1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the desperate search for two

2
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,240
Speaker 1: Kansas moms, one of them a preacher's wife, who seemingly

3
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,080
Speaker 1: vanished into thin air on their way to pick up

4
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,680
Speaker 1: the children. Now we learn their car has been found, What,

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,079
Speaker 1: if any clues does it reveal.

6
00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,720
Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

7
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:43,880
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. I've covered a lot

8
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: of missing people cases. I can't even count them all,

9
00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 1: but it's very rare that two women, two adults disappear

10
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 1: at the same time.

11
00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 2: Think about the logistics of that. Think about some guy.

12
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 1: Coming up and saying, hey, get in my car. How's

13
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,760
Speaker 1: he going to wrangle two adult females into the car.

14
00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 2: Why it's not going to run for it? Now, it's

15
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:11,560
Speaker 2: different when.

16
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,320
Speaker 1: You think about, for instance, libbyan Abbey, the two little

17
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 1: girls that were abducted and murdered in Delphi. They were

18
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,039
Speaker 1: literally taken off of a trestle bridge in plain View

19
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,600
Speaker 1: and directed I believe, at gunpoint down the side of

20
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:28,880
Speaker 1: the hill underneath that.

21
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,120
Speaker 2: Trestle bridge, and they were murdered.

22
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: It's easier to control children or young teens, especially teens

23
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 1: that have been sheltered and don't know what to do

24
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:46,680
Speaker 1: in that situation. But two adult females, moms both of them,

25
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 1: You'd think they would.

26
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 2: Run for it or resist.

27
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 1: But as of right now, no sign of these two

28
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,360
Speaker 1: missing moms. Veronica and Jillian with me an all star

29
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now?

30
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,559
Speaker 1: But straight out to Nicole Parton, joining us climeb online

31
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Nicole, take a listen to this.

32
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 3: At six fifteen pm Saturday, Oklahoma Highway Patrol issued a

33
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 3: missing endangered alert for Butler and Kelly on behalf of

34
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,400
Speaker 3: the Texas County Sheriffs. By Sunday evening, the Oklahoma State

35
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,639
Speaker 3: Bureau of Investigation announced they would be joining the investigation

36
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,400
Speaker 3: into Butler and Kelly's quote suspicious disappearance. Authorities have remained

37
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,639
Speaker 3: tight lipped about any leads on the women's whereabouts, releasing

38
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 3: very few details in the case as we enter the

39
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,679
Speaker 3: fifth day since the women were last seen.

40
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 1: Hey, Nicole Parton, hold on just my moment, Let me

41
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 1: first go to door. Nicole Vienna joining us out of LA.

42
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 1: Doctor Nicole is a forensic psychologist who specializes in trauma

43
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 1: and you know, developmental disorders. She's the CEO of Vienna

44
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 1: Psychological Group or CV is so long, I don't have

45
00:02:58,120 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 1: time to read it all. Dr Nicole, thank you for

46
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,400
Speaker 1: with us. You know a lot of times I hear

47
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,639
Speaker 1: when a woman goes missing, somebody else say she ran

48
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 1: off with her boyfriend.

49
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:10,560
Speaker 2: What boyfriend? You think this.

50
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,320
Speaker 1: Preacher's wife is stashing a hot young boyfriend somewhere. That

51
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 1: did not happen, And it's very dismissive. I don't like

52
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,280
Speaker 1: it because it seems like here's a great example, Doctor

53
00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 1: Nicole Vienna. I don't know if you recall Stacy Peterson.

54
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: She was married to a cop, Drew Peterson. She just disappeared.

55
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 1: And all Peterson would say for months and months and

56
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 1: to this day she ran off with her boyfriend, like

57
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,240
Speaker 1: it'll be a cold day at h double l that

58
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 1: most moms would leave their children for some guy. Really,

59
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: as my grandmother would say, men are like buses. A

60
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,600
Speaker 1: new one will come along every fifteen minutes. Just wait,

61
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,480
Speaker 1: so you're gonna leave your children. But here's the kicker.

62
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,880
Speaker 1: Not one, but two moms decide they're gonna leave their

63
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:08,960
Speaker 1: children and run off. That's bs technical legal term. That

64
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: did not happen. They did not go willingly.

65
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 2: Doctor Nicole, it doesn't sound like it.

66
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 4: I suspect that there was probably fall play involved on

67
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,400
Speaker 4: one party's end or the other.

68
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good point, doctor Nicole.

69
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,960
Speaker 1: One party's end or the other again with me an

70
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 1: all star panel.

71
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,160
Speaker 2: But the first thing I like.

72
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: To do in addition to finding out about my victims,

73
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 1: because Kathleen Murphy, poor Nicole parton Nicole, I'm getting there.

74
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy is with me, high profile lawyer and joining

75
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,120
Speaker 1: us out of North Carolina. She's at Triangle Divorce Lawyers.

