Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you hey there, Text Stuff listeners, This
Speaker 1: is Jonathan Strickland and I have got a request for
Speaker 1: all of you. Now, Chris and I have decided that
Speaker 1: we're going to try and experiment. We're doing our first
Speaker 1: crowd sourced episode of tech Stuff and we want to
Speaker 1: know what your pick is for the worst video game
Speaker 1: of all time. Now, nominations you can. You can make
Speaker 1: one nomination. You nominate one game, and you need to
Speaker 1: tell us the name of the game and the platform
Speaker 1: it was on. And it could be any platform. It
Speaker 1: could be an arcade game, it could be a PC, Mac, Xbox,
Speaker 1: PS three, Nintendo handheld console. It can be web based
Speaker 1: if you like. But just you let us know what
Speaker 1: the platform is so we can make sure we count
Speaker 1: that as the votes. So you can nominate your game
Speaker 1: either through email, which is tech Stuff at how stuff
Speaker 1: works dot com, or you can nominate through Twitter or Facebook.
Speaker 1: And we're gonna put a cut off date on this.
Speaker 1: I want to have the episode go up by the
Speaker 1: end of September of eleven. So let's say you need
Speaker 1: to get your nominations in by September eleven. So if
Speaker 1: you get those nominations into us, we will make sure
Speaker 1: we include those in the process and we will have
Speaker 1: an episode where we give you the worst video games
Speaker 1: of all time based upon the votes of our listeners.
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Can't wait to hear from you. Get
Speaker 1: in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how stuff
Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello again, everyone, Welcome to tech Stuff.
Speaker 1: My name is Chris Paulette. I am an editor at
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com and sitting across from me
Speaker 1: as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland. I always feel
Speaker 1: like somebody's watching me and I have no privacy. You know,
Speaker 1: I have to admit you rockwell. So, uh, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk today about anonymity and the web and its relationship
Speaker 1: with one another and how things have been changing over time.
Speaker 1: And this also ties a lot into a privacy in
Speaker 1: the web. In fact, the two are. These topics are
Speaker 1: all very closely related. But um it's It's been in
Speaker 1: the news a lot recently, and by recently I mean
Speaker 1: the summer of of two thousand eleven because of a
Speaker 1: couple of different things. First of all, a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, you had um me it was only a
Speaker 1: year ago, but you had Mark Zuckerberg say that the
Speaker 1: the whole notion of privacy was falling out of social norms,
Speaker 1: meaning that people today don't value privacy or don't think
Speaker 1: of privacy is something that's important the way that generations
Speaker 1: earlier had, you know, thought of the subject. So uh
Speaker 1: that that actually kind of explains a lot about certain
Speaker 1: things that Facebook has done over the past, where you know,
Speaker 1: it's all about sharing information, particularly information about yourself and
Speaker 1: the things you like to do and the places you
Speaker 1: like to go. And then you know, the the argument
Speaker 1: I think someone at Facebook would make is that the
Speaker 1: more you share, the more you're going to get out
Speaker 1: of that service. So if you do not share a lot,
Speaker 1: you won't really benefit from the service the way you
Speaker 1: do if you are someone who shares lots of stuff.
Speaker 1: Although even that, you know, we could anyone could tell
Speaker 1: you if they have a friend who shares absolutely everything
Speaker 1: that that can get old too. Yes. Sorry, look, I
Speaker 1: thought it was a particularly interesting bowl of oatmeal, so
Speaker 1: I shared it. Well, it's always nice to share oatmeal.
