to do. It
Speaker 1: is such a relief to be able to say, oh,
Speaker 1: these are the things that are meaningful to me, these
Speaker 1: are the ways in which I'm enacting those things in
Speaker 1: my life, and these are the things that are beautiful
Speaker 1: about that, Like, this is what makes this so unique
Speaker 1: and specific for me, and this is what connects it
Speaker 1: to the greater story of humanity. And you know, you
Speaker 1: get to see these things expressed on paper if you
Speaker 1: can kind of practice that craft of poetry, and then
Speaker 1: that just sort of solidifies it the power of language
Speaker 1: in general, you know. And poetry is such an oral
Speaker 1: tradition that then you read your words out loud and
Speaker 1: it provides this affirmation. And I hear myself read the
Speaker 1: things that I've written, and you know, I know those
Speaker 1: things beyond my own knowing, They've come somewhere else for
Speaker 1: me to be able to reflect on. And it's just
Speaker 1: this sort of great loop that happens, you know, And
Speaker 1: that happens when I read any beautiful work that I read.
Speaker 1: One of the keys to seeing the world poetically or
Speaker 1: treating every day as a poem you talk about, is
Speaker 1: remembering to concentrate on our senses. You know, I think
Speaker 1: senses are really kind of are portal to life. I mean,
Speaker 1: they are the way that we engage with so much
Speaker 1: of life. So talk about practices that help us to
Speaker 1: deepen our connection to our senses. Yeah, I really like
Speaker 1: how this conversation is actually just circling around all these
Speaker 1: things that are just inherently human, and that that's kind
Speaker 1: of the point of this is that everyone has access
Speaker 1: to this. You know, it's not some strange esoteric thing
Speaker 1: to be able to have a poetic mindset. It's actually
Speaker 1: just within everyone. And you know, from awe to meaning
Speaker 1: to your senses, like, these are all things that I
Speaker 1: actually think are kind of just inherently human. And the
Speaker 1: senses above all are great, special old tools that we
Speaker 1: get to use. And I'm always looking for things that
Speaker 1: usher people into the greater depth of whatever it is
Speaker 1: the poem is trying to offer, whether they're writing it
Speaker 1: themselves or reading it, or I'm writing it. I think
Speaker 1: I'm just always looking for that entry point and the
Speaker 1: senses are such an amazing consistent entry point because no
Speaker 1: matter what, if you try to focus on a sense,
Speaker 1: you know you'll clear your mind. You'll give yourself the
Speaker 1: ability to get grounded and say, Okay, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to look at this ridgeline and see as far as
Speaker 1: I can what's the furthest tree that I can focus on.
Speaker 1: And if I do that, I guarantee all my thoughts
Speaker 1: leave for the moment that I'm doing that, and I
Speaker 1: calm my mind and I return to the steadfast energy
Speaker 1: of life that I'm looking for. Or if I'm writing
Speaker 1: a poem and I want people to be able to
Speaker 1: find that place, I bring in some of the senses
Speaker 1: so that they can have an entry way. Because we
Speaker 1: all have these senses. So this is all something we
Speaker 1: share and it acts as this sort of portal from
Speaker 1: me to you to know, oh, that's what you're saying,
Speaker 1: and I can understand what you're saying because I can
Speaker 1: see it, I can smell it, I can taste it,
Speaker 1: I can hear it, I can touch it at whatever.
Speaker 1: And I think that we forget about our senses, and
Speaker 1: so often they're just something that we use without really
Speaker 1: thinking about it. But if we use them as sort
Speaker 1: of these bells of mindfulness. I like to think of
Speaker 1: them as, you know, just this little bell that's like here,
Speaker 1: turned to this. Now, remember that you are like fully
Speaker 1: alive and engaged in all these ways that you might
Speaker 1: forget about every day. Yeah. I mean, I think one
Speaker 1: of the most helpful practices. And you could consider it
Speaker 1: an artistic practice, you could consider it a psychological practice,
Speaker 1: you could consider it a spiritual practice. Is just this
Speaker 1: exercise I've heard referred to as grounding yourself in your senses.