76
00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,040
Speaker 1: And she used to say she was in domestic law,

77
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: but that makes it sound like we're all sitting around

78
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,840
Speaker 1: the fireplace having hot chocolate. Domestic law it's, you know,

79
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,480
Speaker 1: like putting two whit cats and a barrel when you

80
00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,000
Speaker 1: go into court on a domestic like a divorce or

81
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,680
Speaker 1: a custody Kathleen, have you noticed every time sometimes a

82
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 1: teen girl or an adult female goes missing, same second verse,

83
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 1: same as a first she ran off with her boyfriend.

84
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,799
Speaker 1: But how often do you see a grown woman, not one,

85
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 1: but two of them decide to abandon their children.

86
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's very unusual to have two women who are

87
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 5: disappearing at the same time, both of them mothers. It's

88
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,279
Speaker 5: highly unlikely that they have anything on their agenda, but

89
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,679
Speaker 5: what's in the best interest of their children at that time?

90
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,600
Speaker 1: You're right, and you've seen so many custody cases where

91
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,840
Speaker 1: the moms go to the mat to hold on to

92
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,279
Speaker 1: the children and protect the children. That's what I'm saying, Nicole, Party.

93
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 1: Let's set up a timeline. Nicole's joining us some crime

94
00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,800
Speaker 1: online dot com. Nicole, what do we know about? I

95
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,279
Speaker 1: understand one of the moms was collecting her children to

96
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,720
Speaker 1: throw a birthday party for them.

97
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:56,279
Speaker 2: Let's just start at the beginning.

98
00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,479
Speaker 6: That's right. So the two women left Elkhart, Kansas on

99
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,840
Speaker 6: Saturday morning, heading to pick up Veronica's children for their

100
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,680
Speaker 6: birthday party. It was a sixteen mile trip to Eva, Oklahoma.

101
00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,600
Speaker 6: They were actually going to a place called Four Corners

102
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 6: Trading Posts.

103
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,840
Speaker 1: You got to give me a little bit more information, Nicole.

104
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,240
Speaker 1: They're leaving from where to go to?

105
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 2: Where? It's Elkhart right, Elkhart.

106
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 6: Elkhart, Kansas. Sixteen mile trip.

107
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 1: Okay, Elkhart, Kansas on Highway ninety five ish and Road L.

108
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,680
Speaker 6: They were leaving from their hometown of Elkhart, Kansas. The

109
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 6: two moms were traveling together early Saturday morning with plans

110
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,320
Speaker 6: to go a sixteen mile trip to pick up Veronica's

111
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 6: two children for a birthday party. They never made it

112
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 6: to Eva, Oklahoma, which is where they were headed Nicole Parton.

113
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,719
Speaker 1: When I was preparing to discuss the case, I learned

114
00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 1: that Elkhart is actually it's a small town. There is

115
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,440
Speaker 1: a little under two thousand people that lived there as

116
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 1: of the last census. And that's important for one reason,

117
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 1: it's a smaller suspect pool. And second, I find out

118
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,680
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on this geography. But

119
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 1: it straddles it's very close to the Kansas Oklahoma state border.

120
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 2: Is that right?

121
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 6: That's correct.

122
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 1: Now another issue is it's a little under nine miles

123
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 1: from the Kansas Colorado border.

124
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 2: Is that right?

125
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 6: Yes? It is?

126
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 2: Okay, here's the problem right there.

127
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 1: Let me go to Dan Corsantino, joining US former police

128
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,520
Speaker 1: chief also served on US Homeland Security Senior Advisory Board

129
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 1: at Dancorsatino dot com. Here's a problem with that, Dan,

130
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 1: You've got three jurisdictions involved in I don't mean three

131
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: cities in one state. I mean potentially Oklahoma, Kansas and Colorado.

132
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 1: Do you think they're talking to each other, because a

133
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,240
Speaker 1: lot of times killers, missing people slip through the cracks

134
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with cross state boundary issues.

135
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 7: Interstate absolutely, the question is the timing issue between the

136
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 7: jurisdictions and specifically the origination point, and who's going to

137
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 7: take the lead the information that's being disseminated by the

138
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 7: primary jurisdiction to the other jurisdictions and the accuracy of

139
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 7: the information they have at the origination point as it

140
00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,600
Speaker 7: evolves throughout the investigation.

141
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Sidney Sumner crime online dot com.

142
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,720
Speaker 8: Jillian Kelly, a mom of four, serves as a secretary

143
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 8: at Hugoton, Kansas, First Christian Church, where her husband, Heath Kelly,

144
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 8: is the pastor. The Kellys are planning a move to Indianola, Iowa,

145
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 8: as Heath Kelly has been called as the new pastor

146
00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 8: of Willow Christian Church. Friendships among clergy families are easily made,

147
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,320
Speaker 8: and Pastor Tim Singer of Hugoton Assembly of God introduces

148
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 8: the Kellys to mom of two for Ronica Butler. She's

149
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 8: described by friends as kind and a gardening enthusiast.