Speaker 1: I don't know, But all right, anyway, we're getting off track,
Speaker 1: because I mean I just go back to the Oatmeal
Speaker 1: Party where Josh Clark did that well anyway, So so
Speaker 1: Facebook's approach is saying that anonymity and privacy really kind
Speaker 1: of those are old ideas that that we're slowly seeing
Speaker 1: phase out. And then the other thing that kind of
Speaker 1: brought this into attention was a Google launching Google Plus,
Speaker 1: and we did that episode on Google Plus, that epic
Speaker 1: Google Plus episode. One thing we didn't really talk about
Speaker 1: that much was that Google Plus. You know, in order
Speaker 1: to have a Google Plus profile, you have to have
Speaker 1: a Google profile. In order to have a Google profile,
Speaker 1: it has to be a Google profile that's public because
Speaker 1: they eliminated all private Google profiles, and you had to
Speaker 1: have a name associated with that profile, and it didn't
Speaker 1: have to necessarily be your legal name, but it didn't
Speaker 1: have to be the name that you go by the
Speaker 1: most frequently. And so you would you know, I have
Speaker 1: to put a first name in a last name and
Speaker 1: make it make it a legitimate name if it were
Speaker 1: something that was clearly a handle or a nickname or
Speaker 1: just unusual had some odd characters in it, like not
Speaker 1: like you know, Alex from Clockwork Orange odd characters, but
Speaker 1: like symbols like at symbols or hashtags or things like that. Um,
Speaker 1: that Google would flag it and then Google would suspend
Speaker 1: your Google Plus account as a darn good thing that
Speaker 1: Prince decided to go back to being prints. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: he the web's over compared, if you ask Prince. So
Speaker 1: it's immaterial for this discussion. Yeah, irregardless, Um supposedly supposedly,
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, anyway, if you if you put these these
Speaker 1: symbols into your name, or you had some other weird
Speaker 1: name going in there, Google might flag your account and
Speaker 1: suspend it. Uh. They then later on kind of adjusted
Speaker 1: that a little bit where they would give you a
Speaker 1: warning saying you need to go into your Google profile
Speaker 1: and put in your actual name, and you could add
Speaker 1: in nicknames and stuff in another field called other names,
Speaker 1: but that the name associated with your profile would be
Speaker 1: your real name. Now, that brought up some some questions
Speaker 1: among a lot of users, and it ranges through the
Speaker 1: whole actrum. You've got the spectrum that includes people who
Speaker 1: are you know the Their argument is that, hey, I
Speaker 1: have made a a name for myself under this persona.
Speaker 1: It's like bran Yeah, a brand exactly. It's like a brand.
Speaker 1: So um, the example I used in my blog post
Speaker 1: was Dr Kiki of Dr Kiki Science. Yeah, she's she's
Speaker 1: a scientist. Um uh, and she is known as Dr Kiki.
Speaker 1: Her first name is I believe Kirsten. But but you know,
Speaker 1: she that's not what everyone knows her as. So she
Speaker 1: created a Google profile using Dr Kiki and um uh, yes,
Speaker 1: Kirsten Sandford. That's her name, Dr Kirsten Sandford. So she
Speaker 1: went she goes as everyone knows her is Dr Kiki,
Speaker 1: So that's what she created a Google profile as. But
Speaker 1: she her Google Plus profile was suspended because it did
Speaker 1: it violated the rules that Google had set up. And
Speaker 1: Google's argument was that he wanted to create a social
Speaker 1: network that would let people connect with folks they know
Speaker 1: and folks they know of easily, and that that if
Speaker 1: you start putting in handles and things and you're cloaking
Speaker 1: your identity, that's kind of antithetical to what Google meant
Speaker 1: Google Plus two be. The problem is that's not the
Speaker 1: way people use the web. You know, people use the
Speaker 1: web in all sorts of different ways. There are people
Speaker 1: who will use their own names as their handles. For example,
Speaker 1: I'm one of those people. I use my own name
Speaker 1: as my handle pretty much everywhere. And uh, the reason
Speaker 1: for that is so that I keep myself accountable for
Speaker 1: the things I say. It's a personal choice. I don't
Speaker 1: judge anyone else who goes by a handle. I totally
Speaker 1: understand that, and I think anonymity is an interesting and
Speaker 1: important issue. I just, for myself choose to use my
Speaker 1: own name because one, uh, that's kind of my brand.
Speaker 1: It's my name at this point, if I had gone
Speaker 1: by some other weird whacking, might probably be using that everywhere.
Speaker 1: But to you know, it's just again, it just keeps
Speaker 1: me responsible for the things I say. I'm less likely
Speaker 1: to say something really offensive or outrageous or just pigheaded
Speaker 1: because it's attached to my name, and I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: go onto some forum and and tell off the person
Speaker 1: who posted above me that they're a complete jerk and
Speaker 1: an idiot. And you know, I'm I'm less likely to
Speaker 1: do that. I still do it, I just don't do
Speaker 1: it as frequently as I would if I had. You know,
Speaker 1: you know, hamster Man seventy three was my handle, and
Speaker 1: no one knew that that was me, but we all
Speaker 1: know now well, I don't post under that handle anymore.