Speaker 1: I used to do it when I worked in a
Speaker 1: corporate job. I did it every day walking from my
Speaker 1: car to the desk and back, which is just like,
Speaker 1: what are five things I can see? What are five
Speaker 1: things I can hear? What are five things I feel
Speaker 1: in my body? It's such a exercise that just boom,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, here I am. I love that
Speaker 1: everything that we've been talking about kind of uplifts this
Speaker 1: concept that all of these tools are there for us.
Speaker 1: They're all there for us. They've been explored and expressed
Speaker 1: in so many different ways on so many different levels
Speaker 1: of lessons and teachings and spiritually and and health wise
Speaker 1: and there's just all these tools that are out there
Speaker 1: for us. And when I wrote this book, I thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is my offering of the tools that have helped
Speaker 1: me and that I've collected over the years, Like little
Speaker 1: by little, I've pieced these things together and been able
Speaker 1: to understand, like, this is what makes me a great poet, sure,
Speaker 1: but this is also what helps me just be a
Speaker 1: healthy human being and helps me, you know, do the
Speaker 1: work that I do and be in service to others
Speaker 1: and be a happy person in the world. And I'm
Speaker 1: constantly finding myself in a position where people are asking
Speaker 1: to be reminded of the tools. They're asking to remember
Speaker 1: how do I do this? How do I get out
Speaker 1: of this? How do I stop turning towards the darkness?
Speaker 1: How do I let it blend? How do I find
Speaker 1: the balance? And I just think that that's sort of
Speaker 1: what poetry does, is it just offers up these reminders
Speaker 1: like here's another tool, like this is a beautiful thing
Speaker 1: that came from suffering. This is a beautiful thing that
Speaker 1: came from anger. And look, here's how I found the
Speaker 1: balance in the forest this one time. And I'm just
Speaker 1: another human being trying to figure out how to use
Speaker 1: the tools and remember that they exist. So poetry offers
Speaker 1: these great reminders where you can just keep tapping into
Speaker 1: it over and over again. And I think trying to
Speaker 1: help people write poetry just takes that to the next level,
Speaker 1: because once you're creating your own meaning, once you're creating
Speaker 1: your own you know, written word, then you're kind of
Speaker 1: solidifying it even deeper. You won't forget. If you do
Speaker 1: it yourself, you won't forget as easily. Yeah, my friend Chris,
Speaker 1: who's also the producer of this show, him and I
Speaker 1: have been doing this practice lately where we do shared haiku.
Speaker 1: So one of us starts, you know, the first line,
Speaker 1: five syllable text it to the other guy. The other
Speaker 1: guy then does the seven lines, and then the first
Speaker 1: person finishes the five and then the next day the
Speaker 1: other person starts it. But it has been so fun.
Speaker 1: We've created maybe thirty of these at this point. Just
Speaker 1: takes two minutes, but it's such an enjoyable thing to do,
Speaker 1: and I love doing it because it sort of engages
Speaker 1: me poetically, but it also engages me poetically with someone
Speaker 1: else and sort of this back and forth that I've
Speaker 1: really enjoyed doing it. I love that, and I also
Speaker 1: love that you said it's fun because the playfulness of
Speaker 1: exploring all of these tools and using all these tools,
Speaker 1: Like oftentimes, you know, people think of me as a
Speaker 1: very serious person because my poetry does explore very serious, traumatic,
Speaker 1: intense concepts, but I'm also a total goofball and have
Speaker 1: so much fun just playing with language. Because it's such
Speaker 1: a strange and fascinating human tool. It should be fun.