150
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,480
Speaker 1: I want you to know more about the victims why

151
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,079
Speaker 1: if you know more about the victims, the.

152
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,200
Speaker 2: Easier it will be to identify a perp.

153
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 1: If this kidnapping was not random, and yes, I think

154
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: it was a kidnapping or worse, what do.

155
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:31,440
Speaker 2: We know about them?

156
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,080
Speaker 1: I mean, back to you, Kathleen Murphy, there's a big

157
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 1: difference if you're looking for Hey, let's just say the

158
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,680
Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer victims. Many of them are prostitutes.

159
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm not judging. I don't care what they do for

160
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 1: a living. As far as I'm concerned, their life is

161
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 1: just as important as his preacher's wife life. But what

162
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying is it's easier to identify potential suspects when

163
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 1: you have a victim, as in this case, as opposed

164
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 1: to an escort. Because the escort meets so many unknown

165
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,640
Speaker 1: males every day. She's meeting people online, she's meeting people

166
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 1: out on street.

167
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:16,400
Speaker 2: It could be anybody.

168
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 1: So the fact that these two women had no connection

169
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 1: with a large grouping of males, and I'm saying males

170
00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 1: because typically males are responsible for more violent crime, that

171
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: gives us a much smaller suspect pool.

172
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,559
Speaker 2: Kathleen, and they.

173
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,720
Speaker 5: Were going to a birthday party, they were picking up

174
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,120
Speaker 5: a child. How suspect is that?

175
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 2: It's very straightforward. We do it all day long, crime

176
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 2: stories with Nancy Grace.

177
00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 1: Guys, Let's find out more about the second victim you've

178
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,679
Speaker 1: heard about. Jillian Kelly, a mother a four secretary at

179
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: the Kansas First Christian Church. Her husband, Heath Kelly, a

180
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: pastor there. We know about her. What do we know

181
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,079
Speaker 1: about Veronica Butler?

182
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:13,600
Speaker 2: Listen?

183
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,680
Speaker 9: Veronica Butler has been locked in a year's long battle

184
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 9: with her children's dad. Cole and Kendall are with paternal grandmother,

185
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,280
Speaker 9: Tiffany Adams. Butler plans to host a birthday party for

186
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,079
Speaker 9: Kendall and makes the forty five minute drive to her

187
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 9: hometown of Eva, Oklahoma to pick them up. Jillian Kelly

188
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,280
Speaker 9: rides with Butler.

189
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 1: Okay, back to you, Nicole Parton, joining US Crime Online

190
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,400
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter. Let's track it. They are driving.

191
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 1: I believe he said fifteen or sixteen miles. Why would

192
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 1: that take forty five minutes.

193
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,439
Speaker 6: It's a very rural area, yes, sixteen miles, but it's

194
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,440
Speaker 6: a very rural area. A lot of it is. It

195
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,240
Speaker 6: is ninety five Highway ninety five. But then you're in

196
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,440
Speaker 6: a very rural two lane area for a portion of

197
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,760
Speaker 6: the drive, So I imagine that slows it down a bit.

198
00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,079
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense, not on an interstate where you

199
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 1: can drive seventy five miles an hour. Right, they're in

200
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 1: a twenty five mph zone for a part of the time.

201
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 2: So they've got a forty.

202
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,160
Speaker 1: Five minute drive to go through a kid's birthday party.

203
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 1: You'd think what could go wrong? So tell me about

204
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 1: their route.

205
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 2: They were going.

206
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 10: From Elkhart to where they were going to a location

207
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:32,080
Speaker 10: called Four Corners Trading Post, which is just south of Eva, Oklahoma.

208
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 6: Four Corners Trading Post is in a very rural area

209
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 6: of Oklahoma. Honestly, there isn't much there other than this

210
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 6: trading post, which is an intersection of four roads coming together.

211
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,320
Speaker 6: There's a lot of pig farms in the area, silos,

212
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,720
Speaker 6: grain feeders, and that's about it. So that is the

213
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,240
Speaker 6: meeting location where they're picking up Veronica's children for the

214
00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 6: birthday party.

215
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, home a police

216
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:06,080
Speaker 1: desperately searching for two Kansas moms who seemingly vanish into

217
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,920
Speaker 1: thin air. They were on their way to throw a

218
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,400
Speaker 1: kid's birthday party.

219
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,320
Speaker 2: One of the mom's child.

220
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 1: One of these women an avid gardener, and one of

221
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 1: them a preacher's wife.

222
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,440
Speaker 2: Now, how do these two women.

223
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,640
Speaker 1: Just vanish on a forty five minute drive to throw

224
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: a kid's birthday party? How does that happen? We often

225
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 1: hear about one woman going missing. Oh my goodness, I

226
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,559
Speaker 1: could name a million of them right now. Molly Tibbitts

227
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: goes missing jogging. Karina Mitronto goes missing jogging. It goes

228
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 1: on and on and on. Remember Missus Fletcher, she goes

229
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,080
Speaker 1: missing in Tennessee and we find out a convicted felon

230
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 1: has taken her and killed her.