Speaker 1: You won't find those YouTube comments coming from me anymore. Buster. Yea,
Speaker 1: well it's funny. Um, you need to it's weird to
Speaker 1: put this in perspective. So you know, to some degree,
Speaker 1: I think online Mark Zuckerberg has a point. We've gotten
Speaker 1: to the point where we're interested in social networking. Um.
Speaker 1: We have business profiles on LinkedIn dot com. We've got uh, Facebook, Twitter,
Speaker 1: Google Plus and all the others for our social fun
Speaker 1: you know, our our informal networking, in some case business
Speaker 1: networking too. Um and And it's hard. It's when you've
Speaker 1: gotten used to the idea of the right to privacy,
Speaker 1: which um, you know here in the United States we
Speaker 1: have a certain expectation of personal privacy um and not
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true everywhere else in the world. But
Speaker 1: when you've established all these accounts and you say, no,
Speaker 1: I just want to be online and have my uh
Speaker 1: my ten family members and sixty friends and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's all I want on my account. I don't want
Speaker 1: everyone else to read my post. Why are you making
Speaker 1: them available? Um. The thing is, Mark has a point
Speaker 1: because if you you do have that right to privacy,
Speaker 1: but when you join Facebook, the point is to be
Speaker 1: social and you know, I don't want I'm of those
Speaker 1: people that would prefer to socialize with people I know
Speaker 1: in real life and not you know everybody online that
Speaker 1: I that I really don't know that well. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, if if I joined Facebook
Speaker 1: and I don't have you know, I have to play
Speaker 1: the rules, by the rules of Facebook, and if Facebook
Speaker 1: says on Facebook, you don't have the right to privacy,
Speaker 1: and to the same extent, I mean, you're you're everyone
Speaker 1: can see you. Now. You don't have to publish your
Speaker 1: stuff so that the world can read every single post
Speaker 1: you write, but everybody's gonna be able to see that
Speaker 1: you have a profile. And that's just the way it
Speaker 1: is on Facebook, And um, you know, I I see
Speaker 1: the annoyance, but I don't see why people get so
Speaker 1: very angry simply because you've you're you're agreeing to the
Speaker 1: terms of service for joining those accounts. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons I wasn't anxious to uh join Google
Speaker 1: Plus right away. It was because I realized that I
Speaker 1: was going to have to make my profile public and
Speaker 1: everybody was going to be able to see it was me,
Speaker 1: And um, you're allowed to use your nickname, because I mean,
Speaker 1: not only is that against the rules, but it also
Speaker 1: shows up against your account. So if I wanted to
Speaker 1: be Larry the Wonder Beagle, then all my email on
Speaker 1: Gmail comes from Larry the Wonder Beagle, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that because I keep in touch with you.
Speaker 1: You would essentially have to create a second Gmail account
Speaker 1: just for your Google Plus profile. In that case, what
Speaker 1: you could theoretically do, although you're again kind of skirting
Speaker 1: the rules there. Yeah, yeah, so I mean that's and
Speaker 1: it would be annoying because you'd always have to log
Speaker 1: out of one account and log into the other whenever
Speaker 1: you wanted to check your quote unquote real email. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a pain in the neck. But the
Speaker 1: thing is, and again, this has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the actual law. This has to do with the terms
Speaker 1: of service of the website you're using, and it is.
