1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. Alex Gibney is an old school 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: truth teller. Watching one of his documentaries focused on strong characters, 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: there's a propulsive set of facts that expose malfeasance or 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: utter incompetence. Often the victim is the little guy or 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: our highest ideals like democracy. No matter the topic, Gibney's 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: films are always a fascinating, intense, and enlightening ride. Gibney's 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: most recent film, The Crime of the Century, which he wrote, directed, produced, 9 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: and narrated for HBO, tells the origin story about the 10 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: heart of the opioid crisis poisoning our nation. Big Farmers 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: celebrated its marketing muscle, using parties to lure doctors to 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: write scripts. This was a new drug cartel. There were 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: drug deal was wearing suits and lab coats. Basically, here's 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: some moneys. Yes, I'm looking at this, and I'm gone, 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: clearly we're breaking the law. Alex Gibney has made more 16 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: than thirty films in the last twenty years. In two 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, he won the Academy Award for Best 18 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: Documentary Feature for Taxi to The Dark Side, his film 19 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: on the CIA's use of torture, whether he's taking on 20 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: scientology or Russian interference in our elections, or iconic figures 21 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: like Steve Jobs, Lance Armstrong and Frank Sinatra, give Meey 22 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: never flinches and his stories stand up. In fact, he 23 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: can't think of a time when he wanted to reissue 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: one of his docs to make a correction. I can't 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: think of a time when it did happen. And I 26 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: think about that a lot, because I try to find 27 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: a moment in time where it feels like we're absolutely right, 28 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes, you know, I'm afraid that things may come 29 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: out that would cause me to want to redo it. 30 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: But I I sort of feel like the films represent 31 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: a certain wisdom at a moment in time, and it's 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: it's best to leave them. I am kind of following 33 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: up in a film I did and doing another film 34 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: to kind of dig a little bit deeper the film 35 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,119 Speaker 1: I did, a Taxi to the Dark Side. I'm doing 36 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: a kind of follow up to it. But I've never 37 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: been motivated to really go back in it's it seems 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: like such a painful process. But I usually do think about, 39 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: like if I'm going to end this film here? Why 40 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: are we ending it here? And will it stand the 41 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: test of time? When the film is over, do you 42 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: ever privately follow up about certain aspects of it? Does 43 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: you're caring? Does your curiosity? Does your concern end when 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the film is distributed? No, the ghosts of all my 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: films tend to follow me, and I often keep in 46 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: touch with sources and interview subjects, and in odd ways, 47 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: they keep coming back two films I make henceforth, so 48 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: they kind of reverberate. It's it's a little bit like 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: that moment in in Ghostbusters where they say, don't cross 50 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: the streams. My streams are constantly getting crossed. It seems 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: like characters from one film are intruding into another. They 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: all stay with me, which becomes a little bit vexing. 53 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's hard to keep them straight. In your career, 54 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: your fabulous career, You've made thirty films or so in 55 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: the last twenty years, one an Oscar. But of course 56 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: documentary films have become content for streamers and major major broadcasters. 57 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: What are your observations about that change during your career. 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: What was it like in the beginning, Well, in the 59 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: beginning was terrible. My wife used to tell me, I 60 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: want you to go out and get a job, and 61 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: whatever you do, don't mention that you're interested in documentaries, 62 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: because they'll kick you right out the door. So I 63 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: had to be very cautious. And then there was that 64 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: terrible era of cable television where every channel had to 65 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: be branded, which meant if you were clicking through channels, 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: as soon as you got to a channel, it had 67 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: to look like it was the street channel or whatever, 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: and which meant that as a creator, you were just 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: cranking out sausages. It was the worst possible thing. But 70 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: then I discovered, particularly for political documentaries, there was a 71 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: moment where theatrical films could say things that we're pretty 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: potent so long as you made them entertaining. And that 73 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: was a huge revelation which changed everything. And because suddenly 74 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: you weren't operating in a commercial environment where it was 75 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: the least common denominator and basically we were trying to 76 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: sell audiences to advertisers. People were buying the content, that 77 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: is to say, they go to a movie because they 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: wanted to see the movie, not because they wanted to 79 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: buy soap. So that was great, and I think that's 80 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: what helped to explode the moment that we're in now. 81 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: My only concern about streaming environment is the extent to 82 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: which some of the streamers began to start relying too 83 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: much on their algorithms so that they come to you 84 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: and say, well, our algorithm says that at you know, 85 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: minute thirty two, you should really be changing the narrative 86 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: to this so that we'll keep our viewers. We're hearing 87 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of that, and that to be a nightmarish. 88 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: Is that a contractual thing for you? You're an Academy 89 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: Award winning documentary filmmaker. Is it understood that you have 90 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: final cut or is that all boiler plate in a contract? No? 91 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean I I, generally speaking have final cut. Their 92 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: very few instances where I don't have final cut. But 93 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: there are some and and particularly some of the films 94 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 1: that I produce where I'm not directing them per se. 95 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: That's where we're hearing a little bit more of these notes, 96 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: because I mean, in addition to what I do, I 97 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: have a company that does a lot of other stuff, 98 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: and you get a lot of these notes that refer 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: to to algorithms, and it becomes a scary process. I mean, 100 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: even the studios trying to make it a science, but 101 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: it's never been a science. It's always been they try 102 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: to widgetize something creative, and that's that's impossible. Well, as 103 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: I often say, all of their algorithms and all of 104 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: their research and so forth is to achieve the lingering 105 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: fantasy of the risk free entertainment product. And I often 106 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: say to them, the pursuit of the risk free entertainment 107 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: product is absurd. I mean, there's no such thing absurd. 