231
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,079
Speaker 2: She was out jogging. We hear that a lot.

232
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,960
Speaker 1: We hear about women leaving the mall and walking to

233
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 1: their car. Bam, they're gone. We hear about women going

234
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,880
Speaker 1: to a nightclub or a bar or a restaurant. They

235
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,600
Speaker 1: go missing, like Natalie Holloway, just boom gone. But how

236
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:18,960
Speaker 1: often do you hear about a group missing? In this

237
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: case two adult women. And again, these are not women

238
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: that are on the corner selling crack. These are not

239
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,560
Speaker 1: escorts that meet you know, any number of men doing

240
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,440
Speaker 1: their job. These are two miles on the way to

241
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 1: throw a birthday party. For a kid, So it's a

242
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,680
Speaker 1: very very unlikely scenario. Joining me right now, Special guest,

243
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 1: John Elwood, Deputy Chief at Manatee County Search and Rescue.

244
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,840
Speaker 1: You can find him at Manatee County SAAR Search and

245
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: Rescue dot org. John, thank you for being with us.

246
00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: You have looked for a lot of people. How often

247
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,320
Speaker 1: and do two adults go missing at the same time.

248
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 1: I keep saying that because it's very rare. It is

249
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 1: a conundrum and try to figure it out.

250
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,840
Speaker 11: In my experience, I've never encountered that type of scenario.

251
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 11: Usually it's one person that is missing, and in an

252
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 11: instance of a vehicle, you usually don't have what we

253
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,040
Speaker 11: refer to in the industry as a scent article, a

254
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,640
Speaker 11: piece of clothing, a hat, something that the person has worn.

255
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 11: So lots of times that kind of hampers the investigation.

256
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, I want to pick on something you

257
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 1: just said, John Elwood.

258
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,520
Speaker 2: John, you said a scent article.

259
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,480
Speaker 1: Do you believe that in this case, possibly in the vehicle,

260
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 1: the abandoned car, there was a scent vehicle Because right

261
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,320
Speaker 1: now we're trying to nail.

262
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 2: Down the facts.

263
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 1: Nobody's talking, which I also find very odd, but don't

264
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 1: you believe there would have been a scent article left

265
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,600
Speaker 1: in the car or could the dogs get sent off

266
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,240
Speaker 1: the inside of the car.

267
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,760
Speaker 11: So in most cases, especially where you were talking about,

268
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 11: they were in a rural town and the weather that

269
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,000
Speaker 11: it's still kind of cold, one would think that there

270
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,000
Speaker 11: would be you know, a sweater, a jacket, maybe a

271
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,520
Speaker 11: stocking cap. In the event that we're not able to

272
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 11: procure a scent article, we can take swabs of the

273
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 11: steering wheel, the dash, the door panel, the seats where

274
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,120
Speaker 11: the people had been sitting, and introduce that to one

275
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 11: of the canines, and then we can more or less

276
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 11: make an improvised scent article from that.

277
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 1: An improvised scent article. Wow, okay, that makes perfect sense

278
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,560
Speaker 1: to me. So in your mind, is that what they

279
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 1: should be doing right now?

280
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 11: Yes, ma'am. There's a couple options that they have. First

281
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 11: and foremost, you can use what's referred to as a

282
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,840
Speaker 11: tracking or trailing canine their scent specific, meaning that they

283
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,800
Speaker 11: would look for one particular person. So, whether you have

284
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 11: a scent article or you improvise a article, you could

285
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 11: try to see if you've got a direction of travel

286
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,120
Speaker 11: from the vehicle from the people meaning that did they

287
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 11: have some type of mechanical problem with the car, and

288
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 11: say they were in that remote area and they had

289
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 11: no cell coverage, they may have decided to start walking

290
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,119
Speaker 11: towards their destination.

291
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,720
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yes, if they had had car trouble, that's

292
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,719
Speaker 1: a really good point. And from what I'm understanding, Coleparton,

293
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,399
Speaker 1: the car was found abandoned about three miles and the

294
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,640
Speaker 1: destination explained.

295
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:29,200
Speaker 2: That's right.

296
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 6: The car was found three miles short of the destination, again,

297
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 6: very rural area on Highway ninety five, close to Road L.

298
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,480
Speaker 6: The car was found around ten thirty am, so that's

299
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 6: about an hour and a half after the ladies had

300
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 6: left to go pick up the children.

301
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 1: You know, I find it interesting that law enforcement is

302
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 1: saying they find their disappearance suspicious.

303
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 2: Okay, we know that.

304
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,399
Speaker 1: I guarantee the families of these two women have told them, Wow,

305
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,119
Speaker 1: this is the I need to know a little bit more.

306
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 1: They're also saying at risk. That tells me they also

307
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 1: don't think these two women wandered off on their own.

308
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of like girls getaways? I doubt

309
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,719
Speaker 1: you have those, Nicole Parton, because you actually have ten children,

310
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,400
Speaker 1: one zero ten children.