Speaker 1: It should be playful because we can only use it
Speaker 1: to a certain extent. It continues to change, but not
Speaker 1: really that much like in our lifetime language you know it,
Speaker 1: we'll see it change some, but it's really sort of
Speaker 1: like this steadfast, strange realm that doesn't really offer the
Speaker 1: most expansiveness unless you're having fun with it, and then
Speaker 1: it can because you can push the limits and you
Speaker 1: can dig into it further. And I'm always trying to
Speaker 1: remind myself to just slow down and have a good
Speaker 1: time with it, even if I'm kind of exploring something
Speaker 1: that's really hard. Yeah, And I think for me it's
Speaker 1: been really important. My artistic journey has been one of
Speaker 1: caring less about what actually gets made and investing myself
Speaker 1: in the process. Of making it absolutely. I talk about
Speaker 1: that a lot in the book, like the process is
Speaker 1: what informs you and your growth as a person. The
Speaker 1: practice is what shows you, like maybe is it hard
Speaker 1: to focus or what's difficult about writing this certain thing?
Speaker 1: But I talk a lot about out the feeling of
Speaker 1: don't be hung up on an outcome, because it's never
Speaker 1: just one thing anyway, Like it is really something to
Speaker 1: write a book and how to be published and bound
Speaker 1: and say that this is the end of this. People
Speaker 1: always ask me, how do you know when you're done
Speaker 1: writing the poem? And there are a lot of tools
Speaker 1: to help figure out that answer to that question. And
Speaker 1: I always say, like, have a good editor, because then
Speaker 1: they'll tell you when to be done. Because it's really hard.
Speaker 1: But you don't want to have to be thinking about
Speaker 1: what you're going to do with this work. I mean
Speaker 1: it will serve you without being in a solidified state
Speaker 1: at the end in a hardcover book or something like that.
Speaker 1: It will serve you just by showing up and giving
Speaker 1: it attention. Listeners have probably heard me talk about this,
Speaker 1: But there was a point in life where I thought
Speaker 1: music was what I really wanted to do. But I'm
Speaker 1: not frankly just naturally that talented at it and it
Speaker 1: just didn't go that way. So there was almost a
Speaker 1: period of unlearning for me where I had to redefine
Speaker 1: my relationship to music, and the definition was this doesn't
Speaker 1: have to turn into anything. I just rediscovered the joy
Speaker 1: of making it and that has served me infinitely. Well. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: it is one of my best and most reliable friends. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it probably helps you in so many ways. I
Speaker 1: mean it just the practice of art making is the
Speaker 1: point of art making. That is the point, and I
Speaker 1: kind of try to reiterate that throughout the book, which
Speaker 1: I'm just like, you don't have to write this down, actually,
Speaker 1: like you can have a poem in your mind and
Speaker 1: practice this however you want. I think writing things down
Speaker 1: helps because it gives you some clarity. You get to
Speaker 1: see it reflected back on the page, you get to
Speaker 1: say things out loud. It's an affirmation. Engage with that
Speaker 1: however you want, whatever it works for you, and just
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Yep. It's so funny that the minute we
Speaker 1: start creating something, there's a natural jump to is it good?
Speaker 1: Who will want it? This gets back to speaking about
Speaker 1: meaning if I can redefine the meaning that's coming up
Speaker 1: this culturally reinforced me, which is, if you make art,
Speaker 1: it has to be out there in some way. And
Speaker 1: if we can recognize, oh, that's what we're making it mean,
Speaker 1: I can make it mean something different. I can just
Speaker 1: make it be about doing it, you know. And that's
Speaker 1: why when I heard the title of your book, I
Speaker 1: was like, I've got to talk to her, because this
Speaker 1: idea of living our life poetically, I think speaks very
Speaker 1: clearly to like you said, it's these tools, tools for art,
Speaker 1: tools for healing of all different types, they're the same tools.