Speaker 1: It is frustrating, I admit, And you know, I think
Speaker 1: I think where a lot of the concern comes from
Speaker 1: is not just like I think there are some people
Speaker 1: who who agree, like, all right, I get it. If
Speaker 1: I want to be on blah blah blah, I have
Speaker 1: to play by their rules. Yeah, I think there is
Speaker 1: that the approach to eliminating anonymity entirely. They're they're worried
Speaker 1: about that being more of a broad approach to the
Speaker 1: web in general. Yeah, and I worry about that too. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's something that I'm not interested because because that would
Speaker 1: be let's let's say that Twitter made that same same
Speaker 1: decision that your Twitter handle had to be your first
Speaker 1: and last name. Now for me, it happens to be that,
Speaker 1: but a shortened version of my first name because Jonathan
Speaker 1: Strickland does not fit as a full Twitter handle. Um,
Speaker 1: so you know, Johnny Cakes, that's me. No, it's not,
Speaker 1: It's not really me anyway, So cake cake, I prefer
Speaker 1: pie pie anyway. If Twitter did that, then you know,
Speaker 1: you think about that there there we've seen Twitter being
Speaker 1: used in things like a political revolutions, you know, political unrest, turmoil, riots,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, protests, uh, situations where the people
Speaker 1: who are organizing it definitely would not want their their
Speaker 1: idea that he shared with the general public because it
Speaker 1: would put themselves in danger, physical danger, and it would
Speaker 1: it would help prevent them from doing the the political
Speaker 1: activist work they were trying to do, like if they
Speaker 1: were to post something and it was traced back to
Speaker 1: their identity, they could be you know, theoretically by by
Speaker 1: an oppressive government brought in. And then not only do
Speaker 1: you have a person brought in by the same government
Speaker 1: they were trying to protest, but whatever activities they were
Speaker 1: trying to organize have been, um, you know, have been
Speaker 1: somewhat well sidetracked, have been have been sabotaged exactly because
Speaker 1: you no longer have that anonymity. And so there is
Speaker 1: a definite place for anonymity on the web. So you
Speaker 1: here here, like, let's talk about some of the different
Speaker 1: arguments that people make for and against anonymity. Okay, so
Speaker 1: we've already covered one of them, which is that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to be able to connect with people,
Speaker 1: you need to be able to know who to look for.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of hard to look for someone if
Speaker 1: every one's using up fake names everywhere. So that's one
Speaker 1: argument against anonymity. Um another is another argument against anonymity
Speaker 1: is that, uh, making someone use their own name kind
Speaker 1: of the way I was explained my own personal approach,
Speaker 1: UH keep some somewhat accountable for their words and actions.
Speaker 1: So in other words, The idea is that if you
Speaker 1: make sure that people cannot be anonymous, you really cut
Speaker 1: back on trolling. That's that's ultimately what we get down to.
Speaker 1: So can you imagine what a place YouTube would be
Speaker 1: if everyone had to use their real names and like
Speaker 1: there was a way of really linking an account to
Speaker 1: an actual person as opposed to just a handle, because
Speaker 1: I mean, you look at some of the quotes on YouTube,
Speaker 1: and they are some of the meanest, nastiest, mean spirited
Speaker 1: stuff I've ever read anywhere, and just on a typical
Speaker 1: video even you know something that a video that has
Speaker 1: no objectionable material real in it, it's just silly, or
Speaker 1: it's or it's even you know, even if it's boring.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you get the nastiest responses. And so the argument
Speaker 1: is that, well, if you made sure that people could
Speaker 1: not be anonymous, couldn't hide behind a pseudonym or a handle,
Speaker 1: that they would be nicer. And that's probably true for
Speaker 1: most people, they would probably be nicer. I don't think
Speaker 1: that it would magically make the web a shiny, happy
Speaker 1: place and no one would ever disagree with anyone, and
Speaker 1: you would never have anyone call anyone else a hurtful
Speaker 1: name or anything that's naive that would still happen, but
Speaker 1: I think it would cut down quite a bit on
Speaker 1: the trollish behavior. But I don't know that the trade
Speaker 1: off is worth that, you know, So anyway, those are
Speaker 1: those are two arguments against anonymity. But one that we've
Speaker 1: mentioned already is what if you want to be able
Speaker 1: to protest something or to bring attention to an issue
Speaker 1: that could get yourself in trouble, um, just because of
Speaker 1: your circumstances. That's true, um, And there's a difference to
Speaker 1: I mean, we could take, uh, we could take specifically
Speaker 1: the the example of Google itself. So on the one hand,
Speaker 1: you've got Google Plus, which is a social networking service
Speaker 1: that is optional for you to join. You if you
Speaker 1: if you want to join the service. Currently as of
Speaker 1: the time we're recording this, you have to use your
Speaker 1: real name and that's up to you. You do not
Speaker 1: have to join Google Plus. Then you have Google street
Speaker 1: View on the other hand, and this um again, long
Speaker 1: term listeners will know that we've talked about this before
Speaker 1: on the on previous podcasts. So Google street View, the
Speaker 1: idea of being that Google is sending cars on driving
Speaker 1: around neighborhoods driving on city streets. Um. And basically they
Speaker 1: take pan panoramic photos of the streets so you can
Speaker 1: see I personally find it really helpful when I'm looking
Speaker 1: for a business that I've never seen before. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to get there and you can go look it up
Speaker 1: online and see a picture of what it looks like. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's the green building, and you can pan around and
Speaker 1: see what the surrounding buildings are and you you get
Speaker 1: an idea for the landmarks. Yes, it's it's it's really
Speaker 1: a neat idea. The concept on the table right there
Speaker 1: is a neat idea, especially when you apply to things
Speaker 1: like I want to take a virtual tour of a
Speaker 1: city I've never been in, and you could literally do
Speaker 1: that if you have a fast enough connection to the
Speaker 1: internet and a good processor, then yeah you can. You
Speaker 1: can you know, navigate through street view and go down
Speaker 1: streets in cities just as if you were there, um,
Speaker 1: without the like, you know, you can stroll down New
Speaker 1: York City at night without worrying about getting bugged. So
Speaker 1: I don't think would be at night, well no, but
Speaker 1: it would it would be kind of hard to see,
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, and there are. There are many funny
Speaker 1: stories about Google street View, the cameras getting knocked off
Speaker 1: by low bridges, and people doing crazy things. People hearing
Speaker 1: that street view was coming through, so they arrange for
Speaker 1: some sort of bizarre demonstration or sword fights, mooning, you know,
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. But the thing is to people
Speaker 1: complain that they're taking photos of their houses without any permission.