311
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 2: Not a lot of getaways for you.

312
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 1: But I hear about other women having weekend get togethers

313
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 1: and girls' weekends. That is not what happened here, some

314
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 1: impromptu alone time.

315
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 2: Let's talk about.

316
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,160
Speaker 1: The vehicle, because to me, that's the biggest other than

317
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: who they may know in their lives that may wish

318
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,919
Speaker 1: to do them harm. And that could be an ex.

319
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,199
Speaker 1: It could be a husband, it could be a boyfriend.

320
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 1: It could be as I said, an ex boyfriend or husband.

321
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,159
Speaker 1: It could be the delivery boy. It could be the

322
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: guy at the grocery store. It could be a coworker.

323
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 1: So I'm not limiting this to intimate partners. Anybody in

324
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,359
Speaker 1: their sphere is the first person you look at, and

325
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: then you go out like neighbors, neighbors, the next neighborhood,

326
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 1: over people that they may have worked with in the past.

327
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 1: You start looking out, and of course you look for men.

328
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,119
Speaker 1: I promise you a woman did not hold them at

329
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: gunpoint and make them leave their car. Biggest clue other

330
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 1: than their pool of people around them, their inner circle.

331
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 2: You look at that car.

332
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 1: I want to hear everything you know, Nicole Parton about

333
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: this car found abandoned.

334
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 6: We know that the car was a small blue SUV

335
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 6: that the car belonged to Veronica. I spoke to an

336
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 6: eyewitness last night who says that she was traveling on

337
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 6: that same road and passed by and saw the abandoned car.

338
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 6: Her story is that at least one of the windows

339
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 6: were smashed was broken on that car. Now police have

340
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 6: not confirmed that, but the eyewitness said that she saw

341
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 6: a window smashed on the car. She also says that

342
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 6: she made a nine to one one call to report

343
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 6: this abandoned car on the side of the road in

344
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:12,359
Speaker 6: this rural area.

345
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 2: We know that local.

346
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,400
Speaker 6: Authorities came out and within hours the local authorities had

347
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 6: contacted the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and asked for assistance.

348
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 6: Their latest statement about the car says that based on

349
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 6: information obtained from the victim's vehicle, investigators believe they have

350
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 6: evidence of foul play all of this surrounding the found car.

351
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 1: Time is sticking by, and we all know the reality

352
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: of missing people, the likelihood of them being alive after

353
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: the first seventy two hours is very low. Please act,

354
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 1: we are looking for the victims of a double disappearance,

355
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 1: which is extremely rare to two young mothers on the

356
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 1: way to throw a kid's birthday party vanish just three

357
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: miles before their destination. If you have information one eight

358
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: hundred five two two eight zero one seven one eight

359
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 1: hundred five to two two eight zero one seven you

360
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 1: think that because you're a citizen sleuth, you could be

361
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: wrong or it doesn't matter. Let me remind you about

362
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: the citizen sleuth that realized she had spotted the van

363
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 1: of Gabby Petito. We now know did, but we would

364
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: never have found her remains. We wouldn't know what had

365
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: happened to her if it.

366
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 2: Had not been for Red Blue.

367
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 1: And Methane I believe was their handle online. They spotted

368
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 1: Gabby Betito's for transit. They had heard about the story.

369
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: They immediately called it him. You know where Gabby's remains

370
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: were in dispersed camping way out west.

371
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:00,479
Speaker 2: What is disperse camping?

372
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: That means there's no porta potty, there's no hookup, there's

373
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: no parking area or street lights. You're out there with

374
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: the coyotes and the rabbits and all the creatures that

375
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: live in the wild West.

376
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,640
Speaker 2: That's where she was what was left of her.

377
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 1: If had not been for a citizen jumping in, we

378
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 1: may not know what happened to Gabby, But back to this.

379
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: Case, two missing moms.

380
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,239
Speaker 1: Straight back out to Nicole parton Crime Online dot Com

381
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Nicole, I want to hear everything you just

382
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: told us plus more because our biggest clue right now

383
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: is that abandoned blue suv.

384
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: We think a Toyota or a Kia.

385
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: Find it really interesting, Ellie, law enforcement has not put

386
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 1: that out there. Maybe someone saw something at a red

387
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: light or a gas station.

388
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: I don't know.

389
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,239
Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't, but maybe they did. I find that

390
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: really interesting. Was the car running? Were the doors locked?

391
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: Were the women's cell phones in the car? Were their

392
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: pocketbooks in the car? Was the birthday cake in the car?

393
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: Was it on the right side of the road. Was

394
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: it pulled off the road? Was the hood up showing

395
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: distress that something's wrong with the engine. All of these

396
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: questions and more I need answered. But I'm not getting

397
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: the information from the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation at all.

398
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: I find that.

399
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: Curious, and it leads me to wonder, because I've never

400
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: had a problem with Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation. Ever, why

401
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: are they not releasing it? What do they know that

402
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 1: we don't know back to the car, can you answer

403
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: any of those questions in cole party.