Speaker 1: And I loved this idea of looking at it that way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what you just said made me think of this big
Speaker 1: bad wolf concept and how we're constantly asked to feed
Speaker 1: into capitalism and create artwork that will sell and make
Speaker 1: things that will give us money and items and goods
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. The whole pressure of creating an
Speaker 1: end product that will get you fame or that will
Speaker 1: get you success. And this story that has been woven
Speaker 1: around all of that actually takes away from the heart
Speaker 1: of it, you know, takes away from the heart of
Speaker 1: most of the heart of artwork is usually storytelling or
Speaker 1: sharing some kind of you know, conceptual feeling or thought
Speaker 1: behind whatever the artwork is that you're making. And that
Speaker 1: is what humans do. We carry on our feelings and
Speaker 1: stories and ideas through these works of art. But then
Speaker 1: we've attached this huge weight of capitalism to this. And
Speaker 1: so now I've seen many artists sort of buckle under
Speaker 1: this pressure of trying to feed this nasty wolf that
Speaker 1: that's actually not the point and funny enough that will
Speaker 1: just eat you up. It will never be enough. You
Speaker 1: will never feel satisfied if you continue to kind of
Speaker 1: feed into that loop because its job is to eat
Speaker 1: you up. Actually, whereas this other wolf, it doesn't even
Speaker 1: really need that much from you. You know, this good
Speaker 1: wolf doesn't need you to consistently find a way to
Speaker 1: succeed and to have an outcome to make something that
Speaker 1: is sell bowl. It just needs you to be kind
Speaker 1: and good and to fill yourself up and to you know,
Speaker 1: find your creative expression that does that work. And that
Speaker 1: the stark difference between those things is so ironic because
Speaker 1: the truth is is that yes, you will never actually
Speaker 1: be able to feed the bad wolf enough. That's not possible.
Speaker 1: That's right, The bad Wolf is essentially insatiable in that
Speaker 1: way because whatever success you have, if you're measuring it
Speaker 1: in outward success, there's always another level. There's always someone
Speaker 1: who has more. You have a line to say, I
Speaker 1: remind myself often that being alive isn't about outcomes, and
Speaker 1: I love that sense of being alive isn't about outcomes
Speaker 1: for me. That's a large thesis of the book is
Speaker 1: I remind myself often, which is a huge part of it.
Speaker 1: Like I do the work of reminding myself often that
Speaker 1: it's not about this or that or whatever the end
Speaker 1: of the sentences, but you know, just consistently doing that work.
Speaker 1: So we talked about having you do what you do,
Speaker 1: which is spontaneously composed a poem. So just tell listeners
Speaker 1: I briefly touched on it, but talk about what the
Speaker 1: poetry store is, and just share a little bit more
Speaker 1: about it to give the context. Well, back in two
Speaker 1: thousand nine, I started typing poems spontaneously on my typewriter
Speaker 1: in public places like at street fairs and things like that.
Speaker 1: It was just an experiment. A friend of mine was
Speaker 1: doing that in San Francisco and Oakland, and he was like,
Speaker 1: you should try it. No one ever does it with
Speaker 1: me because it's really hard, and so I just purchased
Speaker 1: a typewriter, and I thought, why not. This sounds fun.
Speaker 1: And honestly, most things that I've tried in my life
Speaker 1: as an artist that have quote unquote worked and been
Speaker 1: successful are just things that I was like, this is
Speaker 1: a weird idea. I'm going to just try it. It
Speaker 1: would be an experiment. And then all these years later
Speaker 1: that was my only job to write poems for people.
Speaker 1: I could not believe how impactful this experience was. Sitting
Speaker 1: with strangers, listening to them tell me whatever subject, whatever
Speaker 1: they want the poem to be about, and then in
Speaker 1: a matter of a minute or two, I write this
Speaker 1: verse for them. And every single time I went out,
Speaker 1: people cried. There was so much in this exchange. I
Speaker 1: knew right away from the first moment that I wrote
Speaker 1: one of these poems, this is way, way, way bigger
Speaker 1: than anything I could have imagined it to be. And
Speaker 1: I dedicated myself to it because what a rare opportunity
Speaker 1: to see poetry work like that in person. You know,
Speaker 1: I know that it works like that for me when
Speaker 1: I read poems alone in my room and books from
Speaker 1: poets who I love. But what a thing to be
Speaker 1: in the position to sit and not only create in
Speaker 1: front of someone and watch this, you know, this performative
Speaker 1: aspect of it is really interesting because these people get
Speaker 1: to watch my brain work basically, and watch me create
Speaker 1: on the spot. But then I get to watch them
Speaker 1: react to being seen and heard and understood and known.