Speaker 1: It's an invasion of privacy. As the argument, yes, um,
Speaker 1: and so there you go. You you you know, suddenly
Speaker 1: your house is there and you can't opt out of it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know. Plus there are many many phone directories
Speaker 1: with with information in there. Uh they scrape phone books
Speaker 1: and you know, their of course legitimate phone books as
Speaker 1: well phone directories online. So if you put two and
Speaker 1: two together, you can figure out where somebody lives and
Speaker 1: what their house looks like. Yeah. Now, if you've if
Speaker 1: you've managed to stay unlisted and everything, then there may
Speaker 1: not be a connection between you the person and your
Speaker 1: wherever you call home. So but for the majority of people,
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you know, with a little snooping, you
Speaker 1: could easily figure out where someone lives. And then through
Speaker 1: street view you can see you can actually see their
Speaker 1: their house, which I mean, you know you can argue,
Speaker 1: well that let's let's uh potential thieves case the joint
Speaker 1: without ever leaving, um, leaving wherever they are. You know
Speaker 1: they can they can look it up and then get
Speaker 1: a real good view at least to the front of
Speaker 1: the house, maybe even the back of the house, depending
Speaker 1: on how your neighborhoods laid out. And you could use
Speaker 1: the satellite view in in one of the mapping services
Speaker 1: or in Google Earth to get an idea of the
Speaker 1: lay of the land. So it's yeah, it's one of
Speaker 1: those arguments where you make well, this this can make
Speaker 1: us less safe and and there that is a good
Speaker 1: argument for anonymity, saying that well, I understand that there
Speaker 1: are uses for this technology and that um that it
Speaker 1: can come in handy and it's a fun technology, but
Speaker 1: there are also some serious consequences or there can be
Speaker 1: serious consequences to enabling this technology and immediately opting everyone in.
Speaker 1: It's not like you had a choice as far as
Speaker 1: street view is concerned. I mean, there are some very
Speaker 1: famous cases of towns that the essentially told Google to
Speaker 1: go uh google themselves and get the heck out of Dodge,
Speaker 1: although Dodge was not one of those towns. M. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and some gated communities places like that. And course in
Speaker 1: in Europe, there have been many cases, um, in different
Speaker 1: countries in Europe where uh, you know, they they've taken
Speaker 1: Google to court and said, you do not have the
Speaker 1: authority to do this, um, you know, because it violates
Speaker 1: our country's privacy laws. So um, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's difficult, you know, on on, but it's there is
Speaker 1: a definite difference in um, you know, things like being
Speaker 1: signing up to be unlisted from your phone company and
Speaker 1: deciding to opt out of social networking services versus um,
Speaker 1: you know, what other people post about you online. And
Speaker 1: that's another thing too. You you can't control what other
Speaker 1: people do, um not yet, but I'm working on it.
Speaker 1: Why That's why I brought a crown in today. Yeah
Speaker 1: he did, right on the table right between us, right now. UM.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, you know, I've had pictures tagged
Speaker 1: on Facebook, um and you know, with my name on them,
Speaker 1: and I've kind to the point where I try to
Speaker 1: avoid having that done and I go and remove the
Speaker 1: tags simply because I'm less comfortable being public than other people,
Speaker 1: but I can't. I think there's this, Well I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure actually that Facebook has in its privacy settings a
Speaker 1: setting where you can go in and make sure that
Speaker 1: if someone wants to tag you in a photo, that
Speaker 1: it has that requests your permission before the tag goes public.