404
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 6: We do know that it was parked on the right

405
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 6: side of the road, so as they were driving, the

406
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 6: car was just pulled over on the side of the road. Again,

407
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 6: we know it was three miles from this four Corners

408
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 6: Trading Post, which is the location where they were to

409
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 6: meet the grandmother and pick up the children. I am

410
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 6: being told by a witness that the hood was not up,

411
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 6: There was no signs of car trouble. There was no

412
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 6: one seen walking around the car as if trying to

413
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 6: put gas in a car or figure out what's wrong

414
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 6: with the car. A witness did say, according to them

415
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 6: that they saw at least one window smashed out of

416
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 6: that car. Those are things that we know. I'm also

417
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 6: being told that the last cell phone ping from the ladies,

418
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 6: the two mom's phones, were from that location where the

419
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 6: car was found. Other than that, we're not being told

420
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 6: what was inside the car, personal belongings. We're not being

421
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 6: told if they were in the car.

422
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: Now, one thing I've learned Nicole Parton and again, we're

423
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: trying to put together the pieces, and we don't have

424
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: all the pieces of the puzzle. Yet, that's why it's

425
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: not making sense to us. Another thing I learned is

426
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: that police let it slip that there was something found

427
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: in the car that convinced them of foul play.

428
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 2: Do you know what it was?

429
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 6: I don't know. I do know that within hours of

430
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 6: the car being found by local authorities, they did reach

431
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 6: out to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation within hours

432
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 6: and said we need help on this case. And again

433
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 6: in their latest statement, they said that based on information

434
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 6: obtained from the victim's vehicle, that's the wording they used.

435
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 6: Investigators believe there is evidence of foul play. They aren't

436
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 6: telling us what that evidence is, but something that they

437
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 6: found in the vehicle leads them to believe something very

438
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 6: bad happened.

439
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: Okay, there's one positive thing out of all that, John Elwood,

440
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: Deputy Chief Manitee County Search and Rescue, is that they

441
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: are calling the women victims. They're not buying into the

442
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: same old story they're off with their boyfriend, or they

443
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: wanted a girl's getaway.

444
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: Bs so interesting.

445
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: They find something in that vehicle that convinces them a

446
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: foul plate. Was it blood? Was it one of the

447
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: ladies or both of the ladies clothing? Was a cell

448
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: phone cracked? I know the window was broken. So everybody

449
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: on the panel, we're not having high ta at windsor castle.

450
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: Jump in if you have an idea, any idea. We're

451
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 1: brainstorming here. Was it a bullet, Nancy?

452
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 5: Did somebody shoot the vehicle to get them to stop?

453
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: That's a really good question because we know the window,

454
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: one of the windows.

455
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: Was busted out.

456
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: Hey, Nicole Parton, was it a driver's window passenger front? Back?

457
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 6: The windness said that she didn't stop, she kept driving,

458
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 6: So it was we would have been on the driver's side,

459
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 6: either the front or the back window, but it was

460
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 6: on the driver's side because she could easily see the

461
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 6: broken window.

462
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: Okay, that told me a lot right there. So it

463
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: is on the driver's side. It could easily have benefits

464
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: a two lane. The only way to pass the car

465
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: on a two lane is on the driver's side. You're right,

466
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy. Wasn't a bullet? Is Was that why the

467
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: glass was smashed out? Guys, we're brainstorming here. We're thinking,

468
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: we're using the only tools. We've got a little bit

469
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: of information and a brain trust of all of these

470
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: guests again the tip line eight hundred and five to

471
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 1: two two eight zero one seven. With every minute that

472
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: ticks by, there is less likelihood of a positive outcome

473
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: in finding these two missing moms. Back to you, John Elwood,

474
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: I just learned a lot from Nicole Parton and especially

475
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: from the witness she managed to track down. There was

476
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: no indication of car trouble. You know, when a lot

477
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: of people went out again, they'll open up their gas

478
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: valve and you can see that it's open, or they'll

479
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: stick a rag in it, and you know they ran

480
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: out of gas. And hey, Nicole, do you know when

481
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: she saw the vehicle, as it relates to when the

482
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: women went missing, when did she see the vehicle?

483
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 6: She saw the vehicle shortly after ten am. She couldn't

484
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 6: remember the exact time, but piecing it together, she was

485
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 6: saying somewhere between like ten ten and ten twenty in

486
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 6: that timeframe.

487
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: On March thirtieth. On March thirtieth, correct, So is that

488
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: in the morning?

489
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 2: Did you say in the morning?

490
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 6: And we were being told by the police that they

491
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 6: found the car at ten thirty am, so they were

492
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 6: on the scene within minutes of her seeing the vehicle.

493
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: And question Nicole parton what time did the mom set

494
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: out for the birthday party.

495
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 6: We're being told they left around nine am.

496
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: Oh, my stars, Dan Corsentino, that is a very tight timeline.