Speaker 1: And the reflection is so clear. And it's been so
Speaker 1: important for me to continue seeing, even through just writing
Speaker 1: poems for people over the internet, how important poetry really
Speaker 1: is to people. It's a conversation, is what it is.
Speaker 1: And that's what feels so special about getting someone to
Speaker 1: tell me a subject and responding to their subject matter.
Speaker 1: It kind of takes me out of the equation, like, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm the person writing it, but I actually don't know
Speaker 1: what I've written until I read it out loud. I
Speaker 1: don't think while I'm writing it. I'm not thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: what's the next word, and well, maybe I'll get this
Speaker 1: concept in there. No, it's some trance like thing happens
Speaker 1: to me and I write a poem and I read
Speaker 1: it out loud, and whoever i'm reading it too is
Speaker 1: shown a part of themselves and that that kind of
Speaker 1: conversation is just so unique and beautiful, and I did
Speaker 1: it for years. I couldn't stop doing it. It was
Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing. It was such a rare opportunity
Speaker 1: to connect with people in such a deep way in public. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so incredible, it's so amazing. So we're going to
Speaker 1: open the poem store back up here. It's open for business,
Speaker 1: and have you create a poem for us right here.
Speaker 1: I thought a little bit about this, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: what what do I want the poem to be about?
Speaker 1: And I first thought, well, you know, I'd love to
Speaker 1: have a wonderful poem to give to my partner Jinny,
Speaker 1: you know. And then I've had beans here the dog.
Speaker 1: I thought I'd love to have a poem about beans.
Speaker 1: But really the poem should probably be about the wolves.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably the appropriate thing, given that that's
Speaker 1: what we're on the show here for. So do you
Speaker 1: need any more from me? Or you've got enough? You've
Speaker 1: got our whole conversation up till now. So I don't
Speaker 1: know I got enough, And I will say that, you know,
Speaker 1: the most common subject is love. That's what people always
Speaker 1: want to palm about. But I always ask them what
Speaker 1: kind of love, and I always get them to give
Speaker 1: me all these different details because love is so specific,
Speaker 1: and I think that having it be about these wolves
Speaker 1: that will be in there. All right, love is in
Speaker 1: that story. All right, here we go. Listeners, you're going
Speaker 1: to hear her typing. That's going to be what's going
Speaker 1: to happen, m d m okay, two wolves. The center
Speaker 1: of self expands as a choice, a constant flame that
Speaker 1: requires us to turn from the weight of mind and
Speaker 1: world toward heart and light, towards gentleness and ease. Why
Speaker 1: would we struggle to feed one who will never stop eating,
Speaker 1: who doesn't fill us in return? This is not the
Speaker 1: point this answer. What matters is how we shift, how
Speaker 1: we unfurl in the direction of goodness and drink from
Speaker 1: this cup of quality, this never ending gift. Bravo. I
Speaker 1: love it. I love it. I felt a strong desire
Speaker 1: while you were doing that to a company you with music,
Speaker 1: but I didn't have anything handy, and I didn't want
Speaker 1: to interrupt the process. But I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever if you've ever taken a musician out with the
Speaker 1: poetry store. But there you go together. Yeah, yeah, absolutely well,
Speaker 1: that is a wonderful poem. We will definitely make sure
Speaker 1: to put in the show notes so that listeners can
Speaker 1: reflect upon it more deeply. You and I are going
Speaker 1: to continue talking in the post show conversation where I'm
Speaker 1: going to ask you about some of your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: You know, some of your favorite poets, some of your
Speaker 1: favorite poems. I do an episode every week called a Teaching,
Speaker 1: a Song and a Poem that I give to supporters
Speaker 1: of the show, where I pick a poem that I love. Listeners,
Speaker 1: if you'd like access to that episode the post show
Speaker 1: conversations add free episodes and all that good stuff as
Speaker 1: well as the joy of supporting something you value, you
Speaker 1: can go to One you Feed dot net slash joint. Jacqueline,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. I have really
Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation. I thank you. If what you just
Speaker 1: heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly
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