108 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: You know, we can only rely on our instincts and 109 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: the instincts that got us where we are now. When 110 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: you talk about your company and you talk about what 111 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: you're producing and not producing, I want you to explain 112 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: what's the difference between an executive producer and a producer. 113 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: There's a couple of different types of producers. How do 114 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: you function as a producer in your company's work. On 115 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: the projects where I'm named as a producer or an 116 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: executive producer, I generally have a creative role, and sometimes 117 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: it has to do with raising the money, but often 118 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: it has to do with having some say or guidance 119 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: in terms of the overall creative direction. Though you know, 120 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: we try very hard to empower our directors to do 121 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: films the way they want to do them. But sometimes 122 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: on a series in particular, where you're coalescing around something 123 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: like I did a series for Netflix for a couple 124 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: of years called Dirty Money, which I was very proud of. 125 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: It's all about corporate malfeasance, and you know, we purposefully 126 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: engaged directors to do things their own way. That said, 127 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, it came out of my experience on en Ron, 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: which was one where you invest in the wild criminality 129 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: of the purpose and it's a kind of colorful, kind 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: of heist like vibe that you engage in. So as 131 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: executive producer, I'm trying to encourage the directors to lean 132 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: into that kind of thing without being overbearing about it. 133 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: So sometimes I'm the beard and sometimes, uh, sometimes I 134 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: come come out a little stronger than that. You now 135 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: have what like a hundred or a hundred and twenty 136 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: people working at Jigsaw. So the company itself, that is 137 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: to say, permanent employees as fairly small. It's like fourteen 138 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: or fifteen people, but at times we can have as 139 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: many as two hundred people working in the in the 140 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: space on various projects. So that's where things get pretty daunting. 141 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: Are you ever sitting in your office screaming into a 142 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 1: cushion or you're gonna cry and you're telling your staff 143 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: please don't bring me any more projects to do, because 144 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: there's the fear you're gonna become the Jeff Coon's of 145 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: documentary filmmaking, where like you're running from room to room 146 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: and going yes, no, change this brightenness. Yeah, well, I 147 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: really try. I mean, that would be the stereotype. And 148 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: I do scream into my pillow, but usually not because 149 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, if if I can get projects 150 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: made great, But I purposely tell you know, the other 151 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: executives at the company, there are many projects here I 152 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: don't want to be involved in, not because they're bad projects, 153 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: but because it's important that they run themselves, because otherwise 154 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: I get spread too thin, and who needs that. Then 155 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: it becomes a kind of proxy system. The whole idea 156 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: is to create a company that will run of itself 157 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: and last long after I've left the field. Well, when 158 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: you talked before about these streamers and their algorithms, what 159 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: I found with some of the even in the podcast world, 160 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: what they're basically saying is we need eight episodes because 161 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: we don't get into the grave until episode six. Episodes 162 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: one through five we break even six, seven and days 163 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: when we make money, so we need eight episodes. And 164 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I think I got six good ones, 165 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: and they're like, we need eight episodes. Do you find 166 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: that that's challenging for you in terms of when you 167 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: make films sometimes? And we try, honestly to push back 168 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: on that, because the last thing you know, you want 169 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: is to do a story that feels like it's run 170 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: out of gas and you just keep flogging it. So yeah, 171 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: sometimes we do get that, but then sometimes the algorithm changes, 172 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Like you know, some of the streamers are like, well 173 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: that's the way we used to think, and now now 174 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: it's back to five is the magic number or whatever? 175 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: You know, haven't you heard? And yeah, exactly, you clearly didn't. 176 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: The website you go to how many episodes this week? 177 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: It's far dot com right, Yeah exactly. Now you have 178 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: a great volume of work where you are developing material, 179 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: making films and series and so forth limited series with 180 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: some great, great writers, so great, I mean to just 181 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: keep you alone and Larry right, who I worship because 182 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: you worked with Larry before, and going clear Going Clear, 183 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: or in my trip to Al Qaida, and and also 184 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: obviously Looming Tower. So what was your first connection with Right? 185 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: Somehow we were put together on my trip to al Qaida, 186 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: which was a play that he had done about a 187 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: one man play that he started about the writing of 188 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: the Looming Tower. And we got together on that and 189 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: I did a doc about it. It's part half of it, 190 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: or a lot of it is the play itself. And 191 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: then we cut in and out of the play to 192 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: do various documentary thing and we got on really well, 193 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: and so then we were determined to do other stuff together. 