497
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: They leave, Hey and Nicole. There's not a time change,

498
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: is there?

499
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: In one hour?

500
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: Ding Corsantino, it's over. They leave around nine ish to

501
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: go for a forty five minute drive to throw the

502
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: kid's birthday party.

503
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: By ten o'clock, their car is pulled off the road.

504
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: We know there wasn't a car crash.

505
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: We don't think they ran out of gas, they didn't

506
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: have engine trouble. The window was smashed on the driver's side,

507
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: and they're gone. That all happened in less than one hour.

508
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 12: Dan, absolutely, And there's a number of, as you said

509
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 12: so eloquently, pieces of the puzzle. One of the questions

510
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 12: that services is was this a car dumped? Possibly the

511
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 12: crime alleged crime took place prior to and the suspect

512
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 12: wanted to get rid of the vehicle and dumped it.

513
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 12: The second option is car jacket, and the car jacket

514
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 12: could have taken place at any time in that one

515
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 12: hour time period. You know, we mentioned who would be

516
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 12: a suspect at one time. We'll talk about that later,

517
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 12: but we know these two women were low rist victims,

518
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 12: and these two women that were friends would have done

519
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 12: everything they could, I believe to try and protect themselves

520
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 12: from the threat that came to them.

521
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

522
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: Straight out to John Elwood Manage County Search and Rescue.

523
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: Go ahead, John, Nancy.

524
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 11: The new information being revealed about the broken window on

525
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 11: the driver's side of the vehicle could provide a valuable clue.

526
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 11: When glass breaks, especially you figure they're driving at speed,

527
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 11: it may fly into the person's face, cutting them. One

528
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 11: way you could find out if a person was injured

529
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 11: is by the use of a human remains detection canine.

530
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 11: That those dogs are trained to alert on the most

531
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 11: microscopic amounts of blood. It may not be visible to

532
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 11: the naked eye, but the dog would be able to

533
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 11: smell that and then show an alert. And then that

534
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 11: gives you another piece of the puzzle if the person

535
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 11: or person's were injured.

536
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: Wow, good point, guys, there is another piece of the

537
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: puzzle we must address. Take a listen to Sidney Sumner

538
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: Crime Online.

539
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 8: Butler's co parenting relationship with her ex wrangler Rickman breaks

540
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 8: down in twenty nineteen and custody arrangement shift dramatically. Most recently,

541
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 8: Butler's two children are mainly in the care of their

542
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 8: paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams, due to Rickman losing interest in

543
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 8: his parenting responsibilities. Rickman is also in the midst of

544
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 8: several legal issues. He was charged with two counts of

545
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 8: domestic asas and battery in late February. Despite those charges

546
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 8: being dismissed. Rickman was last in court March seventh in

547
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 8: regards to a fellon in possession of a weapon conviction.

548
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 8: He was expected to report for impatient rehab in Oklahoma

549
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 8: City on March twenty second for six months of treatment,

550
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 8: possibly ruling him out as a suspect in Butler and

551
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 8: Kelly's disappearance.

552
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: Good Lord in Heaven, straight out to you, Kathleen Murphy,

553
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: a veteran trial lawyer in domestic relations.

554
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: That was a mouthful from Sidney sun Er. Did you

555
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: hear all that?

556
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: All that as it relates to Veronica Butler A twenty

557
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: seven X. The X is nothing but trouble, Ladies. If

558
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: you're listening, there's a lot.

559
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: Of men out there. Don't pick one.

560
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: Out of all the men that has a rap sheet,

561
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: just trust me on that.

562
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: Back to you, Kathleen Murphy, did you hear this?

563
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: The first The one that got my attention the most

564
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: is Fellon in possession of a firearm.

565
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: That means he's already a convicted felon. Then he has

566
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: a gun. He's not supposed to have a gun.

567
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: Again, he has not been named a person of interest

568
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: or a suspect. However, we also have learned he was

569
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: expected to report for rehab on March twenty two for

570
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: six months. He could be ruled out just based on this,

571
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: So okay, all that in mine way in Kathleen.

572
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I heard that he is in rehab for six months.

573
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 5: I also read that there are other family members on

574
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 5: the father's side that may have an interest in stopping

575
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 5: some of this visitation.

576
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, Kathleen Murphy, let's look at what

577
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: we know. Nicole Parton.

578
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: This was an arranged birthday party. The moms were having

579
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: to drive forty five minutes to get there. They were

580
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: supposed to meet up with the grandma and the children

581
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: for the pickup at the trading post at four Corners

582
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: Trading Post.

583
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: So this was arranged. Who knew they were going.

584
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: There, who would have possibly intercepted them? Or was this

585
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: just some random carjacking or a random attack by some

586
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: other creepy dude that we don't know.

587
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: That's less likely, but entirely possible.

588
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: Nicole, tell me about the setup for the birthday party

589
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: and would you really take not only the mom and

590
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: the friend.