Speaker 1: So you can actually tweet that setting, although like all
Speaker 1: Facebook privacy settings, it's not the easiest thing to find.
Speaker 1: You have to kind of do a little digging. Um.
Speaker 1: Google Plus is is kind of the same way. In
Speaker 1: a sense, it's a lot easier to control who sees
Speaker 1: your information when you use Google Plus because you can
Speaker 1: just at every stage you can determine which bits of
Speaker 1: information are visible to others and which ones aren't and
Speaker 1: uh and you can specify you know, which users can
Speaker 1: see it, like a circle or just a specific user.
Speaker 1: But even so, it's it's still a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: to wade through, right, So another thing about well, another
Speaker 1: argument you can make against anonymity. We we've already touched
Speaker 1: on this about the trolling, but if you really want
Speaker 1: to see and I don't recommend you do this, but
Speaker 1: if you if you want to see what the power
Speaker 1: of anonymity, you can go to a uh community like
Speaker 1: community like four Chan. Yes, Now, four chan is we've
Speaker 1: talked about before. It's a it's a message board that
Speaker 1: allows you to post things anonymously. You don't have to
Speaker 1: create an account. You can create a handle and you
Speaker 1: can either use the same handle or you can use
Speaker 1: a different handle every time you log in if you
Speaker 1: want to. UM. Actually, that would probably make you less
Speaker 1: likely to be traced because you're using a different one.
Speaker 1: You're not creating an identity for yourself. Is there a
Speaker 1: spout to or just a handle? It's just a handle.
Speaker 1: It's actually two handles. I'm a sugar dish. Um. So
Speaker 1: the the idea here, but four chan is that you
Speaker 1: can share stuff without ever having to to link it
Speaker 1: back to yourself personally. And they actually have a couple
Speaker 1: of channing and not everything on four chan is is
Speaker 1: of objectionable material, right. Uh. There's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: on Fortune it's all about uh, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of its Japanese pop culture stuff, especially um manga and anime.
Speaker 1: But there are some channels in four chan, the random
Speaker 1: channel being the most famous channel where anything goes and
Speaker 1: people are using um anonymous handles in order to post stuff,
Speaker 1: usually in order to get a reaction out of other people, um,
Speaker 1: either to make them laugh or to shock them, or
Speaker 1: to discuss them or whatever. But it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: um about, it's about as close to chaos as I
Speaker 1: can think of really. Um. Not that it's not interesting
Speaker 1: or entertaining at times, but it's often very uh disturbing
Speaker 1: to look at. So you look at that and you say, well,
Speaker 1: if if maintaining anonymity on the web means getting this
Speaker 1: kind of reaction where you get the sort of of
Speaker 1: people trying to do whatever they can to get a
Speaker 1: reaction of other folks, that's an easy thing to point
Speaker 1: out and say, well, this is why we don't want anonymity, right.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's misleading because it's it's
Speaker 1: stating that just because you want to be anonymous, you
Speaker 1: want to cause trouble. And I think that's you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think you can draw that conclusion, but I
Speaker 1: think that that's something that a lot of people who
Speaker 1: argue against anonymity, Um, they will they will point their
Speaker 1: finger at places like or or sites like four chan
Speaker 1: and say well that's why. And I think that's shortsighted.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I just point to the political unrest
Speaker 1: and in places like Egypt or uh Libya, or Iran
Speaker 1: or Iraq, where you know, we've seen social networking come
Speaker 1: into play and help people, and say, well, this is
Speaker 1: where anonymity is really important. And without it, uh, it's
Speaker 1: possible that these people would have suffered more. It's possible
Speaker 1: that the world would have remained ignorant of what was
Speaker 1: going on for the most part because we would just
Speaker 1: get mainstream media coverage of whatever those events were. And either,
Speaker 1: you know, you can be cynical. You could say that
Speaker 1: mainstream media just doesn't do a good job of covering
Speaker 1: that kind of information, and you know, that's that's an
Speaker 1: argument for a different podcast. Or you could say that
Speaker 1: mainstream media does an okay job, we just have become
Speaker 1: very good at ignoring it, cynical in a different way.
Speaker 1: Or it could be a combination of the two. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm not arguing any of those things, of just saying
Speaker 1: that without that, you know, if we had had the
Speaker 1: social media, without the social media, we all we'd have
Speaker 1: is the mainstream media approach. With the social media, it
Speaker 1: tends to put up even when it's anonymous, it puts
Speaker 1: a personal spin on these stories that tend to hook
Speaker 1: us as human beings into them. Yeah, and and I
Speaker 1: think it's also important for us to touch on enforcement
Speaker 1: because you know, although Facebook and Google Plus are are
Speaker 1: currently requiring people to use, you know, a real name
Speaker 1: or at least the name they go by, um, no,
Speaker 1: I nobody's requiring a birth certificate. And even then, you know,
Speaker 1: a birth certificate could be faked. Um, let's not get
Speaker 1: into that. But I mean, yeah, I mean you could.
Speaker 1: You could doctor a document and send it into Facebook
Speaker 1: and say, hey, so nope, see that's r real name. Um,
Speaker 1: so you know, there there, nobody's actually doing that. And
Speaker 1: I know people who don't use their real names on Facebook.
Speaker 1: And for a while there they were removing people. I
Speaker 1: assume they probably still are. But I remember it being
Speaker 1: a big thing a while back, a few months ago,
Speaker 1: maybe a year ago, and I thought, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 1: my friend is going to have his profile removed. It
Speaker 1: never happened when it's clearly you know, he goes by
Speaker 1: a a band name, you know, the name of a
Speaker 1: character creative for the for a band that he's in.
Speaker 1: And it's like, uh, like the remote stage person. It's
Speaker 1: a stage persona and it's clearly not a name. Well,
Speaker 1: but you could clearly you could do that for a
Speaker 1: fan paget without any issue at all, But for a
Speaker 1: personal page that does tend to get a little like
Speaker 1: if people notice, they get or if people if if
Speaker 1: the company that is providing the service notices, you might
Speaker 1: have some issues. But some people with particularly unusual names
Speaker 1: I've been reading about Google Plus have had their profiles
Speaker 1: removed and actually it's their real name. Yeah, let's happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are some there's some fun names out there.
Speaker 1: I'm reminded of my my my sister's vet Dr Stacy Stacy.
Speaker 1: Seriously yep, Stacy Stacy. Interesting. Yeah, she says everything twice twice.
Speaker 1: Check the papers, check the papers. Um she's uh at
Speaker 1: any rate. Yeah, there there are issues where we see
Speaker 1: people who are legitimately following the rules, who being punished
Speaker 1: for not following the rules just because they happen to
Speaker 1: have an unusual name. Um, you're gonna fall find that
Speaker 1: pretty much in any kind of environment where they are
Speaker 1: requiring people to use real names. Just because you know,
Speaker 1: we're human beings. We come up with some interesting combinations
Speaker 1: for names. Sometimes we marry into them. Sometimes we just
Speaker 1: luck out and are born into them. Sometimes our parents
Speaker 1: have a cruel sence of humor. Moxi crime Fighter being
Speaker 1: a good one. Yeah, pen Gillette's daughter Moxi crime Fighter, Gilette,
Speaker 1: that's true. I'm not making that. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: have any doubts. And I remember some of the countries
Speaker 1: around the web Moon unit Moon unitz that. But that's
Speaker 1: what I meant. Yes, um, yeah, they yeah, they were.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing legislation in several countries where people were
Speaker 1: trying to name their kids things like Superman. Wow. Really
Speaker 1: um but but yeah, I mean, and it's very difficult
Speaker 1: to enforce that without requiring any kind proof, and so
Speaker 1: they're sort of going through and going, well, I'm that
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a real name, so you can go ahead.
Speaker 1: A lot of guesswork. So yeah, yeah, I'm sure that
Speaker 1: Google Plus I Google seems like one of those companies
Speaker 1: that's really eager to please, and I think I think
Speaker 1: there are cases like this is this is also an
Speaker 1: issue Google Plus runs into when it opens up a
Speaker 1: private beta and the there's a disproportionate number of people
Speaker 1: in the private beta who are public personas, especially in
Speaker 1: the tech world. Because you have people who are known
Speaker 1: by their brand. So Google Plus kind of brought in
Speaker 1: on themselves in this case. But at least they're learning
Speaker 1: this lesson very early on. Before it the recording of
Speaker 1: this podcast. They haven't gone open, they haven't opened up
Speaker 1: the social network yet, so hopefully this stuff will get
Speaker 1: ironed out so that, UM, if you do want to
Speaker 1: use a nickname or a brand or something as your persona,
Speaker 1: you should be able to. UM. There's been discussion at
Speaker 1: Google about finding ways of making that happen, although it
Speaker 1: may not. It may mean that you have to create
Speaker 1: a sort of profile that's not same as a personal profile,
Speaker 1: kind of like on Facebook where you have fan pages
Speaker 1: or group pages and then you have your personal pages. UM.
Speaker 1: I think yes, I think. The concern really I have
Speaker 1: is not um whether or not you could be anonymous
Speaker 1: on Google Plus or on Facebook or whatever. My concern
Speaker 1: is that you start to see the generation of movers
Speaker 1: and shakers in the web space, like the Mark Zuckerberg's
Speaker 1: of the web, who say that they think that privacy
Speaker 1: is no longer a social norm. That concerns me, And
Speaker 1: the reason that concerns me is because that means that
Speaker 1: if that if that attitude becomes prevalent throughout the web,
Speaker 1: then anonymity will become a thing in the past in
Speaker 1: all but the smallest niche communities. So that's really where
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, not so much in the specific cases of
Speaker 1: Google and Facebook, but in a more general web wide case.
Speaker 1: And will we see an anonymity get stamped out? I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think that will ever happen across the board,
Speaker 1: but I can certainly see privacy and anonymity taking kind
Speaker 1: of a uh diminished role in the future. Well, I, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I personally like to retain a great deal
Speaker 1: of my privacy. Um. But at the same time, I
Speaker 1: do think that anonymity can breed a sense of, um
Speaker 1: recklessness when when people are willing to say whatever they
Speaker 1: feel like they can get away with without any kinds
Speaker 1: of repercussion. And I don't I don't particularly approve of that. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, at the same time too, I think, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that we have all given up
Speaker 1: our privacy and this is just the way things are
Speaker 1: going to be also encourages people to share too much information.
Speaker 1: You know, Hey, I'm going out of town for two weeks.
Speaker 1: Look at this here, here are pictures of my trip
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, and then two posts later, oh,
Speaker 1: the police just called. Someone broke into my house. You know.
Speaker 1: I mean if if if you go, well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's all public anyway, who cares? Then you know you're
Speaker 1: I I think I don't think there's as much to
Speaker 1: discourage you from over sharing things that you shouldn't share. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and the Internet has made it so easy to
Speaker 1: share things as soon as you think of them that
Speaker 1: that's that's also an issue. Like the Google Plus setting
Speaker 1: for your phone that instantly uploads any photo you take. Yes,
Speaker 1: but you don't have to have those shared publicly. You
Speaker 1: don't have to. But if you don't, yes, um yeah,
Speaker 1: the yes is getting easier and easier for you to
Speaker 1: to upload your thoughts immediately to the Internet without filtering
Speaker 1: them first, which is why whenever I make my social network,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a little window pup ups that do
Speaker 1: you really want to post that? And when you click yes,
Speaker 1: do you really really want to post that? And then
Speaker 1: when you click yes, it it posts, and then at
Speaker 1: the very end it says if this is stupid, it's
Speaker 1: not because I didn't tell him, so well, that's that's
Speaker 1: why I started my own anti social network and I
Speaker 1: am I am the only member, right uh, and that
Speaker 1: is unlikely to change, right, It's just it's just it's
Speaker 1: just me. It's just a black web page. You go
Speaker 1: to the web page, there's nothing on it. It's just
Speaker 1: it's just black. Well, it saves me a lot of
Speaker 1: time because they don't have to check it very often. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. There is at the very bomb if you
Speaker 1: scroll all the way down and it's long, there's an
Speaker 1: under construction, the shovel digging with the hard hat. Because
Speaker 1: we're gonna bring geo cities back one web page at
Speaker 1: a time. Alright, So we're gonna wrap up this discussion
Speaker 1: on anonymity privacy in the web. Um, we want to
Speaker 1: hear what your thoughts are. What do you think do
Speaker 1: you think privacy and anonymity is that? Is that even
Speaker 1: at all important to you? Do you even think about it?
Speaker 1: Or is it just doesn't just sound like something that
Speaker 1: old people like like Chris and myself talk about, because
Speaker 1: it might very well be because we're old. Let us know.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook and Twitter are handled.
Speaker 1: There is text stuff hs W or you can see
Speaker 1: this email that addresses tex Stuff how stuff works dot com.
Speaker 1: Chris and I will talk to you again really soon.
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff
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