194 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: You know, I have a kind of a shorthand I 195 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: think with writers because my dad was a journalist, and 196 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: that's the business I was supposed to go into. It 197 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: was around me all my life. So in my films, 198 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: well I make them consciously as films. They also they 199 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: have what I would call journalistic baggage. That is to say, 200 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: I'm really invested in in a journalistic aspect of them 201 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: that tries to get the facts right. But with somebody 202 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: like Larry Right, it's a similar process in terms of 203 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: the storytelling aspect of it. You know, at greater lengthen 204 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: the new Yorker pieces or in his books, which often 205 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: come out of his New Yorker pieces. There is at 206 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: once a kind of fact finding discipline and also a 207 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: storytelling discipline where you're trying to engage an audience to 208 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: come along this journey with you, and part of that 209 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: is investing in the propulsion of the narrative, which is 210 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that's storytelling, right. So Larry and I got 211 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: on really well because he's always talking about stuff like 212 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: that and and devices that he uses in his writing 213 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: and and so ongoing. Clear that was maybe the biggest 214 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: collaboration we had in terms of impact. The Leoming Tower 215 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: was also, you know, had pretty broad reach. When you 216 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: do a Crime of the Century. When you do with 217 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: something with HBO, the budgets pretty high, correct, it is, 218 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: relatively speaking. Relatively speaking, though, and on this one it 219 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: it got a lot higher than the original budget because 220 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: our original deal with HBO said we were going to 221 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: do a two hour film, and then when we showed 222 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: them the material, they said, well, this is clearly you know, 223 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: going over the bounds of the two hours, you've got 224 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: much more material than that, and they let us expand 225 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: it to a four hour and in the case of 226 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: Crime of the Century. I mean, to be honest with you. 227 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: We actually started out working with the Washington Post. There 228 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: were some journalists There's Scott Higham and Lenny Bernstein and 229 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: others who had first made me kind of aware of 230 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: the breadth of this story. And along the way, you know, 231 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: I decided they had were focusing mostly post Sackler, and 232 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I decided I really needed and wanted to tell the 233 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: Sacular part of the story to get the breadth of it. 234 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: And that's what led me to Patrick, And in fact, 235 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: Patrick and I ended up teaming up on not only this, 236 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: but also a scripted version of the Sackler story called 237 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: pain Killer, which is going to start shooting later this fall. 238 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: When you're working on the Sacular story as well as 239 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: perhaps other stories, is there ever a fear of litigation? 240 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: I mean, talk about a deep pockets opponent off you 241 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: wind up getting litigated. Were you're afraid that they would 242 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: suit you? Yes, And that's why the reporting has to 243 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: be really good. And I give a lot of credit 244 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to HBO for being really rigorous about that. But once 245 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: you have the facts right, being very brave, I mean 246 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: I learned that on Going Clear. You know, there were 247 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: a lot of lawyers attached to that film, but we 248 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: were very good about getting our facts right. And it's 249 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: not only the stuff that's in but the reporting that 250 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: surrounds it. That's what gives you the foundation to put 251 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: some of the stuff you put in the film. And 252 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: so with Patrick, because we were working in different media, 253 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: we were able to share things that we might not 254 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: otherwise have shared. If he was, say, another filmmaker, and 255 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: he would give me some documents, I would give him 256 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: some documents. And also we could geek out with each other. 257 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're deep into a project like this, 258 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: very few people, particularly significant others, want to hear from 259 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: you about the arcana of the opioid crisis. You know, 260 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: it's like okay, Han, that's enough. You know, we've got 261 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: embedded in your wife's like honey, what's wrong? And like 262 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: look at the molecular structure of this active ingredient. Look 263 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: at this molecule. Have you ever seen a molecule? Now? 264 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: But when you're doing these projects you talked about all 265 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: the lawyers attached to Going Clear. We were talking before 266 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: about how the early days for you because you work 267 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: so much in unearthing truth and facts and there's a 268 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: journalistic stripe to what you do that you've got a 269 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: staff of people doing research and maybe you have a 270 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: part time lawyer. I'm kind of joking here, and now 271 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: your company, the difference is you've got a lot more 272 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: people on the payroll doing research. You have ten lawyers 273 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: on the payroll. You know what I mean? Like, do 274 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: you need more of everything to get the facts clear? 275 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: You know, we don't operate the company that way. And 276 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: and actually while we started to veer in that direction, 277 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: I think we're going back to baseline to be a 278 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: little bit more entrepreneurial. What we do is try to 279 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: set it up more as units, you know, try to 280 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: function not as a machine or a factory, but more 281 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: like a studio where each film or series has its 282 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: own people and and it's a small but dedicated group, 283 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: and attached to them are are sometimes lawyers we frequently 284 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: work with, and sometimes journalists we frequently work with, but 285 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: they're attached to that particular project. So each one is bespoke, 286 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: it's has its own DNA, and that tends to work 287 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: out better because sometimes these things take a long time, 288 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: like Crime of the Century took close to three years 289 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: to do with a small group that really gets intensively 290 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: into the subject. That's what allows it to happen, rather 291 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: than a kind of big machine which attempts to crank 292 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: these things out. They can't be cranked out because the 293 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: rhythm of them sometimes depends on when you get documents 294 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: or when you get people to talk at the pace 295 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: of their own. But I'm even talking about the creative 296 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: DNA biology of the project to project. I'm just talking 297 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: about resources in terms of when you're first starting out, 298 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: you might not have everything you need. And as you 299 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: become this phenomenally successful filmmaker, one thing it affords you 300 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: to do is to have more people come on and 301 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: do more research and deepen your research, and have more 302 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: legal help to protect you. Now, you know, I was 303 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: in Sundance. I saw you there. I went to the screening, 304 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: and uh, I'm in that rarefied position where I'm friends 305 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: with Tom. I mean he's he's a friend in terms 306 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: of my career. You know, we don't see each other 307 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: for long periods of time where we pick up where 308 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: we left off. He had me come into a couple 309 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: of smaller parts and two am I movies and so forth. 310 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: And I've often speculated and I even wrote in my memoir, 311 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: So I thought, what was it? What did he need 312 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: this involvement in this organization, in this uh, in this faith, 313 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it. What did he 314 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: need it for? I wasn't quite sure what its purpose was. 315 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: You know, he has everything, you know, wealth and fame 316 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: and legacy and the respect of the community. He has 317 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: everything you could possibly imagine in a career as as 318 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: as a movie star. So what did this add to 319 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: his life? And I I speculated about that in my book. 320 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: I came up with an answer. But when you were 321 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: doing Going Clear, the scientology community, which is diverse, I 322 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: mean there's different people. Was not all just Tom incorporated maybe, 323 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: but all those people have been able to in some 324 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: way chew away any real close examination. And when I 325 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: watched your movie, I was mildly taken aback by how 326 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: deep you got. Your film was among the first people 327 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: from a major filmmaker to say that the the institution 328 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: is guilty of certain abuses. I mean they abuse people. 329 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: Their attitude to me was always like, hey, man, we're 330 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: not hurting anybody. You know, we manipulate people, no more 331 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: or no less than U S military recruitment companies, do 332 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, we have a certain kind of 333 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: a thing we do to get people to want to 334 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: join and sign up with us, but no one's being 335 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: abused or hurt. And you and what was the genesis 336 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: of that movie? Why did you decide you wanted to 337 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: go further and look into that even further. You know 338 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: what's interesting about that is that I had been offered 339 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: to do that movie any number of times, and I 340 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: had always turned it down because I always felt it 341 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: was too fringed. There weren't that many scientologists in the 342 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: world as opposed to say, the Roman Catholic Church. I 343 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: did a film about the church. Coincidentally or not, two 344 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: weeks after it premiered, the pope resigned. So um, you know, 345 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: I was familiar with deep seated religious organizations and also 346 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: you know the pushback you can get. But in the 347 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: case of Going Clear, it was Larry who convinced me. 348 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: Larry Wright who convinced me to take it on. There's 349 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: a phrase in his you know, subhead of his book 350 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: is the prison of belief, And that idea was really 351 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: interesting to me because then it was a deep dive 352 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: into scientology and indeed, the abuses of scientology. I mean 353 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: that that's the reason to be concerned, is that the 354 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: prison of belief leads to real human rights abuses. But 355 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: the other reason I was interested in it is because 356 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: people like to demonize scientologists as crazies, and the prison 357 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: of belief allowed me to put scientologists in a mainstream 358 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: tradition of how people invest or get lost in a 359 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: prison of belief, whether it be religious belief or political belief, 360 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: and can't get out even though the bars of the 361 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: cell are open. So that's what really motivated me to 362 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: get there. And then as we dug in, we took 363 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: testimony and checked facts and found out stuff that other 364 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: people hadn't found out before. And and I actually had 365 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: a pretty big impact on the Scientology community itself. There 366 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who either left the church 367 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: or who as ex members of Scientology, suddenly felt empowered 368 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: to speak up in a way that they hadn't been 369 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: able to do so before. Because because Scientology using its 370 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: threat of litigation, because they had launched the maybe the 371 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: most expensive lawsuit ever against the media company when they 372 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: went after Time Warner, you know, people were afraid. And 373 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: HBO was incredibly impressive in terms of its ability to 374 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: back us up once we convinced them that we had 375 00:19:54,920 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: the goods. Filmmaker Alex Gibney. One person who never sought 376 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: risk free entertainment was Sheila Nevins. As the head of 377 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: HBO documentary Films from nineteen seventy nine until her retirement 378 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen, Nevin's laid the groundwork for our 379 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: current golden age of documentaries. However, when she started in 380 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: the early eighties, HBO wouldn't even use the word documentary. 381 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: When we did promos for films, we would call them docutainment. 382 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: We invented this luetic word because we're afraid that if 383 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: we said documentary, people would feel that it was for 384 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: the elite and that it was about politics, and that 385 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: it was not going to be about human stories. And 386 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: so we we hid behind this word docutainment. And then 387 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: slowly but surely it took a good years we began 388 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: to say, well, maybe it's not such a dirty word, 389 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: and reality programming sort of said real people can be 390 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: interesting in a trivial way. So then somehow it went docutainment. 391 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Reality TV yea documentary, go for it, say that real people, 392 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: people without celebrity, people who are trying to survive in 393 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: a complicated world, saying their own words and say it 394 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: in their own words. To hear more of my two 395 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen conversation with Sheila Nevans, go to our archives 396 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: and Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Alex 397 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: Gibney talks about his first job out of film school, 398 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: cutting trailers for exploitation films. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're 399 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. Alex Gibney has said he 400 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: inherited some of his anti authoritarian ways from his family. 401 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: His father was a journalist who specialized in the culture 402 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: and policy of postwar Japan. His mother founded the health 403 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: education department at Boston's Children's Hospital. His parents divorced when 404 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: Alex was young, and when he was a teenager, his 405 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: mother remarried a champion of civil disobedience. My mom in 406 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: ninety eight fell in love with William Sloane Coffin Jr. 407 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: He was at the time being tried for conspiracy with 408 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: Dr Spott and Austin, and she had known him from before, 409 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: and he was a very charming and charismatic guy, and 410 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: he wooed her and they ended up getting married and 411 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: we moved to New Haven when I was I think 412 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: a junior in high school, and ultimately I did go 413 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: to Yale from And was it filmmaking? I mean, what 414 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: was the first time you picked up a camera as 415 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: a child. Were you interested in filmmaking as a child. 416 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Were you a huge filmgoer. I was into it as 417 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: a kid, and I was always into cinema. But the 418 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: thing that I think really changed me or turned me 419 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: around were these great film societies at Yale, and there 420 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: was there was always an interesting film on every night. 421 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: You know, this is pre video, so you you go 422 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: to these film societies and sit and watch and and 423 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: at the time, documentaries and fiction films were distinctions, weren't made. 424 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't like one was up and one was down. 425 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: They were all interesting. And I can remember you know 426 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: too in particular that really floored me. One was Gimme 427 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: Shelter by the Mazel's Brothers, you know about the Rolling Stones, 428 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: And the other was Exterminating Angel by Louis Bunuel, and 429 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: I thought, wow, you know, the possibility for expression in 430 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: this medium is so enormous. So that's when I started 431 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: to veer away from what my dad had in mind. 432 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: For me, which was to be a print journalist. Did 433 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: you seriously? I did? I did. But he lived in 434 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: Japan for a lot of his life, and I was 435 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: studying Japanese literature at the time, which meant I was 436 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: like head buried in these endless character dictionaries. I started 437 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: to veer away and and found my own direction. But 438 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: he really wanted me after college to go and take 439 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: the interviews at Time Life Newsweek, you know, and and 440 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: and go into family business, which is what he had done. 441 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: What did you study of Yale Japanese literature? Yeah, and 442 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: I'm impressed because of all the Japanese documentaries you've made. 443 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: It's incredible. Well, I did study under Donald Ritchie, the 444 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: great Japanese film critic who knew so much about court Sawa. 445 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: And I'll give you one. I'll give you. I can 446 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: do one film quote in Japanese, which is Chiotto's it. 447 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: And that's uh, that's the end of your Jimbo. He says, 448 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: I'll wait for you at the gates of hell. Oh 449 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: my god, my god. Now when you know when you 450 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: make it. So you're studying Japanese literature, and yeah, you're not. 451 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: You're making films at the same time I did, Uh, 452 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, I was studying film with a famous documentary 453 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: named Murray Learner. He did a lot of those docs 454 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: about the Newport jazz and folk festivals and that in 455 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: store from now teaches at Colombia, and so she was 456 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: she was one of my advisors. I mean she was 457 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: very young then, as as we all were. So I 458 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: was studying film and and ultimately towards the end of 459 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: my sojourn there, I was starting to to to move 460 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: into that territory. And then I went to u c 461 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: l A Film School. So so you go to graduate 462 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: school and and how many years you were you in 463 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: l A. Well, I ended up staying in l A 464 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: for a good many years, like twelve thirteen years. But 465 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: and I never actually finished u c l A. That 466 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: they're happy to claim you cling me to their bosom now, 467 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: But I loved it there. I just I got a 468 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: job with the Samuel Goldwyn Company at the time, and 469 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: I started doing things like cutting exploitation trailers. What exploitation 470 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: trailers did you cut? Oh? There was one called my 471 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: favorite was one called shock Waves. It was a film 472 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: about mutant Nazis who come up from the ocean floor 473 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: that's where they went to a secret cat underwater cavern. 474 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: They manufactured a group of mutant Nazis that couldn't be killed, 475 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: and their ships sank somewhere in the Caribbean, and then 476 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: one day a fishing boat happened to dislodge it, and 477 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: up they came out out from the water that I 478 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: thought they were in Buenos Aires. Peter Cushing. Peter Cushing 479 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: was in it. Peter Cushing was in it. Brooke Adams 480 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: was in it. There's a there's a line that caused 481 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: them as a TOTN call death call creatures, small horrible 482 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: sent any you can imagine. Oh god. That was a 483 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: documentary about that. Well. The other trailer I did was 484 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: for it was for a TV trailer I think for 485 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: the First Assault on Precinct thirteen. And there was one 486 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: the Nicholas Meyer Rock called Invasion of the b Girls. 487 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: These were women who were half human, half b and 488 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: when they'd have sex with you, they'd sting you to death. 489 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: I know that woman, I know her. Yeah. I went 490 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: out with her a few times. Yeah I got I 491 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: got out on stage, but she tried and tried her best. 492 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: Now I had a small part in Looming Tower I 493 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: was very grateful to come and work with you guys, 494 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: and I understand you're doing more of that. Correct, You're 495 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: gonna be doing more narrative work. Yes, with luck, that's 496 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: gonna I'm doing a feature this coming year, and this 497 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: is one that's a real passion project. It's a story 498 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about for a long time and it 499 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: took a long time to get the script right. But 500 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to doing it. And a guy 501 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: named Matt Cook he wrote a Patriots Day which was 502 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: directed by Peteburgh, but interesting to me, he was a 503 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: in the infantry in Iraq and this is ah, this 504 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: is very much of a war story. It's actually Vietnam War, 505 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: and it's what it's really about is how hard it 506 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: is to be a hero. And with Looming Tower, what 507 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: was your input into that? I mean, you know, Larry 508 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: Danny Futterman and I were um, you know, co conspirators 509 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: early on in terms of coming up with the kind 510 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: of the overall concept because Looming Tower is a vast book, 511 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: and so how to contain it and how to focus it, 512 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: And we decided to focus it on this battle between 513 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: the FBI and the CIA in the run up to 514 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: nine eleven, and to focus on to Harraheem's character. Uh, 515 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: you know, Ali Soufan is the guy in which he 516 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: was based in and Jeff Daniels character John O'Neill, and 517 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: obviously you know, I mean you played George Tennant, who 518 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: was a critical character in this battle between the FBI 519 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: and the CIA. In terms of the overall conceit, I 520 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: had a lot of input. I think that it's fair 521 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: to say that Danny and I had some creative differences 522 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: on it, and I want some and lost others, but 523 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: that's the way things go. Now. There was some talk 524 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: about another season of that then that didn't happen. Did 525 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: you realize that that was the right thing to come 526 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: about or were you disappointed that there wasn't another season 527 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: of that? I was hugely disappointed. I really think there 528 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: could have been a great one. And in fact, out 529 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: of that, I'm now doing a dock which tells part 530 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: of that story that I really wanted to tell in 531 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: season two, because you know, when we originally came up 532 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: with the concept, we had a notion for season two 533 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: and then season three, and for a lot of reason, 534 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: seasons who didn't happen, So so I'm I'm just in 535 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: the process of finishing because it's the twentieth anniversary of 536 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: nine eleven, so I'm just in the process of finishing 537 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: something that leans in to sort of the next chapter 538 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: because Ali Soufan goes on and he ends up interrogating 539 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: the first high value detainee as a member of the FBI. 540 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: But that's that detainee ends up being the for the 541 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: patient zero, the CIA's Torture Program filmmaker Alex Gibney. If 542 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure 543 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: to follow Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, 544 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we 545 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: come back, Alex Gibney talks about what he learned early 546 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: in his career from working on a series about the 547 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: Blues with Martin Scorsese. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening 548 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing. Alex Gibney is known for his 549 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: films that challenge trenched power, but he also has a 550 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: deep catalog of work featuring musicians from an early blues 551 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: series with Martin Scorsese to Jimmy Hendricks, James Brown, The Eagles, 552 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: The Rolling Stones, and Frank Sinatra. When Gibney is working 553 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: with a subject as lionized as Sinatra, I wondered, is 554 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: there an expectation he'll put a shine on their legacy? 555 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: Trust me, as the Sinatra family will tell you about 556 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: some of the conversations we had. They weren't always pretty. 557 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: They were of the opinion that I didn't shine the 558 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: statue enough, though I think I think Tina over time 559 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: came to to become a much bigger believer in in 560 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: in what we had done, even though she was that 561 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: skeptic going in. So you know, I had editorial control 562 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: so I could do what I wanted. I was focused 563 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: in this film, though a little bit more on Sinatra 564 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: the musician and as kind of Gatsps character who kind 565 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: of represented both the American dream him in the American Nightmare. 566 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: And that to me was was interesting because because I 567 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: have to be honest, I mean, Frank Marshall was the 568 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: one who who encouraged me to take this project on, 569 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: and I was not a big Sinatra fan. I knew 570 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: him as kind of the guy who you know, hung 571 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: around with Spiro Agnew and I wasn't that interested, but 572 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: I became, you know, in doing the film, which is 573 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: one of the great things about doing docs. You become 574 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: curious and you learn about a subject. I became a 575 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: huge admirer of his in terms of his ability to 576 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: tell stories in three minutes through his voice, but also 577 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: the tension, the rough and tumble tension between where he 578 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: came from and and where he was ending up. And 579 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, we could have we've gone deeper into the 580 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: Mabvia's up probably, and but I think that there was 581 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: enough there to give you a sense of what was 582 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: going on, and that it wasn't like we skipped it. 583 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: And I think also the other thing that was tricky 584 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: about him was his romantic life, which I think we 585 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: we did a pretty good job of dealing with. The 586 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: one woman who completely flummoxed him. Um av A Gardner. 587 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: So Ava Gardner, I mean, I'm a fool to want you? 588 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: Is the one song Frank Sinatra wrote, Uh, maybe he 589 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: wrote two, but that was the most famous one. And 590 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: and she kicked his ass, Ava Gardner did. And and 591 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: then he turns around and does this terrible thing to 592 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: me a pharaoh, which we chronicle in the film, where 593 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: he basically serves divorce papers honor or has his lawyer 594 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: served divorce papers on her while she's on the set 595 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: of Rosemary's Baby, and then she went on to point 596 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: out that Rosemary's Baby out grossed his film that was 597 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: released at the same time, that she made sure he 598 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: knew that, so anyway, that that was a great experience though, 599 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: and and a lot of people have come to me 600 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,719 Speaker 1: about that film, and it's become one of the films 601 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: of mine that people like an awful lot. I loved it, 602 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: loved it, and and only highlighted my point that him 603 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: in this work that I've done, I mean, I did 604 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: a podcast. We've done this for now nine or ten years, 605 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: and I love doing this because of my just my curiosity. 606 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: And if there's one person, I mean, I'd probably write 607 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: him a check for a million dollars to sit down 608 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: and do the show with me, it would have been Sinatra. 609 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: And that's the thing that's always so agonizing about the 610 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: world we live in now, where people are not not 611 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: so much expected, but they're allowed in a way. People 612 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: have much more of an expectation of you being more 613 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: forthcoming about the challenges and the struggles of that kind 614 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: of work. And I thought to myself, God, wouldn't have 615 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: been great to get Sinatra on film and do a 616 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: real interview that wasn't Larry King or some of that 617 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: other crap, you know, to really make him sit down. 618 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen I did you ever 619 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: see an in depth interview with Sinatra where he really 620 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: even touched on his pain, and I think he was 621 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: a guy in a lot of pain. He was. And 622 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that we got that was so valuable. 623 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: I mean, not only did we get this sixteen millimeter 624 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: film of his first retirement concert in which we kind 625 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,719 Speaker 1: of used as a structure to tell the story of 626 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: his life, but the more important thing we got were 627 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: a couple of audio taped in reviews that were done 628 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: at great length because part of the problem with most 629 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: TV interviews, particularly back in the day, they were either 630 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: rolling these huge video cameras where you're having to sit 631 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: under these massive lights and everyone's sweating, or their film 632 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: cameras and you're changing the magazine, you know, every twelve minutes. 633 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: With audio, you could really have a conversation, which is what, 634 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: of course I try to do when I'm doing my interviews, 635 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: to just have a conversation rather than ask questions, and 636 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: it was those interviews with Sinatra, the audio taped interviews, 637 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: which I think he was doing to explore whether or 638 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: not he might want to do, you know, an autobiography. 639 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: Those are the gold for us because they were very candid, 640 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: as well as a few sort of off the cuff 641 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of Q and A sessions he did, including one 642 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: he did at Yale, which was wildly fun, you know 643 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: because when you got him in a moment where he 644 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: didn't feel he wasn't kind of prethinking his answers, he 645 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: was gold and you could feel his pain, his ambition, 646 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: his passions. It was. It was great and and he's 647 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: his sort of profane reactions to everything around him. Now, 648 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: I want to imagine, as silly as this is, that 649 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: Alex Gibney is collaborating with Marty Scorsese and they're on 650 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: the set together shooting something and Alex Gibney says, don't 651 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: put the camera there, Marty, Why would you put the camera? How? 652 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: What's that collaboration? Like? It was a producer on a 653 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: series called The Blues, which he was the executive producer on, 654 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: and that was Marty Show. So he's a genius, and 655 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: so my job on that series was to lay out 656 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: the bats and balls so that players could play. That 657 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: was my job, and the glory of that was that 658 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: it really started my career in a way because it 659 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: was like watching men at work. Now in that case, 660 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: they were all men. There were no women. But you know, 661 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: between Marty who directed a film, Clint Eastwood of Invendor's 662 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: Antoine Fuqua, Charles Burnett, I got an up close seat 663 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: to watch them all work in this nonfiction arena, but 664 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: nevertheless giving it a personal take, so that these were 665 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: authored works in nonfiction. It changed my life and my career. Now, 666 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: for you, do you tend to be with the same 667 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: group of people shooting, you have a you have a 668 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: crew that you prefer, or have you mixed it up 669 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: with the people you've used for your cinematic crew. Well 670 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: I mixed it up a lot. But there's one woman, 671 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: Marie's Alberti, who shot. She shot the wrestler, she shot Creed, 672 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: but she also shot Enron Taxi to the dark Side 673 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: and others and Armstrong laws. She was a key collaborator 674 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: for me early on because she took a weakness of mind, 675 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: which was cinematography and visualizing the frame. I came up 676 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: as an editor and really expanded my horizons in that area. 677 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: She's an extraordinary talent because you bridged the worlds of 678 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: documentary and fiction. So Marie's the key collaborator for me 679 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: for a long period. She was also did a bunch 680 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: of Going Clear as well. But then the editors have 681 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: been I've been just blessed. I mean, and those people 682 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: I tend to go back to over and over and 683 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: over again, Alison Lwood, Andy Grieve, Sloan Clevin, Mikey Palmer. 684 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: What about music score? Music score, I've used a bunch 685 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: of different people, but I keep coming back to the 686 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: same ones. And I kind of cast composers depending on 687 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: the project. I've a guest and Robert Logan, you know, 688 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: I used them on Taxi to the Dark Side, but 689 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: also Robert has kind of Eastern European background, so on 690 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: Citizen K this one about Russia, I used them and 691 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: he was magnificent. And then Will Bates I've used quite 692 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: a bit, who's really an extraordinary talent. And also Pete 693 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: Michelle who did Client nine. So I do like using 694 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: the same person, but it feels almost like casting for 695 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: some of these films. I know composers all like to 696 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: feel like they can do anything, and they're probably right, 697 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: but you know, I kind of cast them depending on 698 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: what the film is about. Will Bates did a magnificently 699 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: creepy score with the theorem in that wonderful weird instrument 700 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: for Going Clear, which I found tremendously useful. Now people 701 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: view you, I mean, you're heading off, it seems like 702 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: into a more dedicated period of making narrative films. But 703 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: people view you as a great truth seeker. You know, 704 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: you want to go out and I don't want to 705 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: say catch the bad guy. I don't want to make 706 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: it like as a prosecutorial, but exposing abuses of power 707 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: seems to be a really in my mind, that obviously 708 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: potent theme in the work you do. Does it have 709 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 1: a fade or are you like you describing the chemical 710 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: molochist or what right as you see? Are you still 711 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: walking on the beach of vacation and you're looking at 712 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: phone going God, damn it, I can't believe these people? 713 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: Did you know? Is outrage and indignation follow you everywhere 714 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: you go? I'm afraid so uh, and I wish it 715 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: wouldn't And you outline my vacation. I'm about to go 716 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: on a vacation for two and a half weeks, and 717 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll be consumed with the issue of torture 718 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: when I should just be keeping my lobster claw and butter. Right, 719 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: give me three docks that you wish you made. You 720 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 1: mentioned give me shelter, which I love. That's one when 721 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: we were kings and waltz withold The sheer stories we 722 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: tell would be another one. It's not really my style, 723 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: but I love it, absolutely love it. I turned to 724 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: some people from the Hampton's Film Festival and I said, 725 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: let's show a doc I found out that Albert Mazls 726 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: was visiting his daughter in sag Harbord that weekend, and 727 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: I said, I want to screen a film in the 728 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: dead of winter. And they said, no one's gonna want 729 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: to come and watch a documentary film at Bay Street 730 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: in February. I said, you watched. I said, everybody's looking 731 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: for an excuse to get the f out of their house. 732 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: We showed gimme shelter. Brian Cosgrove, my friend who's a 733 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: DJ out here at the local radio station, Big Rock 734 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 1: and Roll of the Nut Uh, and we contact Mazel's 735 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: and he comes and does the Q and a afterward, 736 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: we packed the whole place. Two people came and we 737 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: showed this movie, and people literally got a contact high 738 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: watching Altamont, and it was like, what a great vibe, 739 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: so fantastic. And two things I always stunned me when 740 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: I watched the film. First of all, it's a cinema 741 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: verite murder mystery, and one of the directors is less heralded, 742 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: Charlotte's Wearing, who's the editor, and she put the structure 743 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: together magnificently, so it plays like a murder mystery. The 744 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: other thing that's interesting is a lot of that film 745 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: is about listening and watching, and you wouldn't think that 746 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: that would be important, but that scene where they're all 747 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: listening to wild horses is just an exquisite scene. And 748 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: then the scenes where they're watching the footage at altamount 749 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: and realizing their complicity and the violence, those are magnificent scenes, 750 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: and you they're just so counterintuitive and and testify to 751 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: the kind of poetry that the Mazal's brothers and in 752 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: this case Charlotte's Wearing, we're really into, and that that 753 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: film just deserves to be seen over and over and over. 754 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 1: I love that moment where like you said, they're listening 755 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: to Wild Horses, and they're listening to their radio show. 756 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 1: And Charlie Watts says, after Sonny Barger is yapping about 757 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: the angels and their mantle and what they need to do, 758 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: and Charlie, Charlie watsays, right on, Sonny, you know they're 759 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: all they're all just so overwhelmed wondering how much how 760 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: much gas did they throw on the fire. Well, let 761 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,839 Speaker 1: me just say this. I mean, I'm obviously a boundless 762 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: admirer of yours. You're one of the great filmmakers of 763 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: the last fifty years. You've made so many great, great, 764 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: fascinating and significant and important and entertaining documentary films. So 765 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: I hope when you go on your trip you'll put 766 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: the phone in a drawer and and but take it 767 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: out for the last couple of days, because I want 768 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: you to be tortured and haunted for just the last 769 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: couple of days of the of the trip. I'm gonna 770 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: I want to get you back in the zone. I'm 771 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: with you, and and there's a woman who's very much 772 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: on your side who would agree. So I'm going to 773 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: do the very best I can to to hide the 774 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: phone under a rock for at least part of the trip. Yes, definitely, 775 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 1: my very best to you on all things. I loved 776 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: Crime of the Century. It was the idea that you 777 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: could see how much the government is for sale, is 778 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: to watch these people change laws and change legislation to 779 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: suit the purposes of these people in this industry. It 780 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: was absolutely numbing to me. That's one of the most 781 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: numbing parts of the film. Thank you, Alex. A great 782 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: pleasure talking to you, Alex Gibney. His latest film, The 783 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: Crime of the Century, about the opioid epidemic, is available 784 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: on HBO Max h I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing 785 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: is brought to you by My Heart Radio. We're produced 786 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Carrie Donny Hue and Zach McNeice. Our 787 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: engineer is Frank Imperial.