591
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 6: What we know is that a court order had been

592
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 6: signed by a judge and family Court saying that Veronica

593
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 6: could have supervised visits with the children. Those were arranged

594
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 6: by a judge and Veronica was to travel to this

595
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 6: four Corners trading post that was the legal required meeting

596
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 6: spot for the pickup of the children. We know that

597
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 6: the grandmother was allowed to be there, the grandmother's living

598
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 6: boyfriend was allowed to be there, Veronica, and Veronica's friend

599
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 6: Jillian is also named in this court document saying that

600
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 6: Veronica's friend Jillian is to be there for these supervised visits.

601
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 6: So all of those individuals knew about the meeting place.

602
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 6: Whether they had told other friends and family members, we

603
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 6: don't know, but there is legal document documentation in family

604
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 6: court that this was ordered by a judge. This meeting

605
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 6: place on these on this date with these people. Involved.

606
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: Let me ask you something.

607
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: The grandma was supposed to meet them at four corners

608
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: trading post. Is that the paternal grandma or the maternal grandma.

609
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: Is it Veronica's grandma?

610
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 6: It is the paternal It is the father's mother, the

611
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 6: father of the children, his mother.

612
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 2: Two missing moms straight out to Kathleen Murphy.

613
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 5: What Kathleen and somebody has a rap sheet that there

614
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 5: are sex abuse, sex abuse allegation is made and supervised visitation.

615
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 5: I don't understand why the meeting place was not at

616
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 5: a police officer station or a police department or more

617
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 5: public than this four corners crossroad.

618
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 6: That's concerning to me.

619
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: Dodg Nicole, Vienna joining US forensic psychologist and CEO of

620
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: Vienna Psychological Group Dodgor Nicole way in Well.

621
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: I think the custody issue brings up an interesting point

622
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 4: to this whole story, because we know that custody arrangements

623
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 4: are generally prone to conflict, right, and that's partly because

624
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 4: of the high emotions that are involved behind there. The

625
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 4: children are usually the last tie between the parents, and

626
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 4: so when we see things like prior sexual abuse allegations

627
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 4: in the background, we're going to suspect, you know, danger

628
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 4: one party's going to be upset with the other and

629
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 4: they're going to maybe act in ways that aren't well

630
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 4: thought out, reckless and pulsive. And we do know that

631
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 4: the ex spouse does have a history of substance abuse. He's,

632
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 4: like you mentioned, he is a fella, carries a gun.

633
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 4: We know that there was a foul play with the car,

634
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 4: So tying it all together, it kind of makes you

635
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 4: wonder if the X was concerned for his children, not

636
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 4: thinking very clearly and you know, maybe waiting and looking

637
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 4: for you know, Mom and Fred to come by, and something,

638
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 4: you know, just terrible happened. So I really suspect that this,

639
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 4: you know, is due to this custody dispute and the

640
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 4: high emotions that are involved and the impulsivity that goes

641
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 4: along with people that are involved in these disputes.

642
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: And of course, John Elwood, Deputy Chief Manity County Search

643
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: and Rescue, if it looks.

644
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 2: Like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,

645
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: it is a duck.

646
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: However, before we throw all the blame on the X,

647
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure about that. This needs a lot

648
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: more investigation because if he was in rehab at the

649
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: time this went down.

650
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: It's not him, But I agree with doctor Nicole.

651
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: That's the first place you look, but John, that's always

652
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: the first place you look is at the X.

653
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 11: Yes, ma'am. You usually have the list of potential suspects,

654
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 11: so to speak, or persons of interest. The fact that

655
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 11: if they did determine the window was indeed shot out

656
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 11: and the former spouse had firearm possessions of a felon.

657
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 11: You know, they can also use dogs are trained to

658
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 11: do many different tasks. You could bring in a firearms

659
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 11: canine that can check for gun residue. You can check

660
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 11: for the presence of a firearm, and then you know

661
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 11: the wax paraffin test that you can use to check

662
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 11: to see if somebody has gunshot residue on their hands

663
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 11: or clothing. So I'm sure that there's a lot of

664
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 11: pieces that the police and the investigating agencies haven't released

665
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 11: that would bring more clarity to the situation.

666
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: Veronica Butler aged twenty seven, and Jilly and Kelly in

667
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: her thirties. They're not the only victims between them, they

668
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: have six children. And my experience prosecuting major felonies, investigating

669
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: and reporting on them my entire career. There's no replacement

670
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: for your mother. Six children between them wondering where's Mom.

671
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 1: Won't you help us tipline eight hundred five two two

672
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: eight zero one seven. There's still time to bring them

673
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: home alive. Let's stop and remember American hero Deputy Sheriff

674
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: Jeremy Malone shot in the line of duty Beaumont, Michigan.

675
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone leaves behind beautiful wife Hillary and

676
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: three daughters, Abby, Olivia, and Brooklyn, now serving a life

677
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: sentence without their dad.

678
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: We remember American hero Deputy Sheriff Jeremy Malone. Nancy Grace

679
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend,